Latest / Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast / The Santa Claus Killer - Bruce McArthur

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The Santa Claus Killer - Bruce McArthur · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Christmas is a time for joy giving and togetherness, but
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: today we're diving into a chilling story that casts a
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: dark shadow over the season. One of Canada's most prolific
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: serial killers who prayed on Toronto's LGBTQ plus community. This
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: is the case of Bruce MacArthur, a man who played
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: sants at the Mall while hiding an unfathomable secret.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: My name's Nicole, my name's Ben. And you're listening to
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Wicked and Grim.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: A true crime podcast listener question.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: That it's Christmas Eve.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: Sure is Sann is coming to town.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Officially, Sanna is coming to town.
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: And as soon as the clock strikes noon today, I'm
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: going to start drinking for the next forty eight hours. Really,
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: maybe maybe not.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: I don't yet to hear this, but okay, I.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Want to have I want to have mimosas all day tomorrow,
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: in the morning, at least probably into the after well
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: into the afternoon. And when the clock strikes noon today,
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: I'm going to be having an eggnog and I'm probably
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: going to be having another eggnog.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: After that to get some more eggnog. We don't have enough.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: You said we had enough, but I don't think we
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: do now.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, well I'll go out and get.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: Some later then we're gonna have to stop.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, I'll go out and get some before I have
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: my first eggnog, Just just to make sure we're staying
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: safe on the roads today.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: There you go, oh every day, right, don't drink and
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: drive obviously, of course, but yeah, anyway, Merry Christmas, Happy holidays,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: you know all that jazz.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope you guys are having a good one.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: And you know what, if it's not that good, hey,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: you know what, it doesn't always end up being the
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: best of seasons for everybody. Try and relax, try and breathe.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: We were talking over on our Patreon about trying to
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: slow things down. Maybe just take things in, get yourself
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: a drink, whether it's a hydrating drink, a glass of water,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: maybe it's a coffee, whatever, take some time for yourself,
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: which you need to do, slow things down, just breathe.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Even just five minutes, and maybe even like turn off
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: their Christmas tunes because that shit's depressing. Yes, I don't
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: know what it is, but like, okay, there's been times
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: like my mom passed away before Christmas at one year,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: and I could like not even listen to Christmas music,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: but this year is like I was trying, I'm like,
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: you know what, I'm gonna like listen to this a bit,
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: and like it just does even if you're in a
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: fine mindset, I feel like it makes you sad. And
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know why that is.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Is Yeah, I don't know, there's something. There's something about
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Christmas music that to me just doesn't fit today's society.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: That well, you know, yeah, I don't know. We ended
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: up putting on Christmas chill hop and that was That
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: was a good jam.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. To those who go on YouTube and listen to
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: like some low fied chill hop radio stuff, yeah, that's
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: that's our jam. When we listened like Christmas low fied
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: chill hop, that's yeah.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: And that was good. That was good.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: I didn't feel like I need to just go in
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: the bathroom and cry for five minutes.
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: Understandable. Understandable. But we don't want to take up too
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: much of your time today. I mean, you have probably
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: a lot to do, so we shouldn't be chatting too much.
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: But so before we move on, I do want to
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: make sure we thank our patrons who signed up this week,
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: so thank you, and shout out to Amanda Cahill, Claire
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Nankolis and and Amanda Lynn Tom Awesome, thank you very much.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: We appreciate you guys signing up.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, we really do. We always do.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And we were just doing the over in our
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: little Patreon pre show, and you guys are getting a
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: double header on New Year's Eve because you're getting, hey,
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: the regular episode that's going to be coming out on
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: a Tuesday, which is New Year's Eve, and then the
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: exclusive episode that comes out at the end of every month. Yeah,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: so you're getting a double header and that library is
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: built up pretty good now at this point.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Can't go wrong there, can.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: You definitely not? Definitely not.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we have like a semi Christmasy themed case,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: if you will, today, and that's the case of Bruce.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: MacArthur, which was picked out by our patrons.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: It was actually I should mention that. So yeah, let's
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: dive into the store without wasting any time, shall we.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: Let's do it. Let's hear it.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, So we're heading to Ontario in the nineteen fifties
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: to a little rural town called Lindsey. That's where Thomas Donald,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Bruce MacArthur, or we're going to refer to him as
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Bruce was born, so on October eighth, nineteen fifty one.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: He was born to parents and Ilt MacArthur. The family
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: didn't stay in Lindsay, but they stayed in the general
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: area of the Cowerthee Lakes and lived the farm life.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: The farm life, Okay, love it. I'm also just wanted
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: to point out really quick that I'm loving the fact
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: that you are doing this case.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: It's I know you're different, but I like you, just
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: like you relaxed over there and you just like settled in.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: I like saw it of it from like my perferal
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: vision there.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: I feel like you should be on the couch with
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: a for the blanket, you know, I'll wrap myself up
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: snuggling in sort of thing.
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, buckle up, I guess. And I should just say, like,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: I mean a lot of these these areas I'm saying
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: are not like super well known. So for reference, it's
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: it's the area outside Toronto, gotcha. Most people know probably
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: where Toronto is.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: I just recently did a case that was just north
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: of Toronto. Oh okay, wasn't I'm pretty sure was Toronto? Yeah,
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: I think it was well.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of little outside areas of
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: big cities like that, right, So Bruce grew up with
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: one biological sister and a rotating cast of foster children
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: as their parents opened up their home and took in
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: children needing a home from Toronto, and sometimes they would
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: have like as many as ten extra kids at a
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: time they were fostering. Wow, which I mean, there's such
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: a need for that. So that's awesome.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, good for them. That's just a very busy home.
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: It is. That's a lot of kiddos. The household was
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: also very religious, but interesting enough, each parent had a
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: different faith and like you, I don't feel like you
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: don't superhear that a lot.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: Bruce's mother was Irish Catholic and his father was Scottish Presbyterian,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: and so Bruce supported his mother, which of course added
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: to any religious tension the family may have already faced.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: I just want to say propts to them, because not
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: very often can you have like cohesiveness between like religions
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: in the same house.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like that'd be very hard. I mean
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: I've heard it before. Were like one parent's religious and
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: maybe the other isn't but like to both be of
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: different faith and stuff. That's very unique.
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Usually when a relationship starts like that, there's someone
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: who goes into the other religion, you know.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so wow. So another rift between Bruce and his
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: father may have been his father sensing Bruce's sexual orientation.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: So from a young age, Bruce realized something about himself,
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: and that was that he wasn't into girls. This also
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: caused him not to fit in with the other boys
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: in his school. So, like many others in this you know,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: tight culture of the nineteen sixties, and like in a
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: small town of Ontario, Bruce played along. In high school,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: he started dating a girl named Janice Campbell, probably more
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: to convince himself than anyone else. He continued to repress
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: his sexual feelings, and Bruce and Janice eventually tied the
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: knot when Bruce was twenty three years old and they
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: had two kids, a boy and a girl. Bruce initially
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: worked as a buyer's assistant for Eaton's. Do you remember Eaton's? Like,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, we weren't alive, I don't think, but like,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: I do you recognize that name? It was like an
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: apartment store.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds familiar.
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So he worked there and this later led to
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: a travel a job, traveling as a salesman for McGregor Socks,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: and his family moved to Oshawa. I think that's how
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: he us Oshauwa.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So by day he was on the road working
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: retail gigs in Toronto and Oshawa, and by the weekend
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: he was a regular at church, playing the devoted husband
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: and father. But sometime in the early nineteen nineties, that
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: facade started to crack, as you know, I feel like
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: that's expected that it would.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're wow, like hiding your true self for that long.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: I know, I think that would wear on you.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: I know, I feel like that'd be very hard. And
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: so Bruce came out to his wife Janie, admitting that
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: he was gay and he had actually been sexually involved
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: with men, so he was cheating, which is also terrible. Yeah,
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: most likely something his traveling salesman position kind of gave him,
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: like the freedom an opportunity to do right. Yeah, and
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: it couldn't have been easy for her, but the couple
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: initially decided to stay together. I'm kind of assuming for
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: the kids and maybe like the sense of stability, but
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: this too was short lived once the couple faced some
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: financial difficulties, with Bruce losing his job and their son
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: actually went about finding himself in some legal trouble. I
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: didn't dive into the super a lot. But he was
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: making lewde phone calls apparently to women, whatever the hell
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: that means.
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: Okay, so he's probably, like.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: I think he was, like maybe it's kind of sounded
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: like maybe borderline harassing in a sense.
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was probably doing like almost a Peeping Tom
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: situation sort of thing, without the peeping more of like
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: just the calling, like the same women over and over,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: and like maybe the the heavy breathing, maybe the like
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: I'm dodging myself.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: Or who knows, I don't know. He had too much
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: free time apparently on his hands.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: Right, So I gave myself the creeps with that.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I kind of just notice. I just moved on it.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah I did.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: Oh god.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: So in nineteen ninety seven, the Maarthur's officially separated, and
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety nine they had filed for bankruptcy. So,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: at forty six years old, Bruce packed his bags for
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: a fresh start in Toronto to live the life that
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: he desired, but ultimately This wasn't the kind of fresh
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: start that anyone would have hoped for.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: Done done, done.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. After years of hiding who he was, he embraced
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: his identity and became a regular fixture in Toronto's LGBTQ
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: plus community. He was out proud and he didn't have
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: to live lie anymore, which you know is probably a
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: pretty awesome feeling.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no one should, but no. Yeah.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: He was hanging out in gay neighborhoods like Church and Wellesley,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: which I think is usually referred to as the village,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: soaking up the scene and really immersing himself in the community.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: But all the good things must come to an end.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Bruce had his ups and downs. He was in a
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: long term relationship. I believe it was like about four years,
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: so that's like a decent chunk of time. But it
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: didn't last, and as most breakups do, it hit him hard.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: He started going to therapy where he was prescribed antidepressants.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Around the same time, he decided to launch a landscaping
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: business called Artistic Design, And apparently he kind of attracted
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: like wealthy little old ladies because they felt he was
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: he was a bit charming. Okay, he had that charm
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: to him. On the surface, it seemed like he was
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: rebuilding his life. Business was picking up, he was meeting
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: new people, and he had a knack for creating stunning
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: flower beds and lush gardens. But even as Bruce planted
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: seas and nurtured gardens, something darker was growing beneath the surface.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Not everyone in the LGBTQ community felt the same warmth
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: he radiated to clients. Bruce had gained a bit of
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: a reputation of being obsessive, controlling, and for engaging in
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: rough sex and fetish play.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha, So.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: That was kind of like going around town, I guess, right.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, so he I mean, honestly, it's not surprising when
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: you suppress yourself for that long and then you're finally
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: like free.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: Like I ever thought of it like that actually, but yeah, well,
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: like think of.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: It in this regard when you get the classic the dog,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: when the gates left open and they just go right.
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: It's the same sort of situation, Like he's been repressing,
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: repress saying, and now he can actually be himself and
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: now he's like in overindulging it, yeah, like overdoing it.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, I never I never thought like, even with
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: all my research and reading about that, I never put
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: that together for somebody that makes a lot of sense.
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: It does.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: It does. So some people mentioned you would maybe think
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: twice about getting too close with Bruce. And as those
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: concerns were rising, so were the number of disappearing men
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: from the village. They were disappearing without a trace, and
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: no one could figure out what was going on. For years,
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: it was a mystery, and sadly, for years the police
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: did not connect the dots. So the story of Bruce
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: MacArthur's victims began with and I'm just gonna say I
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: apologize ahead of time. There was some like some names
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: in here that are a little bit hard to pronounce.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: But I'm going to try my best here.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, we got you. We're going to back you
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: up on something. I support you.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: So yeah, the first victim here that we're talking about
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: is Scandalage and we're going to go buy Scanda Navarantum.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: He was a kind and vibrant man who had come
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: to Canada from Sri Lanka in the early nineteen nineties
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: as a refugee. So scandal was building a life for himself.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: He studied at the University of Toronto and later worked
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: at Ryerson University. By the summer of twenty ten, he
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: seemed happy. He recently got a puppy and was absolutely
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: smitten with it, constantly sharing photos and bringing the dog
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: everywhere he went, which I just love puppies and dogs
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: just bring like the just joy in life.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: We would get along with this man.
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, and I feel like too, if you're like lonely
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: or starting out like that's just so perfect just to
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: have this like companion, because it's so nice to come
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: home to, you know, energy, rather than just like a
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: quiet dark house, right.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Right, someone who's there to greet you and they're happy
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: to see you no matter what.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Totally yeah. So when Scanda disappeared in September twenty ten,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: leaving behind this puppy that he loved, it was a
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: massive red flag because you know, normally when you have
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: a dog, you set up a scenario for someone to
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: come check on it or board it or whatever. Scanda
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: was officially reported missing on September sixteen, twenty ten, but
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: the last confirmed sighting of him was earlier that month.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: In the early hours of September sixth, he was seen
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: leaving a Toronto nightclub called Zippers with two unidentified men.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: His friends and family were worried sick, but when they
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: reached out to police, their concerns didn't get the attention
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: they deserved. The police were informed about Scanda's occasional alcohol
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: and drug use, which may have influenced how serious they
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: took his case. To complicate matters, some family members thought
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: he might have gone into hiding because of unresolved immigration issues.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Despite all the speculation, there was no real leads. His
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: friends and family knew something was wrong. Scanda wouldn't just
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: vanish without a trace. Even his laptop, which police eventually seized,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: sat unexamined for years with no evidence of foul play.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: The investigation stalled almost as quickly as it had begun.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: The authorities moved on, but his loved ones did not.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: Dang, do we know what happened to his dog?
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: No?
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: I don't. Oh, okay, I don't. Hopefully, Yeah, I know.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: I'm like almost, I feel like I can't, Like you'd
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: almost could guess, but who knows.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: I hope the dog's okay, Yeah, going to put that
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: out there, or it was okay, I guess at the time.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So then came another disappearance on December twenty nine
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: to twenty ten. And this is where are we here?
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Bazier Phasey vanished under eerily similar circumstances. So Basier, like Scanda,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: had come to Canada in search of a better life.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Originally from Afghanistan, he had immigrated in nineteen ninety nine
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: and was working as a machine operator. He was married
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: with children and appeared to be a devoted family man.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: What Besier's family didn't know was that he was gay,
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: a secret that caused him immerse like immense stress. The
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: night Besier went missing, he told his wife he was
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: meeting a friend instead. He was last seen around eleven
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: PM at Steam Works, which is a gay sauna in Toronto.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: His wife and cousin called repeatedly trying to reach him,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: and when they couldn't, he was reported missing the following day.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: A few days later, on January four, twenty eleven, Bassier's
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: car was found abandoned on Moore Avenue, about ten minutes
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: from the sauna, and the location made no sense to
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: his family. They insisted he had no reason to be
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: in that area, and once again the case went cold.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: There were no clear leads and with you know, his
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: sexuality not being known to his family, important details about
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: his life and where he spent time remained hidden. Gotcha, Okay, yeah,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: so there you're going to see a theme here.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I kind of already am, but I mean, yeah, as
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: more as you talk about more, I have a feeling
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: that theme is going to carry on.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So this is a couple of years later to
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: about two years or so. On October twenty five, twenty twelve,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: Majeet Hamid Kahan and he go like, we're going to
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: go by Hamid here was reported missing. So Hamid, like
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: this year, was originally from Afghanistan. He had been married
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: with two kids, but he was secretly gay, a truth
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: he struggled with even after his divorce and a move
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: into Toronto's LGBTQ Plus district. Despite living in the heart
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: of the gay community, he still found it difficult to
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: fully embrace his identity. The last converm sighting of Hamid
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: was on October fourteenth, twenty twelve, when he visited his son.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: After that, there was nothing, no phone calls, no sightings,
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: just silence. When police went to check his home, there
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: were no obvious signs of foul play, but one detail
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: stood out and that was that Hamid had pet birds
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: and they were dead. Oh no, this was completely out
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: of character. He was very meticulous with their care and
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: if he ever had to leave town, he always asked
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: a friend to look after them. This was a clear
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: indication that something was seriously wrong. So at this point
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: there was three men missing from Toronto's LGBTQ plus community.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: You'd think this would raise some alarms, and maybe it did,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: but there was a disconnect between the disappearances, with no
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: one really seeing the bigger picture.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: Here, gotcha. Okay, so everyone's just kind of like, oh,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: they're all just individual cases, not really drawing them together totally,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: assuming that these people kind of had like secretive lives,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: maybe are into drug use, and who knows what they're
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: off doing. They probably went off on their own free will. Wow.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, And with some of them too, like being immigrants,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: I don't I can't remember if if it was those three.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: We do talk about it at some point with especially
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: with one victim, but like they some of them, you know,
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: were facing potential like deportation or something. So then even
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: if they were missing, like friends and family you know,
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: didn't want to like draw attention to them. Either gotcha, Yeah,
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: which is just it's so fucking.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Sad, no kidding.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: So police did go about launching Project Houston. So this
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: was a task force put together to initially investigate just
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: one of the missing men, and that was Scanda, the investigator.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: The investigation was launched after a man posted on the
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: cannibal web forum Zambian meat. I'd have no idea if
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: that fucking still exists. I thought about googling it and
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: then I was like, fuck, this.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Understandable because I'm was like not, I don't want to
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: deal with that shit.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: So a man posted on this that he had killed
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: and eaten a man in Toronto, so it was believed
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: that Scanda was murdered by one of the so called members.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: It was actually a man named James Bruton, dismembered and
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: then consumed, which is just all a bit odd. Toronto
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: police eventually concluded James's claim was just fantasy. But the
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: investigation did in the end serve a purpose, and that
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: was that it linked the three missing men's cases. So
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: there was something good that came about this, which you know,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: and I think I didn't really dive into it because
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: I'm sure this James Broughton is like a whole nother
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: fucking case on its own. I don't think he was
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: like the best of people. But in this scenario, it
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: was found that he did not like eat this man.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this was not factual, at least not with
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: this person.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: No, because he was part of this forum forum and
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: he did talk about like eating people, but it was
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: just like a fantasy thing, I guess for him. But
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: then there was also speculation that he might be like
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: a pedophile too, and all that Jazz still not a
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: great person.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: He's a grand kind of individual, isn't he.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: Could you imagine, just like I don't know, going on
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: a form and fantasizing talking about eating people like it.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: It's even interesting that something like that exists out there.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: But anyway, hey, I mean it's the Internet.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, everything exists out there, right yep. So by January
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, during the ongoing investigation, police came across an
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: email address, and this was silver Fox fifty one at
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: hotmail dot com.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: They had no idea at the time that it would
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: eventually lead them to Bruce. For now, it was just
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: another small piece and a very complicated puzzle. The idea
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: of a serial killer on the loose seemed to be
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: too far fetched. They didn't really want to believe that.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: In November twenty thirteen, Bruce was actually interviewed by police
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: and connected to two of the missing men, but they
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: didn't dig too deep, and maybe they would have if
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: they were aware of a violent incident Bruce had in
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: twenty eleven where he received a year of house arrest
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: followed by three years of probation. So this was an
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: incident involving Mark Henderson. He was an actor, model and
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: nursing student, and Bruce ended up following Mark into his apartment.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: It's unclear how well these two knew each other, if
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: at all, but it was very clear that he wasn't
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: a guest of Marx or anything. Some reports kind of
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: said Mark let him into his apartment. Some said they
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: they did know each other better. I don't know, but anyway,
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: like he wasn't a welcome guess. So without warning, Bruce
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: attacked Mark from behind, clubbing him with an iron pipe
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: out like just like basically like went the fuck to town,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: which is crazy. Mark, thankfully, you know, realized it was
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: like do or die here, and so he fought for
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: his life and was able to fight Bruce off, But
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: when he later reported the incident to police, the police
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: allegedly made light of the crime, which is so weird.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: They made jokes at the scene and like neglected to
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: take a witness statement.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: What the fuck?
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because he was he was quite injured, Like it
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: wasn't just like a little bit of an injury here,
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: this is just me making an acquisition. But Mark at
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: the time was in the escort market. So maybe because
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: of this, they weren't taking him seriously, which I'm not
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: saying is right by no means, but maybe because he was,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: you know, a sex worker of sorts, they just kind
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: of felt that sort of thing happened. I don't know, Well,
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: there is that.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Stigma around police treating sex workers that way. Yeah, so yeah,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: I can see what you're saying. It may not be
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: surprising that that it actually occurred, because hey, that stigma,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, it comes from somewhere.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's too bad too, because Mark even he has
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: come out, come like out and talked about this incident,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: and like like I said at the beginning, he was
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: in most cases kind of introduced as just being a
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: sex worker, but he was also like a model, and
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: he was like a nursing student and stuff too, right,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: so there was like more to him than that.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that anchors me. Yeah, but Devil's advocate. Potentially they're
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: introducing him as a sex worker because authorities are assuming
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: the sex work is what initiated the crime. Yeah, so
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: maybe that's why they're referring to him as a sex worker,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: because that's what links him to this initially. But yeah,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: still not good.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Not okay. Bruce did end up turning himself in for
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: this crime, though, claiming he had blacked out and couldn't
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: remember anything about the attack the attack, also pleading guilty
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: in court.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Then how the fuck did he turn himself in if
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: he didn't remember anything about it?
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: I know, I didn't really get that either.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: It's like I was the one who did that, but
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I don't remember doing it. What the fuck?
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: So he did go about receiving fairly light conditions, and
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I'm assuming is because he, you know, like didn't remember
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: what the hell happened and actually turned himself in. It
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: was also along with psychiatric reports that suggested Bruce was
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: unlikely to commit any further crimes.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: I have a feeling that is some very wrong information
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: shadowing some shits we.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Already know because this was prior to those.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: Oh I see missing, gotcha? Gotcha?
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, well they're just missing at this point, I guess, right,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: So he's late.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: So hold on, those three are missing currently?
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, because member they started this Project Houston. Yes,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Bruce came up, but they didn't know about and I'm
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: going to talk about this here in a minute, they
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: didn't know about his past criminal like these this attack
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: because Bruce's criminal record was allowed to be wiped clean.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: Oh shit, yeah, so like it wasn't it wasn't known
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: that he had had this incident prior to him being
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: interviewed with in regard to these street missing men. Oh fuck,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: okay yeah wow. So so by April twenty fourteen, Project
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Houston was it was done, the case with the cases
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: were left unsolved, and any momentum from the investigation just
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: kind of like fizzled out. So and then, yeah, here's
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: where I say, Bruce's criminal record, you know, it was
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: allowed to be wipe clean, so his past arrest didn't
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: show up anymore, and one checking his background wouldn't see
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: his history of violence.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Shit.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: So in August twenty fifteen, another man would go missing,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Charuche Mamoodi, a forty nine year old originally from Iran.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Charuche was married and had a step son. On the
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: day he disappeared, he left for work but never came home.
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: His disappearance, however, didn't raise raise any alarms. He wasn't
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: part of the Toronto LGBTQ plus community and he wasn't
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: seen in the village, so his case wasn't connected to
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: the earlier missing men for quite some time. For now,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: it was just another unexplained disappearance. Meanwhile, Bruce found himself
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: yet again at the police station in June twenty sixteen
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: for another alarming incident. A man came forward reporting that
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Bruce had nearly choked him to death during a hookup
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: in the back of Bruce's van. According to the victim,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: the encounter started consensually, but took a terrifying turn when
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Bruce became violent and started choking him. The man barely
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: managed to escape and ran straight to police. Bruce, in response,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: again did go about turning himself in. He admitted to
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: the hookup, but claimed that the choking was consensual. According
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: to Bruce, the man had asked him to do it,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: but then freaked out for some reason. And here's the
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: shocking part though, is that the police believed him. Oh,
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: they chalked it up to, you know, a consensual encounter
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: that had gone wrong and let him go. And once again,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Bruce was, you know, walking free, walking free. I think
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: it's almost it's interesting that he goes about turning himself in.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: It is that's almost because it shows that he's having
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: like remorse, you know, like it's it seems very strategic
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: to me.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's remorse.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: I think it shows that he has remorse to the
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: police and to people, I think, but doesn't I'm not
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: necessarily he has it.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: It shows Okay, yeah, it's showing pretend remorse potentially, Yeah,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: it's portraying remorse. There we go. It's portraying remorse. It's
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: not showing remorse. But yeah, I think what he's trying
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: to do is he's trying to say one step ahead.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: He's like, Okay, if someone reports me, I'm gonna do
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: them better and I'm gonna report myself and then I
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: can play victim. And then it's like then you know,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: it can be brushed off.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Rather it's only his story versus the others, like who
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: you know, who are they going to necessarily believe?
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, rather than someone being like reporting you and then
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: you run and you hide, that shows.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Guilt, right, Yeah, yeah it does.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: So if he's all like, oh, you know I was
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: involved in this, you know, I can't believe it went
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: this bad. You know, I really just expecting it, like
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: you know, you play the victim cards sort of thing, right,
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And so yeah, I think he's what he's doing is
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: he's not remorseful, like you say. It portrays remorseful, but
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: he's more so just yeah, trying to to stay ahead
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: of looking guilty.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: There's actually an interview out there where he's talking to
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: police about this this incident, and it's just like so awkward,
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Like it's just so I don't know, so awkward the
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: stuff he's talking about and like the rough sex and stuff.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: And I'm just like, oh my god, what am I
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: watching here? Like it was just a moment where I was,
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: you know, I would never want to be sitting there
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: and because the police are just like okay, you know,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: like I don't know if I could just be listening
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: to this this guy talk about like this rough sex
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: and all this shit and just be like okay, with
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: like no facial reaction whatsoever.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: Well, you just talked about it, and then you did
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: just have no reaction.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: You went Okay, inside I'm just like losing my shit.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, it would be really hard, gotcha.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Well I think you'd be able to do it though.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: You just did do it, so there you go, see see, But.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Then to have to carry on and think about your
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: next sentence and then again he's talking about you know,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: the rough sex. Okay, Like I don't know, it's just
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: so fucking hard.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Anyway, you're about to carry on to your next sentence. Now,
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: see you can.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Do this shit, Oh I guess so. In April twenty seventeen,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Slim Espen was reported missing by his ex husband so Slim,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: originally from Turkey, had struggled to adjust to life in
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Canada after divorcing his husband. He turned to substance abuse
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: for a time, but things were looking up for him.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Just before his disappearance, they seemingly out of nowhere, just
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: like vanished. He was last seen in the village. Yet,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: like the others, his disappearance wasn't initially initially linked to
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: Project Houston or the earlier cases, which you know is
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: an ongoing thing here. Just two months later, in June
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, another man disappeared, and this time it thankfully
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: wouldn't go unnoticed as the others had. Andrew Kinsman was
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: last seen on June twenty eighth, twenty seventeen. Andrew was
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: a beloved figure in Toronto's Gate community, and he was
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: deeply involved in h HIV and AIDS networks and foundations.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: He was known as a kind, generous person who dedicated
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: himself to helping others and supporting his community. When police
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: search Andrew's apartment, they found several red flags. His beloved cat,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: who he doted on, had been left without food and water,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: which was a clear sign that Andrew had not planned
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: to leave. But the biggest clue was on the calendar
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: in his apartment, written on June twenty six, two days
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: before his disappearance, was a single word, and that was bruce,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: along with three PM. So now with the disappearance of
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: another middle aged man from the village, the obvious question
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: was could Andrew's case be connected? So they're finally certain
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: to be like, holy shit, like what's going on? And
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: I think it was because Andrew he kind of he
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: was he would be really missed too, right, like people
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: would like notice that his presence wasn't there. So police
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: wasted no time investigating. They scoured CCTV footage and managed
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: to find a crucial clip. Andrew was seen getting into
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: a red Dodge Caravan at exactly three pm, the time
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: written on his calendar. So here they have a vehicle.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: They just were unable to make out the license plate. However,
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: the specific Dodge Caravan model ended up being a unique addition,
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: and when they searched the model and the name Bruce,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: only one man popped up, and that was Bruce MacArthur.
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: And now the police had Toronto's most prolific serial killer
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: in their crosshair.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, fuck this guy.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: I know, fuck this guy for sure, like he sucks.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: And I don't mean that like the with the gay
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: stuff right now, I'm talking like, fuck him, you know.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: With the rough section.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not that, that's not what I'm referring to. I mean,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: in your own time whatever, but not with this.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: I'm glad. They clarified that the discovery led to the
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: launch of a new task force. You know, people like
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: their task force.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: I feel like, yeah, we do like the A team right,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: Guardians of the Galaxy.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: August twenty seventeen, it was called Project Prism. The police
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: had linked five missing men together, the original three from
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Project Houston, so there was Scanda, Basir and Hamid plus
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: now Andrew and Salim as police piercings together. Bruce obviously
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: became a major person of interest. Investigators learned he had
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: been interviewed four years earlier during Project Houston and had
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: no connections to some of the missing men. They also
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: uncovered the twenty sixteen choking incident, where he'd been reported
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: for nearly strangling a man during a hookup, but wasn't charged.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: It was all starting to paint a very disturbing picture.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Bruce was placed under twenty four to seven surveillance and
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: investigators kept a close eye on him as he moved
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: in and out of his apartment at ninety five Thorncliffe
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Park Drive. They also collected his DNA and obtained a
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: warrant to seize his red Dodge Caravan. Unfortunately, by the
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: time they acted, Bruce I think was like, you know,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: a ware that he might have been under fire and
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: he had gotten rid of the vehicle shit or so
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: he thought. In October twenty seventeen, investigators found the van
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: and conducted a forensic search. What they uncombed was chilling.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: The DNA of four different men was present inside the vehicle.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: One sample was of course, belonging to Bruce, but another
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: to Andrew, and two more from unknown individuals. As police
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: tailed Bruce, they observed him snapping photos of men in public,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: often like without their knowledge. This is a real kicker.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: They followed him to malls where he worked as a
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: mall santa, which you know, yeah, we kind of chatted about,
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: like what the fuck.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we knew that one was coming.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: This is where I don't think criminal records should be
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: like fully able to be Is the word pardoned? I
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: don't know, because when it comes to working with kids,
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: if you've ever had like a criminal record and it's
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: been pardoned, like, I don't think. I just don't. I
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: don't like this man should not be a mall santa
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: for god's sakes. Yeah that's not okay.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah I don't. I yeah, I agree. I do believe
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: there should be like very special circumstances where like yeah, okay,
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: maybe your your criminal record is erased, but that's like
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: should be like a federal legislation that's really kept tight knit,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: and it's like you have to go through you' a
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: major fucking thing to have that like erase like tenfold
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: on what it already is.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: And probably for something more minor than like bashing someone's
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: head in Yeah.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Right. I feel like it's like, okay, like maybe you
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: did do something bad, you got a criminal record, and
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: then you go to war and you like save your
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: fucking country and then say, okay, you know what, We're
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: going to go with this process and get you a
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: fucking new life because you deserve it exactly. Like those
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: are the situations where I think, maybe, yeah, okay, it
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: could be wiped, not just for some dude who's like, eh,
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: you know what, sure, why not?
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah? I don't want this record, so like let's get
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: rid of it. By this point, the evidence was overwhelming.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: The DNA, the photos, the connections to the missing men.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: It all pointed to one conclusion, and police finally said
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: what everyone had been dreading. We have a serial killer.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: The next step was to search Bruce's apartment and digital devices,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: so on January eighteen, twenty eight teen, the police were
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: ready to take down Bruce once and for all. Armed
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: with a warrant, they busted into his apartment and what
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: they found was straight out of a nightmare. First, if
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: the evidence wasn't enough, Bruce had had a man he'd
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: met through a gay dating website handcuffed to his bed,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: thankfully still alive.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: I mention that man was terrified.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it's from I mean, there isn't a shit
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: ton of information out there, but he was like planning
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: to kill him, so wow.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Because yeah, I mean, he could have been handcuffed to
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: the bed and like really happy, or he also could
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: have been handcuffed to the bed and really terrified. One
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: of those two.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: And I think it was one. See I couldn't find
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: a shit a shit ton on it, but one source
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: did say the guy had like a plastic bag on
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: his face and Bruce was like in the process of
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: going about like you know, cutting off his airflow and shit.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know, so I don't know if they were
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: still in like the funds age of shit or if
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: it's like gone past that, but anyway, it was that's
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: like a scene from a movie. Really, someone's you know,
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: basically kind of on their deathbed and the police bargin
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: and like they're saved. That's kind of it's good.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that it's like every episode of CSI
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: you know, actually actually yes.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: As they searched, they found more deeply disturbing evidence. On
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Bruce's laptop, they discovered over a hundred photographs of Andrew,
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: as well as pictures of many other men. Among them
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: were images taken in Bruce's bedroom. On a USB. They
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: discovered nine folders, each labeled with the name or in
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: some cases, a description of one of the victims. And
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: we have talked about not or no, I think we've
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: only talked about six individuals. But of one of those
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: folders was the man that was like handcuffed to the bed.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: He had photos in there of him like alive. Oh shit,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: So you know that there was going to be added
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: because inside we're photographs of victims, often taken after death
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: and post So after killing his victims, Bruce would pose
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: their naked corpses for photos, sometimes dressing them in like
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: for coats and hats and placing cigars in their mouths.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: Placing cigars in their mouths. Yeah, that's an interesting detail.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: So I don't know if that that got got him
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: going or what I mean there's a whole lot there
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: because he's probably he's posing them for his own his
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: When you're posing someone like that, it is for yourself.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And then with these photos and I mean memories
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: as well to go with it. I mean, that's that's
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: the definition of a spank bank right there.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, it's like my my upper body is so
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: tight right now because the skuy just like pisses me off.
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: He gives the creek it's uncomfortable.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I wholeheartedly understand, but yeah, that's that's like walking
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: the line of like that necrophilia.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Right, oh, one hundred percent. Yeah, But as far as
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: I know, he wasn't. I mean, but who the hell
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: knows what the hell he was doing right afterwards. But
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: as far as we know, he wasn't necessarily having I
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: just quotated like you could see that intercourse with the disease.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: It's very possible he could have because I mean, how
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there is going to be some signs and
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: things that investigators can find in forensics. But if he's
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: you know, having relations with these individuals and then killing them,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: what's to say that like he can't have relations again?
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: And then because it was pre and post Yeah, that
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: the signs are like mixed and you can't tell.
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: I know, I'm sure that I'm sure he did some
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: indacent things that you know, no one will really ever know.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: I do imagine that they're I do want to clarify.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: I'm sure there are signs post mortem rather than pre
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: but it would be much harder to determine, you know.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. In some of the images, the victims were also
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: photographed naked with ropes tightly tied around their necks. It
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: soon became clear that this was the murder weapon. Bruce
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: had used a metal bar with rope attached to strangle
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: his victims. So he was twist the bar, oh to
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: tighten Oh the knots. I guess, like I don't just
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: even visualizing that his horride.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: So he like wraps the rope around their neck and
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: the hand.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Then twists the bar.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just slowly tightens more.
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: I don't even know how you would go about, you know,
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: getting yourself really out of that.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Oh you fucked. Yeah, he's got too much leverage. You
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: can't do it.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay, Bruce, all right, Yeah, we're just gonna move
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: on from that, because that is just thinking about that
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: way of death is something Bruce had meticulously documented his crimes,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: keeping gruesome trophies in digital form. Police also discovered that
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Bruce cap a journal where he detailed some of his killings.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: So he wasn't really hot. He was hiding shit, but
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: he wasn't hiding shit in his home.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: I guess how not how to get caught one on one.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was arrested on the spot, charged with first
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: degree murder and hauled off in handcuffs. With Bruce and custody.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: Police turned their attention to his landscaping business and one
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: particular property in the Lee Side neighborhood of Toronto where
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: he had a deal. He you know, stored equipment there
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: because they had space in return for him doing some
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: yard work. So good averdogs were brought in and lead
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: investor or led investigators storry to large planter boxes among
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: the property. Inside.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Oh that's where yeah, yeah, I know where this is going.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: Oh God. Inside inside they found several sets of human remains.
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: Officers spent week set the Lee Side property, which they
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: referred to as Ground Zero due to the amount of
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: evidence found there. In the end, seven sets of dismembered
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: remains were found in planters and an eighth was found
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: in a ravine near the property.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: Eight Wow okay, yeah shit.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: And can you just imagine too this, This fucking dude
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: is just like your landscaper, but he has access to
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: your property and he's just freaking like these beautiful planter
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: boxes that you probably have going up to your property,
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: you know, at the bottom of them is just a
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: decay and corpse.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: Which in turn would fertilize the plants really well.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: So you're probably just tickled pink that they were doing
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: so well and little did you know, right, Oh my gosh,
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: I don't even know how you could go boat living
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: in there again, like in your home.
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's dark as fuck.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So the remains belong to six of the missing
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: men we have previously talked about, but there were also
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: two a day victims police hadn't known about before. So
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: I apologize ahead of time. It's hit this name, it's
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Kirshnama Kermar kind of garnum. My apologies to you. I
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: know you have a beautiful name. It's just very hard
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: to pronounce. So he was also a refugee from Sri
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: Lanka who had been trying to avoid deportation. He lived
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: in twenty or he disappeared in twenty fifteen, and he
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: was living homeless. So I mean, like just someone that
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: you know could very easily go to tech detected, undetected, detected.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: I thought you're going to say, go to Texas. For
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: a minute, I was like.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: What which is Bruce's m O.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, trying to find those that yeah, can fly
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: under the radar without being missed.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then the second one was Dean Lisa Wick,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: a former bar worker who had struggled with addiction and
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: became a sex worker. He was last seen in April
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: twenty six So in the end, Bruce was charged with
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: the murders of eight men. His chilling, trophy keeping and
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: methodical planning left no doubt that he was a predator
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: who had been hiding in plain sight for years. But
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: thanks to a combination of police work and timing, Bruce's
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: final victim escaped and the reign of terror finally came
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: to an end. In twenty eighteen, Bruce was charged with
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: the first degree murder of all eight men. By January
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, he pled guilty, which I do have to say,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: I appreciate when these fucking people just pleaded guilty to
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: things because this spared the families of his victims the
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: agony of like a lengthy trial.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, however that is very much so up his alley.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: To Yeah, pleaded.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: Actually he went in and admitted it constantly, right he did.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, trying to.
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: Stay ahead and trying to like, you know, almost be
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: that victim. I'm so sorry, you know whatever, And that's
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: he's still doing it.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true. I mean, he's still like the most
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: piece of shit person out there. But it does save
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: money and puts people through less of agony, I guess.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but it does go to show that, Yeah, he
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: doesn't have remorse, because if he had that remorse the
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: other incidents when he came forward to police, he would
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: have stopped.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: So it's not that he's remorseful he I mean he is.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: He's just remorseful that he got caught and he's trying
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: to make himself seem a bit better.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: So Bruce was sentenced to life in prison with no
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: possibility of parole until he's ninety one years old, which
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: you know, some people did have an issue with. I
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: think it's like twenty or no possibility of pearl for
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: twenty five years. But it was basically like, it's unlikely
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: that he'll ever be granted this and he'll most likely
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: die behind bars.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Rot.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah good. The Toronto Police are came under intense scrutiny
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: during and after the case. Of course, they were heavily
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: criticized for their handling of the missing person's investigations, with
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: allegations of racism and bias influencing how seriously the disappearances
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: were taken. This lack of urgency gave Bruce the time
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: and the opportunity to continue praying on vulnerable men. The
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: fallout exposed systematic issues in how missing persons cases were handled,
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: particularly when they involved marginalized communities. And that, my friends,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: is the case of Bruce MacArthur, the Santa Claus killer.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Bruce mcasshole mix, piece of shit, make piece of shit,
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: piece of shit. That is a good name for him, Yeah,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: Bruce mcpiece of shit.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I do you want to say, like at
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: the beginning, when he was I don't want to say forced,
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: but damn near forced. Probably you could say forced. When
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: he was let's say forced, fuck it, when he was
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: forced to hide him true self and like lock that
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: part of him away and then finally he was able
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: to live his life and he went and like I said,
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: the gates left open, and the dog fucking goes and
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: he just takes it way too far. Yeah he's fucking
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: locked up again now. Yeah, before he didn't deserve it,
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Now he fucking does. You can't live your life like that.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: Fuck you Like, yeah, you deserve to be locked up now.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: I know I should say too, Like, this case was
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: very heavy on the perpetrator, which we don't love to do,
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: but there isn't even like a shit ton of information
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: on all of his victims, and you know, he went
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: about choosing them them for a reason, and so I
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: almost feel like I have to apologize that this case
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: was so, like Bruce MacArthur heavy, But they are sometimes right.
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: Sometimes the story is about the killer. Yeah, we like
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: to really highlight, Yeah, you're right, the victims whenever possible,
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: But yeah, sometimes it's we tell the story of a
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: killer and how they are make piece of shit.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean none of his victims deserved any of that, No,
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: definitely not. They did. Like there was speculation too that
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: there could be so many more victims because he did
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: start this like quite late in his life, right, Like
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: serial killers don't necessarily start the process when they're like
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: in their late forties or fifties. Yeah, but the police,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: like said, they went they went through like all so
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: many disappearances and tried to connect and stuff. But these
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: eight were the only ones that they really could.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: So, but like you said, there's some that were like
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: facing deportation and may have never been you know, reported missing,
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: may have been assumed that they left the country.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Well, they went about finding all these bodies, so I'm
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: sure that they probably they they went about all looking
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: through all of the places. He did is landscaping, right,
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: but there could be a place he hit a body
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: somewhere else exactly.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Well put it this way, Yeah, he buried some bodies
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: on these properties with his landscaping business. Right now, with landscaping,
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: what's something else that you do. You do removal, think weeds,
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: think removal of soil, to put in rock gardens, that
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: sort of stuff. Who's to say he didn't put bodies
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: in this removal that were then taken off to these
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: like composting landfills that are now like thirty feet underground.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: Well, because there could. But he also kept the folders
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: right and there was only nine, true, but maybe that
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: he killed a couple of people before that, Yeah, exactly.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: One thing I did watch too was one of the victims.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: I'm not certain which one it was, but they hadn't
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: been reported, and so the police actually went about sharing
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: like a photo of this man's face, like and he
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: was deceased, you know, trying to identify him and stuff,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: which oh, just just terrible.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: That is wow.
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Nick, piece of shit. So we'll ended that.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: Well, good job in the case, and thank you to
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: our patrons for suggesting that one.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, no, it was good that they suggested it. It's
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: so funny though, Oh has to do this because I
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: think because there was like teeny bits of like neck
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: potential necrophilia, cannibalism.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: And you have a history of doing the next space.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: Is I should just blow you all out of the water.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: And they're all cannibalism, all necrophilia.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: Just as like gross as you can get. Yeah, you
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: should do it. But yeah, if you want to join
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: our community over on Patreon, you can go ahead. There
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: is a link down below. We'd appreciate you and would
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: love to see you there. We have a bunch of
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: other links in the description of this podcast as well, website, YouTube, Facebook, Instagram,
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: it's all there. Yeah, thank you for being here, Thank
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: you for going over checking those links. If you want
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: to support us an indie podcast who is produced, hosted, written,
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: all of it on our own, we would really appreciate it.
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: Maybe you can give us a review that helps the
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: show a lot. So thank you so much for being here,
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: for doing the things you do, and we want you
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: to have a merry.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: Christmas, holidays, holidays, enjoy enjoy this festive time of.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: Year, Yes we did. We want you to enjoy it thoroughly. Okay,
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: and don't be a.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: Macasshole, a make piece of ship, make.
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: Piece of shit. Sorry, I already got it. I think
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: I called him a macasshole earlier before the mike piece
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: of ship. So that's that's why I reverted.
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: Back.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Piece of shit is better than macass.
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, don't be a make piece of ship.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, think about your actions. We're spiraling anyway until our
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: next episode.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Stay Wicked and Merry. I like it, Yeah, I do,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: I do. Okay, we'll stay Wicked and Mary