Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #249 Best of - Discipline, Punishment & Rewards with Alfie Kohn

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#249 Best of - Discipline, Punishment & Rewards with Alfie Kohn · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers now?
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: The research is very clear reward like punishments can only
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  Speaker 2: get temporary compliance, and in both cases they retard moral
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  Speaker 2: and social and intellectual development.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mom
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 3: It's the Happy Famili's podcast, the podcast for the time
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: or parent who just wants answers Now. Hello, I'm doctor
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Justin Colson here with my wife and co host. I
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  Speaker 3: got in trouble for saying that Kylie was my co host.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: She said, no, no, no, I'm wife and co host. So
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  Speaker 3: we're going to get this right. Here with my wife
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  Speaker 3: and co host, missus Happy Families, Kylie, thank you for
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: being here.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you.
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  Speaker 3: We're the parents of six kids. I've written six books
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  Speaker 3: about raising happy families and today on the podcast something
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  Speaker 3: pretty big.
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  Speaker 4: I'm pretty excited about our interview today. We're going to
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  Speaker 4: talk to someone who's been on OPRAH. Do you know
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  Speaker 4: how big a deal that is?
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  Speaker 3: I haven't been on Oprah, so I don't know it's
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  Speaker 3: a big deal. I'd love to be on over that
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: would be I would.
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  Speaker 4: Love you to be on Oprah too. That means I
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  Speaker 4: might actually get to meet her. Time magazine has described
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  Speaker 4: him as being perhaps the country's most outspoken critic on
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  Speaker 4: education's fixation with grades and test scores, and justin he
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  Speaker 4: probably is one of the biggest influences on you of
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  Speaker 4: any author I know.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know. If I was to put a list
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  Speaker 3: together of people that I would love to interview for
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  Speaker 3: this podcast, this guy would be very told the list,
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  Speaker 3: and we've got him. So I'm crazy exciting. I'm ecstatic.
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  Speaker 3: Alfie Kohane is the name of the person we're speaking
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  Speaker 3: to in just a sec. He's a very very well
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  Speaker 3: known author and writer around parenting and education in those
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  Speaker 3: kinds of areas. In nineteen ninety three, Alfie wrote a
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  Speaker 3: book that was called Punished by Rewards, and that was
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  Speaker 3: pretty much the central reason that I left my radio
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  Speaker 3: career and went back to school to study psychology. Alfie
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  Speaker 3: is the reason that I am, in many ways who
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  Speaker 3: I am today. His influence has been far reaching, and
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  Speaker 3: he's affected not just me, but our family and obviously
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  Speaker 3: thousands and thousands and tens of thousands, if not millions,
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  Speaker 3: of parents around the globe. So so excited to be
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  Speaker 3: able to talk to Alfie today.
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  Speaker 4: You know, I actually remember when you brought that book
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  Speaker 4: home and you wanted me to read it. It's not
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  Speaker 4: a book for the faint hearted. It was a really,
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  Speaker 4: really intense book. But I remember how excited you were
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  Speaker 4: about all of the concepts you were learning, and specifically
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  Speaker 4: actually having an opportunity to talk to Alfie on the
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  Speaker 4: phone for the first time. I remember that.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, not only did I talk to him, but then
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  Speaker 3: a few years later he was in Australia and I
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  Speaker 3: got to hang out with him. In fact, I drove
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  Speaker 3: him from the central coast of New South Wales down
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  Speaker 3: to Sydney because he needed transport, and I was the
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  Speaker 3: one that contacted the organizers and said, what do you need?
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  Speaker 3: How can I help? And they said, oh, we really
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  Speaker 3: need someone to take him for a drive. I said
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  Speaker 3: I can do that. So that was pretty epic. And Alfie,
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  Speaker 3: we've got you here right now, Alfie, can I start Hubert?
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  Speaker 4: I'd love to ask you a question when we think
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  Speaker 4: about punishment and discipline together, why is punishment such a
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  Speaker 4: lousy way to discipline our kids?
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  Speaker 2: Because punishment teaches power, it undermines the possibility of moral
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  Speaker 2: growth in children. If I say to kids, do this,
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  Speaker 2: or here's how I'm going to make you suffer, which
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  Speaker 2: is what punishment is. And by the way, you can
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  Speaker 2: call it consequences, it's still the same thing. It says
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  Speaker 2: to kids, do this or here's what I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: do to you. Then kids are first of all thinking
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  Speaker 2: only about themselves, how do I avoid the punishment, never
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  Speaker 2: about the impact of their actions on others. All use
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  Speaker 2: of consequences, punishment focuses kids narrowly on self interest. And secondly,
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  Speaker 2: what they have modeled for them is that someone who
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  Speaker 2: has more power than they do can coerce them into
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  Speaker 2: doing whatever or she wants. And that's the main lesson
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  Speaker 2: that kids learn. Sometimes they take it out on others
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  Speaker 2: that very same day when they come across peers who
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  Speaker 2: have less power than they do. So punishment is a
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  Speaker 2: way of doing things to children, and the only way
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  Speaker 2: we help kids become good people is by working with them.
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  Speaker 2: To put it slightly differently, the only thing you can
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  Speaker 2: ever get from any kind of punishment from forcible isolation
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  Speaker 2: which is euphemistically called time out, to withdrawal of privileges
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  Speaker 2: or yelling, spanking, whatever, it is the only thing you
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  Speaker 2: can ever get is temporary compliance at an enormous cost.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that reminds me a story that I love to tell.
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  Speaker 3: When I was about fifteen years old, I was I
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  Speaker 3: was in the kitchen, my little sister was driving me
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  Speaker 3: up the wall, and I said a word that we're
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  Speaker 3: not supposed to use in my family. You know, we
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  Speaker 3: had some very strict rules around the kind of language
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  Speaker 3: we use. And I called my sister a stupid ead.
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  Speaker 3: Today I said something like, oh, shut up, your stupid idiot.
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  Speaker 3: My mom heard and came dashing into the kid. She said, justin,
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  Speaker 3: we don't speak like that in this house. You need
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  Speaker 3: to say sorry to your sister right now. And so
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  Speaker 3: he's a false apology. So I'm obviously being dishonest when
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  Speaker 3: I apologize. But I looked at my sister and I said,
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  Speaker 3: to a fine Carena, I'm sorry, you're a stupid idiot,
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  Speaker 3: which obviously made a lot of sense to my fifteen
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  Speaker 3: year old brain, but it infuriated my mum, who, with
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  Speaker 3: the best of intentions, said, you go to your room
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  Speaker 3: right now and you think about what you just said.
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  Speaker 3: And you know, Alfie, I went, I had.
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  Speaker 2: Any child in history ever thought in a constructive way
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  Speaker 2: after being forcibly isolated. What you're thinking about in that
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  Speaker 2: room is how unfair it is that you're there, how
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  Speaker 2: you're misunderstood, and how you're going to get back at
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  Speaker 2: your sister when your mother isn't looking. Never can you
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  Speaker 2: get a response by simply making kids unhappy by taking
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  Speaker 2: things away from them or putting them in their rooms
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  Speaker 2: or whatever and forced apologies, Well, that teaches kids to lie. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: what say things that they don't believe.
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  Speaker 3: I was going to say is that I went to
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  Speaker 3: my room. I sat on my bed, and I thought
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  Speaker 3: carefully about how I was an impediment to my family's happiness,
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  Speaker 3: and I resolved to be a bit of human. But
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  Speaker 3: I didn't really I did exactly yes what you said.
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  Speaker 3: I was furious about my mom and how she didn't
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  Speaker 3: understand me. It really ruptured my relationship in that moment, right,
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  Speaker 3: and boy boy, I couldn't wait to get back at
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  Speaker 3: my sister when mom wasn't watching.
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  Speaker 2: Right, And the alternative to anticipate maybe where you're going next?
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  Speaker 2: Since then, no, we have very limited time. That is
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  Speaker 2: offered to many parents is instead of using sticks, use tarrots.
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  Speaker 2: Instead of controlling them by making them suffer if they
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  Speaker 2: don't do what you want, give them a doggy biscuit
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  Speaker 2: if they do do what you want. But rewards are
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  Speaker 2: just the flip side of punishment. So if I threatened
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  Speaker 2: to punish a kid, I'm saying do this. There, here's
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  Speaker 2: what I'm going to do to you. If I reward
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  Speaker 2: children or offer to reward them, I'm saying, do this
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  Speaker 2: and you'll get that. So in the first case, with punishment,
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  Speaker 2: kids come to ask question what do they want me
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  Speaker 2: to do and what happens to me if I don't
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  Speaker 2: do it? If you offer a reward for good behavior,
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  Speaker 2: which typically means mindlessly obedient, not generous or thoughtful, but
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  Speaker 2: then the question kids come to ask is what do
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  Speaker 2: they want me to do and what do I get
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  Speaker 2: for doing it? And so the research is very clear
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  Speaker 2: that rewards, like punishments, can only get temporary compliance, and
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  Speaker 2: in both cases they retard moral and social and intellectual development,
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  Speaker 2: because we have hundreds of studies showing that the more
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  Speaker 2: you reward people for doing something, the more they tend
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  Speaker 2: to lose interest in whatever they had to do to
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  Speaker 2: get the reward. So, on the one hand, if you
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  Speaker 2: want to destroy children's interest in reading. For example, you
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  Speaker 2: would offer a prize for reading a book because now
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  Speaker 2: you've taught them that reading is something you would never
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  Speaker 2: want to do, and it becomes devalued. They say, well,
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  Speaker 2: you know, if this was so much fun, they wouldn't
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  Speaker 2: have to bribe me to do it. But the other
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  Speaker 2: reason that it devalues, that that kids lose interest in
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  Speaker 2: whatever they're rewarded for doing is because it's control. If
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  Speaker 2: I punish a kid for doing something, it's obvious I'm controllingum.
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  Speaker 2: But what a lot of parents don't realize is if
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  Speaker 2: they reward kids, and that includes verbal rewards like good job,
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  Speaker 2: I really like thewau dot dot dot, this is just
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  Speaker 2: a verbal doggie biscuit, and all rewards are just sugar
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  Speaker 2: coated control, and kids don't like being controlled. So we
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  Speaker 2: have research that shows that almost anything that kids are
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  Speaker 2: rewarded for doing becomes less appealing to them. They have
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  Speaker 2: less commitment to it over the long haul of Several
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  Speaker 2: studies have shown a couple of just in the last
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  Speaker 2: few years that children who are frequently rewarded or praised
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  Speaker 2: by their parents are less generous and helpful than other kids,
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  Speaker 2: and the effect is most pronounced if they're rewarded or
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  Speaker 2: praised for being helpful. So you are undermining with the
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  Speaker 2: use of any kind of reward, including praise, or punishment,
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  Speaker 2: including time out. The only alternatives to this are not
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  Speaker 2: quite so easy to script or to save a one
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  Speaker 2: size fits all when you do this, when your kid
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  Speaker 2: does this, you should do that. So it's frustrating because
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  Speaker 2: you actually have to think as opposed to being scripted
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  Speaker 2: out by a parenting expert. But rewards and punishments are ways,
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  Speaker 2: as they say, of doing things to children, forms of control.
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  Speaker 2: What helps us to become the best parents we can
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  Speaker 2: is to figure out ways of working with them to
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  Speaker 2: solve problems.
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  Speaker 3: Lots of people say that it's not a big deal.
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: I want to get you a take on.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: It right after the It's the Happy Families Podcast US
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: Screens Creating Tension at Home, tweens, teens and Screens is
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: a webinar to guide families to healthy, safe superscreen solutions.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: Bye today at happyfamilies dot com dot au slash shop.
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families Podcast. The podcast for the time
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  Speaker 4: poor parent who just wants answers? Now, Alvie, what about
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: those parents who would say, but I just can't get
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: my kids to do anything without a reward. You know
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  Speaker 4: those parents who are using reward charts or other ways
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  Speaker 4: of coercing the children to do the household chores. Some
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  Speaker 4: parents would actually say that the kids are more motivated
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  Speaker 4: by using them.
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  Speaker 2: Right, And the question is not how do we motivate kids?
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  Speaker 2: The question is how are kids motivated. For the last
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  Speaker 2: few decades, psychologists have helped us understand that there are
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  Speaker 2: different kinds of motivation, and the kind matters more than
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  Speaker 2: the amount. Specifically, psychologists talk about the difference between intrinsic motivation,
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: which means you do something because you want to do it,
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  Speaker 2: because you get a kick out of it, it's satisfying,
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  Speaker 2: and extrinsic motivation, which is where you do it to
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  Speaker 2: avoid a punishment or to get a reward. And what
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  Speaker 2: we know from research as well as experience is that
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  Speaker 2: the two tend to be inversely related. So the child
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  Speaker 2: who seems quote motivated to do it in order to
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  Speaker 2: get the gold star, the ice cream, calm, a good job, whatever,
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  Speaker 2: has more extrinsic motivation, and as a direct result, is
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  Speaker 2: now less committed to being a helpful person, less interested
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  Speaker 2: in whether his actions around the house are making other
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  Speaker 2: people feel good. So I guess when I see the
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  Speaker 2: When parents say you know they work, I always ask
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  Speaker 2: work to do what what's your goal? You can get
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  Speaker 2: mindless obedience in the short run if the reward is
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  Speaker 2: juicy enough or the punishment is awful enough. What you
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  Speaker 2: can never get is a child who is happy, more ethical,
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  Speaker 2: more compassionate, or caring, more of an independent thinker, all
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  Speaker 2: of the things we parents want in the long run
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  Speaker 2: for our goal. Rewards like star charts and stickers in
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  Speaker 2: the life actually get in the way of those more ambitious, meaningful,
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  Speaker 2: long term goals.
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  Speaker 3: If I'm not going to use punishments and I'm not
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  Speaker 3: going to use rewards, what does Alfie Cone and the
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  Speaker 3: research suggest would be the best way to respond to
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  Speaker 3: this child who is just driving me.
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  Speaker 2: Up the wall? Talk less, ask more. There's no one
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  Speaker 2: size fits all solution. As I indicated before, everything will
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: depend on what's going on in this child's environment and
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: in this child's head. Five different kids who are seen
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  Speaker 2: as difficult or troubling or making us go crazy and
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  Speaker 2: pushing our buttons, maybe doing it for five completely different reasons,
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  Speaker 2: and each of those and calls for a different course
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  Speaker 2: of action. I mean, this is the thing when I
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  Speaker 2: wrote my book Unconditional Parenting, which is get specifically to
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  Speaker 2: looking at parenting punished by rewards, also looks at schools
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  Speaker 2: and workplaces as well as families. But I had to
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: in the working with section be what do we do instead,
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  Speaker 2: you know, break the bad news that I'm not going
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  Speaker 2: to give you a magic formula. If a child is
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  Speaker 2: acting this way rolling the eyes, because frankly we're saying
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  Speaker 2: stuff that deserves an eye rolling, then the problem is
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  Speaker 2: not the kid. The problem is with what we have
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  Speaker 2: been doing that we need to rethink, and we need
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: to come to the child and say, I'm really frustrated
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  Speaker 2: sometimes by your attitude here, and I want to hear
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  Speaker 2: where it's coming from. And then you have to listen
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  Speaker 2: for the answer without getting defensive or huffy. And then
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  Speaker 2: when there's a particular problem, like we want to get
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: the house clean, I don't know about using a different
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  Speaker 2: technique to get the kid's room clean. I mean, it's
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  Speaker 2: the kid's room, and why would the kid have to
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: keep it up to our standards? In other words, the
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  Speaker 2: premise of the question here ought to be called into question.
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  Speaker 2: Don't ask how do I get the kid to do X?
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  Speaker 2: If I can't use punishments and rewards, begin by asking
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  Speaker 2: whether X really needs to be done. But if we're
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: convinced it does, like everybody should pitch in with stuff
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  Speaker 2: around dinner, then I would be asking the child, you
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  Speaker 2: know what's the problem here? What can be done? What
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: do you think you can do in order to help
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  Speaker 2: help things go smoothly whenever possible. Kids learn to make
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: good decisions by making decisions, not by following directions, and
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  Speaker 2: so we end up getting kids who are happier to
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: participate because they feel trusted and respected as a result
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  Speaker 2: of our asking about their experience and responding appropriately rather
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  Speaker 2: than mindlessly and unilaterally try to impose our demands and
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: agenda on them.
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  Speaker 3: It sounds like something that I share with parents is
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: what I call the three ease of effective discipline. And
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  Speaker 3: when I say discipline, I mean discipline is teaching and
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  Speaker 3: guiding and instructing. It's helping our children to internalize those
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  Speaker 3: things that matter most. So I talk about how we
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  Speaker 3: need to explore their world, explore why they're struggling with
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  Speaker 3: this question that we've asked, which helps us to understand
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  Speaker 3: whether it was a good question or a good behavior
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: or requested in the first place, and then we explain
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: what our rationale is so that they can at least
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: see what our perspective is, and then we empower them
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: to work together with us to find a solution that's
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: mutually agreeable. It sounds to me like that's the kind
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: of process that you're describing.
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  Speaker 2: Uh yes, but with not to throw away, but to
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: really linger on the problem. On that one aspect that
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: a lot of times when kids don't do what we've
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: told them, the problem is with what we've told them,
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: and so we have to begin by being willing to
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: question the premise, whether it's what we're asking of them
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: is reasonable, whether it's developmentally appropriate, and so on, and
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  Speaker 2: then to keep checking back with them if let them
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  Speaker 2: propose a solution, and then let's talk about it later
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: to see how it's going.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, it sounds like effective exploration is the central pillar there, Alfie.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: This has just been such an awesome conversation. Thank you
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: so much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: speaking about the problems of punishment and rewards being used
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: as a way to get our kids to do what
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: we want them to do. Thanks so much for listening
• 16:31
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• 16:34
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  Speaker 3: five star review coming in the last day or so.
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: We sure have. Mookie wat said, my friend recommended this
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: podcast channel and I'm so glad I gave it a go.
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: It was great content and very relatable. My daughter is
• 16:51
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• 16:55
  Speaker 4: to parenting and start working on those techniques that have
• 16:58
  Speaker 4: been discussed.
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• 17:27
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