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CATFISH Drives Cross-Country to Murder Family & 'ROMANCE' Teen Girl · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: A family wiped out in their riverside, California home. Just
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Speaker 1: let those words sink in for a moment. A family
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Speaker 1: wiped out inside their home. A triple homicide, and I
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Speaker 1: don't know how to put this ugold be worse than
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Speaker 1: a triple homicide, but a triple homicide of an entire
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Speaker 1: family with a deeply twisted motive. I Nancy Grace, this
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Speaker 1: is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
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Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and Serious X one eleven. First of all,
0:52
Speaker 1: take a listen to this the details You'll make your
0:55
Speaker 1: heart sink. This is the home where it happened. It's
0:57
Speaker 1: still a crime scene. And the lady next store says
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Speaker 1: she was more like family than a nextdoor neighbor. She
1:03
Speaker 1: had actually just gotten the turkey out of the refrigerator
1:05
Speaker 1: and walked outside for a second, saw the smoke and
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Speaker 1: the flames coming out of the front of the house.
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Speaker 1: Mortified and horrified, she called nine one one. This son
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Speaker 1: of a he just has no clue what he took
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Speaker 1: away from this world. For more than twenty years, they
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Speaker 1: were next door neighbors and the best kind. Every neighborhood
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Speaker 1: needs a Winic family because they just were the all
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Speaker 1: American loven, caring, supporting family that you can ever ask for.
1:37
Speaker 1: You're hearing our friends at Fox eleven and what she
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Speaker 1: just said. Every lead I've got, every person that's been
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Speaker 1: spoken to, agrees it's the all American family, the kind
1:55
Speaker 1: on the front of the Hallmark card, scrubbed and sunshine.
1:59
Speaker 1: So why are they all dead in their homes? And
2:02
Speaker 1: to go another step, the home is set on fire.
2:09
Speaker 1: There's a lot of reasons that a home can be
2:11
Speaker 1: set on fire. To Daryl Cohen joining me, high profile
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Speaker 1: lawyer in the Atlanta jurisdiction, former felony prosecutor and one
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Speaker 1: of the biggest murder capitals in the country. Now private lawyer,
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Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, you and I have dealt with a lot
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Speaker 1: of homicides many I don't know how many homicides I
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Speaker 1: either investigated as we would do before we would ever
2:40
Speaker 1: dream of entering a guilty plea to trial, much less covered.
2:45
Speaker 1: But when you see a murder and the scene is
2:50
Speaker 1: set on fire, that tells me something that this perp
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Speaker 1: is different from every other killer. When you find down,
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Speaker 1: Daryl Cohen, that the purpose set the home on fire
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Speaker 1: in a lovely residential area, what does that tell you
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Speaker 1: before you even open the case file. Two words nancy,
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Speaker 1: cover up, Cover it up, hope that the fire and
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Speaker 1: the ashes take all of the evidence and put it
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Speaker 1: away where it's not going to be seen by law enforcement,
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Speaker 1: by arson investigators exactly. So you know immediately when somebody
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Speaker 1: sets the murder scene on fire, they are also staging. Now,
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Speaker 1: staging doesn't have to mean like in BTK, buying torture
3:35
Speaker 1: killed Dennis Rador. He was the dogcatcher, Okay, stright one,
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Speaker 1: he's a dogcatcher. He would see his victims, women girls
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Speaker 1: on his dogcatching route, would go back, rape, torture, murder them,
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Speaker 1: and then he would hang around the house because he
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Speaker 1: knew who would be coming home and when when would
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Speaker 1: the husband or the dad would be coming home from work.
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Speaker 1: He would stay in there and pose the victims. He'd
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Speaker 1: put makeup on them, He'd dressed them up in weird outfits.
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Speaker 1: He'd positioned their bodies. You know, Ted Bundy did that too.
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Speaker 1: He would bathe the dead victims and then do their
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Speaker 1: hair and makeup. That said, that's elaborate staging, but setting
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Speaker 1: the home on fire it's also staging. Anything a perp
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Speaker 1: does to the scene postmortem is staging, and it gives
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Speaker 1: us a window into who the perp might be. I mean,
4:36
Speaker 1: think about it. Detective Rich with Stocky joining me, President
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Speaker 1: of be Sure consulting thirty years in law enforcement, including
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Speaker 1: swat detective. Typically, when you kill somebody, you want to
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Speaker 1: get out of there. You don't want to be near
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Speaker 1: the dead body, you don't want to be the scene,
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Speaker 1: near the scene, you don't want to be seen, you
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Speaker 1: don't want to leave your fingerprints. But some perhaps stay
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Speaker 1: to stage the same. Have you ever seen that? What
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Speaker 1: does that say to you? Detective? Yeah? Absolutely. A lot
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Speaker 1: of times professional hitman will use this, but they'll do
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Speaker 1: a lot better job than this guy did. So three
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Speaker 1: dead bodies, the house going up in flames. Take a
5:20
Speaker 1: list of our friends at NBC four LA. Nobody could
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Speaker 1: imagine this crime happening to my family, to our family,
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Speaker 1: But the unthinkable did happen to Michelle Blanden's family. Her father,
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Speaker 1: Mark Winnock, mother Sherry, and younger sister Brooke. The last
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Speaker 1: time she saw them was on Thanksgiving. One day later, Mark, Sherry,
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Speaker 1: and Brooke were found dead inside the riverside home on
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Speaker 1: Price Court that Michelle grew up in. She was at
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Speaker 1: a store when a longtime friend and neighbor urgently called
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Speaker 1: her in a panic. She called to tell us that
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Speaker 1: we needed to get there as soon as we could
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Speaker 1: because my parents house was on fire Riverside police inside
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Speaker 1: her father, mother, and younger sister had been murdered. So
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Speaker 1: this girl gets a call to rush home that the
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Speaker 1: home is on fire. I've spoken to a lot of
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Speaker 1: arson victims, and there's something about the burning of your home.
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Speaker 1: Thank Heaven, I have not experienced that. I hope I
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Speaker 1: never do. But there's some feeling that goes through the
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Speaker 1: victim's hearts and minds and soul when they see everything
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Speaker 1: they own in the world and all their memories just
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Speaker 1: going up in flames. Little does this girl know that
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Speaker 1: when she gets back, it's not just the home that
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Speaker 1: she has lost. She has lost her family as well.
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Speaker 1: So why burn the place up to eradicate the evidence?
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Speaker 1: So why is it so important to get rid of
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Speaker 1: the dead bodies? What do we know about the victims?
6:55
Speaker 1: What do we know about this family? Is there something
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Speaker 1: nefarious going on with them? Is there something that neighbors
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Speaker 1: of twenty years somehow missed? Well, take a listen to this.
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Speaker 1: My sister Brooke was a loving single mom who did
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Speaker 1: her best to raise her two teenage daughters in a
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Speaker 1: loving way. My dad, Mark, the silly old man that
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Speaker 1: I referenced him, always referenced him to be, was a
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Speaker 1: soft spoken and humble man who would go out of
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Speaker 1: his way to help a friend or stranger in need.
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Speaker 1: My mom, Sherry, the matriarch of our family, with the
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Speaker 1: biggest giving heart imaginable, did anything and everything for everyone.
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Speaker 1: So you've got the daughter spitting out about each one
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Speaker 1: of her family members. There's nothing to say, you know,
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Speaker 1: in our line of business, we always think that there's
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Speaker 1: another side to the story. How could this seemingly normal
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Speaker 1: family be the target of a mass killing? What are
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Speaker 1: we missing? Let me go straight out to special guests
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Speaker 1: joining us Kristin Kwan to BC y B joining us
8:11
Speaker 1: from Bristol. Kristen question, what do we know about the
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Speaker 1: area where the fire occurred and the murders. It's my
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Speaker 1: understanding that it's a beautiful residential area. Yes, so it
8:27
Speaker 1: happened in Liverside Bloshere, a south neighborhood just after eliven Am. Yeah,
8:32
Speaker 1: it's described as a very very beautiful area in a
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Speaker 1: nice neighborhood. Kristin Kwan joining me WCYB, Bristol. I heard
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Speaker 1: her say something very interesting to me, Daryl Cohen, you
8:47
Speaker 1: prosecuted a lot of inner city crimes. I learned after
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Speaker 1: my first jury trial to try to find witnesses after
8:59
Speaker 1: three pm because all the dopers and all the narrow duels,
9:04
Speaker 1: all the bad guys typically are up all night and
9:08
Speaker 1: then they sleep. So if I need to find a
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Speaker 1: no good witness, don't even try till after three o'clock.
9:16
Speaker 1: On the other hand, if I want to go find
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Speaker 1: the lady school bus driver or a mom that may
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Speaker 1: have witnessed something in the neighborhood, you can go anytime
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Speaker 1: from seven am on. But if you want to get
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Speaker 1: a bad guy, they're like vampires. They are up all
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Speaker 1: night and they sleep all day. My point is eleven
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Speaker 1: am triple murder and arson. That is a little out
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Speaker 1: of the stereotypical pattern of crime, very different and see
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Speaker 1: than the normal crime, very unusual during the middle of
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Speaker 1: the morning or late morning. Too many people can see it.
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Speaker 1: To me, people are driving by haphazardly. It's highly unusual
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Speaker 1: and highly unlikely it would happen. Sadly, it did and
10:02
Speaker 1: it was nis. Okay, you did say eleven am, right,
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Speaker 1: Kristin Kwan, Yeah, okay, eleven am. And you know what,
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Speaker 1: when I would prepare cases, I'd try to find out
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Speaker 1: if there were similar transactions, if this perp had done
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Speaker 1: anything like that in the past, so I could use
10:16
Speaker 1: it to prove scheme of course of conduct, to frame
10:20
Speaker 1: of mind of the case in chief. Very often I
10:24
Speaker 1: would find crimes were committed at about the same time
10:27
Speaker 1: of the day. Like I was telling him about BTK,
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Speaker 1: he would strike while the man at the house wasn't there.
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Speaker 1: Same thing with the Golden State Killer, remember that Jackie
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Speaker 1: Joseph de'angelo. He would watch a woman's home and wait
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Speaker 1: till the man was gone. In fact, one of his
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Speaker 1: victims says she had just heard her husband. She was
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Speaker 1: in bed with her two or three year old boy,
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Speaker 1: and she just heard the husband leave, shut the door,
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Speaker 1: car crank up, leave and as she thought, oh my goodness,
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Speaker 1: he's coming back in. He must have forgotten something. But
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Speaker 1: it was the Golden State Killer watching the house. All
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Speaker 1: of his crimes same time of day. Eleven am does
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Speaker 1: not fit a triple homicide arson pattern, But as Daryl
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Speaker 1: Cohen said, that's how it happened. But let's just wait
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Speaker 1: a minute. Dave Matt Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, Riverside,
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Speaker 1: California has many, many facets to it. What can you
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Speaker 1: tell me about Riverside? Right? Riverside is about an hour
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Speaker 1: and a half west southwest of Los Angeles, so it's
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Speaker 1: an area that is very middle class. It's got a
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Speaker 1: lot of neighborhoods, you know, just as we see with
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Speaker 1: this particular one. There's nothing extraordinary about Riverside and not
11:45
Speaker 1: knocking it. It's just another typical southern California community. But
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Speaker 1: wait a minute. Three dead bodies in the home, and
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Speaker 1: that would be the single mom of two teen girls,
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Speaker 1: the grandparents, her parents, but there's someone missing. Where's the girl?
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at cal nine. He
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Speaker 1: knew what he was doing, He knew what he was
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Speaker 1: doing exactly, but thank goodness, he made a lot of
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Speaker 1: mistakes parking in the driveway, having somebody see him. A
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Speaker 1: neighbor took this photo out of her window of the
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Speaker 1: suspect's red carner driveway, thinking it might have been stolen
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Speaker 1: and dumped here. It was ten thirty in the morning
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Speaker 1: last Friday, minutes before the Winno's home started burning. The neighbor,
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Speaker 1: who asked not to be named, told me that she
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Speaker 1: saw dressed in a black trench coat and face mask
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Speaker 1: walking with the fifteen year old who lives in the house.
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Speaker 1: They were getting into the red car. She was trying
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Speaker 1: to mount the words to me, but nothing came out.
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Speaker 1: The neighbor said, I looked down and saw she was barefoot.
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Speaker 1: She was crying a little bit. She didn't try to
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Speaker 1: make a run for it. There's the girl, the fifteen
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Speaker 1: year old teen girl being forced out of the home
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Speaker 1: by a guy wearing a black trench coat and a
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Speaker 1: face mask, crying and barefoot. Crime stories with Nancy Grace
13:38
Speaker 1: straight out to kristin Kwanda. You cyb Bristol Kristen, what
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Speaker 1: exactly did the neighbors see? So the neighbors saw him,
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Speaker 1: saw a man with a trench polon and he had
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Speaker 1: the scroll holding her hand, and she appeared really really distressed.
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Speaker 1: And that was the reason that she called nine one
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Speaker 1: one and she called police. It's now interesting days mac.
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Speaker 1: The same woman had noticed a red zhicle and even
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Speaker 1: took a picture of it. What do you know about that?
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Speaker 1: What happened with that day. Well, that actually is what
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Speaker 1: got her. Really, Thank god for a neighbor that's paying attention, okay,
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Speaker 1: because without her, Nancy, we don't have the answers to
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Speaker 1: this story. Without her, we don't know who let the house,
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Speaker 1: We don't know anything. Actually, without this neighbor, and not
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Speaker 1: directly next door, a little a couple of houses away,
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Speaker 1: she sees this red car and she mentions she thought
14:36
Speaker 1: maybe somebody had stole it and they just dumped it
14:39
Speaker 1: right there in that driveway. That's why she took the picture.
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Speaker 1: That was her thought. But she paid close enough attention
14:45
Speaker 1: so that they could get the picture of the car.
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Speaker 1: They had a license plate, they had all the information
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Speaker 1: they needed because it didn't belong there. When she sees
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Speaker 1: bill girl, okay, the girl was barefoot and she the
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Speaker 1: woman could tell that it looked like she had been crying.
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Speaker 1: So while she says that she didn't make a run
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Speaker 1: for it, well there was enough other you know, the
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Speaker 1: way she was acting that the woman knew this is
15:10
Speaker 1: not right. There is something wrong. So red card should
15:13
Speaker 1: not be parked in my driveway. A girl shouldn't be
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Speaker 1: barefoot walking with another man where she looks like she's franking.
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Speaker 1: You know, it's amazing to me. Joining me Scott and
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Speaker 1: Johnson forensic psychologists, joining us out of Minnesota, thirty two
15:25
Speaker 1: years in the business, author of When I Love You
15:29
Speaker 1: Turns violent and physical abusers and sex offenders. You can
15:33
Speaker 1: find them at Forensic Consultation dot Org. Scott Johnson. Isn't
15:36
Speaker 1: it the human mind? Amazing? And that is why I
15:41
Speaker 1: always wanted to question witnesses myself, of course before you
15:47
Speaker 1: put them on a stand, but in depth in a
15:49
Speaker 1: casual setting, like in their home or their comfy or
15:52
Speaker 1: their apartment, and go through the story very slowly, and
15:59
Speaker 1: you ask us it may really be irrelevant, like what
16:03
Speaker 1: exactly did you see? What were they wearing? Did you
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Speaker 1: see their face? What was their demeanor? Did they have
16:09
Speaker 1: anything in their hands? Did you see a car nearby?
16:12
Speaker 1: Was anybody else around? Just a million questions. And this
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Speaker 1: woman remembers the teen girl was barefoot and it struck
16:22
Speaker 1: her as odd. Isn't that amazing that she sees a
16:27
Speaker 1: man and a girl walking out of the house and
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Speaker 1: that one thing struck her as odd? Absolutely, And it's
16:34
Speaker 1: the thing that sensory wise her brain picked up on that.
16:38
Speaker 1: It just didn't look right, the man's dress the way
16:41
Speaker 1: he is, the girl's looking scared, and she has no
16:45
Speaker 1: shoes on, and so those things kind of get tattooed
16:48
Speaker 1: in the brain and think God that they did notice
16:51
Speaker 1: these things. So for right now, Oh, I've got his
16:53
Speaker 1: red car to go on. That's not helping us a
16:57
Speaker 1: lot to Doctor Tim Gallagher, joining US medical Examiner for
17:01
Speaker 1: the entire state of Florida. You can find him at
17:03
Speaker 1: pathcaremad dot com. Lecturer University Florida Medical School and founder
17:09
Speaker 1: of the International Forensic Medicine Death Investigation Conference. I would
17:14
Speaker 1: be in hog Heaven at that conference, doctor Gallagher. It's
17:19
Speaker 1: a misconception that you can burn bodies to the extent
17:26
Speaker 1: there will be no evidence left explain, all right, That's
17:30
Speaker 1: a common misnoma. Actually, sometimes burning the body you would
17:33
Speaker 1: actually create more evidence. One of the things that we
17:37
Speaker 1: need to know in cases of victims who are in
17:40
Speaker 1: fires is were they killed before the fire was set
17:45
Speaker 1: or did they die as a result of the fire.
17:48
Speaker 1: And by then we can establish a timeline, you know,
17:51
Speaker 1: for certain acts that the suspect may have committed. You
17:54
Speaker 1: know what you're making me think of, rest off the
17:56
Speaker 1: top of my head, the Teresa hallbock Case. She a
18:02
Speaker 1: twenty something amateur photographer. She was taking photos for the
18:07
Speaker 1: Penny Pincher type. It was Auto Trader. That was Yeah,
18:13
Speaker 1: those free little newspapers you get when you go into
18:17
Speaker 1: the grocery store. They're right there at the doors, like
18:19
Speaker 1: Penny Pincher Auto Trader. She went to the home. You're
18:23
Speaker 1: gonna remember this making a murderer on one of the
18:28
Speaker 1: streaming was the HBO or Netflix, Thank you trying to
18:33
Speaker 1: pretend that Stephen Avery was innocent. Well, let me tell you.
18:37
Speaker 1: Her teeth and the studs off the back of her
18:40
Speaker 1: daisy flintest blue jeans were found in a fire pit
18:44
Speaker 1: in his backyard. Anyway, by burning her in the fire pit,
18:48
Speaker 1: he thought he got rid of all the evidence. But
18:51
Speaker 1: the teeth state, what's different about the teeth and the bones,
18:55
Speaker 1: Doctor Gallagher, Well, the teeth and bones are created mostly
18:59
Speaker 1: by kelsey, and calcium is not flammable, so everything around
19:04
Speaker 1: it would be incinerate it, leaving the calcium behind. So teeth, bones,
19:09
Speaker 1: and a lot of the even if the person had
19:12
Speaker 1: a medical device within them, for instance, a pacemaker or
19:17
Speaker 1: a breast implant or some kind of other medical device
19:22
Speaker 1: that would stay behind with the serial number on it,
19:27
Speaker 1: and then we can use that serial number to identify
19:30
Speaker 1: whose remains. Those are Wow a question When you go
19:34
Speaker 1: to a dinner or a party or something like that,
19:36
Speaker 1: the people ask you medical examiner questions about why in
19:42
Speaker 1: the bounds burn and the teeth remain, or questions like that,
19:45
Speaker 1: or can identify the victim by the serial number on
19:49
Speaker 1: her breast implant? Do they ask you things like that
19:52
Speaker 1: or do you just chat about politics and weather just curious? No,
19:56
Speaker 1: they do ask me things like that. They have to
19:58
Speaker 1: kind of make myself aware that are they asking me
20:00
Speaker 1: like how to get away with the perfect crime or
20:04
Speaker 1: you know, so I just kind of have to taper
20:05
Speaker 1: my answer the little bit. I don't want to be
20:07
Speaker 1: an encyclopedia for someone trying to get away with something elicit. Well,
20:12
Speaker 1: I assure you that's not why I'm asking. It also
20:15
Speaker 1: brings to mind Josh Powell. May he rot in hell
20:18
Speaker 1: with Satan forever. Josh Powell first kills his wife, Susan Powell,
20:23
Speaker 1: not prosecuted. Then he gets visitation with his two boys.
20:27
Speaker 1: Imagine that they go over to his home. He chops
20:31
Speaker 1: them with an axe in the neck and then sets
20:33
Speaker 1: the whole house on fire, another instance of trying to
20:37
Speaker 1: burn away the emmas. Well, let me query you with
20:40
Speaker 1: another question. One the three dead bodies and a missing
20:43
Speaker 1: girl have to do with the sale of a home
20:47
Speaker 1: all the way across the country from Riversy, California and Virginia.
20:52
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Ashley Hope, wc YB. According to
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Speaker 1: Smith County, Virginia records, Edwards also recently purchased to home
21:00
Speaker 1: in Saltville from Jacob Gordon. I had the house in
21:03
Speaker 1: the market for just a few hours, and you know,
21:06
Speaker 1: I got a full price offer, and you know, I
21:08
Speaker 1: was told it was a Virginia State trooper and we
21:10
Speaker 1: went from there. Indeed, for the property on Alison Gap
21:13
Speaker 1: Road was recorded on November fourteenth. He was only behind
21:17
Speaker 1: me for about eight days. You know, he was actually
21:20
Speaker 1: very nice accommodating. He offered to help me on my home.
21:23
Speaker 1: After purchasing the home, it appears he blacked out windows
21:26
Speaker 1: and put up dark curtains. That it was really weird.
21:29
Speaker 1: And then of course the owner told me also that
21:32
Speaker 1: he required that they sent the video of the basement.
21:36
Speaker 1: I mean, he didn't see the property before he purchased it,
21:38
Speaker 1: but he required a video of the basement, which seemed
21:41
Speaker 1: really weird. Us. Okay, let me understand what I just heard,
21:44
Speaker 1: joining me Kristin Kwan ABC Y B. First of all,
21:48
Speaker 1: where is Smith County, Virginia? Smith County, Virginia is in
21:52
Speaker 1: the southwestern area of Virginia, close to northeast Tennessee. Very area,
22:02
Speaker 1: very rural area. Now you know, I'm not a realtor,
22:08
Speaker 1: Darrel Cohen, never been interested in real estate law, although
22:12
Speaker 1: my real estate professor James Rayburg scared everybody stiff. But
22:18
Speaker 1: how typical is it? I mean, you've got people within
22:22
Speaker 1: your practice, not you, that deal with real estate closings
22:26
Speaker 1: to buy a home site and seen, yet you insist
22:30
Speaker 1: on seeing a video of the basement. First, Nancy, I've
22:34
Speaker 1: been around a long time. But by the way, Professor
22:36
Speaker 1: Rayburgh scared that. You know what out of me is? Yeah,
22:39
Speaker 1: his nickname was death Ray. I just maybe you wouldn't
22:43
Speaker 1: call him. You have eye contact, so that should have
22:46
Speaker 1: been his real name, not his nickname. But for someone
22:49
Speaker 1: to buy a home unseen is at best unlikely. For
22:54
Speaker 1: someone to buy a home unseen and want to see
22:56
Speaker 1: a picture of the basement video. What does that tell
22:59
Speaker 1: you they're up to something that's absolutely bad, is nefarious,
23:03
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable, and it's got to be on every real
23:07
Speaker 1: estate agent's radar. This ain't right. Yeah, it makes me
23:11
Speaker 1: think of, Oh, my son has just gotten into breaking
23:15
Speaker 1: bad where the high school teacher has a meth lab,
23:20
Speaker 1: but it's not in his home, but he has the
23:21
Speaker 1: secret places he does it. That would be my first thought.
23:25
Speaker 1: They're putting a meth lab down there. But what about this?
23:29
Speaker 1: So it's a very rural area and as soon as
23:32
Speaker 1: he buys a home he blacks out the windows and
23:35
Speaker 1: puts up dark curtains. Is that not ring any bells
23:40
Speaker 1: of alarm in your minds? Because it sure is mine.
23:44
Speaker 1: So who is this guy? Take a listen again to
23:48
Speaker 1: Ashley Hooke. I asked Gordon if he had many interactions
23:51
Speaker 1: with Edwards. He kept to his self. He really didn't
23:54
Speaker 1: have a lot to say. I actually invited him to
23:58
Speaker 1: have the dinner with me and my family one night,
24:00
Speaker 1: and you know he whiely de clown and others in
24:02
Speaker 1: the area, saying Edwards reportedly visited places in town wearing
24:06
Speaker 1: a trench coat. Yes, he had a strange presence about him.
24:09
Speaker 1: My wife said so. And of course the guy who
24:12
Speaker 1: lived in front of him that I know, he said
24:14
Speaker 1: that he had a very strange presence, that the guy
24:16
Speaker 1: was very weird, creepy, kept in his house. He didn't
24:20
Speaker 1: get out a lot short time here, he'd already set
24:22
Speaker 1: off alarms. To Detective Rich was Stocky, joining us thirty
24:26
Speaker 1: years in the business now an expert. Detective was Stocky.
24:31
Speaker 1: Question to you, how many times has the victim or
24:35
Speaker 1: witness said, I don't know what it was, it was
24:37
Speaker 1: just something weird about him many times? Is unbelievable to
24:41
Speaker 1: me that, especially when we talk about in my presentations
24:46
Speaker 1: with moms, moms are never wrong. God has given moms
24:50
Speaker 1: a sense of protecting their children. And sometimes the mistakes
24:56
Speaker 1: that troll losers make when they're going to these calls
24:59
Speaker 1: and the taking the report is that they doubt what
25:05
Speaker 1: the feeling is of people around the area, and especially moms.
25:09
Speaker 1: So I always make it a point when I train
25:11
Speaker 1: my police officers in cybercrime that never discount what the
25:16
Speaker 1: mom says, or somebody that's been out in the neighborhood
25:20
Speaker 1: is retired and watches everything that goes on because they're
25:22
Speaker 1: a great wealth of information because they know when something's
25:26
Speaker 1: out of place, and you're hearing the voice of a
25:28
Speaker 1: season detective, so you know that these witnesses are talking
25:32
Speaker 1: about an individual that ultimately ends up to be a perpetrator.
25:38
Speaker 1: So Scott Johnson joining me, forensic psychologist Shorting out of
25:41
Speaker 1: Minnesota and author Scott, I've theorized about this many many
25:46
Speaker 1: times that I'm just a JD. You're the shrink, and
25:50
Speaker 1: I mean that in a loving and caring way. There's
25:54
Speaker 1: something and I really believe it's not just a hunch.
25:57
Speaker 1: It's something born over a thousand and thousands of years
26:02
Speaker 1: of evolution. Possibly something we ourselves don't realize that we're
26:06
Speaker 1: picking up on. Maybe a look in the eye, maybe
26:10
Speaker 1: on a wrong word, a demeanor. But very often I
26:19
Speaker 1: get a sense about someone, as do the majority of
26:23
Speaker 1: my witnesses that I have dealt with. They get a vibe,
26:28
Speaker 1: as my daughter calls it, what is that right? And
26:31
Speaker 1: it's noticing again, something that's just out of the ordinary,
26:34
Speaker 1: and therefore it stands out in the brain. We expect
26:37
Speaker 1: a certain person to act a certain way in a
26:39
Speaker 1: certain situation, and yet we don't see that, we see
26:43
Speaker 1: something different and so it stands out as odd and
26:46
Speaker 1: it kind of bothers us. But we're not always sure
26:50
Speaker 1: what to do with it. Yeah, because we don't really
26:52
Speaker 1: understand where we're getting the information, why we feel that way.
26:56
Speaker 1: How many times, Jack, have you said, Okay, something's not right,
27:00
Speaker 1: there's something wrong with him, and it usually is at him. Sorry,
27:03
Speaker 1: guys often. So you've got this guy all the way
27:09
Speaker 1: over in Virginia, as our new friend christ and Quantas
27:13
Speaker 1: told us, very rural area near the Virginia Tennessee line,
27:18
Speaker 1: blacking out his windows, getting a video of the basement
27:24
Speaker 1: buying the house full price site unseen. What does that
27:29
Speaker 1: have to do the three dead bodies and a house
27:34
Speaker 1: on fire? Take a listen to Tony schen NBC four.
27:38
Speaker 1: Catfishing led to the deaths of the three most important
27:42
Speaker 1: people in my life, my dad, my mom, and my sister,
27:47
Speaker 1: which is why Michelle is pleading with parents to talk
27:50
Speaker 1: to their kids about this tragedy so hopefully it won't
27:54
Speaker 1: happen to anyone else's family. He was a sheriff's deputy
27:58
Speaker 1: in Virginia, but he developed an inappropriate online relationship with
28:02
Speaker 1: a fifteen year old girl here in Riverside. Authorities say
28:05
Speaker 1: he drove across the country to meet her and then
28:08
Speaker 1: eventually murdered three members of his family. Catfishing, catfishing. You've
28:15
Speaker 1: got this guy all the way in Virginia. You've got
28:18
Speaker 1: three dead people and a missing teen girl in Riverside, California. Catfishing.
28:39
Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace joining me right now. Special
28:44
Speaker 1: guest Titania Jordan, chief parenting and marketing officer at Bark Technology.
28:52
Speaker 1: I've got Bark. I'm not a pas boats person, not
28:55
Speaker 1: getting a dime out of it, but I've got it
28:57
Speaker 1: on my phone, and so does my husband. She's the
29:00
Speaker 1: author appearanting in a tech world to telling you what
29:04
Speaker 1: is catfishing. It's a call for term for an activity
29:08
Speaker 1: that's been around as long as there's been an Internet,
29:10
Speaker 1: namely pretending to be somebody else online. And it's gut
29:15
Speaker 1: wrenching to hear this story, and even more gut wrenching
29:18
Speaker 1: to know that at Bark we're sending alerts daily around
29:23
Speaker 1: predatory behavior, risky contact, sextortion. In many cases we have
29:30
Speaker 1: to notify major entities like Nick Mick, the National Center
29:34
Speaker 1: for Missing Exploited Children. What exactly is it? What exactly
29:38
Speaker 1: is cat fishing. Yes, it's the act of creating a
29:41
Speaker 1: false identity and then interacting with somebody for a specific purpose,
29:45
Speaker 1: usually to lure them into some sort of relationship. It
29:48
Speaker 1: can include mild flirting all the way to years long partnerships.
29:52
Speaker 1: And the catch is that these people have never and
29:54
Speaker 1: will never meet them in real life except for in rare,
29:58
Speaker 1: unfortunate circumstances like the one word talking about today. It
30:01
Speaker 1: happens so often. I've got twenty pages of similar transactions
30:06
Speaker 1: right in front of me. And we saw it most
30:08
Speaker 1: recently and the Delphi double murder of Libby an Abbey,
30:13
Speaker 1: where a catfisher, a pudgy guy that lived in his
30:17
Speaker 1: mom's basement, was using a Justin Bieber lookalike photo to
30:21
Speaker 1: lure young girls, including Libby and Abbey, meet up with them,
30:25
Speaker 1: get naked photos of them. Turns out his cat fishing
30:30
Speaker 1: seemingly has nothing to do with their murders. But it
30:33
Speaker 1: was a monkey rinch thrown in the entire double homicide investigation.
30:37
Speaker 1: Cat fishing It's happening all the time, and Tatalla Jordan
30:41
Speaker 1: just told you what it is. But what does it
30:44
Speaker 1: have to do with this Chase. Virginia's cap police tell
30:47
Speaker 1: us the suspected shooter served as a trooper right here
30:50
Speaker 1: in Matcha, Richmond for about ten months before he resigned
30:53
Speaker 1: in October, and then he got a job in the
30:55
Speaker 1: Washington County Sheriff's office. They telling me they hired him
30:58
Speaker 1: on November sixteenth, just in days before this triple murder.
31:02
Speaker 1: Austin Lee Edwards vision more than Ricer. CBS six covered
31:07
Speaker 1: edwards graduation from the Virginia State Police Academy back in January.
31:11
Speaker 1: A spokesperson says he was hired and entered into the
31:14
Speaker 1: academy in July twenty twenty one and was assigned to
31:16
Speaker 1: cover hin Rico County when he graduated. Hey, guys, you
31:19
Speaker 1: were just hearing our friends at wtv R. Now take
31:22
Speaker 1: a listen to Tony sin Investigators say this is the
31:26
Speaker 1: man who took their lives. Twenty eight year old Austin
31:29
Speaker 1: Lee Edwards, a law enforcement officer from Virginia who police
31:33
Speaker 1: say used a fake Internet profile to appear to be
31:36
Speaker 1: a seventeen year old boy so he could have an
31:39
Speaker 1: online relationship with brooks fifteen year old daughter. It's a
31:43
Speaker 1: method of Internet deception called catfishing. He took an oath
31:47
Speaker 1: to protect, and yet he failed to do so. Instead,
31:53
Speaker 1: he preyed on the most vulnerable. Investigators say after killing
31:56
Speaker 1: the Winneck family, Edwards set the home on fire and
32:00
Speaker 1: the teenage girl with him to journey and Jordan joining
32:03
Speaker 1: us chief parenting officer at Bark Technology. Once the catfisher
32:08
Speaker 1: starts talking to the girl. The girl the young girl
32:10
Speaker 1: thinks he's sixteen seventeen years old. He then be friends
32:14
Speaker 1: are enough online to get valuable information like phone number
32:20
Speaker 1: and home address. Of course, sometimes people post photos that
32:24
Speaker 1: have their home address in the background, like they're in
32:27
Speaker 1: their front yard and you can see maybe their car
32:30
Speaker 1: or their home. Why is it important to never give
32:33
Speaker 1: out your home address, or where you work, or any
32:37
Speaker 1: personal information like that to somebody you don't know. I mean,
32:40
Speaker 1: you outlined it clearly, But for everybody that has only
32:43
Speaker 1: been half listening, and you are listening right now, pay attention.
32:48
Speaker 1: Pay attention to this. Your children need to know that
32:52
Speaker 1: the people they're talking to online aren't necessarily who they
32:55
Speaker 1: say they are. They can be tricky people. These are
32:57
Speaker 1: adults who are highly skilled in one thing, and that
33:01
Speaker 1: is tricking them, and they can be the smartest, most loved,
33:05
Speaker 1: brilliant children in the planet, and they can still get tricked.
33:08
Speaker 1: Your children need to feel comfortable telling you about who
33:10
Speaker 1: they talk to online without ramification of doing so. You
33:13
Speaker 1: need to stay calm and they need to know that
33:16
Speaker 1: this is out there and that you are the safe
33:18
Speaker 1: place to detect the rich with Stocky, this is your Llywick.
33:22
Speaker 1: How do you tell your children without scaring them? What
33:25
Speaker 1: is catfishing? I mean I just say to my son,
33:28
Speaker 1: who are you playing with? And he says so, and
33:30
Speaker 1: son like, who else? You know? Some other kid? I'm like,
33:32
Speaker 1: how do you know? It's not like a sixty five
33:34
Speaker 1: year old guy in his underwear I new jersey and
33:38
Speaker 1: you're playing with him online. Don't give him your location
33:41
Speaker 1: or your real name. How do you tell them without
33:43
Speaker 1: scaring them? Detectives? So I teach about one hundred thousand
33:46
Speaker 1: kids a year and we talk about this in depth.
33:49
Speaker 1: I give them a sure way how you can never
33:51
Speaker 1: be catfish. So we talk about five factors of authentication.
33:55
Speaker 1: If you can't tell me their first name, their last name,
33:57
Speaker 1: their phone number, where they go to school, and where
33:59
Speaker 1: they based on what you know to be true physically,
34:03
Speaker 1: everyone else online is a liar. So then I asked
34:06
Speaker 1: the kids, how many webcams do you have at your disposal?
34:12
Speaker 1: They'll have a webcam on their Chromebook, their iPad, their desktop,
34:18
Speaker 1: their tablet, and their phone. So if you are talking
34:23
Speaker 1: to someone that you really have not verified who they are,
34:26
Speaker 1: and they're asking for personal information with parent or guardian permission,
34:30
Speaker 1: tell them, hey, let's go to webcam. I just want
34:32
Speaker 1: to make sure you're not catfishing me and I want
34:34
Speaker 1: to make sure you are who you say you are. Well,
34:36
Speaker 1: I tell Detective. I tell the children it's usually my son.
34:41
Speaker 1: He can't play with anybody own line that he doesn't
34:44
Speaker 1: know in real life he's never met, and I think
34:48
Speaker 1: it's working. So that leads me to Detective, where's the girl?
34:53
Speaker 1: The last way I heard of her, She's being taken
34:55
Speaker 1: out of the house by the guy wearing a trench
34:58
Speaker 1: coat and barefoot. The search is on for a red car.
35:04
Speaker 1: Take a listen to Rick Chambers KTLA. He murdered the
35:08
Speaker 1: girl's mother, Brooke, and the girl's grandparents, Mark and Cherry Winnock,
35:13
Speaker 1: and then set the fire as he dragged the struggling
35:16
Speaker 1: team to his car. Neighbors noticed that commotion and called police,
35:20
Speaker 1: but by the time they arrived, the home was burning
35:23
Speaker 1: and Edwards was already driving back east. But about two
35:27
Speaker 1: hours after the murders, police spotted edwards red car on
35:31
Speaker 1: Highway two forty seven. SWAT units were called in and
35:35
Speaker 1: a pursuit began along Route sixty two in Kelso, though
35:39
Speaker 1: Edwards began shooting at the SWAT vehicle. Okay, so this
35:43
Speaker 1: guy not only has taken the girl, murdered her entire family,
35:48
Speaker 1: but now he's shooting at cops. Take a list of
35:52
Speaker 1: Fox eleven parked in another neighbor's driveway. They left that woman,
35:55
Speaker 1: who described the girl as in distress, gave police his
35:58
Speaker 1: license plate. Officers tracked them down halfway to Vegas and
36:01
Speaker 1: say during the pursuit, Edwards lost control while shooting at
36:04
Speaker 1: police and their chopper. The girl managed to escape to
36:08
Speaker 1: safety and police returned fire. Edwards had worked for two
36:12
Speaker 1: law enforcement departments in Virginia, with no priors or marks
36:15
Speaker 1: against his name. The teenage girl is in the color
36:18
Speaker 1: guard at Arlington High School. She's currently in protective custody.
36:21
Speaker 1: So this guy has a gun and is brazen enough
36:26
Speaker 1: to shoot at cops. To Scott Johnson. That tells me
36:33
Speaker 1: he's willing to kill again, even shooting at cops. He's
36:37
Speaker 1: already killed three people in order to get this girl
36:41
Speaker 1: back to his lair in Virginia with the blacked out
36:44
Speaker 1: windows and the heavy curtains. He's willing to kill to
36:49
Speaker 1: have sex with a fifteen year old girl, right, And
36:53
Speaker 1: you know this psychopathic traits, you know, the minimal of
36:56
Speaker 1: any anxiety or fear. You know, they really just don't
36:59
Speaker 1: care about tomorrow. They care about today, and so you know,
37:03
Speaker 1: to take the risk of being shot and killed, it
37:05
Speaker 1: it didn't matter to him, and he just didn't care.
37:10
Speaker 1: It was about the power, the control, the fantasy of
37:13
Speaker 1: having this victim back in isolation in Virginia, and the
37:19
Speaker 1: rest just didn't matter to him. To detected Rich with
37:21
Speaker 1: Stocky joining us. And this is a guy that's in
37:24
Speaker 1: law enforcement. He's been in a jail before. You know,
37:27
Speaker 1: the first time I ever went in full to county jail.
37:29
Speaker 1: When I walked out into the parking lot and it
37:32
Speaker 1: was a very bleak asphalt parking lot, it was the
37:35
Speaker 1: most beautiful thing I've ever seen. Just to get out
37:37
Speaker 1: of that jail. This guy knows the consequences was Stocky.
37:41
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. I've arrested over three hundred of these internet
37:44
Speaker 1: predators and it's butcher, baker, camelstick maker. It could be firefighters,
37:47
Speaker 1: police attorneys, doctors. It is always a secret life that
37:52
Speaker 1: nobody knows about. And until we hit that door with
37:55
Speaker 1: a search warrant, then the cats out of the bag,
37:58
Speaker 1: or in this case, when he goes so far does
38:00
Speaker 1: these unbelievable horrible acts. Now he knows he's found out.
38:04
Speaker 1: I mean Titania Jordan joining us from Bark. You can
38:08
Speaker 1: find her at Bark dot us. Titania children and I
38:12
Speaker 1: think their parents have no idea what the children are
38:18
Speaker 1: up against. The level of deceit, the level of cunning,
38:23
Speaker 1: the brazen character of these online predators. This guy has
38:30
Speaker 1: already killed three that we know of, and willing to
38:32
Speaker 1: kill cops to get this girl alone in that blacked
38:36
Speaker 1: out basement. It's disgusting, it's angering. You know. The cattish
38:43
Speaker 1: knowingly uses flattery and emotional manipulation as an adult against
38:47
Speaker 1: children to kick start a connection and then nurtures it steadily.
38:51
Speaker 1: It can happen to any one of us, you know.
38:53
Speaker 1: Detective Richwistock, he says, so many times. Not my kid,
38:56
Speaker 1: not my kid. It absolutely can't be your kids. It
39:00
Speaker 1: could be my kid. Daryl Cohen is joining me, former
39:02
Speaker 1: felony prosecutor, now a civil attorney. Daryl, you and I
39:06
Speaker 1: have spent way too much time in the Fulton County jail.
39:10
Speaker 1: Once you've been in that place, you never you never
39:14
Speaker 1: want to go to jail ever. But this guy is
39:18
Speaker 1: so driven by his demons, he'll do anything to get
39:22
Speaker 1: this girl, Nancy. Once you've spent one minute in the
39:26
Speaker 1: Fulton County jail, that's one minute too long. It's horrible,
39:31
Speaker 1: and it is indicative of so many jails. This guy.
39:35
Speaker 1: Yes he is praised, Yes he is evil, Yes he
39:40
Speaker 1: is wrong, and it's hard to look into his mind.
39:44
Speaker 1: Christ and Kuan Wcyb joining us from Bristol, Kristen. Where
39:49
Speaker 1: is the girl now? The girl now is in protected services.
39:53
Speaker 1: She'd be able to get away. I pray that she
39:55
Speaker 1: doesn't go to a foster home, that she goes to
39:57
Speaker 1: live with family. And now she is dealing with not
40:01
Speaker 1: only being in the car with a guy trying to
40:05
Speaker 1: rape her, but the murdyr of her mother and her grandparents,
40:12
Speaker 1: and her home up in flames because of this guy,
40:17
Speaker 1: this Catfisher, well, you may be happy to know that
40:20
Speaker 1: when he opened fire on the cops, they shot him dead.
40:25
Speaker 1: But this girl has a lifetime sentence of pain. Nancy
40:33
Speaker 1: Grace Grum story Sunning Off, Goodbye Friend,