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Levels at Competition- Thoughts from your Judges · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is Making the Impact, a Dance Competition Podcast.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Each week, we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Back in the good old days of dance competitions, the only things that separated dancers were age and style categories.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Levels are a relatively recent phenomenon in the dance competition world and have allowed many more dancers to compete and get feedback from judges, experience the excitement of a competitive stage, and go home with the trophy they've earned.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: However, in today's competitive world, the level system seems to be out of control, with some events having up to five different levels of competition, as well as some studios seeking to game the system for a win.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: On this episode of Making the Impact, we're here to discuss the pros and cons of the level system and what the judges are really looking for in each level.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: Hey everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I am here today with my co-host Leslie Mueller.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, podcast listeners.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: Today we are so ready to talk about the hottest topic in the industry: levels at competition.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: But before we jump in, we want to say thank you to all of our listeners and subscribers.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: We have had an amazing time making this podcast happen, and we couldn't do it without you.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: So keep listening, keep subscribing, share with all of your friends.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget to follow IDA on social media to stay up to date with our new episode releases, our judges tips every Tuesday.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: And you can even see which judges will be at each event throughout the 2020 competition season.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: So be sure to follow us at Impact Dance Adjudicators on social media now.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I know we're nearing the end of competition season, but if you are still in need of any dance gear, be sure to check out our season sponsor, Level Up Dance Supplies.
• 2:01
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• 2:17
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• 2:22
  SPEAKER_03: We are super excited to talk about levels today.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's seriously one of the hottest topics in the industry, and we have two awesome IDA judges to give us their thoughts.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_03: So, first up, let's say hi to Steven Cardona.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: Hello, hello, how are you?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, great, thank you.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: Good.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm so glad to have you here today.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I would just love for you to share with the listeners a little bit about who you are, where you're from, and what you're up to in the industry.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_04: Sure, yeah, absolutely.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm originally from Disney World, Florida.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_04: Well, Orlando, Florida.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I went to school.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_04: I went to college at the Boston Conservatory, got my BFA in musical theater over there.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_04: And while I was there, I learned quickly that I did not want to become a performer because I actually belonged behind the table.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_04: So I am working now as a director choreographer.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_04: And then I like to also teach and pass along any information that I've learned in the industry to my students.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, so a couple of things that I've done in the past, I currently work for a Disney theatrical group.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_04: So I teach choreography from all of the Disney on Broadway shows, so Aladdin, Lion King, and Frozen.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_04: And then I also do my own freelance work.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_04: So I just recently worked at the Old Globe as the associate director over there, working on a brand new musical called Looking for Christmas, which should be uh touring next year, which I'm really excited about.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_04: So check that out.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, that's a little bit about me.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_03: Awesome.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: So happy to have you, Steven.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks so much.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: And next up is the fabulous Amy Mays.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_03: Hello.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, thanks for having me.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_03: Of course.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: So tell everyone a little bit about you, what you're up to, where you're from, and any career credits you want to share.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, so I'm originally from a small town in North Carolina called Mebin.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I went to North Carolina School of the Arts and UNC Greensboro, where I graduated with my BFA in choreography and performance.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then after that, I was in Orlando and performed at Walt Disney World for a small modern company called Soul Play.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: And then I moved to Black Mountain, North Carolina, where I currently run my own program at a nonprofit arts center.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And most recently, I've been cross-training gymnasts in dance and have been traveling with these Olympic coaches overseas to do dance clinics and teach gymnasts in Sweden and Denmark.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: I know I've been watching your world world travels and it's so exciting.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really cool crossover, and it's really awesome to see these gymnasts embrace learning all these dance techniques.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really fun.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome, Amy.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks so much for being here.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thanks, guys.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: We really appreciate you taking your time to spend with us tonight on this super hot topic of levels.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: We are using all of our previous blog topics as inspiration for this podcast.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: The blog that inspired this podcast was released in February 2017, and it's called Levels, a Judge's Perspective.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if you want to hear even more after this conversation, check out the show notes to find the link to read more.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: And okay, let's jump right on in because this is, you know, this is probably one of the most contested topics, I think, on the Dance Teacher Facebook groups and at competitions in general.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear your thoughts on just general feelings about levels in the competition world.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember a time where there were no levels?
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: Was it better?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Was it worse?
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: What are the benefits?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_00: Just let's start throwing some ideas out.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't remember having levels when I grew up.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe I'm old, but I really don't ever remember there being levels until I started taking my students to competition, which was, you know, back in, you know, 2004, 2005.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, do we have a date when these came out?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean we all know.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_03: I I'm thinking back of like, so I'm 30 and I stopped competing when I was like 16, 17, which was probably like 2006.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: So back then, I think that I don't I personally don't remember there being levels, but I feel like that there might have been some competitions that were slowly introducing the idea at that time.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: But like when I phased out of the competition world, levels didn't exist, or at least like when I competed, we always competed at the highest level.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_03: I remember like there were sometimes maybe recreational and competitive, but there was never like the three levels like what we have currently.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know the exact date, but I know like between when I stopped competing and then when I started judging, only like six years later, levels were a new thing.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I would say early.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: I finished competing in 2003, and that at that time there were levels.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: So at least 2003, if not slightly earlier, from some competitions.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_03: They were like making an entrance, and now everybody has them.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: I can't I can't think of anybody who doesn't.
• 7:14
  unknown: I know.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: Any thoughts on levels?
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_03: Just the general levels, Steven.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, I honestly I don't I d same thing with you guys.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_04: I don't remember at all having levels, but I was also just there to have fun and dance.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_04: You know, as as a student, I was there to to enjoy myself.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think that's you know, of course we all we all love, you know, the competition aspect of it and and everything, but I feel like that I'm already jumping in with my thoughts on the level thing.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like that by adding the levels, it's just like giving more people first place instead of creating like a harder competition experience.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: So like it it just depends on what you want out of it, or you know, and I I think that levels are great because I love that it's opening up the competition stage to recreational dancers.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's where levels are great because when I like I mentioned, when I was growing up, I didn't we'd never competed recreational.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: We were always considered a competitive studio, so we would compete in the highest level.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: But now everybody kind of competes, all studios compete.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: So it is great that recreational dancers are coming to the stage.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_03: But now I think we all probably I don't know if we all agree, but that middle level.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's the big gray area.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the hardest part is that in between recreational and advanced.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: And what do we feel to like to me?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like the the intermediate level, the whatever you call it, a lot of people call it different things, but I call it intermediate, the middle level.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like you said, it's like you're either at the bottom of it where you're like, you know, still probably should be in the recreational category, or you're at the top of it where you should be competing against the advanced dancers.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_03: And you might not get the ultimate sapphire diamond, whatever the highest award is, if you were competing against them.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: But based on, you know, their level of training and how much they're dancing, they probably should be competing against them.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: So what do you guys feel is the appropriate that middle level?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what do you feel is how many hours a week, or you know, that's something we're gonna eventually get to, but like what do you think that should be for the middle level?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I feel I I totally agree with you.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_04: I think every competition is completely different, but in general, most competitions they do it based off of two things, right?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_04: It's about how many years you have been studying and how many hours a week you've been studying, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_04: And honestly, it's usually off of the honor system, right?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_04: You usually tell tell the competition and then we just believe whatever you say because there's we're not gonna go into your dance studio and interact with you and find out.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like Amy said earlier, it's a it's a gray area because you know, at one studio you might be advanced.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: At another studio, you might be a beginner, just as in at the competition world.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like you may be in that intermediate level being at the very highest part of the level and need to bump up, or you could be at the very lowest part of that level and need to bump down.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think the problem with the middle level is most competitions in the US, and I I know of a couple of exceptions, do base it on hours or years competing.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Now, some of them have started doing it by skill and which skills you have.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I to me that seems like the better choice if we're if we're looking at the three separate choices of hours per week, years of competition, or skill level, you know, and I've judged a couple of things in Canada too, and they seem to do it that way as well.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: They work on a curriculum not only in ballet, but in tap and in jazz.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I was watching these, you know, these seven to nine-year-old jazz numbers, and I kept seeing all these steps, and it was like the same combination of steps over and over again from every studio.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, wow, they're really doing it right here.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then I found out that because they work on a syllabus, and at nine years old, this is what you get to do, all of them, no matter how many more turns you can do than your friend or whatever it is.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I'm really curious to know one, if there are any competitions in the states that do that.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And do we find it more beneficial and easier to judge and easier to determine, okay, well, clearly she belongs in this level because A, B, and C have been met.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think a rubric would be fantastic if there could be a like one for the dance world in general, because you know, as I've been training these gymnasts, it's the same way.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like they go by USA gymnastic guidelines.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: Their meets may be privately run, but a level eight gymnast is gonna have this, this, and this.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very clear what those expectations are.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like if we had some way to govern that in the competition world, then it would take away a lot of that questioning well, are they, you know, in the right level?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Are they too, you know, in the lower level or in the higher level?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think just having some kind of set guidelines.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I did work for a competition that gave us judges a list of what their expectations were for each level, which I think was very helpful to have.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_04: So are you all suggesting that each competition should have like, okay, so for a level one, you have to have paradidals and drawbacks, but for a level two, you have to have wings and you have to have grab-offs, or what what would be the criteria?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think something like that sounds great, but I think that it would be really hard to enforce.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that people would structure their choreography around that and feel like that they don't have as much artistic freedom because they're trying to structure it to what the competition says is allowed.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's where I have like some reservations about it because, you know, unlike gymnastics, unlike sports, you know, there obviously in gymnastics and like ice skating, I'm thinking specifically, there is a level of artistry and you are judged accordingly, but that is not the first thing that they're judging on.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it's the technical aspects of those sports that get judged the hardest.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas with dance, you know, we are almost trying to look at it equally.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't, you know, if we were just gonna pull it down to two scores, you know, artistry and technique, there it is.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: I would find it very difficult probably to have to limit my choreography to some of those things.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I do feel like there would be a lot of backlash.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: So what if what if that middle level just disappeared and we just went back to recreational and advanced?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds wonderful.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_04: I would love Honestly, I would love like recreational and competitive, like a few things.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that a lot of people are in agreement.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I I don't know if teachers are in agreement, but I think judges are in agreement.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I mean, I don't know.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_03: I something that we're gonna talk about as far as this intermediate level, like I think the reason that we don't love it as judges, you know, we have to sit there and like you mentioned, Steven, it's the honor system.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: You're put we are trusting you to put your dancers in the appropriate level based on whatever the rules of that competition is.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_03: Every competition has different rules, like we already discussed the different ways to categorize levels, but sometimes people abuse the levels.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: And that's the issue with the middle level.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's where the abusing happens.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_03: If you're recreational or competitive, it's you're not gonna abuse it, you know, because and there's something for me, I feel like that something that I notice is let's say, for example, that the levels are structured by how many hours you train a week at the studio.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_03: To me, I don't feel like it's fair when I see a dancer in the middle level who is in 15 dances, because that already automatically tells me that you're at least at the studio probably 15 hours to just get these dances done.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: So, but but then people are like, Well, I only train for four hours a week.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um they're not taking that rehearsal.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're not, you know, using that rehearsal time, which is obviously time that they're spending to grow as an artist technically, you know, and performance-wise, which should definitely be included.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_03: So, so yeah, I mean, I like you said, Amy, I just don't feel like that people should not count rehearsal time into the equation because that's part of your training.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: I that's that's something that doesn't make sense to me.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I just wish that people would follow that guideline.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_03: So if that means that, you know, you that means you're gonna be in the advanced level, then hey, that means you're in the advanced level.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Go for it, see how it goes.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe like in the verbiage as far as competition guidelines, like they need to specify that instead of just saying training, maybe they should say training and rehearsal.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we all know that it should be, both should be taken and taken into account, but I mean, sometimes you do have to just like put it all out there in writing and say, Well, I did specifically say both included in that guideline.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: Steven, what were you gonna say?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_04: Can I pose what might be kind of a controversial question?
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_04: Please.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_04: So when you're judging as judges, do you even pay attention to the levels?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't necessarily I have you have to, I think, to an extent, especially when there are three, and especially if the competition does not structure the day where you have a bunch of recreational, then a bunch of intermediate, and then a bunch of advanced.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like some places do that, and some places intersperse them.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if I'm watching a dance and I'm like, wow, she's 14 and she's she's not really doing that much.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I have to look down and say, oh, that's because she's in the recreational level.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: She probably started last year.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, now I can judge accordingly.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, I'm looking at you and maybe I just saw an advanced 14-year-old and I'm thinking she should be on the same, you know.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's and so many competitions also do the the curve.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like they they give you the scoring rubric on a curve already.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it does make it really challenging to to have to judge in three different levels, just to switch your brain back and forth as to what I'm supposed to expect from you.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And but I think the most what tends to happen with me the most is as I'm judging, if I'm watching and then I have to look down a couple times, like wait, wait, intermediate?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, like this girl's this dancer is definitely in the advanced level.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I have to question it, like that's really when I pay the most attention, is if I'm a little confused about why you're here.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_04: But I think you answer my point, Leslie, which is that when I'm judging, for me at least, I'm usually just looking at the age, right?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_04: Like I sometimes I'll glance at like the level of what they're at, but I'm usually like, okay, this person is a, you know, 14-year-old, it's a 10-year-old, and I know kind of with my history with my students, kind of where they should be at.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_04: And then if something seems a little bit off, you know, 16 years old and you're not where I think you should be, then I can usually look at the level and say, oh, okay.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_04: And then kind of change my rubric.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_04: But in general, that's I'm spending more time watching my dancers than I'm looking at a piece of paper or at a computer screen that's telling me their levels.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think that's a great point because earlier this season we did an age range expectations podcast episode.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: And that episode was very much about what we as teachers and judges expect to see on stage of competition.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: But the problem with that, which makes it hard, is now you add levels to the mix.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, an eight-year-old should they be doing the same steps as a recreational eight-year-old or an advanced eight-year-old?
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_03: And what is what should that advanced eight-year-old be doing?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, should they be doing quadruple pirouettes?
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know, you know, and but like if they can, then who am I to say don't do it?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: If you did it perfectly, well then good for you.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like Right.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: So it makes it hard.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like you said, I mean, when we were growing up, like we all mentioned, there really weren't levels.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: So that's how the judges judged back then was you are a 10-year-old dancer and you should be doing this at 10 years old.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: And if you're doing something beyond this at 10 years old, then you're like, you win.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: You win.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: You win.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_04: So now I know that there's all these, you know, Facebooks and Instagrams and stuff where people are having conversations about the judging dance world.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm actually not involved in that.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_04: I kind of stay away from it.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm very curious, what are people talking about in terms of levels?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: Like in terms of like, how can people abuse the levels in competition world?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it's so easy.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's so easy to abuse it because nobody tends to call it out.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: No one enforces the rules, it seems to me.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, like you mentioned at the very beginning, I think the reason it's abused so frequently is because we as judges and the competition directors are trusting the studio owners to properly place their dances.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_03: And if they're, you know, not following the rules or the whatever guidelines are given, then they're abusing the system.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_03: Now, the thing that's a little bit sticky, I think, with all of this is that, you know, like we kind of mentioned, we as judges don't want to penalize the dancers for, you know, a mistake by the teacher.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: You know, maybe the teacher thinks that they're intermediate, but all three judges think that they're advanced.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: You know, a lot of people are like, oh, well, why don't the judges bump them if if that's the case?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: But we all we don't always have that that freedom to do so, you know.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: So we we don't want to penalize the dancers or misplace them, you know.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_03: What if they truly are intermediate?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_03: We don't know.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_03: We don't know how many days they're training or we don't know if it if this is their first competition.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's how the level system gets abused quite often.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: But like most of the time, like you said, Leslie, like we as judges are kind we probably do know if you're abusing it.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like we can we can tell.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_03: I know that if you're in 20 dances and in the intermediate level, you're abusing the system to me.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's right away.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm just like seen you 20 times.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_03: You're not an intermediate dancer.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: And is this something that competitions can take care of ahead of time because they see how many dancer dances that these people are listed in?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's all online.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: So is this not something that can be, you know, reached out to the teacher before and say, you know, we just want to make sure that you have, you know, correctly placed your dancers.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: I see that they're in 20 numbers, and you know, is this really how many hours a week they're training and whatnot?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't know how much yeah, I mean, I don't know how much extra work that would take, but yeah, you nailed it.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I feel like totally I agree with you 100%.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like, why why shouldn't competitions do that and reach out?
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's also just from hearing from some studio owners, not necessarily like the why behind, and I don't know that they would even look at this as abusing the system, but there's there's many times that I've heard that once they find out who else is coming to the competition, then they move their dancers accordingly.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've heard that too.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because number on on the one hand, which I do understand this to an extent, they don't want their dancers to be the only ones in the category.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so if everybody is placed, if if nobody is bumping down to the intermediate, like if everybody's saying they're advanced and then there's one, the one intermediate studio, or I'm thinking I'm going backwards with this.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: If if everybody's saying they're intermediate and there's only one advanced, one person who thinks, okay, we're gonna put our kids in advance, but then nobody else is there, well, then it defeats the purpose of that level of competition because they're not competing against anybody but themselves.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: So it I think it can sometimes shift in that regard too.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know that that's malicious.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think That's just trying to give somebody some competition because if nobody is willing to say we are advanced because they're afraid there's going to be more advanced people there, then you're just you're just kind of you know kicking yourself in the face, like and not in a good way.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: But those kind of moves, I mean, I applaud that for like wanting this teacher wanting this dancer to, you know, have competition and really see how they compare and you know, teaching them that it's not just about, well, I'm the only one in this category or I'm on the only one in this level, so I'm automatically gonna win.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like that dancer could come into the, you know, go down a level and not necessarily take everything.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, I applaud in that situation, but I think the reverse is when they bump down because they're used to going with another, you know, going up against another studio.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, totally.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_04: And Amy, as a comparison, you know, when I was growing up in competition world, you know, there would be very few guys in competitions.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_04: And when I would do it, sometimes I'd go for title.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_04: And you know what?
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes I wouldn't get it because why I didn't, you know, get the right bracket and you know, place whatever their rules were.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_04: You know, so I think it's kind of the same thing.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_04: Just because you're in the same level, just because if I was the only guy in my age range, you know, to do eat title, why should I automatically win?
• 23:20
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• 23:28
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• 24:03
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• 24:10
  SPEAKER_03: Another reason, kind of like what you were mentioning, Leslie, as far as like having people to compete against, another reason why I dislike levels is because you're now creating three competitions at one event instead of one giant competition.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: So a lot of I think something that's worth mentioning is a lot of teachers and studio owners often on a lot of the, you know, forums and things complain that the judges don't use their full like award spread.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you know, don't dip into the silvers and don't dip into the golds anymore.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that people don't realize that we would be dipping into that if everyone was competing against each other.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's so true.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: That is absolutely so true.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: But because you, you teachers wanted levels for your recreational dancers and for your intermediate level dancers, then you, as an intermediate level dancer, are a high platinum.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: And that's what you're gonna get because I'm judging you in the intermediate level.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: If we were all competing against each other, then we would be able to use that like six point that six award level spread more frequently.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: So it just depends on what everyone wants.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like I've been to competitions where there is one studio competing against themselves in the advanced category.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_03: And that's so unfair.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_03: Interesting.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's unfair and it's a little boring, and like that's just the same line of kids over and over again, and then Sally and Susie switch places every different, you know, first and second place.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's just kind of like, well, and you spent so much money.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like you spent so much money for an entry fees to show up to a competition and find out you're the only ones in that level.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like you're you know, you hear that, oh, there's 20 studios here.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna have competition, but everyone's only in the recreational intermediate level.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_04: I have to say, honestly, I was shocked when I started judging because I took a a break between obviously competing and then judging.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_04: And then when I came back and seeing the award ceremonies and how long they are and how many different overalls, I was like, what?
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_04: You have this many overalls?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it's honestly it's because of levels, because we've created these levels.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I wonder, I wonder, I don't know, but I wonder if I was, you know, at that age now and sitting at awards, if I if it would mean anything to me.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, I got first place in this level category.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_04: Because you just hear it over and over again.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_04: And there's so many first places, you know?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it does the value of a first place.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, from a business standpoint, I understand if you only gave out first, second, and third period, you don't have a business.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: You have the Olympics.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not a sustainable business model.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: It is for the Olympics, but it's not for you know what we're doing here.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: So like I I get it to a certain extent, but like you said, Steven, that it's I mean, to the lay person who, you know, if you're a grandpa who's coming to the dance competition to see Sally do her thing and you're sitting at that awards ceremony, and it's it's gotta be so confusing, you know, to just constantly hear high gold.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: High gold.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, what is a high gold?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm confused at competitions and I'm judging them, you know.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like I think that all of those expectations need to be laid out a little bit clearer for everybody.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_03: Another thing that's worth mentioning is that in regards to levels in different regions, every region is very different as far as like caliber and talent.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: So it's very interesting as a judge to, you know, I'm from New York, so I judge a lot on the East Coast, and I grew up on the East Coast, so I know what the caliber of talent is.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_03: Fly over to the West Coast, whoa, you're in a whole different competition world over there.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: It is completely different.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: They're like I said, nine-year-olds are doing like double leg catch turns and like crazy things that you would never see done by a nine-year-old in a different region.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, and they and like sometimes that dancer might be considered beginner at that studio.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like that studio has A B an A team and a B team, and that A team is doing like quadruple leg catch turns and like, you know, crazy stuff.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: And that's advanced to them and double A catches beginner to them.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the difference as far as when it comes to regions.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that most of the time we as judges try to think of, you know, that in our in our head, the mindset of, all right, well, this I know what the level is at this region, I'm gonna judge accordingly.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm not going to have that expectation of like super duper advanced beginners in my head when I'm judging, depending on where I'm located.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Courtney, you make a good point because it's not even just about yes, regions in terms of West and East Coast, but also every single competition is different.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: You're gonna have different, a different rubric that you're based off of the competitors that come in every single time.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_04: And you're like, that's the thing, is as judges, you know, it's really hard because we get in.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_04: And I feel so bad for the people who go first.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_04: I feel so bad because we're like, we're giving them our honest opinion, but it's hard to figure out, okay, where are you in terms of this competition?
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: Where is the level of yeah, what's the range?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: That that is probably I would say one of the hardest things about being a judge as we like pull the curtain back from the judging experience, ladies and gentlemen.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: That that is very difficult because again, like I said, with the way certain competitions order their day, we may be starting with four-year-old beginner, mini novice team dances.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's what we have to go off of for the first 10 numbers, is is the babies.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I have no idea how to like that's a very challenging beginning of the day to try to grade your whole weekend off of.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a challenge.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: It is.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_03: Our job is hard as a judge.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's not, it's not as glamorous as some people might think.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's you know, we put a lot of thought into it to try to make, you know, things as fair as possible, as honest as possible, you know, within the confines of of what we are how are allowed to do.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think, like we've said earlier on several other podcasts and and today, you know, we can only do what the competitions allow us to do in terms of bumping, in terms of moving people around.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's that's kind of up to them sometimes.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_04: So it's also hard because we care about our dancers, you know, because a lot of us are also teachers outside.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_04: And so when we watch these dancers, we we really want to give them our honest opinion.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_04: We we want them to succeed, and I think that's the important thing.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: So we we briefly touched on this, but I have another point that I want to share.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: But do you guys have any suggestions on how we can prevent the abusing from continuing as far as probably talking about the middle level, but all levels in general?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think if competitions really would allow us judges to bump as necessary and follow through.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think the biggest thing is following through with it and making sure that if we come together as a unanimous panel that this dancer should be bumped up, then it's gotta be follow through with the competition.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it it stems from them because it is their business that we are coming to judge at.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, I think it has to start with the directors from there, you know.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, with it being an honor system, you it's hard.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: You don't want to come at someone like they're being dishonest because, like you said, they really generally may feel that their dancer is in that.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to go back to the middle level because I think that's the hardest area.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, coming from a teacher standpoint, like I think it is an honor to have judges say, Well, you know, your dancer really is able to compete with the most advanced dancers at this competition.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that it is an honor to have someone come and say, Why don't why don't you go ahead and move them up?
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's a you know, kudos to the teacher and the studio and what they're doing there.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think it's a negative at all if we agree that that dancer is should be moved up to the next level.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that's a compliment.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_04: We usually when we say that in our critiques, we're like, hey, I think you should be moved up.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_04: It's not a you did the wrong thing, right?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_04: You know, poo-poo on you.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's hey, like this, you're ready for the next level.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because when you, you know, when when you have a student who is consistently first place in the intermediate level, then you have to bump them up.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, like, there's to me, there's no question, uh unless the only goal for that student is to win that trophy.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you bump up and you were first place in the intermediate level, but there's some competition in the advanced level, you're probably gonna get third or fourth, or maybe not even actually place.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: But you it will be the more honest, it will be the more, you know, moral, honestly, thing to do is to be placed where you belong instead of just sweeping consistently where it's easy, you know.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And that comes down to like integrity of the studio owner, of the teacher, of the dancer themselves by saying, you know what?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've done all I can do here.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: I have one first place for the last three competitions or whatever it is.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Let me see what happens next.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if that means I don't get that giant trophy, then that's what that means.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: And let me listen to these critiques, which is what we should be coming here for to be better, you know?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and most of the time, like if I've been in very limited situations where the competition has allowed us to bump.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think that mainly that happened like towards the early stages of my judging when levels were very new and the competitions were like, Yeah, sure.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: If you think they belong in the other level, go for it and like let us bump.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: But most of the time, if that were to happen, those dancers still hold their own in that level, most of the time.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know, they they don't even know that they're like, Oh my gosh, like you said, Leslie, like I got third in the advanced.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: And that's huge.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how exciting would that be?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_04: So Yeah, that's very true.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_04: Well, can I ask, do you think that there should be a penalty for anybody if they feel that they're abusing the system?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_04: And what would that penalty be?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_03: That is a good question.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: I you know, I have a lot of thoughts on rules in general at competition and like kind of what you mentioned, Amy, just having the competitions enforce them more.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_03: Do I think that the dancer should be penalized for a teacher's mistake?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think they should.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's the agreement with everyone.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: Don't penalize the dancer for something that they didn't do wrong.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if you put them in black tights and tan shoes on stage, that's not their fault, even though they shouldn't be wearing that.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean, sorry, I know this is really off topic, but some competitions we have to judge on costume, and yes, it's not the dancer's fault, but that is part of your score, and we're adjudicating you on that.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the other side to it.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_04: Like we are judging them.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_04: Like also some competitions they we judge them on choreography.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: That's not the dancer's fault, but we're still judging them on that.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_04: I agree.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_04: So maybe we do penalize, even though it's not the dancer's fault.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_04: That's just part of the criteria.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think there should be a teacher's deduction box, you know.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like, so we judge, we score, we critique, we're talking to the dancers, everything's so wonderful.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: And we don't, we, you know, create our score out of a hundred based on what we watched.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_03: Then at the bottom, there's like a checkbox of lots of rule-breaking things that we can check, check, check if we noticed happened.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: So that way the dancers and the teachers can see what their score was before the deductions.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_03: So they know what was penalized.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: And if, you know, if that's a level, then you know, we if we want to penalize for them, you know, we feel like you're on the wrong level.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_03: Courtney, that's brilliant.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I do.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: I hope somebody takes that idea and uses it.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Copyright Courtney or T.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_04: You're right, because then you get to separate.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like, so you're saying, okay, this is the artistry, this is the level of your work, and then this is all the technical elements, right?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, you do that with like movies, right?
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: Like, oh, like the story was really great, but the graphics, you know, were terrible.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_04: Or same thing with theater, like, oh, I love the costumes, didn't like the set, you know, and I love the music, hated the story, right?
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_04: So we we compartmentalize these things.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_04: So why not do the same thing with our adjudication?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think they do we do to an extent.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: And also again, depending on who you're judging for, some people again have the two scores, some people have up to like eight, which gets a little complicated.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: But we know when you're actually judging it.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: But no, I totally agree.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think something that's meant for the teachers, and I think you've suggested this before, Courtney, like a teacher adjudicator who is the only job that that judge has is to speak to the teacher about things the teacher can fix, i.e.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: choreography, formations, all the all that stuff that only the teacher hears.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because there are there's times where we're speaking to the student, and there's times when we're speaking to the teacher, and sometimes the two don't need to hear each other, but like we're all confined to one tape.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: Tape.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's something I'm I'm a big like, you know, I'm trying to stay like to the rule book.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I I slowly learned when I first started judging that not everybody really follows the rules, you know, even the teachers who are presenting a routine, you know, if this is a whole nother topic, but like let's say that we're talking about acro tricks in a dance for a split second, and you know, there's like five acro tricks in a jazz dance when the limit's two.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: Who's penalizing them?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the dancer's fault that there's five tricks because the teacher gave it to them.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_03: And when I first started judging, I thought that the tabulator, that was the tabulator's job was to like deal with like point deductions, or like if the music goes over too long, or if there's a s a cuss word in the song, or you know, things like that that that are part of the rules at competition.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_03: People still break them left and right.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the reason is is because no one's enforcing them.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that my request to every teacher listening to this podcast is please follow the rules.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's not that hard.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_03: You know, if if your dancer is intermediate, then put them in intermediate.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: But if they're, you know, abusing it, you're making our job harder because we don't want to penalize your dancers who've worked so hard up on stage.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: We want to set them up for success.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_04: But then on the other hand, then it's also awkward for the other teachers because then they're gonna have to be the ones who have to like go up to the competition owner and say, hey, they're breaking the rules, and like you don't want to be that teacher as well.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_04: So it's like one or the other.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_04: That's so true.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_04: If everyone just followed if everyone just followed the rules, then we wouldn't have this problem.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: I think some agree.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think something else that's kind of interesting is that I know a lot of studios who I I briefly mentioned this earlier that have like an A team and a B team.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_03: We did when I was growing up.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: We had like the competition team and then we had the company team, which only did one competition a year.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, looking at them in your studio, yes, there was a very different level, obviously, from you looking at these dancers.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: But are these based on the rules of the competition, are they truly advanced and intermediate based on the rules?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: I think that a lot of studio owners just go, oh, well, my B team's gonna be in the intermediate, my A team's gonna be in advanced, even if they don't even look at the what the rule guidelines are as to how to determine the level.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: They're just like, well, they're intermediate.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: They're not at the level of my advanced.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: But you know, that's that's the thing for me where I'm like, I sort of get that, but at the same time I don't because you're not following the rules.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: If the intermediate level does dance more than seven hours a week, they have to be in advanced.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_03: Even though the advanced dancers dance 20 hours a week, that's just what the rules are.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry about it.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_04: What if we made this even more fair?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if this is even a good idea or not, but what if we just said based it off of how many years you've been competing?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: Some do that.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, some do that.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, they do.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, great.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: Some of them do, but you know, it's hard to got it's really hard to know if that's being But it's quantifiable.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: It is, but also, I mean within your I it's I think all of this, like we've said before, comes down to, okay, well, in this region, I am advanced and I take 10 hours a week.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: But do we how do we know that training is even good for 10 hours a week?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: You could train 10 hours a week at a dance studio that isn't training you well, and then you put her put that dancer next to somebody who's, you know, even training five hours a week at a stellar studio who's so focused.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is what it is.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like just in life, it's like, okay, some people have some things and some people don't.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of your training is not gonna be equal.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think even hours or years of competition, like, I mean, yeah, I showed up at a competition for five years in a row, but what does that mean?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's gonna get really sticky with the ages too, because you may have this like prodigy five-year-old who it's her first year competing, but she's obviously, you know, in the studio, you know, 10 hours a day, maybe or whatnot.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, you know, I mean, there may be they're out there, I'm sure.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: They are.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: But you know what I'm saying.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: So like I think it gets sticky as far as when it gets to ages.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think older dancers, you know, possibly the years can can help.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, once again, I think it really boils down to competitions setting expectations as to what they feel each level should entail.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you want in beginner?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to see in a beginner dance?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_01: What do you want to see in an intermediate dance?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, give us actual, you know, terminology that you expect them to have mastered.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, like in the beginner level, I want to see them, you know, knowing how to count their music properly, staying in their formations, being in their windows, having clean arm lines, doing chasse steps and working on their single pirouettes and having a clean routine, not doing things that are beyond them and making sure that they can go out on stage and have fun and smile and nail it.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I it's about the fun in the beginner level and showing the foundations and the fundamentals of okay, this is what I'm working on in class, and this is what I how I'm going to progress to the intermediate level based on this foundation that I showed you at competition.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: Intermediate, I mean, we see a little bit of everything in there.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's true.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we see gymnastics passes, we see aerials.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_03: I've seen front aerials in the I don't think front aerial should be intermediate.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: That's a very advanced acro trick, even though everybody on the block can do it these days.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_03: That doesn't mean that that doesn't, you know, make it hard.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: That's a very hard skill to do.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: And things like that.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: But you should also be throwing it in there.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you can do it, you better be throwing it in there with some solid double and triple pirouettes and, you know, your your basic beginner, you know, wings and pullbacks and, you know, all of all of those sort of bread and butter steps and with a clean formation change and with an entrance and an exit that makes sense that shows that you have been trained to come on stage with confidence and set yourself up and not shuffle around and, you know, know where the center of the stage is and figure that out beforehand.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many times in the intermediate level where it's like, have you guys rehearsed this at all?
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I do notice that.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, okay, well, if you're in the intermediate level, which truly means you have been dancing, you know, for a while, you should be able to come on stage and know what's going on.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there are so many times I feel like almost the intermediate level sometimes can be that sort of not throwaway level, but it's like, okay, well, they've been dancing for X amount of years, but they're still not advanced.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the kids come on stage and they just kind of look what lost still.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I get a little bit confused too.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because they if if they're not, you know, obviously it goes back to the training.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're not coming on stage with that like clear focus, then I'm just a little bit like, should should we bump back down?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's exactly like I mentioned.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's like you're barely you like you're at the top of the recreational, or you should be advanced, most likely, in the intermediate level.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_03: That's kind of where it's at.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's hard to justify why why someone is in that intermediate level and what truly m classifies an intermediate level dancer.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's what is tricky.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_04: Man, intermediate is so hard.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_04: See, the thing for me is like the reason why as a judge I usually look at age as opposed to level is because it really depends, especially for for men, it's very different, right?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_04: I remember when I was a young dancer, I just could not get height.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_04: I'd always hear the same phrase get the lead out of your butt, get up there, be hype, you know.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_04: But I literally couldn't.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_04: I was trying so hard.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_04: And then, you know, I had this one guy, male dancer, who is older than me in my studio, and he He's like, don't worry, when you're 14, it will just happen, it will just click one day, and you'll be able to go up.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, okay, whatever.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_04: It happened.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_04: I turned 14 and bam! I like shot up and I could do all like the leaps and all the alsacon jumps, like anything, and I was like really high.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, what?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_04: This is crazy.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_04: But it's just something about like, you know, your body is going through changes, and usually a lot of those, you know, intermediate levels are like middle schoolers, and you know, they're they're either just getting to the height that they are you know going to be, or whatever is go happening with their bodies are maturing, and so therefore it's changing even weight distribution and like how they're gonna be standing on that one leg to do that turn or get up on that height.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_04: So that's why I personally really look at the age and kind of think, okay, where are you at?
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, you're in that awkward, like, I don't know if you're like there yet, but you're gonna be there, you know, like and it has nothing to do with you and your talent and your ability.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_04: It's literally just you're at that sucky age where your body's going through changes and it needs to catch up.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's very true.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's that's something we have to take into account too.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna bring you back uh from the beginning, and correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of the convention competition combos, now for me, I don't see there being any levels, no levels.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: And I love it.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's great.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I don't know, I don't know why I don't know how they kind of like got away with it, I guess.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_03: I think because their competition is less, there's not it's you know, it's not like a three-day competition.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: It's right, it's mainly focused on the classes and then competitions like a bonus.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I applaud the conventions in the industry who have not added levels.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: And it's interesting because I think that everybody knows going in that they are like, yeah, we know that there's no levels and we're going for it, and we're gonna see how we do.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like a little like special bonus event for them.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then I feel like that the advanced dancers are going to the convention competitions, probably because they know that there's gonna be a high caliber of talent at those events and there are no levels, so they actually have competition.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_03: And competition now is geared, you know.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_03: I see a lot more recreational and intermediate level dancers going to just the competition kind of competitions.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like the reason for that is that recreational dancers or recreational studios, so to say, weren't really involved in the competition industry as much back when we were all growing up when there weren't levels.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_03: Now they're just kind of finding out about it and they're like, oh, I want to do that.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_03: And now we made the level, so it, you know, is appropriate for them.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that they're just kind of finding out about it.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_03: So they're like, Well, I'm not gonna go get my booty whipped at a convention competition.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna go play it safe at this competition that has levels.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's probably what, you know, is going on in the industry.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: And I I support the conventions that do no levels.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's really great.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that their clients like it as well.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and it's interesting too, you know, when you're seeing that the level of talent at a convention competition, the added the other piece of that is that it's an educational experience.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so what is that saying that only the higher caliber dancers are going to this educational experience?
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's also a very interesting question to ask too.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, shouldn't I mean everybody should be seeking an educational experience, but it it almost feels exclusive in that regard of like, you know, well, I if if I'm an intermediate dancer, I don't even want to set foot at one of these big, you know, big guns because I'm intimidated, even though we're all there to learn and then you know, compete obviously is secondary.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: But that's just that's just an interesting dichotomy to note.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think I think in the end, what everyone needs to remember is that like competition is a really fun experience.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_03: And of course, like winning is exciting, but that's not that shouldn't be the end goal.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, we want to win.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, we of course we want to see how we rank next to others and see how hard our work has paid off.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that competition should be about getting on stage, having an opportunity to be in front of three uh judges who are professionals in the industry who are going to give you direct feedback on how you can improve and get better.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: And we're always even us as all professional dancers and teachers, we are always learning.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: We are always looking for ways to improve, even now.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: We're always still getting critiqued at auditions and things like that.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: Competition is an an opportunity for you to perform on stage, on the big stage with lights in your costume, get critiqued to take back home.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: And it should be a learning experience.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_03: It should be about the education.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I think one of the sad things is that a lot of people I don't think really care about the critiques as much as the trophy anymore.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_03: And that's why we have levels, because now there's three first places in every category, you know, things like that.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: I think it should really be about the experience so and the education, which is similar to what you're saying about the conventions.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_03: People are going for the education because they're getting the training at class and stuff like that.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: And they they have that background in their studio to be able to then go to that convention to learn at that high caliber.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, conventions are they are intimidating.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're talking some of the biggest names in the industry at some of these things, and you have to be able to cut it.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be able to get in there and learn and go and know, you know, a million people and no mirror.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I can understand that it's definitely uh a little bit intimidating, but you know, we don't get better unless we push ourselves.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that's part of it.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think it's all like character building as well.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, we're, you know, well, let's face it, as teachers, we know that not all of our dancers are gonna go into the professional world, but these experiences are setting them up for success in life as well, to know that you're not always gonna be on top.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_01: And it is important to follow the rules.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that as teachers, we have to set that example and, you know, know that we're building character in these young dancers to say, you know, these are the rules.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is what you follow.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you may not always win, but that's okay, because it's gonna make you a better person in life later on.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_03: We hope you enjoyed this week's episode all about levels.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_03: Head over to Instagram now to follow our guests.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: Steven at STVN Cardona and Amy at MazeAmy.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget to head over to Apple Podcasts now to rate us and leave us a fabulous review.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_03: We love hearing from all of you listeners, and we may even share your review live on the air in an upcoming episode.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have a dance competition question you've been dying to ask a judge?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now's your chance to send us your questions.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: We might answer them on the show and give you a shout out, or you can choose to remain anonymous.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: Submit your questions to us on our website at www.impactdanceadjudicators.com slash podcast via audio or text.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: Hey dancers, we miss seeing you on stage.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: So we decided to fix that.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: Introducing IDA's Virtual Dance Competition.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: IDA's virtual dance competition will be a solo or group event held directly online from the comfort of your home.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_03: Three IDA judges will critique and score your routine.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: You'll then have a chance to compete alongside other dancers from all across the world.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_03: We will be giving away high score awards, prizes from our sponsors, and even cash.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: Interested in competing?
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_03: Registration is now open.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Head to our website to learn more and contact us with any questions.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_03: We can't wait to see your dance.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Coming up in the next few weeks, we've got some fun topics, including the April edition of QA with Courtney and Musical Theater at Competition.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, and Spotify.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: And tune in every Monday for new episodes.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: Till next time, keep dancing.