Latest / The Fourcast / Was Trump's Venezuela attack all about oil?

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Was Trump's Venezuela attack all about oil? · The Fourcast

0:00
Trump has a sort of fantasy of resource imperialism rather than
0:03
actually being involved in the details and the reality.
0:06
There is this vast wealth sitting underneath Venezuela.
0:10
Extracting Maduro might have been the easy part because
0:13
extracting Venezuelan oil might be a lot harder.
0:20
Hello and welcome to the forecast.
0:22
Venezuela has long been a country of contradictions,
0:25
sitting on the world's largest oil reserves while its economy
0:28
collapsed around it. Now Donald Trump's removal of
0:31
Nicolas Maduro and Washington's effective control of the country
0:34
has pushed Venezuela back to the centre of global politics.
0:38
At stake is not only a vast energy price, but a bigger shift
0:42
in how nations compete for resources, from crude oil to the
0:45
critical minerals shaping the future of technology.
0:48
To unpack what Trump's move really means, what is happening
0:51
inside Venezuela's broken energy sector, and how all of this
0:55
connects to a wider global race, I'm joined by our economics
0:58
correspondent Helia Abrahami and journalist Henry Sanderson,
1:01
who's an expert in resources and an associate fellow at RUSI.
1:06
Welcome to you both, Henry Sanderson.
1:08
First, I mean, it feels really seismic what has happened in
1:10
terms of the world order. But what is it really about?
1:15
So what I think it's really about is kind of what what Trump
1:17
revealed in the the national security strategy, which is
1:20
defining Latin America as in the US backyard as part of their
1:25
interests, their region, and sending a message that China
1:28
should get out and and Russia should get out.
1:31
But it's so. This is a Don Row doctrine.
1:33
He's renamed. The Monroe Doctrine hasn't.
1:35
That's exactly right. But also with Trump, of course,
1:38
it's always personal. I think he was taunted by
1:40
Maduro, sort of dancing and singing and provoking him.
1:44
So it's also a bit of a bit of that.
1:46
We never know with Trump how much a strategy, how much is
1:49
sort of his personal animosity. But I think more broadly, it is
1:53
about trying to reclaim Latin America because we saw this
1:55
extraordinary advance by China right across the continent over
1:59
the last decade and investing in in all sorts of resources, which
2:03
I can talk more about. Well, we'll talk about resources
2:05
and we'll also talk about where else in America's backyard.
2:08
We'll come back to that. But Helia, what's it all about?
2:10
I mean, as you said at the beginning, there is this vast
2:14
wealth sitting underneath Venezuela, the world's largest
2:18
oil reserves, 20% of the world's entire oil reserves is sat in
2:23
the Orinoco Basin. Now, extracting Maduro might
2:28
have been the easy part because attracting Venezuelan oil might
2:33
be a lot harder. Despite having these huge
2:36
reserves, oil production in Venezuela has really created.
2:41
I mean, it's less than 1,000,000 barrels a day and that is 1% if
2:47
not a bit less than the whole world production.
2:50
So it's it's, it's a challenge. The easy part must have been the
2:53
political stuff. What's more difficult is getting
2:56
their hands on the. Yeah.
2:57
And, and Henry, you know, it was, there were parallels with
3:01
other events in history, other US actions, but it was
3:04
unprecedented in its nature. Markets don't tend to like that
3:07
kind of thing, do they? So how?
3:08
What was the immediate reaction? Yeah, you would think markets
3:11
would be on edge, but actually oil prices the last time we
3:14
tried to fallen today and that's because the global markets awash
3:18
in oil. So it's not like a sudden
3:20
shortage. And as just mentioned,
3:21
Venezuela's production has has completely collapsed.
3:24
You know, it's it's three times more decades ago.
3:28
So that's the reason the market is not really paying a lot of
3:31
attention to that. But I think behind the market
3:33
reaction is this other very important seismic shift, which
3:37
is the rise of electric vehicles.
3:39
And China is a massive oil consumer and 50% of new car
3:43
sales in China are EVs and that's going to get to 70% by
3:46
the end of the decade. So what actually is the longer
3:49
term forecast for oil? And this is so important because
3:53
who's going to plow billions into Venezuela when you have an
3:56
uncertain outlook? Of course, Trump's bullish on
3:59
oil, but but what actually is the the longer term forecast?
4:02
One of the most important questions.
4:05
Well. So yeah, Helia, pick up on that
4:06
point about oil prices in the, you know, now and in the coming.
4:09
I mean, oil is around $60.00 and it's coming down.
4:13
And next year, as Henry was saying, there's actually a glut
4:17
in world oil supply. Why is that?
4:20
Well, because you've got OPEC countries like Saudi Arabia
4:23
turning on the taps under pressure from Trump.
4:25
Remember that in his first aid, Kathy, he said he wants oil
4:29
prices, energy prices to come down.
4:32
But you've also got other countries, non APEC countries,
4:36
neighbors of Venezuela like Guyana, Brazil, Norway, even
4:40
bringing on oil supply in that global world, though, I think
4:45
it's very important to say that exactly the kind of oil that's
4:50
in Venezuela is the kind of oil that American refineries really
4:55
know how to use and are desperate for or chronically
4:59
short of at the moment. And those refineries are based
5:03
in states that Trump is is very popular in.
5:07
Yeah. And.
5:08
There is one U.S. oil giant in there at the moment.
5:10
Isn't there Chevron in Venezuela?
5:12
Chevron, but they they operate, I think.
5:14
So in the 90s when Hugo Chavez came in, they were naturalized,
5:18
appropriated. Yeah.
5:20
Thank you very much. But you've got these American
5:24
companies like Chevron, like ExxonMobil, who were two
5:27
companies at that time. You've got Conoco Phillips that
5:30
had lost lots of money. Now Chevron operates there, but
5:34
it operates as AJV with the nationalized Venezuelan oil
5:39
company. That is a very different kind of
5:41
setup to actually owning the oil and owning the production and
5:45
being able to start new projects, whereas where the real
5:49
profits are. And I come back to the US oil
5:52
companies going going in, in just a moment, but just explain
5:54
this business that we talked about in the intro earlier
5:57
before we move on. Venezuela has the largest oil
5:59
reserves in the world and yet production has collapsed.
6:02
Just explain what's behind that. I mean, mismanagement, There's
6:06
been lots of obviously U.S. companies, European companies
6:12
were pushed out of Venezuela. It was nationalized under Hugo
6:18
Chavez. A lot of money in the
6:20
infrastructure was wasn't put in.
6:23
So years and years of underinvestment has led to this
6:28
kind of creaking infrastructure where there are oil drills that
6:31
are left abandoned, there are spills that go unchecked and
6:36
there's been lots of fraud as well, as well as a kind of big
6:39
accident. So huge problems so.
6:42
Henry, we said, what is this really all about?
6:44
Is it an economic act or is it about resources?
6:47
Or is other two interlinked? Yeah, I think interlinked, I
6:50
think Trump does have this vision and strategy of securing
6:55
resources. You know, China has gone around
6:57
the world, as I said, under the noses of the US over the last
7:00
decade. They're late to the game.
7:02
Also the US, they feel like they're they've really got
7:05
behind that. China has had the head start in
7:09
getting minerals, getting resources and I think.
7:12
As it's doing across Africa. As it's as it's done across
7:15
Africa. I mean, The thing is that people
7:18
around Trump, Trump and Trump, I think is starting to believe
7:21
that they are really late to the game and that they need to act
7:25
now because they want to milk American dominance.
7:29
So, So what? Just explain this term, resource
7:31
nationalism. That's doing the rounds, Henry.
7:33
Yes, Resource nationalism is basically governments of
7:35
resource rich countries trying to get a greater share of the
7:38
resources for themselves or moving up the value chain.
7:41
In essence saying you can have our resources if you invest in
7:44
processing or smelters. And Indonesia is a really
7:48
classic example of this. It's basically a few years ago
7:51
said we're going to ban exports of nickel unless you build
7:54
smelters and other refineries in Indonesia.
7:57
And China invested billions of dollars in doing exactly that.
8:00
And Indonesia got the jobs, moved up the value chain, is now
8:04
producing batteries and electric vehicles.
8:06
So that is a, for example, it is fair enough, but the problem is
8:10
if you don't have the infrastructure or the workforce
8:14
that Indonesia has, you know, you can end up, you know, not
8:18
exporting resources and not creating jobs and also leading
8:22
to to prices to rise and investors to leave.
8:25
But listen, Kathy, there is a panic with American bosses.
8:29
There was a tech boss that said to me recently that he thought
8:33
that, like many people think, China has already won the AI
8:38
robotics race. People are seeing China invest
8:42
in their military. They're seeing them invest in
8:44
AI. They're seeing them, you know,
8:47
be a huge kind of proponent of resource nationalism.
8:51
They just. Don't make as much noise as
8:53
Donald Trump does about it well. Donald Trump makes quite a bit
8:56
of noise, so it's the. Noisiest world leader, but I
8:58
mean, where does he sit in this resource?
9:00
Nationalism, then. Well, I think he he looks at the
9:03
world and you know, he's one of those people who probably looks
9:05
at the dictators around the world and thinks why are we not
9:09
doing the same? Why are we not expanding and
9:12
making the most? I think he's been clear about
9:14
why is the US not capitalizing on its economic power in
9:19
actually monetizing it. That's what the trade wars were
9:23
about last year. And now you're seeing that
9:26
enacted in trying to make a stamp stamp forward for
9:29
resources. We've been talking, talking
9:31
about the markets we've defined this term resource nationalism.
9:34
But let's talk about what it means for ordinary Venezuelans,
9:36
for Americans and for all of us around the world because I was
9:39
really struck talking to an American Venezuelan journalist
9:43
in Venezuela over the weekend. And today.
9:45
In fact, you know, she can't be absolutely, you know, speak from
9:50
the heart about what's happening there because there's people are
9:53
too fearful, you know, still, and and quite rightly so, you
9:56
know, there are armed gangs marauding the streets with with
9:59
weapons. So yet you sense from the
10:03
Venezuelan diaspora a sense of euphoria and hope.
10:07
What does all of this mean in terms of we were talking about
10:10
oil prices for American consumers, for Venezuelan
10:14
consumers? If the market is stabilized by
10:16
Trump, what does it mean for all of us?
10:19
Well, I mean, let's talk about Venezuela first start, you know,
10:22
where GDP per capita is below $4000.
10:27
The opposition leader who actually beat out Donald Trump
10:30
for the Nobel Peace Prize has been quite clear that she
10:34
welcomes private companies to come and drill and win new
10:38
contracts and buy oil assets in order to try and stimulate
10:44
economic growth. So there is, there are some
10:47
signals that the people within Venezuela are keen on that and
10:51
certainly there is a sense that the government hasn't run the
10:57
oil asset, hasn't managed to bring some of the wealth that's
11:00
in its land to its people. We talked about Chevron already,
11:04
the US oil, John, already operating in Venezuela.
11:07
But as Helia said in a joint venture, it's sort of not, you
11:09
know, it's by no means what we understand as sort of
11:12
capitalism. But are there signs from the US
11:15
that other firms are heading there?
11:16
Trump seemed to suggest that at the weekend.
11:18
What are you hearing about that? Yeah, that's we've seen signs
11:21
that other companies are interested.
11:23
But again, the proof is in the pudding how much they're
11:25
actually willing to invest and getting involved because it's
11:28
been the graveyard of a lot of investors.
11:31
We mentioned the nationalizations earlier, but if
11:33
you look at China, they lent over $60 billion to Venezuela
11:38
and they got very little oil. The default on, on the money I
11:43
think Venezuela still owns owes China 10 to 12 billion.
11:47
So they didn't succeed in sorting out the oil industry in
11:50
Venezuela as you said, in partnership with the state owned
11:53
company. So remains to be seen what model
11:56
is actually going to be effective in.
11:58
But when you talk about the nationalizations, you know,
12:00
expropriations as, as it's being described, I mean, this is a
12:03
highly risky proposition for any corporate looking to invest,
12:08
isn't it? Just spell that out for us in
12:09
general terms. Yeah, it is.
12:10
I mean, I think as we've mentioned, the infrastructure,
12:13
the corruption, all these sort of problems and yes, he's the.
12:16
Brain drain. There's been, there's a huge
12:18
amount of engineers, scientists who have left Venezuela.
12:24
I mean, I think Ukraine is the only other country where more
12:26
people have left than Venezuela. So yeah, the brain drain is
12:30
real. Huge problems.
12:32
And Cathy, you know, you could look at Iraq as a salient
12:36
comparison because the the US invaded in 2003.
12:42
And again, there was speculation it was really about the oil.
12:46
Discuss. But it wasn't until 2008 that
12:50
oil production increased, and it wasn't really until 2011 that
12:55
you really saw oil supply ramp up massively.
13:01
So these things are not, you know, easy.
13:04
They're complicated. And you've also got
13:06
constitutional problem here. As you said, at the moment, the
13:10
Venezuelan constitution forbids foreign ownership.
13:13
So you would need a change in the Venezuelan constitution to
13:17
allow American companies to allow European companies to
13:22
invest. And I think they would need some
13:25
reassurance that the political landscape is going to be a bit
13:28
more stable. When you've got civilians
13:31
marauding the streets with weapons on motorbikes, that
13:33
doesn't inspire confidence to most corporates, does it?
13:36
And this is a fundamental contradiction at the heart of
13:38
Trump's resource strategy, which is resources is a long term
13:41
game. All of these projects are long
13:43
term, take decades of investment.
13:47
You know, does the US have that kind of continuity of policy
13:49
that China has or patience and patience, right.
13:52
And and this is the whole problem, like Greenland,
13:54
Ukraine, it's going to take years for for projects to be
13:57
developed. And can the US support
14:01
throughout all those years or because Trump has a sort of
14:03
fantasy of resource imperialism rather than actually being
14:07
involved in the details and the reality.
14:09
And he's also killing a lot of industries that need resources,
14:13
such as clean energy industries. And these are the very
14:15
industries that China dominates. And that's why China is securing
14:19
a lot of Latin America's resources.
14:21
So the US has a contradiction. There's a contradiction in his
14:24
whole premise that I want oil prices to come down, and yet
14:28
drill, baby, drill, those two things don't work within America
14:32
itself. Not not to mention the fact that
14:35
it doesn't get ourselves fossil fuels.
14:37
But the shale industry in the US, you know, has a problem
14:41
because if oil prices come down, American shale companies start
14:46
to lose money. Well, I want to zoom out, and I
14:48
was looking around to see if we used to have a globe in here.
14:51
And I wanted to sort of like, you know, address the globe
14:53
because it literally effects every corner of the world.
14:56
What's happened in the last few days, doesn't it?
14:58
So let's look at Russia because the plummeting oil prices that
15:01
you were speaking about has an impact potentially on Russia's
15:04
war in Ukraine, doesn't it? Because it's funding that from
15:08
selling oil. So if oil prices are plummeting,
15:10
it could undercut Russia's success in Ukraine, couldn't it?
15:13
Yeah, I mean, there's one argument that I think Oleg
15:16
Deripaska I saw posted. The Russian oligarch.
15:20
That's right, yeah, that US could now and if you add up
15:22
Canada, Guyana, Brazil, you know, US has a greater share of
15:28
the globe's oil supply with Venezuela.
15:30
So yeah, could they could they influence prices and and damage
15:33
Russia? I don't know.
15:35
Again, as we've, we've talked about on this podcast,
15:37
Venezuela's oil production is, is, is small at the moment, you
15:40
know, million barrels a day or, or something around that.
15:43
So we need, as we said, it takes years to kind of boost the
15:45
industry. So it remains to be seen, you
15:48
know, what kind of control the US could have.
15:51
But no doubt the US is a fossil fuel power, is becoming a
15:55
greater fossil fuel oil power. But is that the right game to be
16:00
in? That's my question.
16:01
You know, and China's the opposite side.
16:02
It's a clean energy superpower and you've got to look at what
16:05
investors are are thinking and shares of clean energy companies
16:09
have actually done well over Trump over the last 12.
16:11
Months, yeah, but is that about to change?
16:12
If you've got this potential glut of oil and cheaper oil, is
16:18
that going to? For example, here we hear a lot
16:20
of pressure on the government in the UK about their net zero
16:24
drive and their push for renewables.
16:26
Are the opposition going to start saying we should take
16:28
advantage of this glut of cheap oil?
16:32
Yes, I, I think outside China could well change and we've seen
16:35
backlash, we've seen a lot of questioning of net 0 targets
16:38
unpopularity. So yes, I think it could.
16:41
But China is, again is the big consumer of all resources and
16:45
all commodities and they have a firm strategy for electric
16:48
vehicles, for moving off oil. They don't want to rely on oil
16:51
imports, especially not in the current environment.
16:54
So I think that is pretty certain and that's going to be
16:58
the direction China takes, which will impact all commodities.
17:02
Look, cheaper oil is good for consumers.
17:05
It's good for consumers in the US, which Donald Trump is very
17:08
keen on. It's very important for him.
17:10
And the whole affordability issue in the US, it's good for
17:14
consumers in the UK. The the question is, you know,
17:19
what does it mean in terms of the move to green energy?
17:23
Does it disincentivize our move away from fossil fuels?
17:27
But also the irony of the fact that it actually hurts US
17:32
producers. And I think that is quite
17:34
interesting. You were talking about Russia.
17:37
Lower oil price hurts Iran, it hurts Russia.
17:41
Taking away Venezuelan oil won't damage China, but Venezuelan 80%
17:47
of the Venezuelan and oil now goes to China so although.
17:50
Trump has made noises about, you know, they'll get all the oil
17:53
They're they're currently buying from Venezuela.
17:55
And we saw these what they called dark tankers, you know,
17:58
ghost. Tankers.
17:59
Ghost tankers. Exactly.
18:00
Ghost tankers. Dark mode sailing out of.
18:03
I think that that point is interesting because the bigger
18:06
issue here is, is Trump sort of dividing the world up into
18:09
spheres of influence? Are we going to see a big grand
18:12
bargain where it's like you get out of Latin America, but you
18:15
can have the Pacific or you, you know, Southeast Asia, Russia
18:18
can, you know, And that's the bigger question in my mind.
18:21
It's total. Imperialist vibes, isn't it?
18:23
Yes, it's a throwback to dividing up up the world.
18:26
Because you heard Marco Rubio on the weekend saying again, we're
18:29
not going to allow our adversaries to create a base in
18:34
the Western Hemisphere. I mean, people like Chevron have
18:37
said for years, this hasn't happened.
18:39
Actually, China hasn't created a base in Venezuela.
18:42
They haven't really capitalized on the fact that the US
18:46
operators have have disappeared. But obviously it helps the
18:50
narrative. Maybe you don't need to have a
18:52
complete invasion of American companies in order to control
18:57
the tap. It makes Chinese teapot
18:59
refineries have to pay more for oil.
19:03
That helps US strategic intentions and it puts pressure
19:08
on other countries. But it's a new colonialism,
19:10
isn't it? Yeah, But I think the biggest
19:12
issue in my mind is these Latin American countries, the the
19:15
reason why China was so successful in Latin.
19:17
These countries are new, essentially neutral.
19:21
A country like Chile, China is their biggest export market.
19:24
They don't want to upset China and they're not picking sides.
19:29
And this is the issue is, are these countries going to sign up
19:32
to this new, you know, Monroe Doctrine, you know, are they
19:36
willing to alienate and push back against China?
19:38
I just don't think so because China is the source of trade but
19:43
there's a non. Buyer like, I mean, think of
19:45
their agriculture at the moment. Think of soybeans.
19:47
We've talked about on this show, soybeans and American farmers,
19:50
Brazil, Argentina, huge soybean kind of growers and they all
19:56
sell it to China. So the China's position in Latin
19:59
America, despite all of Trump's, you know, cries to the contrary,
20:03
is very powerful. Well, let's talk about we've
20:06
talked about colonialism and imperialism.
20:08
So let's look at where this goes next because Trump has been
20:14
clear today that Greenland is potentially in his sights.
20:17
He said it before, but he said it with new clarity today.
20:21
He's also talked about Cuba, even Mexico, which is bizarre
20:26
because Mexico and the US are jointly hosting the World Cup.
20:29
So how does that work? And how much of this is serious?
20:31
What's your answer to How serious is he about Greenland,
20:34
for example? Well, I think we've been told to
20:36
take him out of his word, right? And we should actually believe
20:39
what he says. And as we can see from from the
20:41
action that was initiated, I think, yeah, we should be, we
20:45
should be concerned. And we saw Denmark, I think put
20:46
out a strong, strong statement. So, so, so we should be
20:51
concerned, I mean, I think. Enough now, they said, didn't
20:53
they? It was in sort of Trump esque
20:55
terms, which is obviously the way that people, world leaders
20:58
think they have to talk to Trump these days.
21:00
Yeah. But I think you know Greenland,
21:01
the resource angle is spurious right there.
21:03
Yes, there are resources, but again, I don't like this the
21:06
reserves term that we've talked about, you know, yes, may maybe
21:09
resources, but at what price to get out, what kind of CapEx,
21:13
who's who's going to spend the money?
21:15
Well, is that is that tricky to to?
21:16
It's really tricky to get to the resource beneath Greenland.
21:19
Yeah, quality of the raw success.
21:20
You know, there's lots of problems.
21:22
Not that you know you would seize Greenland and tomorrow be
21:24
a big producer of rare earths. Shipping lanes as well with
21:28
Greenland as. Well, yes, it's obviously a
21:29
strategic angles, but a big, big, big question is if he goes
21:32
to Greenland. About colonialism.
21:35
Yeah, what would Europe do? This could be a test of
21:37
Europe's, you know. Well, Europe has been.
21:41
Europe's metal. Europe's metal has been limp, to
21:45
say the least, since the attack happened, hasn't it?
21:48
So where in the spheres of influence?
21:51
We've talked about China, we've talked about America, we've
21:54
mentioned Russia. That's how it's sort of carved
21:57
up, isn't it? Do you want to add anyone else
21:59
into that? I, I think Europe is in a tricky
22:01
situation because it, it, you know, it's a big market for, for
22:04
China. Does it push back against,
22:06
against China risk, risk upsetting China.
22:09
It's now the US, we saw from the national security strategy, the
22:13
US really down on Europe saying Europe is, you know, facing huge
22:18
cultural problems. So US is also is becoming
22:21
antagonistic to Europe. So where does, where does Europe
22:25
go? I I think the only answer is
22:29
greater European unity, right and and greater resolve, you
22:33
know, within Europe. Let's end with asking the
22:35
question that I've been asking myself all weekend and asking
22:38
every guest I get on the program.
22:40
What next? What is your prediction in terms
22:42
of what Donald Trump does next in Venezuela, but beyond
22:46
Venezuela too? And how does this just build a
22:50
picture of this new era of resource nationalism, resort
22:55
colonialism, new imperialism, whatever you want to call it,
22:58
your terminology? What are what are we looking at
23:00
next? Yeah.
23:01
So I mean, Venezuela seems incredibly uncertain from what I
23:03
read. Again, I'm not obviously there,
23:05
but what actually is the US going to do to to to run the
23:09
place? I mean, he initially said we're
23:10
going to run it. And then I think the State
23:12
Department sort of cooled that down.
23:14
What are they actually gonna do? And the similar, you mentioned
23:17
Iraq earlier, but, you know, it went into Iraq, but then there
23:20
was no plan right for for Day 2 or actually running the country.
23:22
And it was chaos. And we could still see boots on
23:25
the ground in Venezuela. That has not been ruled.
23:26
Out hasn't ruled that out. So how What are they actually
23:29
gonna do? Are they gonna run the country?
23:31
Because, you know, they've had this very successful mission?
23:35
That's the kind of thing Trump likes, He said.
23:37
It was like watching TV. But to your point that the you
23:40
know the concentration span isn't there for the long term,
23:43
these are. That's the problem sugar hit and
23:45
that's that's my answer to your question about the whole
23:48
strategy is what follow the money, right.
23:50
Yes, you've got what he wants Greenland and all these other
23:53
places. Is the money from from U.S.
23:56
companies actually going to follow and actually invest in
23:59
these? Countries this weekend, Who's an
24:02
energy analyst said said that they think that it would cost
24:06
$110 billion in order to get Venezuelan production to where
24:11
it was just 10 years ago. That's huge, The money for
24:15
rebuilding Gaza, rebuilding Ukraine.
24:17
The US has got fingers in all. These pies exactly for U.S.
24:20
companies to actually spend that money when the climate is
24:24
uncertain where the political landscapes are in certain not
24:27
just in Venezuela by the way, but in the US because what
24:30
happens when Trump in three years time is no longer in
24:34
office and. What would you call this new era
24:36
we're in? Then?
24:37
Ioffer you various terminologies.
24:38
What would you go? For I think it's a scramble for
24:40
resources against the backdrop of a tested energy transition,
24:45
which on the one hand, China is leading and, and the US is is
24:48
fighting against. But just to the earlier point, I
24:51
think the difference, the US in many ways is trying to do a
24:53
China, but the difference is the companies still operate As for
24:57
profit corporates. Chinese companies can be told to
25:00
go in and make losses and and invest and.
25:02
Suck it. Up.
25:03
But U.S. companies just can't do that.
25:05
So how will the corporate side of America follow Trump's
25:08
policies? As I say, follow the money.
25:10
Are they actually going to back his broader strategy?
25:14
Helia Henry, thank you both very much.
25:17
That is it for this episode of The FORECAST.
25:19
Until next time, goodbye.