Latest / The BIG Home Ed Conversations | Home Education / Refugee Education, Prejudice & Shared Humanity: Learning From Displaced Young People

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Refugee Education, Prejudice & Shared Humanity: Learning From Displaced Young People · The BIG Home Ed Conversations | Home Education

0:20
Hello everybody, welcome to another episode of the Big Home
0:23
Ed Conversations. We have got a hard hitting one
0:25
for you today. My name is Kelly Rigg, I'm a
0:27
home Ed mum of two and a founder of Off Roading Motherhood.
0:30
I'm a qualified mindset coach and I am really passionate about
0:33
supporting parents and neurodivergent families,
0:35
especially as they navigate the transition from mainstream
0:38
schooling into home education. I'm here together with my Co
0:41
host Ashley Venerio, A fellow home Ed mum of three and former
0:44
primary teacher. We've created the Big Home Ed
0:47
Conversations podcast with what began as honest, heartfelt talks
0:50
around typically her coffee table while the kids run around
0:53
our ankles. And it's now grown into a space
0:55
where hundreds of listeners now tune in for real, unfiltered
0:58
conversations about mindset, behaviour, challenges,
1:01
educational philosophies and the often emotional journey of
1:04
alternative education. So we cut through the noise and
1:06
we focus on what really matters to home educating families,
1:09
offering clarity, confidence, and some community in every
1:12
episode. Today, we have just had the
1:16
utmost pleasure of interviewing Catherine Gladwell from Refugee
1:19
Education UK. She is the founder and CEO of an
1:22
organization that works to support families and children
1:25
access education as they come to the UK.
1:28
We reached out to them because one of the things which I was
1:32
kind of really mulling over as I was talking to my kids about
1:34
this kind of concept of changing perspectives, opening our minds,
1:37
seeing other humans was that actually people experience
1:43
prejudice and hate and othering for a multitude of different
1:47
reasons. But when you when you come to
1:50
the UK as an asylum seeker, A refugee, you are often
1:52
experiencing so many barriers, language barriers, being able to
1:56
translate your education to ours, being able to integrate
2:00
with community, to uphold your own culture.
2:04
And actually I felt like actually when we consider the
2:08
othering that we receive as home educating families, quite often
2:13
we are also fearful of our children's ability to translate
2:16
their learning into the wider world.
2:19
That we, we worry too about them being able to access higher
2:22
education and go on to be successful and to do all these
2:25
amazing things, judging based on what they're capable of and them
2:29
showing that they're just the most incredible people.
2:33
And so whether you have travelled the world and been in
2:37
different places, had to move country for, for various other
2:39
reasons, we can all draw these threads of empathy.
2:42
They are not the same and they are not the same experience.
2:45
But there is an element of empathy there that we can all
2:48
kind of draw from when we can maybe kind of factor in what
2:51
some of these young people are going through and the measuring
2:54
stick that they're judged against.
2:56
When truthfully, they are absolutely incredible people, so
3:01
driven, so appreciative of opportunities in education and
3:06
safety and even some of the most basic things in life that
3:09
they're now so grateful to be receiving that we take for
3:12
granted. And I know that my, my, my
3:14
children, as wonderful as they are, do on many occasions, take
3:19
things for granted like I do, like we all do.
3:23
And actually this interview has not only opened my mind and
3:26
given me goosebumps 1/2 a dozen times, but it's also made me
3:30
realise that actually the more compassion we can draw in and,
3:36
and and be aware of more and more people in our world, the
3:41
the better well-rounded people we can become and the the
3:44
happier our children will be for it.
3:46
The opportunities that they will receive in the in the world will
3:49
be richer for it that their their gratitude will grow
3:53
exponentially. So with no further ado, let's
3:57
get stuck in. This has honestly been such a
3:59
great talk, so I really hope you guys enjoy it.
4:12
We are really excited to have you here today.
4:14
Catherine, We were very, very honoured that you wanted to come
4:17
on and chat to us about everything you're working on.
4:19
So obviously today's conversation all around kind of
4:21
the concept of refugee education might seem a little random to us
4:25
in our home Med world and we tend to talk about home
4:26
education and the various different challenges that we
4:28
face. But actually, I believe that
4:31
it's something like half of all children who are current
4:34
refugees are out of school right now and obviously needing
4:38
support with their education to obviously continue to allow them
4:40
to actually go on to meet whatever potential they hold.
4:43
Obviously you must feel very passionate about it as you've
4:45
because you started Refugee Education UK.
4:47
Catherine, we'd love to hear more about kind of what, what
4:50
got you into caring so much about all of this and and doing
4:53
so much for the the cause. Well, thank you so much for
4:57
having me. It's really, really wonderful to
5:00
be here, and I think that you guys are some of the bravest and
5:05
most brilliant mums for undertaking the challenges that
5:08
you do every day. It's Yeah, it's very inspiring.
5:12
And you're right, it is to save 1/2 of the world's refugee
5:15
children that are out of school. In the UK, we don't actually
5:20
know exactly how many refugee children are out of school
5:23
because even at that data collection level, these children
5:27
are quite invisible, even in the data.
5:30
But I used to be a teacher and I had quite a lot of refugee
5:35
children during my classes and so you saw them first hand,
5:40
firstly, how important coming to school was for them.
5:44
So I had children in my classes who were sort of aged 14 and 15
5:48
and who had been out of school for three or four years or who
5:51
had never had the chance to go to school before because of the
5:55
environment, the conflict and the lack of education where they
5:58
had grown up. Then long and complicated
6:02
journeys to the UK and then long waits for education when they
6:05
are right here. And so when they finally found
6:08
themselves in the classroom, the value that they placed on that
6:12
was immense. And at the same time, I also saw
6:18
first hand some of the challenges and that they were
6:21
encountering that were like affecting their ability to
6:23
actually kind of make the progress in education that they
6:27
wanted to make. And so cut a Long story short,
6:33
probably, you know, several years later after working for an
6:37
international NGO in education and emergencies and sort of more
6:40
humanitarian response type of work in other countries.
6:44
I was walking down my street in, you know, in London and had
6:52
noticed that there's a set group of kids that was always sitting
6:55
on the wall at the end of my road and got chatting to them.
7:00
And they turned out to be refugee teenagers who were
7:06
living in a house that belonged to the local authority on my Rd.
7:10
There were five of them in the house with no adult, so 16 year
7:14
old all together in one house visited by a social worker each
7:18
day and they weren't in school. And so I was still working in
7:22
education at that point and got chatting to them.
7:25
You know that after you got past the same kids day after day, if
7:28
you're if you're a teacher, I also used to be a youth worker.
7:31
You get you get chatting and I asked them, you know why you're
7:34
not in school and they said, like we want to be, we want to
7:36
be learning, but we're still waiting.
7:39
And from that it transpired the, in the area where I lived, there
7:44
was, there were issues around refugee children getting places
7:48
in schools, particularly older teenagers.
7:51
And so I got together at that time, it was just me, a few
7:55
volunteers. I'm, I'm part of us very small
7:58
and informal local church in my neighborhood.
8:01
And a few of us got together and were like, we could run a
8:06
volunteer mentoring, educational mentoring program maybe just for
8:09
10 kids. We got in touch with the local
8:13
authority and with the local federal education college.
8:16
And we started working with 10 unaccompanied refugee children
8:21
who were waiting for school places or who had just about got
8:24
a place in college but were really struggling to kind of
8:26
keep up with what was being taught because of the gaps in
8:29
their previous education. So that's how we started.
8:32
And honestly, I thought we've stumbled across a local need,
8:37
but surely there must be some charity out there somewhere
8:40
whose remit is to engage with education for refugee children
8:44
in this country because it's such a clear need.
8:47
And I guess our story of the last decade has been gradually
8:50
discovering that what was a local need is actually a
8:52
national need. And I wouldn't say growing to
8:56
meet that gap because, you know, no one can do that on their own.
8:59
But our contribution into that space, growing and becoming a
9:03
more national charity and trying to help refugee children get
9:07
into education as quickly as possible and then thrive
9:10
academically and in terms of their mental health once they're
9:13
there. Yeah.
9:14
I mean, I was reading some of the stories on your website
9:17
shortly before we got on this call today.
9:19
And so empowering hearing how committed they all are to their
9:24
own future and what they want to achieve.
9:26
And there's one young lad who wants to become a mechanical
9:29
engineer and he was saying that he kind of fought tooth and nail
9:33
to kind of get in. He's like 3 months before GCS ES
9:35
were due to be SAT and he was able to sit them and I think got
9:38
a 7. And he was just like the yeah,
9:41
that he obviously had worked so hard to to like really self
9:43
driven, really self motivated and obviously clearly very
9:46
talented mathematical brain as well.
9:49
And it's one of the things that we often talk about and sort of
9:53
champion within the home education kind of world that we
9:55
talk about is how self driven young people can be when they
9:58
have got a goal and they have got an intention.
10:00
Obviously, these are these are young people who have
10:02
experienced the most insane trauma that we can't even
10:05
possibly begin to comprehend and have fought tooth and nail to
10:09
come to a country where they are hoping to receive support and
10:12
welcoming and hopefully an opportunity for education that
10:15
allow them to go on to do great things with their lives.
10:18
And they must face such a lot of barriers, but you can, it's a
10:21
real, it's almost like a, a testament to how self driven
10:24
they actually are to have even reached the point of coming and
10:28
asking for it, especially if they're unaccompanied.
10:30
Like, I can't even imagine that journey.
10:33
But do you find that a lot of the young people that you work
10:36
with have got this kind of real ability to go, this is what I
10:39
want and this is what I'm trying to do.
10:40
And they really want to take it with both hands and and and have
10:44
that real commitment to themselves.
10:47
Yeah, I mean, I, I love what how you've just articulated that.
10:51
And I think it's, it is that that they have developed so much
10:55
resilience and seen the value of what education can do.
11:02
And so they've become very kind of clear sighted about what they
11:05
what they hope to achieve. But not only for themselves, but
11:09
one of the things that has most struck me over the years is just
11:12
how much the young people and the children that we work with
11:16
have got their motivation is for others as well.
11:19
It's like, yeah, I wouldn't be a mechanical engineer, but it's
11:21
because one day I'd really love to be able to go back and help
11:25
rebuild in my country. Or I was talking to a girl about
11:29
3 or 4 days ago who was saying, you know, I'm really desperate
11:32
to get a course, a place on a midwifery course because I've,
11:35
I've seen what it's like when women have to give birth in
11:38
context where there is, you know, completely inadequate
11:42
medical care. And I want to be part of the
11:43
change in that. And, you know, 100 different
11:46
stories. Yes, I really resilient and
11:49
determined and ambitious for their own lives.
11:53
But so often because they want to do something to support a
11:58
broader community, whether it's in that country of origin.
12:01
And they're hoping for, you know, a more peaceful future
12:03
there and being able to contribute, or it's saying, you
12:06
know, I'd like to be able to contribute here in this
12:09
community, that I'm now part of it.
12:10
And I think that's also something that gets hugely
12:13
overlooked in a lot of the ways that people talk about young
12:17
refugees, particularly at the moment.
12:21
Yeah. And I think that's one of the
12:23
things we really wanted to draw attention to.
12:24
And obviously the concept of this series of changing
12:26
perspectives is that I appreciate that there is an
12:28
awful lot of hate and prejudice and frustration being shown
12:32
towards as refugees in the UK right now.
12:35
And I'm also very conscious that we as home educators also like,
12:38
obviously you don't know any of the same scale, but we do
12:40
receive a level of prejudice and stereotyping like every minority
12:44
group does. We all kind of people believe
12:48
that individuals are not capable of great things sometimes when
12:52
they're not kind of necessarily conforming to what everybody is
12:55
expecting them to be. And I think one of the things we
12:57
were discussing are the various barriers that they must face
13:00
when sort of trying to access education, sort of language and
13:03
trying to overcome that barrier. And as you say, trying to
13:05
comprehend the content they're being given when they're they're
13:08
also trying to translate it all the time.
13:10
And I think one of the things that I know that must happen a
13:14
lot is this kind of conflict with sort of prejudice,
13:19
especially when obviously coming from places from from war-torn
13:22
places, people are worried and they obviously get anxious about
13:25
this. And so I can appreciate that it
13:27
you must be, they must be dealing with such a lot of
13:30
prejudice in their interactions with people as well.
13:33
And that is such a barrier to be overcoming when you're trying to
13:36
obviously do such great things. I mean to to want to go back to
13:39
your home country to help women give birth because they've seen
13:43
such awful things happening to be yeah, sort of judging them or
13:47
not giving them opportunities or not helping them to achieve
13:49
those things seems seems diabolical to me because they
13:53
are genuinely just just trying to exist like we all are.
13:57
Yeah, it's really interesting that you say that, you know,
13:59
like we all are. And I think that sense of shared
14:02
humanity and tendency as people to just sort of see a statistic
14:07
or see something like, you know, like you're saying with home
14:09
education, that is like other to my normality and my identity and
14:15
what I've chosen to do and not the shared humanity underneath
14:18
that. And that, you know, what parent
14:21
isn't trying to do the best for their child?
14:24
What young person isn't trying to build a future for themselves
14:27
and their family and their community, what that looks like?
14:31
And we do see, we see a kind of cumulative set of barriers that
14:35
grow for these young people. So you're right, you know,
14:38
everything that's come before the point that they've arrived
14:40
in the UK. But then language as well as
14:43
language trying to catch up on gaps in education.
14:46
So trying to sort of get accelerated content there whilst
14:50
having a language difficulty, whilst potentially experiencing,
14:56
you know, serious trauma. And Kids estimated that about
14:59
90% of that refugee children are suffering from post traumatic
15:03
stress disorder. Obviously, the majority of them
15:07
have also experienced like levels of intense grief.
15:12
Some of them have experienced torture or violence.
15:15
Almost all of them have been separated from family members in
15:18
some way, shape or form. And so there are layers to it.
15:22
And then you're also trying to navigate a system that you are
15:26
completely unfamiliar with. And I as a parent myself,
15:31
sometimes I find the UK education system a challenge to
15:35
navigate, you know, even just like the, I mean, maybe you have
15:38
a better way and education system, I don't know.
15:41
But even like, you know, there's like the parents WhatsApp groups
15:44
and the school platform for telling you about your child's
15:49
behaviour that day and communicating about trips and
15:52
resources and what they need to bring in on this day and that
15:54
day. And then the platform for
15:57
booking after school clubs or for paying for a school trip or,
16:00
and it's, and everything's got its own different password and
16:03
you kind of feel lost before you started and kind of practical
16:07
barrier as well for parents, even not even just the children
16:12
who are also dealing with all of their own challenges to then try
16:14
and engage with this system that is complicated.
16:18
The level of support available varies.
16:20
And obviously I want to be very clear that there are, there are
16:24
so many schools and teachers that go above out of their way
16:28
to, to include and make that journey easier.
16:32
But it is very, it's different. It's not the same across the
16:35
board. And I think the older refugee
16:40
children are when they arrive, the more these difficulties sort
16:44
of compound because you deal with all of that.
16:46
But then you deal with, let's take GCS ES that you also just
16:50
mentioned. You deal with school reluctance
16:52
to admit students in that year before GCS ES because they're
16:56
worried that it's going to affect their, you know, GCSE
16:58
results profiles because they're taking a 15 year old who's got a
17:03
language barrier and content gaps.
17:04
And you know, I'm not going to get great GCSE results
17:08
potentially. As it turns out, there is
17:11
actually a provision instead of DfE guidance that means that
17:15
these children don't have to be included in GCSE results.
17:18
So but the number of schools that are aware of that provision
17:21
is quite limited. And so we see this kind of
17:23
unnecessary solution when they're like being like held
17:27
back from being admitted in that, you know, GCSE year
17:31
because of that fear that we're told all, all the time about by
17:34
educators. Oh yeah, you know, I heard that
17:35
they're not going to get place because they don't want their
17:37
results profiles to be affected. And it's completely unnecessary.
17:40
Doesn't have to be the case, but you see all of these things kind
17:43
of combine and then and then you get to the further education
17:46
level where eligibility becomes extremely complex and then the
17:51
higher education level when you know the barriers become even
17:53
more sort of impermeable in terms of fee status and access
17:57
to finance and things like that. So we do see that sort of.
18:00
Thread. Of children as they arrive, as
18:06
they progress through the system, It it doesn't always
18:09
pay, it can become harder and harder.
18:11
What about kind of the the way they can translate learning?
18:14
So obviously they appreciate that maybe you would have gaps
18:16
if you took our education system into account in terms of the
18:19
expectations of the meetings sort of SAT levels and then GCC
18:23
levels, et cetera, et cetera. But in terms of translating
18:25
experience and learning. So if they have come from a
18:28
situation that yes, OK, they maybe had, they were home
18:31
learning their entire life or they have had that kind of
18:33
background. But their parents have been, I
18:35
don't know, say for example, they were doctors or they were
18:38
people who have got a good education themselves and they
18:40
have educated their children. But they've obviously come to
18:43
the UK to seek asylum and have now been trying to access a
18:48
school system, etcetera. How much, how, how easy is it
18:51
for sometimes for them to translate the learning that
18:53
they've already got or their their understanding?
18:55
So obviously, I suppose even just a language barrier could
18:58
prevent an awful lot of that. Like if they for example, have
19:01
learnt everything in Arabic, for example, then they may struggle
19:03
then to be able to translate that to to English directly and
19:06
immediately. But actually intelligence level
19:08
wise and an actual understanding of that subject wise, they
19:12
actually have done really well. Do you find that that that
19:15
translation is, is difficult a lot of the time as well for them
19:18
to actually be able to prove that they have got abilities in
19:21
these subjects and they do understand science really well
19:24
or they do understand maths really well.
19:26
But obviously just, I think in one of them, I was reading that
19:27
it's just just understanding doing the GCSE was more about
19:31
understanding how Ed Excel form their papers than it was about
19:34
actually learning mathematical concepts.
19:36
And I mean, this is an argument we have a lot in the UK about
19:39
our education system and the fact that young people are
19:41
basically just being prepared to to pass an exam, not actually
19:46
kind of necessarily having them become passionate about the
19:49
subject. And I think that there's not a
19:50
lot of yeah, innate learning that young people are doing.
19:53
And especially when they're that driven and especially if they've
19:56
come from difficult scenarios that they themselves may have
19:59
been seeking education all their lives and have a lot of
20:01
intelligence in these areas, but aren't necessarily able to
20:04
translate it in a way that we're going to accept, which obviously
20:07
limits their potential. And surely there could be other
20:10
ways of helping them to demonstrate it.
20:12
Yeah. I think one of the things that
20:14
we see all the time is the language ability is like
20:19
correlated sort of with intelligence or academic ability
20:23
across the across the and that exact example that you just
20:28
mentioned that, you know, a child has got language
20:31
challenges. And so it's like, well, they're
20:32
going to be in the, you know, bottom set for everything.
20:35
Or even though they are actually a mathematical genius, it turns
20:38
out I and we, the number of young people that we have seen
20:44
that we've been able to support kind of it through the system.
20:47
They've actually gone on to get, you know, scholarships at high
20:50
level universities and graduated sort of top of their class.
20:54
And it, you know, just it, that, that in itself is testament to
20:58
the fact that that is, it's not the case when you judge a child
21:01
at the level that they might present as being because of,
21:05
because of a combination of language and trauma on arrival
21:09
and is absolutely not indicative of the academic ability and
21:14
potential. So existing academic ability and
21:16
potential that they have. And I think we've probably seen
21:18
two things that have really helped in that space of
21:22
overcoming and not getting stuck in that like, oh, they seem to
21:25
be struggling in the classroom and they can't really speak very
21:28
good English yet. So therefore, and the 1st of
21:31
this would be when schools and other educators have sort of
21:35
proactively looked for opportunities to see what is it
21:39
that this child already has and how can we platform that?
21:43
Say, for example, you mentioned maybe they've learned everything
21:45
in Arabic, but can they, can they do an Arabic GCSE?
21:49
Or, you know, can they can, can Then we we've worked with an
21:52
amazing school who's introduced a whole cluster of mother tongue
21:55
GCS, ES and it's never recognizing, well, that's just
21:58
going to boost their UCAS points ultimately, or whatever,
22:03
whatever it is. Or it's going to mean that
22:04
they've got that GCSE that they need to go into Fe college to do
22:08
that course that they want to do.
22:10
And looking at in the spectrum of the skills and the
22:14
experiences that the child is bringing to the table, even if
22:17
they have got some language barriers, even if they have
22:19
missed out on two years of education or whatever, what can
22:22
we put in place that will give them credit for what they are
22:27
already bringing? And the second thing, actually,
22:29
it's three things. So the second thing would be
22:34
when schools try to incorporate elements of accelerated learning
22:41
into their curriculum. And I'm guessing you are I
22:43
again, I, I am not any kind of home education expert.
22:47
So I'm making like assumptions, but I'm guessing you would know
22:50
a lot about adapting curriculums and accelerating learning for
22:53
children who need it and like giving more focus on pausing on
22:57
a particular other times. So something that's critical
23:01
importance for refugee children who've missed out on things.
23:04
So we, we, one of the things that we are sort of advocating
23:08
for is for schools to have more resources and to be better
23:11
equipped to be able to do more accelerated learning where where
23:16
kids need to be able to hit certain milestones and actually
23:20
can do it. And it doesn't need to take, you
23:23
know, five years. It can happen in, but only with
23:26
like a certain amount of acceleration at key points.
23:29
And that's really great learning sort of internationally about
23:32
how that can happen and places that have much greater numbers
23:36
of refugee children in their education systems or in informal
23:39
systems than we do in the UK that have got brilliant
23:41
accelerated learning and catch up models.
23:44
And the final thing would be when when, when we acknowledge
23:49
that children have got specific talents in specific areas and
23:53
giftings in specific subject areas and schools are able to
23:58
provide like bespoke language support in those areas.
24:02
And so I was talking to a school recently who's developed just on
24:07
the side. They had like a few young people
24:09
who were clearly really good at science, but were just
24:12
struggling with like the technical English science
24:15
related vocabulary. So they've say developed a kind
24:18
of, oh, great, here's how you can thrive in science focus to
24:23
the language support that these children are getting.
24:26
Say that it's not just like, oh, let's start with a generic
24:28
English language support that isn't probably going to get to
24:31
actual science vocabulary for ages.
24:33
But let's see, like where do you have academic ability?
24:37
But the English language component of that is is holding
24:40
you back. And let's target the language
24:42
support in those areas so that you can actually access the
24:45
curriculum and you can, you can make the progress that actually
24:48
you, you can do because you would, you would, you'd be on
24:50
top of your class in science in Ukraine or in, in Iran or in
24:54
whatever it whatever it was. Yeah, it must be.
24:59
It must be really demoralising sometimes for them though, I
25:02
imagine when, especially when they are obviously very gifted
25:06
and so self driven and and obviously have had a gap in
25:10
education that was associated through no fault of their own.
25:12
And they're they're obviously probably going to have continued
25:15
to do their best in whatever situation they're in to maintain
25:18
curiosity and the world experiences that we can gain.
25:21
I mean, a lot of people really see the benefit of like even
25:26
just the concept of being in one country and then being in
25:28
another provides a massive learning opportunity and
25:31
stretches our brain. It gives us a lot of logic
25:33
problems to solve and it gives us a lot of, I say, vocabulary
25:36
to learn and like different situations and cultures to
25:39
absorb. And I mean, we value and say not
25:42
the same, but like the concept of travel and experiencing
25:45
different cultures actually we see as an enriching thing.
25:49
That's something that we see as being really beneficial to our
25:52
education and learning. But I do feel like the stigma
25:54
that comes, comes with refugees obviously coming to a country
25:57
because they've needed to and actually need support because
26:00
obviously their country is in such turmoil that we that we see
26:04
that as a as a downside almost for them that they that they're
26:07
not obviously getting to. Yeah, I don't really understand.
26:11
It doesn't make any sense when you have a look at it from that
26:13
perspective, actually the enrichment and the the
26:15
intelligence that it offers us and the concepts that we're able
26:17
to grasp under duress and in these different situations and
26:21
and having to problem solve and deal with all of these things.
26:23
But actually it demonstrates a a really high level of resilience
26:27
and and capability. Yeah, a really strong character.
26:32
Yeah, I think it's it's really fascinating, isn't it?
26:33
So I think coming from that, the concept of what the the point of
26:36
this series was for sure was to kind of get parents to think
26:40
about these things in a sense of it's important to talk to our
26:43
children about them because they where where one of the things
26:47
that home education maybe may fall down is the fact that
26:51
obviously if a child is going into a classroom, they are going
26:54
to be surrounded by 30 odd children in that group who
26:57
potentially have come from a lot of different walks of life.
27:00
The home education community, through no fault of its own,
27:04
does become quite niche. And it's, it's not that there
27:08
aren't any people who are refugees possibly in our home
27:11
education community, or there are people who are from all over
27:14
different. Like we've got so many friends
27:16
from lots of different countries who speak different languages
27:19
around our children and they eat different foods around our
27:20
children. And so they do experience it.
27:23
And we can absolutely be very conscious of offering these
27:25
opportunities to them. But actually, I hadn't thought
27:30
until very recently to pick up the conversation about refugees
27:33
with my children and to explain in any kind of great capacity
27:37
what they may have been through or what they're experiencing
27:40
when they come here and how incredible they are.
27:43
And the innovations that we get from the wisdom that we share
27:46
with with strangers when we get to meet new people, the things
27:51
we can learn like, because when you get a different perspective,
27:53
someone who is experienced, like for example, that that person
27:55
who wants to become a midwife and go back and support women
27:58
who are struggling to access good healthcare in that moment,
28:03
that the experience leads to innovation that leads to that
28:08
person thinking, well, one person can only do so much.
28:11
What else can I do? Could I collaborate with this
28:13
person? Could I get this charity
28:15
involved? Could I create this?
28:16
Could I create this tool or this kit or this, like whatever.
28:20
And, and these are the people who Dr. innovation that allows
28:24
massive change to happen in the world, because it's those who
28:28
experience things who offer the most perspective.
28:31
And the more we offer our children the chance to talk to
28:35
people or learn from people or see their perspectives, the more
28:38
opportunity there is for collaboration.
28:40
Obviously, you yourself have experienced supporting refugees
28:43
and have now gone on to do all the incredible things you've
28:45
done, but you wouldn't have necessarily done any of that
28:48
unless you'd experienced what you'd experienced and seen what
28:50
you'd seen. And so well, I obviously am very
28:53
conscious of not letting my children grow up in a bubble.
28:56
I don't want them to only know the homemade community, only
28:58
know our experience of life and what our life looks like.
29:02
I want them to see that there's lots of different lived
29:04
experiences because it's through that collaboration and talking
29:07
to those people that we obviously build our future
29:09
lives. So obviously one of the books
29:11
that we're going to recommend people read off the back of this
29:14
episode is The Boy at the Back of the Class, which is about a
29:18
refugee boy who's come to the UK and is joining Auk School.
29:21
So that's a really nice relevant choice for this.
29:23
We'll obviously link that in the the details for this episode,
29:26
but how else can people bridge this conversation with their
29:31
kids? What else could we be talking to
29:32
them about? Like without appreciating age
29:34
level and like their ability to understand these concepts and
29:37
things and obviously being conscious of triggering them
29:40
with with some quite not so pleasant thoughts as well.
29:42
So being careful with it as you feel needed to for your child's
29:45
age. What, what should we be talking
29:48
to them about? What should we be showing them?
29:51
That's yeah, that's a, that's a really beautiful question.
29:54
I there's a beautiful video actually that I have shown in a
29:59
lot of school assemblies that I I should have record the name of
30:03
before we started talking, but I'll send it to you.
30:05
It's made by Save the Children and it's just kind of four
30:09
minute cartoon exploration of what it might feel like to be a
30:17
new refugee child in an education environment and the
30:20
difference that a friend can make in that.
30:24
And my, my daughter, when she was I, I first showed it to her
30:30
when she was 7. And I'm thinking, oh, I wonder
30:32
if this will, I wonder how she'll find it.
30:36
She was like, can I watch it again Mummy, can I watch it
30:38
again? Can I watch it again?
30:40
And she, she wanted to watch it like 5 times on retreat and I've
30:44
used it in a lot of school assemblies ever since.
30:47
So I will share that with you. I think that that could be a
30:50
really lovely resource. But otherwise, I mean that the
30:53
book that you've just mentioned is it's hard to think of
30:56
anything better that's out there.
30:58
There there are some really lovely Osborne resources like
31:02
sort of lift the flap refugees and books that really go into
31:08
sort of some of the misconceptions around
31:10
terminology and look out like what might happen on a on a
31:13
journey to the UK. What might happen when you get
31:15
here? What might have happened in
31:16
someone's country origin, but in a way that isn't, isn't, you
31:21
know, too triggering or or or, you know, it's age appropriate.
31:27
There are, there are there's an author called Gulwali Passele,
31:31
who I would really recommend for older kids, say for teenagers,
31:35
who was a he's an amazing Afghan refugee advocate, incredible
31:41
young guy who wrote about his story.
31:47
And again, I would recommend, I'd recommend that.
31:50
There's, there's another book called No Ballet Shoes in Syria,
31:54
which I is like quite good for young teenagers.
31:57
And particularly when it's aimed at, it's aimed at girls like
32:00
primarily and sort of trying to help kids realize like, Oh yeah,
32:05
like me. It's like it's the going to
32:07
ballet that that you miss and like that that is a normal
32:12
children who are enjoying going to ballet and enjoying going
32:15
swimming and going to the Aunties house for lunch on
32:17
Saturday. And it's all been kind of torn
32:19
apart. And so I think resources like
32:21
that, that emphasize that sort of child to child connection and
32:27
see you as like, oh, this is just a kid like me and whose
32:33
life got disrupted and now they're trying to build it back
32:35
together. And it has been, has been
32:39
really, really helpful. And that anything that spills
32:41
empathy on a person to person level, I think is, is really,
32:47
really useful there. There is an organization called
32:50
Schools of Sanctuary that has quite a lot of resources for
32:53
like teaching about refugees, which are quite useful.
32:57
And so their website is quite a helpful, helpful resource.
33:01
And I know they're doing some like updates and stuff to that
33:03
at the moment. So I'd also recommend licking
33:07
licking at that. That's a brilliant.
33:10
That's really, really great. We'll make sure we obviously
33:12
link all of those in the resources attached to this
33:15
episode. That's really fantastic.
33:17
Thank you. Yeah, I feel like I can really
33:20
relate to that because obviously this is nowhere near the same
33:24
experience at all. But I lived for about 8 or 9
33:28
years in Italy and when I went there I did not have the
33:31
language and just the treatment. You get the assumptions that are
33:35
made right off the bat that because you can't speak the
33:38
language, you are not smart at all.
33:41
You've clearly never worked a day in your life.
33:44
You are just unable to participate.
33:48
It is, it is very humbling and very frustrating and it's very
33:53
hard to want to speak and not be able to get the words out that
33:56
you want to say. And you say it the way a
33:58
three-year old would say it and not the way a grown up would say
34:01
it. And the difference that having a
34:04
friend to come to you, another mom at the preschool pickup to
34:09
come and say like, oh, I speak English.
34:12
Like, do you want to get a cup of coffee?
34:14
And then being able to have a conversation with them that
34:17
you're on that same level is just so incredibly important for
34:22
mental health for you to feel like you filled your cup a
34:27
little bit, like you are a value.
34:29
And I think it's kind of nice to see the growth that can come
34:33
from that. But it just, I'm always
34:36
reminding them we can't judge people based on what we see.
34:39
We have no idea of their experience or what they've been
34:42
through. We need to be supportive.
34:44
We need to give the benefit of the doubt.
34:46
We need to offer our, our friendship and support.
34:50
And we do this, like Kelly was saying, as much as we can within
34:52
our home Ed community, but it is European based.
34:56
So we get just a only a slight sliver of the differences that
35:00
the world has to offer. So we just want to make sure
35:04
that we're intentionally looking for what's missing and then
35:09
looking at ways to bring that to our children so they can
35:12
experience it and kind of add that to their portfolio, for
35:16
lack of a better word. And I mean, do you find yourself
35:20
ever working with families, Catherine?
35:22
Who, like I know, obviously most, most families I imagine
35:27
coming to the UK as asylum seekers, etcetera, are obviously
35:31
the, the use of a school to help provide education.
35:33
So that gives the parents an opportunity to work or to, to
35:36
start earning some money so they can get their feet on the ground
35:38
and actually start to build a life for themselves, etcetera.
35:40
I appreciate that home education is probably not actually
35:42
something which comes up as an elective choice.
35:46
I mean, I'm making assumptions there myself that they may, they
35:48
may find that that's, that's not something which they necessarily
35:51
want to fall into particularly. But do you find some people want
35:54
to want to consider their continue their own education
35:58
individually, that they don't want to utilize schools, they
36:00
want to be able to learn with their children at home.
36:02
Do you find much of that at all in the work you do?
36:05
So it's a really interesting question.
36:08
The the kind of very short answer is like no, we don't find
36:11
very much of it. And you know, for all of the
36:15
reasons that you've mentioned, and I think there is something
36:20
particularly for children who have come from a school
36:23
environment in the country of origin, there's something very
36:26
sort of normalizing and stabilizing about when you do
36:31
get into school, being back in that in a routine in a it's new,
36:35
but it's also it's school. It's got like a program and
36:39
you're making friends and you're their English language, but it's
36:42
spoken language. Once a child is in school, it
36:45
starts to shoot up. And we do find that parents, you
36:51
know, are, are juggling so many responsibilities and challenges
36:57
of their own. And, and then other parents who
37:02
would, you know, other parents who would be perfectly able to
37:06
access their curriculum and support their children in it.
37:08
And other parents whose own educational backgrounds or
37:10
access for education that they had as a child, it would mean
37:15
that they would struggle to access the UK curriculum.
37:18
There was, you know, within the Ukrainian community, we did work
37:23
with a, a significant number of families who for a long time
37:27
were trying to exist in two systems at once.
37:30
And which you can, you know, completely understandable
37:32
because I mean, and this is a kind of an issue across the
37:37
board in refugee education globally.
37:40
You know, when you're displaced, what do you do?
37:42
Do you do you start to follow the curriculum of the country
37:45
that you are now in? Or do you try and maintain the
37:47
curriculum of the country that you have been forced to leave in
37:50
the hope that it's all going to be OK in six months time and
37:53
we'll be back and that will be the exams our kids will be
37:56
doing. And of course, like the
37:58
challenges that nobody knows, you know, like the average
38:01
length of displacement, unfortunately, like these days
38:03
is 17 years. It's globally like regardless of
38:07
the conflict. So it it.
38:09
But yeah, of course, you know, your hope is like, I I want, I
38:15
want to go. I want to go home.
38:16
I want my kids to be back in their own education system.
38:19
I want them to do, you know, I'm not sure if if I was displaced,
38:22
I would be thinking like, but she's got GCSE in two years
38:25
time. I need to keep her on track for
38:27
that rather than like, oh, can she start?
38:29
Can she Start learning Arabic tomorrow, which she doesn't
38:32
speak at all, for example? So, but you know that of course
38:38
also. And so we did, we did see that
38:41
particularly with like Ukrainian children who were doing like
38:44
significant numbers of hours of online learning, like with that
38:50
often with their old schoolmates from their classes in Ukraine
38:53
online, but also, you know, trying to study at a school in
38:58
the UK and it's. Exhausting.
39:03
Yeah, that sounds really tough. And I guess that also kind of
39:06
brings us on to the concept of like lost culture as well.
39:08
Like it must for parents, obviously to be trying to help
39:11
their children to maintain that sense of identity and to be
39:15
proud of it. And to keep that like their
39:17
language and their lived experience and like the
39:20
knowledge of their home, their home alive whilst also trying to
39:24
assimilate within a community must be so, so difficult.
39:28
And like, I think this is where kind of almost every family in
39:32
the world does some form of home learning with their children,
39:35
whether it's around school, it's on the weekends, it's cultural,
39:38
it's your faith, it's whatever it is that you do, right?
39:41
Like everyone is teaching their children their own values and
39:43
their own things at home. And I guess I love the fact that
39:47
obviously they are trying to obviously help them to get
39:49
Arabic GCSEs and to offer them a chance to allow their skills
39:53
that they do have that would have counted for something.
39:56
They would have 100% counted for something at home.
39:59
And now they're here and it still needs to count for
40:02
something. It's not fair that it doesn't
40:04
that those children potentially have worked so hard to get to
40:06
the level they are in whatever subjects that they were
40:08
prioritizing at home. And to be able to translate that
40:11
is so important. But also to really value this
40:14
like the the culture and the identity of these individuals
40:19
that I do feel like often. Again, a lot of the hate
40:23
language around it is very much about assimilation and people
40:26
kind of conforming to being part of the British culture and to
40:30
like within the realms of sensibility.
40:33
I think it's a real shame when people have that attitude
40:37
because ultimately I just think that I don't really see why that
40:40
matters at all. Like mostly I want people to be
40:43
themselves. There is so much value and I
40:47
want to see people being themselves and learn from them
40:49
about their lived experiences and the foods they eat and the
40:52
language they speak. I mean, I'm a friend of mine
40:54
speaks Czech and it's such a beautiful language to listen to.
40:59
And it's, it's a really funny story.
41:01
It's a camping trip we did a couple of years ago where we
41:04
went with someone who spoke Czech with her children, a lady
41:06
who speaks Swiss German with her children and a lady who speaks
41:09
Italian with her children. And so I have a group of five or
41:12
six people. There's like 3 British families
41:14
speaking English and the rest of them were speaking English to us
41:17
but then check to their kids or whatever.
41:20
And by the end of the week my youngest who was four at the
41:22
time, had created her own language and was starting to
41:26
talk to me in gobbledygook and expected me to understand it.
41:30
And I didn't twig for a few days that what she had done was start
41:34
to think that, hang on a minute, all these children have got a
41:36
secret language with their parents.
41:39
Why? Why don't we have one?
41:41
And it took, it honestly took months for her to stop doing it
41:44
where she was just making up words and saying that means that
41:47
mummy and I was just like, OK, but she kept changing it all the
41:50
time. It's so funny.
41:51
But like that, that ability for her to recognize that there were
41:54
other languages going on around her and how beautiful that is.
41:57
And she was curious about it and open and interested in it.
42:00
And I just, I want to see us behaving that way that much
42:04
more. And like, we're very briefly,
42:06
myself and Ashley were talking before we got on about kind of
42:08
adults coming over as well who are doctors or who have like
42:12
worked so hard. They've got such incredible
42:13
qualifications. And it doesn't translate.
42:15
And I think this is, this is obviously, yeah, you must be so
42:18
passionate about all of this. Yeah, completely.
42:21
And I, I, I honestly, I feel like sometimes I can't believe
42:25
that I get to do the job that I do because I have over the last
42:29
15 years, the number of just incredible young people.
42:34
I mean, I couldn't, I can't even begin to summarize what I have
42:38
learnt and how much my, my world view and life has been enriched
42:46
by the young people that I've had the privilege of spending
42:48
time with and meeting and learning like bits about, Yeah,
42:53
how they see the world and what's important to them.
42:55
And I, it also reminds me of one of my favorite things that a
42:59
head teacher has ever said to me.
43:01
And this is the head teacher of a large inner city comprehensive
43:08
in London. That's boys only until sixth
43:12
form and then and then mixed. And it's in an area of like, you
43:17
know, high deprivation, Anna. And it has a large community of
43:21
refugee students in the in the school.
43:24
And he said to me, enrolling refugee students into this
43:29
school is the single best thing I have done in terms of
43:33
improving the behaviour, increasing the empathy and
43:37
boosting the academic motivation of the students of this school
43:42
across the board. Because we've had this group of
43:45
kids come into the school who A understand what it is to not
43:49
have education and who aren't taking it for granted, who are
43:52
sort of looping back to what you're saying right at the
43:54
start. Kelly really driven and want to
43:58
like grab the opportunity that they've got in front of them
44:00
with both hands, like for themselves and for the people
44:03
around them and who are bringing this like rich diversity and
44:08
culture of like different foods and like it's a different way of
44:10
thinking about life, but from a place that like shared humanity
44:15
and being friends with each other.
44:18
And I just I just thought that was brilliant from a, you know,
44:22
from an inner city London head teacher.
44:25
But it's like, what? What?
44:26
What more could you? What more could you want than
44:29
that? Yeah, that's such a powerful
44:33
statement, isn't it? It reminds me, Kelly, of the
44:36
comment we heard. We were speaking to a gentleman
44:38
in America a couple weeks ago. And his comment was the greatest
44:42
way to reduce or get rid of racism is to travel with your
44:48
kids. And if you can't do that, it's
44:53
we should be taking advantage of these opportunities for these
44:56
other cultures to come to ours so we can see them, we can
44:59
experience them. We can appreciate the
45:02
differences and realize how much they add to humanity, to all of
45:07
us. And I, I think that, wow, I love
45:11
that that he said that and that he's seeing the beauty of that.
45:14
Yeah. I honestly can't think of a
45:17
better way to round up that episode.
45:18
It feels like a really good note to end on.
45:20
It's such an important thing to remember.
45:22
And I hope that all of us can, can take a leaf out of that book
45:26
in terms of making sure that we take the time to say hello to
45:29
people. That we encourage our children
45:31
to be open, accepting of all people.
45:35
And to, to take the time and to be patient and to allow someone
45:38
the time to, to fall over their words for a minute and try and
45:40
get out what they want to say. And to, to remember that that
45:43
person is an equal and they are human just like we are human.
45:47
And I think that for the most part, we, we are that way in the
45:50
home education community. I want to be generalist, but I
45:52
do feel like we do care an awful lot about every individual.
45:56
And so it's a shout out, I guess, to anybody who may be in
45:59
a situation where you want to be home educator, you want to be
46:02
part of the community, know that you are very welcome as well.
46:05
And we want to hear your journey.
46:08
So, yeah, thank you so much, Catherine.
46:10
Honestly, this has been such a moving conversation.
46:12
I found myself get goosebumps a few times.
46:14
And I just really, I really hope that people will take a lot from
46:17
this as well. But we'll certainly let you know
46:19
what feedback we get. But yeah, thank you so much.
46:22
For having me, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to
46:26
both of you and I'm listening to both of you as well this
46:29
morning. So thank you.
46:31
Thank you. Thank you, Catherine, you've
46:38
been listening to the Big Home Ed Conversations podcast.
46:41
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46:44
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46:58
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