Latest / Reeling It In with Collin Bass / 033 - Building a Faith-Forward Brand w/ Joe Henkels: The Creation of Knights Coffee

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033 - Building a Faith-Forward Brand w/ Joe Henkels: The Creation of Knights Coffee · Reeling It In with Collin Bass

• Collin Bass: Okay, okay, five, four, three, two, one. Welcome back to Real Intend. This is your host, Colin Bass, and I could not be more excited to bring to the show Joe Hankles. Joe is the founder of Knights Coffee, a company that sources coffee directly from Catholic farmers and donates its profit to support seminarians. Before stepping into the business, Joe spent years in ministry. First in seminary, then as a focus missionary serving on college campuses. And today he runs a growing coffee brand out of Pittsburgh built on the conviction that excellence itself can be a form of witness. Joe, without further ado, welcome to the show. Joe Henkels: Thank you so much, Colin. What an intro. Great job. That's that was le lovely. Collin Bass: my gosh. We were just talking about all the stuff you have going on and I'm impressed that you're able to run the coffee brands and have the kids at home and everything. How has the summer been treating you? Joe Henkels: Good. the yeah, kids are home from school, so it's just extra chaos and it's yeah, there's there's still work. Work has to get done and the kids are available without school. And so yeah, they're the calendar gets flexible. You start doing things earlier in the morning, later at night, midday. flexibility is is the key to summer. Collin Bass: Yeah, my gosh, I can't even imagine. I don't have any kids quite yet, but you have to be, I imagine you have to be flexible. Joe Henkels: Yeah. Collin Bass: and I'm so excited to hear more about your story and all that takes up your time a along with just just just living out your vocation well. but tell us just as we begin here, like what was it for you that that brought you to coffee in the first place? This coffee's a pretty niche market and I think I mean, from my perspective, probably a hard one to to enter to begin Joe Henkels: Yeah. Yeah. Collin Bass: with. So tell us a little about about that. Joe Henkels: Yeah, I I will I'll actually go all the way back to being in seminary back in twenty twelve or something. We there was a there was a nice community form formed around having a cup of coffee after morning prayer before we we would get going with our days. And so then whenever I left seminary, even we I had friends that we would still go to coffee shops and just like enjoy coffee. Starbucks at the time had just put out a blonde roast espresso, which in hindsight is not really a a blonde roast. So it's not really true, but it was an exciting thing. And so being able to experience what Starbucks was doing at that time, they had some new brewing methods coming out. It was it was an exciting time for just the coffee industry. And so Just getting into that as a consumer, as I love going to coffee shops. I liked whenever I was in a new city, going to copy it, just I think everybody listening can understand just when you travel and when you're in a new place, going to the coffee shop is just a really fun thing. fast forward to being with focus. I, as you may or may not know, you fundraise your salary. And so by doing so, when you're looking at How much you need to raise and your budget and all that other stuff, that $20 bag of coffee might not make the cut into the, you know, into that grocery budget. And so you're looking more at that, you know, nine, 10, 12 dollar bag of coffee. And so actually, what happened was the solution was to roast my own coffee. And so I highly recommend this if anybody Has thought about doing it, I highly recommend trying it out. roasting your own coffee is by far the easiest way and the cheapest way to drink really good coffee for a pretty fair price. And so you buy the green coffee, you know, you can buy from me, you can buy from Amazon, you buy green and you just need hot air and movement. And so then you can roast it at your house. And so I started roasting coffee at my house and and Just that's how I drank good coffee. yeah, we can lots of details there. And then while I I was in focus, a mission partner reached out to me and he he asked that I I leave focus and actually come work with him and start, you know, growing this brand a different one and helping him in his business. And so yeah, back in 2022, I left focus and went into coffee full time. And then just that's Collin Bass: Wow. Joe Henkels: actually the beginning of the that's actually just the beginning. Collin Bass: Dang. So it all started as a little hobby that you were like, I'm trying to save money, I enjoy good coffee and Joe Henkels: Yeah, just trying to save money. Like it was just a dad that was I I liked pulling shots and I loved coffee and I was like, if I just roast, I can you know, I can drink really great coffee, but I don't have to pay that, you know, twenty five dollars. Collin Bass: Yeah, dang. And then when you stepped out, were you officially look was that originally the the same kind of Catholic vision with this with this original partner that was one of your mission partners? Joe Henkels: Yeah, we were we we did have a Catholic coffee brand. It didn't it didn't go very well. The the the partnership wasn't great. I kind of ended poorly with him. But that that honestly that thread that Knights Coffee is bringing to light was always there. And so yeah, we actually I actually took a break at for about a year or two from the like Catholic coffee space because I was like, yeah, this is like we tried this. We didn't really give it like a good effort. It didn't really work. We were distracted by too many things. Launching Catholic brands is it is hard. It's a s it's a small yet large market. And so I just kind of stopped. And honestly, Colin, like I we only got back into it because we already had the Catholic supply chain figured out, which is actually the hardest part. And so we were already doing that and then, you know, running a secular brand. And we just kind of had this like frustration moment about was like no one is no one's doing what I think Catholic coffee should be. And so we started drawing up what would Knights Coffee look like and how do we partner with the Knights of Columbus? And yeah, it w it it it took face very quickly. but no, that that thread's always been there because I don't think you can separate your wanting to do something in the Catholic world from your job, even if your job might never come into that realm. You kind of like want it to. Sometimes that that that doesn't happen, but I think if you're practicing your faith, you want whatever that is to bleed over. so Collin Bass: Totally. Joe Henkels: the desire was always there. Yeah. Yeah. Collin Bass: Yeah, yeah. Now I I mean I I feel like too. I mean, I we're in a I'm in a similar space. Like I I also love to bring Catholicism into my corporate job, but then also just the things we do on the side. And I feel like especially when you're starting to catch steam or like you're close, you're like 75, Joe Henkels: Mm-hmm. Collin Bass: 80 percent of the way there, there's like this massive block of resistance. and it seems like maybe you experience some of that as well, where it's like you have everything figured out, but like for some reason, like there's just a force is working against you. and maybe it's some spiritual warfare, maybe it's some other things, maybe just resistance in general. but Joe Henkels: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Collin Bass: yeah, I'm I'm curious, like expand on that idea if that's something you experienced. Joe Henkels: Yeah, I think there's there's a balance of yeah, is is this the will of the father is always a question for me. Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: And and then how yeah, how much of this is like, you know, Satan is real and he hates you and he wants you to fail? So how much of that is is playing into it? And then how much of this is, no, this is just, you know, our father's will is not this to h for n for this to not happen. And so I I I prayed, I can't claim credit for this. I you know, being with focus, I remember this thing that Curtis Martin said in the beginning of the focus years that I I wasn't around for this part, but he just said, you know, either either either let this work, Lord, or just kill it quickly. Like please, please kill this if this isn't your will. And we can see that, you know, focus is doing pretty well. proud of it, love it. And yeah. So that's exciting. And so similarly with every every Catholic venture that I've kind of thought through or planned out, the the prayer has always been that. It's like, look, let this succeed or please, please kill it. because I don't I don't want to be wasting my time or efforts on something that is not the father's will. And so the prayer still exists for night's coffee. So it's it's it's going great. But you know, if If it disappears in in twenty-four hours, then that's you know, answer to a prayer, I guess. It would be sad, but but that prayer's always there. It's like I don't I don't really care what I'm doing. I just want to be doing his will. And so that's like led me down this path. And even when getting out of co trying to get out of coffee, I'm just like, this is chaotic. Like coffee supply chain is chaotic and like coffee brands are chaotic and the marketing is, you know. 90% lies and like this is it this is insane. even whenever I tried to get out, I always felt I was like, the Lord like wants me to stay in this and I and I'm not really sure why. And so I I believe we're at the beginning of seeing why, but that's you know, still to be too still TBD. Collin Bass: Yeah, yeah. No, that is I mean, that is so real. And I love that prayer. Like, Lord, let this work or kill it quickly. that's something a prayer that I could Yeah, Joe Henkels: Yeah, please please let me move on. Collin Bass: I could pray I can pray more often as well. Cause yeah, there there is just that that band of resistance as you're starting to catch steam of like, God, is this your will? I'm gonna put on the work for as long as I s for as long as you see fit. but yeah, lead me in the right direction. Joe Henkels: Right. Yeah. Collin Bass: but nah, yeah, Joe, you got us on the edge of our seats now. Like tell us more about night's coffee. Like obviously we hinted at it being a c a Catholic coffee brand, but Joe Henkels: Yeah, sure. Collin Bass: What does that actually mean? And then Joe Henkels: Yeah. Collin Bass: how Catholic ac actually is it? Joe Henkels: Yeah, how it actually works. And it's and I d I wanna almost preface this by I don't want to down anybody who's already tried to do this or any other brand out there that's been trying to get at this. I just think we've we've just had this like perfect storm of people and opportunities. And call it the Holy Spirit, call it whatever you want. but that's that's that's what I'm feeling right now. And so yeah, we already we already worked with these farms in Nicaragua, the the most of the fields are actually in the on diocesan land. And so it's like even the crop like Collin Bass: Mm-hmm. Joe Henkels: even the land is on this like co-owned. and whenever we've asked to do you know content with them, they're always like, we we can't really do that because the government here hates us. And so we actually have to operate in somewhat of a you know our business works with them and it's it's it's very secular, right? And so, but we know them and they know us and we talk to them weekly. And so we already had these farms that were actually found on a mission trip years ago. I can't take credit for that. and they've been working with some other brands and trying to get in the US in different ways. But one of our main goals was like, okay, how do we really help these people down here and then and then how do we do that to other places? And so Nicaragua is where we're based right now for these coffee farms, but it doesn't stop there. I mean we're we can go to Guatemala, Costa Rica, more places. So we already had that piece done, which is honestly one of the hardest parts. We've spent a lot of money down there to make a facility to, you know, test the coffees before they come into the States to just take that quality control that is hard to find and actually put it down there. Even even this little it's a silly detail, but I'll share it because it's gonna be on the bag soon. Even just the score of the of the color of the coffee. So the coffee roast can be described in a lot of different ways. medium, dark, drop temperatures, et cetera. But there's a number now, it's called the Agtron score. And the Agtron score is truly just a number that tells you how light or dark the coffee is roasted. And so we're actually gonna start putting that score on our coffee bags because it's like, okay, here's another level of transparency that like here is the real roast level of your coffee. I don't want to just tell you it's a light roast because that's really vague. I don't want to tell you it's a dark roast because that's really vague. And so let's like give you like a real number that we base all this on. So even that I think goes to like we're building a high quality supply chain from origin all the way to the states. And so you have this supply chain, and I I don't mean to offend people, but I I think people mean to care for the farmers and I and I think they mean to care for these people. At the end the day, they they don't care because they still walk into the grocery store and they buy something, they still walk into they still go online to some random coffee brand and buy that bag because the marketing's really good, which I'm not mad at you. But like brands have tried and failed because they just care about the farmer. And I the consumer wants to care, but I don't believe they they care enough to change their habit. And so then we got into like, okay. I just had a Knights of Columbus Council here and I was talking to them and I was like, You guys do a lot of fundraisers. I was like, we could, it's pretty easy for us to work with you and create this brand. Ironically, there isn't some brand out there called Knights Coffee that's made it yet or trademarked or like has the way like there's just there's not actually anything out there. And so talking to this council, we kind of slowly teased this through. We did some conferences here in Pittsburgh where we would do the coffee and we just kept teasing this out. We just kept teasing it out. the rector here in Pittsburgh is a friend of mine, and so we were again just teasing this out. I'm like, okay, what does it mean to support seminarians? The Knights of Columbus donate a lot of money to this. And so whenever I was in seminary and my brother, you know, the Knights of Columbus were cutting us checks to keep us Paying for food and shoes and tires Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: and and so no one really knows that. And so the Knights of Columbus have like always been this vessel of like supporting seminarians. And so even as as simple as Father Tom has a fund that's like if a seminarian comes to him and is like, hey, my car broke, or you know, my my laptop broke, these are guys that are in their 30s, they likely had a job or they're out of college. And all of a sudden they can't have a job. And they are having these, you know, like your car breaks now. What? You don't have thousands of dollars sitting in the bank because you're you're in seminary and and you're focusing on learning philosophy and theology and all these other things. And so you're not you're not out getting a job to pay off these things. And so that was my very motivating for me as an individual to be like, okay. How do we solve this issue? And so what Knights Coffee kind of became very quickly was this, this like avenue where we can not only supply, I would argue, some of the greatest coffee in the country, but then on top of that, a mission that everyone can kind of rally behind. And so if you buy a bag of Knights Coffee, you pick where you're from. So like the diocese that you're in gets the gets the profits from your purchase. Okay. And so it's a we wanted to build a national brand that also had a very strong local impact. And so that's kind of what you're getting is you have people that are, you know, buying this coffee out in Idaho and they're selecting where they're from. And then I get to reach out to those people and be like, hey, you don't know me, but I owe you some money. Because this person in your diocese bought a bag. And so, and so that that piece is super special. And then on top of that, we're actually working with the knights still. And so the Knights of Columbus in Pennsylvania are about to put out some some communication that, you know, Knights Coffee should be used as a fundraiser at any event, you know. Collin Bass: Dang. Joe Henkels: Monthly, yearly, like this, this is, and then Pennsylvania is just the beginning. So then each state and each across the country, Knights Coffee will partner with these councils. So if you're listening to this in in the Knights of Columbus, reach out to us and we have a nice little program for you. And so we kind of just as we just kept building this, we just kept perfecting the wheel and just like, okay, how do we make this the perfect product for the Catholic? you know, coffee drinker. And so every layer of this, from like the coffees that we offer, you know, we we have super light roast all the way to burnt, right? Like coffees that I wouldn't touch, but then my, you know, even my brother drinks the burnt coffee. And I was like, that's disgusting, but I'm not gonna tell you that like you can't buy this. So like we offer a roast level that you're gonna like because we have so many. And The coffee's gonna be there. And then on top of that, you can have this on your counter and you know that it's just it's just been flawlessly going towards what you care about, not towards some like secular coffee roaster that's white labeling for some Catholic brand. Like it just like this is as pure as it can get. There's no one in the middle. there's no brokers in the middle. It's just this is it. And so it's it's it's it's hard to build this. And so I'm I'm also not concerned about talking about it because to catch up with us would be very difficult. and so that's that's kind of this like I wanted to build this end to end, transparent from end to end, as painful as that is. but that's how we built night's coffee. Collin Bass: Yeah, man, that is so cool. And I think what's what's like strikes me is like you started off we we started off talking about like the consumer doesn't actually care enough. and I at the end of the day, we probably don't. I mean, I buy coffee all the time, I'll go to a coffee shop and I'll bu about grab a bag off the shelf. but Joe Henkels: Right. Yeah. Collin Bass: then it gets to the point where it's like you start thinking about where's your money actually going. And most of us listening to this probably don't have that tight seminary budget. but at the end of the day, we we should all care about where every dollar is going at the end. And who it's supporting and who it's affecting. and I'm curious too. Like obviously we can hear your story and it sounds like this is coming from the best place possible. but how do we know yourself and and other brands, like if it has a clean, good process and it, I mean, even outside of the sphere, is there a way to tell like how they're treating the far farmers and where the money's actually going? Because it doesn't seem like it's as transparent of an industry as it as it could be for the Joe Henkels: No. Collin Bass: vast majority of companies. Joe Henkels: I wish I had a really clear-cut answer for you and for the listener. It's you you have to trust the person. Like you have to, Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: you have to trust the brand. You have to trust the individual. And so the reason that we go live on our social media, the reason I I I love doing podcasts, because honestly, I know that I'm standing here just saying, like, you have to trust me a a bit. I can give you some data points. Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: I can I can tell you where we do it, I can tell you all all these things. At the end the day, you do have to trust me because and you have to trust whatever brand you're currently buying from, because there truly isn't some checks and balances that exist that it that's flawless, right? So like there's fair trade pretty much made up. organic coffee that exists, but is it is it really helpful in buying coffee? No, it's not. Like mold, this like mold-free epidemic. I was like, 99% marketing, right? And so it's like, and so you you truly have to trust the people behind your coffee. And I I just I push everybody out there, just look at where you're getting your coffee beans and just do you know, do you know that person? Do you trust that person? Don't don't trust the bag, as crazy as that sounds, and whatever, like don't don't trust the bag because it's it is not hard to to put those labels on there. I saw a brand. Put out this stat that was like, we pay 300% over fair trade. And I was like, that that doesn't make any sense to me. And so I just dug into it a little bit and I was like, you're saying that, you know, the fair trade coffee for price, I don't know what it is right now. Let's call like a dollar ninety per per pound. I'm like the no one's paying a dollar ninety per pound to like bring coffee in and to roast it. You're paying at least let's say you're buying can let's say you're buying, you know, containers of coffee, like shipping containers of coffee. You're still at you're still at three something, right? And let's say you're like a small roaster, you're probably up in the sixes right now. Okay. So then are you telling me that you're basing that number off of like you're just paying the no the normal going rate for coffee, which is let's say $4. And then you're saying like, I pay 300% over the dollar ninety. And I was like, not even Folgers is like getting coffee right now for a dollar ninety a pound. Like this is this is this is complete lunacy. Right. And so just like when you see these claims that that that people make are just insane. And so that's why I'm doing podcast like that's why I'm here because I'm like look Go to my social media, go to our social media. Like, do you trust me? Yes or no? And it if you trust me, I'm like, this is it. I promise you, nothing else exists like this. You can, you can spend years of researching to find out that I'm correct, which is fine. But that just that's we we only built this because we needed to. It it it it it's not some it's not some money grab, it's not some marketing scheme. I was like, I truly was in the coffee industry. And was severely disappointed in our options. And so here we are. Collin Bass: Yeah, yeah, no. And I I we totally believe you. And I I I think it's exciting too to just get a peek behind the curtain about what's actually happening. because at the end of the day, like whether it's coffee or it's candy or anything else you're buying off the shelf, a lot of that is just like show words that you have to Joe Henkels: Yeah. I mean I mean it's there's so many things. It's like, you know, on your Instagram feed, it's like, you know, avocado oil is, you know, ninety percent seed oil. And it's like, and everyone just in an uproar, right? And so it's it's not that bad, but it's it is, yeah. I'm like, I'm just like, you need to know your coffee people. If you're buying from some random brand, then like they sh then like looking for some checks and balances is probably a good idea. But Yeah. I if you are listening to this and it's like, you know, you're buying night's coffee, thank you for doing that. And then you're at a like a local coffee shop and you want to buy a bag, you you could you should still you could still do that. You could still support your local coffee shop. I'm not saying don't support them. Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: But when I think of night's coffee and like where it fits in a consumer's like daily habit, that's truly what I'm thinking. Is like, look, I want you to buy, you know, a couple bags a month. And just like that's the coffee that. exists in your house and like that's your steady eddy. And if you're somewhere fun or like if you want to try a new coffee, I was like, you should do that. But I people don't really calculate how much coffee they're going through. I was like, you're going through bags a month. And so like similarly to how we tithe, this is kind of a funny analogy, but like similarly to how we tithe, I was like, yeah, I'm not saying I want all of your coffee drinking, but you should give us most of it. And so And so it's like, look, I still still try amazing co still try random coffees, try fermented coffees, try, you know, naturally processed coffee. Like go out there and try great coffees. But like when you're pulling your shot in the morning, you know, that should be nice coffee fortitude or night's coffee charity. But yeah. And we have K-Cups now, which is sad but true. But the the church love. Collin Bass: That Joe Henkels: The church loves its K Cups. Collin Bass: Hey, yeah, you gotta have that in the in the North X after mass. Joe Henkels: Yeah, people people love their K cups and so I'm just a humble, you know, Collin Bass: That's awesome. Joe Henkels: humble coffee man. I'm not a pr I'm not a I'm not gonna force you to do coffee one way. Collin Bass: Yeah, yeah, no, I love it. I love it. And I think I it is the perfect medium of like it is a solid brand. I mean, I've tried it, it's really good coffee. Some of the best coffee I've bought this summer has to be. Joe Henkels: Thank you. Thank you. Collin Bass: and I mean, yeah, and I will be buying more. I'm on a coffee hiatus right now. just for dietary restrictions, but Joe Henkels: It's a it's it's the it's okay. Collin Bass: I I'll be back. but Joe Henkels: I mean it is like like it is caffeine, right? Like it is a, you know, Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: caffeine is a drug that does things to you. I do our our decaf is a naturally decaffeinated decaf. So it is like on the healthier side of the decafs. And then we're even putting out soon a decaf K cup, which sounds silly, but I don't know, like I don't want like a pot of decaf in the evening, but like if you gave like a K cup of decaf, you know, after dinner, that wouldn't be that bad. So we're so we're just Collin Bass: Yeah, yeah, that's Joe Henkels: like even even the or like the you know, the pregnant mom that loves coffee but trying to cut back, I was like, all right, we need a decaf for that mom so she can still drink decent Collin Bass: Totally. Joe Henkels: coffee. Collin Bass: And just pop one in the K cup and you can have it. I I love Joe Henkels: Yeah, just like, you know. Collin Bass: it. Something something that we that we talked about, like a we took a break from, but we talked about there for a second, was work as excellence. and like allowing your work to be something that glorifies the Lord. and you hinted at it, but I want to dive more into it because you're not only a missionary at heart, but you're also even started your career really as a seminarian. and I'm curious what that looks like because we have a lot of listeners. The majority of our listeners are those young folks who are just stepping out of school, stepping into the corporate world and want to balance like life and faith at work and bringing in their full self while not, you know, stepping on any toes and being too Catholic in the corporate realm. And I'm curious how you do that because you said even with your with your farmers, it's more of a business partnership for the government standpoint. and in the real world, like what does it look like for you to glorify the Lord? Joe Henkels: Yeah. Collin Bass: through your work. You're out of Catholic brand, right? But even just from the work standpoint. Joe Henkels: Yeah. Yeah. I mean we we I've I've worked with, you know, f 50 different coffee shops in the Pittsburgh area. I still I still work with some of them. And I always kind of joke about this because I'm like, we probably disagree on everything politically. We we disagree on probably everything, right? Like we we we're we're wildly different. But I I I think that's where I think that's where the Catholic faith should shine the brightest. And I actually get a little bit like emotional at times thinking about this because like your your your faith should be just a part of you. There's you can't separate it, right? Like you can't you can't go to work and and not be Catholic. But like when you go to work, you're not going to convert somebody or, you know, whatever by not talking to them or being obnoxious about I don't like there's just like you wanna be a like a like a path to the church without being just this this like obstacle. Like whenever people whenever people think of the Catholic Church and they and they feel anger towards it or they have issues with it. When they meet you, do they think like, he's Catholic? That that that kind of makes sense. He's like kind of a jerk. he's like, you know, I I like I always feel like he's just kind of judged, like he's not really happy to see me. Or do they see you and they learn, like, he's Catholic. like that's that's weird. He's like so like he's so much fun to be around. Like he like, like we get along so well. And so that's always like, I want to care for that person in that moment. from a work side. But like that, that that person in front of you, no matter who they are, no matter what you're working in, you just you you have to live from this reality that that's like, that's a beloved son. Like that's a beloved person that our father is just cherishing so much. And so whenever you're interacting with them, like are you treating them that way? You know, like you might know of, you know, they're Their sin is is is more public than yours, but have some humility and like this person is one confession away from being holier than you are. Okay. And so like putting yourself above other people is just extremely dangerous. And so having the and I I'm not saying I'm a humble person, but I'm just like when you're interacting in the workspace. Excellence in in that moment is like loving that that person really well. And I'm not saying like don't be Catholic, you know, you can practice your faith, say, you know, say your prayers before your meals, have a cross at your desk, like don't be shy about your faith, right? But whenever someone interacts with you, your only job in that moment is to love that person. And so whether that's, you know, hiring them, firing them. you know, going over a spreadsheet, whether it's marketing, whether you're like the the words you use and the way you treat that person really matters. And so like be a bridge to the faith at all times and not just this this this roadblock. but that's I mean, that's the biggest thing. It's like I've yeah, I've on a on a weekly basis, I interact with a lot of people that don't agree with me. And so, you know, working in Knights Coffee is, you know, safer. But, you know, I I still work with coffee shops in the Pittsburgh area that or like a distributor. I'm like, we disagree on probably everything, right? But like we Collin Bass: Ha Joe Henkels: you should be able to go into that moment and talk to that person, care for that person. How is your, you know, learn about them. Learn about them. Don't get don't be shut off whenever they share something that you're like, my goodness, I would never, I would never do that. You got you got drunk last night. okay. Like I'm just shutting down. and it's like, yeah, like, yeah, they did that thing, but like that doesn't mean you're better or holier than they are. And so it's, Collin Bass: Totally. Joe Henkels: yeah, there the you just have to approach the people like that. there's there's other thoughts on this. I think that's the like, that's the missionary side of it. there's definitely a time to put people. in their place a little bit, especially in the secular world if they're just being completely rude or mean or like there's there is some some justice there, but just as a as a general operating point, get you just give Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: you just give people a ton of grace. Yeah. Collin Bass: I love that. And I I love your quote there. Like the the person in front of you is just one confession away from being holier than you. And I think that's hard to forget. Or yeah, it's easy to forget, right? Hard to remember. Joe Henkels: Yeah. It's hard to forget. Yeah. Yeah. Collin Bass: that that at the end of the day, like whoever's whoever you are gonna be interacting with, we have the same opportunity of grace in front of us every single day. And yeah, we have a really cool opportunity to share with them the our faith through the way that we do our work. And I'm curious your perspective on that. Like practically speaking, Like what does it look like to to live excellence well in a coffee brand, but even like for those listening that are may maybe more of a corporate a corporate job. Joe Henkels: Yeah, I think do do what you say you're gonna do. Like just do what you say, do what you say that you're gonna do. Like be very okay with taking ownership of of your issues. Whenever you mess up, own it. Like don't ignore this is like this goes back to getting back to somebody even, like ignoring texts or calls or emails because you don't want to deal with it. I'm like, I get it, but getting back to that person and respecting them to either to to give them an answer, even if it's yes or no, like giving them giving that person a real answer and like owning up to like, no, we're not gonna do this. Or actually I'm I'm I'm not interested, but I appreciate your time on this. Being able to just give people closure in the business world that are like, you know, searching for leads or hunting for different things or whatever. being able to just do what you say you're gonna do. And if you say you're gonna help somebody, then then actually help them instead of just say like, yeah, that's like I love what you're doing. Let me help you. And it's like so many people I have interacted with that that's just a lie. I mean, they they don't know it's a lie, but it's just a lie. And so excellence for me is, you know, do what you say you're gonna do and and if you're not gonna do it, tell that person that that you're not gonna do it. And just that that transparency, that like lack of gray in just communicating with people. yeah. And that goes into like knowing what you can and can't do. Like, are you capable of knowing? Like, I maybe I can't do this thing, or you bite off too much. Do you have the ability to like pause and whatever is the least important to be like, I took on too much? And so you can can you backtrack and go to that person and say, hey. I messed up. I I took on too much. I I I made this choice and it was the wrong choice. And I'm sorry that like you were the one that was in the way. And to be fair, a lot of this also applies to being married. So to be to be fair, there's also there's Collin Bass: Ha ha ha. Joe Henkels: also some like marriage tips in there. but it it applies to work as well. Like I was like, can you own what you did well and and own what you did bad? And can you just take stock of that? And this is Honestly, a lot of this is is a secular take in so many ways. Like like there are books about this that are not not Catholic. I think whenever you bring in the Catholic side of this, it's it's not just like what's what's the driving force behind this? The secular world is like the driving force is I want to be a good person or I want to make more money. And so therefore by doing these things, I'll make more money because people will trust me. But From the Catholic side, it it just like, no, this is what it means to be Catholic is just this this pursuit of excellence at all times. Whether you're talking about a virtue, whether you're talking about your your spouse, your your congregation, your diocese, your fraternity, your c what like whatever. There is just like you're called to excellence, and you can rise to that. And I I I think that choice to to continue to shoot for it is also even if you never hit it, the the the pursuit of trying to hit it, I think is says a lot. Collin Bass: Yeah, no, I love that. I love that. And I think that it's a really good reminder too. Like, hey, like just being a good person in this world is is owning up what you can and cannot do. And if there needs to be changes, Joe Henkels: Yeah, just own it. Collin Bass: yeah, if there needs to be like some ownership and and even your failures, I think is a big thing in even in the workplace. Like, hey, like I mess up here and I'll own that. and just running with that and and brushing it brushing to the side after you can own it. Joe Henkels: Yeah. Collin Bass: 'cause then everyone like it's easy even easier to own that or carry that as a person. once you've like acknowledged it and you moved on. so yeah, that's that's really good advice, Joe. I I'm curious, did you have something to add there? Joe Henkels: There's there's just like it's just that that basic like let your know me know and your yes mean yes. Like it's it's as simple Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: as that. It's as simple as that. I'm like own it and if you're just it it it just does so many things, whether you're no matter what you're working in, it's gonna like that that just universally works. It just like look, own own it. Like, yeah. And then people will try like people will trust you because you're because you're not lying to them. And and then you're living out your faith because whenever they learn that you're Catholic, they might even think like, that's why he's like so well put together because he's really striving every day for this. And yeah, I'm like, again, that's a that's an example of like you're being a bridge to the faith and not this boulder. Okay. Because Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: people are like, he is trustworthy or he is like, you know, Yeah, she's she's great because, you know, she's just locked onto this and I know that she's telling me the the truth. And that, you know, find out later that she's Catholic is just this like bonus. Yeah. Collin Bass: Exactly. And I yeah, I love that analogy as well, like being a bridge to the faith. We we did some missions in in Peru for a while and their their whole mission was called bridges. and it's just cool. It like that is exactly what we're called to do. Even if you can't even speak the same language, whether like actually tangibly here in the United United States, you're not speaking the same language, or even just in in faith wise, right? Like you're you're living coming from two different backgrounds, not speaking from the same the same background. Like we have an opportunity to build a bridge every single day. Joe Henkels: Right. Or smiling. Just smile. Just be happy. Like just actually like we didn't even cover Collin Bass: yeah, and I love I love your perspective on that. Yeah. Just be a happy person. Joe Henkels: this and like we won't even have to keep covering it. Just like smile. Like be joyful. Be happy. Like God is risen. Like your sin is forgiven. Christ is in the Eucharist. Like why are you why are you upset? Why are you like I don't understand? Collin Bass: It's the problem. Joe Henkels: Like you don't be upset. Like don't be joyful. Like if you're I mean, yeah, that's a whole not we don't even have to go down that road, but it just like I think of the yes means yes and the no means no, but honestly, what's what's really appealing is just the is just the joy. And I'm like, you combine that joy to excellence, I'm like, man, like people people will love you because because you are reflecting Christ. Like you are reflecting the the the joy of the church. so yeah, actually like even as I say that, I'm just like, smile. Like you should be smiling all day. Why would you like why would you be frowning? And so there's obviously time for frowning and and for sadness, but I'm like when people interact with you, are you smiling? Whenever you answer the phone, I was I'm in sales. I've I've been in sale like like whatever. People can tell when you're smiling, even on the phone. When you when you pick up the phone and you're smiling and you're happy to talk to that person, no matter who they are, like that that that does affect people. And so just smile. Like you can't it's life's not that bad. Like you're not dead. It's okay. Collin Bass: Yeah. No, exactly, exactly. We all have this joy to share and there's no reason why you can't slap a smile on it while you're doing it. Yeah. Joe Henkels: Yeah, just just just just smile. Just like when you enter a room, like smile at everybody. I don't know. It's just like if I'm not smiling going into Collin Bass: I love it. I love it, Joe. Joe Henkels: a room, I was like, that someone's in someone's in trouble. Like I don't underst like so Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: someone's in trouble if I'm entering a room and I'm ready to go or something. But Collin Bass: Yeah. Well part of this part of this idea of excellence I think that a lot of people struggle with is like sure, sure, Joe, I can show up well. but I just don't know and I can smile while I'm in the room, but I just don't even know what I'm called to and like what I'm supposed to be doing. And I loved it at the Joe Henkels: Yeah. Collin Bass: beginning. We talked about coffee, and how you got into it and how it was like, Hey, this is the best next step, Lord. And if it's not, like just kill it while while we're while we're progressing and I'll I'll realign. Joe Henkels: Yeah. Collin Bass: but I feel like a lot of people Especially younger generations just don't know where to start. they're walked into a corporate job they hate or they don't even maybe they're they're unemployed and they're headed in a new direction, and they don't know where to begin. Maybe they have all the options in front of them of focus seminary and to be an entrepreneur. and they they just don't even know where to start. And I'm curious too, like if you were to go back to those high school, college years, what what do you wish you knew or what what what do you go back and and view differently about that like career process and S knowing where to even begin with your own excellence. Joe Henkels: Yeah. Yeah. I I think there's you can't you can't do anything and discern and grow without without movement. So like you you can't you can't I I probably move too much. So there's a if I give a caveat here, I probably move too much, but you can't you can't be discerning without movement. Like you can't be discerning seminary. And just like not dating and just like sitting in your room reading, you know, Saint Augustine. Like that's not discerning. That's not discernment. you should you should be reading and praying, absolutely, but I'm like, yeah, you should be you should be dating. You should be talking to people, you should be talking to, you know, whoever you're trying to date, like you should be getting communicating with your words and not and not through, you know, texts and emails and Snapchat and DMs. I'm like, you need to start talking to to people. but like our Lord can't he can caveat, he can work in all things, right? He is more likely to work if you're moving. Like it's easier to kind of like shift or to tweak or to push if the object is is already moving forward or moving in some direction. It's easier to like move that object if it's already moving. And so whenever I think of discernment, I don't think like You know, I'm just this like boulder sitting here, like, just push me whenever you wherever you like you want me to go. I'm like, I'm like, the rock's rolling this way. If you can please redirect it, that would be lovely. and so there just has to be movement because you can get better at discerning what our Lord's calling you to do if you're putting yourself out there in a lot of situations. And so, you know, go on the interview weekend, you know, interview with focus, like talk to an order, talk to your diocese and like then like talk to your friends about it, talk to your family about it, talk to people. Like this isn't also like for you to decide by yourself. It's for you to decide like with other people in some capacity. And so like are you talking about all these discernment things with with your friends? Are they good friends? So like if your friends suck, then like get get new friends. And so like are you discerning this like like with your friends that are also want the best thing for you? Are you discerning this with someone in the clergy that that you're close with? Have you like are are you discerning this with your parents who actually know you the best in many ways? Hopefully that like yeah, hopefully they're they're they're helping you in this. But like you're not supposed to just sit in a room and like make a decision about your life. I was like, there has to be movement, there has to be people having input. The amount of times that people have said things to me or directed me are endless. Like, I don't, this isn't like nothing of this story ever is like, you know, Joe's Joe's done these things. I was like, that's just never true. That's just never true. You have individuals through my entire life that have helped me make this like make choices, been been there whenever I'm just absolutely failing. And I you can't do this by yourself. And so like people around you helping you go and you have to be moving. You have to be discerning. So like corporate job, you know, keep on keep on giving that your best. Again, there's also this piece of me that people like having a safety valve or they like having this like daydream that they think is like, like I'm sitting here in this corporate job, but I'm gonna daydream about this like amazing life as a, you know, I'm I'm running this Catholic bookstore and it's like I'm making so much money and I'm and I'm so happy because I only work two hours a day. And it's just like you're making things up. I was like, you're making things up. I was like, you don't know what you're talking about. You haven't talked to anybody that's like running their own business and they actually hate it because they're working twenty four seven, but they love it because they don't work in corporate, like we don't work for some corporate person. But it's also like we shouldn't Think that like working for corporate is bad in any way. I was like, look, work Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: for work for a business that gives you eight weeks of child leave. Like that sounds great. like I've never had a job, and yeah, and then go have babies. Like, I've never, I've Collin Bass: They go have a baby. Yeah. Joe Henkels: like never had a job where I get like a ton of leave. And I was like, other dads get get leave, and I was like, that's amazing. I was like, kudos to the corporate job. So like I don't, I don't down, I don't want to down corporate in any way. I'm just like, like you have you have you given that job your best? Or are you just kind of like halfing it because you're not happy about who your current supervisor is? I'm like, that person has no real power over you. Like, if it that's a that's just a human. I was like, why are you fearing a human? Like Christ Christ came down and didn't fear humans as we as we put him to death, as we s as we scourged him, as we crucified him. Like, we should not fear humans. And so Your supervisor is nothing. Like, yes, they have, yes, they're like, you know, molding you for this. Yes, they're probably good people. But don't give that person any part of, you know, it it doesn't identify you. Like, that's not separate those two things. Like right now. Like there's a yeah, that's just insane. I was like, this this human does does not have power over you. and so Like you are not obedient to this human in like a spiritual sense. Yes, in a work sense. You should do what you're told for the most part. It's actually there's a there there's Collin Bass: Yeah, yeah. Joe Henkels: a lot of grace actually from from doing what you're told. there's a lot of grace there. And so I mean, I I think it was St. Therese that talks about this a lot. Like doing being obedient, even whenever like you don't want to be. It's a it's a very powerful thing. anyway, so like corporate job, not not bad. Like Not a bad thing. you know, you want to run a business. I was like, great. I was like, do start the business, start something with the corporate job, right? Like, don't, don't just like leave the job and then you're just like taking on debt because you're starting something. I'm like, Collin Bass: shoot. Joe Henkels: no, like, you know, use your you have time. Whoever's listening to this that says I don't have time and they're, you know, they're they're not. having children and married and like if you don't have kids yet, and especially if you're not married, I was like, I promise you have tons of time. I promise you have tons of time. You're choosing to do things with that time that don't serve the end goal, but you have tons of time. Like you you you can sleep eight hours. I don't even know if you need eight hours. We're still discovering that from science. And so like give give yourself to things. Give give yourself wholly to these things. whether it's your parish, whether it's your, your, your discernment, whether it's dating, whether it's there's just so many things. So really with discerning in these moments of life that you're in your 20s, I was like, just move, like start moving. Like move, move, move. I entered seminary at a high school, and our Lord did give me a very clear piece of prayer that was just like, I want you to do this. And I was like, okay, that was very helpful. So like If you're praying, also the Lord will enter into this and He will He will tell you things when you're in prayer. And so that is very helpful. A lot of the times too, he'll also use other people. And so you have to pair up this like steady prayer life with great people. and just discern through movement. I was like, even doing a holy hour, you know, at your at your parish, at a chapel. That that still counts as movement, to be clear. Like going to going to do a holy hour, you know, praying your rosary, going to mass, that that I would count as as movement. but don't just sit in the church all day. I was like, don't just sit in your Newman center all day. Get out of the new whoever's listening to this in a Newman Center, get get out of your Newman center right now. Like, go Collin Bass: Get in motion right now. Joe Henkels: get out right now, stand up and walk out. like you should be there for the events and the you know, for everything else. But I was like, go go go meet people, go interact with people, like bring people to the Newman Center, bring people to the church, absolutely, but like go go play soccer on the lawn, go throw fur, just like get out, do a hobby that you love, meet people in hobbies that you like, and they, you know, bring Bring those people to the church because you're just this vibrant piece of the faith. So move. Just just get up and move. yeah. Our our Lord works through that very powerfully. Whenever I whenever I worry about people, it's whenever they're making these decisions by themselves after they listen to some podcasts. And I'm like, that's not that's not real. that's not gonna lead you where you want to go. Collin Bass: That's not gonna lead you where you need to be. Yeah. Joe Henkels: so that's Yeah, there's a lot of things in there, but Collin Bass: Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's that's right on the money, Joe. and as we begin to wrap up, I think like I mean, that that's the best advice any of us can have whether whether we're stalled in life, whether you're you're into your career, you have kids in a family, or even you're just beginning and trying to figure out where your vocation's gonna lead you. Like you gotta put yourself in motion. and I'd love to get maybe a little bit more specific advice because I know, especially like the realm we're both in, like there are a lot of Catholic founders, Catholic business leaders. And I'm curious for those who maybe have that dream. You mentioned the the young person who wants to Dream of the Catholic bookstore one day. Like, is Joe Henkels: Ha ha ha Collin Bass: there anything you wish you knew before trying to be an entrepreneur as a like Joe Henkels: Mm. Collin Bass: specifically as a Catholic entrepreneur? Joe Henkels: Yeah, I think I I did learn this the hard way. So there is a backstory here that we that we won't get into. Collin Bass: Ha ha. Joe Henkels: I would absolutely not trust somebody with your business or like as a partner just because they're also a person of faith. Okay. So like don't just think because like you and your buddy are both Catholic that that that this person is going to operate the business with those same things. And so, then you get into like a whole nother piece of this. Like you get into the legal side of a business, you get into you get into taxes, like like you get into like really real things. And so having somebody with you through that is critical. But putting that person in a position of power over you is also fine as long as you have vetted that person thoroughly. And so Tay like take on partners if you want, take on investors if you want, but just make sure that these people are vetted, that they're not just gonna end up using you when you do start to make it. And so yeah, I just have have the passion of whatever you want to do as a founder, but you still need to be as as strong in the secular world on legal. you know, type of types of thing. You truly have to put on like the, you know, put on like the wolf's coat for this for this part. I'm like, you do have to, if you're gonna operate in that space, you can't just be this like this like little lamb just prancing through like a den of wolves. Right. And so so Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: so you do need to put on some things that help you operate within The business world because most people, you know, people always want something from you. They always want, they always want your money, your time, they want to use you. that's just how the world works. And so I think the sooner you can realize that, the better. that if you're coming out of corporate and going into Catholic, I was like, that's great. I think yeah, having a strong business plan that can actually scale, I'd actually, I would caveat and say, like, look. If you're gonna launch something that you think is gonna be Catholic, please, please plan it and build it in a way that you don't just end at like funding yourself. Okay. Like try to plan and build something. Like, no, here's how it, here's how much this would cost to have like 10 people on staff doing these things. Like have a vision for where it can grow so that whenever you start putting all your time and money in into this that there's a plan for that growth. so no those are the those are the like two big things. Have a plan. Please have a plan. I would even start executing that plan before you pull the ripcord. So whatever Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: like corporate jobs great, right? Because in theory, you clock in at some time and you clock out at some time, right? And so as soon as you start running your own stuff, there is no clocking out. Like I'll be, I'll be answering text that 6 a.m., I'll be texting or getting a DM at midnight. I'm not saying I'm always checking those, but there's always there's always someone trying to get a hold of you. And so while you have that protected job space that's just like, you're not gonna email me after five and I'm not expected to reply. Great, like keep the corporate gig, keep the steady paycheck gig. And then start building out this thing and start building out, start, start testing it. before you pull the cord. and and most people know to do this, but I'm just reiterating. and then if you're bringing on partners or anybody with money, I would I would vet I would vet heavily both on the on the person side and then I would I would heavily go over anything legal that that you're working on that this person doesn't doesn't own you in some capacity. And so yet Limiting your risk, I think, is important. You're gonna take risk by starting something new and spending money on it. Like that's that's an okay risk. But being able to limit your risk a bit. and like if you're young and listening to this, the most valuable thing you have right now is is time. And so just you have so much time to to build into this business that you're thinking of. That you don't have the money, you don't have, you know, you don't have the connections, but you can you can overcome not having money by a ton of time. And so you can build Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: things on your own. You can build like, you know, we we live in a 2026. There's a lot of things out there that are pretty cheap that you can build on your own. And so like use your use your most available resource, which is time. It's also your cheapest because you're not worth anything right now. And so like Collin Bass: Yeah. Joe Henkels: your cheapest assets actually time. So like you're not looking for more money because your time's still really cheap. So you're gonna start spending you're gonna start spending more money or bringing on people when your time gets expensive. Right. So corporate gig, keep on keep on working it. But if you if you wanna leave, check the paperwork, trust your partners. Don't trust people based on faith, trust them on people that have worked with them. your own conversations really yeah, really vet people, even to in a invasive standpoint. 'Cause as soon as you partner up with somebody, it can get a little hairy if things go so. Collin Bass: Yeah, totally, totally. I think you forget that too. Like like you your work and your your partnerships become its own like vocation and and like not a marriage, but it is a very deep partnership where you gotta know Joe Henkels: Yeah. Yeah. It's a very deep. Collin Bass: you've gotta know the ins and outs of the person you're gonna be spending the majority of your time with, likely more than your spouse if they're gonna be a business partner. Joe Henkels: Right. Right. Collin Bass: so yeah, no, that's to that's really good advice. And I think something easily to look over or to overlook as a as someone who's starting a business for the first time. Yeah. Joe Henkels: Right. Because you're excited. Like be because you're excited, you're like, I this great idea. And I was like, That's great. Just just don't do anything stupid. Collin Bass: Just wait. Totally, totally. Well, yeah, Joe, I love it. I love it. As we begin to wrap up here, the last thing I'd love to just hear your or to get your thoughts on is I won I usually like to ask people some advice for the future. And I'd love to hear if you look at yourself 10 years in the future, what is the advice that that you need to hear? Joe Henkels: If if it's in ten years from now, looking back on this, and I'm like watching this podcast ten ten years from now. Right? Okay. Collin Bass: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Joe Henkels: I would look back. And honestly, just remind I would remind myself that the the most critical piece of everything is still is still your family and the salvation of your of your spouse and your kids. And so even if this even if this in ten years is like this behemoth of a of a business, it would be reminding myself that's like you are still judged heavily. I I believe on how your family turns out. And so, I mean, it's the, you know, gain the whole world, but lose your soul. But I think whenever you're a father and a husband, it it it becomes more than that. And it's, you know, did you did did night's coffee make it? And so, you know, you're doing great and you're praying all the time, but then, you know, your kids are lost or you don't talk to your spouse that much. Yeah, I would just, I would I'd push if if I'm having that issue, it in ten years, dear lord, like snap out of it. Cause you can't yeah, that's just something that I that it's it's a scary thing. I was like, when you're when you're being judged at at the end, I think it's where's your family? So Collin Bass: Yeah. Man, man, that's good advice. And it's so easy to to also overlook. Like, hey, at the end of the day, you can have all these passions, you can have all these great desires to live the faith out in the w in the work that you do and to be great in the world, but y you really will be judged on the family that you have and the way you've loved your spouse and the way that you've really lived your your primary vocation well. and yeah, no, that's that is fantastic, Joe. I I love it. Thank you. Thank you again for coming on the show, for being here for our guest Joe Henkels: Of course. Collin Bass: and channel t sharing your story. It's been really cool and I think yeah, very unique. we have business leaders come on all the time. But I this is our definitely our first coffee founder, coffee brand founder. So this has been a lot of fun. Joe Henkels: It's a it's a unique it's a it's a unique thing. We're not this isn't normal. Collin Bass: Yeah yeah my gosh. Well yes thank you so much Joe this was fantastic Joe Henkels: Thank you, Colin. Collin Bass: Let's go