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Naked Sports: Caitlin Clark vs Angel Reese · The Breakfast Club

0:06
Speaker 1: For me, the year twenty twenty presents in alchemy a
0:08
Speaker 1: highlights and the lights. The pandemic and the ensuing shutdown
0:12
Speaker 1: of the country were alarming, yet simultaneously there was this
0:16
Speaker 1: racial renaissance. It prompted this nation to confront its ugly
0:20
Speaker 1: history of white versus black. And while the world was
0:24
Speaker 1: working to find its way back to normal, there were
0:27
Speaker 1: two young women who had graduated high school that very year,
0:30
Speaker 1: preparing to embark on their collegiate and athletic careers. Both
0:34
Speaker 1: highly touted players from two different backgrounds, two different playing styles,
0:38
Speaker 1: but arguably the same agenda to be the best. Because
0:42
Speaker 1: of COVID and different restrictions across the country, and if
0:45
Speaker 1: we're honest, lack of interest, the world wasn't focused on
0:48
Speaker 1: women's college basketball, So for the Masses, Caitlin Clark and
0:52
Speaker 1: Angel Reese seemingly became famous overnight. However, as we find
0:58
Speaker 1: out in this series, Kitlyn Clark and Angel Reese were
1:01
Speaker 1: super novas in the making. The Masses were just late
1:04
Speaker 1: to the discovery. Clark and Reese clearly represent so much
1:08
Speaker 1: more than basketball. They represent resilience, possibility, and resistance. There
1:13
Speaker 1: I say, their only court rivalry is what we all
1:16
Speaker 1: needed to push this country out of archaic archetypes that
1:19
Speaker 1: surround the game and filter the way we see women's
1:22
Speaker 1: sports in general. Clark and Reese have expanded the horizons
1:26
Speaker 1: of the game in ways that my humble mind never envisioned.
1:30
Speaker 1: So how did we reach this point? Allow me to
1:34
Speaker 1: tell you a story.
1:39
Speaker 2: The Superman needed Lex Luthor, the Batman needed the Joker.
1:43
Speaker 2: And I don't mean to put Angel Rees in some
1:45
Speaker 2: kind of villain this role because I don't consider her
1:47
Speaker 2: a villain.
1:48
Speaker 3: But I think every great player needs a foil.
1:50
Speaker 4: The reason why we watching women's basketball is not.
1:52
Speaker 3: Just because of one person.
1:53
Speaker 4: It's because of me too.
1:54
Speaker 5: And you know, I don't think there should be any
1:55
Speaker 5: criticism for what she did. I honestly didn't see it
1:58
Speaker 5: when the game was going on.
1:59
Speaker 6: But the story Rory became more compelling, and the desire
2:02
Speaker 6: to watch and talk about it became more compelling when
2:04
Speaker 6: she had a foil. Angel won a national championship. She
2:08
Speaker 6: has four million plus followers. She's at the met Galop
2:11
Speaker 6: Sizza and Meg thee Stallion want to come stick courtside
2:13
Speaker 6: and watch.
2:14
Speaker 4: Her naked sports.
2:15
Speaker 1: The Making of a Rivalry A six episode docu series
2:18
Speaker 1: that explores the media frenzy surrounding two super novas and
2:21
Speaker 1: Kitlin Clark and Angel Reese. I'm your host, Carrie Champion,
2:25
Speaker 1: and welcome to the making of a rivalry.
2:30
Speaker 2: Typically, what it takes is for there to be a rivalry,
2:34
Speaker 2: a moment, a star player that comes along that makes
2:38
Speaker 2: us think differently about the game and gets everybody sort
2:41
Speaker 2: of galvanized behind either a sport, a player, a moment.
2:45
Speaker 3: It's always something.
2:47
Speaker 2: You know, there's been watershed moments in like Major League Baseball.
2:50
Speaker 2: You could say when integration occurred. You could say when
2:53
Speaker 2: Hank Aaron broke bay Brews home run record.
2:56
Speaker 6: I'll run Champion at all time, a Henri era.
3:00
Speaker 2: There's been these moments that you can just recall off
3:03
Speaker 2: the top of your head that you felt like the
3:05
Speaker 2: sport itself was ascending to a higher place. And so
3:08
Speaker 2: we've been able to experience that.
3:11
Speaker 1: Jamel Hill covered women's basketball in the beginning of her career,
3:15
Speaker 1: and I call her a grizzly media veteran, and she
3:18
Speaker 1: says that this moment in women's basketball has been building.
3:23
Speaker 1: But Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, well, those two they
3:26
Speaker 1: set off this explosion of interest.
3:29
Speaker 2: This moment in women's basketball is shape shifting.
3:33
Speaker 3: Yeah.
3:33
Speaker 2: I think a lot of us who have covered women's
3:35
Speaker 2: basketball and women's sports in particular, I think there's other
3:38
Speaker 2: sports you could point to that moment when it happened
3:41
Speaker 2: where you saw there was a decided shifting move that
3:44
Speaker 2: took the league from one place while growing, but to
3:48
Speaker 2: an exponential growth. And I'm just really happy I was
3:51
Speaker 2: alive as someone whose first professional beat was the WNBA
3:55
Speaker 2: when I was a young cub reporter. So what I
3:58
Speaker 2: would say is that, yeah, it's shape shifting. It's changing
4:01
Speaker 2: not just the league, it's changing culture. It's changing the
4:03
Speaker 2: way we look at female athletes.
4:05
Speaker 3: I think the.
4:05
Speaker 2: Last I would say, the last three to five years,
4:10
Speaker 2: it was it was a steady increase and then it
4:13
Speaker 2: was like boom, the rocket hit.
4:16
Speaker 1: The WNBA is in his twenty eighth season. But if
4:19
Speaker 1: you start to think about it, some would say it
4:21
Speaker 1: feels as if history is repeating itself. Jamel reminds us
4:26
Speaker 1: that the NBA, you know, where the men play, wasn't
4:29
Speaker 1: always a ratings juggernaut.
4:32
Speaker 2: People often forget just how poorly the NBA was thought of.
4:36
Speaker 2: You know when before Magic and Burg kind of took
4:39
Speaker 2: the lead to another level. You're talking about you know,
4:41
Speaker 2: finals games being on tape delay, David Stern having to
4:44
Speaker 2: deal with the reputation that the NBA was full of
4:47
Speaker 2: junkies and like they had a massive drug problem in
4:50
Speaker 2: the league, Like they had a lot of stuff going on,
4:53
Speaker 2: and really they were very concerned whether or not to
4:55
Speaker 2: be financially solving Magic and Bird. When they came along,
4:59
Speaker 2: they weren't ready. I mean, there was so simulate. They
5:01
Speaker 2: weren't ready for that, but they adapted and they adjusted.
5:04
Speaker 1: You do use the word detonated when she arrived. What
5:08
Speaker 1: is it about Caitlyn Clark that changed the landscape of
5:11
Speaker 1: women's basketball?
5:13
Speaker 3: So it's a combination of factors.
5:14
Speaker 2: And I do hope people focus on the fact I
5:16
Speaker 2: said combination, okay, because I have realized been talking about
5:21
Speaker 2: her in the past, if people only hear the trigger word.
5:25
Speaker 1: After the break, Jamel will break down some of those
5:27
Speaker 1: trigger words and explain this new fandom for the women's game,
5:31
Speaker 1: the making of a rivalry, Caitlyn Clark versus Angel Reese
5:35
Speaker 1: back in a moment, I don't.
5:42
Speaker 7: Really hear the noise.
5:43
Speaker 4: I just come here and play basketball every single day,
5:45
Speaker 4: and that's what I focused on.
5:46
Speaker 8: I want to personally think Caitlyn Clark for lifting up
5:50
Speaker 8: our sport.
5:51
Speaker 1: Don Staley isn't wrong. Caitlyn Clark has lifted the sport,
5:55
Speaker 1: and it was good to hear her say it. But
5:57
Speaker 1: it's not just because Caitlyn's a great player. There are
6:01
Speaker 1: so many other factors that have been ignored.
6:03
Speaker 2: She is playing like Steph Curry. It's her whole narrative,
6:06
Speaker 2: it's her whole story. It's like the way she plays,
6:10
Speaker 2: the style. Coming from Iowa. And while Iowa basketball has
6:14
Speaker 2: its own culture and it certainly have had other players,
6:17
Speaker 2: but I think when you come from Iowa, there's an
6:20
Speaker 2: underdog nature to that, Like you're not from LA you're
6:23
Speaker 2: not from you know, New York, a known basketball entity.
6:26
Speaker 2: You're from Iowa, right, And that's a place that from
6:30
Speaker 2: a national level, isn't always seen, it's overlooked. It's in
6:33
Speaker 2: the Midwest, right, So where she is. And then she's straight,
6:38
Speaker 2: and she's white, and all of those factors. Her talent
6:42
Speaker 2: leads first, and she broke a lot of very important records.
6:45
Speaker 2: And then once you start getting to the subgroup and
6:47
Speaker 2: the nuance, you see how that all appeals. But when
6:50
Speaker 2: it hit the fan is when suddenly there's a Fox, right,
6:57
Speaker 2: And I think that's why people make them Harrison so much.
7:00
Speaker 3: To Bird and Magic, they needed each other.
7:03
Speaker 2: You know, it's like the Superman needed Lex Luthor, the
7:07
Speaker 2: Batman needed the Joker. And I don't mean to put
7:09
Speaker 2: to put Angel Rees in some kind of villain's role
7:11
Speaker 2: because I don't consider her a villain.
7:14
Speaker 3: But I think every great player needs a foil. They
7:17
Speaker 3: need a foil, right, and.
7:20
Speaker 1: You know, a foil meaning someone to say, yeah, you're great,
7:24
Speaker 1: but I'm just as good.
7:26
Speaker 4: I have just as many tricks.
7:27
Speaker 2: Correct a foil that can take something from you that
7:31
Speaker 2: people think you deserve. Like Magic needed Bird to take
7:34
Speaker 2: things from him, to take Rookie of the Year, to
7:37
Speaker 2: take championships. He needed that to become a great player,
7:42
Speaker 2: and he talks about it all the time. Larry Bird
7:44
Speaker 2: needed the same thing. Why what did Magic take from
7:46
Speaker 2: Bird yo championships? I mean they were both duking it
7:50
Speaker 2: out for who was going to be the best player
7:51
Speaker 2: of that generation, and you know they're the two most
7:55
Speaker 2: successful franchises in NBA history.
7:58
Speaker 3: They needed that. You know, Yan needs Yang all right, and.
8:02
Speaker 4: So I ten twins.
8:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, shout out to the right, like it's like you,
8:10
Speaker 3: Drake needs Kendrick. Kendrick needs Drake.
8:13
Speaker 4: Drake needs Kendrake. I'm saying Drake needs Kendrack.
8:17
Speaker 3: This is what it takes. It's like if you don't.
8:19
Speaker 4: Just as a reminder, yes, sir.
8:21
Speaker 2: You need somebody who's gonna say, like I, I gotta
8:24
Speaker 2: take it from him, and you know, I'll relate it
8:26
Speaker 2: back to your favorite player, am I Isaiah Thomas.
8:31
Speaker 1: Now, if anybody knows either of us that is false.
8:37
Speaker 1: Magic is Mike is my favorite. Kobe is my favorite.
8:40
Speaker 1: But if we talking about that eron, magic is my favorite.
8:42
Speaker 1: But Isaiah he needed magic, he did, and vice versa.
8:46
Speaker 1: Yes he needed he needed that foil that was gonna
8:49
Speaker 1: get him there.
8:50
Speaker 4: Which is why people are like, who was Magic's.
8:53
Speaker 3: And Michael Jordan needed the pistols?
8:54
Speaker 4: Excuse me, Michael Jordan's Who was Michael Jordan's foil? In
8:57
Speaker 4: real time? It was for how long? In a real way?
9:01
Speaker 3: Well?
9:01
Speaker 2: See, the thing is is like, you know, because of
9:05
Speaker 2: the way we were beating Jordan down, you can all
9:09
Speaker 2: look it up.
9:09
Speaker 3: People. It's like, I'm not making it, okay, you did
9:12
Speaker 3: beat Michael Jordan down.
9:13
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, okay, Well, once he got past, y'all was
9:16
Speaker 1: no looking back.
9:16
Speaker 4: It didn't.
9:17
Speaker 1: It wasn't like y'all had a dynasty. Y'all didn't have
9:20
Speaker 1: a dona. It wasn't like y'all got seventeen chips. You
9:22
Speaker 1: don't have seventeen banners hanging in your arena in Detroit. Okay,
9:28
Speaker 1: what are you at?
9:28
Speaker 3: Four?
9:29
Speaker 4: Six?
9:29
Speaker 3: We have three? Oh?
9:31
Speaker 4: Thank you?
9:31
Speaker 1: And I was I was being kind, but okay, that's fine,
9:35
Speaker 1: But we still got seventeen. We should So what you're
9:37
Speaker 1: telling me is we should have nineteen. We should have nineteen,
9:40
Speaker 1: is what you're telling me. We gave y'all two just
9:41
Speaker 1: for charity. It was rigged, fake news.
9:44
Speaker 3: It was faith in championships out for a franchise Boston.
9:49
Speaker 4: What it is they got us this year? God bless y'all.
9:51
Speaker 3: But we'll be backed bird.
9:54
Speaker 4: Okay, he needed they need.
9:56
Speaker 3: It's not about us, it's not, but it is about us.
10:00
Speaker 2: The whole point is the beauty of sports is seeing
10:04
Speaker 2: the athletes go on the Jerney Peyton Manning needed Tom Brady, Okay,
10:12
Speaker 2: I mean well, considering how well he.
10:16
Speaker 3: Needed Eli Manning. Yeah, we gotta keep Tom.
10:20
Speaker 1: But if we start, if we, if we it's almost
10:22
Speaker 1: like San Detroit needed the Lakers. They didn't and so
10:25
Speaker 1: we have Boston Celtics and we still do.
10:28
Speaker 2: You need something that creates the inertia and the tension
10:33
Speaker 2: and the thing is now. And I think both players,
10:36
Speaker 2: even though they played different positions, both Angel Res and
10:39
Speaker 2: Kaylin like, I would not believe either of them if
10:42
Speaker 2: they said they were not paying attention to what the
10:44
Speaker 2: other one was doing. Especially you know, we go through
10:47
Speaker 2: that stretch where Angel has like.
10:49
Speaker 3: Double double on double double on something that Caylen is uh.
10:54
Speaker 2: You know, I think the last regular season game is
10:57
Speaker 2: we're recording this. She had a w big record nineteen assists.
11:01
Speaker 3: Like they're they're ever watching, They're topping.
11:03
Speaker 4: Each other, they're watching.
11:04
Speaker 1: They're absolutely And by the way, if they say they're
11:07
Speaker 1: not competing in anyone who's watching this, suggesting that we're
11:09
Speaker 1: pitting them against another, then they shouldn't be playing pro
11:12
Speaker 1: like because as a professional your job is to compete
11:14
Speaker 1: at the highest levels.
11:15
Speaker 3: You're you're checking what other people.
11:17
Speaker 1: Are doing, and you're also wanting to be better because
11:19
Speaker 1: you need to your point, it's a foil in what
11:21
Speaker 1: she needs. Angel Rees, how would you describe her as
11:26
Speaker 1: a foil?
11:28
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I think Angel the girl, the
11:32
Speaker 2: what I love about watching her play, and even even
11:36
Speaker 2: her demeanor in general, like she is a writer or
11:40
Speaker 2: die Like I look at how her teammates respond to her,
11:43
Speaker 2: and even though she's a rookie and they're senior and
11:45
Speaker 2: there's veteran leadership that she has on our team. I
11:47
Speaker 2: look at the relationship she has with Tea Spoon, who
11:51
Speaker 2: is and was an amazing player, one of the grittiest
11:55
Speaker 2: dynamic players the league that has ever had. Like te
11:57
Speaker 2: Spoon didn't play no games right, and it's not surprising
12:01
Speaker 2: to me that she's like an amazing coach. But looking
12:04
Speaker 2: at the relationship she has with Kennedy, Carter and Cardosa
12:07
Speaker 2: and like all the players, even the vets on that team,
12:09
Speaker 2: you could tell you can even tell this at LSU,
12:13
Speaker 2: like she is the emotional thermometer. It's her and the
12:18
Speaker 2: way she carries herself. She still got a lot to learn,
12:21
Speaker 2: of course, but she plays with a fire and a passion.
12:23
Speaker 2: Every single play that's hard to teach is very hard
12:27
Speaker 2: to teach.
12:28
Speaker 1: Kelsey Plum, the two time w NBA champion with the
12:31
Speaker 1: Las Vegas Aces, gives her take on Angel Reese.
12:35
Speaker 8: People feel insecure, and you have like a strong black
12:40
Speaker 8: woman that's confident in herself and knows what she's talking about,
12:44
Speaker 8: and she's just saying what she feels. I think a
12:48
Speaker 8: lot of people were like, WHOA, Like, how do I
12:50
Speaker 8: feel about this?
12:52
Speaker 2: You never walk away from seeing her play and think
12:54
Speaker 2: she ain't given enough. You never walk away thinking that
12:57
Speaker 2: about her. So it's like the tenacity like just jumps
13:00
Speaker 2: off the page to me. And I think as she
13:03
Speaker 2: figures out her offensive identity, she gonna be.
13:07
Speaker 4: A real problem.
13:08
Speaker 3: She already a problem, now she gonna be a real problem.
13:13
Speaker 2: And she's somebody you could definitely see when I mean
13:16
Speaker 2: when an MVP one day, like getting all the awards
13:18
Speaker 2: and now I think people want to see how this
13:20
Speaker 2: turns out. They want to see between her and Caitlyn,
13:23
Speaker 2: who wins the championship first, who gets an MVP first,
13:27
Speaker 2: who gets.
13:27
Speaker 3: Rooky of the Year. I mean, we're we're in that
13:29
Speaker 3: right now.
13:30
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, and you talk to players once they're
13:34
Speaker 2: out of the league, and then they're they're able to
13:36
Speaker 2: be more honest about how they felt in these moments again,
13:39
Speaker 2: like they're gonna probably give us the whole Oh, you know,
13:42
Speaker 2: it's great to be considered like no, no, no, no,
13:44
Speaker 2: they're trying to beat each other for this awards.
13:46
Speaker 4: I think let's talk about that. Let's talk about this rivalry.
13:50
Speaker 1: People may be afraid of that word and how how
13:53
Speaker 1: the story will be couched, but the way in which
13:57
Speaker 1: you just described it a moment ago was that there
13:59
Speaker 1: is a need, there's a need for them to have
14:02
Speaker 1: someone to push them, to make them better, and that
14:04
Speaker 1: if that person is your rival, then you will be
14:06
Speaker 1: the best.
14:06
Speaker 4: That's great, that's fine.
14:07
Speaker 1: You will always end up in in rare air if
14:10
Speaker 1: you find yourself constantly competing against the best. There's nothing
14:13
Speaker 1: wrong with that word rivalry. To me, what is it
14:17
Speaker 1: about the new fans that need this rivalry, this divisiveness,
14:24
Speaker 1: this divide? Is it the is it the temperature of
14:26
Speaker 1: the country that we live in right now?
14:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean everything feels very divided. But you know,
14:33
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think that the New fans the
14:37
Speaker 2: I think for especially for people who may have been
14:40
Speaker 2: watching a little bit longer than some of them, they
14:44
Speaker 2: come in with such aggressive hot takes like no, I
14:48
Speaker 2: mean It's like the first that you start watching the
14:51
Speaker 2: NBA and you say Nbawards is the greatest NBA player ever,
14:55
Speaker 2: And it's like, what.
14:56
Speaker 3: Like, you know, so you can watch the five minutes like.
14:59
Speaker 4: Sir Right's like so they mam When.
15:02
Speaker 2: They do stuff like that, it's just kind of like
15:05
Speaker 2: it grates the nerves a bit. But I'm happy they're
15:09
Speaker 2: there and I do feel like and I felt this
15:12
Speaker 2: way during the course of the season. As it became
15:14
Speaker 2: more about ball, a lot of that calm down, right,
15:17
Speaker 2: as it became less about the drama, a lot of
15:19
Speaker 2: that calm down. But what I would say, not just
15:22
Speaker 2: with new fans, but I would say sports fans in general.
15:26
Speaker 2: I think where they need to be, where they need
15:28
Speaker 2: to evolve, is in how women compete. Because it's amazing
15:33
Speaker 2: to me that the same thing they clutch their little
15:35
Speaker 2: pearls over in the WBA, they eagerly cheer.
15:39
Speaker 3: For it to see men do right.
15:41
Speaker 2: They cheer for the rivalry, they cheer for the drama,
15:43
Speaker 2: they cheer for the pettiness.
15:44
Speaker 3: I'm like, I see it all the time. They cheer
15:47
Speaker 3: for it.
15:47
Speaker 2: One of the reasons I brought up Anthony Edwards, one
15:49
Speaker 2: of the reasons people love him is because he just.
15:51
Speaker 3: Don't give it you no way, you don't care.
15:54
Speaker 2: I mean that may have got to the Olympics this
15:55
Speaker 2: first of all he said, oh no, I'm the star player.
15:58
Speaker 9: Yeah, I'll still number one out. Y'all might look at
16:00
Speaker 9: it different.
16:01
Speaker 10: I don't look here at different.
16:02
Speaker 4: I'm like, who else Bron still here?
16:03
Speaker 3: Right?
16:04
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was like.
16:06
Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, no, like this is my team.
16:08
Speaker 4: Well that fits in is society.
16:10
Speaker 1: Culture has a society has a way in which women
16:13
Speaker 1: are supposed to conduct themselves, even on the basketball chort
16:17
Speaker 1: And so you have noticed that the labeling of the
16:23
Speaker 1: rivalry has such a negative connotation when it shouldn't, because
16:27
Speaker 1: we love a rivalry in the NBA and it's celebrated.
16:29
Speaker 2: In fact, what's the number one complaint you hear about
16:32
Speaker 2: in the NBA. They're too friendly, not enough rivalries.
16:36
Speaker 4: Boat hanging out exactly, all the good things.
16:38
Speaker 3: And they all trained together.
16:40
Speaker 4: My my NBA.
16:41
Speaker 1: They weren't fransactly, they would never never.
16:44
Speaker 4: They can stand each other. It was beating Michael Jordan's
16:48
Speaker 4: down Heaven for bed.
16:51
Speaker 2: And then the ladies, you know, they engage, and I
16:54
Speaker 2: mean because they're competitors. Competitors too, they show something similar.
16:57
Speaker 2: It's like, what about the children.
17:03
Speaker 1: Okay, that'd be all right, send them home, you know
17:06
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, because if it if we were at
17:08
Speaker 1: an NBA game, You're like, that's how it's played, Fellas,
17:11
Speaker 1: It's very much. It's very much how if you have
17:13
Speaker 1: a son and a daughter. Your son can stay out
17:15
Speaker 1: all night, but you don't know where your daughter is. Sheese, Yeah,
17:20
Speaker 1: you're going.
17:20
Speaker 3: To trigger me.
17:21
Speaker 1: One of the biggest complaints about the new fans of
17:23
Speaker 1: the w n b A is the slow acceptance to
17:27
Speaker 1: allow women to compete.
17:29
Speaker 3: But it's true.
17:30
Speaker 2: It's like they want women to, you know, to on
17:34
Speaker 2: the basketball court to sit around and braid each other's
17:36
Speaker 2: hair and talk about you know, relationships and and and
17:41
Speaker 2: hold hands and sway like that's I'm like, I don't
17:43
Speaker 2: get this. It's been a physically Yes, you as a rookie,
17:48
Speaker 2: you gonna get it. Like I don't care who you are,
17:51
Speaker 2: you gonna get it because they want to see all
17:53
Speaker 2: this fanfare you come in.
17:54
Speaker 3: He is it real? Can you do it?
17:57
Speaker 1: So when you watch people complain about the way in
18:02
Speaker 1: which Caitlyn Clark might be being treated on the court,
18:06
Speaker 1: do you find yourself helping people Remember a w NBA
18:11
Speaker 1: of yesteryear.
18:12
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean like I remember when the Kennedy
18:15
Speaker 2: Carter when she gave Caitlin the I mean, I feel
18:20
Speaker 2: like I'm diminishing it by calling it a herd follow.
18:22
Speaker 2: I mean, it was a cheap shot shot. It was
18:23
Speaker 2: not a basketball player. It was not a basketball player.
18:25
Speaker 2: But I had to remind him. I was like, Okay,
18:28
Speaker 2: you know there was maybe. I mean, I mean, for
18:33
Speaker 2: sure one of the greatest rookies the WNBA has ever had.
18:35
Speaker 2: And some people will be like, the greatest rookie the
18:37
Speaker 2: WNBA has ever had.
18:39
Speaker 3: They tried to kill Okay, this Parker like she got
18:42
Speaker 3: to a brawl as a rookie.
18:44
Speaker 4: Would had become a physical game.
18:46
Speaker 9: Is ridley deteriorated.
18:47
Speaker 4: Hearson and Parker tried off.
18:49
Speaker 9: With one another.
18:50
Speaker 4: They had her on the ground, had her on the ground.
18:52
Speaker 3: Lisa Leslie ready, they had.
18:54
Speaker 1: Lisa Leslie Cannis Perker was on the ground and someone
18:58
Speaker 1: was on top of her, not telling her sweet yeah,
19:02
Speaker 1: you're detrip once again.
19:04
Speaker 4: That's why yank ye I can't have nice things.
19:07
Speaker 3: Okay, just right on up.
19:11
Speaker 2: She talks about all the time about those many rookie
19:14
Speaker 2: moments that she had that year. Every single player in
19:16
Speaker 2: the WNBA could tell you about a moment where they.
19:20
Speaker 3: Had to prove it. They was about that life. You
19:23
Speaker 3: know what I'm saying.
19:25
Speaker 5: My name is Sabrina Merchant, and I'm a staff writer
19:29
Speaker 5: at The Athletic covering women's basketball.
19:31
Speaker 1: My colleague, Sabrina Merchant was on assignment for the women's
19:34
Speaker 1: National Championship game in twenty twenty three. In fact, she
19:37
Speaker 1: covered the tournament and like many, she was surprised when
19:40
Speaker 1: Iowa and Caitlin Clark be defending champions South Carolina.
19:44
Speaker 4: It's good to see you, dear friend.
19:46
Speaker 1: I find it interesting that we find this moment to
19:49
Speaker 1: have a conversation because I almost feel as if you
19:54
Speaker 1: have always been leading the way on some of these stories,
19:57
Speaker 1: like stories that have been really really juicy, for lack
20:02
Speaker 1: of a better word, really complicated, convoluted, controversial, and because
20:06
Speaker 1: it's been women's basketball, no one's paid attention. You've reported
20:10
Speaker 1: on some very intent negotiations, breakups, cover ups, and it
20:17
Speaker 1: just all went under I guess the radar. What's changed
20:22
Speaker 1: since the last time we talked in terms of women's basketball.
20:26
Speaker 5: So I think The last time we spoke was twenty
20:28
Speaker 5: twenty three WNBA Finals, which was what a great moment
20:31
Speaker 5: that was. That was an incredible series. Two superstars at
20:35
Speaker 5: the peak of their power is going at it. And
20:37
Speaker 5: think of all that has happened since then. We just
20:39
Speaker 5: had two players, Caitlin Clark and Angel Rees, who came
20:43
Speaker 5: onto the national stage and decided that they were not
20:45
Speaker 5: going to step off of it.
20:47
Speaker 4: Let's go to October. You mentioned the twenty twenty three
20:49
Speaker 4: w NBA Finals. Before the WNBA Finals, there was this
20:53
Speaker 4: little game where these these two young ladies by the
20:56
Speaker 4: name of Caitlin Clark and Angel Rees.
20:58
Speaker 5: Meant yeah, So I was covering the West Coast games
21:01
Speaker 5: in the tournament. So I was in Caitlin Clark's regional
21:03
Speaker 5: in Seattle in twenty twenty three. And Great Arena Seattle,
21:07
Speaker 5: you know, it's where the Seattle Storm play. It's only
21:09
Speaker 5: women's basketball and hockey arena. And this is probably like
21:12
Speaker 5: sixty percent full during these Elite eight and Sweet sixteen games. Again,
21:17
Speaker 5: Elite eate Sweet sixteen games, like you know, there's a
21:19
Speaker 5: right to play for the final four. Iowa was playing
21:21
Speaker 5: Louisville Hailey Van Luth, Big name too. That's sixty percent
21:24
Speaker 5: full here. So you know you could tell Caitlin Clark's
21:27
Speaker 5: a great player. You know she was in the running
21:29
Speaker 5: for a National Player of the Year. Ultimately ends up
21:30
Speaker 5: losing to Alia Boston, but or maybe that was the
21:32
Speaker 5: year before. But regardless, like a great player. We're not
21:36
Speaker 5: talking national phenomenon yet. Then you get to the final four.
21:41
Speaker 5: You have Iowa versus undefeated South Carolina, and South Carolina
21:45
Speaker 5: comes in as the defending national champion, starting five that
21:48
Speaker 5: has lost maybe eight or nine games together in their
21:51
Speaker 5: last four years, undefeated throughout the regular season, presumably just
21:56
Speaker 5: two games where.
21:57
Speaker 1: I say, basically, we all saw going did this tournament?
22:00
Speaker 1: Don Stale and South Carolina game Cocks were going to win. Yeah,
22:03
Speaker 1: that's what it was.
22:04
Speaker 10: A no.
22:04
Speaker 3: It was a no.
22:06
Speaker 5: Like if you picked against South Carolina and your bracket
22:08
Speaker 5: you were just asking, You're like, well, what are you
22:10
Speaker 5: doing exactly?
22:11
Speaker 1: You're you're going against Kobe, You're going against Jordan, You're
22:13
Speaker 1: going against the best of the best, You're going against
22:15
Speaker 1: Tom Brady.
22:15
Speaker 4: What are you doing exactly?
22:17
Speaker 5: So it's a nightcap on that Friday, the final four LSU,
22:21
Speaker 5: who has already beaten Virginia Tech, which in hindsight is
22:23
Speaker 5: a dramatically more important game than we gave it credit for.
22:26
Speaker 3: In the time.
22:27
Speaker 5: But you know, Caitlin leads Iowa to this upset of
22:31
Speaker 5: South Carolina, and the energy in that building is unlike
22:35
Speaker 5: anything I can remember previously being present for just live.
22:38
Speaker 5: You know, the tension of like watching a goliath get slain, right, Like,
22:43
Speaker 5: you just don't see that very often, and you know,
22:47
Speaker 5: naturally a team effort. We've seen Kate Martin go on
22:49
Speaker 5: to have a nice little stint with the last ba's aces.
22:51
Speaker 5: So far, everybody can name players on Iowa now, right,
22:54
Speaker 5: like Gabby Marshall, Monicut's not. This is the Caitlyn Clark Show.
22:57
Speaker 5: And she puts up forty points another her magnificent performance
23:01
Speaker 5: and takes down the giants, and it's, oh my god, like,
23:04
Speaker 5: what did we just witness?
23:05
Speaker 1: What did we just witness? Is she the best thing ever?
23:08
Speaker 1: Is she the next Steph Curry? Is she the female
23:09
Speaker 1: Steph Curry? Exactly all the questions people were asking. Because
23:13
Speaker 1: I was shocked that she beat Don Staley.
23:17
Speaker 4: In South Carolina.
23:19
Speaker 1: I was like, there was no game plan for her, right,
23:21
Speaker 1: there was no game plan for Caitlin Clark, and.
23:24
Speaker 5: It didn't seem like a fluke either. It looked like
23:26
Speaker 5: she was in complete control of that game, which is
23:29
Speaker 5: not something you expect to see against again, undefeated, defending
23:33
Speaker 5: national champion, like multiple players going to the pros, best
23:36
Speaker 5: defense in the country, all of that.
23:39
Speaker 4: You name it.
23:39
Speaker 1: They had every accohlade and she walked into Don Staley
23:42
Speaker 1: and Don Staley was just the cherry on top of
23:44
Speaker 1: the ice cream. So she walks away from this game
23:47
Speaker 1: and we're I know, I'm thinking, I don't know what
23:50
Speaker 1: we've just witnessed, but everyone is talking about it. I'm
23:53
Speaker 1: not and by everyone, I mean not just within our world.
23:56
Speaker 1: It's on national news. It is everywhere. People who don't
23:59
Speaker 1: watch to women's basketball or telling you about what they
24:02
Speaker 1: think about these women.
24:04
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's the kind of thing where you get texts
24:05
Speaker 5: the next morning like, oh my god, did you watch
24:07
Speaker 5: that game?
24:07
Speaker 4: Can you believe what just happened?
24:08
Speaker 5: Is that professionally, this isn't what I have to do
24:11
Speaker 5: to be in person to cover that game.
24:12
Speaker 4: Oh, Test Conker stuff up?
24:16
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was I think that's when the switch flitch.
24:19
Speaker 1: After the break, my colleague and host of a Good
24:22
Speaker 1: Game podcast, Sarah Spain shares her thoughts.
24:25
Speaker 6: Having so many conversations with different WNBA players and reporters
24:30
Speaker 6: over the years, one of the things that was standing
24:32
Speaker 6: in the way of people embracing the game is just
24:35
Speaker 6: that it looks a little different than professional men's basketball,
24:38
Speaker 6: and people who could get hung up on they're not
24:40
Speaker 6: dunking would choose that as the reason that they didn't.
24:43
Speaker 4: Appreciate the game back in a moment.
24:50
Speaker 6: For a lot of sports radio and sports TV, you
24:52
Speaker 6: need to have a take. And if you're not watching
24:55
Speaker 6: a lot of games and you don't know a lot
24:57
Speaker 6: about the players or the sport.
25:00
Speaker 4: Take doesn't have any legs. If you can just say
25:03
Speaker 4: I like Caitlin Clark.
25:04
Speaker 6: I don't like Angel Reed, or should women be this competitive?
25:08
Speaker 6: Or are they trying to take her, you can have
25:11
Speaker 6: a conversation on your show and you can get people
25:14
Speaker 6: fired up about it without ever having to do the work.
25:16
Speaker 6: And that's sometimes a good thing, not for the product
25:19
Speaker 6: that comes out, but for the coverage coming out of it.
25:22
Speaker 4: It was really good for women's.
25:24
Speaker 6: College basketball and eventually the WNBA that people had this thing,
25:27
Speaker 6: this rivalry that they could create takes.
25:29
Speaker 1: Out of I'm sure you've heard analysts on television say
25:33
Speaker 1: welcome to the new fans of the WNBA. I'm sure
25:37
Speaker 1: I've said it many a times, but if I'm honest,
25:41
Speaker 1: I don't know that much of us really know anything
25:43
Speaker 1: about these ladies off the court, especially Caitlin Clark. Here's
25:47
Speaker 1: Sarah Spain of the Good Game podcast.
25:50
Speaker 6: All you need to know is she's jacking up shots
25:52
Speaker 6: from basically half court. She's hitting logo threes on the regular,
25:56
Speaker 6: and she's doing it in clutch moments, and that alone
25:59
Speaker 6: opens the door a jar for people to step in
26:02
Speaker 6: and appreciate her play and then start watching the rest
26:05
Speaker 6: of the game and say, oh, this is good. But
26:08
Speaker 6: that was the ultimate sort of backbreaker for that argument
26:11
Speaker 6: that women weren't worth watching because they couldn't done.
26:13
Speaker 4: Was like, oh, wait, she's doing something the guys aren't
26:14
Speaker 4: doing well.
26:15
Speaker 1: To that same idea, everyone says she plays like Steph Curry.
26:19
Speaker 1: She has every Steph Curry I think is arguably one
26:21
Speaker 1: of the most impactful players in basketball in terms of
26:24
Speaker 1: his every man's game, and people have called her every
26:28
Speaker 1: every woman's game if you will, It's very common. It
26:31
Speaker 1: feels like I can do it. She's a girl next door.
26:33
Speaker 1: All of these things feel very marketable when you look
26:36
Speaker 1: at the WNBA, do you feel that's a slight on
26:40
Speaker 1: the women who've already built this league for so many years.
26:44
Speaker 6: I think the.
26:45
Speaker 4: Way we talk about Caitlin Clark can be in.
26:48
Speaker 6: Good faith talking about the ways that she is appealing,
26:52
Speaker 6: and the same way that we could talk about Steph
26:54
Speaker 6: Curry being appealing because you felt like watching him, like, oh,
26:57
Speaker 6: I could do that, which is very different than watching
26:59
Speaker 6: Michael Jordan Shack or Lebron James. And then there's ways
27:02
Speaker 6: that we talk about Caitlin Clark that are almost obtuse
27:05
Speaker 6: with intention so as to disregard the ways that we
27:09
Speaker 6: haven't respected the existing players in the WNBA over the decades,
27:12
Speaker 6: particularly players of color, players who are masculine presenting, players
27:17
Speaker 6: who are openly LGBTQIA plus right. When we are intentional
27:22
Speaker 6: about promoting and singling out a straight white girl next
27:28
Speaker 6: door as the face of a league that has been
27:30
Speaker 6: predominantly black, we have to acknowledge why that's happening. And
27:35
Speaker 6: if you look across the landscape of women's sports, so
27:37
Speaker 6: often what has become considered palatable in the eyes of
27:41
Speaker 6: many who want to place women in specific lanes. Is
27:45
Speaker 6: the sports that have predominantly white athletes who have esthetically
27:50
Speaker 6: generally pleasing body types and who we can sort of
27:55
Speaker 6: infantilize as your little girl all grown up right, just
27:58
Speaker 6: the perfect little role models had a sit soccer, right,
28:01
Speaker 6: And those sports are changing by the way, and we're
28:04
Speaker 6: witnessing and getting through the issues of the changing faces
28:07
Speaker 6: and representatives for those sports in ways that are worth
28:10
Speaker 6: discussing too. But in basketball in particular, when you find
28:14
Speaker 6: that the focus is on Caitlin Clark Paige Becker's Sueer
28:18
Speaker 6: Bird at the expense of other players, because it's not
28:22
Speaker 6: to say that they're not deserving, but it is to
28:24
Speaker 6: say that who else has been contributing at the highest level,
28:27
Speaker 6: who else is worthy of that praise, those marketing deals,
28:30
Speaker 6: those sponsorships that we're not paying attention to, and why,
28:32
Speaker 6: let's be honest about it.
28:34
Speaker 1: Kitlyn Clark is a game changer and she's brought so
28:37
Speaker 1: many new eyes to the WNBA. And episode two we
28:40
Speaker 1: talk to the people who know Kitlyn Clark intimately will
28:44
Speaker 1: also hear from the game changer herself next time on
28:48
Speaker 1: Naked Sports.
28:50
Speaker 4: Who is Kitlyn Clark.
28:51
Speaker 10: When you watch her play, her vision and her understanding
28:54
Speaker 10: of the game, the game is literally slowed down in
28:58
Speaker 10: her mind, you know, and she sees these passing angles
29:01
Speaker 10: that even the past or the receiver of the past
29:04
Speaker 10: doesn't even see, you know, And you're watching in the
29:06
Speaker 10: stands or on the side of the court, and you
29:09
Speaker 10: don't always even see it as a coach, you know,
29:11
Speaker 10: or a fan until it happens. And so just to
29:13
Speaker 10: see firsthand how she sees the game, and it's kind
29:17
Speaker 10: of hard to explain because even as we watch her,
29:20
Speaker 10: you can't get in her mind. But the game is
29:22
Speaker 10: literally slower for her than other people.
29:25
Speaker 7: I mean, I have known Caitlin since she was in
29:27
Speaker 7: eighth grade. I've been following her. We had been recruiting
29:31
Speaker 7: her since then because we knew she was such a
29:33
Speaker 7: special talent. And then it came time for her senior
29:36
Speaker 7: year and her to make this decision. And she grew
29:38
Speaker 7: up in a Catholic high school, very strong Catholic family,
29:41
Speaker 7: and so Notre Dame, of course, was a logical decision
29:45
Speaker 7: for her to make, but her heart wasn't there. And
29:48
Speaker 7: she went on her visit and she came home and
29:51
Speaker 7: was really just didn't feel good about it after she'd
29:54
Speaker 7: committed to them, and so had somebody call me up
29:57
Speaker 7: to find out would I still be interested than having her? Well,
30:01
Speaker 7: of course, so so she did end up calling Notre
30:04
Speaker 7: Dame and declining and then called me up.
30:07
Speaker 4: I can still remember where I was.
30:08
Speaker 7: My husband and I were out having dinner. She called
30:11
Speaker 7: me up and said, if you'd have me, if you
30:14
Speaker 7: still have a spot available, I'd love to be a Hawkeye.
30:17
Speaker 9: And this was my first season doing the women's college game.
30:20
Speaker 9: And I go back and we're watching a little bit
30:23
Speaker 9: and I see her pull up thirty five feet or
30:25
Speaker 9: whatever it was, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this
30:27
Speaker 9: is just this is crazy. And the ratings are through
30:31
Speaker 9: the roof, nowhere near where they're at now, but for
30:34
Speaker 9: that time, shattered records for US on ESPN and that
30:37
Speaker 9: game was on ABC, and so people are like, oh,
30:39
Speaker 9: this Kaitlyn Clark player, she's fun whatever. Well, Caitlyn continues
30:43
Speaker 9: to get better and better, and then her moments become
30:47
Speaker 9: more and more viral, and all of a sudden you
30:49
Speaker 9: have people who are seeing clips of her and they're saying,
30:51
Speaker 9: oh my gosh, who is this they're seeing the insane
30:54
Speaker 9: no look passes, they're seeing the downpour passes. But more
30:57
Speaker 9: than anything else at this moment, what they're seeing is
30:59
Speaker 9: they're seeing someone pull up off the dribble from thirty
31:03
Speaker 9: thirty five forty feet and just having these incredible performances
31:08
Speaker 9: to someone who's leading the nation and scoring and assisting
31:10
Speaker 9: over and over again.
31:11
Speaker 3: The mastering of Caylan Clark continues.
31:15
Speaker 5: I think that's part of what makes Caitlyn so compelling
31:17
Speaker 5: to watch is that you can see everything on her face.
31:20
Speaker 5: She doesn't hide anything. She is incredibly emotional throughout the
31:23
Speaker 5: course of a game, and that makes her a more
31:24
Speaker 5: interesting figure on television and in person. But if you're
31:27
Speaker 5: only tuning in for the national title game, you think, oh,
31:29
Speaker 5: this poor girl from Iowa is getting bullied by you know,
31:34
Speaker 5: the big bad alis you girls, which couldn't be farther
31:37
Speaker 5: from the truth, because, as Caitlyn said repeatedly after the game,
31:41
Speaker 5: like she'd beenditioned out the same stuff for five previous
31:44
Speaker 5: games while she was winning. But like you said, the
31:46
Speaker 5: optics make people uncomfortable, Like there is there's a racial element,
31:49
Speaker 5: which I mean, we let it slide on the men's side,
31:52
Speaker 5: right like if a male athlete taunts another male athlete,
31:54
Speaker 5: doesn't really matter if they're black and white. It's just
31:56
Speaker 5: two men going at one another. But there was an
31:58
Speaker 5: extra layer because they're women. Because we don't let women
32:03
Speaker 5: show their emotions like that in public, they were not
32:07
Speaker 5: given that same level of grace.
32:09
Speaker 11: I remember Kaylyn Clark going viral for like logo threes
32:13
Speaker 11: and step back threes, and it was like, oh, she
32:15
Speaker 11: plays like stuff. That's what I was hearing. And I
32:18
Speaker 11: was like, oh, like, I hadn't seen somebody in a
32:21
Speaker 11: minute shooting from that deep. I hadn't seen like I've
32:24
Speaker 11: seen players really good. But logo threes was her thing.
32:27
Speaker 11: And I was like, Iowa, I don't remember Iowa being good.
32:30
Speaker 11: And I was like, oh, ls, she was pretty good.
32:32
Speaker 11: And I remember they beat Iowa, and I know I
32:35
Speaker 11: remember Kaylyn Clark was really braggadocious like she was she
32:39
Speaker 11: was doing this, she was she was ah like she
32:42
Speaker 11: was playing with a lot of emotion, which is cool.
32:44
Speaker 3: I love it.
32:44
Speaker 11: And then when Angel Rees and them played and Angel
32:47
Speaker 11: Reese put it back in her face, I was like, okay,
32:50
Speaker 11: Like this is competition the way I like it. And
32:53
Speaker 11: then like when I was watching the game. It wasn't
32:55
Speaker 11: that big. I was like, oh, this is great. She
32:57
Speaker 11: pointed out a ring. She did all this and then
32:59
Speaker 11: like I feel like immediately that day it became like
33:03
Speaker 11: Angel getting called class list and I was like, and
33:06
Speaker 11: this is for me. It was like here we go again,
33:10
Speaker 11: because I remember, like Tom Brady, he takes off his
33:12
Speaker 11: helmet and throws it. He's passionate as Brian does it.
33:15
Speaker 4: They got mad at too, Yeah they got mad.
33:18
Speaker 11: But they didn't get mad at Tom. Tom is always passionate.
33:21
Speaker 11: Is he's losing his cool. Odell Beckham loses cool. So
33:24
Speaker 11: it's it's quite often that black athletes and white athletes
33:27
Speaker 11: do the same thing and it's looked at very differently.
33:30
Speaker 11: And with Angel Reese, I was like here we here
33:32
Speaker 11: we go. Like so as a black person, I'm like, nah,
33:35
Speaker 11: I got to ride for you because I got to
33:38
Speaker 11: defend black women. I'm gonna be on your side. So
33:41
Speaker 11: that's what I remember. Like it become becoming a huge,
33:44
Speaker 11: huge thing. And I remember they played the next year
33:47
Speaker 11: and I remember saying, you know, I did make my joke.
33:50
Speaker 11: I was like, Race War two is happening.
33:54
Speaker 1: Would Caitlin Clark be such a supernova if there were
33:57
Speaker 1: no Angel Reese, I don't know, no, no, Who is
34:04
Speaker 1: Caitlin Clark. That's episode two of Making of a Rivalry.
34:10
Speaker 1: The Making of a Rivalry Kitlin Clark versus Angel Reese
34:13
Speaker 1: is a Be Honest production in partnership with the Black
34:15
Speaker 1: Effect podcast Network in iHeart Women's Sports. Written and executive
34:18
Speaker 1: produced by me Kerry Champion. Supervising producer is Arlene Santana,
34:23
Speaker 1: produced by Jack Vice Thomas Sound Design and mastered by
34:26
Speaker 1: Dwayne Crawford. Associate producer Olubu Sayle Shabby. Naked Sports is
34:31
Speaker 1: a part of the Black Effect podcast Network in iHeartMedia.
34:36
Speaker 1: Hey everybody, if you're new to Naked Sports, welcome to
34:39
Speaker 1: the podcast, and for those who've been with us since
34:41
Speaker 1: season one, thank you for Right now. We're kicking off
34:44
Speaker 1: season four with this six episode docu series that you're
34:47
Speaker 1: listening to right now, and after that, Naked Sports will
34:50
Speaker 1: continue to live at the intersection of sports, politics, and culture.
34:54
Speaker 1: We're covering all things from the presidential race to the
34:57
Speaker 1: WNBA Rookie of the Year contests.
34:59
Speaker 4: This season will be bold.
35:01
Speaker 1: As you can already tell, no holds barred, but also
35:04
Speaker 1: we'll bring you that same vulnerable storytelling technique that makes
35:09
Speaker 1: our show so very unique.
35:11
Speaker 4: We appreciate you for.
35:12
Speaker 1: Being here, and thank you all for the support. We'll
35:15
Speaker 1: talk to you next week.