Latest / The Breakfast Club / INTERVIEW: Mehdi Hasan Talks 'Win Every Argument,' Israel-Hamas, Genocide, Trump, Dems, NY Mayoral Race + More

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INTERVIEW: Mehdi Hasan Talks 'Win Every Argument,' Israel-Hamas, Genocide, Trump, Dems, NY Mayoral Race + More · The Breakfast Club

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know every day a wait, click your ass
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: up the breakfast club.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: You don't finish for y'all done morning.
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  Speaker 3: Everybody is DJ Envy Jess Hilarious, Charlamage, the guy we
• 0:11
  Speaker 3: are the breakfast Club. Law La Rosa is here as well.
• 0:14
  Speaker 3: We got a special guest in the building. Yes, indeed,
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: right up, broadcaster.
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  Speaker 4: MINDI Hussan, welcome, thanks for having me. How you feeling
• 0:21
  Speaker 4: feeling tired?
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Tired?
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  Speaker 1: So I'm not a morning person. I could never I
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: could never do a show called anything breakfast related.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: What are you time to usually wake up?
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  Speaker 1: I mean I wake up early. I just don't get
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: going til later in the day and I do my
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  Speaker 1: best work.
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  Speaker 3: Got you and you see the funny thing, I'm opposite
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  Speaker 3: at about ten eleven. That's when my eyes start going really, really,
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  Speaker 3: really low, when it's time to get take my little nap.
• 0:43
  Speaker 5: I know you don't have a lot of time, so
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  Speaker 5: I did a lot of questions I want to ask you.
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  Speaker 5: I want to start off. In the past twenty four hours,
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  Speaker 5: Israel has bombed Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, Qatar.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: No missing somebody, Tunicia, Denisa, what is that about?
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  Speaker 1: What it's about is it's one country in the Middle
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  Speaker 1: East that doesn't have to abide by the rules that
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  Speaker 1: everyone else follows. There is no red line. They are
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  Speaker 1: if there were any other country in the Middle East,
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  Speaker 1: if they were Arab country or Muslim country, we would
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  Speaker 1: be calling them a rogue nation because they just bombed,
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  Speaker 1: as you said, multiple sovereign countries, many of which would
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  Speaker 1: not attack them. Tunisia didn't do anything to them. They
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  Speaker 1: bombed the Flotillian Tunia. And that's just in the last
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  Speaker 1: couple of days. You go back further, they've bombed Iran,
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  Speaker 1: and Iraq and Yemen, Syria. So they've bombed I think
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  Speaker 1: around nine different places in the Middle East over the
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  Speaker 1: last year, which I can't think of any other country
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  Speaker 1: in the world that has done that in modern times.
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  Speaker 4: So why why no penalty?
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  Speaker 2: I don't want to know why period.
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  Speaker 1: So why they're doing it? Know, we know, we know
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  Speaker 1: why they're doing it. They currently they are run by
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: the most far right government in their history, which is
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: super belligerent, super aggressive, has people like Bizalo Smotrish, the
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  Speaker 1: finance minister, who talks openly of greater Israel, wants to
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: have Israel with even bigger borders than the occupied territories
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  Speaker 1: they have and why are they're getting away with it?
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  Speaker 1: Because of our leaders in Washington, DC, where I'm based,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: because of the President of the United States, Donald Trump,
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  Speaker 1: because of Congress, and because of both parties in Congress.
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  Speaker 1: That's been clear when it comes to Israel. I know,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: every other issue in America is like Democrat versus Republican,
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  Speaker 1: red versus Blue, not on Israel. On Israel, it's a
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  Speaker 1: bipartisan consensus. Joe Biden let him do whatever he wants.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump lets him do whatever he wants.
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  Speaker 5: Why did they The guitar thing was interesting because why
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: did they barbatar didn' Qatar.
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  Speaker 2: Give Trump a plane? And didn't the say they want
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  Speaker 2: to invest in a trillion dollars.
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  Speaker 1: But they did give him a plane. They are doing
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: a golf course with Eric Trump. They are a very
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  Speaker 1: close ally of the United States. They host the US
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  Speaker 1: military base is in Qatar. Think about that. The United
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: States clearly signed off on a military strike on an
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: allied country where like ten thousand American troops are based,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: which is kind of insane if you think about it.
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  Speaker 1: No matter what you do, you can host an American
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  Speaker 1: military base, You can give the president a plane, you
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  Speaker 1: can host his family golf course, you can be really
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: close allies. But if Israel wants to bomb you, the
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: United States will let Israel bomb You think about.
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  Speaker 2: How insane do but I'm still trying to wrap my mind.
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  Speaker 1: Well, they're reasoning for qata was we want to take
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  Speaker 1: out the Hamas leadership, which is based in Qatar. What
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  Speaker 1: they omit to mention is that the Qatar leader the
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  Speaker 1: Hamas leadership in Kataka is the United States government asked
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  Speaker 1: for them to be in Kada. Barack Obama in twenty
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  Speaker 1: eleven said, I want you guys, I want He said,
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  Speaker 1: I want you guys to host Hamas. I don't want
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  Speaker 1: a musk to go to Iran. I want them to
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  Speaker 1: be somewhere we can talk to them. So the Qataris
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  Speaker 1: have always hosted Humas, but with US and Israeli approval,
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  Speaker 1: they don't tell you that when they're bullshitting.
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  Speaker 2: So there is Hamas leadership in Qatar.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, no one's ever hidden. That's where they negotiate. That's
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  Speaker 1: where and by the way, these guys were meeting when
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  Speaker 1: they were attacked to discuss a ceasefi deal, which is
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: another reminder that Israel and net and Yahun spokes don't
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  Speaker 1: want a ceasefi. Every time there's a negotiation for a SEISFA,
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  Speaker 1: they attacked the negotiators. Last year, they killed Ismail Haney,
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  Speaker 1: a leader of Hamas in Tehran. The guy was in
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  Speaker 1: the middle of negotiations for a ceasefire. They killed him
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  Speaker 1: in Iran. Remember they bombed Iran the other day. One
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: of the people they targeted was a guy called Ali Shamkhani.
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  Speaker 1: He went on NBC News just two weeks earlier and said,
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  Speaker 1: I'm up for a deal with Donald Trump. We can
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  Speaker 1: do a nuclear deal. They bombed him. Why would you
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  Speaker 1: bomb people who are negotiating peace steals and sees flies
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  Speaker 1: unless you don't want peace deals and ceespa by Whitney
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: want peace deal, Why wouldn't they because that constrains their vision.
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  Speaker 1: Their vision is we should have no rules. We shouldn't
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  Speaker 1: have to stop fighting for anyone else. We want to
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  Speaker 1: continue the war. Matthew Miller, who was Joe Biden State
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: Obomba spokesman, said recently that when he was in government
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: he heard Netanyal who say this war will go on
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  Speaker 1: for decades. So he use decades long war.
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  Speaker 2: So if Hama's leadership is there is that justify the bombing.
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  Speaker 1: No, because they're there because we wanted them there. And
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  Speaker 1: you can't just bomb any sovereign country where there's people
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  Speaker 1: you don't like or you're opposed to. I mean, this
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  Speaker 1: is a very dangerous road we've gone down over the
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  Speaker 1: last couple of years. Right, We've burned down international law,
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  Speaker 1: the Geneva Conventions, all the norms and precedents. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: you don't think people around the world are watching this
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  Speaker 1: saying why can I do what Israel does? Like all
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: the the idea that We're going to go to Russia
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  Speaker 1: and be like, you can't bomb hospitals in Ukraine. Putn't
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  Speaker 1: say why is rack and bomb hospitals and bombing terrorists
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  Speaker 1: in those hospitals. Like the arguments that they've deployed to
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  Speaker 1: justify torture, the bombing of civilian areas that can be
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: replicated by every quote unquote rogue state in the world.
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  Speaker 1: Why not very dangerous? Right? We spent seventy years of the
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  Speaker 1: United States in the UK the way building up the international order.
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  Speaker 1: It's all been burned down over the last two years
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  Speaker 1: for one guy.
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  Speaker 2: Now, now, Bin Shapiro was here earlier this week and
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  Speaker 2: you hit.
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  Speaker 5: Me start laughing like that, Why you gave a BS
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  Speaker 5: answer on genocide?
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, what exactly what you want? We have a clip.
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  Speaker 2: You don't think what's happening in God is a genocide?
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  Speaker 4: Correct?
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  Speaker 2: Okay, But the world's.
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  Speaker 5: Leading association of genocide scholars has declared that Israel.
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  Speaker 2: Is committing genocide and God. That based off the pure
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  Speaker 2: definition of.
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  Speaker 1: Well, it's not.
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  Speaker 6: Actually, if you if you read their actual study, it's
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  Speaker 6: not based on the quot unquote pure definition of genocide.
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  Speaker 6: They don't atually even define genocide in the document. The
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  Speaker 6: question is not whether some sort of coterie of people
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  Speaker 6: who call themselves experts in an issue are a quote
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  Speaker 6: unquote experts on the issue. The question is whether the
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  Speaker 6: definition is met. The definition of genocide is not met
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  Speaker 6: in Gaza by any stretch of the imagination. And you
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  Speaker 6: can cite to me, you know a group that I
• 6:01
  Speaker 6: hadn't heard of until two seconds ago, and nobody had
• 6:03
  Speaker 6: heard of until two seconds ago, that voted in a
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  Speaker 6: particular way. That doesn't make a difference definitionally.
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  Speaker 2: So what does a genocide do?
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  Speaker 6: A genocide is the attempt to forcibly destroy an entire population,
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  Speaker 6: which is not what has happened, So it's.
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  Speaker 5: Not the attacks on like the personal facilities needed for
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  Speaker 5: like survival, like healthcare and educational institutions.
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  Speaker 6: Well, Israel has shipped in more humanitarian aid into the
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  Speaker 6: Gaza Strip than literally any army to in a population
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  Speaker 6: that supports the enemy in literally all of human history.
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  Speaker 6: They've been shipping in about forty four hundred calories per
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  Speaker 6: day per person into the Gaza Strip in the middle
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  Speaker 6: of a war in which the enemy is holding actual
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  Speaker 6: Israeli hostages underground, who, as we've seen from some of
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  Speaker 6: the pictures, are actually starving.
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  Speaker 4: Man, he's going crazy over there.
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  Speaker 1: Cal I think you're being generous. You said he gave
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  Speaker 1: you some bullshit on Genesis. He gave you bush on
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  Speaker 1: the whole topic. Right. He said, we don't give them
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  Speaker 1: that much money. We give them three billion a year.
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  Speaker 1: We actually give them close to four billion a year,
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  Speaker 1: and last year we gave them eighteen billion dollars a year.
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  Speaker 1: He said, they've been shipping in age. You just played
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  Speaker 1: that de clip. Israel doesn't ship in any aid. The
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: aid comes from everyone else. These acts like Israel's giving
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  Speaker 1: the aid, it's international aid. The Israel decides to switch
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  Speaker 1: on and off whenever it wants. But on the genocide question,
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  Speaker 1: it's funny that he kind of patronizingly says, these genocides scholars,
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  Speaker 1: they didn't give you the definition. You rightly said, what's
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  Speaker 1: the definition? He said, forcibly destroying a whole population, that
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  Speaker 1: is not the definition of genocide. The nineteen forty eight
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  Speaker 1: Genocide Convention gives us the definition of genocide Article two.
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  Speaker 1: It says very clearly that genocide is any of the
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  Speaker 1: following acts with the intent to destroy, in whole or
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  Speaker 1: in part, a national, religious, racial, or ethnic group, and
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  Speaker 1: one of those acts killing members of the group, causing
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  Speaker 1: serious bodily or mental harm to the group, inflicting conditions
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  Speaker 1: of life on a group that causes physical destruction, preventing
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  Speaker 1: births within that group, and taking children away from that
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  Speaker 1: group and giving it to another group five conditions. Israel's
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: met at least four of those five conditions. By any
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  Speaker 1: sane description of what they've done in Gaza, it is
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  Speaker 1: a genocide based on those conditions. These Raelis are saying
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  Speaker 1: it's a genocide. Just listen to what they say. They
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: say genocide or stuff all the time. And here's the
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: worst part. Israeli. You know, he brushes over the IAGS,
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  Speaker 1: some organization I've never heard of. I'm sure they don't
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  Speaker 1: care that he's never heard of them. They are the
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  Speaker 1: International Associations of Genesis calls. But let me just give
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  Speaker 1: for your listeners actual people who say it meets the definition.
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  Speaker 1: People like Oma Bartov, who is the Israeli Holocaust historian.
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  Speaker 1: A Brown wrote a New York Times opens it's a genocide.
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  Speaker 1: Daniel Blackman, Amos Goldberg, Israeli Holocaust historians, the Hebrew University,
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  Speaker 1: they say it's a genocide in Gaza, Schmal Lederman, all
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: these Israeli scholars, Ras Siegel, they none of them, by
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: the way, all of them said we didn't think it
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: was a genocide at the beginning, but we definitely think
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: it's a genocide. Now these are Israeli Jewish experts on
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: the Holocaust. They're saying it's a genocide. We're supposed to
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  Speaker 1: just ignore them.
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  Speaker 2: What determines a genocide.
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: The reason I asked that question is because I feel
• 8:49
  Speaker 5: like most war can be classified as a genocide.
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  Speaker 1: It's the intent, right, Okay, So if you expressed intent
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  Speaker 1: to destroy this group because of who they are, because
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: they're because of their national ethnic really just racial characteristics.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: That's what makes it just a war. Like the Iraqi
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: invasion killed maybe a million people, But most people don't
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  Speaker 1: accuse George Bush of a genocide because the goal was
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: probably oil security, whatever you want to say. It's protecting Israel.
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  Speaker 1: It wasn't to destroy Iraqis for being Iraqis. But here
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: these raely governments saying we want to destroy palestine Is,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: we want to wipe out Gaza, we want to disassemble Gaza,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: to quote Bizalosmotris, leave it in piles of rubble. And
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: it's so interesting when you talk about intent and what
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: makes a genocide of genocide, it's not about killings. Ben
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Shapiro says that the Chinese are guilty of genocide in
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: Shinjang against the wigas right, and I agree with him.
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  Speaker 1: I think it is a genocide in Hinjang. But they
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: haven't mass killed the Vegas. They've locked them up in camps,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: they've tortured them, they've prevented them from using Muslim names,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: they've broken down mosques, intend to destroy a group, but
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: they haven't mass killed them like in Gaza. But Ben
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: says it's a genocide in Hinjng. That's weird. He says
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Syria is a genocide. Even the baschalasaid didn't say anything
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: as close to genocidal as the Israeli government. Bashar al
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: Assad killed around one to two percent of his population
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: for ten years. Nanya, who's killed minimum three percent of
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: the Gaza population in less than two years? So why
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: is Syria a genocide and not Gaza?
• 10:08
  Speaker 5: Ben I saw a lot of Jewish I guess correspondence
• 10:12
  Speaker 5: on YouTube talking about the interview with Shapiro here, and
• 10:15
  Speaker 5: a lot of them were saying that if it was
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: a genocide, Israel could wipe them out in one second.
• 10:21
  Speaker 5: If it was actually they could just take them all
• 10:24
  Speaker 5: out if they wanted to put and it was like,
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: that's why it's not so.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: Piers Morgan used to do that line on me whenever
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: I want on his show. He's like, well, you could
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: just wipe them out. They have nuclear weapons, which they
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: deny having, but they do. What's funny is again, Joe Biden,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: the US government says that Ukraine is a genocide. Vladimir
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Putin could wipe out Ukraine with a nuke tomorrow. Why
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: is that not a factor The Chinese have nukes, they
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: could wipe out the weakest. I mean, it's a dumb
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: argument to say you could kill everyone. We haven't. There's
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: reasons why they haven't killed everyone because they probably think
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: we're not at that point of impunity. Although again smoke
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: Trich Finance minister, what do you say. Last year he
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: said starve everyone in Gaza if I could, morally it's justified,
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: so we can't get away with it. Sadly they are
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: getting away with They have staved a lot of people
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  Speaker 1: in Gaza, so it's a ridiculous argument. So we could
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: kill everyone, that's why it's not a genocide. But the
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: genocide definition isn't killing everyone. There are multiple genocides. As
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: I say Shinjang, people say Ukraine, the roehingas in Myanmar. Right,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: that's a genocide. Most people accept that's a genocide. They
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: didn't kill everyone. They killed I think seventy thousand people horrible,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: But they didn't kill all the roehuingas.
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: They'll never get to a cease fire.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: This had never happened, not anytime soon, unfortunately. I mean,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: who's going to who they're going to do? Is seas
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: far with that have us people? They try to kill.
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: Where are they going to do the cease far in
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Doha that they're bombing. I mean, the Katari said yesterday
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: we're done, We're out of the mediation efforts, which is
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: exactly what these Raelies want. They don't want to see five.
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: But then even when you get rid of Hamas, there's
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: always another organization that pops up. I feel like we've
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: been naming the same organization different thanks.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Because it's not about the organization, right, It's about the conditions.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: It's about There was a great cartoons, very sad cartoon
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: right at the beginning of the after October seventh. They said,
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: if your solution to Hamas is to kill my is
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: to kill this kid's parents, the first thing that kid
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: does is create Hamas two point zero. Right. It's an
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: insane idea that says we're gonna By the way, they
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: apparently killed one of the Hamas leader's sons in this attack,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: didn't kill the actual Humus leadership, who all survived. I
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: believe I read that they killed one of his sons,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: and his wife and kids have been killed in a
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: previous conflict, Like that's how you get people to the table,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: Like it's insane right, you cannot do this to a people,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: and a lot of Israeli generals, by the way, recognize us.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: I could go on forever about how many these ragions
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: have come out and said this isn't working. What we
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: can't just kill our way to victory?
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: What are you telling people in the US.
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: And the reason I say that is, you know, I'm
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: driving into work today and my daughter is supposed to
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: go to the Freedom Tower tomorrow.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: But then they say on the.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: News, you know, we've gotten threats on all the bridges
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: in New York and also the Freedom Tower. So what
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: do you tell the people in here? They'd say, you
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: know what, that has nothing to do with me. Why
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: am I worried about it? Why am I concerned? Why
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: should they be concerned to.
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: Worried about it?
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Many reasons. I mean, first, we should be concerned as
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: human being. Of course, what is happening in Gaza is
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: the greatest tragedy of our lifetime. I was a guy
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: who marched against the Iraq war. I thought it was
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: a horror show. I thought we would never see anything
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: as bad as a rock in my lifetime. Again, Gaza
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: makes Iraq look like a walk in the Park, like
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: the tragedy in Gaza should affect us all as human beings.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: The biggest cohort of child amputees anywhere on planet Earth,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: a child killed every hour every day for the last
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: two years, according to Save the Children. So it's a
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: human tragedy, but also from a self interested point of view.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: Two reasons. One, it's our money doing the bombing, right,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: it's our We paid for those bombs that killed those
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: kids in hospitals and schools and refugee camps and churches
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: and mosques and graveyards. We paid for that, right. Why
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: the hell are we paying for this stuff? Did anyone
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: ask the American people? All the polls show the American
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: public are against this war. Eight percent of Democrats support
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: what Israel is doing in Gaza. Ninety percent of Democrats
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: in Congress support what is doing. Complete disconnect. Our democracy
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: is broken. That's number one. And number two again self interest. Right,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: you don't think that some of these terrorist groups, militant
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: groups are going to take out their anger on the Americans,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, our country back this stuff we're complicit in.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: The US Intelligence has said since day one, we're going
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: to see an increase in terrort threats against our country
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: because of what Israel's doing in Gaza. So there's a selfish,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: self interested reason, there's a financial reason, but above all
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: us the moral reason.
• 14:00
  Speaker 5: I love what you said the first reason as human beings,
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: because that's a conversation I was happening with Ben. That's
• 14:05
  Speaker 5: conversation I had with other people. Whether you call it
• 14:07
  Speaker 5: a war or whether you call it a genocide, can
• 14:08
  Speaker 5: we agree that watching all these civilian casualties, watching all
• 14:12
  Speaker 5: these kids getting killed is wrong?
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Can we start there?
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: And I think what they've done is they've they've got
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: the talking point down so much you can't even did
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: you see the interview that Adam Friedland with Richie tore
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: my guy?
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: That was disgusting.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's just he's crying. True, He's like people
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: are dying. And Richie's like, it's how masters to blame?
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: They've just robotically they they have just got this talking
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: But if your response to someone telling you that a
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: bunch of kids got killed in the school scale a
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: master is to blame, that's your instant knee jer response.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: What kind of human being are you? I think we're
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: seeing a lot of sociopaths, but expose themselves in recent How.
• 14:44
  Speaker 7: Do you make people care about actual people and conditions
• 14:47
  Speaker 7: then if people have these things drilled into Because even
• 14:49
  Speaker 7: when we were talking to Bean Shapiro, that was one
• 14:50
  Speaker 7: of my things that I kind of got, is that
• 14:52
  Speaker 7: he's used to talking about things in a certain way
• 14:55
  Speaker 7: that's so indefinite and it's not certain things aren't just
• 14:58
  Speaker 7: like black and white.
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: What he tas the emotion out of it.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but like and.
• 15:01
  Speaker 7: Not just depending on him, because that happens all across
• 15:04
  Speaker 7: like everywhere you watch these talking heads. How do you
• 15:07
  Speaker 7: get people to go back to the human part of
• 15:09
  Speaker 7: it when you're talking about something like that.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: It's both a simple and a complicated answer. The simple
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: answer is we got to tell their stories. The complicated
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: answer is they've made it hard to tell their stories, right.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: They have killed Palestinian journalists on the ground who are
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: telling stories about what's happening around them. They've killed them
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: with their families. They've prevented foreign journalists from going into Gaza.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: They've killed doctors who work in Palestine. They've prevented foreign
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: doctors again from going back into Gaza. So they don't
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: want eyewitnesses to their crimes. And therefore we can't tell
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the stories. I don't know how many of you saw
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: the Guardian story yesterday where a sniper and it's very
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: simper from Napersville, Illinois, goes to join the Israeli military
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: and is shooting family members one after another. And when
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: he's he was interviewed by someone pretending to be a journalist, sorry,
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: pretending not to be a journalist. He didn't realize he
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: was talking to a journalists and he says, you know,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: I kill this guy, and his brother came to get
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: the body. I shot him too, and he goes, I
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: don't know why he wanted the corps. Why was he
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: obsessed with getting that corpse. I mean, it's cold, but
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: those stories have to be told, right. And by the way,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: that was two brothers who were killed, neither of whom
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: were Haamas medicines. The soldier says, they just crossed an
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: invisible line. They didn't know they weren't supposed to go
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: down that road, so I shot them right. And by
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: the way, when we talk about Palestinians, they're so dehumanized.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: The only way sometimes we can get people to listen
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: to as we say, look how many children they killed?
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: Look how many women they killed. I'm sorry, the men
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: aren't all guilty of a crime either Palestinian. A young
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Palestinian man trying to go to school or work who
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: gets killed, he automatically gets designated, or terrorists because he's
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: a combat age man. No, they've killed many, many innocent
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: young men. By the way, the father also went to
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: get his two sons bodies. They shot him too. So
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: this is these are the stories we have to tell
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: because Americans. I believe that Americans are fundamentally good people,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: and I believe Americans don't want this happening in their name.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: They just don't know a lot of them.
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: I think we don't want our tax VID dollars going
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: towards it, and I think we're just desensitized the war.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: That's why I think during the violence in general, in
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: this in general, but that's why I.
• 16:53
  Speaker 5: Think during the Vietnam War was so impactful when they
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: were able to show the images of what was happening,
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: because you know, you might hear two three million people
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: get killed, which is ridiculous, but when you see it
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: and realize, oh, you are just regular civilians, or even
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: the words we use when they would say insurgents like
• 17:09
  Speaker 5: insurgents in Iraq got killed.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Like it's like, you know, we dehumanize people.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: And everything becomes hamas. Right I did. I did a
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: list for sea for my drugs about a year ago.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Like everyone and everything that is hamassd. Now like anyone
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: who said it, you're a hammasd. You and Hammas Save
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: the children, ox Fam Hammas, like charities Hammas. Any foreign
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: government that says anything about is Hammas. I interviewed Miss
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: Rachel like YouTube child star, She's she's Hammas. Everyone is hamas,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: Like it is ridiculous. Right If Miss Rachel is Hamas,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: then you've lost the argument your book.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: I haven't got a chance to redtaiate. You just gave
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: it to me this one. But win the art of
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: debating every persuading and argument.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: That's the stupid cover that makes you look it's actually
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: win every argument with the way it's it looks like that.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: That's one of the funny things.
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: Okay, I don't want to argue and I don't want
• 17:58
  Speaker 5: to win argument.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: I just want to learn. Yeah, so why do you
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: think arguing is the I mean, you end up doing
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: it anyway, but.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you end up doing it anyway. So that's
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: one thing you can't avoid. It is one thing I say,
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: whether you want to avoid an argument, you can't. Therefore
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: you should be equipped for It's a book. It's a
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: very practical book about skills, debating skills and arguing skills.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: But also I do think arguing gets a bad rap, right.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: There's bad faith argument, people who argue for the sake
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: of arguing, people who argue without really believing what they're saying.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: A lot of cable news talking heads that have given
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: argument a bad rap. But argument fundamentally, intrinsically is about
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: disagreeing in good faith, trying to come to a conclusion.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: I would argue that you can't find the truth unless
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: you have a back and forth. We don't want to
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: live in echo chambers where everyone agrees with each other
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: all the time. We should have healthy debate, productive debate.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: That is how people discover truth new ideas. I do
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: think democracy requires healthy debate and argument. Going back to
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: ancient Greece, you're having people have at flesh out the issues,
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: but it has to be done in good faith. What
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: we've done in the US, especially and especially in our
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: cable news world. I'm an XMSNBC host We have a
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: lot of bad faith argument, a lot of fake debates,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: and I think that's undermined. And this book is about saying,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: you know what, arguing can be fun. People who do
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: debate club in high school kids love some kids love
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: doing that because it can be so pure and so
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: raw and so authentic. But we've lost that. Our media
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: has killed what was good faith debate and argument, and
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: this book is an attempt to try and bring it back.
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: How do you know when you're in one? How do
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: you know when you're in a healthy debate, a good
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: faith debate.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: That's a good question. It's hard sometimes I realize halfway through.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: I did the Jubilee debate onto, which was insane. I
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: went into that obviously I knew there were going to
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: be some bad faith people. I didn't realize all of
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: them would be insane, Like I went with like notes
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: and facts and figures, like traditional all of it was
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: a waste of time, Like these people are not interested
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: in that stuff. So sometimes you kind of realize it
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: in the middle of it. You know, the Supreme Court
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: was once as how do you know, how do you
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: define porn? And they're like, you know it when you
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: see it? Right when you're in the debate and you
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: know there's a bad I've interviewed people that I realize
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I've interview like leading politicians from our government foreign governments,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: and halfway through you realize that this guy is just
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: not interested, just pure bullshit.
• 20:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the twenty of you one, that's just entertainment.
• 20:03
  Speaker 5: It can't be in good face because it's literally designed.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: To be say that. But what's interesting that I'm gonna
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: sad part is that. But if you watch all the
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: right wingers who went on it, if you watch Jordan
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: Peterson or Candice Owens when they go on it, they
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: get a bunch of like well meaning, really earnest young
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: liberals who are like, ah, but mister Peterson, what do
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: you think about that? You know, this argument against God?
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Like I go on it and I'm like, get out
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: of our country, and I.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Feel like I feel like I'm fascist.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I'm a fascist. Yeah, I'm a fascist. So I think
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I do think like there is a real asymmetry in
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: our politics right now, which is where like there are
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of liberals leftist who do want to have
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: like a really earnest argument about policy, Like how do
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: we get Medicare for all. And on the other side,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: there's like how do we get rid of all the
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: black and brown people? And it's not the same thing.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: I know the media loves to treat It's like both sides,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: the far left and the far right. The far left
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: once universal healthcare, the far right wants Nazism. That's not
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: the same thing.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, when you jump into those debates, you know, there's
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: so much misinformation out there. They really believe some of
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: the stuff sometimes and some of the times. Which makes
• 21:00
  Speaker 3: it horrible is these news programs report misinformation like it's right.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: So how do you debate somebody that is getting misinformation
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: that believes they are totally right.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: We see it all the time. We see it pay
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: all the time as well.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: So here's my thing. When I debate a lot of
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: those people, I'm not trying to change their minds. I'm
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: trying to change the audience. I'm always got my eye
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: on the third agent in the room or not in
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: the room at home, watching on YouTube, and I think
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: sometimes we get lost and like, I'm going to change
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: your mind when I go on with some of these
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: freaks and ghouls on Piers Morgan Show to comeing to
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: defend the genocide. I'm not trying to change their mind.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to change the mind of someone who's
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: defending a genocide two years in right, that person is
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: a lost cause morally and politically. What I'm trying to
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: do is get some people in the middle who may
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: have accidentally come across this show or debate while while
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: they were surfing on YouTube, and maybe they're open minded
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: to say, oh, I didn't know that. I didn't hear
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: that particular argument. I never heard the humanization of these people.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: I just see as insurgents or militant or terrorists. So
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: my goal is always and the first chapter of my
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: book is win over an audience. The audience is key.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: It's not about you and the other person. It is
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: about the watching audience. Because I want to change people minds.
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: That's what I do want to do. Otherwise, just as
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: you say, it's just entertainment if you're not actually having in.
• 22:04
  Speaker 5: A different perspective than I think a lot of people,
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: because I think a lot of people do focus on
• 22:07
  Speaker 5: the audience, but they focus on the audience because they
• 22:08
  Speaker 5: want an amn corner, as opposed they're actually trying to
• 22:11
  Speaker 5: teach them.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I find that sometimes boring. I go to
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: events and the whole audience agrees with me. It's nice,
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: it's good for the ego. Everyone's aplouting everything, but it's not.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I much prefer having an audience. That's what That's why
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: I do. People like, why do you go on Piers
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Morgan show?
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: It's this.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: I was like, whether you like it or not, you
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: reach a huge audience and people who don't agree with
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: you around the world, and that is an opportunity. Now
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: there's a there's a line like I don't I don't.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: I know you go on Fox. I don't go on Fox.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't go on because though the.
• 22:36
  Speaker 5: Reason I think you should is that I think, look,
• 22:38
  Speaker 5: look how effective President Obama was when he went on there.
• 22:40
  Speaker 5: Think about how effective Stewart was when he goes on,
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: and think about GAVI people many you absolutely no.
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: I'll tell you why.
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: I'll tell you why.
• 22:48
  Speaker 7: I come, you do the you believe, but not go
• 22:50
  Speaker 7: on Fox?
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, would I do the jubilee again? Though? That's
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: the issue. So so the thing is that jubilate. I
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: have a I have a basic standard, which is like
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: you asked about debating, and how do you know about
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: like I won't debate white supremacy. People say, oh, you
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: should interview Marjorie Taylor Green. I'm like, the woman is
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: you know, she's she thinks the rothschild lasers, calls fires like,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: she's she has weird QAnon conspiracy theories. She's an anti vaxer.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: She's a climate denier. Like I don't think there is
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: value in debating holocaust deniers, climate change deniers, election denies.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: It's just pointless, right, I'm not going to debate is
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: up down, it's cold, hot? Is black? White? I just
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: don't think there's Invalua.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: You've never been in a.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: I'm a loyal Korean barbershop down. I've had these debates.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying they're not valuable. I try and avoid them.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: But going on Fox, for example, I get the I
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: get the argument what democrats make like we should go
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: and reach a new audience. Bernie does a lot of Fox.
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: The problem is the Fox model is not built around
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: it simply, it's built around entertainment, as you say. And also,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: I do think Fox is an irredeemable company in the
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: sense that it is a force for evil in this
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: world in terms of spreading racism and misogyny and election
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: denial and climate denier, and I just think me going
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: on there. I know this sounds silly because it's a huge,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: big Fox a little old Mardy hasn't. But I don't
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: want to go on and legitimize them. I know that
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: sounds old fashioned quaint, but I feel like if I
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: go on there, then I'm treating it like a legitimate
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: news outlet. I don't even call it Fox News. I
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: call it Fox. It's not a news outlet. I mean
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: they paid billions of doll they pay one hundreds of
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: million dollars in settlement to dominion. They are a propaganda
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: outlet for the Republican Party and for Maga. So for me,
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: I just don't see the value by the way that
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: people who go on you can go on and do
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: a great job on Lara Trump. Problem me is for
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: the next twenty three hours, they undermine everything you said
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: in that one hour, So it doesn't really have an
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: enduring factor, which is why when you poll Fox viewers
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: they are so misinformed no matter how many Charlemain's, Pete
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: Buddha Judges or Bernies go on.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: But then when I'm out in the street.
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: I see the real reaction to you know what I mean,
• 24:42
  Speaker 5: I don't see the propaganda that's being pushed. Are a
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: message or native they're trying to push actual people come
• 24:48
  Speaker 5: up to me and be like, hey man, I'm a
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: lot farther right than you, but I appreciate a lot.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Of the things that you say.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: That's fair.
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: You know, do you think mainstreaming journalism in the US
• 24:57
  Speaker 5: have gotten too cozy with power?
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: I would dispute the premise of your question. Gotten too
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: cozy with pot It's always it's always been cozy. When
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: was it not cozy with Powell? Right now, we're in
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: a different situation, which is we have media outlets joining
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: up with a fascistic government. That's a whole different ballgame.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: But in general, the US media has always been too
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: cozy with power, never really taken an adversarial position against
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: people in power. Journalism should be adversarial. Journalism should be
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: challenging the people in power. It should be you know,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: you know, what's the line afflicting the comfortable and comforting
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: the afflicted. And we've really not done that in the US.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: When I moved here in twenty sixteen, one of the
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: reasons people got to know me was because I do
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: tough interviews and people were saying to me on the street, like,
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: you're that guy who did that interview Eric Prince, I
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: can't believe out. And then I went to MSNBC and
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I started doing those interviews and luckily some other people
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: started following me. And now I think interviewing has improved
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: a bit on cable, but in general, for example, we
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: don't do tough interviews in this country with people in power.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: It is. You watch some of the Sunday Morning interviews,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: it's very, very friendly. Like I saw one the other
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: day where Marco Rubio just said some absolute bs and
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: Margaret Brennan said thank you for joining us, and it's like,
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: where's the follow up? So I do think that is
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: a problem, especially our interviews on not Adversaria.
• 26:07
  Speaker 5: Now I'm going to ask you a question. I thought
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: I knew the answer to how do we break this
• 26:10
  Speaker 5: cycle today? And the reason I say I thought I
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: knew the answer to it is because I thought that
• 26:14
  Speaker 5: these new media outlets, you know, the things that the
• 26:18
  Speaker 5: stuff that was popping up on YouTube, I thought they
• 26:20
  Speaker 5: were going to break this cycle. But it seems like
• 26:22
  Speaker 5: a lot of them are causing up the power as well.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: That's interesting, So not us, not zeteo. We're not cozy
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: up to power either side. Obviously we're very critical of
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: the publican body, but we're also critical of the Democratic
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Party as well when when we need to be. I think, yeah,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: a lot of the quote unquote independent outlets are not
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: that independent. You took at someone like Tucker Carlson. I
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: saw him on the Piers Morgan Show talking at Piers
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: Morgan again to me name checks of peers. He was
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: on the show this week and I heard him say,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: you know, I do like Donald Trump. I campaigned for him.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: I don't think journalist should be campaigning for politicians. I
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: just don't think that's our role if you call yourself
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: a journalist. I mean, everyone knows my preference is an election.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: I don't want Donald Trump to be president. I didn't
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: want him to win last year. But I didn't go
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: out and like do events for Kamala Harris. That would
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: be insane. So I think, you know, that's a real
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: problem that a lot of people on the right, obviously,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: I mean Epstein. The Epstein story is the classic example.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: It was independent quote unquote media that led that story
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: even more than Fox. It was the right wing YouTubers
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: and podcasters that really pushed Epstein, Epstein, Nepstey Nepstein. And
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: then they got those stupid files and they waved them
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: outside the White House. And then it turns out there
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: are you know, the Epstein files are not out, they
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: haven't been released, they're never going to be released. And
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: these guys just went silent. They were like, we trust
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: the president. I mean, i'magine saying that. First of all,
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: no journalist should ever say we trust the president any president. Certainly,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: you should never trust a man who lies with every breath.
• 27:37
  Speaker 7: What do you think will emerge as like the leading
• 27:40
  Speaker 7: place in media because it's not cable news anymore, YouTube
• 27:43
  Speaker 7: and online It's like you got to know who you
• 27:45
  Speaker 7: listening to, whether it's factual information?
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Like what will be that one?
• 27:49
  Speaker 7: Like go to here's where we know we can trust
• 27:52
  Speaker 7: that will emerge out of all of this mess, I.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Mean the shameless small business and me, says Zeteo, come
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: to my media side. But the serious answer is, I
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: don't think we can predict. I think anyone who tells
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: you they know what the media looks like in three, four,
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: five years time is either a liar or a four.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I mean, none of us could have even seen where
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: we are today three or four years ago. I don't
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: think if you'd said before the twenty twenty four election
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: that the big question is going to be did Kamala
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: Harris go on Rogan? If you'd said that in twenty twenty,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: people are laughed in your face. If you'd said ten
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: years ago, the guy from Home alone two would be
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: president the United States, people are laughed in your face.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: So I don't think anyone can predict where it's going.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: What I can say is, obviously YouTube is a dominant
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: force right now. I mean that Jubilee is a classic
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: example of that. You talk about people, the number of
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: young people. I was on a college campus last night.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: All the college students had really never seen me in
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: anything except Jubilee. They're like, you're the guy from that
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: circled debate. So that the YouTube power, especially for young people,
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: is massive. Obviously that's a problem because it's owned by Google,
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: and Google has its own agenda, which ain't always great
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: when it comes to misinformation. You just saw the heads
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: of Google and Microsoft and Facebook and Meta all sitting
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: around the table with Donald Trump lavishing praise on him
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: just the other night. So it's not great that these
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: big tech corporations control so much of our discourse, but
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: that's the world we're in right now.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: I definitely want the record to show that.
• 29:02
  Speaker 5: In February twenty twenty four, I absolutely told the Vice
• 29:05
  Speaker 5: President she needs to go on Rogan and she needs
• 29:07
  Speaker 5: to start going on Fox News. Yeah, because my thinking was,
• 29:11
  Speaker 5: Joe Biden is not going to win this election in
• 29:12
  Speaker 5: November unless you start getting out more in the forefront
• 29:17
  Speaker 5: and showing people who you are, so at least they
• 29:19
  Speaker 5: feel like, well, maybe I can vote for her on
• 29:21
  Speaker 5: the ticket. This is the way before she even became
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: a nomineer. And this was February twenty twenty four.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Have you seen the extract in The Atlantic today from
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: my did I was glad and she's saying that she's
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: basically saying what you'll say. She's like, I tried to
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: get out there. They should have realized that putting me
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: out that would help them look like they've got a
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: succession plan, that they have confidence in me, and they didn't. Right,
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: They've no daylight, no daylight. And she, by the way,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: she I need to read the whole thing. I need
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: to read a whole book. But like she has done, so,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: why she didn't just say, oh, get lost, I'm doing
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: my thing.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: I can't wait to read it.
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: I'm want to read you something from that expert that
• 29:48
  Speaker 5: came exert excerpt that came out to day, She says,
• 29:51
  Speaker 5: I gave a strong speech on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
• 29:54
  Speaker 5: Desperate people have been shot when they formed a food truck,
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: and I spoke of families reduced to eating leaves or
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: animal feed, women prematurely giving birth with a little or
• 30:01
  Speaker 5: non medical care, and children dying.
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: From malnutrition and dehydration.
• 30:04
  Speaker 5: I reiterated mass grand support for Israel security and called
• 30:07
  Speaker 5: on her master release the hostages and accept the ceasefire agreement.
• 30:10
  Speaker 5: Then on the table, I also called on Israel for
• 30:12
  Speaker 5: greater access to aid. It was a speech that had
• 30:14
  Speaker 5: been vetted and approved by the White House in the
• 30:16
  Speaker 5: National Security Council, and went viral, and the West Wing
• 30:19
  Speaker 5: was displeased. I was castigated for apparently delivering it too well,
• 30:22
  Speaker 5: what do you think when you hear that? So?
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: I think two things. Number one, I think the Joe
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Biden administration will forever be complicit in a genocide. The
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: genocide would not have happened had Biden not hugged Netnaho clothes,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: given him pretty much everything he wanted. We rightly castigate
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Trump right now, but we have to remember this began
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: on Joe Biden's watch. At any time, he could have
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: pulled the plug on the whole thing. He could have
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: called net Neon to end it now it's over. He
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: did not do that. He had multiple opportunities. Did not
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: do that. Harris. Here's a second point. I think Harris
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: would have been better on Gaza than Biden. I think
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Harris definitely would have been better on Gaza than Trump.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: But it's very hard to persuade people, especially my Palestinian friends,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: will say, no way. She was up to it, up
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: to a neck in it with Biden. I do think
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: that like that speech and other little things she did
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: were signals that she would be better on it. I
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: had people in the White House who were on her
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: side were telling me at the time, Harris is definitely
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: better than Biden. Although the bar is low, it's not
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: hard to be better than Biden on Gaza. The problem
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: is she didn't do it right. She didn't take that
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: opportunity and she, you know, will never know. Right, it's
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: one of the great counterfactionals. Would Israel be bombing Katar
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: and Iran and ethnic cleansing now if Kamala Harris's president,
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: will never know because she didn't take the opportunity to,
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: you know, politely throw Joe Biden under the bus. She
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: went on the view for me the day I knew
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: she lost that election. When she went on the view
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: and they say, what would you do differently to Joe
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Biden and she says nothing. I'm not even saying Gaza.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: I'm not even saying she should have come out and
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: been like, I'm going to recognize a Palestinian state and
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop just anything, healthcare, the economy, immigration, nothing right.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: It's a change election. People want change. People aren't happy
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: with all the polling told us. People were dissatisfied with
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: the economy, dissatisfied with dirt correctory. You come in and
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: you go, I'm gonna take it from Joe Biden, but
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: it's going to be the same. That is insanity. Whoever
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: is advising I should never work in politics again. I
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: know they're all trying to rehabilitate their careers. That was
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: an insane electoral strategy.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: It's my opinion that I don't know what's gonna happen
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: for her in the future.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: But what I like about what she's writing in his book.
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: To your point, I've been saying it over and over,
• 32:18
  Speaker 5: whoever is going to lead the Democratic Party in the future.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: You have to throw the Biden administration under the bus.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: I have to. I think you have to throw all
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: of the buggest Democrats.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: The whole region.
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about Epstein right now. I mean
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Bill Clinton, Bill Clint's in the book right He's in
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: the birthday book. Gilaine was all the family events, hanging
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: out with Chelsea unrest. I mean, let all of them
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: got to go again. I mean Donald Trump won in
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: twenty sixteen when he took on the entire Republican establishment.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: Let's not forget how he won in twenty sixteen. I
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: was I remember watching a debate. I was sitting on
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: my couch, right. He is a debate in twenty fifteen,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: and he goes on TV and he says, he says
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: to Jeb Bush. He goes, well, the Twin Towns came
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: down under your brother. Oh, he didn't do. He didn't
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: just say that Republican grand Instead of getting booed, he
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: gets booed by a few people, crowd cheer, his pollingd
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: goes up. Right, he throws the Bushes under the bus,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: happily blames them for Iraq nine to eleven, even though
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Trump supported the war. But he throws them all under
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: the bus. Right, you have to be able to the
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Democratic Convention last year had Clinton and Obama and Hillary
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: still speaking. Get rid of these people. People are done,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: whether you think they were good or bad presidents, and
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: they all had pros and cons Clinton, Obama, Biden, they
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: all did good things and bad things. Move on. You've
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: got to be forward looking. We're here in New York.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: You're a candidate who's forward looking. Stop living in the past.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: Why is Bill Clinton, a man who hasn't been president
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: for twenty five years, speaking at the DNC.
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: What do you think about the mayor race in New York?
• 33:36
  Speaker 5: Hold on, before we get did that. What you said
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: is so profound. Just now I'm gonna tell you why
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: twenty sixteen, that's exactly what Trump did. But Trump was
• 33:42
  Speaker 5: also an outsider. We know nobody in the Democratic Party.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Is going to do that. I love a lot of
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: these Peoplespiro.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: I like, what was more, they all have redlines. They're
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: not people they weren't criticized.
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that's why it has to be somebody like a
• 33:54
  Speaker 5: John Stewart. It has to be an outsider. I agree,
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: you're the only ones that's going to throw them under the.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Bus outside of or kind of fresh blood to go
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: back to a mum Dani who is within the party
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: but has the guts to take on the establishment. I
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: mean John Stewart. Obviously, you and I are big fans
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: of John Stewart and running. I wrote a piece saying
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: he should throw his hat in the ring. I'm not
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: saying he's going to be the best president or he
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: should be president. I'm saying the Democratic president your primary
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: debates could do with the John Stewart on stage throwing
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: some fireworks and hand grenades in Now.
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: What do you think about the mayor race in New
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: York City.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: I think it's great. I'm loving it.
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: I'm happy Trump's about the They say Trump's going to
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: pull in Adams so it's a little easier.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you look at the poll league
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: that came out this week, if you add up Adams,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Sleewer and Cuomo, they do have a marginal lead on
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: mum Daney. Clearly Mumdaney's benefiting from a divided opposition, But
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: I think that's very simplistic to suggest that all of
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: the people who support those candidates would immediately go to
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: another candidate. There are a lot of people who support
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: Adams and Sleewa, I'm sure, who look at Quomo and
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: be like, if our guys not on the race, we're
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: back in m Nania. We're staying at home. Right, This
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: idea that Cuomo will automatically command support from the other
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, Zora Mumdaney is both a once in a
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: generation political talent terms of his communication skills, in terms
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: of his policy platform, in terms of his charisma. He's
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: once in a generation like Obama ESQ, no doubt about that,
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: even his enemies conceived that. But at the same time,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: he's also benefited. He's a lucky candidate in that he
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: has his opposition divided between three people, two of whom
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: are clearly freaks. And I'm not talking about Curtis Leewer.
• 35:19
  Speaker 5: I don't know if he's the once in a lifetime
• 35:21
  Speaker 5: generational talent. I think that he's just speaking to common
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: sense issues. When he's walking around saying, you know, New
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: York is too affordable.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: And he's talking about sanity.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Has he saying that?
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: He's just saying it.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: He's saying in a way that resonates. He's I know
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: he has a great I know the people on his team.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: He has a great social media team, and they make
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: the snazzy videos. But you could take a bunch. You
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: could take one hundred random house democrats, one hundred random
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: house democrats, pick them out of a hat and put
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: them in those videos, and those videos wouldn't work. The
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: videos are brilliantly made. But it's Zoran's face, it's Zoran's voice,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: it's his natural humor, it's his charisma, it's his ability
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: to reach people. He's got that big smile. Don't underestimate
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: the power of that big smile. He's Muslim like me,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: so unfortunately I don't have that big smile, so I
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: have resting, angry Muslim face.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: So I can't he why in his work and if
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: he sold such such.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: A great I do like I do political annosis. You
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: can tell me why he's wrapped him like I'm telling
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: you as a politician, if he was not born in Uganda,
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: the morning after he wins that Maryrial race, he would
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: be the top of that twenty twenty eight primary field
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: that we talk about. People would immediately say he's the
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: guy who should be president.
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: Yes, I think you know, it's interesting because I always
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: say progressives and liberals cannibalize themselves.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Because they want purity.
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: And I see people getting upset with him because he
• 36:37
  Speaker 5: was on our sharp and and he said he would
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: he will discourage the globalized then into FIDA phrase, and
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: people are like, oh.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: See, he's already shi down. He's already you know town
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: in Israel.
• 36:52
  Speaker 5: It's just like you're in New York City. You need
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: some Jewish people to vote for you. You didn't do.
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: That well with black people.
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: You're gonna need them as well. Why would you not
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: understand the politics of there?
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe you believed that.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: No, there is politics to that. I would point out,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: by the way that even before he shifted a little
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: bit on this position, he was already leading with Jewish
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: voters in New York. The BS smear campaigns were not working, right.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: You had the ADLs and the Bill Ackmans and the
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump say this guy's an anti semi but Jewish
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: New Yorkers are too smart for that. They're like, no,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: he's ulf proferred candidate. He has a double digit leader
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: amongs Jewish Newyorkers. So I don't think he actually does
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: need to shift on this. But if he is shifting
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: on it, fine on the language, I think we got
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: to look first of all, you're right, the purity tests
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: are pointless here. The choices between him and Andrew Cromo,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: The choices between Zoron Mundani, a man who came on
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: my show a year ago when he was pulling at
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: one percent, and he said, if Benjamin Netnio comes to
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: New York, I'll arrest him because there's aar restaurant out
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: from the ICC. That's one choice. The other choices Andrew Cromo,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: a man who said, hey, mister Neto, can I represent
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: you at the International Criminal I'll be your lawyer to
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: defend your war crimes. That is the choice fundamentally on Israel.
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: If Israel is your issue, and you're voting on that,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: even though the mayor of New Yor doesn't control forign policy,
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: if that is your big issue, there's no choice right,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: it's it's the guy who said he arrested. That's the
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: guy who said I'll be Net' lawyer. There's no starker
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: choice that. But look, you're right. The problem is there's
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: a lot of people in the activist class which is
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: which does And I get it. I understand it's a
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: very emotive issue. People don't want to feel like they're
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: being thrown under the bus. I understand why a lot
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: of activists upset with the change because there has been
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: the smear that if you say river to the Sea Palestine,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: will you're genocidal. That's not at all what people mean
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: by that. But I think you're right the big picture.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: You're right. Like the right looks for the right looks
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: for converts, the left looks for traders. That has always
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: been the case in my lifetime. The left are the
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: masters of circular firing squads. We turn on each other
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: much quicker than we turn on our actual opponents, and
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: that's always been a problem. That's not new. So do
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: you depressing? But it's not new?
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: So knowing that, do you like his chances? Yes, okay,
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: I do.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: Like his chances, and I wish I wish if slash
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: when he wins he was able to run for president,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: but we have an amendment to the constitution that says
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: you can't. Although if Donald Trump can run for a
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: third term, I'm dade he should run.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Fact like that. I don't even know why we're even
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: in a team that conversation.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: About unfortunately, because he keeps saying it.
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump runs for a third term is over. Maydy.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: I know, like we're I know, not going to be
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: a free and fair election. I know we would be
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: fooled even.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: I don't think there will be an election now. He
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: wouldn't run an election. He would simply cancel the elections,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: saying national emergency. He's already floated this, but you saw
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: them sitting with Zelenski saying, oh so you don't have
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: elections because you're in a warrant emergency. Oh so if
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: I had that here, we would be able not to
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: have thet He's already thinking that. With Trump, he's always
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: part trolling, part joking, but part serious. And Steve Bannon,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: by the way, who was a very serious figure, has
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: been very open about the fact that they are working
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: on a plan to keep him an office beyond twenty
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: twenty eight.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Do you believe in Democrats moving forward.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: The big de Democratic Party the whole have not under
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: the leadership of the current folks. No, I've openly said
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: that Hakeem Jeffreys and Chuck Schumer should go. They need
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: to stand down. They are not as you as you
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: called him. Apak Shakor is not the man for this moment.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: They are ludicrous in their interventions. They both keep saying, oh,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: we need a strongly worded letter like this is not
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: that they literally I'm not even making that up. That's
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: not me being sarcastic. They've actually on the record saying
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: the age of DC did a really good letter. Chuck
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Schumer was like, I wrote a really good letter about Harvard, Like,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: this is not the time for letters right American democracies
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: on the line. We may not have a free and
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: fair election in twenty twenty eight, and these two guys
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: are pining for a golden age of bipartisan politics that
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: never existed and certainly doesn't exist right now. We need
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: people who are going to fight. And I say this
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: not as a big de Democrat. I'm not a Democrat,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: a small de Democrat, someone who believes in democracy wants
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: my kids to grow up. In a democratic America, we
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: only have two parties, so the opposition party has to
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: do the fighting for us. These people don't fight. Nobody
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: believes that Chuck Schuman, Hakem Jeffreys are fighters. But there
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: are other Democrats who can. Just as you say, they're
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: too scared to challenge.
• 40:38
  Speaker 7: Who are the people that become like the voice or
• 40:40
  Speaker 7: like the you know, like you have like people that
• 40:41
  Speaker 7: you point today.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: They do have a fight, They do have the fight.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: There are Democrats who fight, so I I mean, there
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: are there are obvious people like the aocs of this world,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: the Ilhanomas, the Rashida Tilab's, and the squad who are
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: very outspoken. But there are other people. There's Jasmin Crockett's
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: got a big following now. She's been very outspoken from
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Texas in the Senate. There's people like Chris van Holland
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: and Maryland who went to El Salvador when apparently Kim
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Jeffreys was telling don't go to El Salvador, it's unpopular issue.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: Chris Van Holand went to El Salvador and got kill
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: mart Obrigo Garcia back. He came back because the people
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: like Chris van Holland going out there and picking that fight.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: So I think there are Democrats who are willing to
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: speak out on some issues. Jamie Raskin is always very
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: strong unconstitutional issues. There are a bunch of them, but
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: they just don't have leadership roles because Democrats are in
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: this kind of Why Chuck Schumer lost the Senate, he
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: should have resigned the next day. Like, you lose an election,
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: you should stand down. We live in a country where
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: you lose an election on the Democratic side, you don't
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: stand down. On the Republican side, you say you wont
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: like we need to get back to you lose, you quit,
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: you move on with your life, build a library or
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: whatever it is. These we have a gerontocracy in this country,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: or a bunch of old people who do not want
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: to give up ower.
• 41:45
  Speaker 5: How detrimental do you think it's going to be if
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: Chuck Schumer, Hakim Jeffries just refuse the indoors Mundani and
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: then like he loses, How.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Detrimental do you think it's going to be in the whole.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, it would be so bad. Yeah, it will be
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: so bad. I mean AOC made this point this week,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: and I've made this point before. Kim Jeffries is on
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: the record. You can pull up his Twitter right now,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: there's a tweet still. He didn't even delete the tweet
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: where he's like, vote blue no matter who. He's one
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: of those guys vote blue no matter who. Apparently there
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: was an asterisk that we didn't see that says vote
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: blue no matter who. Unless you're progressive, then we'd how
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: to vote for you. That's the kind that's the kind
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: of nonsense that they're pushing out. So I think it's
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: gonna hurt them. Right in twenty twenty eight, Let's say
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: we get a centrist candidate and Democrats say we've got
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: to stop Trump or Vans or whoever it is, got
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: to get behind the candidate. You may not like all
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: of Gavin Newsom's politics or JB. Pritzkill, got to get
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: behind him. And I get that argument. You got to
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: get behind the guy who's opposing the fascists. A lot
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: of people on the left are gonna say, are you joking?
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? Where was this in New York?
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: When did you get behind it? They're doing huge long
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: term damage to their ability to energize and get their
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: base out because they're basically saying, now you don't have
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: to vote for every Democratic candidate. Now we were just kidding.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: If you want, we can all withhold on nominations. When
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: you see Jillibrand and Hokal and Jeffrees and schumer Ian,
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: this is their state, this is their city. To not
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: endorse your own candidate in your own city when you
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: want a landslide is insane. People can see how hypocritical
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: you are. And by the way, on Jeffreys, just one
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: quick thing, they may win back the House next year.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that Jeffries is so bad he's going
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: to stop the winning at the House. I think they
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: might win back the House because the anti Trump wave
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: is so strong. They'll win it back in spite of Jeffries,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: not because of Jefferies. But then you have another problem.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: Then you have Speaker Haquem Jeffries. Democrats have some power.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: What are they gonna do with that? Does he have
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: a vision to create some resistance, to throw some sand
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: in the wheels and the gears. No, I don't think
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: he does. Is he gonna hold hearings? Is he gonna
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: go after Trump's corruption? Is he gonna call is he
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: going to be an actual insurgent speaker. I don't think so.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:32
  Speaker 5: I don't like people who say, well, just wait till
• 43:34
  Speaker 5: I get in a position. When I get in a position,
• 43:36
  Speaker 5: I'm gonna show you.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: I'm show me down. Yeah.
• 43:38
  Speaker 5: That's in an era where misinformation spreads fast and in
• 43:42
  Speaker 5: fact that I know, you gotta go. How do you balance, okay,
• 43:45
  Speaker 5: how do you balance calling out lies in real time
• 43:48
  Speaker 5: without giving those live more actions.
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: Oh, that is the existential question of our time for journalists.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: I'm so glad you asked that question because I've struggled
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: with that. I know you have everyone in my industry
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: to struggle with this. When Donald Trump comes along and says,
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: like the twenty twenty eight thing, right, how do we
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: talk about twenty twenty eight without normalizing it. The more
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: we talk about it, the more we're like, oh, maybe
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: he can run. Like Trump knows how to plant ideas
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: of people's minds, how to lay the groundwork, plant the
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: seeds for his bs. And it's a real problem. So
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: when you're trying to all the studies show when you
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: try and fact check someone or say this is a lie,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: what you said was false, a lot of people just
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: hear the lie. They don't hear the correction, so it
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: is a problem. So there is a guy called George
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Lacoff who is a cognitive psychologist, I think is his
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: title at Berkeley, wrote a lot of books called Don't
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: Think of an Elephant and other so he used to
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: be very popular in the Democratic Party. Nancy Pelosi used
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: to get advice from him. He said early on in
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: the Trump era that you've got to respond with what's
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: called a truth sandwich. Right, if you're confronted with someone
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: lying all the time, you've got to tell the truth,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: say what the truth is first, then rebut the lie,
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: then say the truth again. Right. The lie has to
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: be enveloped in truth, otherwise people will only ever hear
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: the lie. So it takes more time, it takes more effort,
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: and obviously we live in a world of hot takes
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: and cable news and people up against ad breaks, so
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: it becomes hard for journalists to do that. But that
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: is really the only demonstrable, proven way of really rebutting
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: this stuff.
• 45:06
  Speaker 7: But how impactful is that in reality? Because even if
• 45:09
  Speaker 7: you do the sandwich, whatever outlet is going to grab
• 45:12
  Speaker 7: what's in the middle, because that's what people You know,
• 45:14
  Speaker 7: what I mean like that that's what get.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: People and that's it. And then that leads us to
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: the question of which is are there more outlets grabbing
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: the lie or more outlets grabbing the truth? And that
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: comes back to a wide discussion about what does our
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: media landscape look like? Right now? We have CBS News
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: basically becoming an extension of the Donald Trump administration. They've
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: just appointed an ombudsman who is a Trump donor, pro
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: Israel guy was nominated for He's going to be the
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: guy in charge of CBS news standards. Fantastic, Goodbye CBS,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: goodbye sixty minutes. So the media landscape is heading in
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: a very right wing direction, which makes independent media so important,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: right that is the only option now because the corporations
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: are not coming to save us. This idea that you know,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: I worked at MSNBC. I loved every minute of it.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: But MSNBC, which is now called MS now I think
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: it's rebranded, is not coming to save you, right, None
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: of the corporate media outlets are coming to save you.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: No matter what good journalism they may or may not do,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: they are not coming to save you because fundamentally, a
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: lot of their owners, a lot of the c suites
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: have already bent the kne to Trump, and therefore independent
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: journalism becomes so important. Where are you getting your news
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: on substack or on YouTube or on social media? Where
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: are you going? Gas is a classic example of that.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: If you had just followed mainstream media the last two years,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: you wouldn't actually know what's going on. If you're on Instagram,
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: for example, and I say, this is no fan of
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg, But with that Instagram the Palestinian struggle in
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: Gaza would not be known to the extent it is today.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: People like Motas Palestinian photograph fifteen million followers and Instagram.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: He got out the images in the very early days
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: of kids being bombed having their heads blown off, right,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: that was so important for people to see raw uncensored,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: not having to wait for the nightly news with all
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: the censored footage, they were able to see it themselves
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: from Palestinians on the ground. So I do think it
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: matters where you go to get your information, and we
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: do need to support independent journals for people watching and listening.
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: When I say support, that means you've got to pay
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: for it. Like I know, we live in a country
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: where we want everything for free, especially young people. But
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: a free press isn't free. It costs money to hire
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: reporters and do fact checks, have lawyers to protect you
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: from BS defamation suits. All of that cost money.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: I got two more questions. You keep seeing you left MSNBC.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know why. I thought that you got fired
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: because of your stance on Gather.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: So my shows were canceled. I had two shows on
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: MSNBC and on Peacock, and my shows were canceled. There
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: was a lot of coverage about why that was. They
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: said to me, you can stay on as a guest
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: host or on a analyst, and I said thanks, but
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: no thanks. Because it was twenty twenty four, I had
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: a feeling it was going to be a big year
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: with a genocide and an election with a fascist, and
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: I felt like I needed to be someone where could
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: have my voice out there, completely unfiltered, uncensored, uncontrolled. And
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: therefore it was a no brainer that not only was
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: I going to leave MSNBC, I wasn't going to go
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: to another publication or outlaw. I was going to start
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: my own thing because I just wanted to be able
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: to have that free voice.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: And it was because you were speaking loudly about Gaza
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: and what Israel was doing.
• 47:47
  Speaker 5: Togather, you'd have to ask MSNBC, No, you talk about
• 47:53
  Speaker 5: you did launch your own show, your own network.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: What's the name of it again, the tail?
• 47:57
  Speaker 5: What has that experience taught you about independence, sustainability, and
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: just the future of news media in general.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: I think what it's taught me is there is nothing
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: that substitutes for authenticity. And you guys know that sitting
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: around this table. You know that from talking to your listeners,
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: meeting people on the street. We've grown very fast touch
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: would I mean, we have half a million subscribers on subject.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: We have one point two million subscribers on YouTube. That's
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: in just a year and a half. And that is
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: because people wanted to hear authentic coverage. They wanted to
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: hear my voice, or not just my voice, but some
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: of our reporters and contributors. We've got people like Naomi
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: Klein and Greta Tunberg and Basa Musa and other people contributing.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: And I think people want to hear that. They don't
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: want to hear people who are self censoring, who are
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: checking themselves, who are looking over their shoulder at a
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: c suite or a standards department or lawyers. I think
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: they want to see people who are speaking truthfully about
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: the fascist threat at home and the genocidal threat abroad.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: They want to have a relationship with the people they
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: follow and understand that they are putting their faith in
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: those people, that group, that company to give them the truth.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: To go back to your question, where can they find?
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: And I think that's back I've gotten. And the sustainability
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: issue is we've proved we're sustainable. We're a year and
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: a half in. We are doing very well. We just
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: hired two new political reporters from Rolling Stone. We're expanding
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: our team. I have fifteen full time employees now another
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: half a dozen contractors, so we're growing. I'm amazed. I
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: can't run a bath like the idea that I was
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: going to run a company. Friends of mine are like,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: you're crazy. What the hell are you doing. You can't
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: run anything. I said, I know, But here we are
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: eighteen months later. We are running a successful progressive independent
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: media company which is growing by the day. And I
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: think that's taught me that there is a huge people.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: People are interested in long form journalist, people are interested
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: in subs that they just want quick, hot takes on
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: I don't believe that. That's not true. I think people
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: are interested in That's why you're doing this show. That's
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: why I'm doing what I do.
• 49:39
  Speaker 3: All right, Well out the book, win every argument, the
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: art of debating, persuading and public speaking.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: And thank you for joining scrouted in network.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much as a tail dot com And
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: don't be a stranger man.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: Pull up anytime you want.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: Whenever I'm in New York. I'll drop your life.
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: Meddi Hassan is the breakfast Club, Good Morning every day.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: A week ago.
• 49:59
  Speaker 4: Up this club. You're finished for yar dumb