Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Chuckie Mauk: Boy killed on way home from candy store

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Chuckie Mauk: Boy killed on way home from candy store · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: That's blue Apron dot com slash Nancy Grace. Blue Apron
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  Speaker 1: a better way to cook. Climb stories with Nancy Grace
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  Speaker 1: on serious x M Triumph Channel one thirty two thirty
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  Speaker 1: years ago, Killer Rock the Warner Robins community after a
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  Speaker 1: thirteen year old boy was murdered. Chucky Mark's life is
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  Speaker 1: at just thirteen, but his case unsolved. He'd write his
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  Speaker 1: bike to a nearby convenience store all the time to
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  Speaker 1: buy candy. Someone heard a loud Paul when did I say?
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  Speaker 1: They saw him talking to someone in a light colored
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  Speaker 1: cough the vehicle speeding away. But who would shoot a
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  Speaker 1: thirteen year old boy? Who killed check him on? There
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  Speaker 1: is still no suspect. There are people in new community
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  Speaker 1: that when com at that time the mode what happened
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  Speaker 1: to trick him all? There was a knock at the door,
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  Speaker 1: and then nothing was ever the same. There was a
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  Speaker 1: knock at the war and then nothing was ever the same.
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  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and I want
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  Speaker 1: to thank you for being with us today. I am
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  Speaker 1: trying again with everything I note to use and do
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  Speaker 1: to solve a cold case. A cold case that means
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  Speaker 1: a great deal to me personally. Chucky Mark a little boy,
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  Speaker 1: a beautiful little boy. I always think of Chucky and
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  Speaker 1: his little league, his little league outfit. And when I
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  Speaker 1: say that, I think of him with the hat on
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  Speaker 1: and the golden brown hair coming out from under it,
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  Speaker 1: and the little jurors. He's so proud, so proud in
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  Speaker 1: that picture. I mean, you just a handsome little boy too.
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  Speaker 1: And it always, it gets blurred every time I think
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  Speaker 1: about Chucky blur in my son John David, and I
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  Speaker 1: think about him in his soccer uniform when he stands
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  Speaker 1: there for the picture and when he gets a trophy
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  Speaker 1: or those horrible little medals they hand out instead of
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  Speaker 1: trophies now and I have to think about how the
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  Speaker 1: last nine years have been the happiest years of my
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  Speaker 1: life because of him and Lucy, And then Chucky comes
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  Speaker 1: back into my mind's I you hear somebody in the background.
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  Speaker 1: That's Chucky's mom. It's Kathy Miller. Kathy, I almost stopped
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  Speaker 1: the call calling you to join me today, because you know,
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  Speaker 1: sometimes for me anyway, it's easier for me to get
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  Speaker 1: through the day without thinking about violent crime, without thinking
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  Speaker 1: about the moment Keith was murdered, not wondering what was
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  Speaker 1: the last thing he saw? Did he think about me?
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  Speaker 1: Why wasn't I there? Did he suffer? Was he knocked
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  Speaker 1: out immediately? What what happened? What did he go through?
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  Speaker 1: Why did this happen? It's just easier to wake up
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  Speaker 1: in the morning, have a cup of tea, and get busy,
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  Speaker 1: because you know, I understand that, Nancy, I understand that feeling.
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  Speaker 1: Why is that? I don't know, but you know you
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  Speaker 1: I wish I could go a day, you know, pretending
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  Speaker 1: that it it didn't happen. But I lived with this
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  Speaker 1: empty hole in my heart every day, and to not
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  Speaker 1: talk about it is just to not to be who
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  Speaker 1: I am because I live with that every day. I
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  Speaker 1: live with it every day that he's gone that I
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  Speaker 1: don't I think the same thing as you. You know,
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  Speaker 1: why wasn't I there? Was he scared? Did he need me?
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  Speaker 1: And I'm his mother and I couldn't protect him? You know,
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  Speaker 1: you watch your children all their lives, you know, to
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  Speaker 1: try to keep them safe and just a moment in
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  Speaker 1: time he left me and I wasn't there. I guess
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  Speaker 1: I don't pretend it didn't happen. I just um, I
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  Speaker 1: don't want to think about it because it's so painful.
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  Speaker 1: It's just it's so painful. You just don't want that
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  Speaker 1: pain to kind of enter your day or to start
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  Speaker 1: your day. But it's there. You know, no matter what
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  Speaker 1: we do to think that it wasn't it, It's there.
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  Speaker 1: It's always underlying it. You know. It's that current, that
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  Speaker 1: low current in our lives that I really I don't
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  Speaker 1: hate it that much, but I do hate is that people.
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  Speaker 1: I like, if you're connected to a murder, if somebody
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  Speaker 1: in your family or your friend was murdered, then you're
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  Speaker 1: somehow I don't know, Let's see, how can I put
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  Speaker 1: look at you different? You're kind of trashy person. You're like,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know that. People don't get happens to everybody.
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  Speaker 1: I think they do. You know, no one's ever understood
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  Speaker 1: that about that, that people look at you different. They
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  Speaker 1: will treat you different. As soon as they you say
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  Speaker 1: your child was murdered, It's like, oh, yeah, I guess
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  Speaker 1: I can know what he was doing. You know, if
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  Speaker 1: he becomes a victim again and he didn't do anything wrong. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: just let's put it out there. At the very beginning,
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  Speaker 1: Chuck him mom was a little boy. He asked his
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  Speaker 1: mom if he could you know what? Why am I
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  Speaker 1: telling it? I've got his mother with me, Kathy, Kathy
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  Speaker 1: Miller is joining me. Why I'm now considered to be
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  Speaker 1: a friend. And we're going to get into how I
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  Speaker 1: met Kathy, which is the craziest thing. How we ever
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  Speaker 1: got connected is fortuitous. It was meant to be. But
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  Speaker 1: I want to go back to that day, the day
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  Speaker 1: eight pm, to just just start with that day, Cathy. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: it was Memorial Day and um Chucky would always go
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  Speaker 1: to this little market, a little grocery store just around
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  Speaker 1: the corner from our house and buy candy for school
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  Speaker 1: the next day. And he asked me if he could go.
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  Speaker 1: He was just going to be gone a second, and
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  Speaker 1: he went to the store to buy candy around the corner.
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  Speaker 1: It's literally around the corner, around the corner. I mean, yes,
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  Speaker 1: it's just like not even as a blot, baby, And
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  Speaker 1: as the crow flies, it is probably not even a blot,
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  Speaker 1: because this is how it is. Okay, there's the street,
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  Speaker 1: there's a more of a main thoroughfare where the closer
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  Speaker 1: to where the story is. Then you pull off and
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  Speaker 1: you go into a residential suburb and it's tree line
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  Speaker 1: and it's nice and there's no crime there. It's just
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  Speaker 1: a regular American suburban neighborhood. You would it's pretty. People
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  Speaker 1: are at the alley. Yeah, yeah, around the corner. It's
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  Speaker 1: just like a little dream of what America suburban life
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  Speaker 1: would be. And what he would do is get on
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  Speaker 1: his bike and cut through the neighborhood and go up
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  Speaker 1: to the main street, which was not like some busy
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  Speaker 1: eight line. It just happened to be where a little
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  Speaker 1: convenience store thing was. And I mean people don't get
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  Speaker 1: it in that part of the country. I remember we
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  Speaker 1: were little. Oh, my mother would have had a heart
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  Speaker 1: attack because for us to go get gum or candy,
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  Speaker 1: we would have to get on our bikes and ride
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  Speaker 1: our bikes for like I don't know, minutes through woods
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  Speaker 1: and dirt roads, and then we come up behind what
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  Speaker 1: was called the pep station, right and all we could
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  Speaker 1: get there was like gum or a couple of runs
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  Speaker 1: and then we'll get on our bikes and drive all
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  Speaker 1: the way back home. You know, really, you know, it's
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  Speaker 1: just a small little country, you know, a little southern town,
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  Speaker 1: and that's just what the kids do. So that night,
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  Speaker 1: where were you described at home? Yeah, okay, we just
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  Speaker 1: finished supper and the knock came on the you know,
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  Speaker 1: to my door. But when they left, when he left,
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  Speaker 1: you were washing the dishes, and you had your back
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  Speaker 1: turned and went straight back. What happened? I just, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I didn't even look at him, because it wasn't unusual
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  Speaker 1: for Chucky was always in and out the house, you know,
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  Speaker 1: with all the kids. And he just said, momm gonna
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  Speaker 1: run to the store and get some candy for school.
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  Speaker 1: And I said, you know, come back, you know, don't
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  Speaker 1: be gone long, and he said I want, and you know,
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  Speaker 1: out the door in two seconds. And I didn't look
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  Speaker 1: at him before he left. He just was out the door.
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  Speaker 1: You know, it's funny that you remember that. Funny odd
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  Speaker 1: because I remember the last time I saw Keith and
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  Speaker 1: he his family lived in Athens and he was working
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  Speaker 1: over the summer and he would come down to visit
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  Speaker 1: me and my family and make him and he had
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  Speaker 1: come for the weekend and stayed the weekend and set
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  Speaker 1: Sunday night. Oh I didn't want him to go back,
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  Speaker 1: and so he said, okay, I'll stay. So he stayed
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  Speaker 1: Sunday night, and we got up super early Monday morning
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  Speaker 1: to drive I guess like two hours back, and I
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  Speaker 1: remember standing outside it was chilly because it was so
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  Speaker 1: early in the morning, and he went down the driveway
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  Speaker 1: turned right and drove off to the horn and stuck
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  Speaker 1: his hand up his arm above the window to wave
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  Speaker 1: over the And I remember that moment like right now,
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  Speaker 1: like it just happened yesterday. It's funny how that works.
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  Speaker 1: It's just as clear. It's just so clear. And you
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  Speaker 1: know how many times do we play that in your mind?
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  Speaker 1: You know? And I remember thinking as he went out
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  Speaker 1: of side, um, there's a superstition that says, don't watch
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  Speaker 1: the person until they're out of sight because it's bad luck.
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  Speaker 1: And I remember just before his car went out of side,
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  Speaker 1: I kept waving, but I closed my eyes because I
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  Speaker 1: didn't want to wash any bad luck. Okay, I remember
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  Speaker 1: that yesterday, So you go, sure, go Okay, Then what happened?
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  Speaker 1: So you're washing dishes. I'm washing dishes and then there's
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  Speaker 1: a knock at the door and I go to answer it,
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  Speaker 1: and it's one of his little friends that lives down
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  Speaker 1: the street, and she said, I see Chucky. And I
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  Speaker 1: looked like he's fallen off his bike and hurt himself.
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  Speaker 1: You know what I'm thinking, Oh, no, he's you know,
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  Speaker 1: he's broke his arm, he's broke his leg. So me
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  Speaker 1: and my husband and we grab our other child, Greg,
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  Speaker 1: who's like in the first second grade at that time,
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  Speaker 1: and we just run down, you know, to to see Chucky.
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  Speaker 1: And as we're running, I see that it is so
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  Speaker 1: much more than that, you know, and it's just then
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  Speaker 1: it's just it's like slow motion. It's I don't like,
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  Speaker 1: my feet are made of let and I just can't
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  Speaker 1: get there, you know, I'm just it's just I can't
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  Speaker 1: hardly explain how I was feeling. I just knew, I knew.
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  Speaker 1: And then that's when we find him and he's laying
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  Speaker 1: there and they think at first that he is a
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  Speaker 1: hit and run and um, they roll him over and
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  Speaker 1: the bullet went through the back of his neck and
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  Speaker 1: came out in his face, and he's dead. O. And
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  Speaker 1: that was the moment that I kind of went away
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  Speaker 1: and everything changed my whole life. And that's the last
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  Speaker 1: time I saw it. Dear you say that moment when
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  Speaker 1: you saw he had fallen off his bike, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I thought I would find him sit there, you know,
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  Speaker 1: just with his arm or his leg broke. You know
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  Speaker 1: what I'm thinking, Oh my god, that's the worst thing.
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  Speaker 1: And it is so not even that when you saw him,
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  Speaker 1: what did you see exactly. You know, my mind sort
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  Speaker 1: of won't let me think about what I saw. I
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  Speaker 1: know that sounds crazy, but it it just I get
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  Speaker 1: there and it kind of flashes away. I just saw
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  Speaker 1: so much blood because it's on here was all read
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  Speaker 1: from from the blood and everyone. My husband grabbed me
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  Speaker 1: and kind of took me to dispense for I wouldn't
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  Speaker 1: see anything, and the police were there by that time,
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  Speaker 1: and they didn't want me near anything to this, um
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  Speaker 1: disturb the scene. And by that then there's just this
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  Speaker 1: huge crowd and I'm just like hysterical. I'm just hysterical,
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  Speaker 1: and they're trying to get people to calm me down,
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  Speaker 1: and um, it's just something like you see in the movies.
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  Speaker 1: It's just like you see in the movies. I'm just
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  Speaker 1: hysterical and I can't get to him and I can't
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  Speaker 1: help him. And you know, I just when you said
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  Speaker 1: you that moment, you rarely think of it. Mm hmm.
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  Speaker 1: I remember that. When I went to Keith's funeral, I
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  Speaker 1: just couldn't stay in the thought of seeing him in
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  Speaker 1: the casket. And I walked to and the overwhelming smell
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  Speaker 1: of carnations, which to this day makes me sick. I
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  Speaker 1: can't stand it. I almost feeling just talking about it.
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  Speaker 1: It's almost like when you smell a lot of gas
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: fumes at the gas station. The thought of smelling those
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  Speaker 1: carnations just oh oh, the flora flora, Oh oh. I
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: never go with a floris. I can't stand that smell.
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  Speaker 1: I can't either. But neither went in and I remember
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  Speaker 1: I just instinctively glanced into some kind of anti room.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: I glanced off to the right and I saw his
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  Speaker 1: casket and I saw just above the edge, the top
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  Speaker 1: of his profile, and I passed out. I passed out.
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  Speaker 1: And oh, I just know, you can't really even remember
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  Speaker 1: past that, he said, all of a sudden, it was
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  Speaker 1: we were out at the we were at the funeral,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: and that's you know. And I can remember the pastor
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  Speaker 1: God help him, Port kept calling me Mary, and yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I don't I don't really care. It's okay, I get it.
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  Speaker 1: But I just remember that, and it was so unreal.
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  Speaker 1: And I've told you this before, off Mike, that for
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: about a year or two before case murder, and I
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: don't know how long after his murder, I have a
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: huge chunks of time I can't remember. People will come
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  Speaker 1: up and go Hey, do you remember something. I'm like, no,
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  Speaker 1: I don't remember. Tell me, tell me what happened. I've
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: done the same thing that's happened to me too. And
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  Speaker 1: when at Chucky's funeral, my husband and UM, they decided,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: you know, to have a close casket because they didn't
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: want me to. They just, you know, they just couldn't
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  Speaker 1: make Chucky look like Chucky used to and UM, so
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  Speaker 1: it was closed and we just had his picture on
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  Speaker 1: the on the coffin and that was it, you know what.
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  Speaker 1: I'm him again, trying to not that it matters, but
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out what is the worst thing. Is
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: the worst thing when you find out the person is gone,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: or that horrible time after where you're practically disabled and
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do, Like those days and those
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: nights and those hours that turn into weeks that turn
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: into months and you're just comple neatly disabled with pain
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: and there's nothing nobody can help you. You can't get
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: away from it. You wake up in the morning and
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: for just about maybe two seconds you it seems normal,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: and then you remember and there's no way around it.
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  Speaker 1: No pill, no short no there's no shortcup, no pill,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: no medicine, no shrink, no nothing. It's no person, no words,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: no person, no nothing. You are engulfed and wrapped around
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: and cocoons and a pain that is indescribable, and there's you,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: wake up you. Every breath is so hard. I just
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: wanted to die. I just wanted to die. I'm just
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: imagining you in that heat and you've dragged your a
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: little child along behind you running and then everybody is
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: around Chucky and you're kind of off to the side
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: by that fence. What in the world was happening in
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: your mind? But then there's the funeral. When when did
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: you realize Chucky was not hit by a car. Chucky
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: didn't fall off his bike, he didn't hit his head.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Somebody shot him. Somebody shot him and killed your child,
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: and in broad daylight, at close range. I mean, you know,
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: people were saying, well, maybe a stray bullet. Will know
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: it wasn't a stray bullet. Somebody put a gun to
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: the back of his head and shot him. And that
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: is the fact. That is the only thing that truly
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: I know, and I just you know, as soon as
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: we went back to the house, after we left the scene,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: you know, and all the police and the sheriff, and
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: you know, everyone's just bombarding you with you know, questions,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: you know, and I'm I'm just trying to say he
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: he was shot, you know. I'm just I can't even
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: go there. It's just I can't go there. It was
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: just so overwhelming. I can't even hardly put into words
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: how overwhelmed all of this is at that moment in time.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: And then I just like my hands starts shaking, and
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: then my legs start shaking, and my whole body shaking,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: and then I start going into shock, and so I
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: have to take me to the emergency room, and I
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's just this nightmare of things
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: that are happening, and so much is happening in that
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: short period of time, like from eight to midnight. With me,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: it's just trying to know that he's not coming back,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: and somebody killed him. Somebody wanted him dead, and I
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: can't fathom it. Who would want him dead? I can
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: just trying to get this picture in my head. At
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: a distance, Cathy sees her son sprawled on the pavement
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  Speaker 1: of a convenient store parking lot, bleeding near his bike.
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  Speaker 1: They shot him while he's still on his bike, or
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: standing beside his bike, and in his life and in
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: his little hand was still a pack of bubble gum,
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: a pack of bubble gum. So he had made it
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  Speaker 1: into the store, just like he told mommy. He got
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: his little bubble gum and somebody gunned this little boy down.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Now what do we know? What have you been told, Cathy?
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: What have you learned about a potential suspect? What I know?
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: If he was seen talking two someone in a light
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: colored car, and that's all I know, had to be
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: in in Okay, So it's a man. Had to you
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: had to be a man. And there are ages. I
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: don't know. Um I thought there, I thought it was
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: narrowed down to a white male. Well, yeah, a white
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: male both likely to the driver and a passenger is
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: from what I know, um kind of acne scarred space rough,
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: a rough looking you know, dark hair, hite hair, wasn't
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: it dark hair? Light hair? Okay, I think light hair
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: was the passenger. I'm not sure about the driver. So
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: the guy with light hair, a white male with light
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: colored hair, is he the one that had the acne scars? Yes? Yes,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Well somebody had to get fairly close to him to
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: know he had acne scar ours. Yeah, I mean, at
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: least at the moment, I'm not sure how they got
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: that and how they got that, I'm not sure. And
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: any any remote idea on a making model. No, just
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: light color, you know, is all I've saint Kathy about
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: a potential motive. I've always thought somebody tried to lure
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: him in the car and he wouldn't get in, and
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: they shot him, because he never got in anybody's car. No, no,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: And he wasn't you know, he didn't hang out with
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: any bad kids, you know, he was he was like
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: into the sports, and you know, he was very well
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: like you know, so he never had arguments with anyone
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: that I know of, Kathy, you know what you're doing
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: about you, You know what you're doing right now. You're
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: defending him to me. You are defending him to me
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: like you're telling me he didn't do anything wrong. This
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: wasn't his fault. Hey, you don't have to do that
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: to me. But as long as it was the subject,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: this boy, this little boy, had never been in a
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: day's trouble in his life. He made good grades. He
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: was the star of the little league game, the little
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: league team. He practiced all the time. He never missed
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: a game. That was his world, that was as it
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: should be, was mommy, his little brother coming home, playing
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: little bicycle, his bicycle. Oh, he loved the bicycle. That
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: was his world. And it's not today. What it's funny
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: that you say that about defending him, and I do that, Nancy.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: It's almost everyone I speak to, and I, after all
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: these years, I still do that, is it? I don't
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: know why I do that, because you know what, you
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: know what people I don't know why people wrote this.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: And it was out there on the internet that Keith
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: was at a liquor store and got gunned down. And
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: then somebody else wrote that Keith was a cop, and
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: then somebody else wrote that I made the whole thing
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: up that I don't even know. Uh, just see, I
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: don't even know what all they've written does horrible, horrible things.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I don't even know why. So, you know what, it's
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: maybe you're not so far off the mark by feeling
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: like you have to be defensive because people will say
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: or think, now, wait a minute, wasn't there some incident
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: you talk? Oh, by the way, I recall um people
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: witnesses were questioned and it is believed the part was
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: driving a white old mobile, cutlass or buick. Right, Yes,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: I forgot that. You're right? Okay, the mate you know,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: let me ask you this. What could tell me about
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: the incident where a woman walked up to you weren't
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: you trying on clothes or weren't you in a store?
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: And made comments to you about Chucky's death? Oh it
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: was I worked in Yes, yes, yes, you know? Okay, okay,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: I you know what? You know what? I just can
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: gotten crossed in my head. Someone who came up to
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: Sharon Roacha, who is Lacy Lacy Peterson's mom. At some
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: she was trying to get an outfit and someone came
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: up to her to store and started asking her all
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: these questions about Lacey's death. And you know, people don't
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: get it. I mean when you can be having a
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: perfectly fine day and suddenly somebody asked you about the murder,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: and it's like getting cold water thrown on your face,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: and it can just throw me into a depression. It
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: makes me days to get out of it. I can't
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: afford to do that anymore. With having two children. They
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: don't need it to press mommy. They need a mommy
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: who was upbeat and ready to roll with them, not
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: somebody you know, disabled with Uh. So that's what kind
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: in my head. Now what happened? This was you weren't
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: at a doctor's office. What happened? And um, the doctor
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: had sent me a patient. I would pre up patients
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: for surgery, kind of go over everything with them. And
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: she saw Chucky's picture on my desk, and you know,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: she said, oh, are you Chucks mother? And I went yes,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: And you know, she kind of looked at his picture
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: and she knew the history that he was murdered. And
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: she told me, she says, you know, sometimes when parents
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: don't take care of their children, God calls them home. Well,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: she hit something so deep inside of me that I
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: had felt, you know, like I wasn't a good mother.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I let him go. I gave him permission to go,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: you know, and it just resignated to me. I just
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: had a step out of the room. I went to
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: my doctor and I was hysterical. It I was just
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: shyster I was hysterical, hysterical. Okay, you are just making
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: me tell my story more than your story. But I
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: have to tell you what happened. Okay, So this is
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: years after Keith Smarter. Okay, I was living this what
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: han't okay? So I finished underground, I went to law school,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: got my law degree, started prosecuting um. After ten years,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: my elected d A retired and I originally turned down
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: an offered to go to court TV in New York.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I called him back and went, hey, I have a job.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: Here I go. I'm on my way and U. I
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: had come home for a weekend to Atlanta, and still
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: at this time, even if to all these years, I
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: would hardly ever go out. I just the sight and
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: the sounds of everybody having a good time. I don't know,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: just rubbed me the wrong way after case murder. It
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: just didn't seem right to me. I know that's abnormal,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: but just the way it was is U. And so
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: my now husband UH and my girlfriend who was defense
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: is a defense lawyer in town um Renee. The three
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: of us went out after my show at night to
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: go get dinner. It was late, It's like nine thirty
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: or ten o'clock at night. Ex that's what time I
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: would get off work. And we went to this hole
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: in the wall that had Cajun food. And I'm sitting
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: there and I the blue. This has gotta be Twenty
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: fifteen years later, some guy walked up to me and said,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: I was one of case good friends, and I can't
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: believe you're out with a guy having a good time.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, right now, Kathy the studio with me, and
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: my mouth is fellow. But I'm like, I didn't even
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: know what to say. Did you feel like you've just
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: been hit? And yes, I feel it right now. I
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: feel like face and to my to save my neck. Well,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: of course it thrown me into a depression, which resignated,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: like that's true. He's right. And you know, lived alone
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: in New York and I would come home from work
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: at night and just sit there in this quiet apartment
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: and just it was like a palpable, tangible presence in
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: the room, that overwhelming grief. And I don't know the
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: guy's name. If he bit me in the neck right now,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't know him. But I remember that moment and
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: it was awful, awful. What is wrong with people back?
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. I don't, I don't know,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: but it puts it takes you back. I mean, what
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: do you say to that you've done? I couldn't say.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: I just I didn't either. I didn't say anything. Nobody
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: believes it. I just was so I know me too.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: They said, why didn't you? I said I. I was
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: punched in this. I couldn't speak because she hit on
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: something way deep down inside of me that I believe too,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: you know. And I was crushed. I was crushed in
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: it that a little bit of recovery I had made
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: put me way back, you know, and like I was
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: starting all over again. And it was so hurtful. But
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: people say hurtful things to you, but you were because
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: get some bubble gum to night time and you let
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: him go. Okay, So the other day, but see what
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: people don't get in the summertime in the south eight
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: o'clock it's just like noon outside. Um. Yeah. And it
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: wasn't something new that he did, you know, It wasn't
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: you know. The other day, Kathy, I was and where
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: was I was? In cost code okay, because the children
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: like a particular type a fish filet okay. So I
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: went in there trying not to get the free samples
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: because they're really anyway. So I go straight and I
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: left them in the car with my mother, okay, And
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: she is about eighties six, and she was nodding off
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: when I got out of the car, and they were
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: on their iPads looking up. Can't playing candy crush or something.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: And it hit me while I was in there in
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: the frozen food section. What if somebody grabs that car
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: and takes off. My mother couldn't fight them off. And
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: here I am in here in the fish division. I
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: almost ran out of Costco. I mean, there's no running
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: out because you have to show your car and this
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: and that, blah blah, And I thought I would jump
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: out of my skin before I could get When I
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: got into that parking lot, I had put all you know,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: they don't give you a bag, so you have to
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: put everything in the box. I was trotting, if you
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: can see, with this big box in my arms, running
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: across the parking lot to get to the car. I mean,
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: it never goes away. This was just last week. This
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: was last week that I thought somebody would get the
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: twins and hurt down. Yeah, because you know what can happen.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, we have experienced that. We know it can happen.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: It's not a story someone tells us. And I believe
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: that's why we have this tangible fear with us that
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: it can happen again. You know it can happen again.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna put out the tip line again. Four seven
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: eight five four two to zero eight five four seven
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: eight five four two two zero eight five or four
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: seven eight five four two to zero eight zero marks
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: the anniversary of the Summer of Sam. To mark the occasion,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Pocketbooks is proud to release a special anniversary edition E
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: book of Son of Sam by Lawrence D. Klausner. This
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: is an incredible story of how a single man, David Berkowitz,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: dubbed Son of Sam, the demon haunted forty four caliber killer,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: killed six, wounded several others, and terrorized millions of New
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Yorkers over eight known attacks from July nine through August
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: ninety seven. It's also the story of the greatest man
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: hunt in the history of the New York Police Department,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: the intimate narrative of the men assigned to tracking down
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: a lone killer. The police task force investigated more than
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: three thousand suspects, some of them cops, before finally making
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: an arrest. In the meantime, politicians watched a city writhe
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: and panic newspapers played upon the fears of their read
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: and the criminal justice system showed itself incapable of coping
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: with the man who committed such horrendous crimes. Download Summer
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: of Sam by Lawrence de Closter Today, royalty turned from
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: the cell of this book will be shared between the victims,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: where their families and the author. Chucky Mock was murdered.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: This beautiful little boy on his bicycle was murdered many,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: many years ago. What was the year, Kathy Man? Thirty
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: one years ago? He would be forty five. He just
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: had his birthday. That almost when he said he just
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: had his birthday, that almost my stomach did a flip
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: because the twins birthday is in November, and we were
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: just talking about what are we going to do for
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: your birthday? What are we gonna do it? Because we
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: talked about it all year after, you know, about two
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: weeks after their birthday, okay, maybe two days after the
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: birthday party, we start talking about what are we gonna
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: do next year? We're gonna have for your birthday next year?
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: And you said, he just had his birthday, you know,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, you know, what would he be now
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: and what would he be doing? And you know, I'd
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: probably have grandchildren, and you know, but he's only thirteen
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: to me. And I know what I wanted to ask you, Nancy,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: how do you what? I guess you know, after all
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: this time and his murder is not solved, and what
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: if it isn't solved? I mean, do I what do
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: I do? Do I let it go? Or do I
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: keep trying to put his story out all the time?
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, what do I do? Do I let it go?
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Or you know what? Trying to figure out I'm supposed
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: to be the expert and know the answer. I'm like, oh, Lord,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: what what? What's the right answer for what she just
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: asked me? And I think I know the answer. I
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: think I do have the answer, because I vacillate, like
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: for today, I almost didn't want to even call you
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: and bring the whole thing up again. But I want
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: the answer. I want the truth about Chucky. And I
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: think that everybody go ahead and mock me if you
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: want to. I really think that the Lord will provide
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: what you need and what we'll get you through the day.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: For instance, I've been so excited about our serious radio show,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: you know, and I thought, oh, I want to talk
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: about Chucky, Mark. I want to do this again. I
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: want the story out there, I want the tip line
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: out there. I want Cathy with me. And I remember,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: after talking about Chucky on Dr oz Or Wendy Williams,
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Fate has a funny way. It's not Fate, it's it's
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: it's the Lord has a funny way of working. Right.
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: So it's in that vein, you know, as I always say,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: when you don't know a horse, look at his track record.
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: If you don't know what's going to happen, look at
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: what has happened, because that's a blueprint. Please explain how
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: you and I got connected? Wow? Well, like I said,
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: I worked in this doctor's office and it was round
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Thanksgiving and I was talking to some of my friends saying,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: you know, I need I have to I don't know
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: what to do anymore about Chucky. I need to get
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: his story out. If only I could get in touch
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: with Nancy Gray your name, I just have this always.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: I've got to get in touch with you. But I
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: don't know how to get in touch with her. And
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: we had um, a drug wrap that came to see
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: us all the time. I loved him so much, and he,
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: you know, he'd stop and talk to me and you know.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: I asked him what he was gonna do for the
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: holidays and everything, and he says, well, I'm going to
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: go to New York to see my sister. And I said, well,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: you know I was your sister and he said, Nancy Grace.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: I thought, I can't, I can't breathe. And I said,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: do you have a moment. I've got to tell you
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: my story? And I told him the story of Chucky
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: and he said, you get me everything you have and
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: I'm taking it to Nancy. And I you know, I thought, God,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: you've answered a prayer. I've finally, you know, you have
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: answered one of my prayers. I'm gonna be able to
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: talk to her. She's going to help me. She is
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: going to help me. And sure enough you called me,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: and Thanksgiving you called me and you said you were
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: going to help me. And then you have my people
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: no matter where I am, and I thank God for it.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Tell you the truth. People ask me, does it ever
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: bother you? People are coming up to you asking for
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: help and wanting this and that, and I'm like, no, no,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: I welcome in. I want to hear their stories. And
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: I remember, I remembered the moment my brother called me.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: I was coming up. I had done Larry King that night.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: I had worked all day, stayed at Court TV, and
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: gone and done Larry No, how did it go? Then
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: I went and did h Lynn across town and I
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: had done Larry King, which was a real blessing to me.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: And I was on the way home and Matt, my brother,
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Matt Mackie as I call him. I saw his number
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: pop up and answer the phone and he started talking
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: and I'm like, Okay, here's the story, and here's another
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: story and someone he wants me to do something? What
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: is it? What can I do? And I was listening
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: and he kept talking and talking and I never said
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: a word. And all of a sudden, I come all
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: the way across town and was at my stop and
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: we were still talking about Chucky and you, and I'm like,
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: don't say another word. I'm on it. And I hung
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: the phone up and I immediately it is late by
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: then called my producer, executive producer Dean. I'm like, we
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: gotta do this, we got to do this. And that
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: was it. Yeah, you did it, like right away. I
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: just knew in my soul that if I could get
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: if there's somehow I could get in touch with you,
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: you would know my story. You would listen, and of
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: all these years that no one has ever helped me,
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: you would. I always believe it. I know you're not
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: gonna believe this, Kathy, but I figured something out. And
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: you know what it took for me to figure it out.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: Many many years I was writing my book Eleventh Victim,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: and the heroine and eleventh victim is Haley Dean. She's
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: a much better person than me. Let me tell you
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: that right now. But she loves to solve crimes and
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: she loves to win cases, put the bad guy away
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: because Hally not me, of course. Somehow, you know, every
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: time she puts a band aid on somebody else, it's
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: like putting a band aid on her. I mean, I
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: get so much joy. I guess is the only word.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: I know. It's not really joy. But I'm getting to
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: talk to you and talk about Chucky and putting it
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: out there again. It just feels like somehow we're putting
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: it out in the universe, and that's somehow, some way,
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: somebody knows something and somebody is going to come forward. Everybody.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: If you can hear our voices, please go to crime
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: online dot com I wrote a story a while back
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: about Chucky. Alan is going to join me with the
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: story of his own own. And you'll see his picture,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: and you will see and meet Kathy Miller. Kathy, my
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: brother told me a story that you told him. And
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: this is how it goes. You finally moved out of
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: that house, and you were in your new house and
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: you we're putting all the furniture in, and you were
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: putting up pictures, that's what you were doing. And you
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: put up the pictures of Chucky. And I am with you.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: I have um out, I have out all my letters
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: from Keith, I have his baseball m and I can
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: walk by and touch him whenever I want to. You
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: were putting up Chucky's pictures, so you got them all up.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: You walk tie the room, you hadn't been out of
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: the room ten minutes, and all of a sudden, crash,
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: you go back in. All the pictures, not one the
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: pictures of Chucky had all crashed to the floor. And
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: your son has said he saw Chucky run through the house. Mhm.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: I know it sounds crazy, but that's so true. I mean,
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: stranger than usual happenings, that is so true. I mean
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: and it is with me. Tell me that part. Please
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: tell me that part. I want to hear that so
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: much that he's he's with me. He every picture just fell,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I mean all at the same time, not one at
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: a time, they were all all at the same time,
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: just fell. And Greg just said, Mama, up, just ran
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: through here. He just went down the hall and he's
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: so he's with me here, he's with me. And that's
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: just that really happened. You know, you asked me if
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: should we just let it go. I don't know. I
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: don't know how to let things go. I'm sure I
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: don't probably tell you to let it go, but I
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: don't know how to do that. And it's like, if
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: I let it go, then what kind of mama am I?
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: You know, we know the answers our children. We were
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: there when we gave birth to them, we were there
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: when they're hurt, were there and they're good times. Well
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: I wasn't there when he died. And if I leave him,
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: I leave him. Well there's your answer right there. You
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: can't let go of this any more than you can
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: forget it. You can't let go. People always say, you know,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: how why are you still doing this? You know you
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: gotta let it go. Well, if they would tell me
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: how to let how do you let your child go?
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: You know, you pick a child and you let them go.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: You know, you pick your child. Which one would you
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: pick if you let them go? And you're right? Said,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: is my answer. I'll never let it go. I'm his
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: mother and I need to know how my child died
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: and why. I know everything else. I just gotta know
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: why him and why he died and if he was scared,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: you know, and was the last thing he thought. Maybe
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: I need my mama because that little boys I always
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: need their mom I Nancy Grayson with me is Kathy Miller.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: This is crying story, signing off goodbye friend,