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Should you talk to the kids about infidelity · SPLITUP

• 0:07
  Speaker: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal or psychological advice.
• 0:12
  Speaker: Listening does not create a professional relationship with a split up or any guest.
• 0:17
  Speaker: Lonnie and Robert are only licensed in the state of Arizona.
• 0:20
  Speaker: For legal or mental health concerns, please consult a licensed professional in your state.
• 0:26
  Speaker: Guest identities may be changed for privacy.
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Hi, welcome to the Split Up app.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I'm Launi Sheldon, family law attorney in Arizona for over 25 years and founder of Split Up.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Well, one of the founders of Split Up.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: And today we're going to be talking about ask Robert stuff, right?
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: Ask the doctor.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: So I'm pretty excited about that.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: These segments are always really fun for me because in prepping we, you know, go back and forth quite a bit.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: But welcome, Robert.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: And I'm Robert DiCarlo.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: I'm a licensed psychologist in Arizona as well.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: And welcome to Split Up.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Lonnie.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: So Robert is my other half of this partnership, and we're super excited.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: He never says that, but um I want to say that.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: So today I wanted to bring up to him, you know, how do you tell the kids that you're getting divorced?
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: And we're gonna go a little deeper in that.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: But I do want to point out that in going deeper in that, we're going we're basing this on if both parents are kind of on the same page.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: So there's two parents kind of on the same page, want to have a conversation with the kids and want to know how to do it.
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: This is not going to be the high conflict one where one parent is saying a bunch of crap about the other parent.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: We're gonna get into that one later.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: Um and we did that because we really need to break this up into two sections because even when Robert and I were discussing it, we really kind of got on these tangents, which are fine, but it kind of takes away from where we were if everybody's agreeing.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: And we just the assumption is, Robert, I think that everyone agrees that we're gonna try and do the what's in the best interest of the kids.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: We're not getting them involved, and we just want to make this as easy as possible.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: That's the premise that we're starting with.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Is that right?
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's where we're gonna start.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: We're certainly gonna talk about when the narrative drifts a little bit and maybe some conflictual areas.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Uh, but as far as the initial joint narrative about why we're divorcing, I think we're gonna start there and we'll see where we go.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then we'll do another podcast for that because I Robert and I have some disagreements on this, and and so we want to make one where we're not, you know, fighting.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: And it's a good thing we're not in the same room today because I think we've he's trying to be so patient with me.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: And I was like, nope, but I don't agree.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: So Well, I think Lonnie, that also is reflective of the fact that there's not always a straightforward answer.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: There's not a necessarily always a right and a wrong, it's it's somewhere in between.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: All right, I'll I'll give you that.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll give you I'll give you that for right now.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Um when we hit the next one, it's it's it's we're both, you know, dukes up.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, so let's kind of let's let's just kind of back up or or hit the first question, which is how do we tell the kids we're getting divorced?
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: Like how how if if somebody came to you and said, Hey, um, me and my significant other are going to get divorced, we have three kids ranging from ages five or four or five to nine or ten to fifteen.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: How do you tell these kids that you're getting divorced?
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Well, Launi, the first thing I would really want to emphasize is that the conversation you have with your kids, whatever it may be, it does not have to be perfect.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: I think parents put a lot of pressure on themselves to say the exact right words because they feel like that will make it easier for the kids.
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: But what children really need most is not that perfection.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: What they need for you to show up as is calm, clear, reassuring, um, and ultimately creating protection from the adult details or like a firewall between the maybe the uglier details of why mom and dad or the parents are splitting up and kind of shielding the kids from those adult deals.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: So at the end of the day, the core message is going to be really simple.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: You're loved.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: This is not your fault.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: We're gonna take care of you, and you can ask some questions of us.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: So that's sort of the the high level.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: And what's the what's the level on what you're saying?
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: So you're getting divorced.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: Let's let's let's, you know, I know they can't do it perfect, and I know they're not going to do it right necessarily because if there is a full right or wrong, but yeah, what do you what what are the main what should your main focus be on telling them?
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the children need to hear first and foremost that this is an adult decision.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: They need to know that they did not cause it, and more so they can't fix it.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Uh, they also need really concrete information about what will change and what might stay the same.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: So you have to keep in mind for kids, divorce is not just an emotional concept.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: It also ties in the practical.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: So kids are really quickly or reflexively going to start to wonder things like that you're not even thinking of as an adult, like where will I sleep?
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Who's gonna pick me up?
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: Will I have to change schools?
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Will I get to see my friends?
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: What about the dog?
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: You know, what about my bedroom?
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: So I usually suggest that the parents plan the conversation before they have it, if the parents are cooperative and able to do that.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: Um, don't tell the children during an argument or right before school or right before bedtime, or when one parent is highly emotional.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: You're gonna want to choose a time really strategically when you think the children can react and ask questions, um, and where there's gonna be the ultimate amount of support afterwards.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: So um it's helpful uh when possible for both parents to tell the children together because it's gonna reduce the feeling that the child has to choose sides.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Um that's not always safe or realistic.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Uh, Lonnie, as you mentioned, we're gonna do a whole podcast on, you know, when you know safety issues or even just practical issues prevent that joint narrative.
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: Um, but just as sort of a uh primer on that, if there's domestic violence or a course of control, maybe there's intimidation, maybe one partner's leaving because of a substance abuse issue or a serious mental health problem, um, a joint conversation may not be appropriate.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: And we just want to emphasize safety always comes first.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Um, so here's just a simple script, I think, Lonnie, that parents can follow.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: Um, and of course, it'd have to be adapted to your specific circumstance, but it could go something like this Hey, we really want to talk to you about something important.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: This is a grown-up decision, and it's not your fault.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: We have decided that we are going to separate or divorce.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: Um, and kids may not necessarily know the difference between those.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: So you could say separate initially.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Um, but ultimately we both love you very much.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: That will not change.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: Some other things will change and some things will stay the same.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: And we're happy to tell you what we know, and you can ask any questions now or later.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Now that's well, that's interesting.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: So that I'm gonna write that down because I know I'm gonna want to get back to what you just said, um, with the happy to answer your questions, because I feel like we're gonna answer questions sideways if we're answering questions.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and and let me maybe pull that back a little bit.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I'd say we're happy to answer questions that seem like too maybe uh jovial.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Um I would just say you can ask questions uh now or later.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, and and when you're talking about that, I if you haven't done this yet, and I know you've created an addendum for our um for our app users to to have available while they're going through this.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: But what I'm gonna ask you to do now is add to that addendum, and maybe we can add some stuff here in the in the um in our description.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: But I loved how you were saying, you know, what bed am I gonna sleep in?
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Who's gonna pick me up?
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Because that does just sound like a little kid worried about little kid things.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: And I'm wondering if we can create a checklist of some sort where the kid might not even be thinking of it at the moment, but maybe you could think of it.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: You'll have two bedrooms, you'll have everything that you need.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: Mommy and daddy will both still be picking you up from school.
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Um, nothing's gonna change with your friends, like that kind of stuff.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, mom or dad's gonna keep the dog so you can visit the dog every whatever, or some people let the dog go back and forth.
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: Um, I'm not sure I would be willing to do that, but um, maybe I'm just more selfish because I love my dogs, but and those are great ideas.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Keep in mind, and I'll just take the dog example.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: I think ult in the beginning, when things might feel, in some instances, sort of cooperative and everybody's trying to kind of figure things out, parents may initially have ideas about what they want to do.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: It's harder to claw an idea or an agreement back and sort of sell it to the kids.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: So just be careful about what you're going to say because let's say right now you feel like the dog should go back and forth and that provides a lot of comfort, but then you discover some practical reason why that can't happen, it's going to be harder to walk that back for the kids.
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: So you do have to kind of have some forethought with the caveat that some things may change and you just you kind of have to roll with some things.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, you there's things that you don't want to put in your parenting plan that you that you may not want to put in your parenting plan that you might be stuck with.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Or so not just with the kids, but also in your parenting plans.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Or I'll just give you a really common example.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know how common it is, but maybe parents have an idea that they'll keep the marital home and the kids can stay in the home and do what we call nesting.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: And that may sound really um ideal for the kids, but maybe there's a very practical or logical reason why that can't happen.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: For example, maybe they can't, the the family just can't afford to have an alternative residence.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: And so it forces decisions in other in other domains.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: If you tell the kids they're going to stay in the house and then you have to kind of pull the rug out from under them, that's gonna feel worse than simply saying, we don't really know what the plan is for the living arrangement yet, but we're open to your feedback and you know, we will, as the parents, make some decisions and let you know when we've decided.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: So it's okay to say I don't know and sort of park it for now.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: That's okay.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: I think as long as you say I don't know, but we're gonna we'll make sure that you're safe and you have a place to sleep.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: But yeah, the the guaranteeing and nesting thing when you've got you know attorneys fighting for everybody's rights, and sometimes we can get in the way of making the kids most comfortable by you know fighting for everyone's rights.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: So um yeah, it might but it might not even be about a fight necessarily, it could just be the parents recognized they they spoke too quickly and they didn't consider all the facts, even if it's an agreement that they can't do it now, it's still a disappointment, another disappointment and barrier for the kids if they had their expectations set.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: So when you're asking the kids about or when you're telling the kids about this, do you tell them all together at the different ages?
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: You sit them all three down and say this is what's happening, or do you maybe pull the older one aside and say, hey, this is what's happening.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna talk to your younger siblings later.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: Don't say anything to them right now.
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: I want to talk to them, but I wanted, I I think there's things that you're old enough to understand, but they're not old enough to understand.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a tough one, Lonnie.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: I I think, you know, there's no two family circumstances that are going to be the same.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: So what I can do is talk about maybe the differences in how we communicate with younger kids versus maybe adolescents and teenagers.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: And then there can be decisions made about whether those conversations should happen jointly or separately, or maybe a portion of it happens together, and then you do sort of sidebars with older kids.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Um, but as it relates to younger kids, you really want you need simple words and repeated reassurance.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: They're not going to understand marriage or divorce the way adults do.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Uh, what they do understand though is routines, caregivers, homes, bedtime, things like school.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: We talked about pets, meals, who's picking them up.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: So for a preschool age child, I would keep it really concrete.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Mom and dad, or the parents are going to live in different homes.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: You didn't do anything wrong.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: We both love you.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: We will tell you uh where you're going to be sleeping or who will be picking you up once we know.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Um, and and young children may ask the same questions over and over.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that they're not listening.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Repetition is how they make sense of really big changes and just trying to understand their world.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Um, so I'll just give an example.
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: A five-year-old might ask, but are you coming home?
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: And they may repeat that 10 times.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: They're not trying to frustrate you, they're trying to feel safe and get that reassurance.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Keep in mind, as the parent, that could be really activating for you.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: It could activate all sorts of emotions when you hear and see your child seeming to be in distress about who's going to pick them up or who's going to be coming home.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: And you may have an emotional response to that.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Um, so keep in mind it's common for younger kids to regress.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Um, they may become really clingy and have sleep problems.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: You may see an increase in temper tantrums, you may even see uh regression in potty training.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: So they may start wetting the bed again, they may want extra reassurance that feels really, again, like needy or clingy, but it's it's with the goal of getting that reassurance.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: So if you respond as a parent calmly, talking about predictable routine routines, um, simple calendars, maybe visual calendars could be really helpful, comfort items like stuffed animals or pets, um, and just lots of repetition of you're safe, you're loved, this is not your fault.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Um yeah, I mean, I I I feel like um having I've gone through this, my kids regressed, it was it was tough for them.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: And and honestly, I'm not sure if the nesting helped or her because we did the nesting.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: But then when we were divorced, we were just divorced, and there wasn't sort of a there wasn't sort of an in-between.
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: It was like we're all living in this house together, sort of.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Um, and then we're gonna be separate and everything's done.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: It was kind of just a weird thing, I think.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Um so I I think that I think that depends too on what your search what your specific circumstances are, if someone's staying, if someone's leaving, and what that's like.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and and to that point, it's also gonna depend on the kids' ages.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: So, you know, I talked about younger kids.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: What about teens and adolescents and older kids?
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: So they're gonna obviously understand a lot more developmentally, but that does not mean they should receive adult level informations.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: And teens are gonna ask much more direct questions and challenging questions.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Um, for example, they may want to know who decided this, uh, whether there was cheating.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: That's sort of a go-to for kids, by the way.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: They assume if they haven't seen a lot of conflict in the relationship, oh, somebody must have cheated or there was something scandalous that happened.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: They're gonna want to know whether money is involved or whether there's court.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Um, they may also react with a lot of anger, um, and conversely, a silence.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: Um, and then you may see the full range of teen behaviors that you see, parenting teens, sarcasm, um, you know, outbursts, you may see sadness, or you may see what looks like just indifference, um sort of um uh like a freeze response and and sort of uh a lack of care.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Um again, all of these things are normal reactions to uh something that's that's really disruptive and life-changing for them.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: So um a teen acting like they don't care does not always mean they're fine.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: And this is where I see a lot of teens kind of um fall into the sidelines with families because the parents may be attending to the younger kids who may be more outwardly uh affected or displaying outward behaviors that that make it seem that they're more affected.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Sometimes silence by a teenager is them processing.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Um, similarly, if they're very sarcastic or reactive, that that's evidence of their pain.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: And sometimes, obviously, anger is sort of a side effect of grief.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: So when you're dealing with teens, I would be really more specific about, you know, we respect that you may have strong feelings about this.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: We don't want you to take sides.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: You're allowed to have your own relationship with each parent, and we'll be honest with you in a way that is appropriate, but we're not gonna pull you into the details of the divorce or, you know, the parents' problems.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Um, teenagers need more respect and privacy at times, um, but they still will need that parenting from you.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: So keep checking in with them, don't interrogate them.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: You're really just gonna provide that supportive role like you would for teenagers in any other circumstance.
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: So that does kind of bring me to the next question of what if someone cheated?
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: What do you tell the kids?
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: Because um, so just so that you all know, I I read a lot of the articles on Reddit, on Facebook, and I kind of go and look at situations um and and I try and help where I can as a lawyer.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: I try and give some not necessarily advice, but some feedback.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Um, and I can tell you I read a lot, a lot about the cheating ones.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Um that seems to be something that people enjoy sharing online.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: Um and they will say, I'm going to tell my kids in an age-appropriate way, or I'm going to tell my kids because my kids have the right to know.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: They should know the truth.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Um, and so let's talk about that.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Should you tell the kids if your spouse cheated?
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Oh gosh, I have so many thoughts on this one, Lonnie.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: So, first I want to back, I want to back it up a little bit.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: It's interesting, and I'm just making an observation, that we put so much emphasis on infidelity or cheating when really there could be a number of problems of equal, potentially equal weight and gravity in a relationship that could break a relationship up.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: The infidelity narrative is is interesting socially, I think, because it does, it sort of generates more interest for people around.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: They want to know the details.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: Um, so I'm saying that as a caveat that I don't know that cheating is any more relevant as sort of an advice-giving point as opposed to some other type of rupture in the relationship.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: But as it relates to cheating, no, children do not need to be told about cheating as part of the divorce explanation.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: And I say that because infidelity or cheating or however we're going to frame it is an adult relationship issue.
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: And it may be deeply painful and it may be a major reason the marriage ended, but that does not mean that the child needs to carry that information.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: And the reason is not to protect the parent who cheated, the reason is to protect the child's emotional development and their relationship with both parents when those relationships are safe and appropriate.
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: So I'll just walk through an example.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: When a child is told, and I'll just say, your mother cheated or your father cheated, they're often placed immediately by those statements into what we call a loyalty bind.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: So they may feel pressure to reject one parent in order to provide comfort to the other.
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: The child themselves may also feel ashamed or confused or angry.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Maybe they even feel responsible for managing that adult pain.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: And they might begin to see themselves as the protector of the hurt parent.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: And that's where we see what we call role corruption, where a child becomes adultified or parentified.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: So you've got to look at it as what is a child size, child-size explanation?
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: So it could be: look, we had adult problems in our relationship that we were not able to fix, and that has nothing to do with you.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: And it's you're not, it's not your job to take sides.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Um, so the one caveat here, or I'm sure there's many, but one of the caveats is there may be situations where, especially a teenager already knows or discovers information.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: Um, in that instance, I would not recommend lying.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: Um, and and in fact, I think you and I, Lonnie, have both seen cases where the child becomes the one who discloses the affair.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: They learn about it or they were sort of um uh sort of uh enlisted by the parent to keep this secret, which is Whole other topic, right?
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: That we should probably talk about about kids keeping secrets from parents, but or for parents.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Um, but with that honesty, it still needs guardrails or boundaries.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: So you can say something like Um, there were adult problems, including broken trust.
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Um, I know that may feel you know confusing or upsetting.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: Um, I'm not gonna put adult details on you, but I'll answer your feelings and questions as safely as I can.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was actually gonna bring up the if the kid is the one that finds out and and tells the parent.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Now, they can also find out because there's a fight, because somebody's found out and they're not able to um keep those emotions intact.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: They're they're having the conversations, they're having the arguments, and you know, we all think that, oh, if we go into the bedroom, the kids aren't gonna hear, or if we go into the closet, the kids aren't gonna hear.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: The kids hear.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, they know they the kids hear the fights.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: Um they are I can tell you my son, I could tell him to like take out the trash and he wouldn't hear me.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: But if I'm talking to somebody else and his name is mentioned or something weird is mentioned, he will come shooting out of his room or he would at the time, come shooting out of his room and you know, he heard everything.
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know how that happens, and that selective hearing that I think uh people have.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: But um I think kids often know more than more than clearly they let on a lot of times, but definitely more than they should know.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: And so I guess that's a question.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: If they kind of know and they're asking, and you know they kind of know, um, do you kind do you go, well, what do you know?
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is where it gets to be a real slippery slope because one thing that teenagers are especially skillful at is um is sort of like drawing information out of adults.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: And they they do that through, you know, uh attacking your weak points, you know, and like making you feel bad sometimes.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: And and sometimes it feels like the solution to that is to provide more information.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: But I'd say at the highest level, you don't know everything they know and don't know.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: So don't volunteer information, you know, and and that's where it gets really tricky because you want you don't want to sort of uh invalidate your child when they already know something.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Um, but let's just take an example of like, let's say the the other parent already told the child about the cheating and it was done out of hurt and retaliation, maybe, but um nonetheless the child knows.
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: And you find out about that as the parent who maybe cheated or um or not.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Um, but your your job really is to stay calm because that's gonna be your nervous system is gonna be on fire at that point.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Like, how could you do this?
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Um, you may feel it it's gonna be very hard when you're feeling exposed or betrayed, maybe even misrepresented or furious.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Maybe like the affair was disclosed completely out of context.
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: Um but if one parent has already overshared, the solution is not for the other parent to overshare back.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: So a typical script or narrative that you can use is gosh, I'm so sorry you heard adult information in that way.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: I know that you may be feeling confused or upset.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: The problems in our marriage are adult problems.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Um, and so you don't have to, as the child, judge either parent or take care of either of us or choose sides.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: But does that always fly?
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I have my kids were very um, they they really wanted deeper answers.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: And by the way, the older they got, some of them wanted more answers.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: Um so if they're if they're like, well, I have I deserve to know why.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, then what's your response?
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, the key here is not to deny the child's reality, particularly if they've been, you know, if information was overshared, but you don't want to turn your kid into a witness or a therapist or a judge or an emotional support person.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: So, Lana, you and I were talking offline.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: If a child is like putting more pressure on you and saying, well, is it true?
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Um, you know, and and sort of like fishing for information, the answer is really gonna depend on the kid's age and what they already know, which again, you may not know what they know and don't know.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Um, but even then, the response can be really contained.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: You could say, again, there were adult problems and broken trust.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: I understand you may be having some feelings about that.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: And I'm gonna talk with the adults about the adult details.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Your job again is to be a kid.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: You just want to keep pushing them out of the vortex of the adult issues because they're gonna be very drawn to it.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Both, and this isn't true of just teenagers and kids, it's it's all human beings.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: We're we're meaning-making beings.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: We're wanting to find meaning and understanding and information.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: And so when kids are in a family system that looks one way one day, and suddenly their entire world is upside down and the system is changing, they want to make meaning of that.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: And I think the part that adults forget is that um there's no amount of information that will make sense or alleve alleviate the child's suffering in this.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: Like it's it's not going to feel any better to know one parent cheated or not cheated, and this is why, because it's not it's not going to map onto their lived experience.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: They don't, at the end of the day, whether they realize it or not, they're not going to care about you know, why it happened.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: The bottom line is it happened, and now my family looks very different.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: And so I remind parents all the time in therapy what you're trying to say to them may not accomplish what you think it's going to accomplish.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: You may feel better as the parent because you feel validated, like, yeah, this is why the marriage ended, and let's be angry together.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: But the child's not going to feel any better about their family looking different now.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: No, but I I that again brings me back to the question of if they know, you know, part of it, don't they have the right to know a little bit more or a little bit, you know, if they're asking and they know certain things.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: And and I can tell you, when I see it on Reddit and I see it on Facebook and I see the people putting their videos out there and their comments out there, they're gonna tell the kids.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: They're gonna do it.
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're gonna they're gonna do it, they have the right to know.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Um, that's that's what they all say.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Um, and so I guess if one parent has talked about it, then you know, I think they feel like it's fair game to just sort of vomit the other reasons or or what's going on.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Um, so what are your thoughts about that?
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, I totally get both through therapy and personal experience and and just living as a human being, why that feels so unfair.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: You know, if the other, if the other parent is talking about it or the child has information and you are the aggrieved one, why it feels unfair not to share.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: So the parent who was hurt may feel like, why do I have to protect the person who caused all this in your mind?
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: That's your narrative, right?
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: The other person caused this.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: The goal is not to protect the other adult from consequences, it's to protect the child from adult level emotional burdens.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: So children should not be handed the full story of a marriage.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: They obviously shouldn't be told about sexual details, affairs, finances, private betrayals.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: And then as we get into legal issues, court strategies, legal accusations.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Um, the child's relationship with each parent is not the same thing as the marital relationship.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: And I think this is the part that parents who feel really hurt often experience.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: So a person may have had a harmful spouse, and it's also true they still may be an important parent.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: And, you know, this of course is setting aside any safety issues, abuse, substance issues, uh, child abuse, things that may require professional guidance and, you know, more context.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: But let's just say in general, a marital betrayal should not become the child's emotional assignment.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: So I would ask you or anybody asking that question is to challenge yourself.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Am I sharing this because my child needs it for safety or stability, or because I need my child to understand my pain?
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: So if it is about the adult's pain, that should be taken to another adult, not your child's, um, not your child to become sort of your confidant and and support at that point.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, so I I get what you're saying.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Um and I I think the challenging yourself is probably the harder part of that on on kind of looking deep because I do think that there are people who want to get revenge, and I'm gonna just say that because you can read it all over the internet, the revenge that people have gotten.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's some amazing stories out there that you and I will end up doing, I'm sure, podcasts on.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: But um, so I know you're not supposed to do, you know, certainly talking to the kids about it, but let's kind of talk about the the revenge or or the reason that they might do it.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: And it may not be as much revenge, but as much as um, you know, it's all their fault.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: It's they broke this up, they hurt me.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: I want them to hurt.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: And and I guess now that I'm saying that out loud, it's really sort of using the kid as a tool, I guess, to make the other parent hurt, which is never good.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: But can you talk a little bit about that?
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think it's important to ground this in the understanding that, you know, like emotions are different than behaviors, and we want to normalize the emotional experience, the feelings.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean it has to lead to a behavior that is inappropriate.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: But revenge is one of those very normal feelings and urges, especially after a betrayal.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Your mind may be saying, Hey, this person hurt me.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: They should feel what I feel.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: Um, but revenge is almost always situated in a way that keeps the person tied to the injury that they felt.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Um, so in divorce, revenge can look like oversharing with kids or posting online.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: We see a lot of that, Lonnie, you just referenced it, or trying to expose the other parent, you know, sort of disclose what happened so everybody else will be just as angry as you are, um, withholding access to the children, which would become a really problematic behavior.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: Um, it might look like sending cruel or inappropriate messages, and that could get you into trouble too, especially if that comes before a court and you're trying to defend yourself and you're acting just as bad as the betrayal.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: Um, or you're actively trying to damage the other parents' relationships.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: And that could be not just with the kids, but with other family members.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Um, we've had cases where, you know, employers are contacted to say, like, look at how terrible this person is, and how could you work with them?
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Um, so it can get really uh it can really metastasize into all parts of the person's life.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: And the problem is that revenge may feel powerful for a few moments, um, but it usually creates more pain later.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: And it can definitely harm children.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Um, we know it increases conflict.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: It damages your credibility too, by the way, if you're running around on this sort of smear campaign while at the same time saying this parent is awful and shouldn't be around my kids.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: A judge or an evaluator is gonna look at your behavior with scrutiny.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Um, and you know, at the end of the day, it's gonna make your own healing and processing much slower.
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: So I would tell parents, you know, anger is information.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: It's not instruction on how to behave.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: Your anger may be telling you that something mattered or that something was violated or something that maybe even needs a boundary, but anger should not be allowed to drive parenting decisions.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: So, a better question for parents might be what action protects my future?
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Sometimes that action is documentation.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: Maybe you need to document what happened because it's not just relevant in the perhaps dissolution of your relationship, but it might be relevant to document a pattern, you know, of behavior that may map onto some other concern.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: Um, sometimes uh something that's protective is therapy.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's legal advice, right?
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: It's it's sort of acting on information you have in a legal sense.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Um sometimes it's not sending a message that you want to send and sitting on it.
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: And most importantly, sometimes and all the time, it's letting your children love both parents, even while you're grieving what happened in the marriage.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: So I do want to touch on a couple of things you've said that I think is really important.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: It's not uncommon for a judge to for someone to bring to attention to the judge that you're writing things on social media or Reddit or sort of you know, share oversharing maybe your information.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: And don't do that.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: I mean, that really can affect your case because they're going to be concerned about at some point your child reading it.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: And I understand that your kid might be five, but the internet's forever.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: Um and and eventually your child might be looking at things.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: And so the court's not gonna like that.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: The court's not gonna like you saying negative things about your ex to the child, um, because then you've got all the alienation issues.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: And you know, courts are really cracking down on that right now, and they're actually switching custody, which is um it's interesting, it's it's scary for clients because sometimes they are just getting something off their chest, and you've got to figure out a different way to do that.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: You've got to keep your kids out of it, start journaling, take care of yourself.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: I'm sure that there are things that you loved to do before you met this person, go do that again.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Um, assuming it's not anything bad.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: Um take care of yourself, give yourself, you know, your use self-care once, twice, three, four times a week.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: Journal, see a counselor, whatever.
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: But when you start putting out that negative stuff to the internet and or through to and through your children to the other parent, that's gonna be problematic for your case.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, I I like how you put it that that anger's an emotion and not your roadmap.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: It's it don't let anger be your thing.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: Don't let anger be what you're reacting to.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Um you need to figure out for the sake of your case and your, I'm assuming what you want for legal decision making and parenting time.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: You've got to rely not on emotions, but on logic and best interest of the kid.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: So I just want to get that out there because I think it's it's really important that people get reactive in their divorces.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: And I that's just not what you want to do.
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: You want to make decisions logically off the best interest and not off your anger, and not and certainly don't go post it online.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: Um and by the way, do not post yourself hitting your spouse when you find out, because that's domestic violence.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I don't care if you're the woman hitting a man, it's domestic violence, and it can be used against you in court, and you literally, with Arizona's new laws, could lose rights to your kids.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: So don't post that stuff.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: I'm seeing that and I'm just shocked.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: I don't care if you're the woman, it's not funny.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Don't hit your ex.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: It can screw up your case.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: So that being said, go on.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Well, Amani, you mentioned, you know, you know, posting online and making disparaging comments and and changing and shifting legislation in Arizona, but but just speaking more generally, um, you know, I I hear this a lot either through the court litigation process or in evaluations of I have a right to free speech.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: And and you're not wrong, right?
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Like you can say whatever you want to say.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: It's not so much about an argument about what you have the right to do, it's about what is the impact to your children.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: And so I think some people aren't just motivated by anger.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: There's also another motivating factor, which might be this notion of people should know the truth, whether it's your kids or the community or somebody, because you want that validation yourself.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: So um I understand that argument.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: Um, I know you don't want to kind of be uh sort of complicit in some sort of false narrative.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: So a parent may say to me, I don't want my child believing a lie.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: I don't want the other parent to rewrite history, I don't want to look like the bad guy when I was the one that was hurt.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: And that is sort of fear-based and it's very real.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Um, but children, again, don't need to know the full truth to be protected.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: They need developmentally appropriate truth.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: So there's a difference between secrecy and boundaries.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Secrecy says we cannot talk about anything.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: A boundary, on the other hand, says this is an adult issue, and I will answer you in a way that protects you.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: So a child doesn't need to know every adult fact to know that they are loved, that they're safe, and that they're not responsible for the breakdown of the marital relationship.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: Um, and a child does not need to be recruited into the adult story in order for the truth to matter.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Um, if a child has been told false or blaming information, the parent can respond without counterattacking.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: That can look like, hey, I know you may have heard different things.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Adults sometimes see things differently.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: What I want you to know is the divorce is not your fault.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: You are loved and you do not have to choose sides.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: And so it's sort of like a mantra you have to keep repeating because, especially for teens, they may still push back on that and they will if if they're in the adolescent or teen years.
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: So you may need to be slightly more directive and boundaried with teenagers, where you might say something like, you know, there were adult problems and some of them involved broken trust.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I know you want more details, but I'm not going to put the adult relationship on you.
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: And that protects uh truth without turning the child into like a jury and judge.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Now let's talk about kind of move on past the anger and really to the sadness and hurt and depression and what that can look like.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: I I am of the belief, and I don't know how wrong this is, that you should let your kids see you cry to some extent.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like you can teach them that things can be sad and that you get through it.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: And that's okay to be sad.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: And you know, not that you want to be depressed or, you know, make it like there's this video of um, I think Kelly Clarkson did a great video on this where the mom made Kelly like the adult in the in the situation.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: And so I'm not saying, I'm not saying disappear in your room and sob and sob and sob.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: But I'm also saying I think you've got to teach your kids that you can be sad about things, and that's okay.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: You don't get reactive to them, you can cry, you pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and you sort of move forward.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: So talk to me about that because I don't I don't know if you're in agreement with that, but I know I always thought that I I think I didn't see enough of my mom doing that.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: That it was like you're just supposed to suck it up, you know.
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and and I don't disagree with you, Lonnie.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: I think we're kind of on the same page on this.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Like so many things, it's about set and setting and you know, amount.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: So for parents, the goal is not to hide all sadness from children.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: You know, kids can see that adults have feelings, they just shouldn't feel responsible for fixing those feelings.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: So you know, a parent can say, I feel really sad today, but I'm okay and I have adults helping me.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: That's very different than saying something like, You're all I have left, or I don't know what I would do without you.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Um, it just puts too much emotional weight on the kid.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Um, but you know, the sadness is real.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, when people are going through a separation and divorce, you may feel rejected, replaced, ashamed, uh, especially if there was like an infidelity.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Um, you may feel like your whole family story has been rewritten.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: So these parents might be crying often.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: They may be losing sleep.
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: They may lose their appetite.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: They may even feel like they can't function.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: So, you know, there's it's sort of draw it put it's like a spectrum, right?
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: If you're like pushing into the area where you can't function, you're not sleeping for several nights, you're feeling hopeless, you're having panic symptoms, maybe you're using substances to cope.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Um, or, you know, more seriously, you're having thoughts of self-harm.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: That's really a sign you need to seek professional support and quickly.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: And so there's a county 24-hour uh crisis line.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: You can dial, I think it's 988 from any phone now, Lonnie.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: You can get crisis supports, but you don't want your kids to be in a place of caring for you when you're not in a functional parenting role.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: Recognizing where that line is.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: That doesn't mean you have to hide feelings, but you need to sort of assess for yourself or lean on other uh individuals in your life to point out when it's it's beyond just sort of showing your kids normal emotions and reactions.
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: You might be depressed, you might be in a difficult emotional state that needs to be addressed professionally.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, and I think that can be difficult.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: I think that might be a a bit of a border because you don't, I think you do want to share that with your kids, but you don't want it to um consume them or you.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: So what about the argument that, and this is what I hear so much, Robert, so much, they should know the truth.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: So, what about that argument?
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: And not not with the sadness, but with the whole if somebody's done something that's violated your trust, and I'm not even saying it has to be cheating, there are there's well, and maybe that's a question we can get into too.
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: What about domestic violence?
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Like should the kids know that?
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Like, should they know the truth?
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: And um, I know we were mostly talking about the cheating, but there's also domestic violence and substance abuse that I think comes up, and I know I'm springing this on you as I usually do in some podcasts, but I do think that there is an issue with the domestic violence and um and and that's gonna be a whole nother topic where we're gonna talk about domestic violence and how it affects parenting.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: But do you tell the kids about that?
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: And does it matter the level or you know, specifically what happened?
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, you come home with a black eye?
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: Are you gonna tell the kids that dad did that or mom did that or whatever?
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: So should they know the truth and at what point like between substance abuse, cheating, and domestic violence?
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Because I think those are probably the top three that people like to spring on their kids.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: Um what do you think about that?
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would I would probably classify those as all special cases.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Um, not that they're not common, but just that they require different handling.
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: So domestic violence, as you mentioned, that's going to be a whole black box to open up because in intimate partner violence and domestic violence dynamics, it's rarely a uh sort of an isolated and contained problem.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: So in most families where domestic violence exists, even though the the majority of the um the violence and abuse occurs uh towards one spouse or between the two spouses, it's rare that the children don't have some sort of exposure, either directly or indirectly.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: So I say that because it references back to something we talked about earlier, which is sometimes kids are going to have information already.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: So the same convention applies.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: You don't have to answer every question, and we have to draw that distinction between secrecy and boundaries.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: So it's again, the secrecy part is we can't talk about anything versus a boundary of this is an adult issue, and I'll answer you in a way that protects you.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: So, in a DV dynamic, if the child or children have been exposed to domestic violence, I think it's very appropriate to educate them about safety and boundaries and what's okay and not okay.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: It is not okay that uh parent A hit parent B, right?
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Or did something terrible or name called or any sort of um behavior along the spectrum of domestic violence.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: I think those things need to be confronted directly because you don't want to normalize an unhealthy behavior for children.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: And furthermore, the children often need to be part of or at least considered in safety planning if one spouse is escaping a domestic violent relationship.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Um, so that's that's one scenario.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: Substance abuse, I would say, is a whole other special case, right?
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Because what child has not been exposed to some degree to a parent's uh substance use behavior in a way that has not impacted them, whether it's direct or indirect.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Um so again, they're gonna already have some knowledge and understanding of what's happening.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: They may not have a full, complete understanding of why things are happening the way they are, but they're certainly feeling the impact.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: And that is where either professionally guided uh sort of education to the family would be really helpful in that scenario, or a non-substance abusing parent in that same household explaining, you know, mommy or daddy or the other parent is um suffering from some problems, um, using sort of the the metaphor that alcohol or drug addiction is a disease, um, and you can relate it to them in that way, but we're here to support the other parent.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: And you you normalize the experience of leaning in and supporting another parent while at the same time creating healthy boundaries.
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: Like it's not okay for mommy or daddy to be passed out drunk in front of you.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: So we're gonna go somewhere else, or we're gonna have mommy or daddy go somewhere else right now.
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: Um and I guess if you're keeping a child away from that parent for safety concerns, uh they're probably gonna need some amount of information for that anyway, too, right?
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: So, for example, if you're fleeing domestic violence, um, you know, hopefully you found a safe haven, either it's a domestic violence shelter or a trusted secure family member.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: There's gonna have to be some level of discussion with the kids about why why you're leaving.
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, this gets very nuanced because, you know, we've had cases where somebody alleges domestic violence and it's not true, and it's actually a parent fleeing with the child in some sort of alienation dynamic, right?
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: And so there's there's all sorts of behaviors that have to be considered.
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: But if you are a victim escaping a domestic violent relationship, again, your kids have already been exposed to it, most likely.
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: You may think you've done a good job hiding, you know, uh injuries or you know, yelling or abuse, but most likely your kids are gonna have some awareness.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: And you have to explain why you're in this new environment.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I, you know, I I've had clients, and and this is where clearly the kids need to get into counseling.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Um, and one specific client I can think about is where um my client was the woman, husband had abused her.
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: Um and later when the kid got mad, he would sort of demonstrate dad's behaviors or or you know what I mean, like show he would get physically aggressive, angry, mean.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: Um and so what do you do with like that when you're trying to sort of work that out with you know, you're in a divorce with someone and the kid's starting to show the signs that dad was doing in in really abusive ways?
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, you've gotta say that's you've clearly gotta say that's not all right, right?
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: Which you just said, but do you just get that kid in counseling?
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, what do you what do you do if that's if that's starting?
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're seeing that and and it's accessible to you, the the best pathway would be to get some professional support.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: Because again, you may have had a child that has witnessed and maybe modeling aggressive behavior, inappropriate behavior.
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: If you are the parent who has also been victimized, um, that's gonna also be very triggering for you to have your child behave in the same ways that your partner or spouse behaved, right?
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: And so that's gonna also have a relational dynamic between you and the child.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: So I think that's beyond just sort of muscling your way through it.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: I think if you can get professional support and guidance, that's gonna be your best bet.
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: And that child is probably gonna need uh some counseling and therapeutic supports to um, you know, address their behavioral issues, but also the grief and trauma of perhaps being exposed to domestic violence, as well as the grief over perhaps uh an emerging new dynamic in their family.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: All right, so now I kind of want jump ship into the other direction.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: Um, and I want to go to let's talk about the other side.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Let's say this was a weird one-off thing.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: The the person is super apologetic, they've cheated, they've done something bad.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Um and I I want you to talk to that person about what they can do um to sort of help fix the trust.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Now, I want to say, as a lawyer, um if my client has been cheated on and the person is super apologetic, now's the time to try and enter into an agreement because they're gonna give you stuff.
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: So I know that's not the nicest thing to say, but as a lawyer, I'm gonna just tell you sometimes people feel so bad that they um are willing to give up stuff more easily.
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: So just something to think about.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: Now Robert's gonna tell you the the mental health part of that.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: But I just want to say that sometimes, you know, when somebody's feeling guilty, they um, you know, give up the farm.
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: So um Robert, what do you what do you do?
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: Like when a person, when a person is feeling very guilty about this, that's not who they meant to be, that's not, you know, and they're they're they're just like, what can I do to fix this?
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: What can I do?
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: Fine, I'll give you everything.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: But what can they do to help fix that trust?
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: Um, and and you and I talked really about fix the trust and rebuild the co-parenting.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Um but also just and not save the marriage or save the relationship, but really do as little damage to that person as possible, if that makes sense.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to answer that.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Although, as you know, I can't leave your last comment alone.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: I have to offer my uh psychologist's perspective on your legal strategy, Lonnie.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: I'll just offer that, you know, even if you uh may take advantage of somebody who's in an emotional, emotionally vulnerable state, there may be a ripple effect to that.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: And it may not be that they can ever recapture, you know, some sort of equitable division because it's already a legal agreement, but there may be resentment and that can ripple into some unhelpful co-parenting behavior.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: So just another perspective on that.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: But for a parent who has cheated or um created a rupture in the relationship because of some sort of uh lie or distrustful behavior, they have an important opportunity to reduce the harm, even if the marriage can't be repaired.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: And we're assuming in this scenario the marriage is over, there's no reconciliation.
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: But how do we do some damage control?
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: So, first, they need to be able to tolerate accountability without putting the child or pulling the child into it.
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: That means they should not tell the child, hey, your other parent is poisoning you against me, or this is between adults, but your mom and dad will not forgive me.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: Um, they should not ask the child to reassure them or take their side.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: That would be a mistake.
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: Um, second, they should not minimize the child's feelings.
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: So if a child knows or senses what happened, the parent can say something like, Hey, I know there's been adult problems and I know this has hurt people.
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: You're definitely allowed to have your feelings, but you don't have to take care of me.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: So again, we're giving the child permission not to be in a caretaking role.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: We don't want kids taking care of adults.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: Adults need to take care of kids.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: Um, the third piece of advice I give is that they should support the child's relationship with the other parent.
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: And that means saying your other parent loves you, even if the co-parenting relationship is painful.
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: Um, they should also be really predictable.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: Um, trust as a co-parent is rebuilt through behavior, not through words or speeches.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: So show up on time, follow the schedule, keep promises, keep your communication respectful.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: Um, definitely don't introduce new partners too quickly, right?
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: That's going to inflame the situation, especially if the partner you're bringing into the picture is the one that might have been a factor in the marriage breaking up.
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: Um, and notice I didn't say because they caused the marriage to break up, right?
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: That's not, it's not the outsider's responsibility that they broke up a marriage.
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: It's it's a relationship dynamic.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: Um, definitely do not make the child keep secrets and do not use the child as a messenger.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: Um, if repair is appropriate, keep it child size.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: Um, you could say something like, I made adult choices that hurt the family, and I'm working on being responsible.
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: This is not your fault, and you don't have to fix it.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, and how do they build um rebuild trust with that co-parent and and in co-parenting?
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: And I I know um I've had some clients, you know, it's once you lied, you're a liar.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: And you're a liar, liar, liar.
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: And if you say something, you're still a liar.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: And I know that's that's sort of how they feel with the co-parenting.
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: And then if somebody doesn't like pick up the kid on time, now they're a liar who is not um care caring about the kids appropriately.
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: So how do you really kind of rebuild trust in in a different, it's now a different relationship, right?
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: It's a co-parenting relationship.
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is such a fantastic question.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: And the parent that that sort of views all the parents, the other parents' behavior through this negative lens is obviously still grieving and feeling hurt, and maybe anger and resentment and frustration are all coming up.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: But as you said, um, co-parenting relationship, particularly co-parenting trust, is very different from marital trust.
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: Um, and we know the marriage may not recover, but the parenting relationship still needs structure and reliability.
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: Um, of course, if that's safe and possible, but that trust is rebuilt through consistency.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: So be where you say you will be and follow the parenting plan.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: Don't do cancel, uh, don't do repeated cancellations, don't lie or cover up around logistics.
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: Again, don't ask the children to hide information.
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: Don't use a new relationship to provoke the other parent.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: Um, one way I see that happening, and I'm sure you do too, Lonnie, is having the new partner involved in co-parenting communications, copying them on messages or having that partner reach out to the co-parent.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: Um, those are all mistakes.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: Um, at least at first, unless you have that kind of relationship as co-parents, right?
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: But definitely a podcast that we should do again.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I my allergies are so bad.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: I think I've got like goop just like I just I don't know what's going on with my eyes right now, but they feel like there's glass shards in them.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: Oh no.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: So I know they're probably like super red, but they're just I'm just I I took an allergy pill, but I don't think it's working today.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: I think I do think it's a bad ozone day today, though, too.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: So yeah.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: Well I've got like Phoenix.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just having I'm I think I'm having a bit of an allergy attack, and I'm not sure why, but I got all kinds of stuff going on, so I apologize if I keep, you know.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: It's still working.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: I think they're here for the content.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, good.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: Um, all right, so one of the the things that you just said, which of course is a podcast on its own, is bringing in the partner into the relationship to copeuring.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: That's definitely a whole different podcast.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: I have a billion questions for you on that one because I did have that happen in mind uh in my divorce.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: It was it was very interesting.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: Um but there are times I think that that's not necessarily a bad thing.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: If, like you said, if it's if the person is agreeable to that, like maybe one the step parent is less angry again, different podcasts.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about tips for um keeping the kids sort of out of everything, um, and letting the kids love both parents.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: Like what are some just what are some tools that that and and part of this might be like when you're feeling hurt and left out as a parent um of this joy that your kids having at another parent's house?
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: Or, you know, I mean, like, how do you let them what are some tips for the parents to like let the kids enjoy what they're doing, letting them love the other parent, even though you've got this frustration with them?
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: What are some tips for them?
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Well, I heard two separate questions in there.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: I'll start with the more recent one around you're seeing your co-parent do really enjoyable things that the kids are enjoying with that parent, right?
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: And that's bringing up feelings for you.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: Um, that's a really good time again to ask yourself is this a me issue or a kid issue or both?
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: And so if your children are enjoying an activity, why deprive them of that for any reason?
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: Right?
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: Assuming it's safe, right, and healthy and there's no other concerns, like they're being exposed to inappropriate stuff.
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: Um, but if the kids aren't complaining, that's what you want for them.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: And and it's hard to find joy in that.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: It's hard when you feel hurt or grieved.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: And um, a big trigger is gonna be when you see, again, if it's a third party that came into the marriage uh that that disrupted the marriage, and that person remains in your co-parents' life and then potentially your children's lives, that is a tough pill to swallow.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: And so there's a lot of emotions.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: I think we should probably have a whole separate conversation on that.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: But if we're talking really high-level things for kind of takeaways about how you manage talking to the kids and keeping them out of the conflict, it's really not so much skills, but sort of like laws that you need to sort of like make in your mind, like cognitive like um laws, right?
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: So the first law or rule is kids are not messengers, they're not spies, they're not therapists, they're not judges, and they're not your emotional support people.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: So make that a rule in your mind.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: And and when you I like that.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: I'm writing it down.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: And when you have when you have a concern or a dilemma, run it through that rule first.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: You know, like am I making them a messenger?
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: Am I asking them to spy?
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: Am I asking them to be my therapist?
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: Am I asking them to judge a situation?
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Those would be uh red flags for you.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Um, the second and related rule or law would be keep adult conversations away from the kids.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: Phone calls, FaceTime, texts uh that the kids can see, conversations with grandparents, emotional venting in the car while you're driving places.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: You know, it's gonna come out in unexpected ways.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: Catch yourself before you're doing those things.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: By the way, my sidebar on this, Lonnie, is that don't assume when you're having a conversation with your trusted person with the door closed and you alluded to this, or you're on the phone with your parent, you know, like let's say you're talking to your mom or dad about your frustrations.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many kids I interview that tell me they overhear those conversations.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: So even if you think you're being discreet, you have little ears around you all the time.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, but what give me a tip, Robert?
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: Give me a like, like let's say I'm just struggling with this so much that my kids are at my old house with my ex who's got someone else there.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 2: What's a tip for me?
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: Like to get me through it?
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: What is a tip for the parent who is struggling um with those difficult times?
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Like what is it?
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, like I talk to people about like self care saturated and um and things like that.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: And I I mean I think.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: Like, especially by the way, um doing it a way that the kids don't think that that they're hurting you by sharing all the information, like how much fun they had, you know what I mean?
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: Like, what do you do for you that can help you get through that?
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: Uh, well, I mean, the frustrating answer for people is probably going to be time, you know, like you definitely need time to grieve and process, but you don't want to use that time um ineffectively.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: So whether that's utilizing counseling resources or trusted friends, processing your feelings and moving through your grief will absolutely help over time uh offset some of the sting that you're gonna feel when you encounter those types of problems or when you see those things, um, it does get better.
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: It does take time.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: If you stay stuck in repeating a narrative about the divorce or the marriage or the relationship, you are reinforcing those neural pathways in your brain to stay stuck.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: And so if you're if you're really ruminating and thinking on over and over about these narratives, that's going to be a red flag.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: So you may need therapeutic support to help you with that.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: But some practical skills, I don't know, Lonnie, scream into a pillow.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: Does that does that help people?
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think also keeping busy, right?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: I mean keeping busy, doing things that you love.
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: Doing right, the the doing things that you love.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: I remember my kids used to think that um they would, they thought I stayed home and pined for them, um, which I thought was very interesting.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: Um, they're like, Do you miss us so much?
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: Like when we're gone.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, Well, I mean, I miss you, but like I go see, you know, PG 13 movies, rated R movies.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: Like I go do adult things when I don't have you, which is, you know, listen, if you're gonna have 50-50 parenting time, you may as well enjoy the 50% of time that that they're not with you.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 2: Um, and they just they were shocked.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: They were shocked that I had fun things, that I went away for a weekend, that I did, you know, things that I enjoyed doing.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: Um, I went out karaoke singing this week, you know, like they're because they would come home and be like, Well, what did you do?
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: And I didn't want them to think that I was ever home pining for them because I really wanted them to enjoy their time with their dad.
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: Um, but they were a little offended, it almost seemed like that I just that I did all these fun things without them, too.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: So um, go do something fun that you love.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Go yeah, start a new hobby.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: I actually love that piece of advice too, because much better for your kids to be annoyed or resentful that you're having a good time than feeling responsible for taking care of poor mom who's right, you know, moping around and so sad.
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: What they're gonna do instead of the developmentally appropriate thing, which is to express um excitement about things they did in the other household, is they're going to immediately lean into a caretaking role.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: They're gonna minimize the fun that they had and sort of downplay it, which they may be doing on the surface, but it might also be psychologically uh impacting them too.
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: And they may in fact start believing that it's not as fun, right?
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: So you're depriving them of more opportunities.
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: And I don't mean to say fun, like the other household is just all fun and games, but something that they had enjoyed or appreciated or found meaning in, they're going to minimize that for you and for themselves, and they're not gonna reap the same sort of benefits.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: So you don't want them to sort of lean into caretaking.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: So as hard as it is, go sort of fake it until you make it.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: Go do the things that are enjoyable, move on with your life.
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: We've talked about this in other podcasts.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: Pick up an old hobby that you had set aside because you were busy parenting or building a career, or things that you kind of put again on the, you know, on the back burner that now you may have more time and space to do those things.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: Show your kids that you're living your life because your other parent may be doing that just fine.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: And you're role modeling to your kids that you can move through an adverse event in a healthy way.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: I and I think it I do think it helped because I do think that they thought I was just like so lonely and so sad without them.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: Because I did enjoy them.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: I do still enjoy them, but I did enjoy them so much when I did have them that I think they couldn't understand that when they were gone, what would I do with what could I possibly do with all that extra time if they weren't there for me to hang out, you know, for me to hang out with them.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: Like they just they couldn't comprehend it.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: And by the way, I think doing that honestly helped them feel comfortable talking to me about what they did on the weekend, which was great because not because I wanted to know what they were doing there, but I wanted them to be able to share their joy with me.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: Um, and I feel like they were really able to do that because they didn't they knew I was out having fun too.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: So it wasn't like I was home pining for them and they felt like they had to um not be able to say something to me.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: So, all right, well, um, do you have any closing thoughts for um you know, for kind of helping people through this, these difficult conversations?
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so keep in mind the divorce conversation is not any one conversation, it's the beginning of many.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: Um, children can process divorce in layers or stages, and they may ask different questions at age five versus 10, 15, and even into adulthood.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: Parents do not need to say everything perfectly fine the first time.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: Um, what matters most is that children hear again these these mantras.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: You are loved, it is not your fault, you will be taken care of, you don't need to choose sides, and you can ask questions.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: So one calm, honest, child-sized convo conversation can become the beginning of many healing conversations that might come down the road.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: All right, well, to everybody watching, we do hope that you um, you know, you found these conversations or this information um helpful uh for yourself, for your children during, you know, some really incredibly difficult times.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: And if you found today's episode helpful in any way, we really appreciate you um sharing our podcasts and signing up for our social media and of course downloading the split up app if it's you know if it's something that could be helpful to you for you or a friend.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks, Lonnie, for starting the conversation.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: This is such an important topic, and we hope it was helpful.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: All right, thank you.