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Ep. 47: Narcissists at work — The hidden cost of charisma | Results of Kindness (ROK) Podcast launch! · Adventures in Adversity: an inspirational podcast

• 0:00
  Hello and welcome back to another episode of the
• 0:04
  Adventures Inversity Podcast. This is a very special episode
• 0:10
  my partnership with the Results of Kindness R OK podcast.
• 0:17
  And for those listeners who have been listening for a while, you
• 0:19
  might recognize my guest here. She honored us with her presence
• 0:24
  in Episode 38, Part 1 and Part 2.
• 0:28
  Meryl, hello. Welcome back.
• 0:33
  I love the way you do your introductions, it's so powerful.
• 0:36
  It's so lovely to be back. Thank you.
• 0:39
  I it's a mix of coffee and Sagittarius energy and, you
• 0:44
  know, just happiness that you're here.
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  I'm, I'm honestly so happy. I think that our partnership is
• 0:53
  incredible and the topic that we've chosen today is a niche,
• 0:58
  and it's a niche we know well, we're fluent in and I think it's
• 1:01
  more important than ever before. Yes, yes.
• 1:06
  And that topic is the rise of narcissism in the workplace,
• 1:14
  right? And I think.
• 1:17
  For my podcast listeners, I talk a lot about narcissism and I
• 1:21
  haven't specifically delved into it in the niche area of the
• 1:27
  workplace, which is actually so much of our lives, right?
• 1:31
  And as we've talked about Merrill corporations, small,
• 1:36
  medium, especially large companies, right, have so much
• 1:39
  influence on the world, right? So narcissism in the workplace
• 1:45
  is on the rise. That's not a great sign, right,
• 1:50
  As far as like the culture that that spreads.
• 1:55
  But the good news is, is there's ways we can combat it and
• 1:58
  recognize it, right? And so I'm going to let you kind
• 2:01
  of take it away. But it's so important, not just
• 2:05
  because people work, you know, five days a week or however many
• 2:08
  days a week, but the corporations have so much
• 2:13
  influence in the world, right? And that's going to affect all
• 2:16
  of our lives, really. And, and, you know, I think we
• 2:20
  talk about the rise of, of, of narcissism in the workplace.
• 2:24
  I always wonder, Bree, are we just getting better at recording
• 2:27
  things or are things getting worse?
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  And I believe it's probably both because in many ways,
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  narcissists have always been, you know, power hungry and
• 2:37
  always loved status. So they've always somehow found
• 2:41
  their way up in the ranks. You know, we talk a lot about,
• 2:44
  for example, the legal industry that I was a part of filled with
• 2:48
  narcissists, the media industry, the creative industry, even in
• 2:52
  these softer industries, they play a, a massive role.
• 2:56
  But I think that there's something about the social
• 2:59
  fabric, the way that the world is changing on an individual and
• 3:03
  social level, and the rise in, for example, peacocking, which
• 3:07
  we will talk about, which is in this ever competitive job
• 3:11
  market. And we talk so much about people
• 3:13
  who can't afford to quiet quit anymore, can't afford to, you
• 3:19
  know, look for other jobs because it's so hard to get a
• 3:22
  new one. So people are looking for
• 3:23
  alternative ways of getting attention.
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  And so even in, you know, social media, what do you do to gain
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  attention? Well, you act as as loudly and
• 3:36
  as as openly and as creatively as possible to gain that
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  attention. So I think that it's a change in
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  the social fabric which is feeding narcissism at work, but
• 3:51
  also the financial conditions that we're finding ourselves in
• 3:54
  very recently. And really the focus of this
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  episode is to talk about that rise talk a little bit.
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  I mean, we've touched on it a little bit as to why this arise
• 4:05
  in narcissism, but how to spot a narcissist at work.
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  And we know you and I, we read so much about narcissism.
• 4:15
  I'm sure there'll be statistical insights, but from a live
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  experience. But most importantly, and this
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  is the big thing, is that as an organizational consultant,
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  someone who works with with companies, we find that people
• 4:31
  are, are not aware of the actual impact that narcissists,
• 4:36
  narcissists have in the workplace and just how they are
• 4:40
  cancerous to organizational longevity and retention and
• 4:44
  profitability. So why we should not be firing
• 4:48
  narcissists, why we should be so aware of them, and why we should
• 4:52
  not be giving them the spotlight that they are vying for.
• 4:56
  So very much so that's, I think what our viewers can expect from
• 5:00
  from this podcast. That is a a fantastic intro and
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  I'm thinking of the people listening.
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  And if you're listening and you are a hiring manager, right,
• 5:12
  what what do you look for in the interview?
• 5:15
  You've got so many people interviewing right?
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  And it's a great, great, like you want to find that right
• 5:19
  person for whatever you're looking for.
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  What are what are sort of the red flags to look for as a
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  hiring manager? And I think too, if people are
• 5:31
  new, we've got some sort of like the narcissism experts.
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  If you've lived through narcissism, you become an expert
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  and then you voraciously read because you want to understand.
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  If you have no idea but you've been hearing this word
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  narcissism. What?
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  What? Exactly is narcissism and then
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  kind of talking about it in the context of the workplace.
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  And then even if you're someone who's like, yeah, I can handle a
• 5:56
  narcissist, like it's not that big of a deal.
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  Like I'm tough You're the revenue and the value and the
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  attrition in your company is going to suffer even if you can
• 6:06
  handle that narcissist because other people in your company
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  can't, right? Absolutely, Absolutely some.
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  People are just like, not targets.
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  They've got their armor. They're like, yeah, that doesn't
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  bother me. I'm gonna get my work done.
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  And then the rest of your team is like, well, it's bothering
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  me. Because I think sometimes, I
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  mean, you could you put it so beautifully, Bray, you put it so
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  well. And I think sometimes this is
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  something, again, that a narcissistic, you know, abuse
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  survivors really struggle with because the narcissist doesn't,
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  you know, target everyone and anyone.
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  You know, in the social world, in the private sphere, in the
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  company, they have people that they just like and that they
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  spare many they do not. So if you think you can handle
• 6:53
  it, you probably haven't felt the full wrap of the experience.
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  If you can say that you haven't experienced it.
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  But I think absolutely you. Let's talk about what narcissism
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  is because it's a buzzword and every buzzword is dangerous.
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  So agree. I would say everyone has their
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  experience of narcissism, that these people are carbon copies.
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  There's not much originality there in their character traits.
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  So to you, I mean, if I was to ask you what is a narcissist,
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  maybe two or three traits that characterize them.
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  I'm going to say, I'm going to say that I love that you said
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  give me like 3. I'm going to say the first 3
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  words that come to my mind after my lived experience reading
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  about it. And then my episode 29 with
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  Professor Vaknin. Who?
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  Is a diagnosed narcissist and a professor of So that's so many
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  things. The first thing that came to my
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  mind was chameleon. Not in a good way.
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  Chameleon. Vacant Performative.
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  I love the definition because. If I could drop this mic, I'd
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  drop it. Yes, Oh God.
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  There's so many more than those three.
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  I'm like, if you see those 3 combos of chameleon performative
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  and what was the other one? Whatever I said, they're just
• 8:30
  something's off. They're kind of like something's
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  off, but it's they're different. Yeah, What do you think?
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  What is a? Narcissist to you or based on
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  what you know and all of your research, all of your life
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  experience, psychology, how would you describe a narcissist?
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  I think. Before I give my definition, I
• 8:55
  just want to say that maybe with, you know, intentionally,
• 8:59
  unintentionally, you broke down the three key traits that we see
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  narcissists display themselves the most, that that's most
• 9:09
  prominent in the workplace, the vacancy.
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  I know them well. The chameleon because The thing
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  is the narcissist shows different shades of themselves
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  depending on the context. So in in private relationships,
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  romantic relationships, they are they are chameleons, but I think
• 9:31
  that they perhaps show higher levels of intensity, emotional
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  intensity, especially at the beginning.
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  Whereas in workplaces, that intensity becomes something
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  else. It becomes a little bit more
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  hollow because it's not in the same dynamic.
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  But I would say that for me, I would say how I recognize a
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  narcissist is 0. Emotional intelligence, and I
• 10:00
  mean zero #2A grandiose sense of self, so much so that they
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  cannot see anyone but themselves and #3 parasitic teach like, and
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  that can manifest itself in, you know, a lack of real character
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  or a lack of true personality where it's almost puppeting and,
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  and emulating, you know, empathy emulating or performing kind.
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  And that's why they are drawn to these people of light because
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  they can use them as a prototype for to to perform, to get
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  through, get through doors, but with a strategy with a malicious
• 10:53
  intent that sometimes, you know, nice PeopleSoft people who hold
• 10:58
  these trades may not be able to do so as as well as they do.
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  So that's how I would prioritize them all.
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  It's so interesting too, because what come, what can come off and
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  I'm putting in the context of the workplace as a very
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  confident, very confident, very like wow, like this person is
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  wow. They they don't doubt themselves
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  at all. But then you start to see in the
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  comments, the way that they maintain that confidence is by
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  keeping other people below. Like there's, there's no, it's
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  like a, like you said, parasitic like that confidence is as a
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  result of extracting from other people.
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  It's not a real confidence because they're empty, because
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  Professor Vaknin had said narcissists have they're they
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  have no ability to regulate their own emotions.
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  So they use other people. If I'm feeling insecure and I'm
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  a, I'm a big VP and I'm, you know, Acme company, whatever.
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  And I'm not feeling it, but I know I got a big ton of meetings
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  today. My first meeting with my
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  directs. I'm gonna, I'm gonna extract
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  some supply there. I'm gonna put down that I'm
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  gonna make sure everybody knows who's the big shit, who's in
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  charge so that I'm ready to because I don't have confidence
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  internally. I have to extract it.
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  If I'm a narcissist, I think based on my my learning it's
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  you. I regular I use you to regulate
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  myself. I I don't know how to self
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  regulate because I have no sense of self.
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  I I, I I've again goosebumps because and we had goosebumps
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  when we were preparing for this episode as well.
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  It happens very much with you, Bree.
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  I have never seen supply described in that way.
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  I did not know that. It's because that they cannot
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  regulate their own emotions, although it's so clear, but
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  that's the reason behind the supply.
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  And so when you talk about confidence, and perhaps now we
• 13:12
  can announce that, yes, we are going to be talking about signs
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  of narcissism in the workplace, you talk about confidence.
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  The problem with this, and This is why they burn such a deep
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  hole in organizational pockets, is because they Peacock and
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  perform competence and confidence.
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  And the problem with that is that if there is any chink or
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  any challenge to their perceived image, the entire foundation
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  crumbles and there is almost a punitive approach to feedback
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  rather than a constructive 1. And when people perform
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  confidence and competence when it comes to doing the actual
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  work, it becomes a disaster for companies that are actually
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  relying on employees or executive C suites to make an
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  impact. But when there isn't actually
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  true substance behind that, it becomes very, very dangerous.
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  So it's not only not only do they make the person feel like
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  shit in the meeting when they have to go actually get it done,
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  there's a lower level of competence sometimes.
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  So you're like, not only did you spread some negativity, now you
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  can't even deliver. Maybe the competence might not
• 14:38
  be there because it's peacocking.
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  It's performative, right? But then the people you're
• 14:41
  putting down are pulling all the weight.
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  Right, Well, well, let's ask why.
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  And I think it comes from from the early development stages.
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  We always talk and I always say this is Valkyrie and, and my
• 14:54
  thought leadership, my philosophy and I say we think
• 14:57
  that organizations are this immaterial hologram concept.
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  They're just a body of people with development history, with a
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  spot of DNA, with ancestral and genetic make up that's unique to
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  them, with experiences and different parenting experiences.
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  You know, they're people, organisations are people.
• 15:22
  So there are people who may challenge us and say, well,
• 15:25
  narcissists are intelligent. Narcissists are intelligent in
• 15:29
  ways that are destructive, not constructive.
• 15:32
  And and that is because they seek their ends in ways that are
• 15:37
  manipulative. They seek shortcuts, they seek
• 15:40
  ways to undermine people. They utilize their energy to
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  destroy others. They don't utilize their energy
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  to create impact that is original, that is, you know,
• 15:50
  contributory, that is constructive.
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  And if we ask ourselves why, why do they mask competence?
• 15:58
  Because from the development stage, they've had parents who
• 16:02
  have either swung from undermining them to coddling
• 16:06
  them. So they cannot tolerate the
• 16:10
  idea, or they cannot even entertain the possibility that
• 16:16
  they need to learn, grow, and they have flaws and they make
• 16:21
  mistakes like the average person.
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  So when you come into an organization, you are going to
• 16:27
  make mistakes. You're going to learn, you're
• 16:29
  going to have to bend to the organization's ethos, purpose,
• 16:33
  values, but they do not have the capacity to change.
• 16:38
  They don't believe that they need to learn more, grow more,
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  think more. You know, we say in forestry
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  sort of bend at the waste to life.
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  You know, there's there's a humility that is required in
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  learning and taking on feedback. So it's almost like the glass
• 16:55
  self that I've created will shatter the moment that there is
• 16:59
  a need for feedback, or needing to work hard, or needing to
• 17:05
  accept that I may not know how to do a job and I have to learn.
• 17:11
  Because when that was so well stated, again, what professor of
• 17:17
  Acton said, you're either usually put as the extreme
• 17:21
  golden child, you are flawless, which is a form of abuse.
• 17:26
  He said like people don't like to hear that.
• 17:28
  And when he said that I was like, wait, it's abuse.
• 17:31
  I'm like shit, wait, that is abuse because no child can
• 17:34
  maintain that. Then the other abuse, which is
• 17:37
  what Professor of Acton went through where there was
• 17:39
  physical, mental abuse. So the polarity of either you
• 17:42
  were treated, you were neglected, or you were
• 17:47
  obsessively doted on and like the golden child.
• 17:52
  Now, if those people rise to organizations like you said
• 17:57
  there, there's no middle. You either are worthless and I
• 18:00
  need to show you why I'm not or I'm the best and how dare you
• 18:05
  challenge me because because they actually at age 3 to 4, the
• 18:12
  the development stops. There's a retreat internally
• 18:16
  because the reality of how they're raised is too difficult.
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  So they create a false self. So anyone who challenges the
• 18:24
  false self is corrected by a mean comment, a power move, a
• 18:30
  but one sign. If you're like, if, if you're in
• 18:34
  the audience and you're going, Oh my gosh, Jenny and John and
• 18:38
  Joey and you're thinking of all the people you work with going,
• 18:41
  are they a narcissist? Am IA narcissist?
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  Here's the one thing I've read about.
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  Typically, narcissists are have highly inflexible personality
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  types. Have you?
• 18:55
  You're inflexible. I'm it's either black and white,
• 18:59
  right? I mean, and you answered it
• 19:01
  yourself. And the reason why is because
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  there was a pendulum with no middle ground.
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  There's no. Middle.
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  It's either I am perfect or I cannot tolerate otherwise.
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  And this inflexibility when we think of well, unfortunately,
• 19:17
  and this is again, the world and people say, well, why a
• 19:21
  narcissist successes? Because we enable them.
• 19:23
  Because many people do not have the capacity or the courage or
• 19:28
  the sight to be able to see that this is a narcissist and they're
• 19:31
  just playing the role of a confident, competent person.
• 19:36
  A lot of unfortunately, a lot of narcissists do end up in
• 19:39
  positions of leadership. So when someone comes in and
• 19:43
  it's usually the high performing employee or the neurodivergent
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  person who is very, you know, able to spot patterns and
• 19:51
  organizational pitfalls and presents this plate of
• 19:55
  suggestions, their inflexibility, their rigidity
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  means that it will almost be, you know, you know, shut down.
• 20:05
  And that's why we have so much progress that is stalled.
• 20:09
  All these companies that cannot meet the demands of the ever
• 20:12
  changing environment because the leaders cannot tolerate those,
• 20:17
  cannot hold the fact, not all the time, but we're talking
• 20:20
  about narcissists here. They cannot tolerate that this
• 20:24
  strategy, this brand, this, this body that they have created of a
• 20:30
  company has space or is required to grow.
• 20:36
  Because it's a direct threat to their they Oh my gosh, there's,
• 20:42
  I'm realizing so much too in the way you're saying things that
• 20:45
  like it. Yeah, people go like, why are
• 20:49
  they successful? Because they a lot of them
• 20:54
  manipulate or they they the people that they're they're
• 20:59
  highly intelligent, right? They couldn't be they know a
• 21:02
  lot. They couldn't know a ton about
• 21:03
  business. I knew a narcissist Business
• 21:06
  School worked for work day employee top 300 employees got a
• 21:13
  big stock payout like and work day is a great company.
• 21:18
  But this person, I can't imagine the destruction she caused there
• 21:23
  because she caused destruction personally for me, but she she
• 21:29
  got, she got her, she got her money, you know, but I'm sure
• 21:35
  she used a little bit of manipulation to get there.
• 21:41
  And it's like things you can look for, right, Like the
• 21:45
  passive aggressive comments, right?
• 21:47
  The the personal sort of, I don't know, it's an energy when
• 21:53
  you, when you meet someone who's narcissistic in the workplace,
• 21:58
  it's a very interesting dynamic because socially, let's say you
• 22:04
  meet someone socially where you're like, wow, huge
• 22:07
  narcissist, like very performative, putting people
• 22:10
  down, you know, very in your face if they're grandiose at
• 22:15
  work. I mean, socially you'll be like,
• 22:16
  yeah, I'm not, I'm not going to that party or I'm not hanging
• 22:18
  out with so and so. You can't do that at work.
• 22:24
  Right. I mean.
• 22:25
  If you're lucky enough, you can quit your job and go find
• 22:27
  another one, more power to you. But that's just not the reality.
• 22:32
  You got a bills to pay, family to feed, feed yourself.
• 22:35
  So what? So I know we're going all over,
• 22:37
  but we talked about what is a narcissist right in the
• 22:43
  workplace. They're kind of inflexible,
• 22:45
  grandiose. Are there times when, based on
• 22:49
  your organizational psychology background, where can a
• 22:53
  narcissist in the workplace? Are they always grandiose or can
• 22:56
  they be covert like more understated in the workplace or
• 23:00
  is it usually kind of that big personality?
• 23:06
  Well, I think to just sort of bring the section to bring it
• 23:11
  home as to what the, the science narcissist.
• 23:14
  I, I said the inability to receive or act upon feedback in
• 23:18
  flexible personalities, as we mentioned #2 it's the excessive
• 23:23
  peacocking and very little actual contribution.
• 23:27
  So even the intelligent ones would rather have other people
• 23:29
  do the work for them. And as long as they get their
• 23:33
  label, they get their name on it, great.
• 23:36
  There is a, an emotional laziness that's there even with
• 23:40
  the very highly intelligent ones.
• 23:43
  But I think the third one, which answers your, which answers your
• 23:46
  question, just like we have covert narcissism and very overt
• 23:51
  obvious narcissism, which is, I would say, less dangerous than
• 23:56
  the covert narcissism. In the same way, a sign of a
• 24:00
  covert narcissist, especially those who may not be so senior
• 24:05
  where they have to hide their narcissism or especially.
• 24:10
  I was going to say something, but I think that that might be a
• 24:12
  little bit generalizing. But we do see certain
• 24:14
  demographics that are more likely to be covert because
• 24:18
  there are social. So, OK, so I'll just say
• 24:20
  females, female narcissists are less they're they're not going
• 24:25
  to be they're not going to go far enough socially and in the
• 24:29
  organizational culture. If they're if they're overt,
• 24:32
  they will be able to do more as a covert that.
• 24:37
  Covert. Yeah, got it, Got it.
• 24:40
  So narcissistic individuals who are, for example, managers, they
• 24:45
  will not do anything that is too performative or obvious, but
• 24:49
  you'll see the biggest sign that people around them start to
• 24:53
  quit. So they'll come into an
• 24:55
  organization and suddenly the turnover rates will shoot
• 24:59
  through the roof. And a lot of the time, because
• 25:02
  they're so nimble and light, they've got, you know, light
• 25:06
  feet. And so, and they have their
• 25:09
  growing, you know, fanbase of enablers and people who become
• 25:15
  enamoured by their charm and, you know, other things that you
• 25:20
  see. Two types of people.
• 25:21
  This is what the data shows. Two types of people who leave
• 25:25
  because they cannot tolerate being around such people, the
• 25:28
  neurodivergent employees and the high IQ or high performing
• 25:34
  employees, because they are the ones who contribute sincerely to
• 25:39
  organisations and also have the least capacity to deal with
• 25:44
  office politics and toxic personalities at work.
• 25:48
  They do not have the capacity because their tolerance for
• 25:52
  performance is so low and you know their emotional because
• 25:59
  there's a sincerity to high performing people.
• 26:02
  They are there to make a contribution.
• 26:04
  They're not there to perform. They're not there to pretend.
• 26:06
  They're not there for anything other than the work.
• 26:09
  They're there for the work. They're not there for other
• 26:11
  things. And neurodivergent individuals
• 26:14
  have very, very low capacity to navigate office politics.
• 26:18
  They, I mean, for me as a neurodivergent person in law,
• 26:21
  I'll confess now, I left because I had to be in the lore of the
• 26:28
  jungle. And at the same time, I had to,
• 26:32
  you know, have enough brain cells leftover to be able to do
• 26:37
  the job. I I.
• 26:40
  And tell me if anyone out there doesn't isn't familiar with the
• 26:44
  term neurodivergent, how would you describe that?
• 26:47
  Just in case they haven't. Heard yes so anyone who has a a
• 26:52
  learning they call it learning disability.
• 26:56
  I would call it learning and an additional or different learning
• 26:59
  condition and it can range from dyslexia to ADHD to autism.
• 27:06
  And I am autistic, and a lot of the time, you know,
• 27:11
  neurodivergent individuals, they struggle in sort of narcissistic
• 27:18
  industries because they cannot navigate office politics.
• 27:22
  They cannot navigate the culture, the underlying culture
• 27:26
  where there's like this, there's like these unspoken rules for
• 27:30
  what will win you the favour of managers and bosses.
• 27:34
  Yeah. And #3 because of the
• 27:38
  destructive energetic element that narcissists bring in and
• 27:43
  the fact that they make you feel like you're always walking on a,
• 27:46
  on a, on a minefield, that at any moment something could
• 27:50
  happen that would create triangulation between you and
• 27:52
  others. They do not have the emotional
• 27:55
  bandwidth to stay in such organisations.
• 27:59
  And I think, come to think of it, when we say toxic workplaces
• 28:02
  or toxic, toxic industries, we're basically saying this is
• 28:06
  where narcissists roam free. I think that's really, I mean,
• 28:09
  if we took their workplace, it's it's literally, it's everything
• 28:14
  that narcissist. Yeah.
• 28:18
  You can't if you have a toxic works play if you have a toxic
• 28:22
  workplace. It's just a question of how many
• 28:25
  narcissists are there that you can't if there's no toxic like,
• 28:30
  yeah, that's exactly what it's because like you said, it's not
• 28:34
  this or an organization is not this like the tables and the
• 28:37
  chairs and the paperwork. It's the people.
• 28:41
  It's literally organizational psychology is like, imagine
• 28:46
  taking again, you're the expert in organizational psychology,
• 28:49
  but imagine taking putting a if you had a a therapist, I don't
• 28:55
  know why this just came to me right now.
• 28:57
  If you had a therapist and you had a fifty person company and
• 29:00
  you put a therapist on a chair and then everybody had their own
• 29:02
  little couch and they do a therapy session together.
• 29:06
  Then they walk out and they go do work together.
• 29:11
  They're they, I don't know, it's a bunch of people who have a
• 29:15
  bunch of emotions and wounds and trauma and fake confidence, real
• 29:21
  confidence, Cause and then you put them all together and like,
• 29:25
  there's going to be some issues, right?
• 29:28
  Naturally. And then, and then if three of
• 29:31
  those are narcissists, good. It's Lord of the Flies and.
• 29:35
  And you know, if we talk about my, my, my area of, of interest,
• 29:39
  which is kindness, you can have as many DEI initiatives, We can
• 29:46
  have as many, you know, well-being days as you possibly
• 29:51
  can. We can talk about how we are
• 29:53
  inclusive. We can have a values poster up
• 29:56
  on every wall saying that we are inclusive, we are this, we are
• 30:00
  that. But kindness, what really is it?
• 30:05
  What endures or what really makes the difference between
• 30:08
  taking these abstract initiatives and worrying that
• 30:12
  there is change for matter is the moral character of these
• 30:19
  people. You know, you can talk about it,
• 30:22
  you could create all of these safeguards, but at the end of
• 30:24
  the day, we're dealing with personalities and at work and
• 30:29
  these personalities drive us towards success or towards
• 30:32
  destruction. I had a call with someone
• 30:34
  recently and they said that they worked at at Microsoft and the
• 30:40
  CEO at the time was a very toxic masculine leader many, many
• 30:47
  years ago. And that personality had an
• 30:51
  energetic impact on the organizational culture.
• 30:55
  Just like the head of the family, whoever that is, is
• 30:59
  going to bind and impact and influence the air of the
• 31:04
  household, the air of the house. The moment that you walk in, if
• 31:08
  parents are always in a bad mood or narcissistic or authoritative
• 31:13
  and, you know, altogether cruel, you feel it in the air.
• 31:17
  And then when they worked in a different place and they worked
• 31:19
  for a woman, female CEO with high levels of emotional
• 31:23
  intelligence, he said it was like the difference between, you
• 31:26
  know, the earth and you know, the, the between night and day.
• 31:31
  It was the difference between night and day.
• 31:34
  So we're really talking about a narcissism as a personality
• 31:38
  disorder. So again, it all makes sense.
• 31:41
  If you are bringing in these narcissistic energetic entities
• 31:46
  and you're surprised and shocked that they are sapping away at
• 31:50
  your energetic, you know the the the field of your organizational
• 31:55
  energy, the energetic field of your company, then it's an as to
• 32:03
  why and how. You'll see it in the you'll see
• 32:08
  it in the energy of the meetings start to change.
• 32:11
  You'll see it in attrition, you'll see it and then all of a
• 32:15
  sudden you'll see it in the in the actual numbers at some
• 32:19
  point, right? Whatever industry you are, it
• 32:22
  doesn't matter the conditions of the industry or the amount of
• 32:28
  talent you have. You place a narcissist in that.
• 32:33
  It's so bad and I I know because I've seen it many, many, many
• 32:38
  times in corporate. I've worked in corporate for 20
• 32:43
  years now and I I work at ServiceNow They're they're it.
• 32:49
  I'm wonderfully happy there. In past companies woo
• 32:58
  narcissists and as peers, I've had narcissistic peers, I've had
• 33:04
  narcissistic bosses. I've had narcissistic like
• 33:07
  bosses, bosses, bosses. And even if I don't interact,
• 33:12
  yeah, like even if I don't interact with the narcissist
• 33:14
  that's 2 levels above or four in the past, that trickles down.
• 33:20
  And there's like a fear. It's a culture of fear, kind of
• 33:23
  fear and like trying to decode what is that?
• 33:26
  What does that mean? You reading between the lines
• 33:28
  because there's no, there's just a consistent feeling.
• 33:35
  Like you said, it's like a minefield.
• 33:37
  And whereas when you're on a team that's not led by a
• 33:42
  narcissist, you're not afraid to make a mistake, which then if
• 33:47
  you're, if you're, if you have a narcissistic leader, they're
• 33:50
  going to breed a culture of fear and which actually is going to
• 33:53
  lower innovation. So it's even if you don't really
• 33:58
  care, you do want your company to innovate, right?
• 34:01
  So you got to sniff out the narcissist.
• 34:04
  And I'm telling you, it's so bad.
• 34:08
  You, you've given so much. So like you've, you've touched
• 34:11
  on 2 sections and I, I want to do this to both of them before
• 34:15
  we, before we go into that. And I'd love because I think
• 34:17
  every 20 years, that in itself gives you expert, the expert.
• 34:23
  Well, because what is an expert is someone with lived experience
• 34:27
  and has taken that lived experience and turned it into,
• 34:31
  you know, what can be, you know, what can be taken from an
• 34:34
  objective perspective and you know, vice as well.
• 34:37
  But I just want to say before we go on, and I know that I
• 34:40
  probably had a bit more of a chance to talk about the science
• 34:43
  of narcissism at work. Sure.
• 34:45
  We talked about, you know, the inability to receive feedback,
• 34:50
  excessive peacocking, high turnover, people, you know,
• 34:54
  leaving all of a sudden and people thinking, oh, why is this
• 34:56
  happening? Any other signs that you think
• 35:00
  you know for people who are listening?
• 35:01
  Any other signs in your experience of narcissism at work
• 35:06
  that may be wettly obvious? Non obvious?
• 35:10
  Yeah, I'm literally thinking all the narcissists are flashing.
• 35:16
  By the way, there's been a lot of amazing people in corporate
• 35:20
  as well. So before I go into the, the
• 35:23
  tales from that the OR the signs that I've seen a lot of amazing
• 35:28
  people, I don't want. I wouldn't be in corporate if I
• 35:30
  couldn't handle it. You just have to have the
• 35:33
  education and almost like the, the emotional intelligence to
• 35:38
  combat it. Once you do, it's fine.
• 35:40
  Once, you know, you're like, but another sign I would say would
• 35:47
  be like confusion. You're just like, not sure.
• 35:51
  Because some days they're like, oh, good morning, Bree.
• 35:54
  Like I like your shirt. Oh, cool.
• 35:55
  And then you're like, do they they like they like me.
• 35:59
  Yeah, they like me. And then the next, you know, in
• 36:01
  there, you're like in a meeting. You're like, what is this?
• 36:04
  What is this again? What guys?
• 36:06
  What are we even talking about here?
• 36:08
  And you're like, oh, I feel stupid.
• 36:11
  OK. But you like my shirt.
• 36:13
  OK. I don't know.
• 36:14
  It's the confusion. It's a huge sign of
• 36:17
  manipulation. They like to 'cause that because
• 36:21
  they can control and keep you when you're confused, you're not
• 36:25
  confident. So if you're confused with your
• 36:29
  manager all the time, it's not a good sign.
• 36:33
  That's actually really poor management.
• 36:36
  Not saying they're a narcissist, they might just be a bad
• 36:38
  manager, but if they're like hot and cold with you and you're
• 36:42
  like, what? Like consistency?
• 36:45
  So confusion at work with leaders where they're doing
• 36:49
  little things to kind of like up self esteem, down self esteem.
• 36:53
  That's not normal. And I think it's just like a if
• 36:59
  you feel when you're with them that the the empathy is not real
• 37:02
  because it's feigned empathy. They know how to mimic.
• 37:06
  They know how to look like they give a shit, but if it's like
• 37:09
  they ask you a question, like I, I had a manager that was like
• 37:12
  they would ask you a question and be like, oh, how are you?
• 37:14
  How is whatever? And then halfway through they're
• 37:15
  kind of like you're like, you don't even actually give a shit.
• 37:19
  This is all just formative. So hi, how was your day?
• 37:21
  How's your and then they're not really that interested.
• 37:24
  They're just kind of like going through the motions.
• 37:28
  It's you gave such great points and I want to return to the
• 37:32
  confusion because one of the things that I mean, if you ask
• 37:37
  people who are, if you ask people, why did you live?
• 37:42
  Why did you let's try again. If you ask why did you leave
• 37:48
  your 9:00 to 5:00? And they said that I was being
• 37:52
  driven to the point of insanity because I had lost all self
• 37:57
  trust. And that's one of the most
• 38:00
  crippling impacts, the most crippling damage, damaging
• 38:05
  impacts of, for example, micromanagement.
• 38:07
  That's obviously something else. But yeah, when you undermine a
• 38:11
  person's personhood, when you make a person feel like all of
• 38:16
  their integrity, their experience, their credentials
• 38:21
  don't mean much and they never know if they're on the right
• 38:25
  track. The fear, the paranoia, and then
• 38:30
  the lack of productivity and the lack of motivation and
• 38:34
  engagement is lethal for someone's career and for
• 38:41
  someone's progression and you know, for their for their
• 38:45
  position in a company. And it's one of the most painful
• 38:49
  things to be and we don't talk about it.
• 38:51
  I'm so thankful that you did because confusion can undermine
• 38:56
  the most senior person into a state of paranoia, low self
• 39:01
  esteem, and then ultimately withdrawal.
• 39:03
  So when we sit down and we say, well, hey, why are you not
• 39:06
  performing? Hey, why are you not delivering
• 39:10
  the way that we expect you to? If you are consistently putting
• 39:14
  someone in a position of confusion or paranoia or just
• 39:21
  feeling like nothing is ever quite enough?
• 39:24
  Another sign of narcissistic losses that no matter what you
• 39:27
  do, it doesn't go anywhere. And at the same time you're
• 39:31
  sacrificing. I talk about it, you know, so
• 39:33
  much and you do as well. We sacrifice a lot to work.
• 39:38
  We do and deliver so much. If it's sleep, if it's time, if
• 39:43
  it's family, if it's health, if it's everything, you know, work
• 39:48
  is a sacrifice. And then on top of that, if
• 39:52
  you're being made to feel like nothing you ever do, the seeds
• 39:55
  in which you plant every day with your sweat and blood and
• 39:58
  tears amount to nothing that I'm, I've seen some incredible,
• 40:04
  you know, shiny eyed lawyers. And finance people leave the
• 40:10
  industry because they've said no matter what we did, it was never
• 40:14
  enough. But then tiny mistakes was like
• 40:17
  the was Armageddon. It was like it was, it was, you
• 40:20
  know, the last straw. How can you put someone in such
• 40:24
  a position of constant fear and call that you know performance
• 40:29
  management or maintaining productivity?
• 40:35
  But it's so it's so true. Yeah.
• 40:38
  And and I just want to make a point to Professor Vaknin had
• 40:42
  said half of all narcissists are women.
• 40:45
  So I know sometimes men get the bad rap, but I just want to say,
• 40:50
  and I don't know, maybe it's different organizationally, but
• 40:52
  I will say in in if you look at the whole population, he had
• 40:57
  said half of them are are women. And, and, and again, I'm very
• 41:01
  like women's empowerment. But I just got to be real that
• 41:05
  if I think of my 20 year career, there are four people that come
• 41:09
  up, No 5, let's see. I'm not going to name their
• 41:12
  names. I'm going to name them in my
• 41:13
  head. Well, in my personal experience,
• 41:25
  four out of my five were women, but that's OK.
• 41:28
  It doesn't mean one of them was a male and it was very traumatic
• 41:33
  and we can go into that. But I'm just saying don't just
• 41:36
  assume it's a big guy in a suit. It could be anybody.
• 41:41
  It could be someone who's entry level.
• 41:44
  It could, it doesn't like it's not just the big VP or the CEO.
• 41:48
  It could be the account executive or the new HR person
• 41:53
  or the new you could be the lowest on the totem pole and be
• 41:58
  a narcissist and quickly make an impact in an organization
• 42:01
  negatively. You know what I mean?
• 42:03
  So just male, female, any, it could be anywhere in the org
• 42:07
  chart as far as my lived experience.
• 42:11
  So. I, I, I again, I applaud you so
• 42:15
  much for saying that because what's happened with the women's
• 42:18
  empowerment movement, and I hope this isn't too political.
• 42:23
  But I think, no, I mean, I'm just keeping it real.
• 42:25
  What I think, yeah. I think what what it's done is
• 42:28
  it's almost put women in in in a position of being perceived as
• 42:33
  infallible and can do no wrong. And so when people do complain,
• 42:41
  Bree, that I had a narcissistic female, a narcissistic female
• 42:46
  boss, people are like, no, no, no, you didn't.
• 42:48
  That's that's just not possible. You're like, don't gaslight me,
• 42:52
  I did. Absolutely.
• 42:54
  And this isn't this isn't a female meet the male thing.
• 42:57
  But I think that, you know, they talk about, for example, female
• 43:00
  rage. If you think about it socially,
• 43:03
  women cannot show, you know, overt levels of anger or
• 43:08
  influence or manipulation. That's very out.
• 43:11
  But it has to be, you know, Ripple.
• 43:13
  And I would say that at times that can be more lethal and more
• 43:20
  impactful than what is overt because covert is a slow burn.
• 43:25
  And a lot of the time it's closeted and protected by labels
• 43:31
  and social norms. And the fact that a lot of the
• 43:34
  time, covert abuse, covert narcissistic abuse, a lot of
• 43:39
  people who are the victims of it, they cannot even express
• 43:43
  exactly what happened to them. It's that subtle.
• 43:47
  It's that much of an underbelly of impact.
• 43:50
  And it's this one that you cannot see.
• 43:52
  It's like earthquakes that happen below the Earth's
• 43:55
  surface. If we were to open up the Earth,
• 43:58
  we'd see that there is searing impact.
• 44:01
  We just don't see it on the surface.
• 44:04
  So I think that's very, it's a very important point to make
• 44:07
  that there are female narcissists and female, you
• 44:11
  know, abuse from females at work does exist.
• 44:15
  And unfortunately for me, I have seen my experience is also the
• 44:20
  same. I've had more female narcissists
• 44:23
  that I've experienced in my career than male narcissists.
• 44:27
  And yeah. And perhaps we can now talk
• 44:29
  about. Very covert our experiences.
• 44:33
  For me, it came from unfortunately, people who shared
• 44:38
  my, my background and it was almost like, well, how dare you
• 44:42
  be better than than what we expect of you.
• 44:47
  And if I suffered, then you also ought to suffer.
• 44:50
  You should pay your dues as well as a woman of colour and you
• 44:55
  know you are not allowed there is this, you know, if you are
• 44:59
  brilliant or if you're high performing.
• 45:02
  I cannot have that under the same organizational roof.
• 45:06
  And that was very, very painful. But at the same time, I know
• 45:09
  that many people of colour cannot talk about that because
• 45:12
  we are, we're supposed to be campaigning about, you know, the
• 45:16
  fact that we do experience racism.
• 45:17
  But how it's so hard to say. It's so hard to to feel listen
• 45:22
  to when it, when we're saying that actually it's come from
• 45:24
  people from our own communities, from our own ethic backgrounds,
• 45:28
  from women, you know, is that helpful for the female cause?
• 45:33
  And I'm sorry that it's not, but it is the reality.
• 45:36
  And we have to be aware. And like you said, it's not the
• 45:39
  big guy. It can be your colleague.
• 45:41
  And if anything, colleague to colleague abuse can be far more
• 45:48
  than totally you see every three weeks or, you know, every month.
• 45:54
  Totally. And actually I think I've had.
• 45:57
  What's funny is I look back, there's five narcissists in 20
• 46:02
  years. Not bad, right?
• 46:04
  One every four years. Quick math.
• 46:10
  There and I left one company because of an incident with the
• 46:17
  CEO being thrown off stage during a rehearsal, like being
• 46:22
  belittled by Auk software billionaire guy.
• 46:26
  And it was I I went into the bathroom, cried, called my
• 46:32
  parents. I was 24 and was like, I was
• 46:35
  like in a hotel in Miami and I'm like, I have to get out of here.
• 46:38
  I was coming back out and then the legal counsel was waiting
• 46:41
  outside. He's like, you doing OK?
• 46:43
  I'm like, yeah, I'm good, thanks.
• 46:45
  And I quit the next week without any money.
• 46:48
  I just quit. I was in San Francisco and I was
• 46:49
  like, help. So not the wisest decision, but
• 46:53
  I was like, kind of mentally broken and humiliated.
• 46:57
  So I quit. And then I borrowed money.
• 46:59
  I borrowed 2 grand from my brother and then I paid him off.
• 47:02
  I had a little post it note where I had to.
• 47:05
  I paid him back because I was like I cannot go to I'm not
• 47:08
  going to work. You don't understand, Like I'm
• 47:10
  not going. It just goes to showbree and I'm
• 47:14
  I'm sorry that that humiliation and and unfortunately it.
• 47:19
  Happens, it's OK. It's a it's a part of their
• 47:22
  personality and not to say, well, this is what's expected of
• 47:26
  them, but there is a pattern of humiliation and undermining.
• 47:30
  And it just goes to showbree that the and I actually was when
• 47:35
  I was thinking about how this episode was going to go, I was
• 47:38
  hoping that I would make this point and the time is right.
• 47:42
  And it's that this is not a buzzword.
• 47:46
  This is not just stories that we share and we think, thank God,
• 47:51
  narcissists leave residue and impact at the soul level.
• 47:57
  Yes, I'll never forget it. At individual level, there is
• 48:01
  something about their actions that goes far more than skin
• 48:04
  deep. You can have an A well meaning
• 48:07
  colleague still sure, and it will affect you.
• 48:11
  But Nas right, there's something about the way that they are.
• 48:17
  It's it's like it sticks, it goes somewhere deep and it
• 48:22
  stays. And that is why you know, the
• 48:25
  impact that that had that's that's a very, very painful
• 48:29
  event. And perhaps if you have others
• 48:32
  that you can share of other experience, they were more
• 48:35
  prolonged. It goes sure you know this is
• 48:40
  still deep impact. What's so I, I love that you
• 48:45
  said that because basically that was like a, an incident like,
• 48:49
  and I'm trust me, this was 20 years ago and I'm still hot
• 48:54
  headed person. OK, But back then I was even
• 48:56
  more hot headed. I was like, oh, no, like I, I
• 48:59
  was 24. I was like, Get Me Out of here.
• 49:01
  Now I might think about it and then I could handle that now,
• 49:05
  but we were essentially on the stage and I was the last minute
• 49:09
  switching in to present this proposal presentation at sales
• 49:12
  kickoff. 24 years old. I'd never done it.
• 49:15
  And I get up there and I kind of started fumbling my words in a
• 49:17
  rehearsal and he got frustrated and he's like, just what, what
• 49:20
  are we doing? Get off the stage in front of
• 49:23
  everybody. And I was like, so that was an
• 49:27
  isolated thing that I ended up being like, peace.
• 49:31
  Other ones, The other ones with the four females, Slow burn,
• 49:37
  slow burn, right? It was not as overt.
• 49:41
  That was overt. Holy shit.
• 49:43
  That's why legal counsel was standing outside the bathroom.
• 49:46
  I mean, I'm like, I know why you're here.
• 49:48
  Don't worry. I'm not going to do anything.
• 49:50
  I just want to go home in my mind I'm like, I'm not going to
• 49:54
  do anything. I just he's just really mean now
• 49:56
  I'm like narcissist, but the other ones one was a two were
• 50:03
  peers peer-to-peer literally no authority over me.
• 50:08
  Nothing couldn't control anything about me.
• 50:11
  They controlled my psyche because of the backdoor comments
• 50:16
  and the, the on meetings or the, you just, you get the, it's
• 50:22
  like, you know when something's off or somebody is like
• 50:25
  questioning you in a way where you're like, it's just, it's an
• 50:29
  energy. One of them would make backdoor
• 50:33
  comments where I wasn't quite sure how to take it.
• 50:37
  Confusion, confusion. And then the next time, oh, I
• 50:43
  love your hair and I'm like, or like, oh, that was awesome.
• 50:46
  And then just little things like you're just always questioning
• 50:51
  because it's not consistent. And then you sense sort of the
• 50:56
  competition, right? We're we were in our 20s and
• 50:59
  30s. But like my personality, I know
• 51:02
  women were all like, you know, empowered.
• 51:06
  I don't, I think there's room for everybody.
• 51:09
  And I think it actually show you kind of look like an idiot when
• 51:14
  you aren't A-Team player. I like being a team player.
• 51:18
  I enjoy it. It comes naturally to me, but
• 51:21
  these two team mates, I could tell it was hard for them to
• 51:26
  like feel joy for other people. It wasn't a genuine, it's not
• 51:30
  like, Oh my gosh, that's awesome.
• 51:32
  When you hear it's cool, that's cool.
• 51:38
  You know, it's a little bit of so those two, the other one was
• 51:43
  above me and she acts acted differently with us.
• 51:55
  And then when a when a higher level persons in the room, if
• 51:57
  they change their behavior, red alert you, you actually should
• 52:04
  act the same at work, no matter if you're talking to the janitor
• 52:08
  or the CEO. I mean, that's that's how I
• 52:11
  judge people. How do you do you treat?
• 52:15
  How are you talking to the IT guy versus the VP?
• 52:20
  It should be the same. Yes, yes, absolutely.
• 52:23
  Narcissists, I think, adjust how they act based on who they're
• 52:28
  talking to and what they can get.
• 52:30
  They couldn't. My peers couldn't really get
• 52:32
  anything from me, so they didn't really feel the need to like
• 52:35
  butter me up because I was competition.
• 52:38
  Right, right. Yeah, they I'm.
• 52:41
  Like I meet another female that's my age and I'm like,
• 52:45
  dude, let's go kill it together. Like, why would I be
• 52:48
  adversarial, you know? I think when, when, when you are
• 52:54
  so hollow from from within and life is and I and I, I, I'll say
• 53:00
  this, I'll go so far as to say that narcissism is a deviation
• 53:05
  from basic humanity. These people had to split their
• 53:08
  souls in order to survive the the circumstances that they're
• 53:13
  in. So they are permanently on
• 53:16
  survival mode. And I think that when you are in
• 53:18
  survival mode, you must be as strategic as you can with your
• 53:24
  energy, with your time, with your resources.
• 53:27
  So if we look into the mind and, you know, the psyche of a
• 53:31
  narcissist, they are so hollow and limited from within that
• 53:37
  they almost do not even have the capacity or the bandwidth to be
• 53:41
  able to deal with everyone on an equal playing field.
• 53:45
  That their desire, their desperation to reach somewhere
• 53:49
  means that they can, you know, that they have sort of like an
• 53:53
  allotted strategy for some windows of experience or
• 53:59
  interaction and not with others. And I think, you know what's so
• 54:03
  funny, actually, and not none at all to undermine the severity of
• 54:09
  what you've gone through. And but at this, at the same
• 54:12
  time, how many stories do we hear of this almost being
• 54:18
  normalized in organizations where it's almost like, well,
• 54:21
  this is the point of industry. This is the film industry.
• 54:24
  It's going to be like that. It's yeah, yeah, it's it's
• 54:29
  normal. It's part of the dreaded thing.
• 54:32
  It's part of life, right? I hear that a lot like, you
• 54:37
  know, in the entrepreneurial journey, you get 100 and 100,000
• 54:41
  Nos and you may get two or three yeses.
• 54:44
  That doesn't mean that you can still people deal with people
• 54:47
  without integrity, without humanity, without kind of
• 54:51
  following through on promises. I want to ask Bree, you've
• 54:54
  talked about what how they work. I want to ask you the impact
• 54:59
  that these people had on you so that listeners can understand or
• 55:04
  leaders who are listening in and thinking this is just a new
• 55:07
  buzzword. We're all a little bit
• 55:09
  narcissistic. Why should we focus?
• 55:12
  Why should we be campaigning as you and I are?
• 55:15
  We're beginning the campaign against hiring, retaining, and
• 55:19
  rewarding narcissists. We want to know from your lived
• 55:22
  experience the impact that these people had on you and if you
• 55:28
  noticed in in in the company as well with others.
• 55:31
  Yeah, well, if you're a leader and you're listening and you're
• 55:35
  trying to build a high performance team, I left all
• 55:39
  those companies and not and again, no, I was going to feel
• 55:44
  like bad about saying this, but now I'm in my confident journey.
• 55:47
  I can confidently say with self love that I am a high performing
• 55:52
  employee and see that feels good.
• 55:55
  It took me a while to say that, but I left.
• 56:01
  I was like peace. And guess what?
• 56:03
  I told everybody about it. I was like don't work for that
• 56:07
  company, don't do that. That sucks.
• 56:11
  Don't work for that company. That person is horrible, awful.
• 56:16
  They did nothing. I didn't go on Glassdoor and
• 56:20
  like right, But people do glass door LinkedIn.
• 56:26
  I didn't, but I I could have, I could have, you know, although I
• 56:34
  don't think maybe 15 years ago, I don't think there was
• 56:36
  Glassdoor. So I left.
• 56:40
  I it also if you care about people in general and you're not
• 56:46
  a narcissist, but you if you're thinking, oh man, we got some
• 56:49
  narcissists in our company. I, I was in my mid 20s and it
• 56:54
  caused me severe mental stress. You know, it really did and
• 57:00
  caused me a lot of just made me feel really bad about myself.
• 57:07
  And it's been those people. I had to like recover from them.
• 57:11
  I can name them in my mind like those five people.
• 57:13
  Boom boom boom boom boom. Those are the five that pop up
• 57:17
  in the little lineup where I'm like I till the day I die, I
• 57:21
  I'll remember what those people said and did to me and how I
• 57:25
  never want to treat people like that.
• 57:27
  So now it it's empowered me. But whereas if I see that, oh,
• 57:33
  good luck being a narcissist in front of me in a meeting, good
• 57:36
  luck because I will take over and shield the non narcissist
• 57:40
  educated people and I will literally shut it down.
• 57:43
  So I get like fired up saying that, but 20 years ago I was
• 57:46
  like, I need to quit. I'm dumb.
• 57:49
  Like, you know, so you need people who are educated.
• 57:52
  And if you're educated and you see it, you have a
• 57:54
  responsibility to stand up in a meeting and stand up for your
• 57:57
  colleagues. Period.
• 58:00
  Yeah, and you're not being targeted.
• 58:02
  In someone else's, you better stand up, you know.
• 58:06
  But how do you do that without getting in trouble to someone
• 58:10
  higher, right? That's why you need the
• 58:12
  education. What do you say?
• 58:13
  How do you handle it? What do you not say?
• 58:17
  Right? Yeah.
• 58:18
  Anyway, I went on a soapbox there.
• 58:20
  No, no, I love that. And I think that, you know, to
• 58:23
  reflect on the narcissistic experiences that I have had and
• 58:29
  also the the you you started off fantastically and you talked
• 58:33
  about mental distress and you also talked about high
• 58:36
  performing employees. Now, because these narcissists
• 58:40
  are good at peacocking, they are good at performance, they are
• 58:44
  good at taking from the company more than they give.
• 58:48
  As I mentioned previously, high performing neurodivergent
• 58:53
  individuals, people who can actually who contribute the very
• 58:56
  most to companies are the first to leave when they experience
• 59:02
  narcissistic abuse because they just cannot tolerate it.
• 59:04
  I think the more emotionally sensitive and emotionally
• 59:07
  intelligent you are, the more of a visceral response you have.
• 59:12
  Narcissism. And it seems like the moment
• 59:14
  they come in, it's the moment that we come out.
• 59:16
  And so if I'm to reflect on my own experiences, I have been
• 59:21
  lucky not to have, I haven't had narcissistic bosses, but I have
• 59:25
  had narcissistic managers like mid managers and colleagues.
• 59:31
  And I remember this one individual and I remember this
• 59:39
  person came in several months after I joined.
• 59:42
  And at that time I had established, you know, a good
• 59:45
  rapport with my colleagues, with managers, with the sea speeds.
• 59:50
  And this person was clearly very challenged by my contributions
• 59:59
  that even though I was so quite new to the company as as a legal
• 1:00:03
  intern, I was doing well because I was able to pick things up
• 1:00:07
  quickly. And so they had decided
• 1:00:09
  essentially that they would micromanage me, that they would
• 1:00:13
  become another manager for me, and that anything that I did
• 1:00:17
  would be translated into an opportunity to.
• 1:00:22
  You know, report that to a manager.
• 1:00:25
  So let's say if I, it could have been maybe I was 2 minutes late
• 1:00:29
  back from my back from my lunch, that would be translated or that
• 1:00:35
  would be she was 20 minutes late, or I would be told I would
• 1:00:39
  be reported as slacking off. I don't remember having done
• 1:00:44
  that in any of my roles, especially when I was so, you
• 1:00:47
  know, intent on being a lawyer. And I gave everything to that
• 1:00:50
  corporation as a legal intern. And over time, and this is what
• 1:00:55
  really breaks my heart is that you can demonstrate yourself as
• 1:01:00
  a sincere, hard working, honest employee, but under the right
• 1:01:04
  manipulative hands. Within six months I saw my
• 1:01:08
  entire team turn against me because of just how brilliantly
• 1:01:13
  she had orchestrated this. Triangulation.
• 1:01:18
  Triangulation. I was, I was, I was arrogant if
• 1:01:20
  I was contributing. I was selfish.
• 1:01:24
  If clients preferred me, you know, to speak to or to lead
• 1:01:28
  their negotiations. I was slacking off.
• 1:01:33
  I was doing all of these things that were non existent.
• 1:01:37
  But the way that she had portrayed herself as this very
• 1:01:40
  charismatic, trustworthy, perhaps more social person, I
• 1:01:43
  think being neurodivergent, you know, our capacities for
• 1:01:47
  fulfilling all parts of the role is difficult.
• 1:01:50
  You know, we have a social battery that dies quickly.
• 1:01:52
  So I wasn't there so much in the social events.
• 1:01:55
  And that's what she capitalized on.
• 1:01:57
  So she wasn't so much a performer, you know, she was
• 1:02:00
  wasn't performing, you know, very highly, but she was there
• 1:02:03
  in arenas of influence. Yes, it was one of the most
• 1:02:08
  traumatizing and painful experiences because as much as,
• 1:02:13
  you know, she was the way that she was.
• 1:02:17
  But it was fascinating that those people, so beyond
• 1:02:23
  everything that I had demonstrated, and at the end,
• 1:02:27
  they were, you know, almost part of the mission or the project to
• 1:02:34
  have me leave. So when they don't want you to
• 1:02:36
  be there, they make you leave. They don't fire you.
• 1:02:41
  They don't create these allegations.
• 1:02:44
  Yeah, they make you miserable. What happened?
• 1:02:47
  I'm so sorry that that happened and those people that went with
• 1:02:51
  her were probably didn't want to be targeted.
• 1:02:53
  Those are the the flying monkeys, you know, they, they
• 1:02:57
  just don't, they don't they're, they're like, oh, deal with
• 1:03:01
  that. I'll just like you know.
• 1:03:03
  And I think if we give, if we give the, the impact of that, if
• 1:03:09
  you are bringing in and feeding narcissists, who's going to do
• 1:03:13
  the work, who's going to maintain the client relations,
• 1:03:17
  who's going to spearhead your creativity and innovation?
• 1:03:21
  If you are driving away? And this is to leaders, to CEOs,
• 1:03:25
  to managers, to even to colleagues, we, if we retain
• 1:03:31
  reward and, and, and, and, and we celebrate narcissistic
• 1:03:38
  employees and we prioritize them over non narcissistic employees,
• 1:03:43
  you're going to lose the best of your people.
• 1:03:46
  You're going to burn a deep pocket in profitability because
• 1:03:51
  all of these losses are going to come out from nowhere.
• 1:03:53
  If it's productivity, if it's retention, if it's client
• 1:03:57
  relations, if it's if it's the fact that your products are not
• 1:04:00
  being able to maintain their competitive edge, it's because
• 1:04:03
  you're sucking the life force out of the people that are
• 1:04:08
  keeping the organization afloat. Because narcissists have no
• 1:04:13
  loyalty to anyone but themselves.
• 1:04:15
  They are not original thinkers. They are not people of depth and
• 1:04:19
  substance. And you need people like that to
• 1:04:22
  keep industries afloat. And I think that one of the one
• 1:04:29
  of the one of my colleagues said, you know, no one's really
• 1:04:33
  doing much work around here anymore, you know, because after
• 1:04:37
  you left, other people left. And if you, if you think about
• 1:04:41
  it, if you are prioritizing the people who go to all the social
• 1:04:47
  events that cause the most destruction and do the least
• 1:04:50
  amount of work, what kind of an environment are you creating?
• 1:04:55
  Is it just one where everyone's charming and but no one does the
• 1:04:58
  work, everyone's destructive, but no one's productive?
• 1:05:01
  Is this the future of your your company?
• 1:05:04
  We talk so much about, oh, you know, the financial environment
• 1:05:08
  or AI or, you know, the fact that we can't retain Gen.
• 1:05:11
  Z Look at the hidden cost and the devastating cost of keeping
• 1:05:18
  these charismatic, performative chameleons at the heart of
• 1:05:26
  organisations. Look at that cost and then come
• 1:05:29
  and talk about we don't have a budget.
• 1:05:32
  You know, we're struggling. Think of who you are
• 1:05:35
  prioritizing and feeding and who you are punishing.
• 1:05:40
  You know, it was like how to recognize narcissism in the
• 1:05:43
  workplace, but it's like the it's almost like how narcissism
• 1:05:49
  in the workplace is literally parasitic to like all the value
• 1:05:58
  and the results. Customer satisfaction, employee
• 1:06:02
  satisfaction, retention, profitability, culture.
• 1:06:07
  Glassdoor reviews LinkedIn you don't it's literally I would, I
• 1:06:13
  would, I would venture to guess that the lower, excuse me, the
• 1:06:23
  the lower the incident of narcissism in a company if you
• 1:06:26
  were able to kind of measure it and identify it with a good
• 1:06:31
  product. Obviously, it's just it's so
• 1:06:35
  obvious to me and I think the mission of results of kindness,
• 1:06:39
  right is to show the results of kindness in the workplace and
• 1:06:45
  not the and you're going to like this one.
• 1:06:49
  The we're showing the results of narcissism.
• 1:06:53
  They're not good. Let's put next to the results of
• 1:06:56
  kindness in an org and the results of narcissism, which
• 1:07:00
  company you're going to work for?
• 1:07:01
  Because I'm working for the one that is here because I've
• 1:07:05
  already worked for the ones where the narcissist roam free
• 1:07:10
  and people are educating themselves more and more.
• 1:07:13
  So if you're a leader too, they're not going to put up with
• 1:07:16
  it. Like long term, you know, people
• 1:07:20
  will bounce. I would say I totally agree with
• 1:07:24
  you and I think you mentioned about the impact of the
• 1:07:30
  importance of it of, of education.
• 1:07:33
  And I would say that until we can accept wholeheartedly
• 1:07:37
  without ifs, without buts, without all, but they're good at
• 1:07:41
  this or all they do this or all they do that.
• 1:07:44
  If we can accept that narcissism is the cancer, and I call them
• 1:07:50
  the cancer of organizational longevity and health, as well as
• 1:07:55
  the cancer of societies and the parasitic shadow of death for
• 1:08:02
  individual lives, we will not be able to have that philosophy
• 1:08:09
  come into full fruition. Because we have to understand
• 1:08:14
  that this is not to be taken light heartedly.
• 1:08:17
  This is not to, you know, women trauma dumping.
• 1:08:20
  This is a proven cancerous, dangerous personality disorder
• 1:08:26
  that creates havoc and devastation and triangulation
• 1:08:31
  wherever it goes. Yes, there, for example, healthy
• 1:08:34
  Gnosticism, if you can call it that.
• 1:08:36
  So if I give a very small example, I have a fear of being
• 1:08:40
  seen. I didn't even know Bree, that I
• 1:08:42
  had that until I came into my entrepreneurial journey.
• 1:08:46
  Huge fear. And I found out that it's
• 1:08:48
  ancestral. So, you know, my aunt, my
• 1:08:51
  father, my mother, interestingly, they all have a
• 1:08:55
  fear of being seen. You know, they they don't want
• 1:08:58
  to be, you know, they're all hard workers.
• 1:09:02
  But in terms of claiming the spotlight when it's necessary to
• 1:09:05
  voice a message, they run in the opposite direction.
• 1:09:09
  So sometimes you have to almost take inspiration from
• 1:09:13
  narcissists and say, well, actually you need a little bit
• 1:09:17
  of narcissism to bring you into the spotlight and say, well, my
• 1:09:22
  voice is important. It's not the only voice that's
• 1:09:25
  important, but we need a little bit of that.
• 1:09:28
  Now that's very different we're talking about and so.
• 1:09:32
  That's what Professor of Acton said.
• 1:09:33
  There's a there's a healthy every you to survive and stay
• 1:09:37
  alive, You have to have a you have to be on that the the
• 1:09:40
  healthy scale of narcissism where you care about yourself.
• 1:09:44
  Yes. But not then it gets malignant,
• 1:09:47
  it goes. He wrote a book called Malignant
• 1:09:49
  Narcissism. You said it's the cancer.
• 1:09:52
  It it, it goes when it goes awry, right?
• 1:09:57
  Yeah, yeah. And I I think you know what,
• 1:10:00
  again, because this is very much related to the philosophy that I
• 1:10:05
  talk talk about through results of kindness, is self regard and
• 1:10:11
  self promotion always talking narcissism?
• 1:10:16
  Or is it an elevated self love that comes out from the other
• 1:10:20
  side of the spiritual journey? Should we get rid of the idea of
• 1:10:24
  healthy narcissism? Yeah, it doesn't really quite
• 1:10:28
  make sense. You can love yourself.
• 1:10:30
  You can give yourself food and water and and calm and you don't
• 1:10:34
  have to undermine anyone's rights.
• 1:10:37
  Yeah, you're right. Yeah, it's nothing to do.
• 1:10:41
  With you, this is. Yeah, maybe.
• 1:10:44
  It's almost like the scale goes from like self like building
• 1:10:47
  self, loving confidence and then it turns dark.
• 1:10:51
  Yes. It just turns dark when a parent
• 1:10:53
  or a when you're either made the golden child or you're like,
• 1:10:58
  you're, you're neglected. And then they're like, screw it.
• 1:11:01
  This, this reality is too hard to live in.
• 1:11:04
  I'm just going to create a fictional self that is
• 1:11:08
  untouchable, and anyone who tries to challenge it, we'll pay
• 1:11:12
  the consequences. And and remember something as
• 1:11:15
  well that, you know, there's a reason that you and I encounter
• 1:11:21
  narcissists. So because we may have, I mean,
• 1:11:25
  actually, I'll just speak for myself, but I was definitely the
• 1:11:28
  golden child. And I was also definitely the
• 1:11:31
  one who was not allowed to make mistakes.
• 1:11:33
  And I feel like narcissists and empaths, they meet each other
• 1:11:37
  and they are attracted to each other energetically because we
• 1:11:42
  both came from the same households.
• 1:11:44
  We chose to take a different crossroad.
• 1:11:48
  And I think that that is what is important, is that perhaps it's
• 1:11:51
  better for the cause, for organizational strength, for
• 1:11:55
  health, for social mobility and for individual health that we
• 1:12:00
  remove it. Healthy narcissism altogether,
• 1:12:03
  we say the path of humanity, the path of true self love that is
• 1:12:08
  not etched on ego. And in the link because I think
• 1:12:14
  that serves the purpose better. Because I come from a culture
• 1:12:17
  where the golden child phenomena is part of common parental
• 1:12:23
  practice. It's.
• 1:12:25
  It's it's easy. For example, when a child does
• 1:12:27
  something wrong, we, not all of us, but perhaps the generations
• 1:12:31
  before, we're very, very quick to undermine them, you know, to
• 1:12:37
  really, you know, get at them for making a mistake.
• 1:12:40
  But then when they are, when they conform, we treat them the
• 1:12:44
  very best that a child can be treated.
• 1:12:47
  So, but not everyone becomes a narcissist.
• 1:12:50
  And so there is an important distinction, distinction to make
• 1:12:54
  here. And I think that, you know, to
• 1:12:56
  wind it down is the moment that we accept that narcissism, that
• 1:13:02
  is the dark narcissism. And I think there's only one
• 1:13:07
  real form of narcissism. If we accept that in all shades,
• 1:13:11
  in all forms, it is a devastating, destructive force.
• 1:13:15
  Perhaps then we will create organizations and societies and
• 1:13:20
  households that take it so seriously that they do not
• 1:13:24
  entertain, feed or celebrate narcissism.
• 1:13:29
  And I think that that is when that's when we'll see
• 1:13:32
  organizational results until that mindset and that education
• 1:13:37
  is not established. You and I, the moment that we
• 1:13:39
  encounter A narcissist, we are not going to say, let's give
• 1:13:42
  them the very best chance, you know, because we already know,
• 1:13:45
  unfortunately, that there is no. They will never change.
• 1:13:51
  But others who may not be so well versed in the lived
• 1:13:54
  experience, they may think, no, let's give them a chance.
• 1:13:57
  No, they might be, you know, helpful or we might learn from,
• 1:14:00
  we might learn something from them.
• 1:14:02
  But we can prevent the emotional murder that they commit in their
• 1:14:07
  midst. And it is that serious until we,
• 1:14:12
  we're going to keep entertaining them.
• 1:14:14
  We're going to keep feeding them.
• 1:14:15
  We're going to keep recruiting. We're going to keep rewarding.
• 1:14:18
  That's why our work is just incredibly important for me and
• 1:14:22
  this collaboration I think is going to.
• 1:14:25
  I can't. And you know, whenever we talk,
• 1:14:29
  it feels like we need to talk for hours and hours.
• 1:14:32
  And that's why I think this series that we're starting, this
• 1:14:35
  collaboration is between the ROK podcast, Adventures in Adversity
• 1:14:40
  podcast. This is, you know, the second
• 1:14:43
  time we've got together and I think the second of many where
• 1:14:47
  we dive into the joint missions of our organizations, right?
• 1:14:51
  Results of kindness, really helping organizations thrive
• 1:14:55
  with emotional intelligence and kindness.
• 1:14:58
  And then adventures in adversity, which was actually
• 1:15:01
  for your listeners, you might not know, founded out of a
• 1:15:04
  narcissistic abuse experience I had in my personal life.
• 1:15:08
  So anytime I'm very passionate about narcissism education and
• 1:15:15
  like detection and prevention. Yes.
• 1:15:20
  I am, I laugh because it's it's so important to me that I can't,
• 1:15:24
  I can't not participate in this like amazing movement that
• 1:15:28
  you're starting in organizations.
• 1:15:31
  And I I think that in many ways, adventures in adversity you said
• 1:15:34
  was born out of a narcissistic abuse. 100%.
• 1:15:38
  Counter If people ask me, I think sometimes people are or
• 1:15:43
  people in business are shy of being, of being vulnerable.
• 1:15:52
  It's, it's born out of a lifetime of seeing, you know,
• 1:15:57
  narcissism thrive and seeing the impact of it and seeing the
• 1:16:01
  betrayal and the devastation that comes when a world embraces
• 1:16:06
  and almost fetishizes the bad. Yeah.
• 1:16:11
  Neglects what the good, which was meant as a force of creation
• 1:16:16
  and collaboration and nurture, what that has done to our world
• 1:16:21
  and the fact that we are sleeping on this treasure chest
• 1:16:25
  that we call kindness and humanity and grace.