Latest / Foul Territory / Ken Rosenthal: Hall of Fame Steroid Era Selig stance + HOF Contemporary Era ballot speculations

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Ken Rosenthal: Hall of Fame Steroid Era Selig stance + HOF Contemporary Era ballot speculations · Foul Territory

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Alex Rodriguez was talking on a show about bud Selig
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: and said, all this stuff you're talking about was under
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: bud Selig's watch, and he was referring to the ped
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: era and some guys getting in and Bond and Clemens's conversation.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Of course, a Rod's part of that conversation. He said,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: quote the fact that those two guys are not in,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: but somehow bud Selig is in the Hall of Fame,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: That to me feels like there's a little bit some
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: hypocrisy around that your thoughts.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: I can see where a road's coming from there, And
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: certainly bud Selig was the commissioner at a time when
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: all this was going on. Now you can make the
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: case that this is more on the players, that while
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: there weren't penalties in place, it certainly was frowned upon
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: and it was illegal by the laws of the United
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: States in some ways. But you can also argue, if
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: you're bud Selig, well I wanted to do things and
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: the Union wouldn't let me. Question then becomes, okay, do
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: you really see him as a Hall of Famer? Now
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: that goes to the question also, and I'm kind of
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: circling around here, But I'll get to the point of
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: what is a Hall of Famer. It's someone who has
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: a major impact on the sport, to be sure, and
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Bud celeg definitely did that one way or the other,
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: however you want to look at it. But I understand
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: where Alex is coming from there, because, hey, you're seeing
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: players who played in that ear when it was kind
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: of the wild West and when there wasn't much enforcement
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: from Major League Baseball and they're getting penalized where the
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: guy who was running the sport did not. So it's
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: a very complicated question. I don't know that I entirely
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: agree with a Rod because I can see why Bud
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Selig is in the Hall of Fame. But at the
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: same time, hey, there's some responsibility there, and I don't
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: know that Bud Selig has ever taken full responsibility for that,
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: or the responsibility you would want him to take. Basically,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: he's kind of said, the Union would let me do
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: stuff and we didn't know all these things. Hey, other
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: people or taking the hit for that. Players are taking
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: the hit for that, And I don't know that the
• 2:04
  Speaker 2: commissioner should be out of the Hall of Fame for
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: it or should not have been inducted into the Hall
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: of Fame for it, but I would have liked to
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: have seen more accountability.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Put it that way. Yeah, yeah, a precedent said, I
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: know it's not a player, it's a commissioner. But yeah,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: he was the guy in charge during that era. So
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: good conversation. We'll keep it going with the guys right now. Ken,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: thank you. Safe travels to our backyard Orlando, and expect
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: a big bear hug from AJ with drinking hand on Monday.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not happening.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: Later that's Ken Rosenthal. Winter Meetings coverage for FT is
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: coming up on Monday, and also Fair Territory. I encourage
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: you to check out yesterday's episode. I'm biased. I was
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: on it hosting with Ken. It's mostly Ken, but he
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: got into this Hall of Fame discussion more and then
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: of course hit on a number of other topics. On
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: the hot stove that is heating up a little bit
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: right now. There it is. That's a beauty right there.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Live at the Winter Meetings December eight through ten, which
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: is now happening next week. Yeah, we're already there already
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: at mid December. I am excited it is in Orlando.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: We get to sleep at home at least AJ and
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: I live nearby, and then we will drive over and
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: we will be there basically all day. We have a
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: ton of manager and GM conversations that are on the
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: books scheduled and we will talk to them in person.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: So it's going to be a really fun week for
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: this show. And it's the first time that we're going
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: to be live at the Winter Meeting, so we're excited
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: about it, especially for the fans that have been following
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: us for a long period of time. You know how
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: hard everyone works behind the scenes. This is cool for
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: us to add it to our bucket list of events
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: that we're covering. Okay, guys, so on Sunday we are
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: going to potentially learn of some new Hall of Famers.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: It is not easy to crack the list from the
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Veterans Committee, and it's the contemporary era, and the list
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: that is being voted on is stacked and has some
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: controversy to it as well. Right, Bonds and clements are
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: on there. But then you also have Don Mattingly who's
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: had many cracks at it and hasn't been voted in
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: by both the writers or the Veterans Committee. Del Murphy
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: is on there, Jeff Kent is on there. I'll just
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: personally throw my opinion in here because Kent was like
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: my prime era of watching ball as a kid or
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: a little bit older, and I thought Jeff ken was
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: all famer Okay Sheffield to Carlos Delgado, Fernando Venezuela. This
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: is a really good list. And then there was sixteen
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: on the committee that actually does the voting here, and
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: what they do is they all chit chat Todfather. So
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: it's not just like you drop in, you go behind
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  Speaker 1: the curtain and you punch in your vote. They have
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: long out where's long conversations first and then everyone votes okay,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: So kind of like I don't know, survivor if anyone's
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: check that show out. So you've got Fergie Jenkins, Jim Cott,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Juan Marichale, Tony Perez, Ozzie Smith, Alan Trammel, Robin Yut
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  Speaker 1: on the voting committee, along with executive Mark Attanasio, who
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: is the owner of the Brewers, Doug Melvin former GM
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: Ardie Moreno, owner of the Angels, Kim Ang who's been
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: a long time executive in the game, Tony Reagan's Terry Ryan,
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: historian Steve hurt and Jason Stark is also part of
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: this group too and wrote about it that he's not
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: just going to be an observer, he's going to be
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: a voter anyway. Thoughts on all of this, the process,
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: and then if you think any of these guys will
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: make it and how it will go Todd Father, what
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: do you think?
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  Speaker 3: This is very very interesting, not only a group of
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: players that might give voted into all of VAME, but
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: the group the committee. Holy cow, man, I My question Scott,
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: first off is can they all these guys in if
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: they wanted to? Or you can vote no, how many
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: can you vote for to get in?
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: So you can vote for three people three three people
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  Speaker 1: and to get in only three and to get in
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: you need twelve out of sixteen votes, you need seventy
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: five percent. So it is really challenging because I could
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: see there being a lot of three votesiers, four votes there,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: nine votes there. The only thing that I think will
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: help curb that is I have to imagine, and I'll
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: bring in KP for this too. KP. I have to
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: imagine that if you get a room of all these
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: baseball minds together and they chit chat and everybody presents
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: their case. It'll start to sway people because everybody can't
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: just put a different name. Now nobody will get in there.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: So you might be able to say, hey, I feel
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: like this guy deserves that. You start to hear that
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: more and more than maybe some person that was on
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: the fence. It's like, yeah, I'm going to vote for
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Dale Murphy too.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: I think when you get in a room full of people,
• 7:02
  Speaker 4: you could kind of persuade votes like, Okay, these are
• 7:05
  Speaker 4: the three to five guys that we think deserve to
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: get in. Now go make your vote. But my question
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: to you, also, because I'm not as familiar with this too,
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: is this a one and done situation when they're on
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: this kind of contemporary era election ballot. Is it one
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: and done where they can continue to stay on it?
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: They can stay on Also, I forgot one named Tyler
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Kapner who we love to who's been on. So it's
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Kepner and Jason Stark, who are great historians and writers.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: But no, because I think Don Mattingly, at least I
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: want to say three, if not four times now has
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: had a crack at the Veterans Committee. Now he's continuing
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: to build his case even though it doesn't feel that
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: way because it wasn't just as a player. They acknowledge
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: anything that you've done in the baseball world, and it's
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: not like he's been a World Series winning manager or
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: something like that, but he's been in the game for
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: a long time. He's made an impact. So just throwing
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: that out there. Don Mattingly and Del Murphy is who
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: Ken wrote about, and Todd Father Ken I would not
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: say is a super small hapit. He's definitely not a
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: big haul voter, right. I would say kind of in
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: the middle, in a little more towards small, if I
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: had to guess. But he is starting to turn because
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: he said, there's just not that many volume guys that
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: are superstar legends anymore. So it leads him to make
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: a vote for Chase Utley. Ken pointed out in his
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: article how Buster Posey has about fifteen hundred hits and
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: he's probably going to get in likely as a first balloder,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: and we haven't seen that since Ralph Kiner in the seventies.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: Nobody else has even been under two thousand hits, So
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: the numbers are changing. It's not just like, oh, five
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: hundred homers and three thousand notes and we got three
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: hundred wins. I mean, can we get two hundred wins
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: or less? So Ken's point was maybe we should reconsider
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Don Mattingly, whose peak was more like six years, or
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Dale Murphy, who I think had about a ten year peak.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: I think Del Murphy should be in. I mean, like
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: I mentioned, I'm in on Kent Sheffield. If Sheffield's got
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: a unique story that he tells and he's very anamant
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: about but with the ped situation that occurred with him,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: so and I encourage you to read that or we've
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: talked about it on show with him. Anyway, this one's
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: fascinating to me. I do see where Ken is going
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: though on giving more love to guys that don't have
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: the volume that would have stacked up in the past.
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: But I think we have to look at differently.
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you hate to think of it like this,
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: but you look, like I said before, you look at
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: the names, like you see certain names Jim Katt, Jim Cott,
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: mean old school. You know what he's what is he
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: going to think about with the certain guys with the
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: steroid era. Tony Perez what a beast? Love him to death.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: He's got a great voice. He's gonna He's very pennated
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: on some things too as well, good and bad. Ozzie Smith,
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: what an absolutely gem of a guy. But you don't
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: know what these people are thinking. Me personally, I think
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: Barry Bond should get in the Hall of Fame.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Man.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: I've said it before, I've said it all the time.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: He is the greatest hitter to ever play in this game.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: And again, you guys brought it up a while ago.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: It was frowned upon when this was going on. So oh,
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: it just so hard. I think Don Maddingley should be
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: in the Hall of Fame. The guy was so clutch.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: He didn't win a World Series. Okay, what are you
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: going to do? I mean Gary Sheffield, monster hitter, he
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: was very, very good. I would find it hard to
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: believe that they don't put three guys in here that
• 10:15
  Speaker 3: deserve it, and do I think all of I think
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: all of them have a really good shot and should
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: get in. But you know, for me, first and foremost,
• 10:23
  Speaker 3: I think Barry Bond should should be in the Hall
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: of Fame.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: Man.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: I just personally think he was the greatest hitter to
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: ever play this game in baseball.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: And I will tell you this, I would say there's
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: almost no chance that, and I'm not a debate on
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: what you're talking about. I'm not trying to debate that
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: right now. Almost no chance he gets voted in based
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: on who is making votes, right Like there's guy like
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Jim Cotton. No freaking chance he's voting in clements based
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: on the connections. You're right, you never know. I just
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: think that they're going to try and look at some
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: other guys that have been around here for a while
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: that are borderline, that are not connected to peds like
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Murphy and Mattingly. Let me point this out two KP.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: You know Syrus tweeted this yesterday. Doesn't Jeff Kent have
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: a better Hall of Fame case than Murphy and Maddingley,
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: who I think should definitely get serious consideration. He's well
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: ahead in the war numbers. He looks like he's got
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: an edge on the slash line. The home run totals
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: are similar to Murphy, well ahead of Mattingly. The weighted
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: runs graded plus, which is a very similar number to
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: ops plus puts him at a very nice spot. Consistently
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: in his career, he's won an MVP, five time All Star.
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: What am I missing on? Jeff Kent that people didn't
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: love his defense. Oh I'm sorry. He was a monster
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: slugging second basement and played It's not like he was
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: a disaster over there.
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: Well, he also had the hardest job in baseball for
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: a long time, hitting behind Barry Bonds. You know that
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: should be something. But he wasn't a guy who was
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: beloved by the media. He wasn't very available, didn't care
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: to spend a lot of time with the media. I mean,
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: that's a knock against him, But I want to steal
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: kind of a quote that Ken dropped on us. It
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: said impact on the game when talking about a rod
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: and but seely do not all these guys have an
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: impact on the game. My challenge is it feels like
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: when you get to the Hall of Fame as a player,
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: your kind of perspective changes, like you're in this super
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: elite group of players. But when you read off those
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: list of names of guys that are on the committee
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: and the guys that are trying to get elected, do
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: not all of them sound like Hall of Famers To me,
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: I'm personally not a numbers guy in terms of you
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: need to have x amount of hits or home runs
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: or innings pitched or wins or whatever the criteria is.
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: I like to look at it from a player's perspective.
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: If I play, and you can ask Todd, you can
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: ask me about guys that we played against that maybe
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: are currently still playing or just got done playing. You know,
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: a Hall of Famer when you see one, did they
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: dominate the era that they played in? Were they one
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: of the best players in that era, whether it was
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: for five, six, eight, ten, fifteen years. There's no doubt
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: in my mind when you talk about a guy like
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: Buster Posey, he doesn't have the statistical number and the accomplishments,
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: but was he one of the best players in the
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: or the best player for the six years that he
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: was on the field every single day? Without a doubt.
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: So I've always kind of been a little bit bigger
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: haul guy. I don't think it should be for everyone.
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: But if you go around a room and ask players, Hey,
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: you ask guys who played against Dale Murphy. Was he
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: the best player in the field almost every single time
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: he stepped on the field. Absolutely. Same goes for Don Mattingly,
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: same goes for Gary Sheffield. I think a lot of
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: these guys are very deserving to Todd's point two. I'm
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: a huge believer. I know, I know, you know all
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: the noise and speculation and all the things around Barry Bonds.
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: But when you talk about impact on the game, this
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: guy's been retired for how long and we're still talking
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: about this guy as the greatest player to ever play.
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: You know, maybe show Hayes kind of coming up on
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: that eventually, if his career continues to go the way
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: he's going. But you talk about the most dominant baseball
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: player of all time, it's Barry Bonds. It's a very
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: easy answer, much like you would get in the NBA
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: if you ask someone, it's Michael Jordan. You know. So
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: there's some people that can make an argument for Lebron
• 14:06
  Speaker 4: or Kobe and some other players. But if you're having
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: that argument a best player and it comes down to
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: three guys and he's not in the Hall of Fame,
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: I think we're doing the Hall of Fame injustice by
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: not having him in there.