Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 141 - Spyros Papapetropoulos - CEO Phragma Therapeutics

Transcript

Episode 141 - Spyros Papapetropoulos - CEO Phragma Therapeutics · The BioHub - by Avetix

0:06
Welcome back to the Bio Hub podcast by Avetix.
0:09
Today, I'm joined by Doctor Spiros Papa Petropolis, A
0:14
neurologist, neuroscientist and biopharma executive who is CEO
0:18
of Neutoria Therapeutics and Fragma Therapeutics.
0:21
Spiros has spent nearly 30 years developing therapies across CNS
0:25
from discovery through global approval, spanning small
0:28
molecules, biologics, and gene therapies, with leadership roles
0:32
across start-ups and major biopharma.
0:35
In today's episode, we'll talk about where CNS drug development
0:38
is heading and energizing the CNS bio biotech ecosystem and
0:42
what it takes to build or transform A biotech and the
0:45
leadership principles behind the work.
0:48
We'll also dive into Spiros's book, Mind Odyssey, and the real
0:51
experiences that shaped it. Spiros, welcome to the show.
0:55
Ben, thank you for hosting me. I appreciate the invitation.
0:59
Looking forward to our chat. Yeah, no, no worries.
1:02
So I mean, to begin with, just take us through your journey a
1:05
little bit. I mean, you know, what were the
1:06
key chapters and decisions that led you to the roles that you're
1:09
in today? Thank you very much.
1:10
And I'm going to use a theme from my book.
1:15
As you can imagine, I've done a lot of I've reflected a lot on
1:19
my career trajectory in order to come up with mine Odyssey.
1:25
And if I look back at my career, the thread that connects
1:28
everything is really purpose. Very early on, I realized that
1:32
what I wanted to do with my life was to help patients overcome
1:36
disease. And that idea was there is a
1:40
little bit of influence from my family.
1:43
I come from a family of physicians, and this idea became
1:48
kind of a compass for me. And that's what led me to
1:51
medicine in the 1st place. But alongside purpose, I was
1:56
also driven by curiosity. And I've been always, I've
2:00
always been fascinated by the hardest problems in biology, in
2:05
human biology. And when you think about it, the
2:08
brain is really the final frontier of human Physiology.
2:13
There is still so much that we don't understand about it.
2:17
And, and that mystery and the challenge to solve it or try to
2:20
solve it pulled me towards neurosciences and, and made me
2:24
become a neurologist. So, you know, if I wanted to
2:29
divide then my career into chapters, there have been really
2:34
3 chapters. You know, the 1st chapter was
2:37
academia or academic medicine or practicing medicine where I
2:41
trained and work as a physician scientist.
2:43
OK, I'm still board certified. I can still see patients.
2:46
I still do. I volunteer, I do volunteer work
2:49
and I see a lot of neurology patients.
2:53
And that was a very formative period for me, taking care of
2:58
patients, doing research, teaching and trying to better
3:02
understand disease. So that's was kind of like a
3:05
decade of my career. The 2nd chapter was completely
3:10
different. And we're going to talk about
3:11
transitions and how this came about.
3:15
But the second chapter was the large biopharma company world,
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and that's where I shifted my focus from the individual
3:26
patient to the larger group of patients that I was trying to
3:32
develop drugs for, driven by the same purpose, help patients.
3:37
And that's where I really learned how medicines are
3:42
developed and how discoveries can eventually turn into
3:45
something tangible and into therapies that can reach
3:49
patients. The 3rd chapter, and here's what
3:53
I am today, like the tail end of another decade, is this
3:57
entrepreneurial chapter, you know, building companies,
4:00
focusing on developing new therapies.
4:03
And you know, if, if I look back, each of these phases have
4:07
been incredibly rewarding in so many ways.
4:10
And they build on each other. So, you know, I don't think that
4:17
I would be the person that I am today or have the same
4:21
perspectives if I did not experience all three transitions
4:26
and career phases. So my path has evolved from the
4:32
physician, scientist, good developer to an entrepreneur,
4:36
but my purpose hasn't really changed.
4:38
And that's, you know, where the grounding was in the purpose,
4:43
which happened early in my career.
4:45
Hopefully for me, it started by kind of one patient at the time,
4:49
expanded the teaching and mentoring.
4:51
And today means helping develop patients, building companies and
4:56
potentially helping thousands of patients, even millions if we're
5:01
lucky. So the thing that I've learned,
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and we're going to discuss about it is that careers are very
5:11
rarely linear, OK? They, they do not follow a
5:15
straight line. You know, we all face unique
5:18
circumstances and you cannot separate professional from
5:22
personal life. Our brain does not separate
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them. And, and, and really during
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these moments and during these transitions, it's really
5:33
important to be guided by purpose rather than things like
5:36
power, money, fame. And don't get me wrong, there's
5:41
nothing wrong with those things. You know, I, you know, but but
5:47
if they're the only drivers, they can lead you in directions
5:51
that don't necessarily align who with who you are.
5:56
And, you know, and, and if you do this, if you take time to
6:00
think through your situation, avoid making hasty emotional
6:04
decisions and following the next shiny thing, the promotion, the
6:08
money, the car instead of your purpose, you know, you, you
6:15
know, if, if you avoid the shiny things, you're eventually going
6:19
to land where you're supposed to.
6:21
And yeah, so, so that's an answer to your, to your, to your
6:27
first question. I hope I covered some ground
6:29
there. But purpose has stayed with me,
6:33
has stayed the same, helping patients overcome disease.
6:38
And that has grounded me and allowed me to move from face to
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face to face with the same type of motivation, excitement.
6:49
Yeah, I think that that's probably something that you see
6:51
quite consistently across some of the best entrepreneurs within
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the world, no matter the industry.
6:57
You know, they have something that's a lot stronger, a lot
6:59
deeper that really drives them and that that really kicks in
7:03
when you hit any form of obstacle.
7:05
To be able to overcome that and route yourself back to an
7:08
original purpose, you know it must be a really strong thing.
7:11
Yes. And the the secret ingredient
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here is that you need to take time to develop your purpose
7:20
early on. And most of us are not taught
7:26
how to develop purpose. It's there's a, there's a method
7:30
and it's all based on neuroscience and it's all based
7:33
on training. So there is a way to train your
7:35
brain to go after a purpose that is fulfilling and altruistic
7:40
instead of going after something that is shallow.
7:46
Something is that is a tool, sort of like money.
7:49
Money is good, but it's just a tool.
7:53
It's not a purpose. It's not going to help.
7:56
It's going to help you succeed in some ways, but it's going to
8:01
create issues in some other ways.
8:04
So you know it's a tool, not the end goal.
8:09
Yeah, exactly. And I mean, you know you
8:11
mentioned there in your career path you've worked across both
8:14
big pharma and start-ups in CNS for a pretty long time now.
8:18
What, from your perspective, really allows you to separate
8:22
programs and teams that make real progress from those that
8:26
stall? That that was the question that
8:29
I you know that I've spent a lot of of time on, you know, how do
8:34
you build high functioning, productive and fulfilled teams.
8:41
OK. If I look across my experience
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in both big pharma and start-ups, even in academic
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environments, not, you know, this is not a recipe for
8:51
everything, but just some very high level thoughts.
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A few things consistently separate the progress and teams
8:58
that really move the needle from those that stall.
9:01
You know, first, I always go back to scientific curiosity
9:06
because just it matters a lot. The teams that make progress are
9:11
the ones that are genuinely interested in understanding the
9:16
biology and willing to ask the difficult question.
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CNS is an incredibly complex space.
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If you approach it with a rigid mindset, you're going to
9:26
struggle from the get go. The second factor is
9:31
professional integrity. OK.
9:34
And in drug development, especially in CNS, it's very
9:40
easy to convince yourself because you know there are so
9:42
many moving parts, so many unknowns.
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You can easily convince yourself that the data that you're
9:47
looking and the signs that you are managing are actually better
9:52
than they really are. So the teams that succeed are
9:55
the ones that look at signs honestly, make tough calls when
9:59
needed, and they stay grounded. You know, you have to make the
10:03
tough decisions. You cannot drink your Kool-aid,
10:06
OK. The third element is our ability
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to actually connect what we're doing, connect science with real
10:15
world problems and ultimately business outcomes.
10:19
And that's the trickiest part. Scientists are not great
10:23
businessmen and at times vice versa.
10:26
So it's not enough to have an interesting biology, you have to
10:30
translate it into faction that actually that's something that
10:34
is helpful to patients and can become a viable therapy that can
10:39
find itself on the shelves and sell.
10:42
OK. So for people to get treated,
10:46
they get need to get exposed to the to the therapy and they need
10:50
to be able to buy it and use it. So that is that is an element
10:56
that early companies that are routed in science do not
11:00
realize. You have to start working on
11:01
these concepts early on. What is the biggest driver?
11:05
I left it for the for as as as my last comment is the human
11:09
factor. OK?
11:11
No matter how much curiosity you have, how integrity, if you
11:17
don't have the right people, you're probably not going to get
11:22
places. So you know, and, and over time
11:26
I've noticed something very simple.
11:28
You know, when you avoid the necessary friction, things like
11:32
workplace drama, politics, people playing power games,
11:38
teams tend to perform much better.
11:42
Yeah. OK, so drug development is
11:44
incredibly hard. CNS drug development is even
11:47
harder. The last thing that team needs
11:49
is friction slowing them down. So you know, just to recap,
11:56
environments that work best for me are the ones that where
12:02
people respect each other, deep respect, understand each other's
12:06
roles and are willing to embrace different perspectives and
12:10
needs. Almost you have to ask the
12:11
question not what's a need for me, but what's a need for my
12:16
colleagues. So when you get the science
12:20
right connected to real world impact and build this, I don't
12:25
like necessarily like the world culture, but this mindset when
12:29
because when people talk about culture, there's a cultural
12:32
issue in the company. So you know, build this mindset
12:35
where people can collaborate with without the necessary
12:39
fiction. That's really when you start
12:41
seeing progress happen. Yeah.
12:44
And, and, and on paper, it seems as though that should be, you
12:47
know, it sounds as though it's a pretty easy thing to, to do.
12:49
But in reality, getting all four of those aspects working pretty
12:53
smoothly together is, you know, is one of the hardest things to
12:55
do. And that's why being successful
12:57
is, is so difficult. I mean, over the past couple of
13:01
years, we've seen CNS as an industry advance quite, quite a
13:05
lot. And I think, I mean, I'm quite
13:07
excited about where the space is currently.
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But, but how would you currently describe the state of the CNS
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biotech ecosystem and include both, both Neuphoria and Fragma
13:16
within that? Obviously they're your.
13:17
They're your best bets in terms of data points.
13:20
Yes, yes, absolutely. I actually think it's a very
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exciting moment for CNS research, and I've been an
13:28
evangelist for, you know, the last two decades of the brain in
13:34
many ways, we've never been better equipped to make
13:36
progress. There has been an explosion of
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tools that allows the brain from advanced imaging, biomarker
13:46
genetics, computational approaches, and with AI, we are
13:52
more than ever able to connect patterns and signals across data
13:56
sets in ways, in unprecedented ways.
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The things that we can do today weren't even at an individual
14:04
level as professionals were not possible a decade ago.
14:10
So from a scientific and technological perspective, the
14:13
field has, the CNS field has incredible momentum.
14:18
But at the same time, OK, I'm going to state the obvious here.
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They're stuck in a mindset from the past.
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So many of the frameworks we use develop.
14:30
CNS therapies were built decades ago.
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For example, we still rely heavily on studying large
14:38
patient groups that rather than trying to identify subsets of
14:43
disease or truly personalizing and terror treatment.
14:48
Yet we know that No2 patients have exactly the same disease.
14:52
OK. We do have a limited ability to
14:57
explore combinations of novel therapeutics or experimental
15:01
therapeutics and in many cases this is a necessary approach to
15:09
treat the complex brain disorders.
15:12
Typically when a brain disease manifests, there is a variety of
15:20
mechanisms that are failing. And despite all the new
15:25
scientific tools, there's another concept that I just want
15:29
to bring up that we have still have a rely on animal models
15:35
that often fail to recapitulate human disease.
15:39
Unfortunately, rodent biology or even higher primate biology that
15:47
does not recapitulate what's happening in humans.
15:51
OK, you mean, and there are many ways, I don't want to get too
15:54
technical, but we still rely on on animal models as the primary
16:00
source of our translation. If you look at clinical
16:04
development per SE, I'm going to go back to trials in CNS.
16:11
The trials today still still look very similar.
16:14
We're the ones that we were running decades ago.
16:17
OK, so what's what's really wrong?
16:20
We do have the tools. There is a lot of technological
16:25
advancement. Biology is generating a lot of
16:28
interesting new targets. But the bottom line is the
16:33
bigger pressure point for the ecosystem today, and I've been
16:37
saying this for quite some time now, that biology and technology
16:43
have surpassed our human ability to test it.
16:48
So we know we're, we're, we're, we're driving a, a self driving
16:56
car and, and, and, and trying to do it in with, with a mindset of
17:03
20 years ago, it's almost impossible.
17:07
You know which we, you know, the car can drive itself, but we're
17:10
still trying to influence it in a way that we cannot get
17:14
anywhere. Yeah.
17:15
So we, we have so much potential, there's so many
17:19
targets, much deeper understanding of disease
17:21
complexity and our current clinical trial infrastructure
17:28
cannot realistically cope with it.
17:30
Our experimental toolbox has expanded, but our development
17:34
frameworks, and I'm not going to blame just the regulators
17:38
because the regulators are doing what, you know, their job.
17:42
We, we developers are doing our job, but we tend to meet in the
17:47
middle ground and we're not in we're not influencing change
17:52
fast enough. You know, new technologies are
17:55
often adopted slowly and when they're used, they're usually in
18:00
this early proof of concept human studies that rather than
18:05
being fully integrated into development programs.
18:10
And again, I'm not going to belabor it.
18:13
There are a few fundamental scientific realities of CNS
18:17
diseases. We talked about the animal
18:20
models, we talked about clinical trials, but we do have in CNS,
18:25
we're still lacking the level of objective measurements that are
18:29
needed. We, it's not, it's, these are
18:31
not like Alzheimer's disease or schizophrenia.
18:34
This we cannot take the pause of schizophrenia.
18:37
We cannot take the blood pressure of Alzheimer's disease.
18:40
We still rely on these, you know, subjective measures that
18:45
are prone to interpretation and that creates multiple issues. 1
18:51
is that we cannot effectively observe the effects of an
18:57
experimental therapeutic approach.
19:00
And the second is, but when we do, there's a lot of bias, what
19:05
we call the, you know, placebo effect, which is great in
19:07
clinical practice. We love seeing patients as
19:10
physicians improve just by the sheer thought of improving.
19:16
But in clinical trials, it's not that helpful because it resets
19:21
the bar for efficacy. It's a valid scientific
19:24
methodology, but it creates inherent issues under
19:29
circumstances. So we really need to rethink how
19:32
we study disease, how we design trials, and how to integrate new
19:37
tools in drug development. Yeah.
19:40
I mean, over the next 5 to 10 years, how do you really think
19:44
that CNS drug development is going to change?
19:46
And what do you think is going to be the biggest defining
19:49
aspect of the next era of CNS drug development?
19:53
Well, we, we touched on some of these, these themes already, you
19:58
know, if, if, if I look at the next 5 to 10 years, I think the
20:03
next era of CNX drug development will be defined by a few major
20:10
shifts. First, I think more personalized
20:14
approaches. I'm not, I'm, I don't think that
20:18
in five and 10 years we're going to reach full personalization,
20:23
but. Considering the heterogeneity of
20:26
brain diseases, that No2 patients have exactly the same
20:31
disease and the underlying biology is by default a little
20:35
different than everyone, The idea of a single therapy
20:40
targeting a single mechanism that work broadly is probably
20:44
too simplistic. And that's what we're doing
20:46
today. I mean, I think we'll see more
20:50
complex biological strategies with multiple mechanism of
20:55
actions modulated at the same time focus rather than focusing
21:00
on just one pathway. And the second shift that we
21:05
will probably see is the shift to an earlier intervention and
21:10
ideally prevention. And I always like examples
21:13
because you know, people relate to examples.
21:17
You know, take Alzheimer's disease.
21:19
Perfect example. We know that the biology or the
21:25
underlying pathophysiological process of the disease starts in
21:30
Alzheimer's. It starts decades before the 1st
21:32
symptoms appear, even in the MCI minimum.
21:37
Minimum cognitive impairment, space neuronal damage, and
21:42
degeneration starts probably a decade or two beforehand.
21:47
Yeah. Over the past years, we've made
21:50
great progress, for example, in removing amyloid excess from the
21:55
brain and in treating symptoms by modulating certain
22:00
neurotransmitter deficiencies. Again, the whole point is not
22:03
become technical for our podcast, but we've made some
22:06
progress. But if we ask ourselves
22:09
honestly, have we changed or altered in any shape or form
22:15
Alzheimer's disease or the lives of patients with Alzheimer's or
22:22
their families, I would say not really.
22:25
I would say that we understand the disease a lot better.
22:28
We have a way to track and monitor the disease a lot
22:31
better. We have ways to diagnose the
22:34
disease a lot better. We've studied interventions as
22:38
single approaches. Have we achieved something
22:41
major? No.
22:43
So the shift over the next decade will be detecting disease
22:48
much earlier as years before symptoms using biomarkers and
22:52
technologies that actually even today exist but adopting them,
22:58
monitoring the progression from asymptomatic to pre symptomatic
23:03
to symptomatic and intervene before significant damage occurs
23:11
using a multi modal approach. For example, Alzheimer's.
23:15
Going back to Alzheimer's treatment is not just
23:19
symptomatic or not just removing amyloid early on in the disease,
23:23
but targeting top pathology when the time is right, maintaining
23:27
blood brain barrier integrity, addressing metabolic deficits,
23:31
correcting even correcting aspects of the microbiome
23:34
because we know that there is a gut brain access.
23:37
You know, there has to be a holistic approach in order to
23:41
achieve something substantial, and the approach is generated by
23:47
this growing toolbox of therapeutic modalities, small
23:50
molecules, biologics, gene therapy, CRISPR, RNA therapies,
23:56
cellular therapies, you name it. We have the tool set.
23:59
We have to put it in on work. So as I think the future of CNS
24:04
drug development, I see a model built around early detection,
24:10
continuous monitoring, prevention, combination
24:15
therapies and personalization. I think if you can pull these
24:18
pieces together, the next decade, if we look back 1015
24:23
years from now, things will look very different and hopefully
24:28
lead to meaningful changes to patients and their families.
24:34
Yeah, hopefully. So I think it's, it's a, it's
24:37
still a massive area of, of unmet need and I think we're
24:40
we're making steps in the right direction.
24:42
It's just going to be one of those, you know, sort of real
24:45
implementations are made and how long that's going to take for
24:48
for it to really come into effect.
24:50
Absolutely, absolutely. It's going to have to be a
24:55
change in mindset together with adoption of new tools, grit, and
25:04
the realization that things are unfortunately not going to
25:07
change overnight. It's going to take a lot of
25:09
effort for us to achieve this transformation.
25:14
I mean, when it comes to you taking a new leadership role, be
25:17
that building a company from scratch or or stepping into an
25:20
existing organization, what are the first priorities that you
25:24
focus on to really set it up for success?
25:28
Well, first of all, building or transforming is a a a real
25:36
challenge from everyone. I happen to enjoy it.
25:39
You know, some, you know, it's, it's not for everyone.
25:41
OK, No, I tend to focus on 4 priorities and I've again, this,
25:48
these are principles that I've been thinking for decades now
25:52
and they have evolved. And you know, the order is very
25:57
specific of the priorities is first is vision, then is people,
26:03
then is science and then infrastructure.
26:07
So it starts with a vision and it's like your own purpose.
26:12
Every company has to come up with exact what exactly they're
26:18
trying to achieve. What is the problem that they're
26:21
trying to solve and why does it matters?
26:24
Why does it matter? I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's
26:27
just as you know, important as when you're approaching the
26:32
solution. If the problem is not and the
26:37
solution, if they're not clear and compelling, it's very hard
26:40
to build an organization. It's very hard to build even a
26:43
small company. I I select every, every
26:46
colleague of mine. So from the front desk to the
26:51
chief scientific officer needs to be aligned around what is the
26:58
company doing? So, you know, good morning.
27:00
What are we trying to achieve here?
27:03
OK, it's not letting people in. If you're, you know, front door
27:07
person, it's all you know, we're all part of the same thing.
27:11
We are all doing XY and Z. The second priority is is
27:16
people. And in my experience, this is
27:19
the really the people is the real glue that holds everything
27:23
together. You need the right people with
27:26
the right knowledge, with the right mindset and attitude.
27:31
Talent and expertise matter of course, but you know, so that's
27:36
placing people in the right roles at the right time and for
27:40
the right reasons. OK, equal is, is important is
27:47
again, people understanding priorities in the company.
27:50
And this is different from what we're trying to achieve at any
27:55
time point. People need to be part of the
27:58
thought process and understand what's important for the company
28:03
right now. How do they spend their time,
28:06
how they and, and how their work connects to the kind of broader
28:12
business of of the company, OK. So that that's, that's critical
28:17
people, the right people at the right time for the right reasons
28:25
could make all the difference in the world if they can focus on
28:29
what is really important. OK.
28:33
And if you're missing any of these, you know, you, you, you
28:35
are going to be on shaky ground. The third pillar for any biotech
28:40
company is science. And we talked a little bit about
28:44
science. Having deep and honest
28:47
understanding of the scientific principles of what you're doing
28:50
is key to success. And where failure happens is how
28:57
is it this? There's a disconnect around at
29:00
times. How is your science perceived
29:04
internally? How do you interpret it and see
29:08
and, and see your science, see your science and how is it
29:10
viewed externally? And you know, are we being
29:15
intellectually honest when we are evaluating our strengths,
29:21
our hypotheses, our weaknesses, our pipelines, our programs?
29:26
So, you know, again, you have to be honest, you have to have the
29:32
ability to cut through the fog and just ask the right
29:37
questions. Finally comes infrastructure.
29:39
You know, no company can be successful, especially if
29:43
they're in growth phase. The system, the processes, the
29:47
operational, you know, framework will allow an organization to
29:55
execute effectively. So this is almost like a license
29:57
to operate for any company. So if I had to summarize what
30:03
really makes companies tick, it comes down to two main things.
30:11
Other than the, you know, high level mission in the
30:14
infrastructure, these people in scientific integrity, if you get
30:19
these two right, everything else becomes a lot easier to build
30:24
around. Yeah.
30:25
I mean, I mean honing in on sort of the people aspect for those
30:29
that are currently working in the biotech industry or are
30:31
trying to get into the industry, what what are the traits that
30:35
genuinely make someone stand out to leadership teams and what,
30:38
what are the things that you consistently see across the go
30:41
to people within the organization?
30:45
Boy, this is this is another good one.
30:48
Well, the, the people who really stand out and, and again, there
30:56
is a lot of personal opinion here.
30:58
I mean, this is an No1 like anything and everything.
31:02
I'm pretty sure that there are other very valid opinions on, on
31:07
this particular topic. For me, the people who really
31:12
stand out are the ones who genuinely care, OK?
31:16
They care about the work, they care about what is being
31:20
accomplished in the company. And most importantly, they care
31:26
about the people around them. OK, so let's try to dissect it a
31:31
little bit. The first thing that we
31:35
mentioned is, you know, they truly care about what they're
31:38
doing. They take pride in their work.
31:40
They feel a sense of purpose in their role coming back to
31:43
purpose. But at the same time, you know,
31:46
they, they, they, they're balanced.
31:48
They're not, they're not stretched.
31:50
They they feel at home with what they're doing and they're
31:54
fulfilled in what they do. And that allows them to bring
32:00
this positive energy into the organization.
32:03
And that what makes them, you know, beacons, that what makes
32:07
them, you know, that what attracts other people to them.
32:14
OK, the second thing. So first thing is people need to
32:18
care about what they're doing. The second thing they need to
32:21
care is generally care about the work of others, OK?
32:25
Not just their own. We all work need to work on
32:28
ourselves, but we need to work on others and we need to work
32:31
with others. So leaders rely on others, OK?
32:40
And these are the ones who collaborate naturally, who are
32:45
willing to listen and who try to understand what drives their
32:51
colleagues. You.
32:52
Know, and those are the individuals that tend to radiate
32:56
positivity and passion and those and, and if you connect these
33:01
with fairness and a sense of energy that lifts the team
33:09
rather than creating fiction that that is kind of like a
33:13
perfect situation for for for you know, for creating these
33:21
individuals, these workers that are the go to people.
33:25
Another important trait is understanding, not just caring
33:33
for for people, but understanding what's in it for
33:38
them. What motivates the people around
33:42
you or around the people or around the natural leaders of
33:46
the company. So the people that understand
33:48
what motivates people around them, they're going to be
33:53
successful because they can help connect everyone back to the
33:57
broader purpose of the organization and they can infect
34:03
others with kind of the sense of the shared sense of mission in
34:08
the company. There's one very simple thing
34:12
that I at least follow. I always try to be a colleague,
34:17
never be a boss. Leadership, I know that that's
34:21
trivial, but I have to say leadership is not about
34:24
hierarchy. It's about trust, respect,
34:28
working together towards a common goal.
34:30
My say has has been always treat everyone like you want to be
34:37
treated or even better, treat everyone like the kings, Queens,
34:42
Princess and princesses. And there's one last final thing
34:48
that I I'm very vocal about. Smile.
34:53
Don't forget to smile everything with a smile on your face.
34:58
No one wants to look at the green face.
35:01
Positive energy is contagious, especially in environments as
35:05
challenging or you know, biotech.
35:07
Just smile. It makes a real difference.
35:11
So these are kind of, it's a very, it's a very tricky
35:13
question. You're giving me tricky
35:15
questions to date, Ben. I really appreciate it.
35:18
I can't make it easy for you and I know that in in the
35:22
introduction I I mentioned your your book Mind Odyssey, which is
35:26
currently topping Amazon best selling lists.
35:28
The book draws on your experiences across brain health
35:33
and when you were really sort of writing the book, What did you
35:36
most want to capture and what do you hope that readers carry with
35:39
them after they finish reading the book?
35:43
Well, I can tell you what I wasn't trying to achieve when I
35:47
was writing my Odyssey. I I wasn't trying to write
35:50
another career book. This was not my my end goal.
35:56
What I really wanted to do is capture something that I had
36:00
experienced personally over many years in medicine, science and
36:03
biotech and try to put it all under a construct that has a lot
36:14
of storytelling in it and has a almost like an autobiographical
36:21
hue. So this is Mind Odyssey is not a
36:24
boring neuroscience book. And if you spend enough time in
36:29
any demanding profession, and that was my realization, is that
36:35
no career is a straight line. OK.
36:39
It's, it's like a journey, you know, sometimes it's exciting,
36:43
sometimes it's boring, sometimes it's uncertain, sometimes it's
36:48
difficult. And, and, and this idea really
36:52
resonated with my Greek roots and the story of Odyssey.
36:57
It's the story of Odysseus from Greek, you know, from Greek
37:00
mythology and you know, his voyage is full of victories and
37:05
setbacks, Very difficult voyage. He lost all his comrades.
37:10
He stepped in so many land mines, but what kept him moving
37:15
forward and he had to stop a lot of times had stopped, but what
37:19
kept him always moving forward over the years is that he always
37:25
knew why he was on the journey. Yeah.
37:28
And that that's the purpose that you keep talking about.
37:31
Exactly. Exactly.
37:33
And that idea became the foundation of the book.
37:36
So coming back to my purpose, all right?
37:41
And that's how I connected it. It's a journey.
37:44
Career is a journey we have. We have to have a purpose.
37:47
And I've seen people, incredibly talented people struggle and
37:56
they struggle not because they were not smart enough or they
37:59
were not intelligent or not hardworking enough.
38:03
It's just because they have lost sight of their purpose.
38:07
They changed. They, they, they followed
38:10
passions and, you know, human vices.
38:14
And that influenced their course.
38:17
And when that happens, every set back feels overwhelming and
38:24
every success feels strangely empty.
38:29
So I wanted to capture three ideas in the book that I believe
38:34
are essential for navigating professional life through time
38:40
and has nothing to do with industry.
38:42
That applies for every industry, every career, profession.
38:46
Link this to developer, your own purpose.
38:49
You have to work to develop. You have to articulate your
38:51
purpose. You have to verbalize it, write
38:55
it down OK, and work on achieving balance.
39:04
OK, Not happiness. Don't pursue happiness because
39:07
happiness is transitional by default.
39:13
You're going to be happy, you're going to be sad, you're going to
39:16
be even. So if you understand this and
39:21
you develop this ability to manage these emotions
39:24
effectively in the workplace, you may at some point feel whole
39:30
and that's fulfillment. So fulfillment is a state that
39:34
you look back and you look forward and say, I'm good, I'm
39:37
good. I like what I do.
39:39
I know that there are challenges, but I think I will
39:43
continue doing what I'm doing and this is meaningful.
39:48
So purpose answers the question, very simple.
39:52
Purpose answers the question of why we do what we do.
39:56
And remember when we talked about organizations and what
40:00
makes organization tick? It's the same principle, OK?
40:04
We need to know why we do what we do.
40:08
So the second thing is balance. Balance helps us navigate the
40:14
inevitable challenges, the turbulence that we'll all face
40:19
during our professional careers and fulfilling this where we
40:23
ultimately want our journey to lead, not end, but to lead.
40:29
OK. And I also wanted to connect
40:35
these ideas because I, I don't want it to create a practical
40:39
psychology book either. I'm a neuroscientist.
40:42
So taking all these ideas that I've seen in, in, in my, in, in
40:50
my experiences working and connect them to something very
40:53
concrete neuroscience. And that's where that, you know,
40:57
I've spent my whole life studying the brain.
41:01
And the actual thing that fascinates me is that you can
41:07
actually train it. You can train it effectively.
41:11
And the way we act and we react to stress, to failure, to
41:16
success and uncertainty can be fixed, you know, with awareness,
41:21
reflection, we can change the circuitry that is plastic.
41:27
We can reshape it and manage the ups and downs in a very
41:31
reasonable way. And if we do so, if we train our
41:35
brain to navigate our professional life with these
41:41
principles, we become more resilient and more aware of what
41:50
we're doing. And there's high likelihood that
41:55
we're going to achieve some sort of fulfillment as a reward.
42:01
If there's one thing that I hope the readers take away after
42:04
finishing this book is this, that your career will inevitably
42:10
have storms. That's unavoidable.
42:16
But if you have the sense of purpose and the ability to stay
42:20
balanced, those storms will not define you.
42:23
You know, they they will become part of your journey.
42:29
And you know, like the main character Odysseus, you keep
42:36
sailing and knowing that that ultimately knowing where you
42:46
ultimately want to go. So, so and you know, there's
42:50
also a nice movie coming out with this.
42:55
I think this summer The Odyssey is going to be released.
42:58
Matt Damon is playing Odysseus and I think this principles will
43:05
resonate even more with people once they get re exposed to the
43:09
journeys of Odysseus. Yeah, 100%.
43:12
I think I would recommend that most people go out and go out
43:15
and buy the book. I think everyone could utilize
43:20
the, the, everything that you talk about in there in some way
43:23
or another within, within their life.
43:25
I mean, not everyone has to take everything from it, but it, it,
43:29
it will help everyone in some way or another.
43:31
Because, you know, I don't think anyone is sort of truly at that
43:34
level of fulfilment. So there's always room to grow.
43:36
There's always room to develop. I think just just to close out
43:40
today the the typical question that we always finish on if, if
43:45
you could have dinner with any scientist or innovator, past or
43:48
present, who would it be and why?
43:51
Oh boy. I, I am enamored with my, my
43:55
Greek heritage. So I would go way back, OK, I
43:59
would. I would wait, go way back and I
44:02
would choose Hippocrates. OK.
44:06
I mean, he's referred to as the father of modern medicine, but
44:10
what fascinates me about him is not just the medical knowledge
44:17
he introduced. He introduced medical knowledge
44:20
almost out of thin air, which is incredible to start, but but
44:27
it's it's just a mindset he represented.
44:30
So he lived at a time where medicine was transitioning from
44:35
superstitions and magic, almost like a mythology type of art,
44:47
towards what medicine is today, which is observation, reasoning
44:55
and understanding the human Physiology.
44:59
So if I had the chance to sit down with him over dinner, I
45:02
would say, you know, I wanted to understand how and what inspired
45:07
him. How did he come up with a
45:08
concept that he did out of thin air and his dominant beliefs at
45:17
the time and and start thinking about disease as a holistic
45:23
intervention rather than a superstition is is what what,
45:30
what, what would be my questions to him then your workings of the
45:35
human brain or body, for instance.
45:38
And I would finally ask him about the philosophy of medicine
45:41
because that's what he, you know, this guy did you know he
45:44
emphasized that medicine is not just about treating disease, but
45:49
it's about understanding the patient as a whole person
45:55
because every person is a patient.
45:57
We're all patients at some time in our life, and that remains
46:02
incredibly relevant today, even if our world is so much advance.
46:08
So I I think that that would be a fascinating conversations
46:12
really connecting the origins of medicine, helping us to define
46:18
its future. Yeah, no, I think, I think
46:21
that's a, that's a, that's a great answer.
46:24
But look, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on today.
46:26
Spiros, I think you know your, your insight to CNS drug
46:30
development alongside your book and and your journey throughout
46:33
your career has been been really inspiring.
46:36
And I hope that the listeners would have really enjoyed our
46:38
conversation today. Well, thank you for your time,
46:42
your excellent questions, Ben, and thank you for having me in
46:48
your podcast. Yeah, absolutely all that.
46:50
Thank you to everyone that's listened along and please stay
46:53
tuned for for any future episodes as well.