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THE CREATOR BILL OF RIGHTS · The Media Odyssey

• Evan Shapiro: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Media Odyssey podcast. That is Marion Ranchet. Marion Ranchet: And that is Evan Shapiro. Evan Shapiro: Great to see you again, Marion. And we've got a really special episode of Media Odyssey Podcast. An old friend of mine and one of the big brains of the Creator economy, Shira Lazar, is here to talk about Creators for Mental Health. Marion, you've met Shira. You've talked to Shira, but you didn't really know her before. You know the last number of months, right? Marion Ranchet: No, unfortunately, I have to say I did not know her and that I know her thanks to you, and I don't like that. I wanna know people without you interfering. It's because of you that I met her. Evan Shapiro: She's a good one. I do know good people. Yes. Marion Ranchet: I have to give you credit. It hurts, [00:01:00] it pains me. But yes, we met at MIPCOM. You put a dinner together. And that was amazing. And I've followed her ever since. I know she was at the 1 billion summit in Dubai, a couple of days ago. So very exciting to have her on. Evan Shapiro: Like us, she's a creator. She's a small business owner. She's been out here on her own really hustling just like you and I are. So I think there's a lot for us to cover, including the stresses that being a creator in this economy puts on your brain, your heart, your health, all of those things. So without further ado, let's bring our friend, Shira Lazar, founder of What's Trending, to this stage. Just for those who don't know you, Shira, tell us your origin story and how you came to found what's trending now. A long time ago, I don't even know. We've known each other almost 20 years. But you founded what's trending and you got into the creator space before anybody called it the creator space. So how did you do that? Where did you come from? What is What's Trending and how did you make this all happen? Shira Lazar: Yeah, so What's Trending in 2026 is [00:02:00] a digital media brand and publisher that covers what's trending. News, views, culture for the social generation. But of course, we are very early to covering internet culture and creators before it was a thing when What's Trending started in 2011 I had come from being the first vlogger blogger at CBS News, creating the beat, covering again, viral video stars before it was cool to cover them. My background is in broadcasting though. I wanted to be like the Ryan Seacrest for this generation, but I was having trouble finding my beat. I really played in entertainment news, but doing the gossip thing was just not my thing. And I was doing the red carpet thing very early on, but the opportunities I was getting when I came to LA in 2004, there were only a few options. You do the local news routes. Which wasn't necessarily for me, or you get a job on E or MTV, which is not easy. And I would get close, but I wouldn't get [00:03:00] those jobs necessarily. And as I was building my video reel, now it's just, your social media profile is your reel. I was building a VHS sizzle of my content, pretending I was a Hollywood reporter on Hollywood Boulevard interviewing strangers. It was at a very unique time, but I started meeting a lot of individuals in this new kind of website, online video scene. And for me, I was young, I was enthusiastic, I wanted to get experience. And so I was just like, I'm a host. I do this, she's like, where? I'm like, I just found out any way I could do it. And got credentials with a music e-sign at the time. And then I got hired by wire image for their first video program. At the time, they were the biggest celebrity photo agency. And this is around the time I probably met Evan when he was at IFC and I started being Wire Image dot com's online video reporter and I would be on the part of the carpet where it was all the online folks and we [00:04:00] would have a lot of time to talk to each other and get to know each other because we were far down in the carpet. So I was meeting website founders, or my friend likes to say, portal founders. Portal pounders. Marion Ranchet: Oh my God. Shira Lazar: Yeah. And I became a go-to for a lot of the industry in LA when they wanted to do online video. And I was part of many firsts, you know when yahoo.com. I dunno if you remember Evan, David Katz was doing an online video show with Paris Hilton. I interviewed her. It was like a huge deal. I ended up being the first host for the Oscars and the Grammys, and I started picking up my phone. This is pre iPhone because I was covering red carpet stuff for movies.com and a lot of people were talking about how they were bored of the typical red carpet coverage. And I said if you really wanna know what's interesting and edgy, quote unquote, it's what happens in between. So I researched and tried to find a technology that where we could upload directly from wherever we [00:05:00] were. Again, this is now normal, it was hard to find. So I found the Nokia N95 and just started vlogging on my phone. It would go to my website and I'd meet with executives like Lisa Gregorisch at Extra. This is like very going back in time, but a lot of them would ask who's hiring you to do this?I don't get it. What are you doing? I'm like, what do you mean who's hiring me? I'm doing it for my website. This is what I do, which is normal now the idea was building the brand of you. And I had this really amazing kind of aha moment during the writer strikes. I don't know what year it was. Evan Shapiro: I wanna go with 2007. 2000? Yes. Yeah. Shira Lazar: Even before. Yeah, it was like around then and I had my phone, I was driving on Beverly passing, I think one of the studios on Fairfax and Beverly around there, if you know LA, and the writers were there and I decided to stop my car, get outta my car. In the past you would have your news crew and et cetera, but. I just had my phone and I went up and I bumped into Norm [00:06:00] McDonald at the time, the comedian, and I was interviewing him about the writer strike on my phone. He goes, what do you wanna do an interview? Okay, with what? I go with this? He's like what? And it was the first time he'd experienced someone interviewing him on his, on the phone. So this just became a thing for me. I realized it was a thing. And then, yeah, got hired by CBS News, started What's Trending. One of the first separated from What's Trending, then built it more as a business beyond just a live show into an actual company and publisher beyond just being me with other team members and voices. And we've had a crazy wild ride over the past over 15 years now. Evan Shapiro: You're like the athletic for the creator economy, right? You've got video, you've got art that you write, you do interviews. Shira Lazar: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: For red carpets. You cover industry events. And you also write trend pieces as well. It's a full on publication. Shira Lazar: Yeah. We do all types of media and create that media for its platform we're creating for, [00:07:00] so again, YouTube online video, social video, cutdowns, social content, which could be video or it could be a static image, website, articles, et cetera. It's a whole ecosystem. And then we now distribute content as well in other places Like Out of Home. So we have partnerships with Screen Vision, which is in movie theaters and gas station TV. And I could say this here, but yeah, we're about to announce a partnership with Curb. I still need to sign the agreement, but Curb Taxi Cab, you'll see us in Taxi Cabs, New York. Evan, you won't be able to escape me just saying. And so I'm sorry, we're not in France yet. You love it or, yeah, so at a certain point. Yeah. It's been really amazing and I like to say we want people to bump into the brand serendipitously wherever they are. And I love the idea of bringing digital culture and the internet to spaces that surprised people where we were one of the first to bring this, I remember we were covering a story about this big Twitch star, [00:08:00] I'm blanking on his name now, and we did a segment about him on gas station TV and his fans were freaking out like, oh my God, like they're covering our favorite creator on, on the gas stations. I was just at my gas station and it felt like this mainstream moment. So I've always loved being part of those and bringing the red carpet idea to these emerging spaces for people and voices I feel deserve to be heard and never got really that mainstream attention. Obviously that's changing now, but I still look at us as a bunch of kind of disruptors and rebels. I like to feel that way, even as mainstream is accepting us a bit more. Marion Ranchet: Fascinating. And you guys, you've met a long time ago, but you started working together only last year, right? The Creator Map? We did an episode, yeah. And so this is your baby, right? So both of you guys, how did you come to to do that map and why was it important for you guys to do that? Evan Shapiro: Shira is, as a result of this work [00:09:00] Shira, you've been at the center of the creator culture now, since it's, really reinvention into something larger than just people posting videos online. Shira Lazar: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: And you've become an expert in it. You are the six degrees of Shira Lazar that everybody talks about. We all can run our relationships through Shira, and so I, we both independently had ideas to map the creator ecosphere. Shira Lazar: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: on our own. And then we were having a conversation about it and we said, rather than creating competing maps, you're an expert in this area. I'm an expert at mapping media. Let's collaborate and we set off from there about a year ago. We started talking about. Shira Lazar: wild. Yeah, no, it's wild. I wanted to do more report studies and I loved what Evan was doing with the cartography and I thought, yeah, wouldn't it be cool again, it's this idea and the creator space is all about collaboration, and I would love to see it actually happen more. Like I, I think despite us being a [00:10:00] community together and there is collaboration, but there could be more. And so we tend to, because we are so used to hustling and doing our own thing and making it happen you'd be surprised at how much it's still hard to get people together sometimes, because we're all doing our own thing constantly. When we go to an event together, we start collaborating and all that, but sometimes it can be hard unless Mr. Beast calls of course in everyone. And I will be on Beast Games, by the way. No, I in the future. Evan Shapiro: Really? Okay. Shira Lazar: No. No. I see me there. This is like a manifestation, although. Anyway, maybe in the future we'll talk about Beast Games, but, Evan Shapiro: Okay. Shira Lazar: So that's really why I love this, because I feel like it was really in the spirit of the creator space when I approached him and he was thinking about it too and saying, let's just do this together, make it easier. We create better when we work together. And then getting Filmhub on board and then just building out this map. And the idea was that, of course everyone's interested in the creator economy, but then it's also hard to get a sense of [00:11:00] everything in it. From the platforms to those that are emerging on those platforms to the tools, to the representation. Even when you have companies that are coming in to fund this space, they even have a hard time tracking who's who and what's what, because there's so many different parts of it. And while it's connected, it's very fragmented. So we wanted to have a map that really gave you a sense of how vast this space is and who's powering it and what that looks like and in numbers, but in also engagement, which I think is really obviously interesting as well. And so I just thought it was so cool and I feel like I send it to everyone who's so what's this or what's that? I go, just look at the creator ecosphere map really and it'll give you a sense, you need to play with it, interact with it. 'cause it's big. It's Evan Shapiro: big. Shira Lazar: But Marion Ranchet: and so besides you're putting this out there for the community, for the industry, two things, [00:12:00] right? Number one, as you progressed and created it. What did you learn that perhaps you did not know? And ever since you dropped this, what was the reaction, did that spur some conversation within the creator economy? Within big media as well? What, who's trying to figure it out and see what they should do, who they should partner with, should they invest, et cetera? Shira Lazar: I was gonna say, what I thought was interesting is that I think to have someone like Evan put his touch on this space. I think for people in this space, it legitimized it. And I think that, yeah I think so. And then I think for the traditional space to see this space from someone like Evan, but also the authenticity of where I stand was really important, which is why these types of collaborations, that bridge the gap is so key. And so that for me was a big deal. And yeah, seeing people talk about it and share it, who wouldn't typically talk about the space, but then really starting to better understand its [00:13:00] power beyond some of these, I would say, feature stories and typical headlines was really interesting to me. And then of course, and Evan, you could speak to the engagement factor of, again, what we say, quality over quantity, but really I feel like this map dug deeper into that. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, I mean I learned a lot doing this. Most notably, it's interesting, Marion, for those of us who come from the more traditional side of the media, we talk about the data in digital being so much more powerful and all these other kind of things. But then you gotta remember, it's all run by wall gardens. Yeah. And so the data there is as chaotic and a little bit messy as it is in traditional media for different reasons. Competing metrics, competing providers and all that kind of stuff. So just choosing who to partner with on data was hard and Shira was instrumental in bringing Influential Influencer Marketing.AI to the table. They were set really crucial to a lot of the data points on that map. Tube Filter [00:14:00] was another one. But then honestly it became this large scale collaboration on alright, in the company names, forget the data sizing stuff, the distributors and the tool sets and all the infrastructure providers in the curator world, putting together that list and arguing over who should be on it and who shouldn't be on it. I learned a lot from Shira. Filmhub also participated in that a great deal. We went to other outside folks, so I just, I learned a lot about the shape and size of the ecosystem itself. I thought I was a bit of an expert in it going into it, compared to Shira, not so much, but it was a real edifying experience for me. Shira Lazar: And it was also following where money was moving attention and also infrastructure, which I think is interesting, like holistically it's hard to find something that encapsulates all of that. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. And on that last piece, I think in, I feel, and I'd be interested to know what you think, but that in 2025 the creator [00:15:00] economy creators, it became mainstream. I think you need to be living under a rock to not understand that there's this bus big force happening in the markets. Everyone is trying to figure out how to work with creators, et cetera, how to behave more like creators. But there's one thing and. That's because I'm very techy at heart, is that I feel like a lot of technology companies and those guys who are working with the big names, the Netflix, the Disneys of the world, they are still very much focused on gaining clients from legacy traditional media. The only thing is that, right now, pretty much everyone has launched everything that they need to launch. So sure, you need to maintain, upgrade, innovate, et cetera. All of those companies are chasing tier one streaming services. And, unless you swap, there's not a lot of net new business coming your way. And last year at IBC, that's the point that I made with a French company that maybe, you know, which is called Webedia. They represent in Inoxtag, amongst amongst a few example. [00:16:00] And they were saying that those creators and those companies, they need that infrastructure more and more. They're still at a time where YouTube is where they store their videos, and when you ask them to dig up the archives and the raw materials, nowhere to be found. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, no. It is really interesting to watch this happen. The, to, to think about, we are, so to mention, to tag back to something that Shira said, one of the reasons why Marion and I decided to collaborate on this podcast was everything you said, we are stronger together. Each of us has our own brands. We have our, yeah, but we have been much, I think we are much better in this podcast as a brand, individually as a result of collaborating than we would've been had. We never worked together. So I think it's made us both stronger. Marion, I don't know if you agree with that. Marion Ranchet: A hundred percent, absolutely. Evan Shapiro: And we struggle with storage. We accidentally went live the other day while we were playing around with live. We ha we are still building our infrastructure with bubblegum [00:17:00] and bandaids on the back end. Subscribing to this, subscribing to that. Shira, you were instrumental in pointing us to all these infrastructure companies that your cohort, people that you report on, people that you talk to utilize for community building, banking, all of those. But isn't that a reflection? And this is something I think I would really love to hear from you, is how different the creator economy is than when you started. When it was a ragtag kind of just wild west. Now these creators are actual companies now. They actually have people working for them now. They actually have, quote unquote, virtual checkbooks and things like that. In what other ways other than just growing up as an industry have you seen the creator economy shift since you started reporting on it. But especially this decade, what do you think the change is? Shira Lazar: Yeah, it's so interesting because there was many versions of what we're seeing now. There was Maker Studios and Smosh popping up early companies [00:18:00] that ended up getting acquired. And that, so they had some of what we see today, they'd built as a company, not just as a channel clearly but it still wasn't as sophisticated to the level it is now and scaled up. And the partnerships are happening in a small way. I even remember Grace Helbig, getting an E show and all that. There was experiments, but the problem is the experiments were taking someone that was big and throwing them in something new versus saying, how do we find some cross collaboration? And if you have an IP or format that works here, make it bigger, but then the behind the scenes is here like it's more of a strategic approach to it that just wasn't happening back then. And yes, there wasn't the same tools like that are made specifically for creators. Like now you have creator credit cards and then you have people trying to build payment programs where, like payroll programs for creators. You, yes, you have Dropboxes that who were [00:19:00] marketing probably to filmmakers, right? In Hollywood that are now marketing to creators, right? Adobe Suite back then, who they would market towards is very different than now. All these companies while the. The tool definitely is different, right? Because now we have AI they're more in the box tools. They're hopefully more accessible, a bit cheaper more mobile because we're not necessarily just on desktop building right now. But there, yeah, different variations of that, that are now marketed for creators that in the past were just creatives. Yeah. Evan Shapiro: And so that is, I think that's the big transition is they were just creatives. So I'm just making shit. The business is not really my primary objectives. Now the business is central to what, who these creators are. Shira Lazar: Yeah. And in the past it was, you're a filmmaker, you're a photographer now, I believe if you put any of your content online, even if you have a traditional position, you're still a creator because you have an ability to make money through the, [00:20:00] maybe the traditional ways you did, but now there's a whole other possible revenue stream of making money online if you approach it in that way. And yeah, there were no creator funds or investments in that way. Yeah. That just was not happening. And if they, if someone did something, they would do it as a one-off. Oh, we did our creator thing. We bought that one company, we partnered with that one person. That was their strategy. We're doing the creator thing. And so it was different. It, influencer marketing wasn't really called influencer marketing. It was, can we connect with talents? In a way, like when What's Trending started doing influencer marketing and agency services, it wasn't even called that. It was just that you wanted to connect with creators and talent we knew we wanted to be part of that business because those are our relationships and at the time it wasn't influencer marketing, it was just marketing. And there, so there wasn't really names for these things. And they would put kind of experimental budget against it, or it'd be in social and digital. And [00:21:00] so now it's easier for people to wrap their heads around because there's a name to it. And as we all know, industries name, need names for things True or else it's hard to, for them to understand and take it in. You would need to not dumbify it, but it, it needs to have a framework and a structure and oh, I can put this in a budget and this is where I understand how to place it. Or else, again, you all, you end up in the, with the innovation people. Or again, yes, the digital people Evan Shapiro: Or they are meddling in it. Shira Lazar: Exactly. So I would say that I think the past year the maturity has been next level where again, I think that in the past, people had their one thing they were doing, people realized it can't just be one thing. They need to be trying a lot of different things like they're doing with any part of the industry to see what sticks. And just because something doesn't stick doesn't mean all creator stuff sucks. It means they chose the wrong thing. Evan Shapiro: And that's, so there's two things. [00:22:00] One, I think you've been very instrumental in teaching traditional media folks how to creator. But you've also been really good at teaching creators how to traditional media. What have you found that traditional media folks understand the least that they're beginning to learn about and frankly, the other way around? What are the big pain points that you're seeing like Unilever moved a huge amount of money into influencer marketing. Shira Lazar: Yeah. Evan Shapiro: They went from 30% of their budget to 50% of their budget. The average influencer marketing budget increased like almost 200% last year. And with all this money coming into the creator sphere, it's great for creators, but it also comes with a ton of challenges and pitfalls too. So where are you seeing the pain points on both sides? Shira Lazar: So I think when we think about those numbers are huge and amazing. But then I think there's been reports that a lot of it goes to the top, the 1%, like there's a creator middle class that actually most people don't make more than $15,000 being a creator. So I feel like there's [00:23:00] this sense of huge opportunity, which there is, but there also needs to be the reality of what most people make and how they work. Because I think that when people think, oh, there's a ton of money, you guys are just rich. It, you start also expecting things from a labor market that they can't actually give you, because most of their work is actually unpaid labor. And when you have people that think it's all glamor and you have so much money, so they're just being like you should be able to do this. And then you have another person that's saying no, this is actually my lived experience and you're not believing me and trusting me that I actually need to get paid for this. There's, and there's also that people want it based on CPMs and they're not taking into account the actual labor that goes into it should be labor plus CPMs like there's, I think there're Evan Shapiro: Production, with a normal media company, you'd pay production and media with a creative Shira Lazar: totally Evan Shapiro: You them one check and expect everything. Shira Lazar: Yeah. And it's just that I feel like [00:24:00] it's, it isn't fair because yes, there are some creators that maybe fall into that bracket, but most don't, and it doesn't account for their time. And so it becomes performance based and no other work. Yeah. Hire me next based on the performance, if it worked, if it didn't, it didn't. But there's still a lot of work that goes into it that we need. Get to be paid for. Evan Shapiro: And Marion you see this a lot. You throw conferences for people. You write the papers for people. You get pulled into creative processes and they're like you'll just write that, or you'll just make that video. You'll just record seven videos for us, and they pay you, they wanna pay you one thing. They don't wanna pay you for your time, and then the media that you're pushing out, which they expect to come with. Isn't that, and we've talked about this, you and I, so I'm, Marion Ranchet: Yeah, absolutely. Evan Shapiro: Giving away your secrets here, but. Marion Ranchet: No, absolutely. And I think the question is, it's very hard to price yourself. It's, but ultimately you either fall into the pitfall of pricing for your time and you very often forget to pro, or for what it's gonna cost you, but you don't, really price for value. [00:25:00] And ultimately this is, so some people are saying it's all performance, then there's nothing. Or people are saying, this is how much time I'm gonna spend and how much that's gonna cost. But either way, you are missing out the actual value that you brought doing X, Y, z for brands. Yeah, we get better. But I think you, you said something interesting about that. Unpaid work. And I have to say that, all of that LinkedIn writing and Substack and even what we do to prep for the pods, like you said, it shouldn't go more than 20 hours a week. And I have to go look at my notes because honestly, it takes a lot of time to create that much content and it is paying off, but it is not a, Evan Shapiro: You're not being compensated for it. Shira Lazar: Yeah. Marion Ranchet: And you don't see it right away. Yeah. So you see it as a whole when the year has ended, you know that it's a compounded effort that brought you that amount of money. But it's very hard to say that amount of [00:26:00] time that I've spent, equal that amount of money. Shira Lazar: And I wanna tap back into that in a moment. 'cause we did get into that in our creator mental health survey, where we found a certain amount of unpaid labor hours that after that hour it led to decreased and negative wellbeing. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Shira Lazar: So we see that and the numbers and the data that backs that. But I do wanna just, go back to that is that, you're getting paid for your time, but also, yes, your experience what, your knowledge and all the other things that led you to that moment. Which is unpaid, which hopefully that it back pays almost you. But then I would say we're in a really interesting time where there's so much attention. It leads, I think, to a lot of amazing people getting opportunities. But then it's a land grab where a lot of people see, oh, creators that have not been in this space, and they're building these influencer marketing companies and they're trying to get all this brand money and they're not necessarily the right people to do it. And then they hire us and they barely know what to [00:27:00] do. And it then becomes a bad look for all of us because they're not managing the process properly. And and I see this time and time again, traditional agencies getting, because they move into the digital realm, creator, oh, we're launching our creator marketing division. And so they could get a few million dollars from their current brands that they work with. So they don't lose that to another agency. And yet, they do not know how to do it properly. They either hire the same people doing the same things, or they are telling you what to do, not really understanding the platforms. Like I worked on a recent campaign that was incredible, but yet I was amazed of the things they were requesting me to do, the agency that made me feel like you're not on these platforms 'cause you do not understand how they work. Like you're asking me to put a link in a caption on Instagram are you?What is going on? Evan Shapiro: That's not how Instagram, works. Yeah. Shira Lazar: And I know that you're getting that, but like something like that where, and I'm like, [00:28:00] and I know you're getting paid, not maybe you as an individual, but the company's getting paid a huge amount. There are then other agencies led by creators, but maybe aren't getting these other huge deals because traditional companies now, it's a land grab. So that's the one thing I think that's gonna happen. Over the next two years, we're gonna see people try and even, I've talked to countless traditional agencies who I talk to and they go, we wanna work with you. You're a creator, led, blah, blah, blah. And yet someone else sells them on some shiny object because they're a big name company or they have a big team and then they mess up an entire creator campaign. I've heard countless of these stories and then I get asked as the, we are the mom and pop, more guerrilla marketers that are, we're creators, we're, and we clean it up, or then we have to give them advice of what to do that they're not doing and why they're not doing it properly. Evan Shapiro: And so two things: One, you can save a lot of time by actually hire an expert to walk you through how to creator, how [00:29:00] to do this. There are, yes, there are rules to this. And one of them is don't give your creators too many rules. Don't, you're not hire. Shira Lazar: Yeah. Listen to us. Listen. Evan Shapiro: Exactly. Listen, Shira Lazar: yeah, listen to us like. There's that and just to, and my last thing, I don't wanna go to rent 'cause there's so much opportunity. But again, if you're gonna be building out creator programs, don't wait like for your agency, to come in and then hire a creator, build it, get the creator to even help you hire that agency. 'cause we could then see through what they're doing and say, this is not good. You might think it's good, but it's not. Evan Shapiro: That's a big shift, I think. And we talked to Jasmines Dawson about this and we've talked to other people about this hiring actual creators as executives. Shira Lazar: Creator in residence programs, right? But it shouldn't happen as this help Evan Shapiro: you advocate your yourself on how to do this Shira Lazar: It's not part of the campaign. It's pre-campaign, right? Pre strategy. They're building it with you from the foundation with the other executives. Not when you finally have your agency, and now it's gonna be a fight between who's paying for this one creator [00:30:00] person, like no. Evan Shapiro: You wouldn't, but it's happening. So you wouldn't just install solar panels on your roof without getting a green expert to come in and tell you what panels to buy and how to install 'em. It's I know that sounds like a big metaphorical leap, but it is the same thing. Don't just dump money into the creator space without having someone, a Sherpa, who can tell you how to do it right. It's seriously, you'll hurt yourself and you'll hurt your brand. You have very huge possibility of hurting your brand. Let's transition though a little bit because we talked about the struggles of a creator and the challenges of being a creator. It's a lonely business 'cause it's, a lot of time, staring at a ring light or staring at a keyboard or staring at a phone. And then, a lot of time like reading briefs and doing all that kind of stuff. You started Creators for Mental Health to address all this, and then you did a study around it, which has been really illuminating what, how did you come to founding Creators for Mental Health, what was the motivation behind it and what did you find out through this recent big survey that you did? Shira Lazar: Yeah, so having been in the space two decades, [00:31:00] basically, and from the beginning and having a lot of high highs and low lows, myself as a creator, but also small business owner, an entrepreneur where there was no real path. I was going through it and learning along the way which it can be challenging. And also watching my peers and what they were going through too, and just seeing such a lack of support. Beyond obviously support, people are there when you're doing well and going viral and they're there for the business, but they're not there necessarily for the human. And seeing this business grow and just realizing like any other creative business, whether it be actors or musicians, they've built some of these infrastructures for support. They, there's obviously unions, there's music cares, there's backline now for musicians. We just didn't have any of that, and yet we're the fastest growing workforce and workplace in the world, and there was just, for me, a huge gap. Having gone through my own [00:32:00] personal growth and mental health journey and then having an opportunity into 2024 to do an event that was bringing together mental health brands and creators, I literally just called it creators for mental health. It was very simple what do we call this? Let's not make it that complicated. And that went really well. We did another one in New York with Shopify and the response was incredible. Even Creator Economy, NYC, who's a cohost, was like, that was one of our top events, which is amazing. Brett does great work. And so I realized going into 2025, I think there's something here. There's clearly a need. People wanna come together to one, discuss also as people that have platforms, how do we be better advocates, mental health advocates for our communities. But then also the one thing we're not asked while we're megaphones and mouthpieces. Very rarely do people ask us how are we doing? And that was the point of it. And it expanded into an initiative bringing mental wellbeing tools to the creator economy through now [00:33:00] events, content, education, services and research. And in May of 2025, I launched Creator Care, which is discounted sliding scale therapy for creators starting in California where you know, you can get therapy with or without insurance and you don't need to get a bulk of sessions. It could be session by session, and we shift it based on what you're earning because some creators, you can make 30,000 one month and zero the next month. And so it really stops people from getting support that they need. And I've seen this. And so that was one thing. And then we did this research project that you mentioned because it was clear as I was building this. People were asking in brands in the industry what do creators need? What are they saying they're interested in? And so it was clear we needed the data. So we brought a bunch of brands together to sponsor this study. These things cost money. And we got a researcher and Lupiani Insights&strategies, shout out. And I do wanna give a shout out to the brands who sponsored it because these things can't be possible without [00:34:00] them. Opus, BeReal, Statusphere, and Social Current. And these are people that just saw the importance and jumped in and you know how hard it is for that to happen. So super grateful. And we came out with this 50 page comprehensive report on creators in mental health in North America. 542 creators did the survey. And the results are really gonna help us and inform us as to how we serve this community and how we work with platforms and brands as well. Marion Ranchet: Yeah. Super interesting. When you look at the key themes that come out of those those, that survey and people you talk to, you have, we said isolation, lack of support, identity, conflict. That's very interesting. Someone saying, my audience wants vulnerability, but some days I just wanna post a recipe. I was like, yeah, some days I don't wanna write about streaming in Europe. I wanna talk about the fact that I'm gonna start learning drums this year or whatever. Shira Lazar: Cool. Marion Ranchet: There's the burnout piece. There's, [00:35:00] Shira Lazar: yeah Marion Ranchet: you mentioned the money thing, but what's interesting and what should be a big focus, because I think it's at the core of everything else, and that should matter to brands and platform because at the end of the day, this thing works. Thanks due to creators without the creators, all of that does not work anymore. And they said metrics, obsession, content, performance anxiety, algorithmic volatility. There's no warning. One day your views dropped by 80% and you're left wondering what you did wrong. Like all of those things are crucial and I think the ecosystem can do something about it. Shira Lazar: Yeah. What was interesting is we saw a negative wellbeing score with those who check their analytics more than once a day, which is interesting. Yeah. And it actually gives you negative wellbeing, Evan. Yeah. So now FYI exactly Evan Shapiro: was saying, I was pointing out myself I check my analytics like every 15 minutes and it's Shira Lazar: totally Evan Shapiro: disturbing to your psyche. It really is. Shira Lazar: Which it goes back to as we could build teams and support systems, maybe you noticing that [00:36:00] you're. So close to it. Then you have other people on your team that do it, or maybe put a time weekly that you're gonna check it. And then being able to do a report. I think this is a great thing to also inform the platforms. If we tell them, Hey, this is actually causing negative wellbeing for your community that you say you care about. What if you then said to the community, we're gonna be doing weekly reports for you since your inbox, you don't need a check, because we've recognized that this doesn't support your mental health, and we wanna make sure you're happy and healthy on these platforms and giving the best of yourself to your audiences. Amazing. So yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Evan Shapiro: Yeah, really good. Just to put some numbers on this, less than 10% say they have excellent mental health. Of these, of the people you surveyed, more than two thirds, 69% said they're facing financial instability due to their content creation. Two thirds say they, they the obsession over metrics hurts their mental health. 89% have no access to mental health. So these are all like, these are. Crisis points [00:37:00] in what is now the fastest growing segment of the talent economy within media. Shira Lazar: Yep. Evan Shapiro: Growth, Shira Lazar: I would say. And some other, and thank you. 'cause I don't have the report in front of me, so I appreciate you saying some of those things. It was like a long report. No, I really. Evan Shapiro: Not obsessing about your metrics. Shira Lazar: I yes. Thank you. So I'm trying to support my mental health right now. So what was the most heartbreaking stat was that one in 10 creators have suicidal ideation based on their work. And that's double the national average. And as you mentioned, nine out of 10 have no support. For me, that it is a clear gap for the industry and really showcases what we get to work on. And I don't say that lightly. Leading up to the holidays, we had two creators in the us one that was in their early thirties and one in their late forties who died by suicide. And one of them, I had actually approached their agency about sharing creator care and just resources, not even mine. [00:38:00] It wasn't about being the exclusive and being the only one to own. I said, just please share some resources with your creators. We wanna normalize this. It's just like you share a 10 99 with people sign up and they're like, oh, this is awkward. We don't feel like, it's not really our place. Not to say this, but like it, it wasn't a tragic irony that was a, an agency where one of these creators died by suicide. Not to say it would've made a huge difference. But we never know. We never know if stuff like that makes a difference. So part of the work we're doing is building in this new year based on our research, I'm working with Harvard to build this creator toolkit, which is going to help creators better talk to their audiences about these issues even in the dms, not just publicly. A creator toolkit will include how to support self, 'cause our pillars in creators for mental health are self, community and advocacy. We're not taking away advocacy, but we can't be great advocates if we ourselves are falling apart. And that's a reality. And then also we're gonna [00:39:00] be training the people that are first in line with creators, which is management and representation. I don't expect you to be a therapist, although you would say managers think that their therapists sometimes if you talk to them, but making sure they have the tools that are trained themselves to manage that as well as peer support. These are things that creators have asked for and they've shown that could help. Again, we won't know until we implement these things, but I think at this point, knowing the stats, anything could help and I'm willing to try anything if it means saving someone's life. Evan Shapiro: It's amazing. Really amazing and it and it is crucial. I think, we're all scrolling TikTok and Instagram shorts and YouTube twitch and whatever on a daily basis, but we're never really sitting there and thinking, what's the human being behind this video? Yeah. How are they supporting themselves? How are they eating? How are they feeling? And too much empathy can also, overload your system as well. But it is really important that someone like you who understands this industry is championing and advocating on behalf of the people who, [00:40:00] you know, to Marion's point from earlier are the fuel of the, of all these platforms. Shira Lazar: Yeah, and I was just gonna add I think that, and for good reason we've had a huge focus and we should still on the users online and on social, and how do we make sure they're protected. But I think tangentially we need to think about the future of work on social media. So for me, what I'm fascinated by and I wanna work on is both how do we protect and create safe and healthy spaces as people who exist online and on social, and work on online and social. And it goes and works hand in hand, actually. Versus I just think people have not been thinking about that holistically right now. I'm hoping this work starts bringing this to light and making people think more about it and take action on it as well. Marion Ranchet: And just this week you announced The Creator Bill of Rights for those who are not legalists, what's a bill of rights and what are you trying to achieve with that? Shira Lazar: Yeah, A Bill of Rights is a framework before it gets put into law. It's a [00:41:00] presentation of ideas that gives people a sense of what we might want and what could be put and made into a law. So it's the beginning of a conversation. It's a framework. And so I've been working with Congressman Rocanna and his team on this since I connected with him in May, when I was launching Creator Care and I was just sharing passionately about the work I was doing and why it's important and how this is a growing workforce. We're not just a bunch of influencers you should roll your eyes at more and more people wanna be in this industry. And it's growing very quickly. IAB says 1.5 million people are full-time creators in the us We all know the economy is gonna be a half a trillion dollar economy by 2030, and yet people are not taking this seriously as a workforce. And he goes, it seems like you guys need a bill of rights. And I was like, yeah, ha. Okay. And then we ended up starting to have conversations and then from these conversations with me and other creators he had talked to, including, I'll give a shout out to another one, Lisandra Vasquez, who's a comedian. [00:42:00] They drafted this and part of it, it includes one acknowledging us as a workforce and as small business owners and entrepreneurs and digital gig workers. It also it presents and asks for a pathway towards monetization on platforms. Some platforms have monetization, many don't, and they're not trying to figure it out which is an issue. If they're monetizing off of our content, then there should be a responsibility or else it's predatory and it's exploitation. It also demands transparency around algorithms as well. It we wanna create discounted health insurance for us as a group of workers and also portable benefits, including retirement. We also talk about AI and protection around likeness, IP, and deep fakes. And so all of these things are part of our worker economy and our creative economy. And so we're a big enough group [00:43:00] that I believe it matters enough, especially as work changes around the world, but here in America, we should have protections that other groups and industries have. We need ones that are specific to us, obviously. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. The problem is that I think a lot of people in the world don't see the creator economy as an industry. They see it as a collection of bullshit that floats around the internet. But it is an industry, it's an enormous industry that, Unilever puts half of their marketing money into. That Meta now generates more revenue than all TV on the face of the earth, all television. So it is an industry and these are the workers. Yeah. And they need protection just like. Auto line workers and barbers and every other industry out there. Shira Lazar: Yeah. And Roe uses a great analogy. He goes, there's 83,000 steel workers in the US but there's 1.5 to 10 million creators, and you're just letting us dilly dally and say it's the wild west. How? Why should it be the Wild West if companies are making billions of dollars? This doesn't make sense. If this was an industry that was falling apart and money was [00:44:00] going away, unfortunately, like other media industries, I would say, I wish you could have this, but maybe this is not the right time and place because it seems like your industry is falling apart. But no, that is not happening. It's far from it. Yeah. And it's growing. And so we need to start establishing this. And I think that a lot of us are relying on the possibility of Unions and SAGs doing great work. There's Creators Guild of America, who I work with as well. They're doing some good stuff. The fact is, I do think unfortunately, we are too fragmented and we're doing too many different things for a one size fits all, which is why I think from a state level or our federal level, we should establish this as something. So again, because this is a framework, a bill of rights, now we've put it out to the public. We wanna get bipartisan co-signers, so other representatives, as well as we have a petition that creators are signing at creatorbillofrights.com. We're gonna be continuing this as an open conversation and adjusting as we see what makes sense. So this is just [00:45:00] a presentation of these ideas that hopefully starts a bigger conversation. Marion Ranchet: One of the reasons why we wanted to talk to you about that is when, so when we met at MIPCOM, you spoke about that. We had our friends from lighthouse, they spoke about how within, their facilities, they would find a way to have, mental health Wupport for the creators, et cetera, et cetera, and I couldn't help but notice how even if I see there's a massive lack. At a minimum, the good thing is that there's some level of awareness and recognition that there's something wrong and that it needs to be fixed. And I feel like in corporate media, in big media there's an underlying problem, but no one talks about it. It is seen as a disgrace. People feel bad, they feel lonely the same way, even though yes, in theory yes, they can go see the company doctor, they can do X, Y, Z, but there's a vision of what success looks like, et cetera. That is not [00:46:00] helping. And I'll be honest and Evan knows. That's what happened to me. I was in corporate, went through burnout, et cetera, et cetera. And none of that support and that awareness existed, so even if I had access to a doctor the mentality of people in that space made it that I felt ashamed and I struggled like crazy. So the good thing that you guys have is that if people recognize that they have, there's something wrong and that you manage to have that just not with the creators, but as you said, the platforms, the brands, the agencies, the entire ecosystem. And be that one voice. Hopefully you'll find you'll be able to do, goods. In the next few, in the next few years on that front, and that's the one thing that I wish you. Shira Lazar: Oh, thank you. I also, I wish you also good mental health as well in this next era of your work, but No, it's really true. I think that there's an awareness. The problem is if you ask anyone what are you doing? Or Is there any help? No one would be able to tell you where to go or [00:47:00] what to do. Yeah, so it's about making it more easy and accessible for people and so people know where to go and guess what? There aren't there. There's a lot of resources out there, and yet still people don't know where to turn. So again, it's just about saying this is part of the foundation of this industry and we un understand it. But what does that look like in action? When you act, what's the tangible action to it? And if we're building from scratch and we're saying, this is new, disruptive, let's build from scratch together, let's build it into the foundation of it versus as an afterthought. Evan Shapiro: Yeah. It is really important conversation and what happened is, the creator economy wasn't something someone sat down and designed even, the automotive industry, it came either a through accident and happenstance, but then once cars and roads were built, there was a system for it. And then there became unions we're, we still feel so far away from it in the creator economy 'cause it is so asymmetrical. There's not one, headquarters for it. Appreciate all the work that [00:48:00] you're doing in this space. Loved collaborating with you on the Creator Economy Map. It's always great to work with you. And we'll do one of our VIP salon dinners where you two first met again soon, hopefully, where both of you can be in the same place. But Shira, thanks so much for being on the pod. It's been amazing having you here. Shira Lazar: No, I'm so appreciative. Thank you. Thanks for getting it and for having me and for the work you do. I'm such a fan. So thank you. Evan Shapiro: Thanks for all your hard work. See you again soon. Marion Ranchet: What an amazing episode she's in. She, it's insane. So from where she's coming from what she's done, what she does now, how she's like selfless, right? Evan Shapiro: yeah. And she has her business to run and she has her brand that she takes care of a great deal. But she feels, and I don't mean to say this about her without her being here, but maternal over the creatorshere here. Because she's been at it since it was, ignited. And I think her approach of. Trying to create a more stable mental health environment. And frankly, just living peace of [00:49:00] mind environment across the ecosystem is not just admirable, but I don't know that what we would do without her, she's a real, yeah. Marion Ranchet: She's fantastic Evan Shapiro: prize for us all in the creator economy. Thank you Shira, for being here. So that leads us to our question of the week which, you know I, that conversation really got me thinking about my relationship with social media, my relationship to my own metrics. Which is not healthy. I will, I admit it and I will continue to admit. So let's throw this out there and I don't think we need to answer this as a close end ended question here, but throw this to the audience. What is your relationship with social media, either as a creator, as a user, as a poster, do you obsess over the likes and re-shares of your Instagram posts or your LinkedIn posts? Do you hire creators? And when you do you think about them as small industries or do you think about them as vendors or do you think about them as humans? So I would throw that out there. I, I don't know what you think about that question. I didn't ask you permission for that first. Marion Ranchet: No, I love it. We should have people, send us a note, anything we read, everything that [00:50:00] you sent our way. 'Cause I'd love to get a feel for how people do that and myself. When we prepared for this I read a lot of those things and I was like, that, that hit home, a bit too close in some cases, and I have to say, especially in 2025 on LinkedIn and others, this whole thing about, the metrics and how organic reach is decreasing, it got to me at the end of the year, but I've decided to not care at the beginning of this year and just keep doing it regardless. Evan Shapiro: I'm gonna have to learn how to do that. Not care. Yeah. So I think that's really crucial. Let's all take this question of the week and examine our relationships with the creator economy, the social media economy, the social media platforms, and maybe try to take a healthier approach to it. As this year progresses, this is a great episode, really important and fun and lovely to see Shira. It's always great to see you, Marion. I will see you next week in London, although this will air after we've seen each other. So I'll see you in London next week. Marion Ranchet: [00:51:00] Cheers.