Latest / The Shed Organics Show / #54 - How Compost Can Fix Your Soil | John Bond [Living Earth Biology]

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#54 - How Compost Can Fix Your Soil | John Bond [Living Earth Biology] · The Shed Organics Show

0:00
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the Shared
0:03
Organics show. Today we are talking all things
0:08
soil and soil biology with the incredible Jon Bond.
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And Jon is a soil biology specialist.
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He's a student of Doctor Elaine Ingham, Soil Food Web School.
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And you know, like myself, I find all of those topics so
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absolutely fascinating, and Doctor Relayne is an absolute
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legend in the game. So to be able to speak with John
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and pick his brain on what he's learned, the experiences that
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he's had, and seeing exactly how he transformed spaces has been
0:41
really interesting for me. As a soil lover myself, I think
0:44
it's just one of the most fascinating parts of our living
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and natural world, how this soil works and the symbiotic
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relationship with the plants. It's just such a crazy thing and
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to be able to dive into it is so much fun for me.
1:01
Selfishly, obviously, but today's episode, we don't dive
1:05
too crazy day because this topic can be, you know, this.
1:09
The podcast could go for hours and hours and hours, but I think
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we managed to touch on a few really practical and helpful
1:16
examples of what you can do to improve your soil, what to focus
1:19
on, what John's number one thing is for improving your soil and
1:23
improving your soil biology, I should say.
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But so much to learn, so strap in.
1:28
Here is the conversation with Jon Bond.
1:49
Why living soil? Why soil biology?
1:51
What captured you into diving into this?
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It's something that I absolutely love, so I'm always interested
1:57
to find out why someone else is, you know, pulled towards soil
2:02
and soil biology. Yeah, yeah.
2:04
So I didn't see it coming. It was a number of years ago
2:09
now, maybe maybe six years ago. I was quite unwell, right?
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I had serious, serious depression and and I, I said to
2:20
myself, right when I get better, I want to do something that
2:24
gives back. But I had no idea what that was
2:27
going to be, absolutely no idea. And and my, my wife, who's now
2:33
my ex-wife, she said to me, let's go out and watch a movie
2:36
tonight and and we're going to watch and it's called 2040 now.
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I had no idea what that movie was.
2:43
And, and I thought it was going to be like a sci-fi or something
2:47
like that. I'm like, yeah, let's go.
2:49
So we so we rocked up and and it's the movie 2040, which is
2:55
the documentary about, you know, how life could be if we change
2:59
things. Yeah.
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So I was a bit surprised to be sitting there watching the
3:03
documentary. And but what the, the thing
3:07
about that, that documentary that changed my life was the
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fact that farming was the one of the biggest contributors towards
3:19
upsetting the planet, upsetting the carbon system, upsetting the
3:23
carbon cycle or the water cycle. I remember just sitting there
3:27
just going like literally, my jaw was in my lap and I couldn't
3:32
believe it. And, and I got outside that
3:35
movie theater and I was standing.
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I was just in shock, could not believe it.
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And I've always liked growing my own food.
3:43
And I think I was growing my my own food at the time.
3:46
And I was so shocked. I was thought, I just want to, I
3:51
just want to do something about that.
3:53
And I had no idea, again, no idea what I could do about it.
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And so I set about searching all the info that I got from that
4:02
movie and then and I came across this woman, Doctor Elaine
4:06
Ingham. Yes.
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And I'm like, she's really on to something.
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So I followed her for a while and watched her YouTube, things
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on YouTube about her. And I decided I want to, I want
4:22
to do this program. I want to, I want to study that.
4:26
So I did, I studied, I, I joined the soil food web school and,
4:32
and qualified in that eventually qualified.
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I was actually qualifying while the floods were on all right.
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And so just when I was about to do my final exams, we, we, we
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got wiped out with the floods. No way.
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Yeah, so, but I, but I didn't determine because when I saw the
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floods and I saw all this land completely flooded, I thought
5:00
everything's just going to come back as weeds.
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Yeah, I just knew it was going to be weeds so soon, as soon as
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the waters had died down, I just went out to find people who
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would want help. And the 1st place I went to was
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a place in Mullumbimby near me called the Paddock Project.
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OK. And yeah, so there, it's a, it's
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a place where Karen who runs it, she employs people who would
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ordinarily not be employed. So they have some form of
5:30
disability. So it's a, it's a beautiful
5:33
place. And and they sell their produce
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to local stop shops, cafes, and you'll say you can go there and
5:45
pick up your produce. Anyway, I went to that place and
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I said hey, show me your worst, the worst area on your in your
5:55
market garden and let me help you.
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So that's pretty much what I did.
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And I turned 1 area that they called the dead beds.
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And even before the floods they couldn't grow anything in that
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area. And so I set to work, followed
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all the principles I'd learned from the course and we pretty
6:16
much turned that area into a productive area.
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And now that that area, which was once even before the floods
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was unworkable, is now an area that they can that they can
6:30
produce from. So that was that was kind of the
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start of my, yeah, my career, really.
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That's really cool. And then just just because I
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want to tap on it a little bit there with them because I've
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I've learnt I've been watching a lot of the soul food web school,
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you know, they put out a lot of these free kind of lectures and
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things. I've never qualified in it
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myself, but followed them for years.
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They're absolutely brilliant. Doctor Elaine obviously just
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retired as well. What is it?
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What is it about that course and that that structure that really
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drew you to it initially? Because I know you said that
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like a lot of the things she says makes sense.
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But my question is really because this is more based
7:17
around the biology, around the chemistry, the science of it,
7:20
the real nuts and bolts. There's a lot of people that
7:22
tend to just kind of stop when it hits soil and we just talk
7:26
about soil. But then there's some of us that
7:28
just absolutely love to dive into what's happening in that
7:32
life and things like that. Was there anything that you
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know, any background or anything that relates to science or
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anything that you were just interested in or did?
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Is this just a a means to an end in terms of what you were
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learning and growing with? So for me, when I was, when I
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decided I wanted to do something in soil, all the courses I could
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see that were in Australia had everything to do with soil and I
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just specifically wanted to work with biology.
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Cool. So that, that was the first
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thing. Secondly, I'm a practical
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person, right? So I've been, I've been in the
8:13
building industry on and off since I was about 18.
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So I'm very practically orientated.
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And thirdly, I've also been a primary school teacher and I
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also taught science. That was one of the big passions
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in teaching. So it really fitted me in terms
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of the way it was taught, which I could relate to and and it
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being a very practical, you know, practical focus, like
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here's some information, here's some science, this is what you
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can actually do with that. So for me, that's how it that
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was the big draw card for. Me that's beautiful.
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Thank you. Because that extra context about
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how understanding sort of other areas of your life where you
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were coming from, it helps to kind of set up why that was a
9:02
draw to you. Because that same for me being
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somebody who at school probably wasn't all of that interested in
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science, but I'm just a general nature lover and and like to
9:14
understand things very deeply. So then for me, I'm just like,
9:17
well, I can't just call it soil if there's all these things in
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it, I need to figure out what they are.
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So that's really helpful. Thank you.
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Can you go back to to now onwards from joining this
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project? You'll have to remind me of the
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name for the farm in Mullen Bimby.
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But once you had started that sort of thing, how, how and, and
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what did the the next step look like in terms of your career and
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building a world around soil and becoming around sort of living
9:46
soil biology? OK, so from that after that I, I
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did some projects for the Byron Shire Council and I did a series
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of workshops. So I was teaching people how to
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make compost in the Doctor Elaine Ingham way, which is a
10:10
hot compost, teaching people a little bit about soil biology
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and the importance of it and how it works.
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I also went out to find other people in my community where I
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could actually apply those principles just to get feedback
10:34
so I could start building like a resume, if you like, of
10:39
experience. Then I had then I had a big
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period of not doing anything. I went through a divorce and you
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know, a breakup. So I didn't really do that much.
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And then, and then I came back, back to the, to the industry and
10:58
started working on a farm here locally where I live.
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And I still actually work on that farm and, and I actually
11:07
hire a space there. And that's where I make my
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compost is on their farm. But we did some trials of it's a
11:15
400 acre farm and we worked on I think something like 16
11:21
hectares. Goodness me.
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And again, it was the worst area of the farm.
11:26
It was the area that floods the most.
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It was the area that I later found out got a load of
11:34
fertilizer and that dumped on it like going back like 10-15
11:38
years, you know, a long time ago.
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And after a year, we increased on average, we increased all the
11:48
biology by tenfold in a year. So and we're going to roll that
11:54
out to the to the 400 acres. We're just going to pretty much
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pop you what we did over 400 acres.
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So that was a great, that was a great project.
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And I and I actually created a really nice friendship out of
12:08
that as well with the farmer there.
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So beautiful. I think that.
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That part of it as well is something that's not often
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spoken, spoken about the human element of working together with
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other people and the soil, the natural world.
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You kind of you feel like it's this real authentic and primal
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sort of move that we're all making.
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And I love this project that you've just spoken about and
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just broaden up about transforming such a large piece
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of land. I think typically, you know,
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most of my listeners, including myself, don't have huge amounts
12:43
of land and huge plots. So like for myself to transform
12:47
my soil here from a really, you know, heavily compacted clay
12:52
lawn into a thriving garden has been easier than I had had
12:58
anticipated because of the size, because it's I can put a lot of
13:03
organic matter in a small amount of a space.
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So I can build the level of organic matter I can put in all
13:09
of the life that I want to encourage the life.
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I should say, when you're working on a massive scale,
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John, how are you? How are you tackling the
13:18
problems, you know, without, I suppose I don't want you to give
13:23
away any, anything too close to your chest.
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But if is there anything that you can help us with in terms of
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techniques that you used to transform this space When you're
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trying to consider things like financial, you know, cost of
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some, some of the things it's so it's almost impossible to make a
13:41
compost pile big enough for 16 hectares.
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What sort of techniques are you using on that scale to improve
13:49
the soil? For the coming back to the
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compost part of it, you'd actually don't need that much
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because right, like an extractor or?
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Something. Yeah, it's an extract.
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So for me, compost is my waste product.
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Yes, right. So I'm, I'm, I'm after the
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organisms that are in the compost rather than the compost
14:10
just itself itself. So I think we did, we did about
14:19
800, maybe 1000 litres of compost, which is.
14:24
Like 1 shuttle? Yeah, it's not a huge amount.
14:27
It's not a huge amount, but it was, you know, rich with
14:30
organisms. So, and so that that's pretty
14:34
much what we used is just an extract.
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Cost wise, again, it's, it's, it's not that expensive really
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if you, if you compared it to someone spending putting lime
14:56
out, for example, or putting out a chicken manure, it's like, you
15:01
know, cost wise, it's pretty much in the same kind of area.
15:07
But long term, it's much better to put organisms out than it is
15:11
to put anything else out. So the cost really the cost side
15:19
of it comes down to the machinery that you're going to
15:22
need to process that amount of that, that, that amount of
15:27
extract and also to put that extract out.
15:30
So that's where the that's where the cost is.
15:33
We 'cause we were starting off with trials, we just made it
15:37
work like we would, we would, we were driving out with like a 200
15:41
litre barrel strapped to a little like 4 wheel drive buggy
15:48
with a, with a, with a pump, you know, a big, a big diaphragm
15:53
pump that's just plugged into the battery.
15:55
And we just made it work. We had a little tiny boom and we
15:58
just made it work because now we're going to scale up.
16:02
So now we're looking at let's get a big extractor.
16:06
I've already purchased a much bigger sprayer, a much bigger
16:10
pump. So that's where the cost is, is
16:14
in the equipment rather than the actual compost and the extracts.
16:18
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Typically the inputs like the,
16:20
the reason I brought that up is because typically inputs are a
16:24
lot of what people have to bring in.
16:26
And it's interesting when you don't have a lot of budget, but
16:30
you want to be putting some biology out there, how easily it
16:34
can be replicated up to a large scale or brewed up, I should
16:38
say, to a larger scale. So you can take these compost
16:43
organisms, you can multiply them yourself.
16:46
You can also do things like a ferment and, and various ways of
16:51
extracting from plant material or just brewing up a small batch
16:55
into a larger batch using food and things like this for the
16:59
microbes. Is that a sort of, have you gone
17:03
that far yet to, to work into the world of like a ferments or,
17:07
or anything like that? Or is are you strictly sort of
17:09
sticking to the diverse compost organisms and things like this?
17:15
Pretty much, yeah. I haven't done, I haven't done a
17:17
firm in I rarely do any kind of brewing.
17:23
So the difference difference between just for the listeners
17:27
there the difference between an extract and a compost tea.
17:32
So people get them mixed up. So an extract is surely you're,
17:37
you're extracting the microorganisms out of the
17:40
compost into water and then you're just applying that to to
17:45
the soil. So that's an extract, right?
17:48
It's no. Sorry to jump in.
17:50
It's that typically, like for example, when I've done an, an
17:53
extract of sorts, I have, I've blasted my compost with a, a
17:57
strong pressure hose or something to really try and get
18:01
all of those organisms off the compost material into the water,
18:06
because I was taught that that was a thing to do.
18:09
So have you been taught that? Is that something that?
18:13
You would do? No, I wouldn't do that.
18:15
OK, cool. No this.
18:17
This is. Good.
18:18
Why would? Why wouldn't we?
18:20
Yeah, because when you're blasting those organisms with a
18:23
high pressure hose, maybe you're doing it in a bucket.
18:27
Yeah, yeah, right. So, so then they're, they're
18:30
being blasted against the bucket and they can be damaged.
18:33
Right. OK, Yeah.
18:34
Right. So how I do it with air, so I do
18:39
it with I've got a couple of different size pumps and, and
18:45
the compost goes into a bag into a compost bag you can use, you
18:51
can use actually a paint straining bag.
18:53
I've tested it and and the paint, the paint straining bag
18:57
allows nematodes to get out. So if nematodes can get out
19:01
everything else, everything else.
19:02
Yeah. And and the paint straining bag
19:06
will go into a bucket or a big barrel and then air is blasted
19:10
into that bag. And it's a much gentle way of
19:14
getting the organisms off the compost.
19:17
Yes, because they don't. They like, in fact, you could
19:19
use a bag and then you put, put about a handful of compost in
19:24
the bag and then squeeze the bag like just gently, like, like,
19:29
and that's enough. Yeah.
19:32
Like, like now a big bag, like a, a bag that's, you know, yay
19:36
big, a giant. And you're, yeah, a giant fever,
19:38
like a giant teaver. And you're gently squeezing that
19:44
compost and that's enough force knock the organisms off, whereas
19:48
the hose pipe is probably damaging them.
19:50
Yeah, thank you. Well, thank you because I had,
19:53
I'd heard that actually a couple of times and probably just, you
19:57
know, made the assumption that because these people are doing
19:59
it, that I should be doing it too.
20:01
So I This is why we have these conversations, John, because
20:04
it's like it's helpful to find out what is actually the best
20:07
practice in some of these. So, so that's really good.
20:09
So then how? How does that?
20:12
Go with AT because AT is more brewed using oxygen, correct?
20:16
Yeah, yeah. So with ATI, would only use AT
20:19
if I'm going to do a folia spray.
20:22
Yeah, OK. Right.
20:23
So, and the, the, the difference is when you feed microorganisms,
20:30
they start, they become more active.
20:34
And when they're active, they start producing a glue, they
20:37
start producing an alkaline glue, and they use that glue to
20:40
stick themselves to the food that they're eating.
20:44
Right. OK.
20:44
And so now you've got these organisms that are producing the
20:48
glue that you're going to spray on folia.
20:51
And so they're going to stick to the folio much easier, much more
20:54
easily. Now coming back to the food,
20:59
you'd be surprised at how actually little food you need to
21:03
put in system. So I've seen so many people in
21:08
like a 20 litre bucket put in way too much food in the bucket,
21:13
which what's going to happen is the the organisms are going to
21:18
go, yeah, you know, we've got loads of food and they're going
21:21
to start consuming that food. They're going to start
21:23
multiplying. And at the same time they're
21:26
consuming oxygen. So you're going to get a big
21:29
spike in, in the growth of organisms and then a big drop in
21:35
oxygen. And so now you probably haven't
21:39
in fact increased the organisms. In fact, you've probably got a
21:41
lot of them have died off because there's not a lot of
21:44
oxygen. So, you know, a rule, if I was,
21:48
if I was brewing, say in a 20 litre bucket, I probably
21:54
wouldn't put molasses or any kind of sugar in there because
21:58
there's already enough bacteria, right?
22:01
So, but we want to feed our fungi.
22:06
And so in that 20 litre bucket, I might just put a tablespoon of
22:13
of food for, for fungi. So like a tablespoon of fish
22:18
hydrolysate that was, I've seen enough.
22:21
That's it. You know, if you think how tiny
22:24
those organisms are and how much and a tablespoon of true
22:29
hydrolysin, you know, So yeah, you really don't need that much,
22:35
yeah. That's that's true.
22:36
I tend to use yeah, like a a kelp or a fish with for us a
22:42
fungi or a more aerobic brew. If I'm doing an anaerobic brew,
22:50
then I'll be using molasses. Like I recently just did a
22:54
fermented plant extract myself, an anaerobic one with a little
22:59
airlock and, and everything. So and I brewed up 20 litres
23:03
with a plant extract and I used EM1 basically.
23:07
So it's a, it's an EM1 lacto blend.
23:10
And then that was with the molasses.
23:14
But what was really interesting what you just said is that it
23:18
possibly was slightly too much food because even in that
23:23
anaerobic environment, it was slightly too much because it
23:27
took a lot longer for that sweet smell to come down and the pH to
23:32
drop nice and low. So I probably overdid it and
23:35
that was going off the traditional like KNF Jadam
23:39
recipes that come on these EM1 bottles.
23:42
So I could probably have gone a little bit less and reached the
23:46
right end point a lot quicker. So that's really interesting.
23:51
So then that's the that's the compost tea in a compost
23:53
extract. And you're using those on a
23:55
larger scale to improve some of these these areas.
23:58
Is this the same sort of techniques that you were doing
24:01
down at this other farm in the dead beds?
24:04
Yeah, yeah, exactly the same. So it's just scaled up, you
24:06
know, so it's, it's exactly the same.
24:09
If I was doing a Folia, I would just, I would brew my extract
24:16
the like 24 to 36 hours. Or if I was just going to treat
24:21
the soil, I'm just going to do a straight extract.
24:24
So it's the same thing. Like I might be using a watering
24:27
can for these beds there or on a farm I'm using a big spraying
24:32
rig. So it's the same same thing.
24:35
Yeah. So then alongside obviously, you
24:38
know, adding in the biology is one thing, but alongside that
24:42
they have this big symbolic biotic relationship with roots
24:47
and, and just even the general structure of the soil.
24:50
So how, how else are you using techniques around this?
24:55
Like obviously in a market garden situation, you probably
24:58
are going to try and be planting some things in there or maybe,
25:02
you know, I'm begin to chop and drop and using green manures and
25:05
cover crops and things like this and then mulching areas to keep
25:09
moisture in. Are you doing all of these
25:10
things alongside adding in like for a market garden or a garden
25:15
bed alongside with adding in the biology?
25:17
Yeah, absolutely. Because put in biology in the
25:24
ground that doesn't have a plant in the ground is a waste of
25:28
time. Yeah, an absolute waste of time
25:31
because like you mentioned, there is the symbiotic
25:33
relationship. If you take one out of that that
25:38
relationship, then the other one suffers.
25:41
So if I put biology into a a bed that's got no plants in it, most
25:47
of those organisms are gonna at best go to sleep, at worst just
25:51
die. So yeah, the same.
25:54
There has to be live roots in the ground, Yeah, in order for
25:58
the organisms to. And this is this is still OK
26:01
with grasses and like broad acre scenarios that it because
26:04
they've still got some roots in the ground presumably.
26:07
And hopefully if it's not being fully, you know, poisoned has
26:12
some sort of life in it, just not maybe in the right ratios or
26:17
the right amounts. And yeah, yeah.
26:19
So, yeah, talk to me about that then.
26:22
What sort of what sort of things would you like?
26:27
Are you choosing plants? Are you choosing cover crops or
26:30
are you just generally people are just trying to grow things
26:33
like monetary crops or produce and then we're just sort of
26:38
seeing how it goes and it might get better over time.
26:40
Or are you choosing specific plants to help feed the soil or
26:44
to fix nitrogen or to break apart compaction, all of these
26:48
types of things that say a cover crop does?
26:51
Is there any selection in terms of that or are you just at mercy
26:54
to the project and what they want to to be growing?
26:57
Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.
26:59
I'm not, I'm not choosing plants for them.
27:02
I'm I'm suggesting like on this 400 acre project they've tried
27:08
in the past, they've tried a multi species cover crop, but it
27:13
didn't germinate because oh. Really.
27:16
That wasn't the organisms in the ground.
27:18
So now we've got the response out of the soil, we can go back
27:24
to the multi species cover crop. But generally I'm not all I'm
27:30
saying to people is you need to have plants in the ground, you
27:34
know, so so I'm not specifically choosing crops for people.
27:39
Yeah. Yeah.
27:40
Well, you don't often have to go down that road.
27:45
Just adding in the biology is probably the, you know, the best
27:49
value for your buck in terms of a move you can make.
27:52
So a lot of people are not understanding that the biology
27:55
side of things. So having you put that in or
27:59
educate them into putting that in can make a big difference.
28:03
So, so then I'm just so interested in this the actual
28:09
biology side of things. And John, if we, if we go into
28:12
it a little bit without trying to scare away too many of the
28:16
the listeners who aren't all of that biology focus.
28:20
Let's talk about possibly the bacteria to fungal ratio that we
28:25
find in our soils. I've heard that a good medium is
28:29
about a 5050. So you've got about 1 to 1
28:33
bacteria to fungal ratios. If you have an old growth forest
28:36
or a lot of woody material, you're tending to find a more
28:39
fungal dominated soil. And then vice versa.
28:43
Dice open, you know, flat not growing soil or compacted soil
28:48
with not much in it is bacteria dominated.
28:52
Are you thinking about this when, when trying to, to, to
28:56
feed life in the soil, are you trying to do a general balance
29:00
of bacteria fungal or you just trying to, like you said
29:03
earlier, basically attack the fungal ones because they're the
29:06
ones that we see most depleted in our soils?
29:09
Yeah, so there's a few things there they brought so one of
29:13
them is and and again, not to scare people off, right.
29:17
So let's let's keep it really simple.
29:19
Let's keep it really practical, so.
29:22
Hey, guys, really quickly jumping in.
29:23
I just want to remind you, if you are not subscribed to this
29:27
show, that is the number one thing that you can do to show me
29:30
your support. So if you're finding value from
29:32
this conversation and you're deeply engaged, I would love you
29:35
to hit the follow or subscribe button.
29:37
All right, back to the show. One of the things is the, the
29:42
simplest way that you can get biology into your, into your
29:46
garden, right, is to make your own compost.
29:50
That's like the, that's the best thing that you can do as a as a
29:54
grower, as a backyard grower, as a farmer, and you can make your
29:58
own compost, right. So, so that's, that's number one
30:04
is the best thing you can do. So in terms of ratios, it kind
30:09
of depends what you want to grow.
30:12
So in, in open pasture, I'm, I'm getting as close to 1:00 to 1:00
30:17
as possible, right? I've heard of people trying to
30:22
push it higher than that. But from what I learned from
30:26
Elaningham 1 to one, it's that works, right?
30:31
If you're growing in your, you know, product your row crops
30:37
like whether it's whether it's big scale or small scale, you're
30:43
looking at about .75. So it's a little bit higher than
30:47
is. This towards towards bacteria or
30:50
towards fungal? Towards bacteria, right.
30:53
So it's so it's more leaning towards bacteria in in your
30:57
cropping situation. Yeah, but you know, most people
31:01
are not going to know unless you've got a microscope what you
31:06
know, which one is which. So it and again, I'm a practical
31:09
person. So so it just comes the best
31:13
thing that you can do is is to make compost.
31:16
That is the number one. And something else you said,
31:21
which was in terms of feeding the organisms, right.
31:25
So this is a mistake that I see with backyard production and
31:32
with people who are doing pasture and popping.
31:36
They say to me, Oh, I've I've put all the bio stimulants in
31:40
the ground, but nothing happened.
31:43
And I'm like, well, what are you feeding?
31:45
Yeah, you know, so it's like it's like a chef cooking up a
31:50
whole plate of food and then putting it out in his
31:53
restaurant. All these plates of food on a
31:56
table, but there's no one in the restaurant to eat it right.
32:00
So I see that quite often and it it's biostimulants.
32:05
They work as long as you know, the organisms are in there.
32:09
Do you know what I mean? So if you've got if if in if
32:13
you're a home gardener, you make your own compost and you
32:17
regularly use that compost in your garden, whether you make an
32:21
extract or whether you actually physically put it there then
32:24
biostimulants are going to work, right.
32:28
So biostimulants are like seaweed extracts, fish
32:32
hydrolysate. They're the main ones that I
32:36
would be using. So they will work if you're
32:39
already using compost. If you're just starting out and
32:43
you just start in a fresh garden and you just put seaweed extract
32:47
and biostimulants out, fish hydrolysate, for example, you're
32:52
not going to get the response because the organisms are not
32:55
there to take up the food. Yeah, so it just always, always,
33:00
always, always comes back to compost.
33:03
Yeah. So that is like the number one
33:04
thing that you can do first and foremost because you're you're
33:07
guaranteed to be putting in especially if you've done it
33:10
yourself and you haven't bought one of these sterilized
33:13
mainstream ones. But if you've done it yourself
33:16
and and you're you've put diversity of organic matter,
33:19
you've done a good compost, you are going to be adding in all of
33:24
that correct biology. So then when you are putting in
33:26
a stimulant of some sort or a growth promoter, we're getting
33:31
that response. You're actually seeing some sort
33:33
of, you know, visual like response from the leaves or from
33:38
the plants themselves. I've definitely found that,
33:42
especially because, you know, like I said, I'm transforming a
33:45
section of lawn into a productive area.
33:48
I found that initially before I put in, I guess sort of compost
33:55
and well, I'd made-up a really good sort of soil base to begin
34:00
with using compost. So it sort of already had that
34:03
in there. I was confident already had it
34:04
in there. But I noticed that over time,
34:07
these inputs that it like I'm using a kelp or a fish
34:11
hydrolysate. It's, it's definitely the, it's
34:15
getting better and better over time.
34:16
There's more response and I, I use things like fumic acid,
34:21
sorry, humic acid and fulvic acid and things like this to
34:26
help with just generally increasing the ability for all
34:31
of these organisms to do things and to collate certain nutrients
34:35
and stuff. But we won't go too far deep
34:37
into that. When you said growing stuff in,
34:42
in rows, I want to just go back to that you said about having
34:45
produce that generally they're going to be a more bacterial
34:48
dominated or they're going to want to be bacterial dominated.
34:51
Is there a reason why bacteria over fungal in that situation?
34:57
And is it a problem if people have lots of fungus in the soil
35:03
or a fungal dominated soil and they're trying to grow produce?
35:10
I think if if you having it slightly more bacteria
35:15
dominated, as long as you've got predators in there.
35:18
So as long as you're using compost, you're going to have
35:20
predators that are going to eat the bacteria.
35:23
You're going to get a slightly faster cycling of nutrients
35:28
through that system. Yes, OK.
35:31
Yeah. Yeah, that's probably the main
35:36
reason. Of.
35:38
Yeah, of, of having that if say you're cropping things like say
35:45
tomatoes, you know all that family they're going to they're
35:50
going to prefer slightly more fungally dominated, right.
35:55
But but generally, certainly from all the research that
35:59
Elaine Ingham did is in that cropping situation, it's
36:05
slightly more leaning towards bacteria because you get a
36:09
faster, as long as the predators, predators are there,
36:13
you get a faster turnover of nutrients like nutrient cycling.
36:17
Yeah, I've definitely found that.
36:20
So, so an interesting thing that I've found is that they're like
36:25
obviously, and this has worked quite, you know, I've seen this
36:28
a lot. It's basically in a pot.
36:30
If you've grown up a plant that's too big for its pot, the
36:33
biology in that pot is not able to keep up with the nutrient
36:36
demands of that plant and therefore the plant suffers.
36:39
But I've noticed it's worse in a potting mix or a soil medium
36:47
that is sort of more heavily carbon dominated or has a lot
36:52
more wood in it, which I guess in, in my thinking is tending to
36:57
feed more fungus, having a more fungal dominated soil.
37:00
And it's, there's less of that bacteria.
37:04
Whereas with I've got like a, a structure, say for example, I
37:07
made a structure myself out of like a peat Moss or a cocoa, a
37:12
compost and some aeration things like like pumice or scoria.
37:18
And I'm finding that that medium, because there's not as
37:22
much woody material in it, seems to be able to replicate and, and
37:27
basically cycle those nutrients a lot faster.
37:31
So that that what you just said really clicked for me because
37:35
the choice of the potting mix, I've definitely seen one plant
37:40
struggle more in a hot like a bigger carbon percentage in that
37:46
potting mix. Yeah.
37:48
You may not have like thought about that yet, but does that
37:50
kind of make sense to you in that regard as well?
37:53
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
37:55
Yeah, cool. Because yeah, that's definitely
37:57
something to be to be aware of growing in in pots and
37:59
containers. And I always tell people that
38:02
they shouldn't be scared of growing in pots and containers
38:04
because you can keep soil life in there.
38:07
You can build this soil food web within a container.
38:11
I just say that the bigger the container, the bigger the soil
38:13
battery you have and the less room for error.
38:16
There basically is are are you helping people with growing in
38:20
containers and things like this as well?
38:21
No, I. Haven't.
38:24
No, right. So it's mainly in the, mainly in
38:27
the ground, in the big stuff. In the ground, yeah.
38:30
Yeah, that's really cool. And yeah, John, so, so going
38:33
back then fungal and bacteria ratio, I want to kind of just
38:38
like leave to the side again. Now let's talk about that
38:43
because you mentioned about predators and how if there's no
38:47
predators, then you're not going to have them eating the
38:50
bacteria, for example. And then through that process
38:54
of, of eating each other is how that nutrient gets spat out
38:59
where the roots are able to uptake it.
39:02
Can you just talk to me because I, I find it hard to often
39:07
describe this really, really well.
39:09
So are you able to give us a nice simple explanation of that
39:14
nutrient cycle for? Us, Yeah, OK, I'll try and keep
39:17
it simple so it's not. It's not simple, but we can try.
39:20
Yeah. So basically there's 4 main
39:24
organisms that you need in your soil system for it to work
39:27
properly, right? So it's fungus, bacteria,
39:31
protozoa and nematodes. So, and then you can split those
39:38
four up into two groups, right? So we in one group we can have
39:43
the what I call the miners and in another group we can have
39:49
what I call the distributors. So the miners is the bacteria
39:54
and the fungus, they mine nutrients and minerals off the
39:59
sand, the seal, the clay and the organic matter.
40:02
So they eat it, right? So they consume in minerals and
40:06
then the distributors come along.
40:10
Eat the miners consume the the nutrients and the minerals and
40:16
then when they've consumed enough and they poop it out,
40:20
that poop is the plant available form of those nutrients and
40:23
minerals. So that's a real.
40:26
That's a really good, that's a really good actually way of
40:28
explaining it. I like the idea of the miners
40:31
because that's exactly what they do.
40:33
They're basically going in, going to where those nutrients
40:36
are in the original material, they're eating it and then once
40:40
they're eaten, then these other, these nutrients in a plant
40:43
available form a spat out usually close to the root zone.
40:47
That's kind of where we want a lot of this to be happening.
40:49
So the nutrients are right there and available.
40:52
That's also where the the fungi no doubt can come in and
40:55
transport things around for us. And then yeah, taken up and and
41:00
used by the plant and then that's cycled again.
41:04
Also there's, I've heard people kind of get a little bit tied up
41:08
with the beneficials versus like the non beneficial, let's say
41:13
the ones that are detrimental to your soil because you can have
41:16
root, not nematodes and things like this, which are attacking
41:19
your, your roots and all sorts of things.
41:23
How do we know that we are promoting the right things in
41:27
the right balance without kind of doing some serious soil
41:31
testing to find out? Is there a way of doing that?
41:35
Just look at your plants. That's you know, if they're if
41:38
they're, if they're healthy and the the the leaves have got all
41:43
the coloration in them, then something really good is going
41:46
on in the soil, right. So that's that's your main thing
41:50
is just observation of the plants.
41:53
That's that's it really. Yeah.
41:55
So I, I guess that's like the stemming of it all because it's
41:59
the expression of what's above is what's below.
42:01
You're sort of seeing that expression of, of what it is.
42:04
And, and often if you're seeing a, a nutrient deficiency, it's
42:07
probably a little bit too late. You're behind the 8 ball on that
42:10
and something is already already happening.
42:13
So then in terms of how do we know, like if we're looking at
42:17
soil, how do we know that we've got life in it other than, you
42:22
know, obviously the plants, we look at the plants seeing if
42:24
they're doing well, but they can obviously do well in a
42:28
hydroponic setup. They can do well in a chemical
42:31
setup because they've provided everything they need, but it's
42:34
not necessarily optimum. So in our soil, I tend to say,
42:38
you know, take a, a shovel or a, a, you know, a little spade full
42:42
if you can. I'm not big on digging the soil,
42:45
but obviously to, to test it to see if you've got worms in
42:49
there. And I think if if you see worms
42:51
generally, that means that there's a good sign of life in
42:55
there to begin with. Is there any other things that
42:58
we can do to make sure to to figure out whether our soil is
43:02
actually alive? Yeah.
43:04
So worms are very aerobic, right.
43:12
So, so, so if you've got worms in your soil, you know you've
43:15
got an aerobic soil. So that's, that's, that's good.
43:19
It doesn't necessarily tell you that you've got all the
43:21
organisms in there, but it just tells you you've got aerobic
43:23
works. So that's really good.
43:27
And your soil should be able to hold on to moisture really well,
43:34
right. And so, so a good way to
43:37
determine that is like get your watering can and water your
43:41
soil. Does it sit on the top for a
43:44
long time or does it just, you know, just casually just drop
43:49
down into the soil? If it's just casually dropping
43:51
down, that's a good sign, right? And then also grab a handful of
43:57
soil and you can do this with your compost as well.
44:00
And like it should, you should be able to like squeeze it up
44:04
into a ball like that and it will hold the ball shape really
44:07
well and then you can just crumble it really well with your
44:11
fingers, right. So that's a good sign that
44:14
you've got that, that your soil is is healthy.
44:18
Now, another one is not that I like pulling up plants with
44:24
their roots, right? When generally I like to say if
44:27
it's your plants finished, you cut it off at the surface.
44:31
And yeah, but if you do happen to pull a plant up and you're
44:36
holding the root and that root system is covered in soil and
44:41
then you give it a good shake, but the soil stays there, that's
44:45
a sign that that root system is covered in microorganisms.
44:50
Because like I said before, when they're feeding, they produce a,
44:56
a glue to stick themselves onto the plant material and onto the,
45:01
onto the material, the raw material that they're they're
45:04
dissolving. So so a root system that's
45:09
covered in soil that won't shake off easily is a really good sign
45:13
that you've got microorganisms in your system.
45:17
Brilliant. I I didn't think about that.
45:20
Is that I've got a word that's coming into my head for that
45:24
stick. Is it glomalin?
45:25
Is it that? Is that the sticky substance?
45:27
I know that that's I think is released by the like a micro
45:32
rise or fungi and things like this to to help create the
45:34
structure. Maybe I'm missing that one, but
45:36
I might have to look that one up in a second.
45:39
Yeah, I'd have to look it up as well.
45:40
That's okay, yeah, so, so then yeah, cool.
45:43
So if you do the shake test and it's all holding nice and strong
45:46
together, then that's all good. So yeah, there's a couple of
45:49
really good ones there. I've, I've told people that you
45:51
can do the little testing in water where you basically shake
45:54
it up and you can see the separation of the different
45:57
layers so you can tell what the makeup is of your soil.
46:00
Really simple, cost effective pH testing obviously is a really
46:05
simple and easy one to do 5050 with water, shake it up for a
46:09
bit, let it settle for a bit and then test it.
46:12
And usually you can have a good idea of where your pH is.
46:16
And then I like to kind of, I've seen one where they will, it's
46:20
more on broad acre and pasture where they'll like take a, a
46:23
chunk out and kind of lay it out.
46:25
So you can see it sort of cross sectionally.
46:29
And you can see how the, the root systems, if there are any,
46:32
are coming and travelling through the soil.
46:33
And then how your layering of topsoil versus like say clay
46:38
underneath or whatever it is. That 1 can be a really helpful
46:40
one, but it's for the home garden.
46:42
It's probably not as essential soil testing mate.
46:47
Do you do a lot of soil testing like proper sending it off to
46:52
the labs? And how important do you think
46:53
that is for people from broadacre all the way through to
46:57
home gardeners? Is it, is it important?
46:59
Should we not worry about it to start with the?
47:02
Compost, Yeah, I, yeah, start, always start with compost.
47:05
So I just want to touch on pH actually.
47:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. A bit of interesting information
47:12
is that a plant is able to adjust the pH anywhere along its
47:20
root system to to stimulate organisms in a certain area to
47:26
deliver certain nutrients. Wow.
47:29
Yeah. So I've, I've always found that
47:32
really fantastic. Amazing, actually.
47:33
That is incredible. So at different sects.
47:36
So you could have one root that's in APH of six and one
47:39
that's in A5 and it can adjust accordingly.
47:43
Yeah, it can change the pH at the microscopic level where
47:48
those microbes are to stimulate them to to find a mineral.
47:53
Yeah, so. That's that's and with soil,
48:00
plants will grow pretty much in any soil as long as there's
48:04
microorganisms in it. If you take them, if they're not
48:07
in there for the plants, it's going to be hard for them to
48:10
grow in there. So, you know, people get all
48:13
worried about what type of soil I've got, but it's the organisms
48:16
in the soil that are doing the work.
48:18
Because a plant plant can't find its own nutrients.
48:23
It has no ability to do that. There might be one or two plants
48:27
in the whole world that can do that, right?
48:29
But generally plants need microorganisms to to supply the
48:35
nutrients. I can't remember what you said
48:39
before that. I no, that's OK, went off on a
48:41
tangent. Yeah.
48:41
That's all right. I was just talking about, you
48:45
know, because like what I was speaking about with the soil
48:49
life and everything and trying to figure out like, you know,
48:52
whether we've got good structure and stuff.
48:54
Yeah. Is, is testing something that
48:56
you send off for? Are you quite happy to just do
49:00
an observational kind of test, which is what I generally tend
49:04
to do unless I need to. So if I'm going to start working
49:10
on on someone's land or a farm, I would ask them have they got a
49:15
test? First of all, because I want to
49:17
see. The main thing I want to see is
49:19
that calcium to magnesium ratio. That's the main thing I want to
49:22
see. But then I do my own testing.
49:24
So I take soil samples and I put them under a microscope and then
49:28
I count the amount of organisms there are per cubic centimeter
49:33
of soil. Brilliant.
49:36
That's something that I do regularly.
49:39
For people, yeah. Yeah.
49:41
And then especially if I'm going to, if I'm going to actually be
49:44
working there, we want to know what it was when we started to
49:49
what it will be like in 12 months time, so.
49:54
That you've got a bit of comparison, yeah.
49:56
Yeah. And also I need to know is there
49:59
enough magnesium in that system in order for it's not magnesium,
50:05
so there are enough calcium in that system in order for fungi
50:10
to be to be able to survive? Yeah, definitely.
50:14
And just, you know, for people that might not have heard of
50:18
calcium, magnesium ratio, I presume if they're listening to
50:21
this episode, they might have a little idea.
50:22
But that ratio dictates our soil's ability to breathe,
50:27
right? Whether it's a tight closed soil
50:29
or a nicely open flocculated soil.
50:33
It's it's probably one of the ones alongside the fungal to
50:38
bacteria ratio that we need to be worried about because oxygen
50:43
is so important in the system. So that's really interesting.
50:47
So then you get a bit of a starting point and then you can
50:49
kind of see like down the line and you've got a little bit of
50:53
of movement. I can see why that works in a
50:55
client situation because if you're being employed to do
50:58
something or if you're, you know, you're coming in to
51:01
transform something, you want to have some tangible apart from
51:05
being able to see it visually in the garden, you want to have
51:08
some tangible numbers often to be able to show the client.
51:11
And something like this in a home garden situation, I tend
51:17
to, yes, suggest soil testing because it's really interesting
51:20
and it's good to know where your soil's at.
51:23
But also I would only, I would also only use it if there's a
51:29
serious problem in a home garden situation.
51:31
Like if there's something where you just can't work out what's
51:35
going wrong and why things aren't growing, then a soil test
51:37
is a really easy way to see what's actually happening in the
51:41
soil level. But one thing coming back to
51:45
what you said about the life in the soil, how we need that life
51:48
in the soil. You could test the soil and it
51:51
could be hugely rich in all of these minerals.
51:55
But if you don't have the life that's then consuming those and
51:58
making them plant available, your plants aren't going to be
52:00
able to access them. So then often a tissue test
52:05
using leaf testing on on these plants can tell you whether any
52:09
of that is actually up taken into the plant itself.
52:14
Thoughts on that? You're exactly right.
52:17
You know, without the organisms that nothing's very little is
52:22
going to be delivered. There's always going to be
52:24
bacteria always, always, always, right.
52:28
So, and in a, in a soil that just is bacteria dominated the,
52:35
the, the nutrient cycle in the ability for the soil to deliver
52:38
the nutrients to the plant, it's going to be very limited and
52:41
very slow. So it comes back to compost.
52:45
You know, it's like every, everything comes back to compost
52:48
for me. Yeah.
52:50
But you're absolutely right. Without the organisms in the
52:52
soil, it's you're pushing rocks uphill.
52:58
If that's the same. Yeah.
53:00
That's exactly it. There we have it, ladies and
53:18
gentlemen, thank you again to John.
53:21
As a living soil guy, I think any kind of conversation about
53:27
improving the biology and understanding what's going on
53:30
underneath our feet is just so vital and so crucial.
53:34
So thank you so much again to John.
53:35
Please go and check out his links.
53:37
You know, as always, we want to support these guests.
53:39
You can find John's links in the description and the show notes
53:43
below. Go and let him know that you
53:44
enjoyed this episode. That would be amazing.
53:47
And if you enjoyed this episode, of course, I'm always open for a
53:52
lovely review. I've received some beautiful
53:54
words from some of you listeners and just hearing how it has
53:58
impacted you or touched you in some way or giving you some
54:01
knowledge or motivation to go out there in the garden and do
54:04
something, it's just been really rewarding for me.
54:06
So if you are finding value from this podcast, let me know.
54:10
Drop a comment, drop a review and I'll be able to see that.
54:14
And thank you, it'll be wonderful to see.
54:16
So that's it, let's see you on the next episode.
54:19
I hope you have a wonderful week and I look forward to seeing
54:21
you. Then take care and bye for now.