Latest / The Morning Edition / Peter Hartcher on Australian nihilism, fear and Pauline Hanson’s One Nation

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Peter Hartcher on Australian nihilism, fear and Pauline Hanson’s One Nation · The Morning Edition

• 0:07
  S1: More Australians feel unsafe in the world than ever before,
• 0:10
  S1: according to new research from the Lowy Institute. And it
• 0:14
  S1: is this environment of fear, fear of a bad economy,
• 0:17
  S1: of terrorism, of immigration that makes for an environment ripe
• 0:21
  S1: for a political party like One Nation to prosper. I'm
• 0:26
  S1: Samantha Selinger, and you're listening to The Morning Edition. Today,
• 0:31
  S1: international and political editor Peter Hartcher on how Australia is
• 0:35
  S1: experiencing a moment he has never witnessed before and where
• 0:39
  S1: the solutions lie. Peter, welcome back to the podcast.
• 0:48
  S2: Always a pleasure, Samantha.
• 0:50
  S1: Okay. You've just written that Australians are frightened. So what
• 0:54
  S1: are we frightened of? And just how frightened are we?
• 0:57
  S2: Yes, this is a remarkable moment. The Lowy Institute released
• 1:01
  S2: its annual poll, where it asks Australians how they feel
• 1:04
  S2: about the world. And for the first time in the
• 1:07
  S2: 21 year series of this poll, it finds that a
• 1:11
  S2: majority of 53% a record of Australians say that they
• 1:14
  S2: feel unsafe in the world. Remarkably, that's three percentage points
• 1:20
  S2: higher than it was at the beginning of the Covid pandemic,
• 1:24
  S2: when there was no antidote, there was no prospect of
• 1:28
  S2: a vaccine. Everybody potentially could have been infected and we
• 1:32
  S2: could have had millions dead. But people are more feeling
• 1:36
  S2: more unsafe now than they were then. And by the way,
• 1:39
  S2: it's pretty remarkable that by by any objective measure, Australia
• 1:43
  S2: is rated one of the safest countries in the world,
• 1:47
  S2: not only for domestic security, but also for international security
• 1:50
  S2: and all the rest of it. To answer your question,
• 1:52
  S2: what are we afraid of? Well, number one is cyber attack.
• 1:56
  S2: Fear of cyber attack. Number two is fear of economic downturn.
• 1:59
  S2: The economy has slowed already and house prices are turning
• 2:03
  S2: down as interest rates went up. But they fear worse.
• 2:07
  S2: They fear terrorism. Terrorist attack, which has obviously been heightened
• 2:11
  S2: by the dreadful massacre on Bondi Beach in December. And
• 2:17
  S2: the other one, they fear, is a war between the
• 2:19
  S2: US and China. So there's a fair bit, a fair
• 2:23
  S2: bit going on there.
• 2:24
  S1: So I guess this would perhaps explain why there's an
• 2:26
  S1: increase in Australian support for the acquisition of a nuclear weapon.
• 2:31
  S2: Yes, that's really a remarkable thing. Australia has always been
• 2:38
  S2: hostile to the concept of acquiring its own nuclear weapons.
• 2:42
  S2: Governments flirted with the idea in the 60s, but then
• 2:44
  S2: accepted the US nuclear umbrella as its protection. But now,
• 2:50
  S2: now that the US is seen as less reliable under Trump,
• 2:53
  S2: and China is seen as more threatening, the Proportion in
• 2:58
  S2: favor of acquiring a nuclear weapon here has has inched
• 3:01
  S2: up over the years. The four out of ten Australians
• 3:04
  S2: now say we should acquire our own nuclear weapon, and
• 3:07
  S2: Australia is a signatory to the Non-Proliferation treaty, by the way.
• 3:11
  S2: So this is part of a wider phenomenon.
• 3:15
  S1: Okay. And you've written that this fearful electorate is exactly
• 3:18
  S1: the environment that Pauline Hanson has been waiting for. So
• 3:21
  S1: tell us a bit about that.
• 3:23
  S2: Yeah. So other findings in this poll are that for
• 3:27
  S2: the first time, well, a record 55% of Australians say
• 3:32
  S2: that we have too many immigrants in the country. That's
• 3:35
  S2: that's new. And that's reflected in other polling and political
• 3:40
  S2: developments as well. And the other one is the question
• 3:43
  S2: of whether cultural diversity is a positive thing for Australia
• 3:48
  S2: or not. Now it's still seen as being very positive. 73% say, yes,
• 3:54
  S2: it's a positive, but that's dropped like a stone 20
• 3:57
  S2: percentage points lower in just two years. And that obviously
• 4:01
  S2: is connected with the concern that there are too many
• 4:04
  S2: immigrants in the country. So this is what Pauline Hanson
• 4:08
  S2: has been preaching since, well, for 30, exactly 30 years
• 4:13
  S2: now since she gave her maiden speech in which she
• 4:16
  S2: said that Australia was, quote, in danger of being swamped
• 4:19
  S2: by Asians. She's been peddling xenophobia, racism, bigotry. Most recently,
• 4:28
  S2: her emphasis is on Muslims. She's taken a very anti-Muslim stance.
• 4:33
  S2: She said there are no good Muslims, no good Muslims.
• 4:37
  S2: And another long running theme of hers has been that
• 4:41
  S2: indigenous people in Australia get too much positive treatment. She
• 4:44
  S2: thinks that should change, too. So she's been peddling this
• 4:47
  S2: bigotry and xenophobia and as she keeps saying, I haven't changed,
• 4:51
  S2: she says. I'm saying the same things I've always said.
• 4:54
  S2: What's changed is the country has changed and the perception
• 4:58
  S2: of too many immigrants not enough housing, schooling, roads and
• 5:03
  S2: other infrastructure hospitals to support the population has taken on
• 5:08
  S2: a wider aspect, and Pauline Hanson is out there plugging
• 5:12
  S2: it as hard as she can, and her stocks have
• 5:14
  S2: risen accordingly in the polls, as the right of centre
• 5:17
  S2: or centre right coalition in Australia has cracked twice, the
• 5:22
  S2: coalition itself snapped disheartening a lot of their supporters, followed
• 5:28
  S2: closely by the terrorist attack on Bondi Beach, which just
• 5:32
  S2: seems to have really breached the banks of Australian hostility
• 5:38
  S2: to the other, I suppose.
• 5:41
  S1: Interesting. Well, I wanted to ask you a little bit
• 5:42
  S1: more about this upswing in support for, I guess, what
• 5:45
  S1: Pauline Hanson and One Nation represent, because you wrote about
• 5:49
  S1: the appeal of the party, you said that it suggests
• 5:51
  S1: that it goes beyond the economics of voter self-interest to
• 5:54
  S1: a countercultural nihilism. So we've mentioned this before. You have
• 5:59
  S1: been reporting on politics for decades, and I wanted to
• 6:02
  S1: ask you, have you ever seen this sort of nihilism
• 6:04
  S1: in the electorate before, or is this level perhaps something
• 6:07
  S1: new for Australia?
• 6:09
  S2: We've seen it bubble up temporarily and in specific locations,
• 6:14
  S2: but we've never seen in my lifetime. And the this degree,
• 6:21
  S2: this breadth of, as you say, it's not just change
• 6:26
  S2: in policy or approval, because Hanson isn't just telling people
• 6:33
  S2: that we have to cut the number of immigrants and
• 6:36
  S2: we have to look after the local population better. It's
• 6:40
  S2: much more than that, to the point where last week,
• 6:43
  S2: in her speech for her first appearance at the National
• 6:46
  S2: Press Club after 30 years in politics and repeated invitations,
• 6:50
  S2: she finally fronted the Press Club And the unscripted part
• 6:54
  S2: of her comments. So in answer to journalists questions, she
• 6:58
  S2: broke new ground. She violated the interests. She spoke against
• 7:03
  S2: the interests of majorities. Now, her whole career has been
• 7:07
  S2: built on singling out minorities and going in hard and criticizing,
• 7:11
  S2: blaming and scapegoating minorities for majority problems. But in in
• 7:16
  S2: that speech, her sort of anger, distaste, uh, prejudices and
• 7:22
  S2: bile over overflowed the banks of of her own political
• 7:29
  S2: positions to criticize Australian workers who are by far the
• 7:34
  S2: majority of the electorate, three quarters of the electorate are employed.
• 7:39
  S2: She said they were lazy and and bosses should have
• 7:42
  S2: more powers to sack them. And she also criticised, um
• 7:46
  S2: rights accorded to women. She's anti-abortion and pro-gun. Now these
• 7:51
  S2: are violating, uh, not just political policies, but well settled
• 7:58
  S2: bipartisan middle class values in Australia. So this her support
• 8:04
  S2: continues to rise despite all that. So this is not
• 8:08
  S2: about voter self-interest in in that traditional sense that this
• 8:12
  S2: candidate will be better for my personal interests because she's
• 8:16
  S2: now clearly criticised those big majorities. I mean, women are 51%
• 8:21
  S2: of the electorate and workers are 74 or 5% of
• 8:24
  S2: the electorate. So this is a broader rejectionism, which I
• 8:27
  S2: think verges on nihilism. And this is this is engulfing
• 8:33
  S2: the political system. It is the seems to be increasingly
• 8:37
  S2: the national mood. And yes, to answer your question, this
• 8:41
  S2: is a this is the first in in my lifetime
• 8:43
  S2: and perhaps not seen since World War Two, when there
• 8:46
  S2: was xenophobia directed against first Japanese and Germans for the
• 8:52
  S2: reasons that they were enemy states. And then that was
• 8:55
  S2: more more broadly extended to other Asian races as well.
• 8:59
  S1: Wow. I mean, that's that's quite a statement there. So let's,
• 9:02
  S1: let's go into this a little bit further, because if
• 9:05
  S1: there is a link between growing anger in the electorate
• 9:08
  S1: and this increased nihilism, I mean, it has to be asked,
• 9:11
  S1: is Anthony Albanese up to the task of countering this?
• 9:14
  S1: Because just a couple of weeks ago, you wrote about
• 9:16
  S1: what you thought was a misstep that he had made by,
• 9:19
  S1: I guess, feeding the beast of the Pauline Hanson momentum
• 9:23
  S1: and the, you know, the support that One Nation is
• 9:25
  S1: getting because he tried to counter this fire of the
• 9:28
  S1: liar campaign that Pauline Hanson had sort of put forth,
• 9:32
  S1: and he was casting doubt on the claimed value of
• 9:34
  S1: donations that she said the party had received. And you
• 9:37
  S1: had written that this you know, this just sort of,
• 9:39
  S1: you know, put more exposure really on Pauline Hanson and
• 9:42
  S1: sort of just gave it more momentum, really. So if
• 9:45
  S1: you were advising Anthony Albanese, Peter Hartcher, what would you
• 9:48
  S1: tell him to do?
• 9:50
  S2: Well, thank goodness I'm not. I'm a I'm an objective
• 9:56
  S2: journalist who doesn't get entangled in in advising politicians. I've
• 10:01
  S2: never worked for a political party and I never will. Uh,
• 10:05
  S2: simply looking at standing back and looking at the political patterns.
• 10:10
  S2: What he's saying most recently is that the best way
• 10:14
  S2: to respond to Pauline Hanson and One Nation is to
• 10:19
  S2: calmly criticise what she's doing wrong and to deliver real
• 10:23
  S2: change to improve people's lives. That seems like a pretty
• 10:27
  S2: sensible formula. Any virulent attacks on Hanson only seem to
• 10:32
  S2: encourage and excite her supporters and enlarge her support base
• 10:37
  S2: in a country that is disgruntled, angry and we haven't
• 10:41
  S2: even talked about inflation and the cost of living, but
• 10:43
  S2: that's been eroding people's living standards and continues now in
• 10:49
  S2: the EU, when we thought it was going to recede
• 10:51
  S2: thanks to Donald Trump's war on Iran pushing up oil
• 10:53
  S2: and inflation around the world, it's actually accelerated, and the
• 10:59
  S2: reserve Bank has had to clamp down with higher interest rates.
• 11:01
  S2: So this is a this is a country that's feeling poorer.
• 11:05
  S2: People are frustrated. They're they're angry. And she has become
• 11:10
  S2: the figurehead for that movement. She is the patron saint
• 11:14
  S2: of popular frustration and anger. So criticizing her just seems
• 11:19
  S2: to to be counterproductive. So calmly pointing out how her
• 11:24
  S2: policy positions would actually harm people and harm the country
• 11:28
  S2: is one thing. But really, yes, to address the underlying cause,
• 11:33
  S2: you have to make people people's lives better. And you
• 11:36
  S2: have to demonstrate that. You have to tell them that
• 11:38
  S2: the immigration problem is under control because that's how it's
• 11:41
  S2: seen now a problem and it's the numbers have been
• 11:44
  S2: falling and are projected to continue falling. But the government
• 11:48
  S2: simply needs to revive economic prospects for the country.
• 11:54
  S1: After the break.
• 11:55
  S2: Trump's managed to bring down support for a US president
• 12:00
  S2: in Australia, down to the same level of regard that
• 12:02
  S2: we have for the leader, the dictator of the Chinese
• 12:06
  S2: Communist Party.
• 12:15
  S1: And it's interesting that you mentioned Trump there. And, of course,
• 12:17
  S1: the impact that the war in Iran is having on inflation.
• 12:20
  S1: And it's, of course, increasing feelings of of anger and
• 12:23
  S1: distrust and the struggle really here in the electorate, because
• 12:28
  S1: this latest polling that you have reported on from the
• 12:31
  S1: Lowy Institute, I guess just tell us about how much
• 12:34
  S1: Australians distrust Trump now because it's massive. And then an
• 12:38
  S1: interesting finding, which is that we're still backing the US alliance, though.
• 12:42
  S1: So tell us I guess a bit about that. And
• 12:43
  S1: are we misguided to still be backing the US alliance
• 12:47
  S1: in the way that we are.
• 12:49
  S2: Yes, it is a remarkable contrast, and I think it's
• 12:52
  S2: a very discerning electorate that has looked at this and
• 12:55
  S2: come to these conclusions. So the first one, as you say,
• 12:57
  S2: is that Donald Trump is deeply distrusted in Australia. Only
• 13:03
  S2: 1 in 5 Australians say they trust Trump to do
• 13:06
  S2: the right thing in the world. Well, that's the same proportion. Now,
• 13:11
  S2: I think there's only one percentage point difference between Trump
• 13:14
  S2: and trust in Trump in Australia and trust in XI Jinping.
• 13:19
  S2: So Donald Trump, it's not because we think XI Jinping
• 13:21
  S2: is a hero, but we think Donald Trump is a villain.
• 13:24
  S2: Trump's managed to bring down support for a US president
• 13:28
  S2: in Australia, which is traditionally one of its most supportive allies,
• 13:32
  S2: down to the same level of regard that we have
• 13:35
  S2: for the leader, the dictator of the Chinese Communist Party.
• 13:38
  S2: It's a remarkable collapse in trust in in the US leader.
• 13:43
  S2: But while we've got that going on, as you say.
• 13:46
  S2: At the same time, nearly three quarters of Australians say
• 13:50
  S2: that they support the alliance with the US. So we
• 13:54
  S2: don't trust the leader, but we do trust the alliance
• 13:57
  S2: and we like the alliance and we want it to persist.
• 13:59
  S2: And associated with that is support for Aukus. Now, this
• 14:02
  S2: is a remarkable finding because ever since it was the
• 14:06
  S2: project was announced five years ago, Aukus has been subject
• 14:09
  S2: to continuous attacks and assaults, primarily by the two leading
• 14:14
  S2: apologists for the Chinese Communist Party in Australia. And I'm
• 14:17
  S2: not talking about the ambassador. He doesn't have to do
• 14:19
  S2: the work because Paul Keating and Bob Carr do it
• 14:21
  S2: for him, but also the Greens political party. Another former
• 14:25
  S2: prime minister, Malcolm Turnbull. They've all continuously attacked Aukus. Despite
• 14:30
  S2: all of that, support for Aukus has never fallen below 65%
• 14:35
  S2: in the Lowy series and it is today at 68%.
• 14:40
  S2: So again, it's a remarkable distinction between The temporary leader
• 14:45
  S2: of the US and the longer term interests of Australia
• 14:48
  S2: in having a strong alliance with the US, and having
• 14:51
  S2: the submarine and technology pact with the US and Britain.
• 14:54
  S1: Okay, but my question still stands, Peter, are we delusional?
• 14:57
  S1: And I realize this perhaps we're discerning because we are
• 15:00
  S1: separating this particular American president, whom if the Constitution holds
• 15:04
  S1: in the United States of America, he. This would be
• 15:06
  S1: his last term in power. But that would also suggest
• 15:09
  S1: that Australians, I guess, have the faith that this is
• 15:13
  S1: a momentary time in politics and Maga will not continue
• 15:17
  S1: after this. Uh, and that's a big if.
• 15:21
  S2: Yes, it's a good question. Are we are we deluded
• 15:23
  S2: in clinging to an alliance where in a country which
• 15:28
  S2: is showing less and less inclination to support the its
• 15:32
  S2: alliance structures around the world? You know, if there's an
• 15:37
  S2: impulse in Australia, uh, in some popular opinion, to feel
• 15:44
  S2: the visceral dislike of Trump so deeply that we just
• 15:48
  S2: want our government to distance Australia. But if you if
• 15:53
  S2: you act on that by distancing yourself from the US,
• 15:56
  S2: from the Alliance, what are you achieving? Well, we only
• 15:59
  S2: have one, you know, serious treaty defence ally and that
• 16:03
  S2: is the US. We are closely enmeshed with its defence structures,
• 16:09
  S2: its military. And if we sever that, what are we
• 16:13
  S2: left with? Well, we're just much more vulnerable. It would
• 16:17
  S2: be wantonly reckless to discard your major treaty ally at
• 16:22
  S2: the time. At the very time when the new superpower, China,
• 16:27
  S2: is rapidly building its military. So while we're having this
• 16:30
  S2: internal debate about whether we should be acquiring three nuclear
• 16:35
  S2: powered Virginia class submarines from the Americans, and then and
• 16:38
  S2: then building five more with the Brits for ourselves, China
• 16:42
  S2: is projected to have 2525 nuclear powered submarines capable of
• 16:49
  S2: being nuclear armed. China is in the Lowy Institute's paper
• 16:53
  S2: by Sam Roggeveen, trebling the size of its nuclear arsenal. China,
• 16:59
  S2: as well as the 25 nuclear powered subs. They're projected
• 17:02
  S2: to have 35 conventional subs. They already have the biggest
• 17:05
  S2: navy in the world, and they've shown their intention to
• 17:10
  S2: break Australian sovereignty through $20 billion worth of trade tariffs
• 17:13
  S2: a few years ago. And we know from the circumnavigation
• 17:17
  S2: of Australia last year by a Chinese naval task force
• 17:19
  S2: for the first time, that these are all statements and
• 17:23
  S2: and indications that in the long term, China not only
• 17:27
  S2: intends to be dominant in the region and the world,
• 17:29
  S2: but to dominate Australian sovereignty as well. So it would
• 17:33
  S2: be a little reckless in those circumstances to say, well,
• 17:36
  S2: you know, America, you know, thanks for the memories, but
• 17:39
  S2: we'll we'll see you later. Because our most pressing moment
• 17:42
  S2: of need since World War Two is likely ahead of us.
• 17:46
  S1: Interesting. I mean, I don't want to end on a
• 17:48
  S1: down note, Peter. As I as I say, it.
• 17:51
  S2: Is a bit of a the whole subject. I mean,
• 17:52
  S2: the country is down, everybody's feeling down. And so it's
• 17:55
  S2: a bit of a down, down moment, I'm afraid. But
• 17:58
  S2: you know, this is connected, I think, also to the
• 18:01
  S2: same question you asked a minute ago about how should
• 18:04
  S2: if I'm the Australian Prime Minister, how should I respond
• 18:06
  S2: to the rise, the rapid and rapid rise of Pauline Hanson?
• 18:12
  S2: If we look at our recent political history, Samantha, the
• 18:15
  S2: political parties and the governments that have got themselves into trouble,
• 18:19
  S2: their problems have not been imposed by others. They've been self-inflicted.
• 18:24
  S2: So just allowing the One Nation excitement to reach its zenith,
• 18:31
  S2: and then for the inevitable questioning, challenging, probing to occur
• 18:38
  S2: because One Nation has never achieved This level of support
• 18:41
  S2: or prominence will bring inevitably blunders, mistakes. I think Pauline
• 18:47
  S2: Hanson made a couple of big ones at the National
• 18:49
  S2: Press Club last week as we were discussing, and that
• 18:52
  S2: support the damage to one nation that occurs in the
• 18:57
  S2: next two years before the next election is likely most
• 19:00
  S2: likely to be self-inflicted. Likewise, the only real damage against
• 19:06
  S2: Donald Trump and his movement in the US at the
• 19:09
  S2: moment is being done by Donald Trump. He is discrediting himself, particularly.
• 19:15
  S2: Americans are upset about the cost of living a high
• 19:17
  S2: price of petrol, as well as inflation generally in the
• 19:21
  S2: US that flows directly from his war in Iran. His
• 19:25
  S2: capitulation to the Iranians is is shocking to many Americans,
• 19:29
  S2: especially on his own side of politics. So with that
• 19:34
  S2: self implosion underway, you know, we we have yet to
• 19:39
  S2: see what the response will be. We have yet to
• 19:42
  S2: see the Democrats, who have been very flat footed for years,
• 19:46
  S2: to see how they can respond, to see how the
• 19:48
  S2: American public responds. But there are good reasons for not panicking,
• 19:53
  S2: because no political moment lasts forever.
• 20:00
  S1: Well, that's a reassuring note to end on.
• 20:04
  S2: Best I can come up with a short notice.
• 20:05
  S1: And true and historically true. Well, thank you so much, Peter,
• 20:09
  S1: as always, for your time.
• 20:11
  S2: Pleasure, Samantha.
• 20:15
  S1: In other news today, teal independents Zali Steggall and Allegra
• 20:19
  S1: Spender will form a new political party called Community Strong
• 20:23
  S1: Australia in a much anticipated move set to further destabilize
• 20:28
  S1: the two party system and grab disaffected One Nation voters. Today,
• 20:34
  S1: show host Karl Stefanovic has come under fire for releasing
• 20:37
  S1: a podcast interview with far right anti-Islam activist Tommy Robinson
• 20:42
  S1: in the UK. The podcast episode, released independently of his
• 20:46
  S1: employer nine, was stripped from platforms Apple, Spotify and YouTube
• 20:52
  S1: hours after it was published, and all eyes will return
• 20:55
  S1: to the Socceroos with their next World Cup match to
• 20:58
  S1: be played against Paraguay at noon on Friday. You can
• 21:02
  S1: read more at the age.com.au or smh.com.au. Today's episode was
• 21:10
  S1: produced by Kai Wong with technical assistance by Debbie Harrington.
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