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Killer Thriller: Pregnant, Bound and Shot: The Incredible Escape of Marcela Borges · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Elisa Donovan. Hey, everybody.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here, and this is Killer Thriller. Imagine answering
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: your door on an ordinary Sunday morning and suddenly finding
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: your entire family at gunpoint. In November of 2009, pregnant
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: mother Marcela Borges, her husband Rubens, and their five-year-old son
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Ryan were taken hostage in after armed intruders stormed their
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Winter Garden, Florida home. For three terrifying days, the family
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: was bound, beaten, and threatened, as their captors demanded $ 200, 000
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: they simply didn't have. This remarkable story is told in
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: the movie Terror Comes Knocking, the Marcela Borges story. Today,
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: I'm joined by Ivan Lopez, who plays Oscar Hernandez, one
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: of the men accused of taking part in the kidnapping
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: and the man police accused of shooting Marcela as she
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: tried to escape.
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: Hi, Ivan.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Killer Thriller. Thank you so much for talking
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: with me today.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: Of course, yeah. Thanks for having me.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: So this movie and this story is so deeply upsetting,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: like most things that we talk about on this podcast.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: But how much did you actually know about Marcela Borges
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: before you read the script?
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so I got the script and I knew it
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: was about a well-known case. And obviously with any audition,
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: you want to see who's involved, what it's based on.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: So I did a lot of that. I didn't really
• 1:47
  Speaker 4: dive into the story right away. I kind of just
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: saw that it was based on true story, who the
• 1:51
  Speaker 4: characters were. But we were, I think for the most part,
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: the criminals. So Miguel, Victor, and Oscar, they were all
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: kind of cast a little late. So we were cast
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: and I think the next week we.
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: Were going to start.
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: So we had some conversations with the director. But as
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: far as the actual story and you know, how harrowing
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: the whole experience was for the family, didn't really dive
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: into that until I got the part. And then that's
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: when I, people had told me there was a documentary
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: and I kind of had to make the decision whether
• 2:24
  Speaker 4: I was going to watch it or not, just to
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: know if I wanted, you know, how much separation I
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: wanted from the actual case to, actual characters and and yeah.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: Right i know that's always an interesting thing that everyone
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: you know works differently where some people really want to
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: know everything and some want to kind of like create
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: your own character sort of a little bit separate from
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: you know perhaps the real person. So I personally was
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: very surprised that I had never heard of this case.
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: And then I went, I can't believe I've never heard
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: of this.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: This was, it's absurd.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: And the family seems to really have been able to
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: keep themselves largely out of the public eye, which is
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: pretty unusual for something like this, you know, post this happening.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Did they Do you know, were they a part of
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: the production at all? Did you ever meet any of them?
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: I don't think they were. I did see some actual mugshots,
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: I believe, of our characters. But yeah, as far as
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: who was involved, I'm not aware that anybody in the
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: actual case was involved. But I do know that now,
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: since the film's release, And people, you know, getting a
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: little more acquainted with her story. There's more pieces on it.
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: There's more information out there. And, you know, there should
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: be just because of how resilient she was in that
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: whole experience.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: Your character, Oscar Hernandez, was only 19 when this happened.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: And, I mean, it's so disturbing that.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: Did you learn anything about how a 19-year-old winds up
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: in this... something this elaborate and violent?
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like, you know, obviously, given the limited information,
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: I don't think it's too far fetched to imagine somebody
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: in his position to kind of go through the, you know,
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: the backtracks of anyone who's kind of exposed to, you know,
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: I mean, again, being limited to what I had, it's, The.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: Narrative for.
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: Immigrants from Honduras to come to the United States, I
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: think it's a familiar path to see somebody go down
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: to the criminal world. So I think I was trying to,
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: like anything as an actor, is empathize with the character
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: I'm playing. you know, there's no article that'll come out
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: that will try to do that because, you know, it
• 5:09
  Speaker 4: is a very real case with real victims and, you know,
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: they should be the priority. But for myself, I did
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: need to kind of create some sort of why or understanding,
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: you know, what would push somebody to do something like this.
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: And that came with, you know, just, you know, the
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: desperation of being in a poverty situation and not having
• 5:30
  Speaker 4: a way out and, you know, kind of running around with,
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: a group of people that, you know, might not have
• 5:36
  Speaker 4: the best influence on you and where that can lead
• 5:39
  Speaker 4: and how that can affect, you know, looking for actual
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: work and, um, you know, getting like a rap sheet and,
• 5:46
  Speaker 4: you know, all these things that sort of just point
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: you to the most desperate, um, case, which is, you know,
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: to just, you know, extort somebody for, for, for money
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: in hopes that you can take that money and start
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: a better life or go somewhere. So, um, That was
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: definitely the basis I had for Oscar, especially being so young.
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: I did hear that he was, I mean, to be
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: involved in such a violent crime. There's some things that
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: happen in real life that weren't in the film because
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: of how dark they were. So that does take a
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: very specific type of mindset or person. So, you know,
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: that comes with a whole other psychology of who he was. Right.
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: I do think the, the film does a great job
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: and you do a great job of, it's almost like a, a,
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: a twist because I read things about the case after
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: I watched the movie and it, they, they really use,
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: they set it up such that it seems like you
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: have a little bit of compassion for her, right? Like you, every, you,
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: you're all masked all the time and there's certainly a
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: threat and it's violent so that for anybody that isn't
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: familiar with It's.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: One afternoon in life. It was in the morning.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: But these perpetrators knock on the front door of this
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: family's home and hold them up at gunpoint.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: It's a couple. They have a five-year-old son who is autistic.
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: In the movie, I don't think he doesn't have any disability, right?
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't think they do. Yeah, they don't really.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: So they hold them up at gunpoint.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: The mother and the wife is also pregnant. And they
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: essentially hold them hostage for three days and threaten them
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: quite violently and extort from them, give them $ 30, 000 that's
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: in their home in a safe, and then take the
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: mom to get another almost $ 30, 000 from the bank. And
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: held up at gunpoint the entire time.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Time.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: But your character, it feels like at a certain point
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: in the beginning, he's almost kinder to her, or you
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: feel like maybe he's going to, I don't know, just
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: sort of have some compassion for her. And then in
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: the end, he's the one that winds up shooting her.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: So it's so arresting in that way.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: How can you talk a little bit about that, shooting
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: that and that kind of process?
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, you know, being in that character's mindset,
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: you know, they went in with a plan that just
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: sort of started to unravel. You know, that started with this,
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: you know, inside knowledge that, you know, Rubens owned this
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: company and, you know, they were targeted because they suspected
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: that they had more money than they actually did. So,
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: you know, once Bianca, you know, all the violence was happening,
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: they still weren't giving it up. It was pretty clear
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: that there was some sort of discrepancy with what was
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: on paper and what they actually had access to. So
• 8:56
  Speaker 4: when that started to unravel, I think Oscar really, he
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: has the capacity to do what he needs to in
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: order to, you know, ensure that he gets what he needs,
• 9:06
  Speaker 4: gets what he wants. And also not only having a
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: softness for Marcella in a sense, but also for Bianca,
• 9:14
  Speaker 4: you know, like what's that relationship, but why is, you know, why,
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: Was he taking orders from her so specifically?
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: So Bianca dos Santos is considered the ringleader of the entire.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Crime. And she supposedly had access.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: To information, as you said, about the family's finances through
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: her mother. But she is really the one that, to
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: your point, is the one that was giving all the orders.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: And to this day, she's the one that hasn't been captured.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah. still a large town which is.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Wild but right it brings up the interesting point of
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: this young boy taking these orders from her you know
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: there's a sort of like you could imagine he doesn't
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: have maybe any mother figure in his life or doesn't
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: have those sorts of support systems.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: And then that's how you get involved in this sort
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: of stuff.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: And there was actually for one of the audition pieces,
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: there was a scene that sort of explored the dynamic
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: between the group. where there's arguments about what.
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: They should do.
• 10:22
  Speaker 4: We never made the final cut or we never even
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: shot it, which is understandable. When you're telling a story
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: like this, the emphasis has to be on the protagonist
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: or the victim.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: You really want to tell that story.
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: Whereas I think for the most part, sometimes when it
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: comes to feature films being very limited, you don't really
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: have too much time to explore.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: The bad guy.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: It's easier to kind of, just give them that role
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: and not, you know, somebody who does bad is considered bad. So,
• 10:53
  Speaker 4: you know, there's a lot more nuance in there for sure.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: We just didn't have time to elaborate that, but, but yeah,
• 10:58
  Speaker 4: I think, you know, as the situation began unraveling, Oscar
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: was more willing to, to, to, to save himself and
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: to pull the trigger at the end there, even if
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: maybe there wasn't, that wasn't the plan or anything.
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: It was just the cops are, she's out of the house.
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: Things are going on. I need to make sure this
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: doesn't fall back on me.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: So during their real crime, Ruben, who is Ruben's, who's
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Marcello's husband, testified that the kidnappers put a gun in
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: his mouth. And at another point, He said they played
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Russian roulette with him and his five-year-old son, Ryan, which
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: was partly portrayed in the film, but is also just
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: fiercely disturbing. When you learned those details, did that change
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: your understanding of the people involved and how much darker
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: it really was?
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it definitely did.
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: I mean, to play Russian roulette with a child is,
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: you know, it can't get much darker than that. Um,
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: but I think, you know, having to make a character
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: choice of, you know, where did that come from?
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: Is this person just.
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: Inherently evil or is it, you know, how desperate am
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: I trying to get this money out of this family?
• 12:29
  Speaker 4: What am I willing to, um, you know, gamble with the,
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: the life of their child. And even to the point
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: where if that's.
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: Not enough, they're still only saying they have this much
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: money then. Okay. That must be true. Um, but, but yeah,
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: I mean, that is. horrendous, you know, act. And it's
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: unforgivable in a sense, right?
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: Like, you know, sure, there's whatever, if you want to
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: play a game of odds with Russian roulette, there's still
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: the chance that that can go off and harm, if
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: not kill the child. So, yeah, it's definitely a difficult
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: thing to try to comprehend and empathize with. But again,
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: like the decision is just, I believe that my understanding
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: for that was okay well we just need to terrify
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: the as much as we can and this is a
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: yeah this is.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: A device for that because marcella later told the police
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: that she could hear her husband crying and she could
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: hear the gun the click click click like that kind
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: of you know that that sort of terror it's like
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: true terrorism to to frighten people like that and she
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: has um in the um She gave an impact statement
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: when Sanchez and Santiz, who were the other two, your counterparts,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: during the trial, in the impact statement, she said that
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: her son still couldn't go outside, that he primarily stays inside.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: And they've, as we mentioned, maintained a very private life
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: since then.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: And it's really scary.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: Given all of that, do you feel like Oscar was
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: a leader in the group or a follower or just
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: like how, where do you feel like he fits into
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: the whole dynamic?
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's important to take his age into
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: consideration just because, you know, when you're young, you're super,
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: it's really.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: Impressionable by the wrong crowd.
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: And, you know, the amount of autonomy you have, especially
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: in a group dynamic where, you know, I imagine being
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: Latino and from Honduras and Florida, it's a very specific community.
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: So I think there is that mob mentality of wanting
• 14:53
  Speaker 4: to be involved.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: In what the people around you and the people you
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: know are involved with. So, you know, I don't necessarily
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: think that he was... you know, really in on a lot.
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: Of the decisions, maybe in the moment, during while in
• 15:06
  Speaker 4: those three days that they abducted the family. But as
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: far as, you know, who was the person behind the plan,
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: I definitely think Bianca.
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: And, you know, manipulated her way into, you know, having
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: the help and, and also like, you know, manipulating the
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: situation in which she ultimately was.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: The one who escaped and everyone else kind of took
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: the fall.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: Took the fall.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: That is wild.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: So during the struggle that Marcela pulls off Bianca's mask,
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: and according to the police account and also in the movie,
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: you know, Bianca essentially panicked because Marcela had seen her face.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: And do you think that's the moment when she realized, oh,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: we really, these people are going to kill us now?
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, for sure. I mean, Again, you know,
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: three days of being captured and terrorized. You know, I
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: just can't help but think there's a version of this
• 16:10
  Speaker 4: in which, you know, they kind of, it's.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: One of those situations you walk in and there's not,
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: it's kind of a cold case.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: So thankfully, I mean, again, I can't imagine being in
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: that situation, but I think the desperation of having to
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: escape and knowing what's coming and Marcela, you know, really
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: being the one.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: To rescue herself.
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: That led to ultimately, you know, saving her family and
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: the arrest of, you know, the perpetrators. Um, so yeah,
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: I definitely think that realization, the notion that, you know,
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: they're going to have to get rid of us because
• 16:46
  Speaker 4: we've seen too much now is, uh, probably was probably
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: a really big influence on, on, on the risks that
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: she took.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Because she, uh, you know, to be clear, uh, Marcella
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: ultimately freed her hands, jumps backwards from a second story
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: window with her feet still bound together with tape, and
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: she landed between two air conditioning units and then got
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: up and ran somehow. And then while she was running
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: is when.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Your character shoots her.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: So does that, this is going to sound like a
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: ridiculous question, but does that moment strike you as.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: You know, how powerful a survival instinct can become on
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: both sides, really, both your character and hers.
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: I mean, you know, from, like, I mean, that's an
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: interesting question because, you know, I never took the other
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: side of the coin there.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: I think both parties are acting outside of, or in
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: this desperation of, you know, survival. I think the family
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: component is definitely a, You know, I hear cases all
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: the time of people who, you know, are capable of
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: doing extraordinary things because a loved one's in danger. And
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: I think that can definitely be, you know, more, I guess,
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: more like, you know, celebrated with these stories of resilience
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: and bouncing back from trauma and tragedy and, you know, terror. Um, so,
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: so I definitely think that for Marcella was a giant component. Um,
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: and she was pregnant too.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: Right. So that's a whole other thing. You know, it's,
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: you're carrying another life. So I can't even, I just
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: thinking about how brave.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: Like the mother. I mean, listen, I'm a mom.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: I have a 14 year old daughter and that fierce,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: like I, I can imagine like you would do absolutely anything,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: but the physicality of being pregnant is, and actually being
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: able to do those things and survive and their child is,
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: is alive and well, it's kind of just unbelievable that,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: It's ordinary. I mean, yeah.
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: Talk about strong and, you know, brave woman, you know,
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: you know, like, yeah, crazy, crazy, crazy.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: So the three men, your character included, they were quickly
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: identified and arrested, but Bianca dos Santos, as we mentioned, escaped.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: And today is still at large, which is unbelievable.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: Were you stunned to learn that one of the people
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: accused of orchestrating something this horrific has never.
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: been brought to justice?
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that was, it's kind of crazy to think
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: about in the world of, you know, modern technology. I mean,
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: even in 2009, where the story took place, you know,
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: there were a lot of resources that, you know, police
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: could use to find.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: People quickly, to identify them. So, how she kind of
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: got through the holes.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: Is again, I don't, I do think when you think
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: about the whole situation, I think the most calculated person
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: was Bianca. So sometimes when I think about, you know,
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: her escape, you know, there is a level of intelligence.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: Somebody has to be to, to one put together, you know,
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: this plan, but also to have contingencies in order to,
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: escaped and not be held accountable. Like the people that
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: she hired or she manipulated in order to, to be
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: her handyman.
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, I do think that, yeah, I mean, obviously
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: horrible person. Um, but yeah, the level of intelligence she
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: needed to, to, to do that.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: And then she, I mean, ultimately it's, it seems like
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: she had, you know, essentially the wrong information, like fundamentally
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: incorrect facts that was the whole source, an impetus for
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: them to commit this crime. So probably her anger was
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: pretty extensive also for discovering that she really made a mistake.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: So Oscar's story took a completely different turn. So before
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: his trial, He attempted suicide in the Orange County Jail
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: and suffered catastrophic brain damage, and this left him in
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: a vegetative state. He had been facing 11 felony charges,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: including attempted murder, but because of his condition, he was
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: never tried. So do you see that as justice left unfinished?
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I do, in a sense.
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: You know, I kind of revisited that whole aspect of
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: the story afterwards because more information was available. And, you know,
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: for Marcella's sake, I think, you know, because of what
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: Oscar did to himself, it really prolonged the prosecution. And,
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: you know, it was costing the jail supposedly a lot
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: of money because of, you know, he couldn't eat. He
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: had to be fed through tubes and, Um, and I
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: think it was, I believe it was Oscar's mom who
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: requested for him to go back to Honduras. And at
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: first Marcella, you know, she wanted him to, to, to
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: take accountability for what he did, you know, regardless and
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: totally understandable. Um, but I think as time kept going and,
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: you know, she still had to be involved with the
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: people who essentially ruined a good portion of her life. Um,
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: especially the, the individual who paralyzed her for a time.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: Uh, I think.
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: Because you know, there is, I mean, in the story
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: there is, she does ultimately forgive him. Um, but I
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: definitely think, I mean, one, like that came from a
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: very personal place from her, cause that's not easy to do,
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: but I think it also came from a place of
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: just wanting to shed herself of the trauma of the past. Um,
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: but I, but I do think that, I mean, yeah,
• 23:19
  Speaker 4: you know, accountability is an important thing. And I think
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: there's a lot to kind of investigate there. What's, how
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: does somebody pay the price when they're no longer able
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: to physically?
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: Right. Right.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: And is that sort of the payment?
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: Like, is that the justice then that they don't essentially
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: have a livable life really? But this is the, those
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: things are always such interesting questions in terms of like
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: for the victims. I always think about this because it,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: it seems to be very different and a very individual,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: obviously kind of, uh, feeling you know people act see
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: justice or being able to move on in very different
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: ways like some victims have really wanted to face the
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: perpetrator in court and really see them you know admit
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: it and suffer and be put away others feel like
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: we need to move forward now we just it doesn't
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: it almost they just don't even want to you know
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: kind of acknowledge it anymore it's complicated it shouldn't I still, like,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: how does someone that has orchestrated something this horrific, like,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: I just.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Don't get it. How is she not caught? It's like,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: it's mind-boggling to me.
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember on set, Anissa, the actress who plays Bianca, she,
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: you know, we were- She's very good.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: She's very scary.
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we would make conspiracies about it.
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: And, you know, this idea that, you know, if she
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: was like one of the PAs on set and she was,
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: you know, getting off on.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: Like, oh, I'm in this movie.
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: Um, but no, yeah, yeah. I mean, I love, you know,
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: true crime.
• 25:00
  Speaker 4: I read a lot about cold cases and stuff, but
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: you know, those are mostly in the seventies, whereas this
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: is kind of time.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: And yeah, it's, I mean, who knows what she's doing
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: right now?
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: I know she could be like Bugsy Siegel. Didn't they
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: catch him like 30 years later or something?
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: I remember going to.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: LA, like he was in Santa Monica at the, like, uh,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: that bar on second street. I'm like, wait, what?
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: He was like shooting darts in there or something.
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: Well, it's crazy now with like DNA and everything, you know,
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: they can, you know, sometimes the people have passed since
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: the crimes, but they know who it is and give
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: it a name and stuff. Right. Yeah.
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: It's true crime and the whole, yeah, it's crazy.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: Well, Ivan, this has been so great. Thank you so
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: much for talking with me.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: The movie is called Terror Comes Knocking, the Marcela Borges.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: Story, and it is streaming on Netflix now.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Well, you're really great in this movie and I wish
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: you all the best with everything.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: So I hope we get to our paths cross again.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that'd be awesome. Thank you so much.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: All right. Thanks, Ivan. Great to meet you.