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The MAHA Conference Goes Corporate · Paging America

0:00
SPEAKER_03: Hey Rob, the first story
0:29
SPEAKER_03: is all of our friends.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
0:32
SPEAKER_02: Big story.
0:32
SPEAKER_02: Why don't you come on, tell people about it.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: I want to hear more about it, too.
0:35
SPEAKER_02: I've been working all day.
0:36
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you were working in the ER.
0:38
SPEAKER_03: A bunch of the physicians with the Committee to Protect Healthcare descended
0:42
SPEAKER_03: on Washington,
0:43
SPEAKER_03: D.C. to oppose Dr. Heidi Overton's nomination to be the head of the FDA.
0:50
SPEAKER_03: And they met with senators from the HELP Committee all day.
0:54
SPEAKER_03: And they actually ran into Dr. Heidi Overton.
0:57
SPEAKER_03: There's going to be some more content posted about that shortly, so stay tuned.
1:01
SPEAKER_03: But the Hill was reporting on a letter circulated,
1:05
SPEAKER_03: had thousands of physicians and medical professionals sign on opposing
1:09
SPEAKER_03: the nomination.
1:10
SPEAKER_03: And they're covering that.
1:11
SPEAKER_03: And it sounds like some of the senators did not necessarily hear what they needed
1:16
SPEAKER_03: to hear to get to a yes for Dr. Heidi Overton.
1:19
SPEAKER_02: So this fight is not over by
1:20
SPEAKER_03: any stretch.
1:21
SPEAKER_03: There's a lot to go to keep her out of the FDA.
1:25
SPEAKER_03: But I think today was a bad day for Dr. Heidi Overton.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: Very bad day.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:29
SPEAKER_02: And so people know, like,
1:31
SPEAKER_02: we are going so hard into this because she is just a particularly terrifying person
1:37
SPEAKER_02: to lead this branch of HHS, right?
1:40
SPEAKER_02: She, unlike the others, she seems to just have this in her core, right?
1:45
SPEAKER_02: And she just believes it.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: She's an anti-abortion zealot.
1:48
SPEAKER_02: She's an anti-vax zealot.
1:50
SPEAKER_02: And it is really terrifying to see her in charge because those are the folks
1:55
SPEAKER_02: who can do the most damage.
1:55
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, people, please keep it up.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: Don't let it up.
1:58
SPEAKER_02: We can take this nomination.
2:00
SPEAKER_03: If you are a medical professional and you want to sign on,
2:03
SPEAKER_03: you can find the letter in the show notes.
2:06
SPEAKER_03: And there is also going to be plenty of actions between now and after the election
2:10
SPEAKER_03: to oppose Heidi Overton's nomination.
2:13
SPEAKER_03: So get in the game if you want to.
2:14
SPEAKER_03: And thanks for helping out in advance.
2:17
SPEAKER_03: And let's get into the show.
2:18
SPEAKER_03: So welcome back to Paging America,
2:20
SPEAKER_03: everybody, where we explore the power and profit shaping American health care.
2:23
SPEAKER_03: And your home base for news and interviews from people building
2:26
SPEAKER_03: the universal healthcare movement.
2:27
SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, campaign strategist Miles Baker.
2:29
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Dr.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: Rob Davidson.
2:31
SPEAKER_03: And we have a great show for you today.
2:33
SPEAKER_03: Before we get started, please head over to YouTube and hit the subscribe button.
2:36
SPEAKER_03: Help us fight misinformation and disinformation on the platform
2:39
SPEAKER_03: with real healthcare news and opinions.
2:41
SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much in advance for that.
2:45
SPEAKER_03: Today, Rob, we got a jam-packed show.
2:48
SPEAKER_03: On the back half, we have a great interview with Carmen Pond.
2:52
SPEAKER_03: She's a healthcare reporter for Politico,
2:54
SPEAKER_03: and she covered the Maha Conference in Washington, D.C.
2:58
SPEAKER_03: She gave us kind of an inside scoop from someone on the ground there,
3:00
SPEAKER_03: so stick around for that.
3:01
SPEAKER_03: It's a really fun conversation.
3:03
SPEAKER_03: But we have a lot in the news with NIH backing down from politicizing its grants.
3:08
SPEAKER_03: Chair of the Federal Autism Agency co-founded a lukevoring company.
3:12
SPEAKER_03: RFK Jr. loots the Office of Minority Health.
3:15
SPEAKER_03: And the CDC has finally admitted there have been deaths from measles.
3:18
SPEAKER_03: A lot to get into.
3:19
SPEAKER_03: We can just get started right away.
3:22
SPEAKER_03: Let's start with some good news.
3:24
SPEAKER_03: Well, even more good news than a bad day for Heidi Overton.
3:28
SPEAKER_03: In additional good news, the NIH is backing down from politicizing its grants.
3:32
SPEAKER_03: Last week,
3:33
SPEAKER_03: we discussed plans to politicize the NIH grantmaking process by creating
3:36
SPEAKER_03: a new external committee with the power to veto grants that Trump doesn't like.
3:40
SPEAKER_03: It got so bad that Senator Susan Collins sent a sternly worded letter
3:44
SPEAKER_03: to White House Budget Director Russell Vogt
3:46
SPEAKER_03: and NIH Director Jay Bhattacharya demanding that they abandon the idea.
3:51
SPEAKER_03: And it looks like it kind of worked.
3:52
SPEAKER_03: So from reporting from Politico,
3:54
SPEAKER_03: the White House has dropped a planned executive order that would put control
3:57
SPEAKER_03: over medical research grants in the hands of political appointees,
3:59
SPEAKER_03: according to Senator Susan,
4:01
SPEAKER_03: who urged the White House to drop the matter after it was first reported by Politico
4:04
SPEAKER_03: on Saturday.
4:05
SPEAKER_03: So what do we think, Rob?
4:07
SPEAKER_03: Was she actually concerned?
4:09
SPEAKER_03: Is she feeling the pressure because she's in the fight of her life up in Maine?
4:13
SPEAKER_03: She is.
4:14
SPEAKER_03: She's not.
4:15
SPEAKER_03: She's not favored to win that seat in Maine as of today.
4:18
SPEAKER_03: Right.
4:20
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I don't know if this is a bit of political theater on Susan Collins's part.
4:27
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if it is just that Trump administration had another half baked idea
4:31
SPEAKER_03: and it didn't get off off the ground.
4:33
SPEAKER_03: What do you think?
4:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean,
4:34
SPEAKER_02: I think the title of her memoir will be Turning Concern into Action,
4:38
SPEAKER_02: colon, a sternly worded letter.
4:39
SPEAKER_02: You know, so like, I don't know.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: Fucking who knows, right?
4:42
SPEAKER_02: Like, great, great.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: But like, why the hell?
4:46
SPEAKER_02: Do we ever even have to think about this?
4:48
SPEAKER_03: We didn't have to
4:49
SPEAKER_02: think about this before with any Republican president ever,
4:52
SPEAKER_02: with any Democratic president ever.
4:54
SPEAKER_02: These institutions funded research that needed to be funded,
4:57
SPEAKER_02: and it was decided by people who knew what the fuck they needed for research,
5:01
SPEAKER_02: not because of some little particular niche thing.
5:04
SPEAKER_02: And as Heidi Overton said, conservative-based research is what she was looking for.
5:08
SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I mean, it's great.
5:10
SPEAKER_02: But, like, why does ink have to be spilled on this kind of crap?
5:13
SPEAKER_02: And why do sternly worded letters have to be written by concerned senators?
5:17
SPEAKER_03: Right.
5:17
SPEAKER_03: It's just like
5:18
SPEAKER_03: the Trump administration repurposing congressionally appropriated funds
5:23
SPEAKER_03: into their personal little pots of, like, special projects money.
5:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
5:29
SPEAKER_03: And so I'm sure, I mean, they're doing it all over the place.
5:32
SPEAKER_03: So the fact that the NIH grants,
5:34
SPEAKER_03: at least for now, for this like brief moment in time, we'll see what happens.
5:38
SPEAKER_03: The NIH grants are going to be effective.
5:39
SPEAKER_03: It doesn't mean it's not happening like writ large across agencies in the government.
5:43
SPEAKER_02: We'll take it.
5:44
SPEAKER_02: We will take any sliver of good news coming out of this White House that we can get.
5:48
SPEAKER_03: Here's one from the only the griftiest people department.
5:54
SPEAKER_03: John...
5:55
SPEAKER_03: Gaetanus, MD,
6:00
SPEAKER_03: was recently appointed the new chair of
6:01
SPEAKER_03: the Federal Interagency Autism Coordinating Committee.
6:05
SPEAKER_03: It turns out that he was the co-founder of a company that provides lucavorin
6:08
SPEAKER_03: to families of children with autism.
6:10
SPEAKER_03: Lucavorin,
6:11
SPEAKER_03: also known as folinic acid,
6:14
SPEAKER_03: is used to treat cerebral folate deficiency,
6:16
SPEAKER_03: a rare condition that has been associated with developmental delays
6:20
SPEAKER_03: that include autistic features.
6:22
SPEAKER_03: Based on this, many in the MAHA orbit began promoting Leucovorin as a treatment for autism.
6:27
SPEAKER_03: The FDA does not agree, saying that there is insufficient evidence to support that use.
6:31
SPEAKER_03: Also, a lot of other groups disagree.
6:36
SPEAKER_03: So reporting from MedPage today,
6:38
SPEAKER_03: Meadow Biosciences,
6:39
SPEAKER_03: now called Meadow Health,
6:40
SPEAKER_03: launched in April and described itself as
6:42
SPEAKER_03: the first national telehealth platform dedicated to leukovorin care for children
6:45
SPEAKER_03: with autism.
6:47
SPEAKER_03: And it says it provides clinician-guided care through custom compounded medications
6:51
SPEAKER_03: when prescribed, delivered to the patient's door.
6:53
SPEAKER_03: Art Kaplan, PhD,
6:55
SPEAKER_03: Professor Emeritus of Medical Ethics at NYU Grossman School
6:58
SPEAKER_03: of Medicine has concerns.
7:01
SPEAKER_03: He said there's no real evidence that leukovorin is helpful for patients with autism.
7:04
SPEAKER_03: There are many people who are being appointed by the Trump administration
7:07
SPEAKER_03: who have connections to alternative medicine and fringe remedies in terms
7:11
SPEAKER_03: of owning companies or promoting products,
7:14
SPEAKER_03: which raise a lot of red flags, Kaplan said.
7:16
SPEAKER_03: And so now he's in charge of this interagency setup that they have.
7:22
SPEAKER_03: Seems bad.
7:24
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
7:24
SPEAKER_03: Seems bad.
7:26
SPEAKER_03: You know, so not all good news today.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: Like if conflicts of interest mattered,
7:33
SPEAKER_02: like this would be a non-starter right from the beginning.
7:36
SPEAKER_02: But this is, I mean, this is ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine all over again, but it's worse.
7:42
SPEAKER_02: And it's the same,
7:43
SPEAKER_02: it's worse in the same way that everything RFK Jr.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: does to promote,
7:48
SPEAKER_02: you know,
7:49
SPEAKER_02: false views of his own about autism,
7:51
SPEAKER_02: is it is preying on families that are in some cases extremely desperate
7:55
SPEAKER_02: for something, for anything that can help them and help their kids.
7:59
SPEAKER_02: And I get it.
8:00
SPEAKER_02: You're a parent.
8:01
SPEAKER_02: You get it.
8:01
SPEAKER_02: If your kid had a condition where you wanted help and there was not any treatment
8:07
SPEAKER_02: that was known to specifically help and you had people coming along saying,
8:11
SPEAKER_02: well, hey, we got this fancy drug over here.
8:13
SPEAKER_02: This is going to do it for you.
8:15
SPEAKER_02: Of course, you're going to try to do that and you're going to try to help your kid.
8:18
SPEAKER_02: But it's just based on bullshit and people are profiting off of it.
8:22
SPEAKER_02: It's the grift.
8:22
SPEAKER_02: Just like you said, the griftiest grifters.
8:24
SPEAKER_02: It's really sad that they keep doing it to these families.
8:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
8:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
8:29
SPEAKER_03: I, you know,
8:30
SPEAKER_03: there's like even a version of the world where someone who really cares about
8:34
SPEAKER_03: an issue becomes a subject matter expert,
8:37
SPEAKER_03: creates a company,
8:39
SPEAKER_03: then at some point like ends up in the regulatory side and there's some divestment
8:43
SPEAKER_03: or something that makes it so there's not like obvious
8:46
SPEAKER_03: and Like bright neon conflicts of interest.
8:50
SPEAKER_03: Like there's like a version of the world,
8:52
SPEAKER_03: but when it's nonsense and it's all like in the service of this non,
8:57
SPEAKER_03: this tilting at windmills quest of RFK's very specific things that he cares about.
9:04
SPEAKER_03: It's just so, it's gross like three ways.
9:07
SPEAKER_03: It's really incredible.
9:09
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you will never convince me that RFK Jr.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: actually cares about kids with autism or their families.
9:14
SPEAKER_02: You'll just never convince me.
9:17
SPEAKER_02: It is always in service to him promoting an agenda and maintaining this coalition.
9:22
SPEAKER_02: And it's just sick.
9:24
SPEAKER_02: He should be ashamed of himself.
9:25
SPEAKER_02: And this is another example.
9:27
SPEAKER_02: Put it on the list.
9:29
SPEAKER_03: I do not think Robert Kennedy Jr. is able to do shame.
9:33
SPEAKER_03: That doesn't seem like it.
9:34
SPEAKER_02: There you go.
9:34
SPEAKER_02: Nor empathy.
9:36
SPEAKER_02: Empathy and shame are not a part of his makeup.
9:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:42
SPEAKER_03: Well, speaking of that,
9:43
SPEAKER_03: RFK has been,
9:44
SPEAKER_03: this is the next headline, RFK Jr.
9:46
SPEAKER_03: has been looting the Office of Minority Health for $12 million
9:49
SPEAKER_03: to help cover his security costs.
9:51
SPEAKER_03: This is from reporting from the Washington Sun.
9:53
SPEAKER_03: Earlier this month,
9:54
SPEAKER_03: HHS canceled Office of Minority Health Infant Mortality,
9:58
SPEAKER_03: cancer screenings,
10:00
SPEAKER_03: and the postpartum home visit grants to focus on sperm counts
10:03
SPEAKER_03: and erectile dysfunction, according to reporting by the Washington Sun.
10:07
SPEAKER_03: The Trump administration unsuccessfully tried to shut down the Office
10:10
SPEAKER_03: of Minority Health last year.
10:12
SPEAKER_03: Now we learn,
10:13
SPEAKER_03: so that's like all in the past,
10:15
SPEAKER_03: but the new headline is that RFK Jr.
10:17
SPEAKER_03: has raided their coffers for $12 million to pay for his exorbitant costs
10:21
SPEAKER_03: of his security detail, according to exclusive reporting by The Wall Street Journal.
10:25
SPEAKER_03: The chairs of the Congressional Tri-Caucous,
10:27
SPEAKER_03: which includes Asian Pacific American Caucus,
10:29
SPEAKER_03: Hispanic Caucus,
10:29
SPEAKER_03: and Black Caucus, released a joint statement saying Let's not mince words.
10:33
SPEAKER_03: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. took money from babies to beef off his entourage.
10:37
SPEAKER_03: Kennedy has been the most incompetent,
10:38
SPEAKER_03: irresponsible, not a touch secretary to ever hold the office.
10:41
SPEAKER_03: We agree.
10:42
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
10:44
SPEAKER_03: We agree with the Tri-Caucus.
10:46
SPEAKER_03: And good, plain language statement from the Tri-Caucus.
10:49
SPEAKER_03: Kudos to who's ever doing the writing over there.
10:53
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, and Kennedy, he's a Kennedy.
10:56
SPEAKER_03: Like, personal security is a real concern.
11:00
SPEAKER_03: I suspect.
11:01
SPEAKER_03: I'm not going to like poo-poo that.
11:03
SPEAKER_03: But $12 million directly out of, you know, go get an appropriation for that.
11:07
SPEAKER_03: Go have that allocated.
11:10
SPEAKER_03: Don't go rob the Office of Minority Health.
11:15
SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it's wild.
11:17
SPEAKER_03: What do you think, Rob?
11:18
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean,
11:19
SPEAKER_02: so health disparities among minorities is such a critical piece
11:23
SPEAKER_02: of what HHS should be doing, right?
11:26
SPEAKER_02: Kind of eliminating these disparities, bringing them down, right?
11:29
SPEAKER_02: You know, life expectancy for black men.
11:33
SPEAKER_02: Right?
11:36
SPEAKER_02: Infant mortality is worse among minority groups.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: Maternal mortality is three to four times that in Black women.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: And it just keeps on going, right?
11:46
SPEAKER_02: All the legacies of our past.
11:48
SPEAKER_02: And this specific department is there to address these disparities and try
11:56
SPEAKER_02: to make some ground on kind of closing those gaps.
12:00
SPEAKER_02: And the fact that this guy,
12:01
SPEAKER_02: and I like how they put it,
12:02
SPEAKER_02: to beef up his entourage, fine, yes, maybe he needs security.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: I get it.
12:05
SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's great.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
12:07
SPEAKER_03: But I mean,
12:09
SPEAKER_03: just for folks who haven't been tracking what he's been up to,
12:12
SPEAKER_03: It's not like a little expansion of a security detail.
12:15
SPEAKER_03: He's taking military jets.
12:17
SPEAKER_03: There's no nation state after him.
12:20
SPEAKER_03: It's not like a country is coming after Robert Kennedy Jr., the health secretary.
12:26
SPEAKER_03: So it's an extraordinary amount of resources being devoted to this guy's True, yeah.
12:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean, something tells me you could take a couple million from the ballroom,
12:35
SPEAKER_02: a couple million from the drone port,
12:38
SPEAKER_02: you know,
12:39
SPEAKER_02: arc to Trump, and dedicate that to protecting the secretary if he needs that.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: You don't need to take it away from babies and from minorities.
12:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
12:47
SPEAKER_03: That, yep, stop looting it.
12:51
SPEAKER_03: Robert Kennedy, we're going to yell at you for other different things today.
12:53
SPEAKER_03: Stop, stop it.
12:55
SPEAKER_03: Update on the ongoing measles coverage that we've been doing out of what the CDC and
12:59
SPEAKER_03: the state's been up to and the fighting that's been happening
13:01
SPEAKER_03: between Robert Kennedy Jr. and Josh Shapiro.
13:03
SPEAKER_03: So the CDC has finally admitted there have been deaths from measles.
13:07
SPEAKER_03: They're just not necessarily updating their website with all of them.
13:11
SPEAKER_03: With several measles-related deaths in Pennsylvania this year,
13:13
SPEAKER_03: the CDC has been reluctant to admit any of them However,
13:17
SPEAKER_03: this past week,
13:18
SPEAKER_03: they finally changed the number of 2026 deaths from zero with an asterisk to two
13:24
SPEAKER_03: with an asterisk.
13:26
SPEAKER_03: There have actually been four deaths in Pennsylvania.
13:29
SPEAKER_03: CDC sometimes does lag, but this is a lot of lag.
13:32
SPEAKER_03: The state has had over 900 cases this year.
13:35
SPEAKER_03: Meanwhile, NBC News reports that there are babies in Pennsylvania now being born with measles.
13:40
SPEAKER_03: At least six babies in Pennsylvania have been born infected with measles,
13:43
SPEAKER_02: with two so sick that they had to be admitted to intensive care.
13:46
SPEAKER_03: The CDC sort of being a zombie and not functioning the right way or being a tool
13:52
SPEAKER_03: of propaganda aside, the measles outbreak, sad news, man.
13:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, what do you think?
13:59
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, to say that sometimes they lag, yes, that is true, right?
14:04
SPEAKER_02: With explosive diarrhea over the summer, they lag because there were tens of thousands of cases.
14:08
SPEAKER_02: They were just coming by the hundreds and the thousands out of states.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: So yes, we give them a little bit of leeway there.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: When you're talking like two deaths or four deaths,
14:17
SPEAKER_02: widely reported deaths, deaths reported from the states, right?
14:20
SPEAKER_02: And under their always done historic reporting,
14:24
SPEAKER_02: they would take those deaths reported from the state and
14:26
SPEAKER_02: that would be what was reflected.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: They're using a different system now that isn't intended to report deaths
14:32
SPEAKER_02: in real time from their specific causes of death.
14:35
SPEAKER_02: And they're using that Seemingly, so they can drag their feet, right?
14:39
SPEAKER_02: So RFK Jr.
14:39
SPEAKER_02: can get into little spats with Governor Shapiro and have little political fights out
14:45
SPEAKER_02: on Twitter about these deaths rather than actually focusing on doing something
14:48
SPEAKER_02: about this rapidly increasing media.
14:52
SPEAKER_02: Measles outbreak that is taking people's lives.
14:54
SPEAKER_02: The idea that kids are being born with measles in the numbers that they're talking
14:57
SPEAKER_02: about, I mean, it is genuinely a devastating disease, particularly in infants.
15:03
SPEAKER_02: They have no immunity, right?
15:04
SPEAKER_02: Their immune systems are already unparalleled.
15:08
SPEAKER_02: Now you're giving them this disease that can get into their lungs,
15:10
SPEAKER_02: that can get into their brain,
15:12
SPEAKER_02: that makes their immune system less able to fight other infections in
15:15
SPEAKER_02: an already at-risk group of kids.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: It's terrible.
15:19
SPEAKER_02: And again,
15:19
SPEAKER_02: that they're spending their energy on delaying cases reported instead
15:24
SPEAKER_02: of actually trying to do something about this, criminal, criminal.
15:28
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
15:30
SPEAKER_03: I think when this is all over,
15:32
SPEAKER_03: when it comes to an end,
15:34
SPEAKER_03: And people go back and they have to look at,
15:36
SPEAKER_03: you know, they sort of assess the wreckage and write the history of it all.
15:43
SPEAKER_03: There's this moment when doge happens that obviously,
15:47
SPEAKER_03: and possibly the end of USAID will be like the biggest body count and like
15:52
SPEAKER_03: the most horrifying outcome of the whole political project.
15:56
SPEAKER_03: But as a matter of like the institutions of the United States of America,
16:01
SPEAKER_03: you had like a really big attack Right out of the gate from Elon Musk
16:05
SPEAKER_03: and his merry band of young weirdos.
16:08
SPEAKER_03: But then that kind of came to an end and the attack stopped.
16:12
SPEAKER_03: But the CDC is different because Kennedy has just sat on top of it, grinding away.
16:18
SPEAKER_03: And there's been good reporting that he's actually had a lot of his lieutenants
16:22
SPEAKER_03: and things have taken on key roles.
16:25
SPEAKER_03: And there'll be certain departments where he will They didn't lay off
16:29
SPEAKER_03: the whole department,
16:30
SPEAKER_03: but they decapitated the specialists at the top of the department.
16:33
SPEAKER_03: And so there's not like strategic guidance in some places,
16:36
SPEAKER_03: even though there's still a bunch of human beings that are still working there.
16:39
SPEAKER_03: And so you kind of have them grinding away at the institution.
16:43
SPEAKER_03: It just seems like it's going to be a lot.
16:46
SPEAKER_03: And it's one of the more complicated institutions.
16:48
SPEAKER_03: So there's just going to be a lot more wreckage to
16:54
SPEAKER_03: A lot more to put back together when it's all done.
16:57
SPEAKER_03: And maybe put it back together different.
16:59
SPEAKER_03: But yeah,
17:01
SPEAKER_03: the sustained assault feels like chickens are coming home to roast with
17:04
SPEAKER_03: the measles outbreak.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: I'd love to get a historian's take.
17:07
SPEAKER_02: I'm not, right?
17:07
SPEAKER_02: I was a science major and certainly a student of history
17:11
SPEAKER_02: as any person who's just interested in it.
17:13
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if ever has there been a time that we can see in real time The wreckage
17:18
SPEAKER_02: that is happening, right?
17:19
SPEAKER_02: We're going to have to clean up the mess.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: But we don't have to spend a lot of time reflecting on what these guys did.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: It is just happening right in front of us.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: We're seeing the damage done.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: We heard from Dimitri Deskalakis,
17:30
SPEAKER_02: from Deb Haurie, who left the CDC when Susan Minaras was fired back last year.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: We heard from them how they're putting these political folks,
17:38
SPEAKER_02: you know, as the sort of ultimate decision maker of how they get messaging out.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: Like, we know that the current CDC director,
17:45
SPEAKER_02: she said, well,
17:45
SPEAKER_02: we have conversations behind the scenes,
17:47
SPEAKER_02: but I won't, you know, oppose them in public, right?
17:49
SPEAKER_02: That isn't how we do the chain of command.
17:51
SPEAKER_02: It's like, well,
17:52
SPEAKER_02: dear God,
17:52
SPEAKER_02: if this guy's doing things that potentially are killing people,
17:56
SPEAKER_02: please stand up and do it in public, you know?
17:57
SPEAKER_02: And now we have Heidi Overton from her hearing who couldn't acknowledge
18:01
SPEAKER_02: the president could be wrong.
18:02
SPEAKER_02: I mean, like, the people that they're putting in these places are just...
18:06
SPEAKER_02: They're just so, I don't know, just weak.
18:10
SPEAKER_02: And, you know,
18:11
SPEAKER_02: even if they may have some good intentions or even qualifications,
18:14
SPEAKER_02: they get in the position and their absolute weakness and lack of ability to stand up
18:19
SPEAKER_02: to people like RFK Jr.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: and his lieutenants is just, you know, just incredible to watch happening before us.
18:26
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
18:27
SPEAKER_03: Our next topic is somewhere between good and bad news.
18:31
SPEAKER_03: I don't really know what credit news it is.
18:33
SPEAKER_03: But Maha leaders have issued an electoral threat to Trump and RFK Jr.
18:37
SPEAKER_03: So an array of leaders in the so-called Maha movement,
18:40
SPEAKER_03: leaders sent a hyperbole-filled open letter to Trump and RFK Jr.,
18:44
SPEAKER_03: outraged over their failure to stop the use of mRNA vaccines.
18:48
SPEAKER_03: The author issued a threat if the administration doesn't, quote, deliver on their policy goals.
18:53
SPEAKER_03: If you continue to ignore our central issue of removing the mRNA platform,
18:57
SPEAKER_03: the Maha and health freedom movements would withdraw their support of you.
19:01
SPEAKER_03: And you will face the political consequences.
19:04
SPEAKER_03: Health freedom voters can and will walk away if we continue to see inaction
19:08
SPEAKER_03: or condescending non-policy on our core issues.
19:11
SPEAKER_03: The letter was signed by 859 lead signatories and 1204 citizen signatories.
19:17
SPEAKER_03: Seems like the Maha Coalition fracturing continues.
19:20
SPEAKER_03: But they just had their big conference sponsored by United Health Group.
19:24
SPEAKER_03: So, you know, it may just be morphing into a corporate project.
19:30
SPEAKER_03: We're going to learn more about that in the interview.
19:32
SPEAKER_03: But I don't know, Rob.
19:34
SPEAKER_03: I'm not sure that all these people can speak for the Maha movement.
19:38
SPEAKER_03: I mean, when you do polling, so many people say they're in favor of Make America Healthy Again.
19:43
SPEAKER_03: But it is also a movement that seems to act on sort of nodes of influencers
19:48
SPEAKER_03: and You'll hear in the interview,
19:49
SPEAKER_03: a bunch of those influencers are actually just at the Maha conference.
19:52
SPEAKER_03: So I wonder what your thought is.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know what Maha is anymore, right?
19:57
SPEAKER_02: It was a nice little term coined by RFK Jr.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: when he decided to run for president in the summer of 2024.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: And I don't even know what it means.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: You almost just want to stop using it, right?
20:08
SPEAKER_02: Because it's such a misnomer.
20:10
SPEAKER_02: And it is such a weird coalition of people with different agendas.
20:14
SPEAKER_02: Like, how can they actually speak for these folks, right?
20:18
SPEAKER_02: One of our producers,
20:19
SPEAKER_02: Chris Savage, who has written for Paging America, who does that pretty much weekly.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: Like, I remember just him saying in a thing,
20:25
SPEAKER_02: it's amazing to watch a movement like this sort of unravel in real time right
20:30
SPEAKER_02: before our eyes.
20:30
SPEAKER_02: And it looks like it is, absolutely.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you've seen the videos and the pictures from this It is sparsely populated.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: It's not sad at all to watch, but it's pretty amazing to watch this thing go down
20:49
SPEAKER_02: in real time.
20:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
20:51
SPEAKER_03: I think that's probably a good segue to our interview because Carmen Pond
20:58
SPEAKER_03: from Politico went to the Maha conference and She's a reporter,
21:04
SPEAKER_03: not advocates like us,
21:05
SPEAKER_03: so it's a pretty sober assessment of what's happening,
21:08
SPEAKER_03: but it is also one in which she has a lot of empathy for the people who are on
21:13
SPEAKER_03: the receiving end of some of this stuff,
21:16
SPEAKER_03: but then also just did some really great reporting on what was going on
21:19
SPEAKER_03: at their main
21:20
SPEAKER_02: confab in DC.
21:22
SPEAKER_03: Why don't we go check that out now?
21:25
SPEAKER_03: We are joined by Carmen Pond today.
21:27
SPEAKER_03: She is a health reporter at Politico where she covers the Health and Human Services Department.
21:31
SPEAKER_03: She previously covered the changing world of global health,
21:33
SPEAKER_03: which is facing a funding crisis threatening to kill millions of people across
21:36
SPEAKER_03: the world.
21:37
SPEAKER_03: Carmen has also reported on substance use disorder policies in America as lawmakers
21:40
SPEAKER_03: and providers struggle to get more people into treatment and recovery.
21:43
SPEAKER_03: Carmen Pond, thank you so much.
21:44
SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Paging America.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Great being here.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for
21:47
SPEAKER_03: having me.
21:47
SPEAKER_03: There's sort of a strange event Or at least like an event
21:52
SPEAKER_03: that had some interesting events in Washington, D.C.
21:55
SPEAKER_03: Your reporter was covering the Maha Summit.
21:58
SPEAKER_03: But before we get into the Maha Summit,
22:00
SPEAKER_03: which I wanted to ask you about covering the Department of Health and Human Services
22:03
SPEAKER_03: for Politico.
22:05
SPEAKER_03: Prior to this moment, what's been the biggest challenge in covering HHS since RFK Jr. took over?
22:11
SPEAKER_03: Are you guys sort of experiencing the same challenges
22:13
SPEAKER_03: that White House reporters are experiencing with people being blocked?
22:17
SPEAKER_00: So we have not been sort of like blocked from going to HHS events.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: What is hard to do is to know in advance,
22:26
SPEAKER_00: you know,
22:27
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about a few days in advance where the secretary will be,
22:30
SPEAKER_00: particularly when he travels So we can have reporters go to the places
22:35
SPEAKER_00: where he travels.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: So we usually get maybe 24 or 48 hours notice,
22:41
SPEAKER_00: which makes it hard to put a reporter on a plane and send to that place.
22:46
SPEAKER_00: My understanding is that the main issue with this short notice is security concerns.
22:51
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, the health secretary has and has had longstanding security concerns.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: He has faced death threats when he was campaigning for president.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, he obviously has a history of assassination in his family.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: So that's the biggest struggle that we have encountered,
23:09
SPEAKER_00: particularly this year,
23:11
SPEAKER_00: because,
23:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
23:12
SPEAKER_00: he has been traveling the country and it's been hard to Be able to be there
23:17
SPEAKER_00: to cover his speeches whenever he goes and visits clinics and schools
23:23
SPEAKER_00: and things like that.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: I think the other challenge has been to really get the secretary to talk to us.
23:30
SPEAKER_00: He rarely does interviews with the mainstream media.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: I think he probably got on the phone once with the New York Times.
23:37
SPEAKER_00: He typically likes to speak on podcasts and to media that sort of like,
23:42
SPEAKER_00: you know, It's more aligned with his view on things and on healthcare.
23:47
SPEAKER_00: So that has been another big challenge.
23:49
SPEAKER_03: Right.
23:49
SPEAKER_03: We've seen a couple of the instances where he's done higher profile television hits.
23:54
SPEAKER_03: He's been very combative when he gets any sort of pushback.
23:56
SPEAKER_03: And that's probably unpleasant for all involved,
24:01
SPEAKER_00: I suspect.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Indeed.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: He went on CNN this summer and yes, that went viral.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
24:06
SPEAKER_03: So, okay.
24:07
SPEAKER_03: So to get into this event you attended, you're at the Maha Summit in Washington, D.C.
24:13
SPEAKER_03: Yesterday,
24:13
SPEAKER_03: but like a number of other major media outlets,
24:16
SPEAKER_03: Politico was not given press credentials to cover the event.
24:18
SPEAKER_03: One food writer who did get credentials tweeted that the press section was essentially empty.
24:24
SPEAKER_03: Could you tell us how would that process normally go?
24:26
SPEAKER_03: Or what would that process look like?
24:28
SPEAKER_03: Did they say, did you apply for them?
24:29
SPEAKER_03: And then they said, no, you can't have press credentials.
24:31
SPEAKER_03: Or what did that look like?
24:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so about a week and a half before the event,
24:35
SPEAKER_00: we received an email from a sort of like media agency telling us to apply
24:39
SPEAKER_00: for credentials.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: And me and another colleague from Politico applied a few days before the deadline.
24:45
SPEAKER_00: And then on Friday night,
24:47
SPEAKER_00: right after the deadline,
24:48
SPEAKER_00: we both received an email saying that our application to be there in person to cover
24:53
SPEAKER_00: the event has been Rejected because of a lack of space.
24:58
SPEAKER_00: And the media agency made it very clear that they were just communicating what
25:01
SPEAKER_00: the organizers had told them,
25:03
SPEAKER_00: probably a bit concerned that we would lash out of them and that this was
25:08
SPEAKER_00: the reason.
25:09
SPEAKER_00: So we did go to the event and we ended up just spending time in the lobby of
25:13
SPEAKER_00: the hotel where the event was happening.
25:15
SPEAKER_00: Fortunately,
25:16
SPEAKER_00: a lot of the people who were speaking or participating were sort of like coming in
25:19
SPEAKER_00: and out of the room through the hotel lobby or through the front of the hotel.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: So we could approach some of them and ask them questions.
25:25
SPEAKER_00: But indeed, we were not allowed inside the room.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: There were very few reporters, as you said, that were allowed inside the room.
25:32
SPEAKER_00: My understanding is that one mainstream media reporter who was allowed even got
25:37
SPEAKER_00: a minder that followed her around.
25:39
SPEAKER_00: Spooky.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the person was.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: They had restrictions of,
25:45
SPEAKER_00: you know,
25:46
SPEAKER_00: like there was basically the back of the room just looking at the pictures
25:49
SPEAKER_00: that other colleagues shared from inside.
25:52
SPEAKER_00: There was this section at the back of the room that was sort of like cordoned off.
25:55
SPEAKER_00: And my understanding is that they weren't really allowed to kind of like walk out
25:59
SPEAKER_00: of it and go and speak to as in these are speakers.
26:02
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, definitely challenging.
26:04
SPEAKER_00: And it didn't look like space was a problem from those pictures, as you said.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: But let me just put this into context.
26:10
SPEAKER_00: Last year when the first Maha Summit happened in November,
26:14
SPEAKER_00: we were no media or at least no mainstream media was allowed inside the room and
26:20
SPEAKER_00: the summit was not live streamed.
26:22
SPEAKER_00: This year it was live streamed so at least we can watch the conversations even
26:26
SPEAKER_00: if we were not in the room.
26:28
SPEAKER_00: Last year I think they live streamed it about a week after the event
26:31
SPEAKER_00: which made it harder to cover because obviously the event had already happened.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: You know,
26:35
SPEAKER_00: I would say there has been a higher level of transparency this year than in
26:39
SPEAKER_00: the previous year.
26:40
SPEAKER_03: One of the things in some of the coverage that I saw of of the Maha event
26:45
SPEAKER_03: and even some of the,
26:47
SPEAKER_03: you know,
26:47
SPEAKER_03: some of the folks in the Maha movement,
26:49
SPEAKER_03: leaders in the Maha movement were talking about this.
26:51
SPEAKER_03: So don't not just not just our perspective,
26:54
SPEAKER_03: who would we would have this perspective,
26:55
SPEAKER_03: but even the folks that are sort of dyed in the wool Maha.
27:00
SPEAKER_03: That there seemed to be just a lot more corporate influence in this event
27:04
SPEAKER_03: than you would expect from the popular conception of Maha.
27:07
SPEAKER_03: So there was really pricey sponsorships.
27:11
SPEAKER_03: Folks that were on display,
27:12
SPEAKER_03: we saw UnitedHealth Group,
27:14
SPEAKER_03: Evelyn's Health, Walmart, Anthropic, OpenAI, all in attendance.
27:18
SPEAKER_02: Is that a change from the
27:20
SPEAKER_03: years in the past?
27:21
SPEAKER_03: Did that surprise you?
27:23
SPEAKER_03: What was your takeaway from seeing the sort of entrance of corporate America into
27:27
SPEAKER_03: the Maha space?
27:28
SPEAKER_00: So they had corporate sponsors last year too.
27:31
SPEAKER_00: Some of them were smaller biotech last year, just from what I remember.
27:37
SPEAKER_00: I think this year,
27:38
SPEAKER_00: what was surprising to many people inside the movement,
27:41
SPEAKER_00: outside the Maha movement was
27:43
SPEAKER_00: that there were like these big corporations like Walmart,
27:46
SPEAKER_00: like the health insurance agencies, and obviously the big AI companies.
27:52
SPEAKER_00: One thing about the leaders of Maha is that they very often Criticize corporate influence.
27:58
SPEAKER_00: And they do say that this is one of the main reasons why,
28:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:02
SPEAKER_00: we have,
28:03
SPEAKER_00: according to them,
28:03
SPEAKER_00: unhealthy food in America and, you know, unhealthy vaccines and drugs.
28:09
SPEAKER_00: And yet,
28:09
SPEAKER_00: obviously,
28:09
SPEAKER_00: you see these corporations participating and,
28:12
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:12
SPEAKER_00: To be clear,
28:13
SPEAKER_00: there was no pharmaceutical company that sponsored or spoke to the event.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: So there are definitely,
28:18
SPEAKER_00: it seems like red lines for them,
28:20
SPEAKER_00: but there were big corporations and big companies that have been in the headlines,
28:24
SPEAKER_00: obviously like the AI companies sponsoring the event.
28:27
SPEAKER_00: And that has attracted criticism from people inside the movement.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: It has made it look to some like there's a corporate capture.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: One of the organizers, Tawny Lyons, sort of like addressed the criticism about two weeks ago.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: He said that it is a reasonable question to ask about this.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: But then he said that the media should scrutinize members of Congress the same way.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: So he didn't really say whether he thinks that This sponsorship have gone too far
28:57
SPEAKER_00: or are creating any sort of like kind of like perception of unpropriety.
29:01
SPEAKER_03: Sure.
29:02
SPEAKER_03: United Health Group was the one that actually really shocked me because I mean,
29:05
SPEAKER_03: it's like the largest health conglomerate in the United States.
29:08
SPEAKER_03: And them being sort of front and center in the billing here felt like
29:14
SPEAKER_03: a category difference than what we normally see from Maha.
29:18
SPEAKER_03: The other groups, the artificial intelligence was pretty front and center, wasn't it?
29:23
SPEAKER_03: So during a fireside chat, RFK Jr. told J.D.
29:25
SPEAKER_03: Vance that AI can give you a second opinion that is much better informed
29:29
SPEAKER_03: than any doctor in the country.
29:30
SPEAKER_03: We have a couple of physicians that listen to this.
29:32
SPEAKER_03: I'm sure they'll be a little crabby about that one.
29:35
SPEAKER_03: And that it will free us from medical tyranny.
29:38
SPEAKER_03: Can we see the tape on that one?
29:41
SPEAKER_01: If somebody tells you...
29:43
SPEAKER_01: Mask work, trust the experts, AI may tell you otherwise.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: If somebody tells you social distancing works, trust the experts.
29:52
SPEAKER_01: AI may correct that.
29:54
SPEAKER_01: And if somebody tells you that a vaccine will prevent transmission and infection,
29:59
SPEAKER_01: oh,
29:59
SPEAKER_01: you need to take it to protect your grandmother,
30:01
SPEAKER_01: AI may say it actually doesn't do that.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: So it really has the capacity to dominate us, to free us from medical tyranny.
30:10
SPEAKER_03: How prevalent was this sentiment or sort of the AI talk in the conference itself?
30:16
SPEAKER_00: So there were two other sessions that focused on AI.
30:19
SPEAKER_00: They were very much focused on,
30:20
SPEAKER_00: you know,
30:21
SPEAKER_00: the potential of AI in healthcare,
30:22
SPEAKER_00: the potential in And drug discovery and making things more efficient,
30:28
SPEAKER_00: easier to run, easier to do drug discovery.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: And it was in a way surprising to some of us because the conversation between
30:37
SPEAKER_00: the vice president and the health secretary was the last one of the event
30:42
SPEAKER_00: and they were just coming off That meeting that President Donald Trump had
30:46
SPEAKER_00: with leaders of AI companies and they mentioned that they were a bit late because
30:51
SPEAKER_00: of it.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: So they started talking about AI, which I think many people didn't necessarily expect.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: The conversation was built by the organizers as being about the achievements of
31:00
SPEAKER_00: the Maha movement so far and the future of the Maha movement.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: And there was sort of like barely any mention of that.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: There was a lot of talk,
31:08
SPEAKER_00: you know,
31:08
SPEAKER_00: the secretary as we so started with You know,
31:11
SPEAKER_00: the upsides of technology and President J.D.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Vance,
31:15
SPEAKER_00: he did say that he thinks AI companies should be held accountable if the tools
31:20
SPEAKER_00: that they create cause any harms to people.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: But that he did say that the conversation,
31:26
SPEAKER_00: according to him,
31:27
SPEAKER_00: has been too dominated by doomsayers that say,
31:30
SPEAKER_00: you know, AI is going to become this robot, Terminator 2.
31:34
SPEAKER_00: He did say Terminator 2.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: That is going to kill us all and that people are ignoring the upsides of AI because of that.
31:42
SPEAKER_00: And in healthcare, he basically echoed.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: The health secretary saying that, you know, you can get a second opinion.
31:47
SPEAKER_00: You know,
31:48
SPEAKER_00: you don't have to rely on experts that,
31:49
SPEAKER_00: you know, according to him and the secretary might not be truthful to you.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: And then you would have all this all this like amount of knowledge at your fingertips.
31:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
31:59
SPEAKER_03: Carmen, I in preparation for this,
32:01
SPEAKER_03: I tried to get Claude to say something positive about the anti-vax movement,
32:05
SPEAKER_03: and it's really hard to get it to do that.
32:08
SPEAKER_03: It is.
32:09
SPEAKER_03: I would say that the way RFK Jr.
32:12
SPEAKER_03: characterized the second opinion you can get at least
32:15
SPEAKER_03: on Anthropics platform is not correct,
32:18
SPEAKER_02: at least with a little effort I put into
32:20
SPEAKER_03: it.
32:21
SPEAKER_03: That's an interesting experiment.
32:22
SPEAKER_03: I have not tried it, but yeah.
32:24
SPEAKER_03: So we try to do a job here of tracking some of the influencers and some of
32:29
SPEAKER_03: the stranger or fringer characters in the Maha influencer space.
32:36
SPEAKER_03: How prevalent were they at the conference,
32:37
SPEAKER_03: like the glyphosate girl or food babe or these folks that have these large followers
32:42
SPEAKER_03: that are like nodes inside the Maha movement?
32:45
SPEAKER_03: Did the corporate aspect push those folks out or were they all kind
32:48
SPEAKER_03: of joined together because they make strange bedfellows in a lot of ways?
32:52
SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
32:53
SPEAKER_00: So I did not see Kelly Ryerson, the glyphosate girl.
32:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure if she was there, since obviously we couldn't be in the room.
33:00
SPEAKER_00: But I did see Vani Hari, the food babe, and she was there.
33:03
SPEAKER_00: And she was there last year, too.
33:05
SPEAKER_00: Last year, she was the speaker.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: So a lot of them were there.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: Gary Berka,
33:09
SPEAKER_00: who is also an influencer,
33:11
SPEAKER_00: a biologist who talks about longevity and things like that.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: He moderated an event.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: So I would say there was a good representation of sort of like the Maha influencers
33:20
SPEAKER_00: in the program and also in the room.
33:22
SPEAKER_00: From what we could see from the people coming in and out.
33:25
SPEAKER_03: Fascinating.
33:25
SPEAKER_03: It's a coalition that for those of us who've worked in other coalitions,
33:30
SPEAKER_03: it's like a coalition that hurts my mind to think about how it all fits together.
33:35
SPEAKER_03: But that's interesting.
33:36
SPEAKER_03: One of the panelists was comedian and accused rapist Russell Brand interviewing Dr. Oz.
33:42
SPEAKER_03: And then, I mean, you have sort of strange characters like Mike Tyson.
33:47
SPEAKER_03: And some of these folks that it's kind of hard to understand how they fit into it,
33:52
SPEAKER_03: but where does Russell Brand come out?
33:54
SPEAKER_03: Like, why is that guy?
33:55
SPEAKER_03: This is the one I really couldn't understand why they would do that.
33:59
SPEAKER_03: And especially if Dr.
34:00
SPEAKER_03: Oz is gonna continue to have a leadership role,
34:02
SPEAKER_03: it's sort of like placing him next to this credibly accused figure.
34:07
SPEAKER_03: I wonder if you have any thoughts on that, how he fits into the puzzle.
34:11
SPEAKER_00: There's a history there for sure.
34:13
SPEAKER_00: So Russell Brand is definitely one of the,
34:15
SPEAKER_00: you know, if you want one of those MAHA influencers that you talked about.
34:19
SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
34:20
SPEAKER_00: he's an actor and a comedian,
34:21
SPEAKER_00: so he's well known in the United States and in the United Kingdom.
34:26
SPEAKER_00: He often talks on this weekly call of MAHA action.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: It's one of the groups that support Secretary Kennedy.
34:34
SPEAKER_00: It's an advocacy group led by Tony Lyons,
34:36
SPEAKER_00: who was, you know, one of the main organizers of the event.
34:40
SPEAKER_00: And Tony Lyons has often defended him and said he believes in his innocence.
34:45
SPEAKER_00: Obviously,
34:46
SPEAKER_00: a lot of people in the Maha movement have said the same thing,
34:49
SPEAKER_00: that he's innocent until proven guilty and he should not be charged in the court
34:54
SPEAKER_00: of public opinion.
34:56
SPEAKER_00: He is very close to Maha.
34:59
SPEAKER_00: During the pandemic,
35:01
SPEAKER_00: he opposed Vaccination, vaccine mandates, both in the UK and the United States.
35:07
SPEAKER_00: And he has often talked about how actually Dr. Oz,
35:11
SPEAKER_00: when Russell Brand was expecting a baby,
35:15
SPEAKER_00: and I think he even mentioned it yesterday,
35:18
SPEAKER_00: the doctors found out before the baby was born that he would have a condition
35:23
SPEAKER_00: that actually Dr.
35:24
SPEAKER_00: Oz helped Russell Brand and his wife After she gave birth to get a doctor and
35:32
SPEAKER_00: the baby had a surgery and he's doing well now.
35:35
SPEAKER_00: So he has a personal connection to Dr.
35:38
SPEAKER_00: Oz and he has often sort of praised and thanked him for his support through
35:43
SPEAKER_00: that pretty tough experience.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: That makes more sense now.
35:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
35:47
SPEAKER_03: Maybe just to wrap up here, Carmen,
35:49
SPEAKER_03: because you cover these folks and you cover HHS so thoroughly and know so much
35:54
SPEAKER_03: about it, I think a lot of us are are interested in what happens after the midterms.
36:00
SPEAKER_03: We've obviously heard rumors that Kennedy might go.
36:03
SPEAKER_03: We've heard rumors Oz might replace Kennedy.
36:05
SPEAKER_03: There's lots of speculation about how the movement might be coming apart at
36:10
SPEAKER_03: the seams, like we might be having coalitional fracture.
36:13
SPEAKER_03: And I'm wondering if you have any thoughts,
36:17
SPEAKER_03: either gossip or speculation about what comes after election day.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: We hear the exact same sort of like rumor and speculation.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: What is hard is to really have like,
36:29
SPEAKER_00: you know, really firsthand information about what's going to happen.
36:33
SPEAKER_00: We know that,
36:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:35
SPEAKER_00: Maha Action,
36:36
SPEAKER_00: Tony Lyons,
36:38
SPEAKER_00: every time he tries to rally people to vote Republicans because he says
36:42
SPEAKER_00: if Democrats win a majority in at least one of the chambers,
36:45
SPEAKER_00: they're going to drag RFK in front of You know,
36:48
SPEAKER_00: long congressional hearings just to berate him under the guise of oversight
36:52
SPEAKER_00: and they're going to derail his agenda.
36:55
SPEAKER_00: There is sort of like this expectation of speculation that,
36:58
SPEAKER_00: you know,
36:59
SPEAKER_00: he might just resign if that happens because then,
37:02
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:03
SPEAKER_00: He would be derailed and he would have to go in front of congressional hearings
37:07
SPEAKER_00: that can be very uncomfortable.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: I've sat in some of them where people have raised their voice at him
37:13
SPEAKER_00: and asked him questions, but not necessarily giving him the opportunity to answer.
37:17
SPEAKER_00: And some of them have been really tense.
37:20
SPEAKER_00: So I'm sure that not too many people will want to see a repeat of that,
37:23
SPEAKER_00: that are allies of the health secretary.
37:26
SPEAKER_00: Then obviously,
37:27
SPEAKER_00: if Republicans maintain their majority,
37:29
SPEAKER_00: one of the questions will be whether indeed like the Maha movement
37:37
SPEAKER_00: He's been campaigning for the last few months quite intensively.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, not campaigning to be fair,
37:41
SPEAKER_00: but he's been barnstorming the country in support of GOP candidates and sort
37:45
SPEAKER_00: of like promoting the agenda.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: So the question then will be whether,
37:49
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:49
SPEAKER_00: how helpful he was and,
37:51
SPEAKER_00: you know, and then we might see potentially a continuation of the status quo.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: But it's a bit hard to tell at this point exactly what's going to happen from sort
37:59
SPEAKER_00: of like firsthand verified information.
38:01
SPEAKER_03: It sure looks like campaigning for those of us who are reading and watching it.
38:04
SPEAKER_03: I know that they are making a legal distinction that is like a distinction
38:09
SPEAKER_03: without much of a difference.
38:12
SPEAKER_03: Carmen, anything else you want to share our audience before we go?
38:16
SPEAKER_00: One thing that I wanted to say that I feel,
38:18
SPEAKER_00: you know, just,
38:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:20
SPEAKER_00: it's been a learning journey for me to covering the health secretary
38:23
SPEAKER_00: and his movement.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: And one thing that I find that many of the events that I go to that are put on
38:31
SPEAKER_00: by his supporters,
38:31
SPEAKER_00: where a lot of supporters are,
38:34
SPEAKER_00: is that a lot of the people who support him are people who Are grieved in some way
38:38
SPEAKER_00: or the other.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: There are people who have kids with autism at home who do believe,
38:43
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:43
SPEAKER_00: for better or worse, that vaccines are linked to that condition for the child.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: There are people who have had tough,
38:51
SPEAKER_00: you know,
38:51
SPEAKER_00: health issues where they felt like the health system hasn't helped them
38:55
SPEAKER_00: or has worked against them.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: And they feel they've been silenced and derided and not listened to by
39:02
SPEAKER_00: the mainstream healthcare system, the mainstream media.
39:05
SPEAKER_00: So now they feel like RFK Jr. has given them a voice.
39:10
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of,
39:11
SPEAKER_00: they are driven by passion,
39:12
SPEAKER_00: some of them by grief,
39:13
SPEAKER_00: obviously that puts them into this To this fight that they believe is for the better
39:18
SPEAKER_00: of the country.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: So I think like one of the things that,
39:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
39:22
SPEAKER_00: I want people when I report about RFK Jr.
39:24
SPEAKER_00: and his his movement is to understand,
39:27
SPEAKER_00: you know, who the people are and, you know, at times to kind of like
39:32
SPEAKER_00: Everyone has a story.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: Everyone has gotten to that point because of something that happened in their lives.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: So I always want people to keep that in mind when they are trying to understand
39:42
SPEAKER_00: the movement and they're trying to understand RFK Jr.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: and his position and his place in the current government.
39:50
SPEAKER_03: Great.
39:51
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
39:51
SPEAKER_03: Carmen Pond joining us from Capitol Hill.
39:55
SPEAKER_03: This is a great conversation.
39:56
SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for coming on Paging America.
39:58
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: It was great talking to you.
40:02
SPEAKER_02: I mean, thanks for that, Miles.
40:03
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that was a great interview.
40:05
SPEAKER_02: Appreciate the conversation.
40:07
SPEAKER_02: And like, yeah,
40:08
SPEAKER_02: it's good to hear from someone on the ground,
40:10
SPEAKER_02: like what the hell's going on in these spaces?
40:12
SPEAKER_02: I think it's important for people who pay attention to what we're up to, to hear that as well.
40:16
SPEAKER_03: For those sticking around,
40:17
SPEAKER_03: just as a reminder,
40:19
SPEAKER_03: if you want to take action on the Heidi Overton nomination,
40:23
SPEAKER_03: if you're a medical professional, check out the letter in the show notes.
40:27
SPEAKER_03: There's other things to do there.
40:28
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40:32
SPEAKER_03: We're particularly pushing our YouTube subscribers.
40:35
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40:38
SPEAKER_03: And why don't I read us out?
40:40
SPEAKER_03: Paging America,
40:41
SPEAKER_03: the Situation Womb,
40:42
SPEAKER_03: and all of our on-call segments this week were produced by Peter Ogburn
40:45
SPEAKER_03: and Chris Savage.
40:46
SPEAKER_03: All shows were edited by Peter Ogburn and April Stewie.
40:48
SPEAKER_03: Our music is by Annette Somerset, Doomflower Productions.
40:50
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40:52
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40:53
SPEAKER_03: Spotify, Apple, Podcasts, or wherever you listen.
40:56
SPEAKER_03: And one last reminder, physicians and medical professionals, your voice matters.
41:01
SPEAKER_03: If you want to become a member of the Committee to Protect Health Care,
41:04
SPEAKER_03: go to www.committee.org for more.
41:07
SPEAKER_03: Great chat.
41:08
SPEAKER_02: See you in the week.
41:10
SPEAKER_02: Bye.