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Leaving Your Family Company · The Twenty One Clear Podcast

0:05
Hey there.
0:06
Welcome to the 21 Clear Podcast.
0:09
I'm your host, Adam Hatcher, the founder of 21 Clear, and
0:13
on the podcast we talk about.
0:15
Anything to help you chaos proof your family company today.
0:22
Today we go there.
0:24
I want to share an excerpt with you from a webinar that
0:29
I was invited to be a part of.
0:31
Uh, Kennesaw State University has a family enterprise center.
0:37
I was invited to be part of a virtual panel to talk about the experience
0:42
of leaving your family company.
0:44
I was on there with Jacqueline Jensen and Leslie ub, both of whom
0:49
left their family's com, their family's company, mid-career, to go
0:55
pursue other things in the same way.
0:57
I did 13 years in my family company and then started 21 Clear, a family
1:02
business consulting firm, and we answer.
1:05
Three questions in this excerpt and several others in the longer version.
1:11
Uh, but what you're gonna hear on the podcast, Stephanie Davis from the Family
1:16
Enterprise Center, asks me was the process of leaving acute or gradual.
1:22
So that's where we're gonna pick up where Stephanie's asked me that.
1:26
And then you're gonna get to listen through all three of us, me, Jacqueline,
1:30
and Leslie being asked, what was the emotional impact of leaving.
1:36
Then if you could do it over again, what would you change or what would
1:42
you tell yourself or somebody else?
1:45
That's what you're gonna get in this podcast, the three of us talking
1:49
about those three things, gradual or acute emotional impact and do over.
1:55
I hope you enjoy this.
1:57
I had a lot of fun in the conversation and not a lot of people go here.
2:01
So I hope it is helpful to you in your family company journey.
2:06
it's gradual.
2:07
It's interesting.
2:07
Stephanie.
2:08
Um, hey, I, for everybody who's logged in, uh, on behalf of, uh, Leslie,
2:14
me and Jacqueline, thank y'all.
2:15
Um, I have, see I.
2:18
I joined the family company in 2010.
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I've been doing family business consulting about two, three years now.
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This is the first time I've seen people openly willing to log into something like
2:27
this and talk and also to participate.
2:30
And if y'all have read the chat along the way, we have people
2:34
that are onboarding family.
2:35
We have people who are thinking of leaving.
2:37
We have people who are thinking of leaving because their life has to change
2:41
or they need to go start something else.
2:43
I bet you somebody has someone they need to off.
2:45
I think someone had someone they need to offboard.
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Um, here's the thing, Stephanie, I wish someone had told
2:52
me when I started in 2010.
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Alright, so 13 years in my own family's company, three generations.
3:02
Y'all know that when you work in a family business, you
3:04
get this when magical ticket.
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And that magical ticket lets you talk to any other person who
3:11
works with their family, no matter their revenue compared to yours.
3:15
And you get to have really honest conversations.
3:19
I've gotten to sit with people who are doing a few million top line to
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people valued at $30 billion plus, and like me, Leslie, and Jacqueline,
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it's across industries as well.
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Stephanie, I wish the day I had started, somebody said to me, you will
3:37
meet families from all over one day.
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Adam, you will end up doing this work and you will work with families and you will
3:42
study families of all different spectrums.
3:44
And there's one thing guaranteed when you work with your family, if one day
3:48
you choose to work with your family, I promise you in all my experience,
3:51
research and knowledge, one day you're not going to like, you're going to leave.
3:59
It's gonna be over one day.
4:01
And Jacqueline and Leslie, I was listening to y'all and it's interesting that we can
4:05
get lost in that because it's your family.
4:10
I mean, I grew up around the business and you start to think that it's, you
4:14
can start to think it's inevitable or there are no options outside of it.
4:18
I still remember sitting with a second gen.
4:22
Who they were trying to earn their way to the top job and they felt that their
4:28
mother was just never gonna retire.
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And I remember they said to me, yeah, but Adam, I'm trapped.
4:35
I can't go anywhere.
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And, and two things happened at once for me.
4:40
One, I knew what they meant.
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I know it can feel inevitable.
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When it is your family's company, depe, particularly, depending on
4:48
how much you've invested in it.
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But also I had to say to him, no you're not.
4:54
Mm-hmm.
4:54
It's a job, like it's way heavier than that.
4:58
Right.
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But it is a job.
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And what's interesting, what was interesting for me,
5:05
my, when I was in law school, uh, and as happens in family companies.
5:13
This happened out of nowhere.
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My father sent a letter to me, my brother who was in college, and my sister who was
5:20
in high school, and it said, I don't know if the Lord's ever gonna call you to come
5:25
to the family company, if you're ever gonna feel it's a calling on your life.
5:29
But if so, these five things need to be true before you can join the company.
5:36
For him.
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Now, this won't be everybody else's list, and hopefully this is helpful as, um,
5:40
somebody said that they were onboarding a family member, and this is specific.
5:46
To the company and where it was at the time, and the type
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of clients in the industry.
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But he said, you need to graduate from high school, college, graduate degree,
5:54
degree, work somewhere else, get a promotion, and your personal beliefs
6:00
have to be aligned with Christian values.
6:03
'cause a lot of the core values of our family's company line
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up with Judeo-Christian values.
6:09
And so what he was trying to do was make sure that you
6:12
were on an upward trajectory.
6:13
And you aligned with the core values of the business.
6:17
That's got nothing to do with, are you a good lawyer qualified to
6:21
analyze a corporate risk profile?
6:23
Right?
6:23
So it was family hiring criteria before joining.
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But what was Stephanie, what was important about that to leaving is it
6:30
made, joining a gradual process and thus it did two things and I didn't realize
6:37
the wisdom in it when it happened.
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I always knew I and he, I talked about this when I was there.
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He said, Adam, I graduated from the University of Georgia on Friday
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and I went to work on Monday.
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The only person who ever gave me a raise was my dad, and sometimes
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I had to buy my raise from him.
6:58
He said, I want, he said, I want you, I want your siblings.
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I want any other family members to know that you have value beyond my eyes and
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you have options outside of this company.
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And when I was leaving, I actually went back ahead of this and I looked over,
7:16
I still have my script from the call with, we had about 20 senior leaders on
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a Zoom call, uh, when we announced it.
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And I still have my script from it.
7:25
Something I would recommend to anybody leaving write it down.
7:30
And I told them something.
7:31
I don't think I'd ever told them that because it was never guaranteed
7:37
I would join every single year.
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I asked myself and my wife and I asked ourselves, is this
7:43
where we're supposed to be?
7:45
It helped to differentiate from the company.
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It is.
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So you're gonna ask us later about identity.
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Stephanie, any smart thing?
7:54
It sounds like I say I promise it just made it a little less hard.
8:00
Like you can do everything you can to keep your identity separate from
8:03
the company and you're still gonna over identify it in the ways other
8:05
people struggle to understand.
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Um, but because it was not inevitable to join, I also always was refreshing
8:14
the decision, is this the right thing?
8:17
My father and I were actually really open about that in annual reviews.
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I shared that with the senior leaders on the way out.
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It may seem like it's inevitable for a third gen to keep going, but it was a
8:31
gradual process and we, one thing for y'all that helped it to unfold in a chaos
8:40
proof fashion, that's, I wrote a book called The Chaos Proof Family Business
8:45
is These conversations evolve through family meetings and Leslie Jacqueline,
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I don't know if y'all had those.
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But I've probably got 20 years of family meetings, so not company meetings, not
8:56
you know, family vacation meetings, but amongst those of us who worked in
9:00
the business and the family members who own the business, we did 'em
9:03
manually and then we did 'EM quarterly.
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And then there are times where we've done 'em more often.
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Like this question, Stephanie, is something we were forced to answer
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to each other in those meetings.
9:15
As family member.
9:15
I think that's wonderful.
9:16
That's, yeah, I think that's great.
9:18
It was, yeah.
9:19
So that is, it was a gradual process and that's part of how it unfolded.
9:23
Yeah.
9:25
That's a great segue into our next little bit of a topic here, because
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leaving a job is one thing, right?
9:31
But leaving a family business is something else altogether.
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So Adam, I'll keep it on you.
9:36
What was the hardest part for you emotionally?
9:40
Oh, so you brought the easy question to me.
9:42
Okay.
9:43
All right.
9:43
Thanks.
9:46
Okay, so for those of you who are, if you're hiring family, um, I.
9:55
Ultimately you may have, they are going to move on.
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You're gonna move on, or you may have to help them move on.
10:00
Um, if you have not done this yet, if you have not left yet, or if you have not been
10:06
responsible for a family member leaving, I wanna put this on a continuum for you.
10:12
I had, before I joined the family company, I think 11 different jobs.
10:17
For free pay or school credit.
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So that means 11, 12, 13 times I have left a job.
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So if you think about, if, if you can see me on the video here, I'm
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kind of splitting my fingers apart.
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Like on this side, on the right side.
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Is that you're right.
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Or, I don't know what that is.
10:36
Yeah.
10:36
Okay.
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Let's just say on the left side, on the, on the left side of this line
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or this continuum, it's just like.
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The normal emotional impact of moving from one job to another.
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I mean, sometimes it's great.
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You move, it's easy.
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You're getting a promotion, you're getting the job you wanted.
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You were in a temporary placeholder job, and now you're in a more permanent
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position and there's a little bit of grief that can go with that.
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You may miss your coworkers.
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You may wish you had done it earlier, but it doesn't carry
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a lot of emotional weight.
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Then I want you to go to the far.
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The far right side.
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So that was the left side.
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Go to the far right side with me, and that's the emotional
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impact of a profound family loss.
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This can be death, disability, estrangement.
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Okay, so on one end you've got the emotional impact of a loss,
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but it's kind of transactional.
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And, and depending, and depending on how long you were in the job, it may move
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you more toward the middle, depending on how much you were invested, how much
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of your lifestyle is caught up in it.
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Leaving and moving or losing a job does carry an impact, whether
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it was your decision or not.
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But when you decide when you work with family, what we've done is we have mixed
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the unconditional nature of business with the conditional nature of family.
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Which is what creates this emotional impact.
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And when you exit a family company, it's probably going to be on the
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right side, even if you do it the right way at the right time.
12:15
Stephanie, I met a guy.
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He had a successful career as a third gener, second generation, CEO.
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He was second gen, CEO.
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He saw his succession as a process, so he had his board involved.
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He had a consultant involved and his son was next in line, but they were
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responsible for evaluating it and.
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It was, you would think he's kind of toward the left side, right?
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This is sounding intellectual and cerebral, and he's gonna do it easily.
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Y'all, his consultant came back to him and said, uh, good news, bad news.
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Your son is qualified to take over for you, and the board agrees with me.
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However, we also agree that you're a steamroller.
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And if you are still in place when your son becomes CEO, you will
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bulldoze your son, injuring the company and your relationship.
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So as of today, you are no longer CEO.
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Congratulations on your retirement.
13:16
And just like that, he was outta the business.
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And we were talking about two years after that happened.
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He's like, Adam, it took me a year to get my head around it.
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Like all of a sudden he went from thinking this and it was over here.
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Your experience or your family member's experience?
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It's gonna depend.
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Jacqueline, you were sharing some earlier, like what did you, how
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much were you involved, how much it was part of your identity?
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How long have you been there?
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It's on a continuum and.
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Yeah, it, it, it's on it.
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And none of us hit the same place.
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It can even be what you gave up.
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And so if you have one family, like when my cousin left, my cousin left,
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and she's now CHRO of a Fortune 200 company, that's one exit When somebody
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else leaves in any family company, it may be a totally different circumstance
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with a totally different impact.
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So I think it's important.
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Stephanie, please, if you haven't done this before, it's
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not just a cerebral decision.
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For sure.
14:16
Yeah.
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Jacqueline, you wanna touch a little bit on the emotional impact
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that it had on you when you left?
14:23
Yeah.
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You don't want to, it's okay.
14:26
No, absolutely.
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I'm happy to share it and I'll try and touch.
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I do wanna piggyback off of, um, what Adam said a little bit.
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'cause we really connected over this and, and just reiterate, because I saw it
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several times in the chat to reiterate the importance of, um, clear communication.
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And anytime you're in a family business, um, Adam states it very
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well, I'm not gonna state it the exact same way Adam does, 'cause I can't.
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Um, but, um, the way I typically state it is when you're working in
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a family business, you're wearing three hats generally, right?
15:03
You're a family member,
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you're an owner if you have any equity.
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So even though I was not primary owner, I had an equity in the business.
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Um, and then I would, you're an employee.
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You wear a seat or maybe two or three depending on your family
15:19
business in the organization.
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And so to have appropriate communication and, and meeting cadence, um, with
15:31
each of those hats individually and being incredibly clear about what hat
15:36
you're wearing in the conversation.
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Right.
15:39
Is this a family conversation?
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I'm a family member and the dynamics of the family come into
15:50
play with that conversation.
15:52
Right?
15:52
Or are we having conversations as owners about the business and
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what the future of the business is and how to operate this business?
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Or are we having conversations as employees wearing our specific hat
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or hats sometimes in family business.
16:12
Being really, really clear about what hat you're wearing when, uh, saying
16:18
I, it is been said many times, but I say, right to be clear, is to be kind.
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And so put on that hat, have the clear conversation, be open
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and honest, whether it's in the business or in the family circle.
16:35
Um, so that expectations align and that individuals.
16:41
Can make decisions that are best for themselves and their families.
16:47
And that's not necessarily tied to family itself, right?
16:52
Um, it's our own identity because it's so common in family business,
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um, to have your, as Adam said, to have your identity tied to it.
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Especially when you come into a family business as a next gen or sec, you
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know, second gen, next gen, whatever that generation is, you grew up in it.
17:10
Then you come into it so early, oftentimes, I, I also love what
17:15
Adam, um, has researched and shares of like the importance of setting
17:20
those boundaries of what's required before coming into a family business.
17:25
Um, and the idea of like, go work somewhere else.
17:27
Have them go work somewhere else for five years and learn what it's
17:31
like to work without a safety net.
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And work for a boss who doesn't have the same love and admiration
17:38
for you as your parents do, right?
17:41
Like, go experience that.
17:43
And then if you still wanna come into the family business, let's talk
17:46
about what other, um, boxes need to be checked in order to do that.
17:50
I think that that's a phenomenal, um, way to approach it, but every
17:54
family's going to be different.
17:56
Um, but tying back to identity, like for me specifically, I
18:00
grew up in that family business.
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There was no clear lines between family, employee, or owners.
18:07
Um, everything was just business for us.
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And then I was essentially felt obligated to come work for the family business
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and that just became who I was, right?
18:19
Every day.
18:20
Um, how can we, how can I make my parents proud?
18:22
How can I lead this business well?
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Um, how can I learn new skills and how can I go home and take care of my family?
18:30
Um, and.
18:31
It just became so much of who I was.
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So when that decision came, um, where I ultimately decided to leave, I had
18:42
so much peace because I pondered on at what expense is this worth it for
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so long, and when the outcome wasn't what had been promised, the decision
18:53
to leave was so clear and so I had a lot of peace in the decision, but
18:57
I had so much work to do personally.
19:01
To kind of emotionally recover from that decision and figure out who I
19:06
was and what I wanted to do and how I wanted to still serve people and
19:11
um, and take care of entrepreneurs, which I've now landed on my feet.
19:15
But, um, that is, it's a, I was so tied to who I was in that family business,
19:22
and I still catch myself some days thinking like, oh, I can, I can do
19:27
this, or I can go do, and I'm like, no.
19:30
My stepfather's not my boss.
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Um, or no, I don't need to respond that way.
19:35
I don't have to protect anyone.
19:37
Right.
19:38
I'm not still be kind, but, right.
19:41
Um, so it's, I mean, it is, it's, it's a big adjustment.
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So I just go back to anyone in the chat who is at any point in this process
19:52
of thinking about working for the business, working in the business.
19:56
Or you know, thinking of bringing the next gen in or exiting the business.
20:00
Like just the importance of clear communication and beginning to
20:05
work through what that will be like emotionally, um, for all parties involved.
20:11
'cause there's the other dynamic of the leading generation too.
20:16
Yeah, that's a, that's really good advice.
20:18
Um, Leslie, I'm gonna pop it over to you.
20:21
If you wanna touch on the emotional aspect and then also how kind of
20:25
pig tailing, pigtail, dovetailing off of what Jacqueline just said.
20:29
Um, how did you approach that conversation, both at home and
20:34
um, in the family business?
20:37
Sure.
20:38
Um, the hardest part emotionally for me was first admitting to myself that
20:46
I was never going to succeed in taking over that family business and being
20:50
able to detach from that identity.
20:52
That was by far the hardest part, and I needed some tools to help me with that.
20:58
Um, I.
21:00
Found a great resource in Emily P.
21:03
Freeman, who teaches discernment and decision making.
21:07
She wrote a book called How to Walk Into a Room, and it is a guide for
21:13
knowing when to stay and when to go.
21:14
The art of knowing when to stay and when to go.
21:17
And there's just some very practical, applicable,
21:21
um, discernment and decision making tools that kind of guide you through knowing.
21:29
How to walk into a room, and when you walk out of the room you're in, you're
21:33
oftentimes not walking into like a proverbial or metaphorical new room.
21:39
Sometimes you're walking into a hallway, a transition time, and how to live well
21:44
through these sorts of transitions of life where a series of rooms or a house.
21:49
So I highly recommend that to, uh, help you get a handle on being clear
21:54
with yourself because you can't have those conversations if you can't
21:58
have that clarity in your own mind.
22:00
You don't have any language.
22:01
And, um, you've got to be able to, as Jacqueline said, be clear so
22:10
that you can be kind to everyone.
22:13
And so when I started to approach those conversations.
22:18
It was, it had to be for me, just a, um, a statement of fact.
22:27
I am feeling, uh, pulled towards landscape architecture again, and
22:34
I am feeling the need for my own health insurance plan and 401k.
22:41
And I don't think that these things are available to me here.
22:45
So I am going to update my portfolio, one tiny thing, and I just said I'm,
22:52
I'm going to update my portfolio.
22:54
And that's all I did.
22:55
And then the next conversation was I got some good feedback on my portfolio.
23:00
Um, I've noticed that in the job listings, there are a few things
23:05
that would be a fit for me.
23:07
I'm going to apply for these jobs.
23:09
It was step by step very clear.
23:11
I did not justify the my reason for leaving other than to say, I need this
23:16
thing, but before I could have any of these tiny step conversations or be
23:21
clear with, I need this thing, so I'm gonna take this tiny action, I had
23:26
to be clear with myself, and that's how I approached the conversation.
23:29
I had to have the conversation inside before I could have any
23:33
of the conversations outside.
23:36
All right, we are coming up on time, but I did wanna ask just,
23:40
um, a couple more quick ones.
23:42
Um, maybe Leslie, you could take this one.
23:44
If you could go back.
23:45
Would you handle anything differently or you feel, you feel pretty
23:48
good about how it all went down?
23:51
I like the way I left.
23:52
I'm proud of the way that I left.
23:55
Um, it's important however anyone decides to make any change in their life that
24:00
you, uh, do it from your own integrity that you can go to sleep at night.
24:05
Look yourself in the mirror the next day and know that you handled it the best way
24:11
you could handle it, and you're proud of yourself for the way you did handle it.
24:15
Yeah, I am actually terrible at transparency.
24:19
I would much rather manipulate the situation in a kind and, um,
24:26
you know, ethical way, of course.
24:28
Uh, but I would much rather convince you that what I need is also what
24:32
you need and not have to ask for it.
24:36
So, um, I'm really, really grateful for, um.
24:47
I don't know.
24:48
I, I, I can't take credit for it.
24:49
I, I honestly feel like it was divine, the preparation that was
24:54
available to me, to one, get ready to leave and then recover after I left.
24:59
Um, another resource that I could throw out there, if someone's
25:02
looking for some tools in this is called the Next Right Thing.
25:06
And it is, uh, also by Emily P.
25:10
Freeman.
25:10
That's what she does.
25:11
She's in the discernment and decision making process.
25:14
These, um, the next right thing is a tool that I would recommend to anyone who is
25:19
looking for how to, um, be proud of the way that they move about in the world.
25:26
Because if you have that level of integrity, then I feel like you, no
25:31
matter what happens or how difficult it is, you'll have that solid core
25:36
of who I am at my deepest values and that I moved out from there.
25:41
I think if I can grab, thank you.
25:43
Yes, definitely.
25:44
Yeah, please go ahead.
25:45
I was just gonna say, I appreciated Leslie sharing those with me before we went on
25:48
so that we can a great, a great takeaway.
25:51
But yeah, Adam, go ahead.
25:52
Yeah, so Leslie I, something you said and then that Jacqueline said that I loved,
25:57
like I was talking to a family recently and this was something that somebody gave
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to me when I was stepping away as well.
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They said, I want you to imagine, and I told somebody this last week
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who was really struggling with their aunt and was thinking about leaving.
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I said, I want you to imagine there's a video camera behind you.
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I want you to imagine it's gonna film you for the next eight months, and then in
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six years we're gonna show it to your sons and they're gonna see everything you said,
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everything you texted, everything you emailed, every family meeting y'all had.
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Are you gonna be proud of how you showed up?
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Are you gonna be proud of how you, because it's really hard depending
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on the situation, but will you be proud of how you showed up?
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I'm not talking about anybody else.
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Right?
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And one of the things that helps people do that, Jacqueline, is what you said.
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Why start planning for family exits now?
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'cause it's going to happen.
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The timing is not necessarily yours.
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Even if you hired a board consultant, but Jacqueline, your
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story about an off ramp family.
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I, I talked to a family recently 'cause their lawyer called me and
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said, I need you to talk to my client.
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They, they called me for a severance agreement for a
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family member and it was cheap.
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I'm just gonna be honest.
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I said, and the first thing I said to 'em was, listen, you're gonna give this family
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member you want to as best you can with the revenue and margin of your business.
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Give them a, give them the chance to breathe.
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Don't upend their life.
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Give them a reason to call a financial manager versus an attorney.
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I've been called in that situation too, and that's the chaotic situation.
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So one, a camera following you around is a great visual for people
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when you start thinking about exiting a family member or exiting.
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But, and it's interesting, Jacqueline, I talked to, it was a brother and sister
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and they had just bought their mother out.
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And so you would think that they wanted to work on, hey, let's put
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some governance around how we hire family, how we compensate each other.
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Do we run family meetings?
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One of 'em actually said.
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I wanna create an off ramp.
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'cause I don't know, with mom gone, if we're gonna like each other and y'all, it
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felt so early to plan for exiting, but you don't know when it's coming and you don't
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want to have those conversations live.
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So you, if you don't have family meetings, I would say do it.
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Bring a facilitator with you to get the ball rolling and things like off
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ramp camera following you around.
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Like those are really helpful ideas to start getting in front of your family.
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The Family Enterprise Center at Kennesaw State does an incredible job of
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providing resources for family companies, whether you own a family company, work
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together, or like on this episode, are a former member of a family company.
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It's always still around, and so Kennesaw State does a great
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job of providing resources.
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This webinar was just one example.
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If you go to the show notes, we will link to the full episode.
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It's about an hour long.
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We got into three questions here.
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There are several more.
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There's some longer explanations, some really interesting stories that get
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shared, so I encourage you to go watch the whole webinar when you have time,
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and I hope this was helpful to you.
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The 21 Clear Podcast every time you listen to it.
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My hope is it helps you take just a few minutes to think about how your family
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works in and owns the company together.
29:18
That unique dynamic is your inner family business that sits inside your
29:23
family company and the health of it directly impacts the results that
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you're able to produce out of the company and the strength of your family.
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I hope this has helped you build some clarity.
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Maybe even if you share it with a family member, some alignment, some
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communication, some trust, some understanding with other family, employees
29:43
and owners so that you all can build a chaos proof family business as well.
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Again, hope you enjoyed this episode.
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Click on the webinar from Kennesaw State in the show notes.
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We will see you again in the next episode, as my grandfather would've said.
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Thank you so very, very much for listening.