Latest / Skin Anarchy / Rewriting Allergy Care with Lorne Lucree of Wizard Wellness

Transcript

Rewriting Allergy Care with Lorne Lucree of Wizard Wellness · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is a wonderful episode.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so thrilled about it.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: I've been waiting for a long time to record this episode because I have a very dear friend with me today and I am probably his forever fan.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: We had him on the podcast before and he shared so many insights with us because he is truly one of the leaders in the beauty industry.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: He has worked with, I mean, think of any major brand, he's worked with them, he's advised them, he's been behind the scenes.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so his perspective, when I look at his perspective, it's literally the full understanding of the beauty landscape.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so to now speak to him about his own brand is incredibly full circle.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado ado, I want to introduce you guys again to Lauren LeCreek.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Lauren.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so honored to host you.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to be here.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: And likewise, you're such a legend.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for having me.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's it's such an honor.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: Every time I talk to you, I just like I just so much happiness comes into my life because you're such a positive person.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: And like even like when I look at your brand and the way you've created it, and just like I don't want to spoil it for our listeners yet because I want to dive in, but it's just so it's so fun, you know?
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the energy and the vibes, and I don't know.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: I just love it.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to dive in, but I first I want to like kind of reacquaint everybody with your background because you are a legend, you know, in the beauty industry.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: You literally have like seen it all, you know, done it all, you've worked with so many brands.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Tell us a little bit, like give us like the elevator version of like everything you've been involved with in the beauty space.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like just kind of walk us down memory lane a little bit.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh God, are you calling me old, Ekta?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is this what you're no?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm calling you incredibly accomplished for being so young.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank God for all this uh prestige skincare.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Glad to have had a career that's been a bit like a dynamic, but I'd call it like a portfolio approach to like, I think, say beauty.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: So not quite linear, but I'd say purposeful and will make sense as we talk about the brand.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: But uh started my career in beauty at L'Oreal in global marketing, uh, moved to Estee Lauder, working at Clinique and kind of technical product development, um, then moved to a company called Luxury Brand Partners, which was one of the first kind of luxury brand incubators at the time, working in a brand called RCO hair care in product development and innovation.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: So encompassing kind of packaging and formulation, uh, which then expanded to uh create a brand called IGK in partnership with Sephora at the time.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then that expanded to create a color cosmetics line called Smith Colts, uh, a hair care bron called um uh in common with the 901 girls, uh V76 with men's line, uh, and then uh One Size with Patrick Starr.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then continued my career curious about the uh operations and manufacturing side.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: So moved to Voyant Beauty as chief innovation officer.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Voy and beauty is the largest beauty and personal care contract manufacturer in North America.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: So formulating and filling for a lot of the brands you see in Sephora and Ulta, and on actually mass retail shelves and mastige retail shelves.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: So there for about four years, and then spent a year and change at Unilever Prestige advising their portfolio brands on innovation strategy with a heavy hand on Tatcha skincare, uh revamping their NPD portfolio and creating some of the things you see today, like the Dewey Milk Moisturizer and our longevity portfolio.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I feel like you've seen that's what I mean.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like you've like seen this entire landscape.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Not only have you been involved, but like see it move, you know.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's one of my biggest questions for you is like, you know, when you were sitting down with the concept, like trying to like map out your concept for your brand, what were some of the major things about the industry that you were like, these are things I want to maybe change, or like, you know, just I don't know, do differently.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, did you have that conversation with yourself like internally?
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where would I, you know, change things or not I don't even want to use the word change, like more like modify or like expand on, you know?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that well, first I'm like, I I purposely I think chose wellness.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think overall, I think uh where I found success in my career and what actually makes me passionate is uh and as a creative as a creative developer is applying kind of cross-category insights and um to different categories.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, before skinification of hair was a thing, you know, was was thinking that way humbly, uh, you know, and because I think that's you know, I always found that that's an easy way to get consumers to understand.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And that's always the goal for us is to get consumers to buy into the product and get excited without having to educate a ton.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's such so whether it was applying color, color theory and our IGK color, you know, toning drops, which was the first pull purple drops to tone that you could add in and mix in, which was inspired by cover effects that we brought into hair care, right?
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: Or um or skincare ingredients into into hair care or or Patrick bringing aerosol hair hair care technology into the settings once I uh on tilt on setting spray, like things like that.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that because I think that's um that's really fun.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and if when you look at Wizard, it's literally bringing everything I've loved about, I'd say uh beauty, skincare, hair care, and wellness into allergy.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it all applies, to be honest.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like sci like it's credible, it's it's science-facted, etc.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: But it's all actually, I think, intriguing and provocative to the consumer to get them interested.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: So when I when you read a P page about a nasal spray, it should read like a face mist, which is the goal to get you excited.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that was my goal of of trying to kind of think differently about this.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that I think that's a reflection of where the when where the industry is moving, is that it's all becoming so gray.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: You've we talked about this.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the everything is is melding and like wellness is becoming beauty, is becoming uh it's all it's all, and you've seen this this mesh mash happening, which is awesome.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's this holistic approach to inside out and people thinking holistically about their their appearance and and that's linked to their mood and how they feel about themselves, and it's all and their sleep and it's all related, you know?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I mean, I honestly like the first word that comes to mind for me is longevity now, you know.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's and you know, I think that is such a solid point you made because wellness was never supposed to be separate.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you I mean, from my when I think about it as a scientist, it was should never be separate from beauty, right?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because wellness is beauty, beauty is wellness, and and I think we lost that.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: I remember there were a few years there where we were kind of like floundering, you know, it felt like that at least, like the beauty industry.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, in the sense of like we were making products, products were coming out regularly, but that wellness part was just like, where is that?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like the overall like play.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's really fascinating that you've brought wellness forward in such a fun way, in such a real way, because like, you know, and I want to dive into that.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, like allergy immunology, it's a huge field, and it's an incredibly underdeveloped field on the consumer side, as I'm sure you know much more than me.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I can only tell you as a consumer walking down the aisles, you know, when I see these nasal drops that are literally thinning the mucosa, you know, uh, and then I think the damage that's done over time, that it's an incredibly outdated area.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, let's talk about that a little bit.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what what was that initial homework that was there for you when you were trying to go into this new category, you know, and and trying to understand it?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, well, the hours I spent in CVS and in South Orange, New Jersey, my god Christ.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like they thought it would I'm sure I'm on a list somewhere, like that they're like, yeah, you're on their VIP list.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe, I mean, hopefully, all right, that I've moved to get distribution, maybe.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, what you see is like that aisle is like it's so pharma dominated.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, I'd say a lot of fragmented natural and homeopathic solutions.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of the dynamic happening in the aisle.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think that's it's been that way for a very long time.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think that that's been, and the innovation in the aisle has been driven by uh the kind of the movement of the these far these APIs moving from kind of uh prescription only to OTC.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So that's you know, the last one I think was in the late in 2016 or 2017.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's that kind of drives excitement.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then these new new ones become available, and that's but it's but it's big headline is it's pharma pharma innovation driven um and so dominated.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and that in that in combination with allergy is just not it's not like it's not not like Sephora where people are scrolling on their app looking for new exciting things.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: People aren't that excited about the product, so they don't they're not shopping proactively or they're shopping reactively.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it's you know, you wake up, you have allergies, you're just you're going to the store and you're just buying whatever is there.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's in combination, then it's just kind of like you, there's not a whole lot of incentive to put new innovation out because consumers aren't really, you know, looking for it on the other side because they're just going and buying whatever is there.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that is uh that is that combination just hasn't really like I think uh spurred a lot of innovation in the aisle, to be quite honest.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh so that to me was um uh an unlock.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: We did a lot of we did a 600-person survey at the beginning of this journey to understand because I know why allergies suck for me, but I wanted to understand why they suck for everybody else.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we realized only 7% of consumers said that they would be loyal or extremely loyal to their current solutions, which makes sense because I've never heard I'll tell you, I've had a lot of conversations about allergies.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: Never once have I had one that was like, let me tell you about how much I love my current, you know, solution, my current you know, nasal spray.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like never.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, never so uh so that's you know, so very low loyalty.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: 8084 uh 84% would change for a better performance, 78% would change for better experience.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this like performance, but experience matters.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that was to me was the unlock of like if it tastes better, if it looks better, if it's doesn't, if it doesn't thin my mucosa, if it doesn't burn, if it doesn't like all these things where you're like, oh my god, like what are they doing to you?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like Christ, like oh my god, like 100% like so, like if you can close that gap, then like then that's like that's like a holy grail.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what we had in mind of like listen, like it's gotta be efficacious, but actually if you can make it like taste all those things from skin, all the things from beauty and wellness, like if you make it taste good, if you make it like feel the scent, the texture matters, the packaging matters, all those other things matter that we know from beauty.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's the thing.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like a you know, anyway, yeah.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean that's I it's brilliant, and I and I love your insights because it really makes you think because beauty, I think the thing that beauty has done right, I think so for so long is that exactly what you were saying, that discoverability component where you can play, you can have fun with it, you can find something that vibes with you, you know, and I think that really is something like health, like more health-heavy products, you know, like pharma-based products, like they just don't think about that.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: The consumer experience is everything, it it dictates, you know, if you talk to any clinician, they'll tell you, like, you know, getting people to stick to their medication regimen is a huge problem, you know, patient compliance, like, and where does patient compliance come from?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta want to use the thing, you know, and it's like you if you don't have options and if you don't, you know, vibe with whatever you're using, or if it's not accessible to you easily, like you can't drop it in your bag, take it with you, you're not embarrassed to pull it out, those kind of components.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: If that's not built in, people are patients are not gonna use their products, and it's going to lead to worsening, you know, of symptoms and worsening of you know, everything.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, that's huge what you mentioned.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why I am so fascinated with how you have approached wizard wellness is this idea of like, no, let's keep it efficacious, but let's bring in the fun part, you know, and and that's really cool.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that and the compliance that like actually, um, if you talk to any allergist nasal rinsing, is like uh do you netipod by the way?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever netipod?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: I have before, I don't currently.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that involves so it's like the number it's the number one recommended way to prevent or alleviate allergy symptoms.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: So because it's just like cleansing your body, it makes sense, logically, but people don't do it because there's a lot of friction, right?
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like boil water, you know, the whole thing.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I every time I move, I have like, you know, 600 salt packets in my house that I throw away because it's like I never inevitably like never, you know.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and uh I think but the key actually the unlock with it is actually it's most efficacious when you do it preventatively, when you just when you start ahead of time, but nobody, you don't consumers aren't trained to think about it.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's actually when we talk about longevity, I think that's the interesting thing of like uh convincing consumers to actually do things before the symptoms appear, right?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: So like you know, when you like making them believe actually that's you can actually have your like sliding doors moment, you can actually you can control your destiny and actually, you know, if you start to incorporate this into a regimen or a ritual ahead of time and start to like live a bit more of a like a wellness um or more holistic, you know, um approach.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so that's like the long-term goal, I think, at the end of the day, about compliance, actually using it daily.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's when you have the real unlock for sure.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, yeah.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I like that you uh, you know, I like that we're we're tying in longevity here because for a long time, I think longevity is getting a bad rap, you know, and it makes me kind of sad to see that because it's like the I don't know, the term is like the first term I've seen in a long time that like defines like truly taking care of yourself for a long time, you know?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like I don't know.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I I just I feel like these are the kind of products I think about.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I think about longevity, I'm thinking about what is my everyday care, you know, that I'm using for myself.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think these products play such a huge role because people now are like more health conscious than ever before.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: We're always thinking, like, how can I, you know, enhance my routine?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: How can I fix something?
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: What, you know, whatever it might be.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_01: But like if you don't have the options available, there's no progress, you know, whether that's medicine, whether that's consumer behavior, it doesn't matter across the board.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where I find it to be amazing that you launched.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Now I want to dive in because I know you've definitely done your homework, the efficacy is there with the products.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Let's talk about the nasal, um, the nasal environment, the nasal barrier compared to something like the skin barrier.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like educate us a little bit on the actual like science of everything that you kind of had to do a deep dive yourself into to before you were uh formulating and creating the products.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: So we so I think when when I was uh kind of initially had this aha, um, you know, the short story was uh I was traveling, I used actually a nasal spray that was actually performed that was natural, and the IL was like a really beautiful IL, you know, as a product developer, we love these things, right?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So like I was like, oh my God, this reads like a P page.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, why or like a Sephora P page?
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, why don't I'm why does it read it looks like a face mist?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so I went, I started as going down this rabbit hole of like, why don't more allergy products get me this excited?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: And and so then it was like checking these boxes of like, is it regulatory, is it manufacturing, is it science?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is it what like what is it that's like holding people back from entering this category um and disrupting?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's no armor of of allergy, right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Or or you know, or groons of allergy, right?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um, so the science piece of it, that was actually inspired by a lot of the work uh we're seeing in skincare and gut actually around um microbiome, you know, seeing upstream around like more so moving from this idea of like respecting the microbiome, microbiome-friendly, which is great, actually formulations, to actually more like a precision microbiome approach.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So like utilizing specific, you know, five uh fibers or prebiotics or whatever it might be, uh, to uh uh and probiotics or postbiotics to specifically modulate the microbiome to uh to do things, right?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So to actually perform uh almost like an active ingredient uh to deliver benefits.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And like so, we're seeing it in skincare.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're seeing brands uh that specifically like lower the levels of staph aureus on the skin to treat eczema, right?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, or like gut gut products as well that treat kind of leaky gut or things like that.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was like, okay, well, would the same theory apply to the nasal passages, right?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so this then this started this whole like rabbit hole of like, okay, does the does the nasal passages have a microbiome?
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like what, like what is like what so turns out yes, they absolutely do.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then the nasal passage, and so the the cool thing is, in which I talked about cross-category before, is like all the same rules apply.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is actually the the literature, which is still, I have to say, I have to caveat this of which which is the really cool thing, is that like all this science is really still emerging because there hasn't been a ton dedicated to the nasal microbiome and and the science, it still is emerging within the allergy field, but it is actually credible and is coming, validated by some of our sources that you know from competitors.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: But uh essentially uh the literature shows that those with most likely with uh chronic rhinitis most often show a microbiome in dysbiosis, right?
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: So that they often show an overabundance of certain types of bacteria and fungi, um, that then when that microbiome is dysbiosis, it then shows a relative um uh weaker nasal barrier epithelial barrier, which is then uh allows essentially the same difference, allows more of those allergens, like sposomal, like pollutants, et cetera, to penetrate and kind of kick off that inflammatory response, which then you see that results in that kind of cascading effect, um, which is then what you know, all of the allergic responses that you see.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I then worked with a specific partner that only focuses on microbiome.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: We come through all of the literature, figured out this was not a week endeavor, this was a month's endeavor, um, uh, figured out what was actually credible, and then figured out actually what was the what were the materials used, uh, and then kind of pieced together what we felt like was our best chance at kind of doing what we wanted it to do, um, to achieve what we wanted, uh, and then moved into testing.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so did a essentially did a kind of a pre like a pre uh pre-clinical validation.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, myself, I participated as well, which was cool to see.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Essentially what we did was a 28-day test.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: We essentially using almost like COVID tests, like so swabbing the nasal passages, day zero, day three, day seven, day 14, day 21, day 28, and then using our products, um, the nasal spray, uh the nasal rinse, and the oral strips once once a day, tracking symptoms, and then actually tracking the composition of the nasal microbiome and kind of linking those causality up in terms of like symptom, you know, either hopefully reduction, but also like quality of life uh cues in terms of like sleep and mood and appearance, all those things as well over the 28 days, and then linking how the composition changed with those factors.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and what we found was that our what we call our nasal biome technology, but our blend of prebiotics and probiotics and postbiotics reduced staph aureus, which is the bacteria responsible, but then as well as specific type of fungus uh linked to, in the literature, linked to environmental allergens, environmental and household allergens, which amplifies the inflammatory response.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: So, and over the 28 days uh lowered both of those um and then linked to then improved quality of life.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: I had uh an overabundance of Staph aureus as well.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: So no surprise there.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it was cool to see at least in the pre-clinicals, and then we validated those in our in our full-scale clinical, which was on our 41-person um panel study uh that we ran.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it was cool to see.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: We were like um, I think one of the first to kind of validate that in like the nasal area, uh nasals areas that I've seen um in terms of like from a like nasal microbiome approach.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: I know that you know others have talked kind of microbiome we validate with a clinical um and but and still seeing some of this kind of precision microbiome emerge.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's more, you know, more work to do, but I think it's really, really cool to see, and then especially cool to see again the improvement in quality of life because in the 41-person panel study, it wasn't only like symptom reduction, it was improvement on sleep, uh, mood, uh energy, uh wanting to socialize, which is wild, um, irritability, uh, and then dark circle reduction at three weeks, puffy face, and then then the microbiome fully shifting by 28 days.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's really, really impressive.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the best part is that that's translational.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's really that's where I don't, you know, I got this like bone to pick, I feel like, with like everybody that does these like random studies, especially when you get into the other fields of like science, because we do so much, but then it's like, how does this translate to reality?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that is translational.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I mean, that's where I think it's a really, really important to understand because allergy and immunology, like just from my understanding, like it's an incredibly difficult field because there is like you were mentioning, like that the fungal, you know, like fungal organisms, for example, that's a chronic inflammatory response that your body is constantly dealing with.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you are able to like understand something like that, and then also like start creating solutions that are going to target all of the microorganisms that you're dealing with, you know.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, staph I think is a problem all over the body.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: But then that that really sparked my interest when you mentioned the fungal part because I mean, I think a lot of times, especially now, because everybody has dysbiosis going on, whether it's gut dysbiosis, whether it's in the nasal passages, it doesn't matter.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that kind of is where the gut starts too, right?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's an important thing, is like nasal then oral cavity.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: And um You know, you don't really talk about that is that it starts that early and then it sets the rest of the, you know, the rest of the string up.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so if this is not checked up or it's not in sync, the rest of your gut is not going to be either.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a huge cascade that's occurring.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and fungi are incredibly important in that, you know, because as I mean, you know this, but I'm just saying for our listeners, like, you know, it's in incredibly important because they eat dysregulate everything and they're chronic.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: They're chronic.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's wild.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's wild.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly, and it's like once you dive in, it's like it's so crazy.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's on like on two things.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like one, those results didn't happen on every four all 41 people.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because not all 41 people actually had a microbiome in dysbiosis, to be honest, which was like actually the cool thing.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: So the technology on the people that didn't, we just like supported their microbiome.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it was actually truly personalized in a way that's like, and which is why how I always envision personalized skincare.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: What because that to me it was like personalized skincare isn't like a drop of this and a drop of this, and you know, like da-da-da.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like the city, I mean, that was to me 1.0, like way back in the day.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, per to me, personalized skincare is actually like interacting with the body, of like, so and and and and to me, this is like the definition of working with the body, not against it, which is like it's adaptive the holy grail of so it literally is like figuring out and then working with it, which is like wild.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then yes, the ability to then specifically like solve for this, which is um, and then we do we do have a patent on uh this our microbiomodulation of uh of the nasal area utilize on the gut nasal delivery, so which is kind of cool.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: So to be able to kind of like uh with that two-pronged approach, because there's only so much surface area in the nasal cavity.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: So to touch.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we're using the gut too to kind of uh to to power that as well, to your point of of that gut nasal axis for sure.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then also like just to your point, um, you know, not only the surface area, but the the permeability is a huge thing, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's where I really want to kind of uh pick your brain a little bit there because how was that formulation um, you know, that journey for you in terms of like really kind of rethinking?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's such a different environment you're dealing with.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, skin is great, transdermal delivery is great, and that there's a lot of you know hurdles there, so we got to get more robust with things like encapsulation.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: But this is mucosa.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: So mucosa is like, let me, you know, let everything in, everything goes straight to the bloodstream, you know.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: So how is that?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, can I tell you?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, I'm like, you want a shampoo?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: I can get you a shampoo tomorrow.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you want like I'm like, oh, this was like again, this is one the most challenging thing I've ever done in my life, but that's that's the joy, right?
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: So, like uh it was a multi-step process, and it was like it was so like there was this whole all these like chicken egg moments because you couldn't pass go without doing a certain thing.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: So every every ingredient's been like screened for toxicity in the nasal mucosal area and for ingesting um given certain levels or told no.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: So because we're bringing in new ingredients into this, into uh into this category, right?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: So we were, you know, we had done research to show that we believed efficacy, um, and then validated with a toxicologist that we could we were able to use these ingredients because there's you know the FDA FDA excipient list, which is validated, um, and then we were bringing in additional ingredients to be able to utilize, uh validated with a toxicologist to be able to utilize um as well, and then um and then formulated uh formulated with.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of how we and then safety tested, of course, all the formulations um uh to validate.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other big challenge was preservatives.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was like the big um, you know, you're like building all this and then you like to tear it down with a preservative system that's gonna like you know kill everything is like not not not the smartest idea.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we so defined, I mean, God, I went through like 600 iterations to find a preservative system that was like, you know, still robust enough, but not uh was not did not irritate.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so uh we landed on actually on a really interesting preservative system um that's uh that's not air does not irritate, it's peptide-based that doesn't irritate but still um is robust and you know, of course passes PET, et cetera, and and is ingestible, et cetera.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: So anyway, so it's a combination of all these things, but a lot of a lot of steps and a much more extended development timeline as well.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can imagine.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's that's truly a feat.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I I mean I really c you know applaud you for that because I think that's that's the I think when it comes to innovation, like you can't skip steps.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, you know this better than I think anybody in the industry where it's like innovation, when I look at it, especially in beauty, I feel like sometimes we just sometimes you skip over things, you know, and you can't do that.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the human body has to be the human physiology and everything has to come forward, you know, it has to be the center focus.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so, especially with a category like this, I mean, you're you're redefining an entire category.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: So this is going to shift how everybody else in the allergy space thinks when they think about what product should we we be creating.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I remember back in the day when we were in, I was in medical school and they used to tell us horror stories of these like these drugs met for like you know, nasal sprays and they were causing like nasal polyps, and like there was like a huge, like so many problems, right?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure I mean anybody out there, if you've dealt with allergies, you've heard about this stuff.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's scary to think that people were so aggressive, you know, with the with the like the approach rather than thinking, what can the physiology actually handle?
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: And where is that breaking point?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, where is that point of biology where it's like don't push, you know, leave it alone.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I I mean, I guess like that is one of my questions, also is like when you were doing your homework about like I want to maintain my efficacy.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you just spoke about the preservative system, which I think that's brilliant because yeah, that's one of the biggest components.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: But then when you were thinking about how far can we really push biology, what were, I mean, were there some hurdles that you were like, God, I don't know.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what we're gonna do here to really, you know, optimize efficacy without compromising anything.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, any war, like war stories you can tell us about there, you know?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think, you know, one is like, you know, with this category, what all uh what, you know, because we talked to a lot of like I talked to a lot of like outside, like, you know, folks that are the kind of exposure to this category, et cetera.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the one thing that got like, you know, I was like punched in the face with was like you have to deliver immediate relief.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's how you if you can't, you're never gonna win because that's the you know, and that's how that's why natural brands fail, right?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because they don't, and that's you know, that's why because everybody, that's the the key hurdle, right?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of that is often delivered by actually like flavor, like some of like the you like a eucalyptus or that vapo cool or things like that, given immediate because some of that sensation of immediate clarity, right?
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And things like that.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so um we my god, we uh so for an instance, because we have our flavors, Arctic vanilla and botanical breeze, which are our nasal spray flavors inspired by lip care.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: So to make them like you know fun and and uh flavorful anyway.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: But uh so we so it originally in our in our sinus rinse, I had actually a flavor, I had the Arctic vanilla in because it was a nice, it added a nice, like for me.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like I've like, you know, I've not now by now tested all the products multiple times.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've put so much on my nose.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, who knows, you know, anyway.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd like testing all this stuff anyway.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm like, I love it because it's like gives me like breathing, you know, menthol.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: We did uh a 40 person like uh product validation study with the nasal rinse with our arctic vanilla in it.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was so polarizing.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Some people were like, This is the best thing I've ever done.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: Taste it, like this is amazing.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: Other people were like, my head is gonna explode.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: I like I hate like I I hate that, like like return this.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like we're like we're I'm sure they would like they would punch me in the face if they saw me, like after testing their product.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, so anyway, so like so needless to say, that that was a turning point where we where I was like, that was a bridge too far in in innovation.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: I was like scientist rinse in a general, I think is a lot, and then adding the flavor was you know, so so needless to say we launched with a a free and clear version, and so we will we will phase into that.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: But that I think that was a uh uh an example of trying to drive efficacy in a way that then I was like, okay, maybe this is this is uh lot.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so we pulled the we pulled the flavor out because I was like, I can't, you know, this is this is one maybe we'll have to take them along, or we need to rework how we formulated in in a way much more gentle way, modify the flavor, the fragrance oil, whatever it might be.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: So you're also dealing with that whole olfactory hypersensitivity, especially women.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, you know what Lord, I gotta tell you, for to this day, I can't eat anything that contains seafood because of that exact reason.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: I have the strongest, and I know people have said this to me before like when pe your uh your taste is so closely tied with your olfactory response that like anything you taste, you smell, and it's so strong.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I hear you when you say that because I'm like, yeah, for all us super sensitive people, I can see that.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, people coming at you like what are you doing to me?
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: What did you do?
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but that's cool.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I'm glad you I'm glad you pivoted though.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think that that would be that would be really, really interesting to see you come out with all the different flavors, but give us like us super sensitive people, give us the you know, bland version, I guess.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, no, that's really neat.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think that it's just such a fun, I think the brand is just so fun, and I think that's what I think draws people into actually wanting to take care of themselves.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: I said this before, but you know, my biggest my biggest questions, I think, for you is like if somebody is trying to disrupt a space, which you clearly are, this is going to absolutely be game-changing.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think everybody knows that at this point because the allergy aisles are just the most boring aisles, I think, in in a pharmacy.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I want to get your advice from a business perspective now for it, because we have a lot of people that tune in that are butting entrepreneurs or, you know, just they want they want to understand the uh the the business side, you know.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so in terms of disrupting a category, creating category-defining products, what are some, I think, take homes, take homes that you can give us, some words of wisdom you can give us about what it takes to shift your perspective and also build meaningfully in a new space.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I think um it is, I mean, one, the conviction of of believing in the idea um and seeing seeing the vision, you know, um, because that's gonna have to, you know, the you know, uh the other part you didn't see was like is the probably 700 investor meetings I've had along the way of of creating this, you know.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so blessed to have an amazing and uh amazing investors behind this veranda believed in it, but it took them seeing the vision, and I think that's so this conviction of like seeing seeing how this is gonna come to life uh from start to finish, I think that they they bought into that and saw it.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's that's the the first piece of it.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think really defining that white space of where you're gonna sit and really having a really, really clear understanding of your competitive set and and where you want to show up in retail.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we with when we were when I was devo developing this brand, I knew I knew this wasn't gonna sit in a in a Sephora at the end of the day.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: I knew this was gonna sit in, you know, we're launching in Walmart and in the dot com and next month and in the fall uh in brick and mortar.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew this was gonna sit in a map more mass environment because that's where allergies sell, you know.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So it had a clear envision of where this was gonna be.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I think having that like that understanding your competitive set and that that that vision of where it's gonna sit.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then uh and then I think the last is just like that um maintaining that like that creativity around like um what can be.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think not uh not feeling like you have to to either knock off or benchmark or do whatever the other competitors, I think that's where the ability to to disrupt can be really magical at the end of the day to to bring something new.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, we don't want to want to make another you know, beekeepers naturals or another clear or another, I don't know, flones.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: We wanted to make a wizard, right?
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so um that's what we did at the end of the day, and I think it's it's hopefully it shows, you know.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: I love it, I love it so much, and I I'm such a fan already, and I think anyone, all of our listeners, you guys gotta check out the brand.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: But Lauren, I honestly I can't wait to watch this blow up because I mean, honestly, it's it's a whole category redefined.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's I don't know what to say.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like that's huge.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's huge.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, hats off to you, you know.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: That takes a lot of courage, it takes a lot of um just hard work, and I can't think of a better person to do it.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I'm just so glad that you didn't create another beauty product that didn't, you know, wasn't going to be meaningful at the end of the day.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: I can't, I'm not, I swear I'm not throwing shade at anybody when I say this.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just being honest.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I swear if I see another redundant product, I'm gonna lose my mind.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm just so happy.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I'm so and I appreciate all the kind words.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's it's really well deserved.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I I can't wait for everybody, all of our listeners to discover the brand.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you did mention Walmart.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited that you're launching in Walmart.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Where can they discover the brand right now?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the website or what's the best way?
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, so we wizardwellness.com uh and then we're available on Amazon and TikTok shop.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's great.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you so much.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: This has been so lovely chatting with you again.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Ecta.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate it.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.