Latest / ChangeMakers with Katie Goar / Episode 115: Leonard Spicer, Executive Director of the Newark Housing Authority

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Episode 115: Leonard Spicer, Executive Director of the Newark Housing Authority · ChangeMakers with Katie Goar

0:05
Speaker 1: This is change Makers with Katie Gore finding the right
0:09
Speaker 1: solutions for the affordable housing community.
0:13
Speaker 2: This week's change Maker is Leonard Spicer, the executive director
0:17
Speaker 2: of the Newark Housing Authority, which oversees forty five developments
0:21
Speaker 2: across nearly every neighborhood in Newark, including ten elderly disabled,
0:26
Speaker 2: and thirty four family developments, with scattered site projects throughout
0:30
Speaker 2: the city. Leonard has extensive experience in the public housing sector.
0:36
Speaker 2: He also combines his leadership from his time at the
0:39
Speaker 2: United States Department of Housing and Urban Development with a
0:43
Speaker 2: deep commitment to improving community living for the residents of Newark. Leonard,
0:48
Speaker 2: Welcome to the podcast.
0:49
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me on. I appreciate your time.
0:52
Speaker 2: Thank you for being here. We've got a lot we
0:54
Speaker 2: want to cover, so I want to jump right in,
0:56
Speaker 2: but I like to strict these podcasts first by really
1:00
Speaker 2: hearing about your early ramp into the industry. Would you
1:04
Speaker 2: mind sharing with us how you got started working in
1:08
Speaker 2: affordable housing.
1:10
Speaker 3: Like most people, I kind of stumbled into it.
1:13
Speaker 4: So I went to DePaul University in Chicago, Illinois, and
1:17
Speaker 4: upon graduating, like most of us, we started looking for
1:21
Speaker 4: it for jobs. So honestly, I thought my career path
1:25
Speaker 4: was going to be the Foreign Diplomatic Service, so I
1:28
Speaker 4: was a major in public policy and international relations. So
1:32
Speaker 4: I applied for the Foreign Civil Service exam, and I
1:35
Speaker 4: started applying for a local government around Chicago. In the
1:39
Speaker 4: first place to call me on the domestic side was
1:43
Speaker 4: the Chicago House Authority, and I had a manager that
1:47
Speaker 4: I interviewed with was very analytical, very textbook theoretical, and
1:52
Speaker 4: heard I had a great conversation.
1:54
Speaker 3: I was like, Hey, I'm gonna try this. So I
1:57
Speaker 3: took a.
1:58
Speaker 4: Shot and started off in the occupancy department of Chicago
2:01
Speaker 4: House and Authority as a project coordinator, which is really
2:04
Speaker 4: an unoccupancy specialist. And I kind of love the nuts
2:08
Speaker 4: and boats of it of putting all the pieces of
2:11
Speaker 4: the puzzle together to make things happen. Because you're at
2:14
Speaker 4: a PHA, you're able to see everything happened from beginning
2:18
Speaker 4: to end, which is different.
2:21
Speaker 2: Well, if I can stereotype, some of the best executive
2:24
Speaker 2: directors are the ones who knew how to do everything
2:27
Speaker 2: from the ground and being an occupancy specialist that is
2:32
Speaker 2: really feet to the fire, isn't it.
2:34
Speaker 3: Literally.
2:36
Speaker 4: We were managing the weight lists at that time, Chicago's.
2:39
Speaker 3: I'm sure you're aware, one of those unique house authorities.
2:41
Speaker 4: Where they outsourced all the day to day operations of
2:45
Speaker 4: all the sites.
2:46
Speaker 3: So we were.
2:47
Speaker 4: Regularly routinely working with the property managers and the various
2:51
Speaker 4: management firms, but we still received all the weightless applicants,
2:56
Speaker 4: so it was still touching base with those residents that
2:59
Speaker 4: were looking for housing, actually those individuals looking for housing,
3:03
Speaker 4: but also having a lot of one oh one conversations
3:08
Speaker 4: with the community about how long they've been on the
3:10
Speaker 4: wait list, of how a family composition has changed, how
3:13
Speaker 4: their income has changed. In this kind of working through
3:16
Speaker 4: all those things, so it definitely was never a boring
3:19
Speaker 4: day at cha.
3:22
Speaker 2: So let's talk about your time at HUD. This is
3:24
Speaker 2: an interesting sort of off ramp moment. Tell us about
3:31
Speaker 2: what you did there and maybe what you saw from
3:35
Speaker 2: that different speet. No longer in the operator role, but
3:39
Speaker 2: now in the regulator role, what was your time like there?
3:43
Speaker 4: Right again, I ran the gambit of my time at
3:48
Speaker 4: the US Department House in urban Development. I started off
3:51
Speaker 4: as a portfolio management specialist a GS nine, so came
3:55
Speaker 4: at the entry level professional position in the Fort Workfield office,
4:00
Speaker 4: and we had jurisdiction of about eighty percent of the
4:03
Speaker 4: state of Texas.
4:04
Speaker 3: So from those.
4:05
Speaker 4: Small rural housing authorities that were about fifty units in
4:11
Speaker 4: the middle of the rural area to the very largest
4:15
Speaker 4: house and authorities some which are the Dallas House and Authority.
4:21
Speaker 4: I think that was probably the largest house of authority
4:22
Speaker 4: or our jurisdiction. So it really varied from you know,
4:25
Speaker 4: fifty units to you know, ten twelve thousand units, right,
4:29
Speaker 4: But in that role, it was a little bit of everything.
4:31
Speaker 4: Touch base with the house and authorities. Are you leasing units?
4:36
Speaker 4: What are your re ex scores?
4:37
Speaker 3: Look allect, what is your occupancy plan? Your capital fund?
4:40
Speaker 3: But it wasn't for me.
4:42
Speaker 4: It wasn't just there because I started off doing that,
4:44
Speaker 4: but I also transitioned to being in a division director
4:48
Speaker 4: in the New York City Field Office, so working with
4:50
Speaker 4: the largest house and authorities in the country in New
4:53
Speaker 4: York with the NISCHE, the HPDs. It didn't transition over
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Speaker 4: to Newark as the PIH director. So then having jurisdiction
5:03
Speaker 4: of the entire state and engaging with all the house
5:06
Speaker 4: authorities as well as the various groups throughout the stay
5:11
Speaker 4: of New Jersey and as well being a receiver. I
5:14
Speaker 4: work as a recovery administrator for houses authorities are declared
5:18
Speaker 4: in default. How what HUD comes in and takes possession
5:21
Speaker 4: of the house and authority. In that capacity, was working
5:24
Speaker 4: as interim executive director board chair, interfacing with the congressionals,
5:32
Speaker 4: the mayor, HUT headquarters on the day to day operations
5:37
Speaker 4: as and you know, realistically years ago, I did a
5:40
Speaker 4: couple of disaster deployments as we called with HUDs, so
5:45
Speaker 4: working with the Office of Recovery Administration for Disasters on
5:51
Speaker 4: Hurricane Harvey, so really working with people who are directly
5:54
Speaker 4: impacted and trying to help them find with secure housing.
5:57
Speaker 4: So I've kind of done a lot in the regulatory
6:00
Speaker 4: side on the HUD side in MPIH and look at
6:04
Speaker 4: it from Gs nine to Gs fifteen.
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Speaker 2: So I have a question, when you were serving as
6:10
Speaker 2: the Public Housing Recovery Administrator, is there something And this
6:14
Speaker 2: is a huge stereotype, so like maybe drill down to
6:18
Speaker 2: the details and guide us here, but was there something
6:21
Speaker 2: that you could see? Aha, this is where housing agencies
6:25
Speaker 2: got it right, and this is where they're all failing miserably.
6:31
Speaker 2: Are there a couple of bullet points in each of
6:33
Speaker 2: those that you saw or was it really different for
6:36
Speaker 2: every single city.
6:40
Speaker 4: There are always underlined it's different every scene, but there
6:44
Speaker 4: are underlying items that will carry from one place to another.
6:50
Speaker 3: And what I will say is.
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Speaker 4: You have to have an informed and educated board of
6:59
Speaker 4: director's board of commissions and every housing authority that I
7:05
Speaker 4: saw that was in substantial default. Rather, however HUD stepped in,
7:10
Speaker 4: you had a board that was not informed and was
7:13
Speaker 4: relying solely on the executive director to give the narrative.
7:20
Speaker 4: And that could be good if you have someone that
7:22
Speaker 4: is well intentioned in doing things the right way, But
7:26
Speaker 4: if you have someone that just doesn't know, then they're
7:29
Speaker 4: painting far outside the lines and you're not aware of
7:32
Speaker 4: that until it's too late, because that's when you have
7:35
Speaker 4: people from HUD coming in to do reviews and to
7:38
Speaker 4: slap your risks on what they did that they should
7:41
Speaker 4: have done.
7:43
Speaker 2: And I mean, ultimately it's a business driven model, but
7:46
Speaker 2: there are impacts to residents' lives, and I think that
7:50
Speaker 2: board being able to have the handle on policy performance
7:56
Speaker 2: and just being able to kind of have that true
7:59
Speaker 2: board so I could see where that would be one
8:02
Speaker 2: of the major indicators if it's going right or not.
8:06
Speaker 4: Definitely, and we have to have conversations on those annual
8:10
Speaker 4: We all get the fall scores, the assessments from HUD.
8:15
Speaker 4: So I hope every house of authoritis is their board
8:18
Speaker 4: is having conversations with the executive staff annually on what
8:22
Speaker 4: drumy Donald, what was our scores and these four sub
8:25
Speaker 4: indicators and how does this roll up to the big
8:28
Speaker 4: picture and what are we doing to improve right? So
8:31
Speaker 4: that should be the hopefully the nexus of the annual
8:34
Speaker 4: check ins on how are we doing as an agency
8:38
Speaker 4: and are we meeting the needs of our community.
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Speaker 2: I like to commonly use an example when I worked
8:43
Speaker 2: in public housing and we would go out and do
8:46
Speaker 2: a pre react inspection, and we do a property tour,
8:50
Speaker 2: and we'd have everything tight and tidy, and then one
8:52
Speaker 2: or two days later you'd come back out and you're like,
8:55
Speaker 2: wait a minute, we just had the grounds cleaned up.
8:57
Speaker 2: What happened here? That demonstrates constant vigilance, And even though
9:05
Speaker 2: you had it together one day, two day, thirty days ago,
9:08
Speaker 2: that does not mean you're going to have it together tomorrow.
9:11
Speaker 2: And that constant vigilance is hard on staff because these
9:15
Speaker 2: are complex programs. But what I like about what you're
9:20
Speaker 2: doing here in your role is that you have brought
9:23
Speaker 2: a multi layer approach to performance management and accountability. So,
9:29
Speaker 2: without giving the punchline first, why didn't you tell us
9:33
Speaker 2: what your approach to just creating that performance platform and
9:38
Speaker 2: that culture. How is that impacting your leadership in your
9:42
Speaker 2: current role?
9:43
Speaker 3: I try to be more handsled than I probably should.
9:46
Speaker 4: But what I believe is you have to meet people
9:49
Speaker 4: where they are right, and part of that is having
9:53
Speaker 4: those those challenging conversations, but also being able to speak
9:57
Speaker 4: to people in language that they are understand, which means
10:01
Speaker 4: oftentimes you have to have the prerequisit background to understand
10:06
Speaker 4: what they're going through. So from my perspective, I've been
10:10
Speaker 4: a property manager, so I can sit down with our
10:12
Speaker 4: property managers and talk about the basics of property management.
10:16
Speaker 3: Are you collecting rate?
10:18
Speaker 4: Did you go knock on the door, did you put
10:20
Speaker 4: the notice under the door you didn't hear from someone
10:23
Speaker 4: who typically pays rent? Did you open their file up
10:25
Speaker 4: and call the next sekin to see if someone's in
10:27
Speaker 4: the hospital of something has happened. That's the basics of
10:30
Speaker 4: property management. Have you walked your property? Are you walking
10:34
Speaker 4: it right? I've overseen a maintenance department in Miamigate County
10:39
Speaker 4: rouse a assistant division director of the Public Housing. So
10:42
Speaker 4: I understand the day to day maintenance because I lived
10:45
Speaker 4: it for four years almost right, So being able to
10:49
Speaker 4: meet those people where they are and say, hey, I understand,
10:52
Speaker 4: how can we help.
10:54
Speaker 3: This is what our end goal is. This is where
10:57
Speaker 3: you are?
10:57
Speaker 4: What twos can I provide you to get you there?
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Speaker 4: Because this is the ultimate goal and let's figure out
11:04
Speaker 4: what that path looks like. As opposed to as people
11:09
Speaker 4: always say the executive director, you know, we sit in
11:13
Speaker 4: an ivory tower and just dictate from the central office of.
11:16
Speaker 3: What has to happen. I go out to the sites.
11:18
Speaker 4: I have conversations, and I have conversations based on my
11:22
Speaker 4: practical experience, but also listening to them of what's happening there.
11:27
Speaker 4: Because New York is not the same as Miami. New
11:30
Speaker 4: York is not the same as Chicago. So what I
11:32
Speaker 4: have learned in those places is I can't just put
11:35
Speaker 4: that here and say we're gonna make this what it
11:37
Speaker 4: was else somewhere else. But we have to have conversations
11:41
Speaker 4: about how do we improve and what are you seeing?
11:44
Speaker 4: Based on also what I have learned actually works. So
11:48
Speaker 4: you can't fluff me on some things because I know it.
11:51
Speaker 4: I know how long it takes to do a work order,
11:54
Speaker 4: the complexities, et cetera. So it can't be pie in
11:57
Speaker 4: the sky. It has to be applicable. What does it
12:00
Speaker 4: take to lease up to feel this spy day out,
12:05
Speaker 4: to get it out, to get it done right and
12:07
Speaker 4: saying hey, well they didn't come in in that thirty
12:10
Speaker 4: sixty day window, I'm going to say, well, you know
12:12
Speaker 4: it's one hundred and twenty days.
12:14
Speaker 3: Where do we start this process? Right?
12:17
Speaker 4: So just kind of meeting people where they are providing
12:19
Speaker 4: goals that are going to kind of sing pie in
12:21
Speaker 4: the sky, but we have to have something that's high
12:25
Speaker 4: level that we're trying to get to, but then have
12:29
Speaker 4: various touch points, you know, kind of using the smart
12:32
Speaker 4: system of how are we moving the ball closer to
12:35
Speaker 4: getting there and being reasonable with those expectations because, as
12:40
Speaker 4: you mentioned, things change.
12:41
Speaker 3: It is a dynamic area, dynamic market.
12:44
Speaker 4: So we have to be realistic, but it doesn't mean
12:46
Speaker 4: we shy away from trying to meet perfection.
12:50
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Newark for a minute. How long have
12:54
Speaker 2: you been there and what are you seeing as some
12:57
Speaker 2: of the unique challenges, if you will, or some of
13:02
Speaker 2: the best practices that you're already starting to see in Newark.
13:07
Speaker 2: I love Newark. It is a very challenging city, but
13:10
Speaker 2: it actually is so rewarding on so many parts. So
13:15
Speaker 2: but I want to hear your perspective on Newark, so.
13:18
Speaker 3: I agree with you. I've been here year three hundred
13:23
Speaker 3: and three hundred seventy two days.
13:25
Speaker 4: If I've been been exactly looking looking at today's calendar,
13:30
Speaker 4: it is is a mix of a little bit of everything,
13:34
Speaker 4: which is what I find very interesting about it is
13:39
Speaker 4: an agency that historically has have with.
13:43
Speaker 3: The bail weather effactor. It's been troubled, it's got out
13:47
Speaker 3: of troubled, it's.
13:48
Speaker 4: Got back into trouble, which isn't uncommon for a lot
13:52
Speaker 4: of house authorities across the country. So what I have
13:55
Speaker 4: taken the approach of here is kind of diving into
14:00
Speaker 4: the meat and potatoes, getting back to the basics of
14:04
Speaker 4: what we are supposed to be doing on a day
14:07
Speaker 4: to day basis, right, how do we meet our customers
14:12
Speaker 4: and how do we ensure that they have safe, sanitary
14:15
Speaker 4: and decent housing at the very minimal right. But part
14:19
Speaker 4: of that is making sure that we have the correct
14:22
Speaker 4: systems in place so we can track, so that our
14:26
Speaker 4: clients can track, making sure that we are doing what
14:30
Speaker 4: our regulator says we have to do with our five
14:33
Speaker 4: eights on our AHCV program as well as our public
14:36
Speaker 4: housing program. So it really is diving into the weeds,
14:41
Speaker 4: getting into the programmatic areas to understand where we may
14:46
Speaker 4: have gone off and how we can then kind of
14:49
Speaker 4: get back or path so that the scores improve holistically.
14:54
Speaker 3: And that really is culture change.
14:56
Speaker 4: This is an agency that at one point in time
14:59
Speaker 4: was more than twelve thousand public housing units and now
15:02
Speaker 4: we're down to about seven thousand public housing units.
15:06
Speaker 3: Right.
15:06
Speaker 4: This is an area that we have said historically of
15:10
Speaker 4: we are going to which is uncommon in large urban areas,
15:14
Speaker 4: where we're going to demolish an older complex that has
15:18
Speaker 4: outlived this life expectancy and we say we're going to
15:20
Speaker 4: build back and five, ten, fifteen, twenty years go by
15:24
Speaker 4: and that lot is still sitting there. Right, So it
15:28
Speaker 4: is about but then rad comes in, you know, and
15:32
Speaker 4: now we say, hey.
15:32
Speaker 3: We can do it.
15:34
Speaker 4: But doing it then becomes a little bit of a
15:38
Speaker 4: challenge for a myriad of reasons, Right, so just trying
15:43
Speaker 4: to meet our goals, trying to do what we have
15:48
Speaker 4: told people we are going to do, but also trying
15:51
Speaker 4: to do the basics of housing property management to make
15:56
Speaker 4: sure that we're able to get the little things done
15:59
Speaker 4: so we can't focus on the big things. And that's
16:01
Speaker 4: what I do and the team that I have here
16:04
Speaker 4: do on a daily basis, as well as make sure
16:06
Speaker 4: we're effectively communicating things of that nature to just make
16:10
Speaker 4: sure the culture change is happening.
16:13
Speaker 2: Let's talk about some of your goals. What is the
16:17
Speaker 2: development platform looking like for the city? I you know,
16:22
Speaker 2: rents are high, demand is high all of these dynamics.
16:26
Speaker 2: What is development looking like for you and for the agency?
16:29
Speaker 2: Maybe project out and dream for us over the next
16:32
Speaker 2: five years what you would like to see happens.
16:36
Speaker 4: It's interesting because when I first came into the agency,
16:39
Speaker 4: as said now with the entire agency as a whole,
16:42
Speaker 4: and said, hey, I want us to get back to
16:44
Speaker 4: the basis. I want us to focus on our current
16:47
Speaker 4: assets and prove our current assets, and once we have
16:51
Speaker 4: done that, then move on to re envisioning what our
16:56
Speaker 4: housing stock looks like, figuring out how we can ex
17:00
Speaker 4: banned our footprint in the city of work. What I
17:03
Speaker 4: have learned is you have to do those things simultaneously.
17:07
Speaker 4: You can't button up one and then start on the other. Right, So,
17:11
Speaker 4: the city of Newark as well as northern New Jersey,
17:16
Speaker 4: there's a several reports out there say there's a deficit
17:18
Speaker 4: of affordable housing to the tune about sixteen thousand units, right,
17:24
Speaker 4: So that's a large gap that through someone that needs
17:29
Speaker 4: to feel that we are uniquely situated in Newark with
17:35
Speaker 4: our assets we have. Weal on a significant number of
17:37
Speaker 4: vacant parcels that don't have a declaration of trust.
17:40
Speaker 3: On them that we can build units.
17:43
Speaker 4: We can't expand our footprint without having to go through
17:48
Speaker 4: a lot of the regulatory loops and hurdles that we
17:52
Speaker 4: would have to go through if the property had a
17:55
Speaker 4: decoration of trust on it. So what I would like
17:58
Speaker 4: to see in the next three three years is the
18:03
Speaker 4: house that AUTH already expand its footprint. So that means
18:06
Speaker 4: building and our vacant parcels, acquiring the assets, whether it's
18:12
Speaker 4: it's buying back Hope six properties, whether it is developers
18:16
Speaker 4: that are looking to get out of those little income
18:21
Speaker 4: tax credit deals. At the end of the compliance period
18:24
Speaker 4: to acquire those assets so that we are able to
18:27
Speaker 4: step into the gap to reduce the number of affordable
18:32
Speaker 4: housing units that are needed in northern New Jersey, specifically
18:36
Speaker 4: in New York, but really work with our development partners
18:40
Speaker 4: in this state to figure out how we can bridge
18:43
Speaker 4: the gap.
18:44
Speaker 3: Right, So, I want us to expand our footprint.
18:46
Speaker 4: I want us to continue to work on sustaining our
18:50
Speaker 4: current assets while looking to reposition those assets because a
18:54
Speaker 4: lot a lot of our assets were built in the
18:56
Speaker 4: forties and the fifties, and hey, climate change is real.
19:01
Speaker 4: People need ac here.
19:05
Speaker 3: And they just weren't thinking of that seventy years ago
19:08
Speaker 3: when they built the build those.
19:10
Speaker 4: Units and it's just not possible to put those in.
19:13
Speaker 4: So we are looking to do all those things as
19:16
Speaker 4: we focus on the basics as well. But I really
19:18
Speaker 4: want to see us expand our affordable housing footprint, work
19:22
Speaker 4: with the city, the state, the county, to work collaboratively,
19:27
Speaker 4: because this is not a house and authority endeavor. It's
19:31
Speaker 4: an endeavor that all of us have to take on,
19:33
Speaker 4: that all of us have to have ownership in. But
19:35
Speaker 4: as well, given who we are, we understand that we
19:39
Speaker 4: have to play as a house and authority a major
19:42
Speaker 4: role in what that looks like, because that is our
19:44
Speaker 4: book of business.
19:46
Speaker 2: I appreciate hearing your balanced approach because so many executive
19:50
Speaker 2: directors are out there just developed, developed, developed, but then
19:54
Speaker 2: they are forgetting that back of house operation core, and
20:00
Speaker 2: so I appreciate hearing the balanced approach that you're realizing
20:03
Speaker 2: you've got to shore up what you do best, what
20:06
Speaker 2: you have in hand today's task, but then you're also
20:09
Speaker 2: visioning for the future. So great job and hitting both
20:13
Speaker 2: of those marks, because it really is a push pull relationship,
20:15
Speaker 2: isn't it.
20:17
Speaker 4: It is it is, and every day you're rejigging the
20:22
Speaker 4: alignment right.
20:23
Speaker 3: So again, we have to meet deadlines. According to Hut.
20:27
Speaker 3: You know when we're going to put a chap in.
20:28
Speaker 4: When they're reviewing those when we can go to closing,
20:31
Speaker 4: So we have to back into those dates equally. So
20:34
Speaker 4: which has happened since I've been here. You have significant
20:38
Speaker 4: capital needs and you think it's fine, and then winter comes,
20:41
Speaker 4: spring comes, you start to go into those mechanical electrical
20:45
Speaker 4: plumbing systems.
20:46
Speaker 3: And you're going, WHOA, I don't have eight.
20:49
Speaker 4: Million dollars to sure this up to get us through
20:52
Speaker 4: the next heating season, right, So then you have to
20:55
Speaker 4: reposition your timeline to say, how am I going to
20:59
Speaker 4: reposition this asset because it's going to be a significant
21:03
Speaker 4: monetary drain on the agency and more importantly, I can't
21:07
Speaker 4: have people living in these conditions long term. So then
21:11
Speaker 4: you have to bring everyone back to the table and
21:13
Speaker 4: though this is what it is, how can we move
21:17
Speaker 4: this to the front of our line of priorities as
21:20
Speaker 4: opposed to third or fourth like we thought we were
21:22
Speaker 4: going to be able to do.
21:24
Speaker 2: And there is nothing fast about making changes and asset
21:27
Speaker 2: management because you know, even if you think, oh, it's
21:30
Speaker 2: just a roough or oh it's just you know, a
21:32
Speaker 2: plumbing plumbing upgrade, whoo, there is nothing fast about those upgrades.
21:37
Speaker 2: And that is if you think you know what the
21:41
Speaker 2: floor plans are and what's behind the wall. When you're
21:44
Speaker 2: talking about properties from the forties, fifties, sixties, it is
21:47
Speaker 2: anybody's guess what starts to happen. So a big endeavor there.
21:53
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Newark because there's something really interesting beyond
21:58
Speaker 2: all the fabulous dynas of location and culture and community.
22:03
Speaker 2: But I want to talk about rent control because this
22:06
Speaker 2: is a unique dynamic for Newark. What is Well, first
22:11
Speaker 2: of all, there're gonna be people listening who don't even
22:13
Speaker 2: know what's happening. So start us at the basics and
22:16
Speaker 2: tell us what is happening in Newark with rent control?
22:20
Speaker 2: How is that navigated? And what are you seeing as
22:24
Speaker 2: some of the advantages to what's going on.
22:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, so.
22:29
Speaker 4: Newark has has tried to take bits and pieces some
22:33
Speaker 4: places around the country, and closest to us is New York.
22:37
Speaker 4: That most people are aware of rent control and they're
22:40
Speaker 4: doing their own version of it, right, and there several
22:46
Speaker 4: different iterations in several different ways. So a, the city
22:50
Speaker 4: is saying that there needs to be inclusive zoning, which
22:54
Speaker 4: means there's there's twenty percent of affordable units in any
22:58
Speaker 4: new project that is constructed in the City of New York, right,
23:03
Speaker 4: with the intent being it then opens up a path
23:06
Speaker 4: for to ensure that we are not entering a situation
23:11
Speaker 4: by which we have the have versus the have nots.
23:14
Speaker 4: And if you have the money, then you can live
23:17
Speaker 4: in a new high rise buildings with all the amenities,
23:20
Speaker 4: and those that don't have it are working.
23:22
Speaker 3: In those buildings but never being able to live there.
23:25
Speaker 4: Right, equally so given post pandemic, we have a significant
23:30
Speaker 4: number of people who are New Yorkers that have moved
23:34
Speaker 4: over to Jersey because what they were able to get
23:37
Speaker 4: in New York they get twice that in Jersey. But
23:42
Speaker 4: those people still work in New York and are may
23:44
Speaker 4: it's still making New York money. The average person in
23:47
Speaker 4: New York is walking away with you know, forty nine
23:50
Speaker 4: dollars a year in income. Right, So the city is
23:53
Speaker 4: coming up with different ways, working with the county to
23:57
Speaker 4: ensure that residents aren't written Burton, that we are able
24:01
Speaker 4: to at the Housing Authority increase our FMR family our
24:05
Speaker 4: fair market rates to assist individuals looking for housing with
24:11
Speaker 4: our vouchers, but also to ensure that any new development
24:15
Speaker 4: that comes online new construction has a percentage of affordability
24:20
Speaker 4: built into it as well as the House Authority is
24:22
Speaker 4: always looking to self develop, so we can ensure that
24:26
Speaker 4: there are affordability in projects that we take on. And
24:30
Speaker 4: let me know if I've answered you directly, if I've
24:32
Speaker 4: kind of gone off of a different direction.
24:35
Speaker 2: No, it's actually good because I was listening and thinking,
24:38
Speaker 2: you know, if this works out as planned As far
24:42
Speaker 2: as finding that great balance as far as affordability, accessibility,
24:47
Speaker 2: but not scaring off development. And if that right balance happens,
24:52
Speaker 2: I envisioned this could be a very innovative project nationwide
24:55
Speaker 2: that people would want to explore. Look at the metrics,
24:58
Speaker 2: look at how you did it, see what the results were.
25:01
Speaker 3: Definitely and there are For me.
25:04
Speaker 4: The beauty is there are a lot of jurisdictions that
25:07
Speaker 4: have done something similar to this. So I'm sure you've
25:10
Speaker 4: talked about a passo in Home Right and what Jerry
25:15
Speaker 4: was able to do there, you know, close to fifteen
25:18
Speaker 4: years ago, when Mary Margret has done in Fort Worth,
25:23
Speaker 4: with Miami's doing with their portfolio, chat what Orlando has done.
25:27
Speaker 4: So there's a number of houses authorities across the country
25:30
Speaker 4: that we can look at them as case studies on
25:33
Speaker 4: what was done right, what there could have been some improvements,
25:35
Speaker 4: or we can talk to those executive directors so we
25:38
Speaker 4: can kind of avoid some of those pitfalls. And I've
25:41
Speaker 4: been able to take my board and some of the
25:43
Speaker 4: senior staff out to some of those jurisdictions so they
25:46
Speaker 4: can see it, they can interface with those executive.
25:49
Speaker 3: Staff to get some of those best practices so we
25:52
Speaker 3: can avoid that.
25:53
Speaker 4: Of course, what that does is it kind of slows
25:55
Speaker 4: the process down. But I'd rather be slow and right
26:00
Speaker 4: than fast and wrong. So I really prefer to go
26:04
Speaker 4: about it in a methodical way so it's sustainable, as
26:07
Speaker 4: opposed to saying, you know, I have a three to
26:09
Speaker 4: four year contract, I need to show what I've done
26:13
Speaker 4: so I can keep my job. Really, it's about serving
26:16
Speaker 4: the community and making sure that I provide the tools
26:19
Speaker 4: and the resources for sustainable growth, whether I'm here or not,
26:24
Speaker 4: so that the housing Authority can be successful in the future,
26:28
Speaker 4: because it's really about serving the needs of the community
26:30
Speaker 4: and the agency and not minral regalisy.
26:33
Speaker 2: And you know, let's be honest, most humans, we all
26:36
Speaker 2: want to talk about what works well, and we get
26:39
Speaker 2: uncomfortable and our hands get sweaty when we talk about
26:42
Speaker 2: what didn't work well. And as an industry, I believe
26:46
Speaker 2: that we need to lean into that because we're only
26:49
Speaker 2: going to be better with affordable housing policy and our
26:52
Speaker 2: national objectives if we're able to say, wait a minute,
26:55
Speaker 2: we forgot about this over here, or we didn't see
26:59
Speaker 2: this obstacle, and then the next community goes, aha, I
27:02
Speaker 2: learned it, I got it. Now I can keep even
27:05
Speaker 2: elevating even faster. So what you're explaining here is fabulous
27:10
Speaker 2: and it's not something that's usually incorporated on a leadership objective.
27:15
Speaker 2: So good job for you and your team there. Speaking
27:19
Speaker 2: of objectives, I want to talk about historically significant sites.
27:24
Speaker 2: You've got one there, Terrell Holmes. Tell us what you're
27:30
Speaker 2: learning as far as what you're going through with the
27:34
Speaker 2: process or elements that you're learning as you foster both
27:39
Speaker 2: the comfort for residents and looking at strong partnerships. Just
27:44
Speaker 2: explain what's going on and give us a lesson learned here.
27:50
Speaker 4: Right, So I put my regulator hat on when I
27:55
Speaker 4: stepped into the role for a couple of weeks. I
27:58
Speaker 4: think it's incumbent upon every executive directly when they come
28:01
Speaker 4: into a position CEO, to take a look at what
28:04
Speaker 4: has happened, what have you inherited, right and does that
28:08
Speaker 4: still meet your business need, especially post COVID.
28:12
Speaker 3: Right. So, Terrail Homes is a is a historical.
28:15
Speaker 4: Community here in Newark that the House and Authority went
28:20
Speaker 4: through or has elected to.
28:22
Speaker 3: Do a knockdown rebuild.
28:26
Speaker 4: Long story short, So what we did tell all residents was, hey,
28:31
Speaker 4: you will have writer.
28:32
Speaker 3: Return no matter what happens.
28:34
Speaker 4: We are going to rebuild this community, and you're going
28:37
Speaker 4: to have a writer of return, so no one is
28:39
Speaker 4: being left out. What then happened was COVID H and
28:44
Speaker 4: COVID changed the cost of borrowing money, the timeline to
28:50
Speaker 4: complete projects, and it significantly impacted the House of Authorities
28:56
Speaker 4: operated cash. So some of the timelines, all all the
29:00
Speaker 4: timelines that we had for rebuilding that community have gone left.
29:09
Speaker 4: So what we have done is we were able to
29:12
Speaker 4: secure various pots of state funding that they had to
29:16
Speaker 4: help with these type of projects, and that has moved
29:20
Speaker 4: the first phase along.
29:22
Speaker 3: Even though it's still you know, a little behind schedule.
29:25
Speaker 4: But holistically we said, hey, let's finish that phase out
29:28
Speaker 4: and then let's all sit around the table to figure
29:31
Speaker 4: out what does this project need to look like? Do
29:35
Speaker 4: we need to envision something different than we initially initially
29:39
Speaker 4: envisioned in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, right, So that doesn't
29:44
Speaker 4: change what our commitment has been for the community. What
29:48
Speaker 4: it has done is said, hey, we envisioned this was
29:53
Speaker 4: going to be three hundred and fifty units, but can
29:56
Speaker 4: we upzone to make it a larger to increase the density,
30:01
Speaker 4: so we bring back more units than just the three
30:04
Speaker 4: hundred and.
30:05
Speaker 3: Forty nine units that were envisioned, right, dudes, does the
30:08
Speaker 3: mix need to be different as opposed.
30:11
Speaker 4: To sixty percent senior forty percent family. Does it need
30:16
Speaker 4: to be forty percent senior and sixty percent family?
30:21
Speaker 3: Right?
30:22
Speaker 4: So we're having those conversations now to make sure that, hey,
30:26
Speaker 4: what they envision originally, it worked then, but does it
30:30
Speaker 4: look differently.
30:31
Speaker 3: Now in a post COVID world five years later? Right?
30:36
Speaker 4: But also making sure the community understands that, hey, we're
30:41
Speaker 4: going to move forward with demolishing those buildings as we
30:44
Speaker 4: said we're going to do. So you're not driving by
30:47
Speaker 4: year after year going They displaced us and they said
30:51
Speaker 4: they were going to do something that they never did.
30:54
Speaker 4: So we want to show the community as well as
30:56
Speaker 4: ourselves that we committed to something and we're going to
31:00
Speaker 4: through with that commitment, and we're going to continue to
31:02
Speaker 4: go back to the community on a regular basis to
31:06
Speaker 4: say this is what it looks like and this is
31:09
Speaker 4: the brabi's timeline on what that's going to live. And
31:13
Speaker 4: those are easy conversations because I wasn't here then, but
31:17
Speaker 4: the community lays that at my feet. My feet and
31:19
Speaker 4: I understand that that's what we said we were going
31:22
Speaker 4: to do, so we're making sure that we.
31:24
Speaker 3: Follow through with that commitment. But it also includes community.
31:28
Speaker 2: Input, and community input links back to what we talked
31:33
Speaker 2: about earlier, that you're doing a great job of accountability
31:36
Speaker 2: and so you're taking that seriously when you bring that
31:38
Speaker 2: message back to the community, and it quite frankly comes
31:42
Speaker 2: down to tenacity and the sheer will to want to
31:46
Speaker 2: make that happen because there are so many obstacles in
31:50
Speaker 2: the way to get to a ribbon cutting, quite frankly,
31:55
Speaker 2: so just that sheer will and that tenacity to make
31:59
Speaker 2: sure that you know, we said what we would do,
32:01
Speaker 2: we're going to make it better, We're going to assess it.
32:03
Speaker 2: We're going to also have the flexibility to say what
32:07
Speaker 2: is the market done, what is the development need done?
32:09
Speaker 2: So great job moving that forward. But I sort of
32:14
Speaker 2: casually joke and I say, you know, when I did
32:16
Speaker 2: resident relocations, I used to not I used to not
32:20
Speaker 2: need hair dye, but that after some of those projects,
32:25
Speaker 2: it's like whoa, it does take a toll. But again,
32:29
Speaker 2: you know, I come back to that tenacity and that
32:31
Speaker 2: sheer will to want to make it happen and stay
32:35
Speaker 2: engaged with the partnerships. So good job moving that forward.
32:39
Speaker 2: I know it's going to be a roll up your
32:41
Speaker 2: sleeves kind of moment, but you've got the right approach
32:45
Speaker 2: and you're putting all the things in place. Speaking of approach,
32:49
Speaker 2: I want to talk about partnerships. Will you tell us
32:52
Speaker 2: what's happening with connect newer because we've seen a lot
32:56
Speaker 2: of housing authorities. Some of them have gone like just
33:01
Speaker 2: full speed ahead when we talk about digital inclusion, and
33:04
Speaker 2: others have been like, you know, I'm a housing authority,
33:07
Speaker 2: why do I need to do that? So tell us
33:09
Speaker 2: what your approaches and what's happening, so I'll work.
33:13
Speaker 4: I believe in working with our external partners as much
33:16
Speaker 4: as possible because they're gonna have the expertise. I believe
33:20
Speaker 4: that we are a housing authority, we are a landlord,
33:24
Speaker 4: right and my my expertise is property management.
33:29
Speaker 3: I am not an IT company.
33:31
Speaker 4: I do not know fiber optics, so I need to
33:34
Speaker 4: work with people who do who that is their expertise
33:39
Speaker 4: to provide services.
33:40
Speaker 3: For for my community. Right.
33:42
Speaker 4: So I we're very lucky to have the buy in
33:48
Speaker 4: from the city. Working with several nonprofits throughout the city,
33:53
Speaker 4: and the county. Some of our local companies here who
33:59
Speaker 4: do five to provide internet in high speed internet throughout
34:06
Speaker 4: at this point, didn't intend it to be all of
34:07
Speaker 4: our properties, but throughout most of our properties at this point,
34:11
Speaker 4: so we were able to effectuate relationships with them where
34:14
Speaker 4: they were able to do the insult through at least
34:17
Speaker 4: right now, most of our senior buildings, our senior properties
34:21
Speaker 4: moving into our family properties. In some cases it's free.
34:26
Speaker 4: In most cases it's a flat rate per month. You know,
34:30
Speaker 4: initially during COVID it was, you know, ten dollars a
34:32
Speaker 4: month it gets you wireless internet in your unit, and
34:36
Speaker 4: I think it's up to twenty dollars a month now.
34:38
Speaker 4: But that is something that a lot of house authorities
34:40
Speaker 4: don't have. They don't have the fiber optics there to
34:44
Speaker 4: be able to do that. So it has been a
34:46
Speaker 4: blessing for us to have those partners that have that
34:49
Speaker 4: capacity that we've been able to work with to ensure
34:54
Speaker 4: that we have broadband internet throughout our community and working
34:57
Speaker 4: to make sure we have it throughout our portfolio. I'm
35:01
Speaker 4: hoping to have conversations with people in the near future
35:03
Speaker 4: about being able to make it free. But again, That's
35:08
Speaker 4: where I'm shooting for. If we can find some other
35:12
Speaker 4: philanthropic organizations that can help us bridge the gap to
35:15
Speaker 4: make sure it's a nominal.
35:16
Speaker 3: Fee, I'm all for.
35:18
Speaker 5: But the intent, especially given what we live through of COVID,
35:22
Speaker 5: of hey, broadband internet is something that everyone needs, is
35:27
Speaker 5: very quickly becoming a need as opposed to a luxury
35:31
Speaker 5: as some people see it.
35:34
Speaker 2: So we've talked about your leadership, We've talked about Newark,
35:37
Speaker 2: We've talked about your vision and your future plans. I
35:42
Speaker 2: want to talk about you now specifically. You are a veteran,
35:48
Speaker 2: you are a community member, You're involved in Alpha Phi
35:51
Speaker 2: Alpha And I once had a person tell me, if
35:55
Speaker 2: you want to get another person, ask them what kind
35:58
Speaker 2: of projects outside of their day job really really drives them.
36:04
Speaker 2: So I'm posing that. When I got asked that question,
36:07
Speaker 2: I was like, oh wait, I have a life outside
36:09
Speaker 2: of my job.
36:10
Speaker 3: Hold on, So.
36:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, take a minute here, But I want to ask
36:17
Speaker 2: you that very same question, what drives you personally outside
36:22
Speaker 2: of your day job.
36:25
Speaker 4: So first, you know, I'm a father, right, so that
36:29
Speaker 4: drives me. I have a three year old and I
36:32
Speaker 4: am his jungle gym. I am his ladder. I'm his playmate, right, So,
36:39
Speaker 4: so what drives me every day is making.
36:42
Speaker 3: Sure that I leave my community in a better place
36:47
Speaker 3: than it was when I got there.
36:49
Speaker 4: And I can see that in him every day, right,
36:53
Speaker 4: So when I take a step out of that into
36:55
Speaker 4: my broader community, it really is about giving back. So
36:59
Speaker 4: how can I be of service for me? It's been
37:02
Speaker 4: in the military, it's been working with nonprofits, it's been
37:06
Speaker 4: working with housing authorities, but with with my fraternity, it's
37:10
Speaker 4: it's mentorship of those in our community. It's been currently
37:15
Speaker 4: I'm helping one of the chapters I'm part of white
37:18
Speaker 4: a grant for building a community center so we can
37:22
Speaker 4: service the community better, so we can have centralized resources.
37:27
Speaker 3: And and that was a I thought it was going
37:30
Speaker 3: to be a small lift.
37:31
Speaker 4: As I start to get into this ninety page grant,
37:34
Speaker 4: I'm quickly learning this is a much larger lift than
37:39
Speaker 4: I was I thought it was going to be.
37:41
Speaker 3: But those are the things that that drive me. It's
37:43
Speaker 3: really about.
37:45
Speaker 4: Making sure the community wherever I am, I have been
37:49
Speaker 4: able to be of service of value to that community,
37:52
Speaker 4: whether it's in mentorship, mentoring to me, mentorship through our
37:57
Speaker 4: our our youth, whether it's community serve us projects and
38:01
Speaker 4: that can be done, you know, for writing grants or
38:04
Speaker 4: volunteering on the weekends. Uh, you know we all do
38:07
Speaker 4: the around the holidays of the food banks and things
38:09
Speaker 4: of that nature.
38:10
Speaker 3: Uh. Making sure that that people.
38:12
Speaker 4: Are are which is prevalent now, was making sure that
38:17
Speaker 4: people could be could vote, that they were to register
38:20
Speaker 4: to participate in the democratic process wherever their leanings were,
38:26
Speaker 4: and really just ensuring.
38:27
Speaker 3: That I create a world for my son to live.
38:34
Speaker 4: In that I can say that I helped. So often
38:40
Speaker 4: people in private business are very much concerned about their
38:46
Speaker 4: nuclear family. Have I provided a trust a sum of
38:50
Speaker 4: money for for my offspring, for my family to live
38:53
Speaker 4: good off of, and that's noteworthy. I don't say we
38:57
Speaker 4: we shouldn't do those things, But equally so, it has
39:00
Speaker 4: to be about the greater community and the people they're
39:03
Speaker 4: going to interact with, because, as we've learned, an ounce
39:07
Speaker 4: of prevention is worth much more than a pound of
39:11
Speaker 4: cure on the background. And equally so, we can create
39:15
Speaker 4: communities by which if we invest in people when they're younger,
39:21
Speaker 4: that we don't have to spend five times that much
39:24
Speaker 4: investigate incarceration and reform programs later on in life.
39:29
Speaker 3: So I will just wind to.
39:31
Speaker 4: Effectuate communities in which we can all succeed. We all
39:35
Speaker 4: have opportunities, and however I can be of service in
39:38
Speaker 4: that community, I'm there.
39:42
Speaker 2: Thank you for that perspective, because it's encouraging to hear
39:47
Speaker 2: that feeding into people, your family, your staff, the community,
39:53
Speaker 2: that there is a moment where all of a sudden
39:56
Speaker 2: you're trying to help somebody else, but you're recognized in
40:00
Speaker 2: the stakes. Right if you don't, if you just you know,
40:03
Speaker 2: stay at home and watch Netflix every night, or whatever
40:06
Speaker 2: it is. But thank you for that encouragement. It's a
40:09
Speaker 2: reminder to us all and those of us who have
40:12
Speaker 2: worked in affordable housing for so long. You know, I
40:16
Speaker 2: like to say that it is a perspective of a
40:19
Speaker 2: hand up moment, and however we're doing that, it's it's
40:24
Speaker 2: a good reminder. So as we close out, is there
40:27
Speaker 2: anything we miss that you want to cover? We've covered
40:31
Speaker 2: a wide array, but feel free to close us out
40:33
Speaker 2: on one last note.
40:35
Speaker 4: Here, you know, I think there is a touch on
40:38
Speaker 4: the differences of being at HUD, especially in a leadership position,
40:44
Speaker 4: and then coming to.
40:45
Speaker 3: A house and authoritium in a leadership position.
40:48
Speaker 4: Because I think these groups often talk past each other
40:52
Speaker 4: and not to each other. And I think the practical
40:55
Speaker 4: perspective is because very so few of us have set
40:59
Speaker 4: in both chain, it's hard to understand what each one
41:03
Speaker 4: is looking for. So they both have their own set
41:05
Speaker 4: of goals that they're trying to achieve, and we have
41:09
Speaker 4: to work with each other to get there. Being that
41:13
Speaker 4: I've sat in both, what I have observed is there
41:17
Speaker 4: definite needs to be more forms by which we can
41:19
Speaker 4: communicate with each other. I would encourage people, if they
41:24
Speaker 4: have the opportunity to try to sit in both chairs,
41:28
Speaker 4: whether you do a couple of years in a hud
41:31
Speaker 4: ROLL or a state housing authority or a state regulator,
41:36
Speaker 4: as well as at a house that they're in a
41:38
Speaker 4: property management position. I'm sure a lot of housers can
41:41
Speaker 4: talk about when they've applied for grants and they sit
41:45
Speaker 4: down and have conversations with the people in DC about
41:49
Speaker 4: why they didn't get that grant, why they didn't get
41:51
Speaker 4: funded for that grant, and they say, well that's on
41:54
Speaker 4: the emergency or well that's not life threatened, and.
41:57
Speaker 3: We're going, wait a minute, how are you defining these things?
42:00
Speaker 4: Right? So We have to be able to understand what
42:05
Speaker 4: it is to be a profity manager, what it is
42:08
Speaker 4: to run a program, to then be able to understand
42:11
Speaker 4: what it is to regulate a program right. And you know,
42:16
Speaker 4: the classic example that I give a lot of people
42:19
Speaker 4: here is you can be an excellent coach, but if
42:23
Speaker 4: you never played football, if you never played soccer, it
42:27
Speaker 4: is going to be a very different conversation that you're
42:30
Speaker 4: having with your players.
42:32
Speaker 3: If you don't know it because you never did it.
42:35
Speaker 4: You can understand it from an academic standpoint, you can
42:38
Speaker 4: understand it from a theoretical standpoint, but until you've been
42:41
Speaker 4: on that field, until you've taken that hit, until you've
42:45
Speaker 4: had the right the grant, until you've had to do
42:47
Speaker 4: the OAP, you don't understand what it takes to do
42:51
Speaker 4: those things.
42:53
Speaker 3: So we have to be able to have.
42:57
Speaker 4: Serious, in depth conversations with those people that sit in
43:01
Speaker 4: the regional offices, with those people that sit in DC,
43:05
Speaker 4: about what it is to be a practitioner of the
43:08
Speaker 4: program as opposed to just time to regulate the program.
43:13
Speaker 4: And equally so as those sit at the House authority,
43:16
Speaker 4: we have to understand what those people in the regional
43:19
Speaker 4: offices as well as DC are trying to effectuate and
43:23
Speaker 4: how we can help back them into the reality of
43:26
Speaker 4: it and figure out what the happy middle ground is
43:30
Speaker 4: because it can't be everyone has to be at ninety
43:33
Speaker 4: six percent utilization. Everyone has to be at ninety five
43:38
Speaker 4: percent occupancy. That may not be realistic in a nine
43:42
Speaker 4: month timefhone. So how can long term we get there?
43:46
Speaker 4: And everyone is able to be part of that process.
43:50
Speaker 4: So I would say that.
43:52
Speaker 2: I completely agree you've made an important distinction, and you're
43:56
Speaker 2: probably one of the few that has the microphone and
44:00
Speaker 2: the experience to be able to make that distinction. So,
44:04
Speaker 2: and you know, the reality is, you know, when you
44:07
Speaker 2: create an arbitrary baseline or expectation, that doesn't always play
44:13
Speaker 2: out in reality. And so there has to be a
44:15
Speaker 2: point where to say, okay, so here's the gaps. Now,
44:19
Speaker 2: how do we solve these gaps? Or what is the
44:22
Speaker 2: expectation for my community still being compliant but realistic and
44:28
Speaker 2: those You're right, those conversations are not happening. And I know,
44:33
Speaker 2: based upon the fans of mister Leonard Spicer, the people
44:37
Speaker 2: who are going to be listening to this are in
44:39
Speaker 2: both of those worlds. So that was a great inclusion
44:44
Speaker 2: for them to all hear.
44:46
Speaker 5: Well.
44:47
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for the time. This has been great.
44:50
Speaker 2: I appreciate what you're doing in Newark and your leadership there,
44:54
Speaker 2: and you're just bringing a well rounded level of experience
44:57
Speaker 2: to housing from both so thank you so much.
45:02
Speaker 3: Thank you for a talk. I really appreciate it.
45:04
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to change Makers with Katie Gore. To
45:07
Speaker 1: find out more about Katie, go to quadel dot com.
45:10
Speaker 1: That's qu A d e l dot com. This has
45:15
Speaker 1: been a production of Forbes Books Radio