Latest / UK Column Radio / A World Full of Mercenaries — with Morgan Lerette

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A World Full of Mercenaries — with Morgan Lerette · UK Column Radio

0:08
Hello, I'm Charles Mallett and this is Auk column interview
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Now. In March 2024, I interviewed
0:16
Morgan Laurette, and if you've not yet had the privilege of
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listening to him speak about, among other things, his time as
0:25
a mercenary with Blackwater, or should I say APMC with
0:29
Blackwater in Iraq in and indeed his book Guns, Girls and Greed,
0:34
then this might be the time to dip out of this interview, go
0:37
back, listen to that, and then return.
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However, if you want to go straight in with it, Morgan,
0:42
let's get to you. A very, very warm welcome back
0:45
to UK column. Well, thank you so much.
0:47
I appreciate coming on. No, not at all.
0:50
No, just before we started recording and as a as an
0:54
excellent vehicle with which to expose so many of the
0:58
shenanigans and the sort of skullduggery in the world of
1:00
private military contractors. You, you were just explaining to
1:03
me a situation involving Colombian PMCS.
1:07
Just just tell me what you were explaining then, and how that
1:11
really gets to the nub of what so much of this is all about.
1:15
Yeah, so there's there's a there's a large Colombians have
1:20
have been being used by private military contractors since I was
1:23
in Iraq in 2004. Blackwater used them all the
1:26
time, especially for like embassy security.
1:28
So, so it's kind of a feeding ground for private military
1:32
contractors to go down there and get trained soldiers and move
1:35
them to where they want. So what's happening now is
1:39
there's a contract. Supposedly this is what the, the
1:42
Colombians are being told that the UAE has a contract.
1:46
They're going to be going overseas, they're going to be
1:47
protecting oil fields. When they get overseas, they
1:52
actually get put into Libya. And then once they get into
1:55
Libya, they're they're moving across into Sudan.
1:59
And they are just absolutely getting chewed up right now.
2:02
So I mean, the, the net of it is that the private military
2:05
contractor business is expanding exponentially.
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This is 2003, 2004 all over again, except that it's bigger.
2:14
And what you're seeing is a lot of these private military
2:17
contractors are now not taking contracts for their own
2:19
government, but they're taking contracts for any government.
2:23
And that's a big step. That's a huge step.
2:26
Yeah, it absolutely is. And now when we spoke last time
2:28
in, in that interview, outsourcing morality, you said
2:31
towards the end of it and I, I wrote it down because I thought,
2:33
I thought it was particularly opposite that you wrote of PMCS.
2:37
They will throw you to the wolves the moment something bad
2:39
happens. Now with that particularly in
2:44
mind and you've sort of touched on it already since we lost
2:47
about 18 months ago, what what are the big changes or, or the
2:51
big change as far as PMC is concerned in the way you see it?
2:57
Well, I mean, the, the two big changes are one, they're taking
3:00
contracts for other governments like like we, we, we renamed
3:06
mercenaries to private military contractors and we said don't
3:09
worry, you're working for your own government.
3:11
You're not a mercenary. This changes that entire
3:15
paradigm because you're not working.
3:17
The PMCS are not working under the US government or British
3:20
government or Australian government.
3:22
They are going over to Haiti, to DRC, to El Salvador.
3:27
All these countries are actually the ones that are funding these.
3:30
So it is 100% turning into mercenary work.
3:33
And I think the the most, I would say the most in your face
3:38
one right now is the one in Gaza because you have AUS private
3:42
military contractor and they have a contract under something
3:46
called the the GHF, the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, which
3:51
is pretty much run and funded by Israel and some other states.
3:55
And they are working directly for what what I would assume is
3:59
Israel. So you have US passport holders
4:02
working on behalf of Israel in an active combat zone.
4:06
And I think that that is a huge step that everybody's kind of
4:10
avoiding right now to to your point earlier, they get tossed
4:13
to the wolves. There were two private military
4:15
contractors a few months ago that got injured over there.
4:18
Did you ever hear about it in the news?
4:21
We did not know exactly. And that's why that's why you
4:24
use private military contractors is because they don't make the
4:27
news when they get injured between their their non
4:30
disclosure agreements and UG solutions making sure that the
4:34
news isn't getting out and and really trying to
4:37
compartmentalise it so they don't know what it's going.
4:39
Now look, I will be the first one to tell you the reason why
4:43
UG solutions is in Gaza is because the UN is an abject
4:47
failure at getting humanitarian aid into combat zones.
4:50
They are terrible at it. They will lose anywhere between
4:53
60 and 90% of the food to the warlords that are essentially in
4:58
this case Hamas. So what do you do?
5:01
You go and you outsource it. And UG solutions is doing a much
5:04
better job. Here's the problem is that when
5:07
one of those US passport holders gets captured by Hamas, how does
5:12
the US react? What are the legal ramifications
5:14
for that? And the truth is, is that nobody
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knows. And at some point we're going to
5:19
find out and it is going to be an absolute melee.
5:23
Yeah. Now just just to clarify on a
5:26
point there, because I think it's, it is a very interesting
5:29
one. You've written about this,
5:30
you've written about UG solutions within the last couple
5:33
of months and the contract that you refer to.
5:36
But also, and I'm not expecting that you'll reel them off the
5:39
top of your head, but you articulated the six criteria
5:43
that constitute A mercenary. And that's a really important
5:48
distinction to make. But sort of in a nutshell, what
5:50
is it that that does push somebody over the line or an
5:54
organisation over into being a mercenary?
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And why is that a concern? I mean from, from the, the
6:00
easiest definition, are you being paid to go over to a
6:03
combat zone and fight for a country that's not yours?
6:07
That that is 100%. Now the UN has defined it and
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there's six different criteria and it's are you in offensive
6:13
operations? I can't remember what they are
6:16
off the top of my head by any stretch of the imagination.
6:18
But at the end of the day, this is mercenary work.
6:23
We just, we just, you know, when you say that, that you don't
6:25
want to say somebody's homeless anymore, you want to say they're
6:28
unhoused, right? Like you're putting very nice
6:31
vernacular around something that is literally the oldest
6:33
profession in the entire world. So if you're going overseas in a
6:38
combat zone, if you're carrying a weapon, if you're doing
6:42
offensive operations, this is a point of contention.
6:44
I'll hit on in a second. You are essentially a mercenary.
6:48
Now, a lot of people say this is defensive, this is defensive
6:51
operations. But convoy operations in an
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active combat zone are by definition offensive operations.
6:58
And they all have weapons. You can't tell me that when you
7:01
were overseas, Charles, that when you were doing combat
7:04
operations, you said, oh, this is defensive.
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Oh, this is this is a defensive operation.
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If we get hit, we're just going to, we're just going to run as
7:10
fast as we can. No, you stop and you fight.
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And that's how that works. It is an absolutely an offensive
7:15
operation. And I'll tell you, a lot of the
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Blackwater guys, former Blackwater guys, are very
7:20
frustrated that I say mercenary because I don't think anybody
7:25
wants to look themselves in the face and say I'm a mercenary
7:28
except for me, I don't care. It doesn't bother me.
7:30
I sleep fine at night. But a lot of these people are
7:32
saying, well, we're not mercenaries.
7:34
We were over there with the government.
7:35
And it's hard to make that argument now that you are
7:39
working for UG Solutions or Vectis in Haiti or any of these
7:43
other places where you're not working for the US government.
7:47
Yeah, it's a really good point. We'll come back to a little bit
7:49
more on the specifics of that, I think particularly in relation
7:52
to the sort of policy area. But just going back to the point
7:55
you make about the UN, you know, the UN as you say, may, may well
7:59
be able to or rather we can demonstrate that there's a
8:02
terrible track record and therefore that anybody else
8:05
perhaps could be able to do it better.
8:07
But of course, there's significant collateral attached
8:11
to that and and some of the things that you pointed to in
8:13
the article that you wrote was the specific targeting of
8:18
civilians and the way in which this has has sort of played out
8:21
in terms of the kinetic activities associated with it.
8:26
We just talk a bit more about that.
8:29
Well, you know, the UN actually doesn't do their own stuff
8:31
either. It's not like they have their
8:33
own employees. They go in, they hire
8:35
contractors that deliver food aid.
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So it it's not that different than the UN's paradigm.
8:40
What is different is that you're doing it with a profit motive
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and people think profit is just this horrible thing.
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I don't think it's bad because usually you're going to do it a
8:49
heck of a lot better, as UG Solutions has shown.
8:52
The problem with the UN, anybody that's seen the movie Black Hawk
8:56
Down or read the book, where essentially they're delivering
8:59
food aid and the warlord indeed comes in and steals all the
9:02
food, well, that food is then taken and you're seeing it in
9:06
Gaza with Hamas. The food is taken, it's put on
9:08
the local market, and it's exploiting the people that the
9:11
food is supposed to get to, and Hamas is making money.
9:15
Once they make that money, what do they do with it?
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They buy weapons, they buy whatever they absolutely can to
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continue waging their war. So the UN is actually
9:24
promulgating that problem by giving over the food aid to the
9:30
warlords that run it now. UG Solutions does a better job,
9:33
but it's not perfect. It's absolutely not perfect, but
9:36
they are getting food directly to the people on the ground that
9:40
need the food Now. What happens after that, who
9:43
knows, because nobody's going to take a meal ready to eat and
9:47
spoon feed somebody, right? They're going to take the food.
9:50
There's been a number of reports that Hamas waits outside of
9:53
these things and they're able to steal the food from people that
9:56
are coming out. So it still happens, but at
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least you're getting it to the people that need it on the
10:01
ground. And the UNI.
10:03
I mean, I, I hate to say it, but the UN is just not effective
10:07
pretty much in anything but around food aid.
10:10
They are the absolute worst. Yeah, OK.
10:13
And of course, this related to the Gaza Humanitarian
10:17
Foundation, which you already referred to.
10:19
The issue there seems to be that that none of the UN agencies or
10:22
indeed any of the others will actually work with them, which
10:27
creates enormous problems sort of of its own.
10:31
What's your thoughts on that? Well, the UN's being obstinate,
10:36
right? The UN doesn't want anybody
10:38
taking over their perceived area, right?
10:42
It it, it's a territory thing. I do know for a fact that UG
10:46
Solutions has reached out to the UN and said, hey, if you guys
10:48
have food, we're happy to help you do it.
10:50
But the UN is sitting there saying, I don't like your
10:53
distribution strategy. I don't like the fact that
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you're only doing this at four sides.
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We would want to do it in different places, UG solutions
11:00
and saying that's not like the security around trying to do it
11:04
that way is so difficult that if you come and you play ball with
11:08
us, we will get the food distributed.
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And the UN is saying, no, this is my ball, I'm going to take
11:13
it, go home. And and really the people that
11:15
suffer are the people that are on the ground.
11:17
It's the Palestinians. And and that's the shame of it
11:19
is that we're having a proverbial manhood measuring
11:24
contest while people are starving because the UN, the UN
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absolutely fears that they're going to lose funding and the
11:31
funding is going to go over to these private organisations.
11:34
But at this point, it probably should.
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Yeah. Well, that's a really
11:38
interesting point because when when we spoke last time, we
11:40
talked about, I suppose in some senses, the chronology of, let's
11:47
say, interference in foreign countries.
11:50
We were largely talking about the United States and I suppose
11:53
to, to an extent the United Kingdom as well.
11:56
And, and you spoke about the the way in which PMCS are used
12:01
first. Now in your experience, that
12:04
wasn't actually the case in that there was a military engagement
12:08
first in Iraq before PMCS were subsequently engaged in what was
12:14
described as being a reconstruction effort.
12:15
But but now the way in which it's worked in Gaza in
12:19
particular, obviously I'm excluding the IDF from this, but
12:23
do do you see this as a precursor to military engagement
12:28
involving countries that are not directly involved in in the
12:32
conflict? I mean, this is already
12:35
happening. Let's be honest.
12:36
This is happening in the Ukraine.
12:39
The Russians brought in the North Koreans.
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You can call them whatever you want, but at the end of the day,
12:43
it's a mercenary military that they bring in underneath their
12:46
military and they're fighting. So that's one side.
12:49
The other side is bringing in Colombians.
12:51
Go figure, right? So the Ukrainians are bringing
12:55
in Colombians and they're putting them under the Ukrainian
12:58
Foreign Legion. And now they're fighting.
13:00
So what you have is Colombians fighting N Koreans over a border
13:04
conflict between the Ukraine and Russia.
13:07
This is happening. It's going to continue
13:09
happening. My concern is that now that
13:13
we've decided that we're going to use PMCS as kind of that
13:17
foothold, right? And, and this has been happening
13:20
for years. What's going to stop any other
13:23
nation state from saying, well, I'm going to use my PMCS to go
13:26
fight your PMCS for minerals, right?
13:29
So when, when you look at the promulgation of PMCS right now,
13:32
the big push is minerals. It's in Africa, it's in, I mean,
13:38
it's wherever you have something that's worth value, there's
13:40
going to be a private military contractor.
13:42
And the, the Trump administration has made an
13:45
absolute point that we need to secure these minerals.
13:48
And but they've also made it a point that we are not going to
13:50
put boots on the ground to secure these minerals.
13:52
So that's why Eric Prince, I think he's gotten more frequent
13:55
flyer miles in the last two weeks that I've probably gotten
13:59
in my entire life because he's going state to state to state
14:01
saying I will help you not only secure your minerals, but I will
14:05
help you collect the taxes that come from it when you sell
14:08
these. And then from that, I'll take a
14:10
little piece of it, like I'm kindness of my heart, I'll take
14:13
a little piece of that. But it does actually secure the
14:17
minerals. And the US is kind of banking on
14:19
the fact that if we have a financial treaty with these
14:24
individuals and you have US passport holders on the ground
14:27
that other countries are going to say, OK, I don't want any
14:29
part of that because because the full force of the US could come
14:33
in behind it. I don't think that's going to be
14:36
the case. I think places like China and
14:38
Russia are going to be more than happy to say, hey, we we have
14:42
our own private military contractors.
14:44
China has, well, it was started by Eric Prince, but China has
14:48
Frontier Services Group. You have Russia with the Wagner
14:51
Group. Like there's nothing stopping
14:54
PIPMC on PMC conflict over something and it's it's going to
14:59
kick off. So when people say, oh, how's
15:01
we're going to go into World War three, how's it going to start?
15:03
It's going to start because the US private military contractor
15:06
gets killed just like Fallujah 2004.
15:10
It's going to make the news and the US is going to have to
15:13
respond and then reciprocally the other side is going to
15:16
respond. OK, masses to talk about from
15:20
that. Let's let's start particularly
15:24
with those in mind that might not be necessarily and and
15:29
totally understandably familiar with exactly, you know, your own
15:33
well, actually unique experiences in that you were US
15:36
Air Force contractor than U.S. Army.
15:40
Just explain the way you see it. You've talked about Eric Prince
15:44
and I think he'd be a really good example of the the sort of
15:47
revolving door environment and the the connections between
15:51
government, military and contractors and how it is a sort
15:55
of mutual back scratching exercise and also how people
15:59
despite the disasters, they never disappear.
16:02
They evolve. Just just just put that into
16:04
into a sort of, you know, meaningful summary.
16:09
All right, so private military contracting was created in 2004
16:14
essentially, right? So the United States didn't want
16:17
to see be seen as an occupier of Iraq.
16:20
So we came in, we gave the government of Iraq to the
16:23
people. And then we said now it's a
16:25
diplomatic mission. Ignore the whole war thing.
16:27
Not a big deal that's still going on.
16:28
But now it's a diplomatic mission from from from AUS
16:31
policy standpoint. So you bring in all these
16:33
diplomats and somebody says, how the heck are we going to, how
16:35
are we going to protect these guys?
16:37
We don't have, we have, they have diplomatic security
16:40
services, but they don't have enough people to protect these
16:43
diplomats. Blackwater gets a call,
16:45
Blackwater gets a contract. You know, dumb guy like me, 23
16:48
years old, I'm over there protecting diplomats.
16:51
So it was bored of necessity. That's what contractors are
16:54
supposed to be for, for a stopgap measure.
16:56
You get it done. And I remember being on the
16:59
ground, we would all say, make your money now because State
17:02
Department's going to start, you know, hiring their own people
17:05
and training them up and taking our jobs, right?
17:07
Get your money while it's available.
17:09
What happened was, is that they they decided that they didn't
17:13
need to train their own people because now you have this entire
17:16
pool of individuals like me that are willing to go over there to
17:19
risk their life. And if something bad happens to
17:22
those people, nobody cares. I hate to say it, but nobody
17:26
really cares, right? It's a contractor.
17:28
You don't need the support that you have with the contractor
17:30
that you have with U.S. military members.
17:32
So, So what happened was is you had you, we took this battle
17:35
space and we flooded it with military and with private
17:39
military contractors. And nary the two shall ever
17:43
actually help each other out. Like, like I will tell you
17:46
straight up, we did not like the military.
17:48
The military absolutely hated us.
17:50
And when you inject that many civilians into a battle space on
17:56
your side, supposedly, it makes it extremely hard to actually
18:00
execute a war policy. I can tell you that for every
18:03
heart and mind that the US military tried to, you know,
18:06
tried to save Blackwater, myself included, was out there smashing
18:10
up cars and pissing people off. So, so it it's a contentious
18:14
relationship, but at the same time, both are being paid by the
18:18
same big fat pot of money and neither one of them wants to
18:21
say, oh, oh, I'm I'm not doing a good enough job.
18:24
Right. How long, how many times did you
18:25
see in Iraq where they would say, oh, we're making great
18:28
progress? And then a car bomb goes off by
18:30
me and I'm like, that doesn't sound like progress.
18:33
But but the private military contractors were more than happy
18:36
to support the US military, do their own thing and then say,
18:39
wow, but I don't have to play by your rules either.
18:42
So it's almost like if you think about it like a soccer game,
18:44
football for you guys, I apologise if you don't put rules
18:48
around how to play football, you're going to have people over
18:54
on one side, they're going to be injured.
18:55
You're going to have people that are crying on the other side.
18:57
Like it's just going to be an absolute free for all.
18:59
And that's what injecting private military contractors
19:03
into a combat zone looks like. There are no rules.
19:05
There are no regulations. There's nobody there with a
19:08
whistle to say, hey, you guys are not supposed to be doing
19:10
that. That's against the rules.
19:12
So you end up having to organisations that are making a
19:16
crap tonne of money. And at the end of the day, is
19:19
there really any reason to say I want, I want this to be more
19:22
stable? And I don't think there is.
19:23
I, I honestly, and I've had to do some soul searching.
19:26
We did some great stuff. But were we of value add to the
19:29
war effort? I don't think we were.
19:31
I mean, if anything, we were a detractor.
19:33
But we can sit there and say, yeah, on this part I did OK.
19:36
And on this part we did good stuff.
19:38
But it strategically it's just an absolute fiasco to do it to,
19:42
to wage war that way. Yeah, and I mean, there's an
19:46
irony in a sense on the, you know, your description of, of
19:51
military and contractors essentially hating each other.
19:55
And I think anyone will understand exactly what it is
19:57
you mean by that because, because the conditions under
20:00
which each operate are different and at least different enough to
20:03
'cause that degree of friction. But Eric Prince, of course, is
20:07
such a good example. Because if it if it weren't for
20:09
the military connection in the 1st place, then none of this
20:13
would be happening. And indeed, most of the
20:15
contractors themselves are military.
20:19
Yeah, our prior, prior military for sure.
20:21
And at the end of the day, Eric Prince makes his money because
20:25
you already come out of the military trained the military
20:28
probably sank five, $600,000 into me to train me to pay me to
20:32
do my job. And then Eric Prince says, hey,
20:35
I can sync, you know, 5-6, seven, $7000 into you.
20:38
And now you're fully trained to do the job that I need you.
20:41
And I'll pay you way more than you're making as a civilian,
20:44
which is, or as a soldier, which was great for me.
20:47
But at the same time, if I was making $500 a day, which I was,
20:50
they were probably charging $2000 a day for every day I was
20:54
on ground. So the, the profit motive, I
20:57
think the first thing that it does is, is it makes every
21:01
private military contractor want to expand because for every boot
21:04
on the ground, you make money and what are you going to do?
21:08
Of course you're going to say, hey, we need more people to do
21:10
this. We need more people to do that.
21:12
And then that's how those contracts just get bloated.
21:14
Now Eric Prince, of course, yes, he, he was honestly, he was the
21:20
right place, the right time, the right uniform, as we say in the
21:23
military, when when they said there's a contract coming up, he
21:26
said, I know a bunch of guys, they use my shooting range, I
21:29
can fill this contract. And he was, he was able to
21:31
actually do that. So he he kind of stumbled into
21:35
it, but now he is actively pushing the outer limits of what
21:40
private military contractors can and cannot do.
21:44
Yeah. And, and on that, I mean, one
21:46
example might seem to be the use of well, at least the reported
21:52
use of biometric checkpoints by GDCI mean just going going back
21:57
to Gaza. And, and this certainly for the
22:00
UK column audience, we, we report a lot on the push towards
22:04
digital, more or less digital everything apparently, but in
22:08
particular digital identity and the capturing of biometrics by
22:13
sort of soft means. I mean, in the UK at the minute
22:15
there's a push to make people who are coming into the country
22:20
and taking up particular tendencies, residential
22:24
tendencies to load up biometric information.
22:27
The same with landlords. There's then, you know, put
22:30
various initiatives for young people to get involved with this
22:33
to prove their age, specifically with regard to sort of online
22:36
activities. And, and, and now here in Gaza,
22:40
apparently we're seeing people required to give biometric
22:44
information in order that they can pass checkpoint at the same
22:48
time as units 8200 sort of tech offshoots have developed facial
22:54
recognition technology for autonomous drone strikes and
22:57
whatnot. I mean that that is a, that is a
23:00
deeply sort of troubling situation.
23:03
I mean, that's amazing power in a way for a private company to
23:08
hold, wouldn't you agree? Well, you can call it whatever
23:12
you want. I call it extrajudicial killing.
23:14
Like that's, that's really what it is.
23:16
And, and I look, my guess is the IDF is doing a lot of the
23:22
biometric stuff. I, I got some buddies in Gaza.
23:25
I've never heard them say that they are out there collecting,
23:28
you know, iris scans and fingerprints.
23:30
I, I don't think that's part of their purview.
23:32
I'm sure the IDF is doing it. Here's what I will tell you
23:35
though, is that Eric Prince signed a 10 year contract with
23:39
the government of Haiti and he has private military contractors
23:43
down there and they are putting explosives on drones and they
23:47
are blowing up gang members. Now, I know nobody gives a crap
23:52
about about, you know, well, everybody wants to quote
23:55
international law, but when it actually comes down to it, most
23:58
people just ignore it. Let's be honest here, without
24:02
any kind of due process, a drone is flying in and blowing
24:06
somebody up in Haiti and it is a private company that is making
24:11
money off of that. Now that that's a big step, but
24:15
let's be honest here, that is a massive step in what a private
24:18
military contractor should be able to do.
24:20
And, and I understand why Haiti would say, look, I need to use
24:23
PMCS. How many billions of dollars has
24:25
the US and other countries poured into Haiti?
24:28
And it is still an absolute cesspool of corruption and gang
24:33
violence. So of course the government of
24:35
Haiti is going to say, look, that hasn't been working.
24:37
What can I do? Let's take some of that money
24:39
I'm getting from somebody else and let's bring in a private
24:41
military contractor that doesn't have the same rules and laws and
24:45
restrictions as say that the military does.
24:48
So I, I think it's a, it's a very slippery slope that we are,
24:53
we are sliding down at, at lightspeed right now with Eric
24:57
Prince being able to say, yes, we're going to go and we're
24:59
going to secure Port au Prince and we're going to collect
25:01
taxes. That's the other thing they're
25:02
doing. And we're just going to blow up
25:04
these gang members without having them go through any kind
25:07
of a judicial or legal process. That's that's pretty Dang scary.
25:12
Yeah, it is. It is very scary, not least
25:15
because what you're describing is therefore normalising that
25:20
kind of activity, as though to suggest, well, I mean, now it's
25:23
been done, so what's to stop us ignoring, like you say, more
25:28
international humanitarian laws, laws of armed conflict?
25:31
It's been done now, so it's OK. Well, I mean, Ukraine normalised
25:35
it. Let's be honest, the Ukraine and
25:37
Russia think they normalised it. It got put on it got put on X
25:41
and YouTube and all those other things.
25:43
So people are used to seeing it and now it's like, well, hey, if
25:45
people are seeing it, why not? Why the heck?
25:49
Why the heck wouldn't I use this?
25:50
And I mean, The funny thing is, is that he's not going and
25:53
building these amazing sophisticated drones like you
25:56
have with like Lockheed Martin and, and these bombs.
26:00
I mean, he's trapping explosives onto commercial grade drones
26:04
that you could go buy at your local, you know, hardworks,
26:07
Walmart, whatever. And then saying, yeah, that guy
26:11
looks like he's like, he's bad news.
26:12
Hit that dude. Like it's very, I mean, this is
26:16
when you you watch those movies and you're like, oh, that could
26:19
never happen. Like we're getting to that point
26:21
as a as a global society. That's like, no, this, this is
26:25
fine. We'll just, we'll just fly
26:26
something over this guy and blow him up.
26:29
Yeah, which is terrifying and should cause outrage to the
26:33
point of proper physical sort of pushback on this.
26:37
And yet, pretty much nothing. Which?
26:40
Exactly. Now tell me, therefore, are we
26:44
looking at 2 parallel things or is it part of the same thing in
26:49
I mean, you've talked about Ukraine, you've talked about
26:53
Gaza, that since we last spoke, a lot has changed in some
26:59
respects and yet also in others, nothing has changed.
27:03
But but I think from Auk column perspective, we've talked a lot
27:07
about what looks like a March towards war, whether it be
27:14
instigated by NATO, by some sort of US LED coalition by the UK,
27:22
it doesn't seem quite clear but that but the the way in which
27:25
it's being described in the UK. We've just had a defence review
27:28
published here talking about the defence dividend, massive
27:31
investment in in so called defence.
27:33
Again, we're on the doublespeak thing.
27:34
Of course, it's actually war. It's not defence, but but we all
27:37
know what we're talking about now.
27:40
That's one way of looking at it. But actually a lot of what
27:43
you're talking about is, is really suggesting that actually
27:45
we're already there and it's not really necessary for young
27:51
people to swarm into military organisations because look at
27:55
what's happening. Look at what's happening in
27:57
Haiti. Look what's happening with the
27:58
Colombians in Ukraine or Libya or, or you know what, whatever.
28:02
Do you see these as being sort of two parallel tracks or or are
28:06
they different things or or what?
28:09
That depends. Do you ever want to win a war
28:11
again? I mean, that's that's what it
28:13
comes down to, right? So we had a very effective
28:17
strategy in Afghanistan where we weren't really actively waging
28:20
war, but we were targeting terrorists through drones,
28:25
essentially, right? Like like we could reach out and
28:27
we could touch you and we could scare you and and make it to
28:30
where you don't have the ability to wage war against us using
28:33
these. Nobody would say we won in
28:36
Afghanistan, right? So at the end of the day, you
28:39
can't win a war unless you take land, you hold land and you say
28:44
now we're going to rebuild everything within this land,
28:47
right? You're, you're seeing that in
28:49
Israel right now with Gaza. They're essentially saying the
28:51
same thing. They're saying, look, we're
28:52
never going to win against Hamas if we don't take all this land
28:55
and we hold this land. And then we essentially prop up
28:57
a government saying that we same thing we did after World War 2.
29:01
Germany, Japan, all you know, I don't know about Italy.
29:04
I think they were like the, the redheaded stepchild of, of, of
29:08
the Axis of evil. But at the end of the day, if
29:10
you want to win, you have to have boots on the ground.
29:13
You have to have guns kicking, people with guns kicking
29:15
indoors. What we're seeing now is the
29:20
protracted way of of waging war without actually making it into
29:26
a war. And, and that's what the drones
29:29
are doing. That's what the private military
29:30
contractors are doing. Nobody's ever going to say that
29:33
you're going to win a war using APMC.
29:36
But I think what the Trump administration is saying is
29:40
these minerals are so valuable to us as a nation that we need
29:44
to have somebody on the ground as a deterrent so that Russia or
29:49
China or some of these other world powers don't get a hold of
29:52
it. Let's put private military
29:54
contractors in there. Just see if that's enough of a
29:57
deterrent because you don't want to put boots on the ground.
29:59
Nobody. Everybody's so tired of war.
30:02
I don't know how it is in the UK. the US is so tired of war,
30:05
so tired of putting boots on the ground.
30:07
The pro war party of the Republicans are like, no more
30:10
wars. And somehow the liberal part,
30:12
the Democrats are like, yeah, wars are OK as long as we don't
30:14
use our own people. Like it's fine if Ukrainians
30:17
keep dying and the Russians keep dying.
30:18
Nobody wants boots on the ground.
30:20
How do you avoid that? How do you circumvent that?
30:23
Use private military contractors?
30:25
Yeah. It's a really interesting point,
30:26
especially on the the mineral side of it, because of course
30:30
there's been a lot about this on it.
30:32
Well, with specific regard to Ukraine, which is such a good
30:34
example because there, there is just so, so much proxy activity,
30:38
which of course is exactly what you're describing at the UK.
30:42
Yeah, there seems to be, sorry, in the UK there seems to be
30:45
utter apathy where the idea of war or any sort of involvement
30:49
with the armed forces is concerned.
30:51
I I, I don't say that as a criticism necessarily, because
30:56
like you've said previously, the whole idea of interference in
31:01
other people's affairs in order to shove democracy down their
31:05
throats is actually something that's never really been proven
31:08
to work. And it hasn't worked yet, but we
31:11
can keep trying. Exactly.
31:13
And the cost, you know the, the cost what, what you actually
31:16
said, I wrote it down because I thought it was so pertinent.
31:18
You, you said on foreign policy, we continue, we continue to get
31:21
ourselves in places where it's not going to change the outcome.
31:24
And if it's not going to change the outcome, then why the heck
31:26
are we doing it? And you went on to say we are.
31:28
Why are we sacrificing literal human human beings?
31:33
I mean, you know, no, no one listening, I don't think is
31:35
really going to disagree with any of what you said.
31:38
But with that in mind, we find ourselves in a position here we
31:40
are 2025 where European governments talking about a, a
31:45
reassurance force to be sent into Ukraine, you know,
31:50
headquartered in London minute we were moved to Paris and
31:53
whatever. I mean, the whole idea sounds
31:56
utterly fanciful, or at least it would if there weren't ulterior
32:02
motives. But but something like that.
32:04
How do you see that idea, let's say as a specific example
32:08
playing out? I mean, look, Europe, Europe is
32:13
a weird place from an American perspective because we, we have
32:19
a large, strong military and I mean, second to none, no
32:24
offence, but at the end of the day, like, like the technology
32:28
of war kind of starts in America and then it, and then it pushes
32:33
out. I've always been an avid
32:36
believer that you have to have a very strong defence in case you
32:40
need a very strong offence. There has to be a deterrent.
32:43
And even when I was going to the Snooty, you know, school, Tufts
32:46
University, Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, they, they do
32:50
talk about defensive versus offensive.
32:52
And yes, you have to have that defensive structure.
32:55
Europe has kind of ignored that for decades and decades and
33:00
decades. And now that, you know, not only
33:02
that, but then, you know, NATO kept expanding itself across,
33:06
getting closer to Russia, just poking at the bare.
33:08
And now all of a sudden they're saying, holy crap, Russia
33:11
actually could go in and do stuff.
33:12
And let's be honest, if the US and other countries weren't
33:17
propping up the Ukraine, it would be decimated right now.
33:20
Like, absolutely. There's no way that they would
33:22
have been able to stop the Russian forces.
33:24
So I, I think that at this point, as a, as a kind of group,
33:31
the European Union needs to look at itself and say, if we're
33:33
going to keep poking at Russia, we probably need to have a
33:36
strong defence. Now the problem with that is
33:39
that as soon as you create that strong defence, there's an
33:42
inclination to say, oh, I bet I could use that.
33:45
And, and, and, and that's the concern, right?
33:48
Russia keeps on going into to native what they were in
33:51
Estonia, they flew into Estonia or something this earlier this
33:54
morning. Russia's going to keep poking
33:56
back and at some point the European Union is going to have
34:00
to say, am I going to use these defensively?
34:02
Am I going to use these offensively?
34:04
And when you're, when you have it, you know, it's like having a
34:08
hammer and you go outside, you see a nail sticking out.
34:10
I may as well use it, right? I'm not going to I'm not going
34:12
to go get a rock when I have a hammer.
34:14
So I, I, I don't really know how I feel on it.
34:17
I do feel that there has been decades of mismanagement
34:24
thinking that, oh, everything's going to be peaceful, it's going
34:27
to be fine. And finally, Europe, Europe is
34:28
seeing holy crap, like there are chances that this could go South
34:32
very fast. How do, how do we catch up?
34:35
And I I don't know if they can. OK.
34:37
It's very interesting. Let's look at the strategic
34:41
Russia, Russia, China, Turkey, North Korea will throw them in
34:45
there as the redheaded stepchop. They have everything they need.
34:47
They have manufacturing, they can manufacture weapons, they
34:50
can feed themselves. They don't need Europe the same
34:53
way that I think Europe feels that that they're needed by
34:57
those countries. So I wouldn't be shocked if
35:00
those four just said, you know, screw the world, let's, let's do
35:02
our thing. And that's really kind of, you
35:04
know how World War 2 started, right?
35:06
Yeah. I think having the, having a
35:08
transatlantic perspective on that is fascinating because I
35:12
think you're absolutely right. And and actually the, the poke
35:16
the bear piece of it is certainly the way in which from
35:21
an editorial point of view that that's absolutely the way in
35:23
which UK column has looked at this very issue.
35:27
I mean, there's point taken about Ukraine not surviving this
35:32
long without the active intervention of all the various
35:36
nations that have decided to sort of shell out.
35:39
But frankly, without all those nations, would this conflict
35:43
have started in the 1st place? Probably, in fact, almost
35:46
certainly not. But but, but let's say,
35:49
therefore, let's cross the pond because I think something we
35:53
really need to hear about, which again, audience I would think
35:57
even in the States probably doesn't know very much about is
36:00
the engagement of PMCS on the border with Mexico.
36:05
And just just just give an overview of that and then we'll
36:08
sort of pick into it a bit. Yeah, so, and look, this all
36:11
Harkins back to O4O5, right? Government agencies realised I
36:15
can fill the gap with private military contractors.
36:19
So here's what's happening. Under the Biden administration,
36:22
we had an extremely porous border, but this didn't start
36:25
under Biden. This started under President
36:27
Obama, went under President Trump, Obama and now Trump
36:30
again. So essentially, when a
36:34
unaccompanied minor, a child, presents themselves at the US
36:37
Mexico border, Border Patrol only has 72 hours that they can
36:40
detain them within that 72 hour time frame.
36:44
They hand them off to a private military contractor.
36:48
The biggest one is MVM Mike, Victor, Mike.
36:51
And they take them from the US border into the United States
36:56
and they hand them off to a different contract under a
37:00
different department. So they went from Department of
37:02
Homeland Security, they drop them off.
37:04
Now they're under the Department of Health and Human Services.
37:08
That department has something called the Office of Refugee
37:11
Resettlement. And those people are supposed to
37:13
be the ones that say this is a child, this is a refugee.
37:16
We need to find a sponsor so that this child can go hang out
37:19
with their family or, or whoever their sponsors are.
37:22
You can't just release a child into the into the world, right?
37:26
What's happened in real life is the cartels have realised this
37:31
and they actually call it Border Patrol, Uber so they can kidnap
37:35
a child. They will drop them off at the
37:38
US border. A private military contractor in
37:40
the mate, billions, literally billions with AB over doing
37:44
this, will take them into the United States, drop them off and
37:47
under the Office of Refugee Resettlement.
37:49
And then that office will not screen the sponsors and hand
37:54
them right back to the cartels. So I don't know how big a soccer
37:59
pitch is, don't get me wrong, but think of the biggest one
38:01
that you have. There are 73 thousand children
38:05
that are still missing 73,000 That is enough to fill every
38:09
seat in a soccer stadium are missing in the United States
38:14
because the cartels figured out our process was so broken that
38:18
they could exploit it and take advantage of it.
38:22
That, that is a horrific tale. What I mean, is there any sort
38:28
of mainstream, either media or political engagement with this?
38:34
No, nobody wants to touch it. Sadly, nobody wants to touch.
38:37
Now, what you do see is you see bits and pieces.
38:39
A lot of people will talk about the, the nonprofit's under the
38:43
Office of Refugee Resettlement and, and there, there has been
38:48
publicly that, yes, we had, I mean, initially we lost 350,000
38:52
of these kids, 350,000. I mean, that's insane.
38:55
So now they found the vast majority of those, which is
38:58
good, they actually went to their sponsors, but nobody wants
39:01
to touch this. And and it's not that they're
39:03
not looking at the children or the nonprofits that handed these
39:08
kids off. Nobody wants to talk about the
39:11
private military contractors that were doing this job that is
39:14
essentially trafficking children into the United States.
39:17
Now, I would say about a month ago, there was a big bust and
39:21
immigration bust in California in a marijuana growing facility.
39:25
They had 18 unaccompanied minors that were there.
39:28
So where the where were these kids being sold?
39:31
It's well documented. They're being sold into labour,
39:33
they're being sold into sex trafficking.
39:35
They're being, I mean, most of them, let's be honest, you're
39:38
not going to find most of them. You don't know what happened.
39:41
But from a cartel perspective, if I can get somebody into the
39:45
United States using Border Patrol, Uber, I can use that
39:50
individual for years or decades. The return on investment is much
39:56
higher smuggling individuals over a long term than bringing
40:00
in narcotics, which have a huge which, which if you get caught
40:05
with, you're going to go to gaol, but nobody's getting
40:08
caught because you're using the system to traffic these minors.
40:11
And, and it really is just kind of a sad state of affairs that
40:15
we've outsourced the morality of moving children and giving
40:18
children. To their family, now you're now.
40:21
Now if I'm a cartel, I'll tell you exactly what happens.
40:25
I take those kids in the United States, I reach back out to
40:27
their family and say, hey, if you pay me $25,000, I'll give
40:31
you your kid back. Great.
40:33
They pay them $25,000. Now they say, ah, give me
40:36
another $25,000 so they can extort the families back home.
40:39
And if the families don't pay extra, then I can sell that kid
40:43
into labour or sex trafficking or anything.
40:46
You'll never see that child again.
40:50
OK. Dude, it is.
40:53
It is. It's absolutely gross.
40:56
Now, look, private military contractors have always been in
40:58
that grey area. Like this is scummy and I don't
41:02
know why anybody would take this job.
41:05
I've asked and people say, well, I got to make my mortgage like
41:07
it is. It is scummy and I'll call them
41:10
out to their face. Yeah.
41:13
Well, that that that was what I was going to ask about.
41:15
I mean how is it that because you know people who are taking
41:20
part in this can't not know numbers, I mean of sort of PMCS
41:28
the the operation that's actually making this happen, do
41:30
you have any idea how many are involved in it ballpark?
41:35
No. And and that's the problem with
41:37
using a company, right? A company.
41:39
I can't use a Freedom of Information act to say, hey,
41:41
company, what is the only thing I can find is what the what the
41:46
contracts actually paid out. So I've been able to find what
41:49
the contracts pay out. I've been able to find the job
41:52
postings. I look, if you're on the
41:54
Internet right now, go to MVM careers, Mike Victor, my careers
41:57
and I guarantee that there is a job posting right now that says
42:00
youth travel coordinator, which means I'm trafficking kids into
42:04
the United States from the US Mexico border.
42:06
So I look, companies make money like that's all there is to it.
42:13
This is like the scummiest thing ever.
42:16
And, and I don't blame the company as much as I blame the
42:19
government for not actually having the resources to do this
42:22
themselves. And I also blame the people that
42:24
are on the ground that were moving these kids because
42:26
there's no way that you were sitting there with 30 kids,
42:30
getting on a charter flight, flying them to a random podunk
42:33
airport in the middle of the United States, dropping them off
42:37
with their paperwork and saying, all right, I did my job.
42:40
These kids are going to go to a great home.
42:41
Like, you know, something is wrong when the your Spidey
42:47
senses should be tingling that something is wrong.
42:50
And for them to sit there and say I didn't know, I think it's
42:53
just just a way to help them sleep at night.
42:57
Yeah, I mean, you know, you've used the phrase again
43:00
outsourcing morality and and and that's why I entitled the
43:04
previous interview Outsourcing Morality because I thought it
43:06
really just it it struck to the heart of what it is you are
43:10
talking about. Now what I want to ask is one of
43:13
the big talking points then quite rightly was your book,
43:16
which you have neatly positioned behind you.
43:19
So for anyone, anyone not watching but listening, Morgan
43:22
has written an excellent book called Guns, Girls and Greed.
43:24
Now we talked about it then because it was it was fairly
43:27
fresh out and you know, we sort of went through parts of it.
43:31
Now 18 months has elapsed. What has the reaction been?
43:36
What, what possible fallout has happened?
43:38
I mean, you know what, what's happened?
43:40
You, you said some stuff in that that there was not, I imagine
43:43
not going to go down well in certain quarters.
43:45
What has happened? Yeah.
43:48
And, you know, I wrote the book very candidly.
43:52
And at the end of the day, the reader can sit there and they
43:54
say, was this a value add or was this such attraction to the war?
43:58
Like it, like at the end of the day, the reader can decide.
44:00
Now what happens is, is that, you know, a lot of the former
44:04
contractors will read it. And most of them are great guys.
44:07
Most of them were like, yeah, that's how it was.
44:08
Like, that was the early days. We were literally building the
44:11
plane as we flew it, right? Like like we were just making
44:14
stuff as up as we went. Now got more professional as it
44:17
went along. But at the end of the day, I, I
44:19
can't write about that because I wasn't there.
44:21
A lot of the people are pissed that I use the term mercenary
44:25
because they want to make it pretend like they were it was
44:28
their patriotic duty. They were over there as patriots
44:31
and do the money was just a side thing.
44:34
Now look, I don't I don't care how you look yourself in the
44:37
mirror. At the end of the day, I was
44:38
there for money. I can only speak from my
44:40
experience when I came out with the article about Gaza saying
44:44
that those guys are mercenaries, man, they were livid.
44:47
Everybody it, it, it, my buddies were like, holy crap, Morgan,
44:51
what is this? And I was like, you guys are
44:52
mercenaries and, and they'd get pissed off initially because
44:54
there's negative connotations to that.
44:57
But at the end of the day, I think if you meet the legal
45:00
definition, go make your money, but don't sit there and lie to
45:03
yourself. Like that's, that's what I don't
45:05
understand. So, so yeah, there's been,
45:07
there's been quite a bit of fallout.
45:08
People say all the stuff in my book, it's all lies and I made
45:11
it up and all this other stuff. But I've, I've offered, hey,
45:14
come on a podcast and tell me what I lied about.
45:16
I'm happy to sit here and debate it.
45:18
Nobody will do it. So, you know, and I don't know
45:21
if the UK has this, but the veteran community kind of eats
45:25
its own. You see this with, with all the
45:28
stuff that's going on with Tim Kennedy, the private military
45:31
contractor takes that to a next level.
45:33
Like if you say anything against Blackwater or private military
45:36
contractors, like they, they, they chew you up and spit you
45:41
out. So I just happen to be the voice
45:43
that it makes them all mad and they get on Facebook and get
45:46
angry and, and it's it's like, it's like a bunch of grumpy old
45:50
men having coffee. They're like back in my day.
45:53
And this Morgan guy is probably a wimp.
45:54
Like who cares man? OK.
45:57
So on on the other side of has anyone surprising kind of come
46:01
out of the woodwork to to congratulate you on doing
46:04
something that frankly no one else had done?
46:07
Yeah, most of the guys that read the book are like, look, it's
46:09
it's good. It's legitimate.
46:10
You were 23 years old. Like you, you, you wrote it from
46:14
your perspective and it makes a whole lot of sense.
46:17
And I would say that's 90% of the Blackwater guys.
46:20
It's that vocal 10% that are that are butt hurt.
46:23
Now Blackwater, of course, is Eric Prince has not
46:26
congratulated me on my book. I'm waiting.
46:29
I'm waiting for his for his nice email or whatever.
46:32
But you know, I it's, it is what it is.
46:36
It's a war novel at the very ground level.
46:39
The way that a Pfc sees war is different than the way that a
46:43
general sees war. The way that I saw Blackwater is
46:45
completely different than the way Eric Prince saw Blackwater
46:47
from his, you know, big nice office in Moyock, NC.
46:51
It's just life. So, you know, if people want to
46:54
get butthurt about it, it's, it's not, it's not going to
46:57
change anything that I do. Fair enough.
47:00
And you've been writing a bit since, I mean, a few sort of
47:03
articles here and there. Are you considering the idea of
47:06
another book? Yeah, you know, the return on
47:10
investment of books is not, is not that high.
47:12
I'll be honest with you. You put in a lot of time and
47:15
energy and love and blood and sweat and tears if you get a
47:18
paper cut. So I don't know, I, I, I would
47:21
love to finish the book that I started looking at veteran
47:25
suicide and why people kind of take that final out.
47:29
Because what I've seen is that a lot of people say, well, they
47:32
were in the military, whether they went to Iraq or not.
47:35
Oh my God. Like that's the reason why they
47:37
they shot themselves. It's not usually it's not that
47:40
cut and dry and, and it's a lot more complex.
47:43
So my, my, my thesis of the book is you take a bunch of people at
47:47
the same time doing the same job and the same attack.
47:50
And why do some people make it out and some people decide that
47:53
that they're going to end their life later.
47:55
So I'm about 2/3 of the way done.
47:56
I should probably just start planking away at it.
47:58
But let's be honest here. If I was writing books to to
48:01
retire, I think by 2187 I'll be retired.
48:07
We'll have you back on then. But tell me they, I mean, it's
48:11
obviously unless it's too much of A spoiler.
48:14
I mean, do you have a, do you have a sort of working
48:16
hypothesis on that, on the answer to your question?
48:20
Yeah, I think it's how much you internalise it.
48:27
I know I I talked to people. I talked to one guy and he was
48:30
like, Oh my God, my Humvee, we parked over the top of a grenade
48:34
and like, like this was, this was like they were very stressed
48:37
out about it. And I was like, did it blow up?
48:38
And I said, no, it didn't blow up.
48:39
And I was like, well, I walked next to a bullet the other day
48:42
and it didn't, it didn't hit me either.
48:45
I, I think a lot of people will take their time in the military
48:49
and they'll, they'll personalise it.
48:51
They'll say they were shooting at me, they were attacking me.
48:54
Those rockets were aimed at me. I'm the opposite.
48:57
I'm like, look, the Rockets came in, they got pretty close.
48:59
And I mean, you can read about it in the book.
49:01
Nothing is personal, right? It's not personal when I smash
49:04
your car and it's not personal when you lob a rocket at me.
49:06
It's just luck of the draw. So I, I think a lot of people,
49:10
when you start getting into that cycle of they were trying to
49:15
attack me, it, it's, it's, it's scary.
49:17
It's absolutely scary. And I think a lot of people have
49:19
a hard time living with that. And then you start throwing in
49:22
the culture of the military where you know, you don't talk
49:25
about it, you shut up and you drink your sorrows away.
49:28
It's, it's a recipe for disaster.
49:29
I, I've known a lot of people that committed suicide,
49:32
especially in Blackwater. And I would say that substance
49:36
abuse is is a leading factor in why, not necessarily why, but
49:42
when they decided to finally do it that that definitely played a
49:46
role. Yeah, well, I mean, it's a very
49:49
sombre subject, but I mean, I, I really do hope you do carry on
49:53
writing because I think that's something that people need to
49:55
read because I think unless you are part of that part of that
50:00
sort of element of society, it's very difficult to to understand.
50:04
And I can, I can absolutely echo what you're talking about on on
50:07
this side of the Atlantic. It is a, it is a consistent
50:10
problem actually, not just in the best from community, but
50:12
also in the serving, you know, in the serving environment, a
50:16
very well disproportionately high number of suicides for all
50:21
kinds of reasons. Now let's get on to something
50:24
with with regard to that. What's your view?
50:26
Because you you spoke about it last time, you made a
50:29
distinction between effectively the rank of captain and below
50:33
and everybody above as being sort of generally useless.
50:38
The what exactly what you're talking about with the sort of
50:40
this personification of anxiety, you know, it's all about self.
50:47
Is there a, is there a leadership function that could
50:51
or should deal with this in, in the chain of command on the, on
50:57
the military side? I'm not, you're not talking
50:59
about PMC side because I know that's, that's separate issue.
51:01
We've talked about that there's basically no support.
51:03
But within the military context, is there, you know, can a finger
51:06
be pointed at such and such a an ability or sorry, a failing of
51:13
commanders in general to deal with exactly these sorts of
51:17
problems with their troops? You know, I mean, just just from
51:20
my perspective, a lot of people, a lot of military leadership,
51:26
when you go overseas, I feel like they put undue stress on
51:30
their junior enlisted. And look, I don't think it's on
51:34
purpose, but you, I, I, I don't know if you were junior
51:40
enlisted, but I can tell you that like, you will sit there
51:43
and you will wait and you will be bored.
51:45
And then it'll be like the dumbest little thing and people
51:48
will just have a, a fit about it, right.
51:49
So let's just take water as an example.
51:52
Everybody's got water and then everybody's got to go and check
51:55
their buddy to make sure that they have water.
51:56
And one guy doesn't have enough water in his canteen.
51:59
And then everybody's getting punished because one guy didn't
52:01
fill up his canteen even though we had another canteen.
52:04
So I think the military puts a lot of undue stress on junior
52:08
unlisted worrying about and punishing little stupid things.
52:13
Look, I'll give you an example. I had a soldier that had a
52:15
negligent discharge. And I was like, look, look, I
52:21
was, I was a Lieutenant. So I shouldn't be the one that's
52:23
training you on weapons, right? That should be your sergeants.
52:25
He'd never been trained on the 249.
52:27
He had a negligent discharge. So my command, we went up there
52:31
and my battalion commander was like, we're going to do, we're
52:33
going to do an article 15. And I said, if you're going to
52:35
do an article 15, it starts with me and then it's got to go
52:38
through all my Ncos because they didn't train him on his weapon.
52:41
You're not going to go after this Pfc because he's, he's an
52:44
easy target. And and I think that that's how
52:46
a lot of that's why you have the E 4 Mafia.
52:48
That's why you have a lot of these junior enlisted that are
52:51
frustrated with the military is because somebody on their high
52:55
horse will sit there and say that shouldn't have happened,
52:57
but not actually look at why did that happen.
53:00
So I had to train my Ncos on how to use a 249 who had to go and
53:03
train him on how to do 4249. And at the end of the day, like
53:08
I, there was like a letter of reprimand or something stupid
53:11
that went down. But I, I don't know that there's
53:14
a lot of military officers that that would put their neck out
53:16
like that. I knew I was getting out.
53:18
I didn't care. But a lot of military officers
53:21
just kind of say, this is how it's always been.
53:23
This is how we're going to do it.
53:24
And we're going to stress the hell out of everybody.
53:26
And when you do that every day for 365 days and these soldiers
53:31
come back with this elevated stress level, are you shocked
53:35
that they're trying to find a way out, whether that's through
53:37
alcohol or through suicide? Like you can't be that shocked
53:39
by it. No, no.
53:42
And I mean, I think you're absolutely right.
53:44
The majority of people certainly in serving capacity would not
53:49
have done exactly what it is that you describe.
53:51
Now. I wonder if we can just now move
53:55
sort of in a way to begin to wrap up.
53:59
And I'm going to put you on the spot to a certain extent.
54:02
But clearly, you know, you keep up with what's going on.
54:05
You have a you have a deep and personal knowledge of PMCS and
54:09
the way they operate. Are you looking at any
54:11
particular situation now, interwoven and interlinked as
54:14
they all are? But are you looking at anything
54:16
now that PMCS are involved in and imagining that it will tip
54:22
over into a larger scale conflict and and if so, where?
54:29
I mean, Ukraine is the easy answer.
54:31
Let's be honest, the the Ukraine with the minerals and, and being
54:35
able to get Vectis under Eric Prince and and having U.S.
54:38
military members on the ground or not military members PM CS on
54:41
the ground. That's that's the easy answer.
54:43
I think the harder answer is Africa, especially like DRC.
54:48
That's where Eric Prince is doing also the minerals deal and
54:53
being able to collect taxes. And I, I think I don't think
54:57
it's an enemy as much as it is the local, how's the local
55:00
population going to see these individuals?
55:04
Haiti's the same way. I mean, how are the gang
55:06
members? Do you expect the gang members,
55:07
gang members to say, hey, don't worry, we got these private
55:10
military contractors that are securing port au Prince.
55:12
That's fine. We'll give up all of our
55:14
territory. So I, I think that's where it's
55:16
going to kick off and it's going to be the locals that, that get
55:20
frustrated and say we've been running the show for how long
55:24
and now you're going to come in and try to change it.
55:26
It's, it's never going to work. And I, I think you'll see some,
55:30
I think you're going to, you're going to have to see some
55:32
casualties before anybody even takes a look at it.
55:34
And that's the sad part is it'll probably take 567 of those
55:37
casualties before anybody even does a news report on it.
55:42
Yeah, that's probably, that's probably exactly, exactly the
55:45
way it would be. And on that, on sort of numbers,
55:49
you know, you spoke earlier about the enormous discrepancy
55:53
in rates of pay between being serving military and and being a
55:56
PMC. If if something does kick off
56:00
and either you know, NATO, let's say, or indeed a non NATO but
56:08
largely sort of NATO orientated coalition doesn't doesn't really
56:12
matter if if those armed forces are to get engaged in some
56:16
respect, let's say in Ukraine, Do you see that being a, an
56:22
exodus from armed forces into PMC simply because of the money?
56:26
Is that is that a sort of a phenomenon or does it, does it
56:28
not quite work like that? It doesn't work like that.
56:32
I can tell you that when I was in Iraq, people would always
56:35
say, oh, I want to come work for Blackwater and I'd give my email
56:37
address. I'd never hear from him again.
56:39
Because the military gives you stability.
56:43
It gives you a paycheck on the 1st and 15th.
56:45
It gives you your medical, your family, your housing, all those
56:49
other things. As a private military
56:50
contractor, you really have to be like, I don't want to be in
56:54
the military and I want to make a crap tonne of money.
56:57
But the problem with it is, is that the second that you leave
57:02
that country, your paycheck is done.
57:06
So. So I haven't seen that happen
57:08
the way that there was a concern for it.
57:10
I do think what you might see is the private military
57:14
contractors, some of the guys that I worked at Blackwater
57:17
actually like working as PMC still 20 years later.
57:19
It's insane. But I think that you'll see some
57:24
PMCS where they'll go in and they'll say, look, I'm going to
57:27
do this for two, 3-4 months and be done with it.
57:29
And then some people say this is a viable career field.
57:32
And that's insane to me. The fact that at this point you
57:35
can get out of the military and you can say I could be a PMC for
57:38
the rest of my life and then I'll retire as a private
57:40
military contractor. But I will say, I mean, it's
57:43
hard on the family life. So if you want to do, if you
57:46
want to have wife and kids and all that other stuff like it is
57:48
not, it's not an easy job. So, so I, I don't think that the
57:51
military is having people yanked out of it necessarily to be
57:55
PMCS. But I would say that there,
57:59
there there's a draw, that money sounds really good, that it is
58:03
tasty. Yeah, it is evidently.
58:06
And, and you know, your experiences bear that out.
58:09
And I think it's especially interesting, of course, that you
58:13
have had those military experiences sandwiching your own
58:18
in in Iraq. Just just to sort of finish up,
58:22
I guess what I suppose actually I, I think I, I asked you this
58:28
last time, but, but specifically with PMCS, I mean, what would
58:32
you say to anyone now who is say of, you know, military joining
58:38
age and they were considering one route or the other military
58:43
or PMC, If it was just to be a short period of time and they
58:46
wanted to, you know, to do something kind of active and
58:49
interesting, what would you say? Well, I mean, you're not going
58:53
to get into APMC unless you put in your military time or a
58:56
police officer. So.
58:57
So of course, now, now let's pretend like you could go one or
59:00
the other. What I say is set a goal.
59:04
If you want to have wife and kids and stability, go into the
59:08
military. If you want quick money and the
59:11
PMC side, set a goal. Whether it's paying off your
59:14
house $200,000 in the bank, paying off student loans,
59:18
whatever it is, set a goal. And the reason is you want to be
59:22
at a point after you've done it for, let's say a year to say, do
59:25
I want to go back or do I have to go back?
59:29
And I'm a have to go back guy, right?
59:30
I came home, I blew all my money and I had to go back for, for
59:33
more to, to be able to, you know, pay my mortgage.
59:37
So if you set that goal and you reach it, then it just, it
59:40
changes your, your paradigm to say, I don't have to go back.
59:43
I want to and I will, but I don't have to.
59:46
And a lot of people, what they did, they did it the same way I
59:49
did, where they have to go back. And I mean, I've had people
59:53
reach out to me that have been contracting for 10-15 years and
59:56
saying I don't have anything at home.
59:57
I literally don't have anything. I have to have this job.
1:00:01
I need it. You never want to be in that
1:00:03
position. Yeah, a cautionary tale and I
1:00:07
think we'll we'll draw to a close there.
1:00:09
Are you about to add something else?
1:00:10
No, it is a cautionary. I mean, my entire book is a
1:00:13
cautionary. Tale.
1:00:14
Yeah, well, that's it. So, So what we'll do is we'll
1:00:16
just, we'll wrap up by saying if you haven't read Morgan's book,
1:00:19
Guns, Girls and Greed, then do Morgan, where, where can we get
1:00:23
your book? Amazon.
1:00:25
The easiest place to get it is on Amazon.
1:00:27
It's also on audio. So a comedian named Jay Moore
1:00:32
did the audio and he look, if you can have a funny war book,
1:00:35
this is a funny war book and he hit all the punch lines.
1:00:39
So if you're not into reading and you want to listen to it,
1:00:41
the audio, everything's out there.
1:00:43
Amazon, Spotify, you you name it.
1:00:45
Perfect it is and I must say it is a funny war, but but it's got
1:00:48
some really serious, really, really well considered points in
1:00:51
it. So, so huge recommendation that
1:00:53
also anywhere else that you're writing, and I know you're on
1:00:56
social media too. I've been writing for Skill Set
1:00:59
magazine and it's a lot like the book.
1:01:01
I just, you know, take a subject and I, I make jokes about it,
1:01:04
but I try to give you some actual information on, on ways
1:01:08
to, you know, avoid terrorist attacks and, and protect your
1:01:11
house and stuff like that. So.
1:01:13
OK. And then Twitter is it sorry X
1:01:16
these. Days yes, I am at Blackwater
1:01:19
dude and the number one because I'm the Blackwater dude right So
1:01:23
X Instagram and TikTok at Blackwater dude one.
1:01:27
Super. OK, Well, yet again, Morgan,
1:01:29
it's been a pleasure to have you on and a total sort of roller
1:01:33
coaster, but a very insightful one at that.
1:01:35
So thank you very much indeed and please do come back.
1:01:39
All right. Thanks so much, Charles.