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Inside a Decade of Collaboration Between Banner Health and University of Arizona · Becker’s Healthcare Podcast

0:00
This is Laura Dierdo with the Becker's Healthcare
0:02
podcast. I'm thrilled today to have doctor Benjamin
0:05
Schwartz, president of academic delivery at Banner Health,
0:08
and doctor Patricia Prelock,
0:10
provost and chief academic officer at the University
0:13
of Arizona on the podcast with me today.
0:16
Ben, Patty, thank you so much for joining
0:18
us.
0:19
Delighted to be here. Thank you. Yes. Thanks
0:21
for having us.
0:23
Fantastic. Well, I'm excited to have you both
0:25
here. I know ten years ago, Banner Health
0:27
and the University of Arizona really came together
0:30
with a vision of transforming health care in
0:31
Arizona and have done just that over the
0:34
last decade. And so I know there's so
0:36
many things, that you've been able to accomplish.
0:39
Currently,
0:40
more than 1,300 residents and fellows train across
0:43
80 programs, that you've set up and really
0:46
have had a a great, investments into the,
0:49
health care
0:50
ecosystem there in Arizona. And so I'm excited
0:53
to learn more about that and really dive
0:55
in. First and foremost,
0:57
with a ten year partnership,
0:59
at Banner Health and University of Arizona academic
1:02
medicine merger, can you tell us what prompted
1:04
the two organizations to enter this collaboration initially?
1:09
Sure.
1:10
This is Patty.
1:11
Ben and I talked a little bit about
1:13
this because we're kind of newbies
1:15
to this,
1:16
framework, and
1:18
I think Ben came about fourteen months ago.
1:20
I did about nine months ago. But what
1:22
we've learned and what we've experienced
1:25
is that both the University of Arizona and
1:27
Banner Health
1:29
were really very strong independent organizations
1:32
that were
1:34
really important to the,
1:36
Arizona community,
1:38
but realizing
1:40
that
1:41
as a leading,
1:43
AAU university
1:45
that really focuses on research and a land
1:47
grant,
1:48
mission,
1:49
that we could do better
1:51
if we worked together and be more powerful
1:55
as an integrated
1:57
organization.
1:58
And
1:59
then looking at the amazing Banner Health,
2:03
institution
2:04
where they're a nationally recognized nonprofit
2:07
integrative health system,
2:09
How can we use our workforce development and
2:12
our research
2:13
to support the incredible work they do to
2:16
provide the best possible valued care
2:19
for,
2:20
improving the health of Arizona and the Southwest?
2:23
And so I think
2:24
those two institutions
2:26
became the fabric
2:29
of Arizona's
2:30
mission for health and taking care of their
2:33
population,
2:34
and it makes
2:35
the most sense that we do it together
2:37
and not try and do it
2:40
separately. And, as I've come on and I've
2:42
been with other health systems, it's been a
2:44
pleasure learning from and working with Ben and
2:48
his colleagues there and realizing that we have
2:50
a lot of shared vision.
2:52
And I know Ben can talk more about
2:54
the scale and reach that we have that
2:56
you mentioned a little bit in the the
2:59
beginning, and I think just the I can
3:01
speak to the research group.
3:03
The recruitment of physician scientists, which
3:06
Banner is so supportive of, has really strengthened
3:09
our ability to take research from the bench
3:12
to the bedside and really make a difference
3:14
and translate that for best clinical practice.
3:19
And that's really been achieved through a shared
3:21
governance and,
3:23
model that we have created on how to
3:25
work together.
3:27
But I'm sure Ben can talk a lot
3:29
about the scale and reach that Banner has
3:32
and how we've been able to do that
3:34
together.
3:36
Yeah. Thanks, Patty. I I would just echo
3:38
every time you and I meet, and for
3:40
the audience, we meet at least weekly.
3:43
I always learn, so much from you, and
3:46
it's really impressive the accomplishment of our, affiliation
3:49
ten years ago. You take
3:51
such a premier
3:53
academic institution of the University of Arizona and
3:57
Arizona's largest health system.
4:00
Together, I think we employ close to a
4:02
100,000,
4:03
team members. And if you just look at
4:06
the opportunity our partnership created with regards to
4:08
the scale of the programs that we have,
4:10
I think together
4:12
there's over a thousand medical students
4:14
learning at any given time. There's over
4:17
1,100,
4:19
depending upon you how you count, 1,100 to
4:22
1,300
4:22
residents and fellows
4:24
in all of the training programs.
4:26
It's a it's a really, really wonderful
4:29
place to train, and it's certainly elevated and
4:32
buoyed the care that's being provided because we
4:35
have academic providers all across the state.
4:38
And so when Arizonans,
4:40
seek health care,
4:42
they know when they see our brand,
4:44
they're coming to a place that's evidence based,
4:46
that's innovative, state of the art, and
4:49
and and know that we're offering them the
4:51
best chance of the outcome that they're looking
4:53
for. You know, we when we put the
4:55
block a of the university next to the
4:57
banner logo,
4:59
it's just an incredible
5:01
incredibly powerful and resonating
5:04
image to the communities that we serve that
5:08
we're elevating
5:09
the sophistication of the care that is accessible,
5:12
not just in Arizona's big cities, but also
5:15
in rural,
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communities.
5:18
I'd like to add, Laura, if I could.
5:20
I think what is so powerful about this
5:22
relationship is not only
5:24
Banner Health really
5:26
supporting
5:27
our medical students and our residents, but a
5:29
whole plethora of health professions, physician assistants, physical
5:33
therapists,
5:34
nurses, nurse practitioners,
5:36
nurse midwifery, and really committed to that, which
5:40
is so powerful. And then giving our students
5:43
access to research in areas like Alzheimer's and
5:46
Parkinson's
5:48
and artificial heart transplants, which is happening
5:52
at Banner University Medicine.
5:54
That's a that's a gem for our students
5:57
at all levels to know that they're coming
5:59
to a place where there's two high powered
6:01
institutions
6:02
who have decided
6:04
to integrate and work together to create the
6:07
best possible medical care founded in evidence, which
6:11
is pretty wonderful.
6:13
That's amazing to hear. And, you know, truly
6:15
a unique gem as you mentioned, in terms
6:17
of the organization and then the partnerships,
6:19
you know,
6:21
really makes a big difference. I can imagine
6:22
learning in that type of environment gives you
6:24
so many different experiences
6:26
and really sees how the health care system
6:28
can be beneficial
6:30
to the communities and in these types of
6:31
collaborations,
6:33
drive value moving forward.
6:35
Now what are some of the biggest challenges
6:37
that you have overcome,
6:40
that really offer useful lessons to pursue in
6:43
such mergers like this? I think, in particular,
6:45
right now, health care is such a team
6:47
sport. And so looking at how you've been
6:48
able to be successful and work together well,
6:51
is is truly a testament to both the
6:54
organizations and and you individually as well as,
6:56
overall, just what's possible when you do develop
6:59
those types of relationships.
7:01
Yeah. So,
7:03
I think what Ben and I've learned, the
7:05
best thing for us to do is talk
7:07
every week. And as things come up, we
7:10
can address it and get the information that
7:13
we need. You know, when you're integrating an
7:15
academic enterprise
7:17
with a clinical enterprise,
7:19
it's very complex.
7:22
And they don't
7:24
automatically
7:25
align because we we have a shared vision
7:28
and we actually went through an exercise
7:30
looking at our vision mission and value statements
7:33
and there was so much in common.
7:35
But we also know that, you know, Banner
7:38
has a responsibility
7:39
to patients and high productivity,
7:42
and we have a responsibility
7:44
to research and educating
7:46
students,
7:47
and those are not easy things to,
7:50
connect. So I think
7:52
it really requires us to have joint leadership
7:55
of, like, the commitment that Ben and I
7:57
have made,
7:58
making sure we're accountable. And sometimes we we
8:02
fail on that end on both ends and
8:04
Ben and I talk about it and identify,
8:07
okay, what could have we done differently in
8:09
this situation? So we're constantly in an assessment
8:12
mode of that.
8:14
And then making sure that culturally,
8:17
our teams can integrate because,
8:19
an institution of higher education is very different
8:22
than a hospital system.
8:24
And so recognizing
8:26
that and knowing that we're making lots of
8:28
changes with lots of,
8:30
leadership changes that we have to coordinate,
8:34
at scale. And we've had wonderful support from
8:36
our Arizona board of regents
8:38
to really help us
8:40
maintain this infrastructure. They're very committed to the
8:43
relationship between,
8:45
Banner and the u of a knowing that
8:47
it's always gonna have its hurdles.
8:49
But I'm sure Ben has many more things
8:52
that he could share as well.
8:54
Well, I I think that was really terrific.
8:57
I
8:58
a huge part of
9:00
our culture is centered around trust.
9:03
And
9:04
someone once said to me in a meeting,
9:06
I thought it was really clever that trust
9:08
is earned a drop at a time and
9:09
lost in buckets. And I think that's really
9:11
true. I think it's that
9:14
regular,
9:14
transparent
9:15
communication
9:16
between
9:18
our organizations
9:20
starting with the president of the university and
9:22
our CEO, Amy Perry,
9:23
and president Garimella,
9:25
Patty and I, the deans and our hospital
9:28
CEOs and medical group leaders.
9:30
Transparency is really important,
9:33
and and it's something you have to find
9:35
alignment on every day. I think
9:38
what has really been wonderful for me in
9:40
this relationship when it comes to trust and
9:43
transparency
9:43
is that
9:45
these are two organizations
9:47
that historically have been the very best at
9:49
what they do.
9:50
And it comes with a certain amount of
9:52
pride, and it comes with a certain reluctance
9:55
to admit when
9:56
some of the things that you do aren't
9:58
perfect.
9:59
And what Patty has been such a wonderful
10:02
partner with is we call those things out
10:05
about each other,
10:06
and we
10:08
help to find ways to
10:10
I I give you a perfect example. One
10:12
part of the infrastructure of the university may
10:14
be particularly strong and maybe not a banner
10:17
and vice versa. And so when we look
10:18
at our processes of collaboration,
10:21
we leverage the best practices of each of
10:23
the organizations where one plus one is
10:26
three or a 120.
10:29
And so
10:30
for us, that's meant,
10:33
strategically,
10:35
that we can be much more financially sustainable
10:38
because we're not
10:41
we don't have redundant
10:43
things happening in both organizations whenever we can
10:45
avoid it.
10:46
And
10:47
to Patty's earlier point,
10:49
when even though both organizations
10:52
have slightly different strategies, I would say the
10:54
overwhelming majority of those strategies are amazingly aligned.
10:59
Really great example,
11:01
the University of Arizona's one of their main
11:03
focuses is on artificial intelligence and health care.
11:06
And, obviously, that's an incredibly
11:09
important strategic part
11:10
of our journey at Banner. And so there's
11:13
amazing symbiosis
11:14
there when we're together.
11:16
And, you know, we set a very, very
11:18
high bar.
11:19
We wanna be the not just the best
11:21
in Arizona. Although, I think if you look
11:24
at certain programs, we've done the first in
11:26
Arizona and many things. Fetal surgery is an
11:29
example.
11:30
But we wanna be the very, very best
11:32
in the country, if not in the world,
11:34
and and we have some programs that really
11:37
give us,
11:38
the opportunity to boast that. And we know
11:41
that those programs don't happen without both organizations'
11:46
drive to be nationally competitive and to be
11:48
the very best.
11:50
That's amazing to hear. And you'll certainly that
11:52
candid and transparent communication,
11:55
is so helpful in building what you have
11:58
been able to build and accomplish that world
12:00
class care. I think,
12:02
it is so critical to have that type
12:04
of relationship, but then at the same time,
12:06
be able to look together in the future
12:07
and see your paths continuing to,
12:10
align together, which is really neat. And I
12:13
think looking at you mentioned AI too in
12:15
health care,
12:16
that's a huge, huge topic and something that
12:19
bringing both institutions together at it. It seems
12:21
like it would just accelerate a lot of
12:22
what you're trying to do.
12:24
Absolutely.
12:25
Now
12:26
what have been some of the biggest benefits
12:28
of this collaboration? What are your, you know,
12:30
where do you see some of the the
12:32
opportunities and benefits coming through? What do you
12:34
think, Patty?
12:35
Yeah.
12:36
Well, there's so many impacts. I love that
12:39
Ben said, well, we wanna be nationally competitive,
12:41
not just the best in Arizona, but the
12:43
best in the nation. And I think we
12:45
are in a lot of areas.
12:47
But I think the, big impact areas from
12:50
an academic
12:51
and, University of Arizona is that we're creating
12:56
ready
12:57
to care
12:59
physicians and health professionals
13:01
across physician assistants, physical therapists, nurses, midwives,
13:06
etcetera, which is so critical to meet the
13:09
care needs
13:10
of both urban areas, but also our rural
13:13
community across the state,
13:16
and nationally. So I think the impact has
13:19
been significant
13:20
in terms of the number of students who
13:22
come here who then get jobs and stay
13:24
in Arizona
13:25
and,
13:26
have an incredible
13:28
learning experience and clinical experience because of our
13:32
relationship with,
13:34
Banner
13:36
Health. They provide
13:38
so many of the
13:40
academic,
13:41
clinical internship programs, the residency
13:44
programs.
13:45
So our graduates are well trained and people
13:49
feel like, wow, these students are ready and
13:52
able to care for us then. And, really,
13:55
we're improving the retention
13:57
of individuals in the state that we're training
14:00
and investing in. And quite frankly, as someone
14:03
who benefits from the care in banner, I
14:06
wanna make sure that,
14:08
the students that we train and and the
14:11
future,
14:12
health care providers are gonna do a good
14:13
job taking care of me. So I so
14:16
appreciate this,
14:18
ecosystem
14:19
that we've created for workforce. But also at
14:21
the same time,
14:23
it is this,
14:25
discovery
14:27
ecosystem that we've also created that really,
14:31
embeds
14:32
evidence
14:33
and academic rigor into
14:36
care delivery for our patients. And it really
14:39
helps
14:40
when we have an academic medical center and
14:43
a
14:44
a well,
14:46
established health center
14:48
like Banner
14:50
to recruit individuals
14:51
who feel that
14:53
this is a place that they can
14:55
really
14:57
engage with the patients they want, have trainees,
15:01
and do things that maybe other health systems
15:04
could not do. And I know Ben probably
15:07
has several examples
15:09
of some of the significant things that have
15:11
happened at Banner University Medical Center. So I
15:15
won't take all of his thunder and let
15:16
him share some things.
15:18
Well, that was great, Patty. I you know,
15:21
academic medicine is so special and so vitally
15:24
important,
15:25
not just to Arizonans or to Americans, but
15:27
to the world. The challenges
15:30
of, some of the hardest medical conditions and
15:33
the innovations that have
15:35
been used in the past and that we're
15:37
going to use in the future
15:39
largely are born in an academic medical environment.
15:42
And, you know,
15:43
our relationship with the university
15:46
has
15:47
really brought some of the world's best minds
15:49
in medicine and some of the best clinicians
15:52
because those
15:54
providers,
15:56
are seeking an environment where they can
15:59
not just be clinically excellent, but can also
16:01
do research and be educators.
16:05
And I wanna just share with you a
16:06
few examples of how the clinical care,
16:10
at University of Medicine is is amazing as
16:13
a result of our collaboration. But I also
16:14
wanna be careful to mention that I only
16:16
have enough time to mention a few, and
16:18
there's probably a few 100 of them. And
16:20
so
16:21
to those of you that I don't mention,
16:23
please know how special you are. I but
16:26
if if I think about,
16:28
I'm a gynecological cancer doctor, and I'm particularly
16:31
proud of the cancer care that's provided
16:34
both at our, Banner University of Arizona Cancer
16:37
Center and at the, the Banner MD Anderson
16:39
Cancer Centers.
16:41
Think when patients are faced with really
16:44
upsetting
16:45
diagnoses,
16:46
I think they take great comfort
16:48
in coming to one of our facilities. And
16:50
we've been recognized nationally for the care that
16:53
we provide in diseases like leukemia,
16:56
lymphoma,
16:57
myeloma.
16:58
You can imagine in a sunny place like
17:00
Arizona,
17:01
we have a lot of skin cancer, and
17:03
the skin cancer care that we provide here
17:05
is second to none.
17:06
So we've got some of the world's best
17:08
surgeons, particularly
17:10
our colon cancer surgeons and our prostate cancer
17:13
surgeons and the teams
17:14
that come with them that wanna work in
17:17
a place where they know they're providing the
17:18
highest level of care. It's really terrific.
17:21
And we've done some amazing
17:23
innovative
17:24
procedures in our facilities,
17:26
including artificial heart transplants,
17:30
which are rarely found in hospitals in America,
17:32
but we are not only a place where
17:35
the quality is excellent, but one of the
17:36
highest volume places in the country.
17:40
If you think
17:41
about the number of heart transplants we've done,
17:43
I think our facility in 2024
17:45
did the most heart transplants in Arizona,
17:48
and our survival rates are just,
17:51
well above the national and state averages.
17:54
We're particularly proud in our in our, hospital
17:57
at the Banner University Medical Center in Tucson,
18:00
a more fetal surgery program.
18:02
These are very hard to find.
18:04
Our catchment area is the entire Southwest, if
18:07
not further than that.
18:09
And the teams,
18:11
have a,
18:13
spectacular
18:14
expertise
18:15
in a field of medicine that is particularly
18:17
complicated with,
18:19
taking care of some of the most complicated
18:20
situations. And then,
18:22
in Phoenix, we have,
18:24
arguably the best world class sports medicine institute
18:28
in Scottsdale,
18:30
where
18:31
some of the most famous
18:32
athletes in the world
18:35
come to, not only recover from when they
18:38
when they have afflictions, but also to improve
18:40
their performance.
18:42
It's really,
18:43
every time we bring someone there, they're blown
18:46
away with how sophisticated that,
18:48
that facility is, And the team of experts
18:51
that are there are arguably second to none.
18:53
And, again, those people come to work in
18:56
our facilities
18:57
in part because they're so terrific,
19:00
but mostly because of the relationship that Banner
19:02
has with the university
19:04
and the opportunities
19:05
that being a part of an academic medical
19:07
center offered them beyond patient care.
19:11
And so those programs would not happen without
19:13
this affiliation.
19:15
Yeah. And I would second that. And in
19:18
fact, our athletics program
19:20
banner,
19:22
university manages
19:24
our sports here at,
19:26
U of A, and it's such a wonderful
19:29
opportunity to demonstrate
19:31
true integration.
19:33
Sports is big here, and our our athletes
19:35
are also wonderful student scholars. And then to
19:39
have this cutting edge sports medicine and access
19:42
with banner has been a huge
19:45
lift.
19:46
And another
19:47
good reason for students to come to U
19:49
of A.
19:50
It's a draw.
19:53
Absolutely. I I can imagine. It it really
19:55
tips the skills in many respects, towards their
19:58
favors. So, that's amazing to hear. Before we
20:01
wrap up, I'm curious. What's your top piece
20:03
of advice for other health systems looking into
20:05
similar partnerships?
20:07
I think the very first thing and we
20:09
actually we did an exercise for this is
20:11
making sure you enter the relationship with a
20:14
shared purpose
20:16
and not
20:17
a short term focus, but we're in it
20:20
for the long game.
20:22
And it does require
20:24
work,
20:25
to maintain and,
20:27
build
20:28
collaboration. And I think one of the best
20:31
things we've done is we have strategy meetings
20:34
with Banner
20:36
and U of A with our leaders, our
20:38
president, Guillermo and
20:40
the CEO of Banner, Amy Perry, and our
20:43
research leads, and Ben and myself. And those
20:46
have been quite powerful
20:48
in making sure that we maintain our alignment
20:51
and that we have a a plan for
20:54
the next ten years so that we can,
20:57
catapult
20:58
the success we've already had.
21:00
I'm sure Ben has some additional
21:02
ideas and thoughts about what's so important.
21:06
Yeah. I mean,
21:07
I I appreciate those comments very much, Patty.
21:10
What I would add is,
21:12
you know, these are strategic
21:15
long range
21:17
initiatives.
21:18
I think both organizations,
21:21
particularly in our meetings, that you just described,
21:24
we take great pride that we have found
21:26
a way to take these very large organizations
21:29
and move the needles quickly, you know, despite
21:32
that. But there's a there is a risk,
21:34
I think, that it's important that everybody understand
21:37
the why of this relationship.
21:40
And for those that are
21:43
considering embarking on a similar relationship,
21:46
I'm proud that we lean into using the
21:48
word we
21:50
much more than you and me.
21:53
And,
21:54
when you bring two large,
21:56
organizations together, there's a bit of a tendency
21:58
for people to do that.
22:00
And I would just say that,
22:02
our alignment at the highest levels of the
22:04
organizations
22:05
casts a very big shadow.
22:08
And when things are escalated to us, the
22:10
way we resolve
22:12
the challenges
22:13
in a collaborative way,
22:15
it sends a very clear message to the
22:17
team. Now
22:19
I'm not naive,
22:21
so to say that money doesn't matter,
22:24
And so it's really important in these relationships
22:27
for the in for the incentives to be
22:29
aligned financially.
22:32
We have a wonderful
22:33
collaboration in that context, so much so that
22:36
even our foundations now are working together to
22:39
align strategically on philanthropy, which I think
22:42
is is really, really powerful because
22:45
it's not just building trust within the organizations
22:48
together, but it's also how we project
22:51
that collaboration to the communities that we serve,
22:53
including those that are philanthropic for us.
22:56
And so that's a really, really important
22:59
part of the these relationships. And then I
23:00
would just say it's that sort of continuous
23:03
commitment to always we can always be better.
23:06
We're always gonna push ourselves to be better.
23:08
We're not gonna accept the status quo.
23:11
The world, in case you didn't notice, is
23:13
changing rapidly around us.
23:15
And so as that happens, we have to
23:17
continually be adjusting and shifting
23:20
and not get trapped in, well, that's how
23:22
we did it ten years ago, so that's
23:24
how we're gonna do it now. And I
23:25
think I give,
23:27
Patty tremendous credit for this,
23:30
because
23:31
University of Arizona is more in through my
23:34
lens, on the leading edge than always taking
23:37
the conservative approach,
23:39
and Banner is very aligned with that. And
23:41
I think finding those cultural matches between two
23:44
organizations is critically important. I think that
23:48
much credit,
23:49
but
23:50
it's a we.
23:52
But you're right. It's investing in culture and
23:54
trust and knowing that we're gonna hit some
23:57
challenges, but we're in it for the long
23:59
game.
24:00
Yep.
24:01
I love it. Patty, Ben, thank you so
24:03
much for your time today. This has been
24:04
a fabulous conversation. I've really learned a lot,
24:07
and it's cool to hear about how you're
24:08
able to work together so well. And then
24:11
especially during these challenging times, when there's so
24:13
many changes and uncertainties and and quick pivots
24:16
that need to be made, being able to
24:18
rely on each other and and really build
24:20
upon both of your strengths and and alignment
24:23
together, is critical. So I appreciate your time
24:25
today, and I look forward to continuing the
24:28
conversation in the future.
24:29
Thanks so much, Laura. Yeah, Laura. Thank you
24:31
so much for having us. I appreciate it.