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IDAHO STUDENTS SLAY: SICK GHOULS EYE DEMOLISHED HOUSE FOR "SOUVENIRS?" · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease in the last hours, the
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Speaker 1: crime scene in Idaho in Moscow, where four beautiful students
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Speaker 1: were literally slaughtered, most likely.
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Speaker 2: In their sleep, has been destroyed.
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Speaker 1: That's right, totally demolished or was it? Is there any
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Speaker 1: speck left behind for scavengers seeking murderabilia?
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Speaker 2: Is there anything left for them? And why? Why would
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Speaker 2: they do that?
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Speaker 1: This as the defendant, suspect number one in the quadruple sleigh,
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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger, makes a last ditch effort to the judge
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Speaker 1: to have the case thrown out of court.
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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
1:06
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories
1:08
Speaker 1: and on Sirius XM one eleven.
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Speaker 2: First of all, take a listen to this.
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Speaker 3: It took just ninety minutes time for the infamous home
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Speaker 3: at eleven twenty two King Road to become nothing more
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Speaker 3: than a pile of rubble. The debris loaded up by
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Speaker 3: two contractors, taken to a secret area for disposal. The
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Speaker 3: site was combed for not a single item to be
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Speaker 3: left behind for the curious to find and keep as
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Speaker 3: a souvenir. One local, who wished to remain anonymous, said
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Speaker 3: they wanted nothing left for the rules to plunder.
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Speaker 1: Well, I hope that everything you just heard from our
1:39
Speaker 1: friends at crime online dot com is true. Joining me
1:42
Speaker 1: an all star panel to make sense of what we
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Speaker 1: know right now. Joining me in addition to the other
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Speaker 1: stars on the panel, Andy Kahn, director of Victim Services
1:52
Speaker 1: and Advocacy Crime Stoppers Houston, who first coined the phrase
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Speaker 1: murderer Bilia, and Harold Schecter, author of Murderabilia, A History
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Speaker 1: of Crime in one hundred Objects. You know, a lot
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Speaker 1: of people would not be interested in that, I, however,
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Speaker 1: am extremely.
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Speaker 2: Interested in that.
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Speaker 1: Think about it, A history of crime in one hundred objects,
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Speaker 1: What objects and why. He is also the author of Maniac,
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Speaker 1: the Bath School Disaster, and the Birth of modern mass murder. Again,
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Speaker 1: that's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, however, it is
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Speaker 1: my cup of tea. You can find him at Haroldshacter
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Speaker 1: dot com.
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Speaker 2: So let's start with them.
2:35
Speaker 1: Then I'll circle back to breaking news reporter with the
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Speaker 1: Washington Examiner, Rachel Schilke, who can tell you everything you
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Speaker 1: want to know about why the crime scene has been destroyed.
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Speaker 2: But first, Andy Kahan joining us. Andy, thank you for
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Speaker 2: being with us.
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Speaker 1: You and Harold both Andy, explain, what is murder rebelia?
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Speaker 1: And as far as I know, you coined that phrase
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Speaker 1: and greatly helped me and inspired me and my first
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Speaker 1: nonfiction book, Objection, where there is an entire chapter devoted
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Speaker 1: to what I learned from you called blood money Explain.
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Speaker 4: Murderabilia is items that are associated with serial killers, mass murderers,
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Speaker 4: school shooters, high profile killers that are then peddled on
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Speaker 4: an open market, primarily the innet internet. So these are
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Speaker 4: items that are produced personally by some of the nation's
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Speaker 4: worst serial killers and mass murderers.
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Speaker 1: Let me just break it down because when I was
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Speaker 1: in your office, they're at Victims Advocacy in Texas.
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Speaker 2: I believe you showed me somebody's toenails. Did you show
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Speaker 2: me somebody's toenails or their hair? What was it you
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Speaker 2: showed me?
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Speaker 1: That was not the most disgusting thing I've ever seen,
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Speaker 1: but it definitely was in the top ten.
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Speaker 2: What was it you showed me, Andy Kahan?
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Speaker 4: So inside my duffel bag in my office, I actually
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Speaker 4: have murderabilia items that include serial killer hair samples, which
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Speaker 4: is like Charles Manson's hair that was sold in the
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Speaker 4: form of a swastika. I have actual fingernail clippings from
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Speaker 4: a California a serial killer. I have pieces of clothing,
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Speaker 4: I had objects that were actually taken from crime scenes itself.
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Speaker 2: What kind of objects taken from crime scenes?
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Speaker 1: Because That's what I'm worried about with the demolition of
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Speaker 1: the King Road address what objects have been taken from
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Speaker 1: a crime scene? Look, anything is fair game if some
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Speaker 1: gule gets I don't know, a piece of wood, a
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Speaker 1: piece of cement, a piece of fabric, a piece of furniture.
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Speaker 4: Let me give you an example. Nancy hit me John
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Speaker 4: Wayne Gacy's cross space.
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Speaker 5: There are over forty.
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Speaker 4: People that were bidding for items. For dirt that was
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Speaker 4: scooped up and put into a plastic bag where Gacy
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Speaker 4: had buried over thirty young men.
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Speaker 1: Okay, stop right there. Dirt dirt from Jaysey's crawl space
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Speaker 1: beneath his home, the clown killer. He would lure, molest in,
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Speaker 1: murder little boys, and then bury the bodies in his
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Speaker 1: crawl space. People actually paid money for the dirt. How
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Speaker 1: much money?
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Speaker 4: Well, they were paying anywhere from fifty to one hundred
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Speaker 4: dollars for little bags of dirt.
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Speaker 1: Let's go to Harold Scheckter, joining US author of murderabilia,
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Speaker 1: A history of crime in one hundred objects. Harold, what
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Speaker 1: is wrong with these people? They're ghules, They're like vampires
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Speaker 1: sucking the marrow out of a crime scene.
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Speaker 2: What is wrong with these people?
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Speaker 6: Well, I think it's important to put the phenomenon in
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Speaker 6: some kind of historical context.
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Speaker 5: You know.
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Speaker 6: The only thing different now about collecting murder abelia is,
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Speaker 6: as Andy says, you can do it on the internet.
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Speaker 6: But the fact remains, if you look at the history
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Speaker 6: of crime, people have always wanted to own souvenirs connected
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Speaker 6: to very gruesome and sensational crimes.
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Speaker 1: Why do you say that, Harold Schachter, what's the oldest
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Speaker 1: example of murder abilia that you know of?
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Speaker 6: Well, you know, back in the let's say seventeen hundreds,
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Speaker 6: when a condemned murderer was hanged, one of the perks
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Speaker 6: for the executioner was that he could keep the noose,
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Speaker 6: and the executioners would cut the nooses into one inch
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Speaker 6: pieces and sell them to these morbid souvenir hunters. You know,
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Speaker 6: one of the interesting things. I'm a historian of true crime.
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Speaker 6: You know, my books examined crimes going back to Shakespeare's time,
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Speaker 6: and every time there has been a very notorious murder,
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Speaker 6: people have flocked to the site of the murder and
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Speaker 6: often torn down, you know, the barns or the houses
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Speaker 6: where these crimes have taken place. I'll give you an
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Speaker 6: example in the eighteen seventies. I'm sure you've heard of
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Speaker 6: the Bender family. The Bender family was his family who
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Speaker 6: opened a roadside tavern in Kansas in the early eighteen seventies,
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Speaker 6: and when travelers, you know, weary travelers, would stay there,
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Speaker 6: the venders would murder them and take all their possessions
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Speaker 6: and bury their corpses in the apple orchard. When their
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Speaker 6: crimes were discovered, hundreds and hundreds of people descended on
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Speaker 6: the vendor property and basically tore down the house, you know,
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Speaker 6: coming away with these souvenirs. It's not a new phenomenon.
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Speaker 2: No, it's really not. You're right to bring up the
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Speaker 2: Bender family. Guys. This is happening now, and I'm.
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Speaker 1: Going to go to our legal expert to discuss what
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Speaker 1: does this mean legally if and when this case ever
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Speaker 1: goes to trial that there is no more crime scene
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Speaker 1: to visit. But first I want you to take a
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Speaker 1: listen to our forensic crime online.
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Speaker 7: The clopboard house located at one one two two King Road,
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Speaker 7: has been torn down, with the entire front of the
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Speaker 7: building out of sight in roughly fifteen minutes. According to
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Speaker 7: school officials, demolition was set for during the school's winter break,
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Speaker 7: when fewer students would be in the area. The home, however,
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Speaker 7: has been digitized into a three D model using the
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Speaker 7: latest technology, and according to the prosecution and defense, the
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Speaker 7: actual building will serve no purpose in the upcoming trial.
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Speaker 7: So with all legal sides and agreement, the home that
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Speaker 7: was donated by its owner to the University of Idaho
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Speaker 7: has been raised.
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Speaker 1: Interesting that we hear from crime Online and the legal
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Speaker 1: parties that they're fine with the destruction of the home,
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Speaker 1: but in my mind, those most connected to this case disagree.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut seven to eleven from
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories.
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Speaker 8: The families of the four students killed in the house
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Speaker 8: on King Road were not in agreement on the demolition.
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Speaker 8: The Gonzavez and Cronodle families issued a statement before the
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Speaker 8: demolition asking the university to wait to tear down the
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Speaker 8: building until Coberger's trial is completed. The Gonzavez family released
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Speaker 8: a statement through their attorneys saying the house has evidentiary
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Speaker 8: and emotional value. In the statement, Gonzavez wrote, quote, the
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Speaker 8: family has stressed tirelessly to the prosecution and the University
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Speaker 8: of Idaho the importance evidentiary and emotionally that the King
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Speaker 8: Road House carries, But nobody seems to carry enough. She writes,
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Speaker 8: the family's opinion isn't a priority. The family of Ethan Chapin,
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Speaker 8: who did not live there, offered support of the demolition.
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Speaker 8: In their statement that Chapins said the demolition was needed
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Speaker 8: quote for the good of the university, it's students, including
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Speaker 8: our kids, and the community of Moscow.
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Speaker 2: This is what I think about that. I think that.
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Speaker 1: There's a very strong possibility the jury would not have
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Speaker 1: seen the crime scene. Seeing the crime scene is very rare.
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Speaker 1: We only hear about it in high profile cases when
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Speaker 1: it does happen. Typically it does not happen. However, better
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Speaker 1: safe than sorry. I think rushing into the demolition of
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Speaker 1: the quadruple homicide was wrong at this juncture. That said,
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Speaker 1: I want to hear about this so called secret location,
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Speaker 1: and I want to hear about the destruction of the home,
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Speaker 1: and will circle back to the gules that are absolutely
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Speaker 1: trying to get memorabilia from the King Roade Home, no
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Speaker 1: question about that. Time stories with Nancy Grace joining me,
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Speaker 1: Rachel show Key along with the rest of our experts
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Speaker 1: breaking these Reporter Washington Examiner, Rachel, thank you for being
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Speaker 1: with us. Tell me about the destruction of the crime, Sayne, Well, the.
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Speaker 9: House was originally supposed to be demolished in August, but
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Speaker 9: they delayed it because they were going through this court
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Speaker 9: process of deciding whether or not they were going to
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Speaker 9: keep the home standing or not. And then eventually the
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Speaker 9: home was destroyed over the student's winter break. The university
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Speaker 9: officials wanted to minimize any emotional damage that could do
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Speaker 9: on the students, and as we heard in those clips,
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Speaker 9: a lot of the family members were not okay with this.
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Speaker 9: They said that there could be evidentiary value, that this
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Speaker 9: could be very important if there was a jury that
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Speaker 9: could eventually see the home, or at least just to
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Speaker 9: have it there in case the evidence needs to be
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Speaker 9: put forward in court. So definitely was not the majority
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Speaker 9: opinion of most of the people involved.
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Speaker 1: Where is you so called secret location where the timbers
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Speaker 1: and the scaffold everything went.
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Speaker 2: Where is the secret location?
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Speaker 4: Now?
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Speaker 9: I'm actually not sure where that secret location.
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Speaker 2: Is well, it won't take long to find out.
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Speaker 1: Joining me again, high profile experts on the case. Chris
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Speaker 1: mcdunna joining me, who has visited the scene many many times,
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Speaker 1: Director at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, over
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Speaker 1: three hundred homicides under his belt, and host of a
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Speaker 1: YouTube channel where I found him the interview room. Chris mcdotta,
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Speaker 1: what do you think as a homicide detective, what do
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Speaker 1: you think, Antie?
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Speaker 10: I think in one of these cases, in a case
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Speaker 10: like this, this is a huge mistake. This is just
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Speaker 10: my personal opinion. Is the fact that that building has
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Speaker 10: now gone I think the biggest problem. The State's going
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Speaker 10: to have digital and all of the other forensic stuff
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Speaker 10: that they've collected, that's not an issue, but the acoustics
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Speaker 10: of that home are going to play very important roles.
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Speaker 10: And the reason for that is within fifty feet of
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Speaker 10: that house, there is a video camera that allegedly picked
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Speaker 10: up moaning or something to that effect, and it's in
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Speaker 10: the affidavit. Now, if they didn't have an acoustic engineer
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Speaker 10: go in there and measure, then they've got a real problem.
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Speaker 10: And the other problem I see is early on with
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Speaker 10: the university, it sounded like, was you know, pushing this
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Speaker 10: destruction of this house. They said that both the defense
13:44
Speaker 10: and the prosecution and sign off that's not a problem.
13:47
Speaker 10: They'd stipulate it to that this is your lane, you
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Speaker 10: know more than anybody on this channel about you know
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Speaker 10: what we're talking about there. However, in this particular case,
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Speaker 10: the FBI returned later on after the civilian company that
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Speaker 10: was in there to clean the house shop, the FBI
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Speaker 10: returns to take digital, you know, a digital footprint. So
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Speaker 10: if I was a defense immediately, I would file motions
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Speaker 10: that that is uh, you know, painted evidence that they
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Speaker 10: collected because there's video of this company, the company that
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Speaker 10: was going to tear it down, walking in and out
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Speaker 10: of that house multiple times. And now the FBI shows
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Speaker 10: up just before it's going to be torn down, and
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Speaker 10: they decide to collect additional evidence.
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Speaker 2: After it's being cleaned, right Chris mcdonna.
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Speaker 10: Absolutely, And and so what evidence that that evidence will
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Speaker 10: never come in?
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Speaker 11: Right?
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Speaker 10: And it's I mean you you would fight forever if
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Speaker 10: you were the defense attorney to keep that evidence.
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Speaker 1: If I were the prosecutor, I would not have wont
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Speaker 1: it torn down? Chris mcdonna absolutely, not yet, maybe one day,
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Speaker 1: of course, but not yet. I don't know why we
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Speaker 1: could not wait till after the trial. Now joining me
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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction, former FBI agent,
15:11
Speaker 1: former cop Miami Dade. Never lack of business. They're an
15:14
Speaker 1: author of arrest proof yourself. You can find him at
15:17
Speaker 1: Dale Carson Law dot com.
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Speaker 2: Dale.
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Speaker 1: I got a lot of prophesy tearing down the house,
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Speaker 1: and I want to go back to our murderabilia experts,
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Speaker 1: Andy Kahan and Harold Schechter. But Dale Carson, this doesn't
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Speaker 1: mean a hill of beans if when we hear both
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Speaker 1: sides agree, okay, Why because if it's a mistake that
15:37
Speaker 1: they got rid of the house, the defense can use
15:39
Speaker 1: that later if there is a conviction, there could be
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Speaker 1: a claim on appeal of an effective assistance of counsel
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Speaker 1: by that defense lawyer agreeing to the demolition. I mean,
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Speaker 1: is nobody thinking that a word appeal? You don't want
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Speaker 1: to win the case for it to be reversed on
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Speaker 1: a hill. I just think that we made a mad
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Speaker 1: dash to tear the house down, and for what right.
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Speaker 5: There's no person turning it down. I've been to Thouance
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Speaker 5: of crime scene over my life, and I can simply
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Speaker 5: tell you that the destruction of the primary piece of
16:16
Speaker 5: evidence is insane. That house gives you perspective, It gives
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Speaker 5: you a great many other vantage points.
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Speaker 2: Odell.
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Speaker 1: Just right there after, I watched Chris McDonough do his
16:31
Speaker 1: drive through all over the town, all of the very
16:34
Speaker 1: narrow roads, the streets, very narrow streets. I don't really
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Speaker 1: know that two cars can pass each other, especially in
16:43
Speaker 1: that weather when it's snowing and the roads are icy,
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Speaker 1: and the hill that the house is up on a hill.
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Speaker 1: What I'm saying is the layout of the home and
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Speaker 1: seeing the home, as you're just saying, is so much
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Speaker 1: different than a picture. So when I saw Chris McDonough
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Speaker 1: driving through taking a video at about literally two miles
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Speaker 1: an hour, maybe I knew I had to go if
17:10
Speaker 1: I were going to.
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Speaker 2: Talk about this case knowledgeably. And when I got.
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Speaker 1: There, as you're saying, deal Carson, it's so much different
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Speaker 1: than the photos depict. When I went up that hill
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Speaker 1: and went around the house to the back of the house,
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Speaker 1: it's three stories perched up there. I can just see
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Speaker 1: Coburger right now. I can just see him up there
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Speaker 1: in the dark looking down into that home.
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Speaker 2: I mean you could throw a softball to it from
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Speaker 2: the vantage point.
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Speaker 1: There was only a thin line of trees between the
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Speaker 1: house and where I was parked. I went there in
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Speaker 1: the morning, I went there in the afternoon, I went
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Speaker 1: there in the evening, and I went there in the
17:54
Speaker 1: dead of night, after midnight to look down at the
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Speaker 1: house because somebody left a light on there.
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Speaker 2: Light in their deal.
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Speaker 1: Carson completely different than it looks in the pictures.
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Speaker 5: Dale, And of course you could see directly in where
18:07
Speaker 5: the women would be during the they're living there.
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Speaker 2: Dale.
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Speaker 1: I can even look into the home across the street
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Speaker 1: and tell you the name of the dishwashing liquid sitting
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Speaker 1: at the kitchen counter.
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Speaker 5: That's incredible.
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Speaker 2: That's how easy, how tight the space is.
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Speaker 1: So what you're saying about a picture cannot explain it fully.
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Speaker 5: No, that's power and dury. It's probably better for the
18:32
Speaker 5: defense that it is gone from that perspective.
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, was that you Chris McDonald jumping in.
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Speaker 10: So to your point, Nancy, the other thing that I
18:41
Speaker 10: think is being overlooked here is the fact that one
18:44
Speaker 10: of the search warrants we forget was to a company
18:48
Speaker 10: called Extreme Networks. There was a search warrant filed on
18:52
Speaker 10: January twenty fifth, twenty three and in that they're looking
18:57
Speaker 10: for intrusion network intrusion into that residence. There was a
19:04
Speaker 10: the one of the affiants, there is a detective by
19:06
Speaker 10: the name of Neil er Errig. He now works for
19:10
Speaker 10: the Secret Service and his expertise is network intrusion. Well,
19:16
Speaker 10: whose laptop are they looking for? If we read that
19:20
Speaker 10: search one, it says description or decrypted access to the
19:24
Speaker 10: following computer Extreme network service tags Kaylee. They're looking for
19:31
Speaker 10: network intrusion into Kaylee's computer.
19:35
Speaker 1: Can you a place stop talking like that? Network intrusion?
19:40
Speaker 1: Are you saying somebody who's trying to hack Kale Gonsolvis's computer?
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Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying?
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Speaker 10: Yes, and I would submit to you it's whoever. If
19:49
Speaker 10: it's BK, he's sitting in the back of that house
19:52
Speaker 10: to your point, looking through those windows and tapping into
19:57
Speaker 10: the network in that home.
19:59
Speaker 2: Once again, can you totally freaked me out?
20:01
Speaker 1: Chris mcdona doctor Cyril weck joining US renowned forensic pathologists,
20:05
Speaker 1: medical legal consultant, author of so many books, including the
20:10
Speaker 1: Life and Deaths of Cyril weckt Memoirs of America's most
20:15
Speaker 1: controversial forensic pathologists. I would be inclined to agree with that,
20:22
Speaker 1: Doctor Weck. Thank you for being with us. You've seen
20:25
Speaker 1: so many many crime scenes and performed so many many autopsies.
20:32
Speaker 1: What evidence, Doctor Wect could have been left behind.
20:37
Speaker 11: In the case of John O. Kennedy. All the statements
20:41
Speaker 11: that your guests have made are extremely applicable and extremely reverant.
20:47
Speaker 11: They're talking about taking down the Texas Schoolbook Repository building
20:52
Speaker 11: and even maybe reconstructed the grassal area where us the
21:03
Speaker 11: most critics believe additional shots were fired. So I strongly
21:09
Speaker 11: believe and without repeating, everything that the gentlemen and lady
21:15
Speaker 11: have made are extremely important. I concur fully and strongly
21:20
Speaker 11: agree that there is no needs, no rush, no purpose,
21:27
Speaker 11: and tearing down the critical physical site associated with those
21:33
Speaker 11: particular mergers.
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Speaker 1: I agree with you, Doctor wit and for all I know,
21:37
Speaker 1: the jury may not be allowed to visit, they may
21:40
Speaker 1: not even want to visit, which I doubt. I'm sure
21:42
Speaker 1: they'll want to visit it. But now that opportunity is
21:47
Speaker 1: forever gone, it cannot.
21:50
Speaker 2: Be sumpty dupty. You can't put it back together again.
21:53
Speaker 2: Why they did it? I don't know. I'm not saying
21:56
Speaker 2: never do it. I'm not saying don't do it before
21:59
Speaker 2: the trial.
22:00
Speaker 1: Back to Harold Schechter and Andy Kahn, and then we're
22:03
Speaker 1: going to highly recognize psychoanalysts joining us out of Beverly Hills,
22:09
Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall. Back to you, Andy Cohn. I understand it.
22:14
Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, Rachel Shilkey. I understand that
22:18
Speaker 1: all of the lumber, all of the foundation, everything, the bookshelves,
22:23
Speaker 1: the whatever, the kitchen, the bathroom, articles, everything was raised early.
22:30
Speaker 2: In the morning by eight a m. Under the cover
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Speaker 2: of darkness.
22:34
Speaker 1: The Clapbird House at eleven twenty two King Road in
22:37
Speaker 1: Moscow was gone after just ninety minutes. I understand that
22:43
Speaker 1: everything was taken, Rachel Shilkey.
22:45
Speaker 2: Is this correct? And buried in an undisclosed location? Is
22:50
Speaker 2: that true? Rachel?
22:51
Speaker 9: That's what a lot of the reports are saying. It
22:53
Speaker 9: obviously has not been officially confirmed, but it is possible
22:56
Speaker 9: that all of those materials are still with us. We
22:59
Speaker 9: just are not sure where they are at this moment.
23:03
Speaker 1: Andy Kahan, So your experience that these ghuls, they are
23:07
Speaker 1: akin to grave robbers. They'll stop at nothing to get
23:11
Speaker 1: a piece of this house.
23:13
Speaker 4: No, and there's actually precdent for this, but the key
23:16
Speaker 4: distinguishing piece on the two other homes that were raised
23:20
Speaker 4: in Ohio, one which was Ariel Castro that you might
23:24
Speaker 4: remember was the one that kidnapped and sexually tortured three
23:28
Speaker 4: young women for over a decade and kept him in
23:31
Speaker 4: his house.
23:32
Speaker 10: Part of his plea.
23:33
Speaker 4: Deal was again after he was convicted, that his house
23:38
Speaker 4: would be raised and torn down so that nobody could
23:42
Speaker 4: get a quote, a piece of a prize that could
23:45
Speaker 4: be sold.
23:46
Speaker 5: Ohio did the same.
23:47
Speaker 4: Thing with Anthony Soell, a serial killer that murdered eleven
23:52
Speaker 4: women at that time, after he was convicted keyword after convicted,
23:57
Speaker 4: they raised his house again. So I get why they
24:01
Speaker 4: would want to do this, but I agree with you
24:04
Speaker 4: and some of your other panelists that there's no real
24:08
Speaker 4: sense of urgency right now. But trust me, this is
24:11
Speaker 4: just going to be the beginning and the merchandising of
24:15
Speaker 4: Brian Coberger because when he actually does get convicted and
24:19
Speaker 4: gets in the Idaho penitentiary, the murder billy dealers are
24:24
Speaker 4: going to come after him and Droves because he's a
24:26
Speaker 4: treasure trove for profiting for them.
24:28
Speaker 12: Dancy if I could interrupt just for a second about
24:31
Speaker 12: a very good reason to keep the house instead of
24:34
Speaker 12: having torn it down. Sure, you know, there's nothing like
24:36
Speaker 12: walking into a space and feeling what happens there. Like history.
24:42
Speaker 12: It's one thing to like assumb through a book and
24:45
Speaker 12: look at wars and you know young people that were
24:47
Speaker 12: killed in wars. It's another thing to stand on a
24:50
Speaker 12: hilly knoll or a war field and say, young people
24:53
Speaker 12: died here.
24:53
Speaker 1: Harold Schancktery joining us, author of Murderabilia, A History of
24:57
Speaker 1: Crime in one hundred Objects, Harold Dictor, what do you
25:01
Speaker 1: believe that these ghouls would try to get from the house?
25:06
Speaker 6: Well, I mean, you know, any little object connected with
25:10
Speaker 6: it immediately achieves again this kind of ghoulish value or
25:17
Speaker 6: murder abelia collectors. You know, in the past, I wrote
25:21
Speaker 6: a book, for example, about a mass murderer named Anton
25:25
Speaker 6: Propes back in the eighteen sixties who butchered an entire family.
25:29
Speaker 6: He lured each member one by one into the barn
25:33
Speaker 6: and then slaughtered them with an axe. And again, when
25:36
Speaker 6: those crimes were uncovered and these hordes of people descended
25:41
Speaker 6: on the site, they you know, ripped up the floorboards
25:45
Speaker 6: of the you know of the of the barn and
25:49
Speaker 6: the ones that you know, the pieces that had particular
25:52
Speaker 6: value to them were ones that had bloodstains on them.
25:56
Speaker 6: So again that illustrates two things. One, you know, this
26:00
Speaker 6: is not something new. I think one of the important
26:04
Speaker 6: things that it's important to consider is why we are
26:09
Speaker 6: so drawn to and fascinated, you know, by these lurid, sensational,
26:15
Speaker 6: horrific crimes.
26:16
Speaker 1: To begin with, Carol Schackter, I wondered that for many
26:20
Speaker 1: many years. I don't know the answer to that, and
26:23
Speaker 1: I'm just a jd. Okay, we need to shrink. You're right, Schackter.
26:28
Speaker 1: Let's go straight to doctor Bethany Marshall renounce psycho Anas
26:32
Speaker 1: joining us out of the Beverly Hills jurisdiction. Bethany, what
26:35
Speaker 1: is wrong with these people? Did you hear what Scheckter said?
26:38
Speaker 1: And I want to hear from Andy Kahn as well.
26:41
Speaker 2: The floor board would.
26:42
Speaker 1: Have more value, And I actually feel like I'm eating
26:47
Speaker 1: a dirt sandwich right now.
26:48
Speaker 2: I want to just clean my tongue off.
26:51
Speaker 1: The floorboard would have more value if there was blood
26:54
Speaker 1: on it.
26:55
Speaker 2: Sidney, please give me the tea.
26:56
Speaker 1: I think I need something a little stronger than tea
26:59
Speaker 1: right now, But how could that be? Thank you, It's
27:02
Speaker 1: got more value and these victim's blood. You know what,
27:09
Speaker 1: I just had a flashback. My flashback is this doctor Bethany.
27:13
Speaker 1: When I had to testify at my fiancee Keith's murder trial.
27:17
Speaker 1: I remember coming down the witness.
27:20
Speaker 2: Seat was height up.
27:22
Speaker 1: I had to go up two flights of stairs to
27:26
Speaker 1: get to it.
27:27
Speaker 2: It was equal to the judge up on his bench.
27:31
Speaker 1: And when I came down, I passed the state's table
27:34
Speaker 1: and Keith's bloody denim shirt was there. I'm just trying
27:38
Speaker 1: to get my head wrapped around who would want to
27:41
Speaker 1: buy a bloody floorboard and what Schacter or Harold Schacter
27:47
Speaker 1: told me. And I'm pretty sure Andy co is going
27:50
Speaker 1: to agree that that floorboard or that mattress or that
27:57
Speaker 1: bed sheet would fetch more money on the internet if
28:01
Speaker 1: the victims of blood was on it.
28:04
Speaker 2: Who are these people.
28:05
Speaker 12: You know, Nancy, I have to believe that these collectors
28:08
Speaker 12: of this murderabilia present panel excluded, of course, are taking
28:14
Speaker 12: some secret delight in the pain and suffering of the victims,
28:19
Speaker 12: just like a murder or status takes delight in the
28:22
Speaker 12: suffering of the victims. So do these collectors, you know, Nancy,
28:26
Speaker 12: People feel that just because somebody is famous, they must
28:31
Speaker 12: be fascinating. So like a BTK killer or a Casey Anthony,
28:36
Speaker 12: just because we know a lot about them and they
28:39
Speaker 12: are talked about on the air, or these people must
28:41
Speaker 12: be fascinating, I want a piece of them. But the
28:44
Speaker 12: fact is, criminals, murderers, perpetrators, they are incredibly boring people.
28:51
Speaker 12: Have you ever sat and interviewed one, I'm sure you have.
28:53
Speaker 12: You know, the crimes may be very notorious and sort
28:58
Speaker 12: of horrible and hard to wrap one's mind around. But
29:02
Speaker 12: when you sit with a criminal, their excitement is not
29:05
Speaker 12: in the conversation with you, or about their travels, or
29:08
Speaker 12: their children or the latest books they've read. They're so
29:11
Speaker 12: preoccupied with their internal, sexualized, fetishized world of wanting to
29:17
Speaker 12: kill people that they're not even present in the room
29:19
Speaker 12: with you. So I think the public should not confuse
29:24
Speaker 12: these criminals and their acts as being fascinating in any way.
29:29
Speaker 12: And the fact is, when you have a floorboard with
29:33
Speaker 12: blood on it in your home, you yourself become proxy
29:38
Speaker 12: to the crime. I know that's a dramatic statement, not
29:40
Speaker 12: in reality, it's not like you could be prosecuted for it.
29:44
Speaker 12: But you are delighting in the anguish of the victims.
29:49
Speaker 12: You are ignoring what their families have gone through, and
29:53
Speaker 12: you have a whole imagination about what happened that has
29:56
Speaker 12: nothing to do with reality.
30:12
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Greece, Andy Kahn, you had to
30:18
Speaker 1: buy your toenail and hair Stash can't believe I went
30:23
Speaker 1: to law school three years at Mercery University and it
30:27
Speaker 1: took me two years at NYU to get an l
30:30
Speaker 1: and criminal and constitutional law And I'm saying your toenail Stash.
30:33
Speaker 2: I never thought those words would come out of my mouth,
30:36
Speaker 2: but they did. You had to get it from somewhere.
30:40
Speaker 1: What freaks are dealing in a killer's toenails? And I
30:45
Speaker 1: agree and disagree with Dr Bethany Marshall. I think some
30:49
Speaker 1: people want a piece of these victims. They want the
30:54
Speaker 1: bloody bed sheets, they want the bloody floorboard, and can
30:59
Speaker 1: you and made the pain Andy con of the victims' families.
31:05
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sitting here right now wondering for the
31:07
Speaker 1: first time because I really don't like to think about it,
31:10
Speaker 1: and I try to avoid thinking about it. What happened
31:13
Speaker 1: to Keith bloody shirt.
31:14
Speaker 2: Where is it? Did they destroy it?
31:16
Speaker 1: Is it in a plastic bag somewhere in an evidence room?
31:20
Speaker 2: I mean, can you imagine?
31:23
Speaker 1: And Andy, do you really think these ghules are gonna
31:28
Speaker 1: give up? They're going to find where the home remains
31:33
Speaker 1: were buried. They're going to find it, and they're going
31:37
Speaker 1: to try and get it. But back to my original question,
31:41
Speaker 1: who are these people? You had to buy those toenails somewhere?
31:44
Speaker 2: From who you know?
31:45
Speaker 4: From a victim's perspective, and as someone who's worked with
31:48
Speaker 4: homicide survivors for over thirty years, there's absolutely nothing more
31:53
Speaker 4: nauseating and discussing when you find out the person who
31:57
Speaker 4: murdered one of your loved ones now has items being
32:01
Speaker 4: hawked by third party dealers simply for pure profits. Like
32:05
Speaker 4: it or not, you have small groups of people out here,
32:09
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, idolized serial killers, mass murderers, high profile killers,
32:15
Speaker 4: and they want to own a piece of their soul.
32:18
Speaker 10: And this is a untapped.
32:20
Speaker 4: Market that they've realized that not only can they own
32:24
Speaker 4: a piece of whatever they have, they can also make
32:28
Speaker 4: money off of it. So you have about seven dealers
32:31
Speaker 4: throughout the country that specialized in obtaining items from high
32:37
Speaker 4: profile killers strictly for the purpose of profiting, and anything
32:41
Speaker 4: that you can get that has something associated with the victim.
32:46
Speaker 4: Because I have actually seen items that were actually used
32:51
Speaker 4: to kill their victims being sold at an open market.
32:56
Speaker 4: That is like the ultimate get. It's like a treasure hunt,
32:59
Speaker 4: and nothing is going to stop them from trying to
33:02
Speaker 4: obtain items from the Idaho killer.
33:05
Speaker 2: Stop plays.
33:06
Speaker 1: I've got to go to Dale Carson on something. Dale,
33:09
Speaker 1: do you ever, I mean, you and I have tried
33:12
Speaker 1: a lot of cases. Everybody on this panel has dealt
33:15
Speaker 1: with a lot of similar cases. Well, not similar to Idaho,
33:20
Speaker 1: because that's quadruple murder, but murder cases. Dale, do you
33:25
Speaker 1: ever just get sick to your stomach because everything Andy
33:28
Speaker 1: con just said, Harold Schechter, doctor Cyril Wicked, everything they
33:32
Speaker 1: said is correct, But something about, Hey, what about this?
33:39
Speaker 1: Do you remember in the Bible how the Roman soldiers
33:46
Speaker 1: gambled to try to get Christ's robe and his crown.
33:53
Speaker 2: Of thorns all that was left and took it somewhere.
34:00
Speaker 2: I mean as far as I can. I mean, thinking
34:02
Speaker 2: all the way back in history, how callous and awful
34:07
Speaker 2: that is.
34:07
Speaker 1: Dale, Just thinking of someone trying to get remnants of
34:11
Speaker 1: this home, and the more gory and the closer that
34:16
Speaker 1: remnant was to one of the victims, the more valuable
34:19
Speaker 1: it would be. Do you ever just want to quit
34:22
Speaker 1: Dale Carson when you hear things like that.
34:24
Speaker 5: Oh, absolutely, you've missed one ceiling point. It's the smell
34:29
Speaker 5: of a recent crime sheet, and it's pubbling because the
34:34
Speaker 5: lines are lost basically no reason at all. Yes, all
34:39
Speaker 5: the material wealth that they have gathered all these years
34:42
Speaker 5: is of no meaning this one, right?
34:47
Speaker 2: Is this Harold?
34:47
Speaker 5: Or yeah?
34:48
Speaker 6: This is Harold? Can I just interject from ways?
34:51
Speaker 2: Yes?
34:51
Speaker 6: I mean, one word that we haven't been using so
34:54
Speaker 6: far in this discussion is evil. And you know, evil
35:00
Speaker 6: exerts its own very dark fascination often in the newspaper
35:07
Speaker 6: articles that I've read, when reporters have seen these crowds
35:11
Speaker 6: of morbid curiosity seekers descend on these places and come
35:16
Speaker 6: away with bloody splinters and so on, they talk about
35:19
Speaker 6: them as relics, And you know, there's a kind of
35:23
Speaker 6: they're almost the flip side, the dark side, the shadow
35:27
Speaker 6: side of saints relics. You know, Saints relics contains something
35:32
Speaker 6: of the holy and the sacred, a lot of the murderabilia.
35:36
Speaker 6: And again this is you know, not that these people
35:39
Speaker 6: are conscious of it, but they're little objects you know
35:43
Speaker 6: that you know that sort of resonate with the power
35:46
Speaker 6: of evil, and there's something about you know, there's a
35:50
Speaker 6: dark attraction to that for whatever reason. I mean our
35:55
Speaker 6: you know, perhaps the psychoanalyst on our panel, whose name unfortunately.
35:59
Speaker 1: For doctor Bethany Marshall. Hey, let's follow up on what
36:03
Speaker 1: Schechter is saying. You're hearing Harold Secter, author of murder Abelia.
36:07
Speaker 1: What about it, doctor Bethany.
36:08
Speaker 13: Well, I think it is an aspect of evil. I
36:10
Speaker 13: think that because it's not just like othering where you
36:14
Speaker 13: know that somebody suffered but you're kind of callous to
36:17
Speaker 13: it and you don't really care.
36:19
Speaker 12: This is at a whole other level. This is actually
36:23
Speaker 12: taking delight in somebody suffering. That's really very different. It's
36:28
Speaker 12: having the bloody shirt or the bloody floorboard and looking
36:32
Speaker 12: at it and saying, aha, I have something, and you
36:35
Speaker 12: are right. I have something of the victim. I have
36:37
Speaker 12: something of the crime. I am inserting myself into the
36:40
Speaker 12: notoriety of this case, and I feel important because of it.
36:44
Speaker 12: It's really, you know, in one drop of blood is
36:48
Speaker 12: an entire world of English and hurt, the English of
36:52
Speaker 12: the families, the English of the victim, the English of
36:55
Speaker 12: the community. That the reverberating effect of the crime, and
36:59
Speaker 12: these people are clutching this one little relic and.
37:02
Speaker 13: They are happy.
37:03
Speaker 12: How different is that, Nancy than the perpetrator who acts out.
37:08
Speaker 12: I mean, there's a difference between impulse and action. These
37:11
Speaker 12: people are thinking the perpetrator is doing, but they're thinking
37:14
Speaker 12: the same thing the perpetrators thinking. They're just not acting
37:17
Speaker 12: out on it.
37:18
Speaker 1: Doctor Cerial Weck joining me, renowned pathologists who has seen
37:22
Speaker 1: so many high profile autopsies, performed them and been to
37:26
Speaker 1: so many crime scenes. Doctor wecked, in your opinion, what
37:33
Speaker 1: could have benefited this jury had they been able to
37:37
Speaker 1: go to the crime scene.
37:39
Speaker 11: I believe it would have been highly relevant for them
37:42
Speaker 11: who have gone to the crime scene and two have
37:46
Speaker 11: specifically visualized themselves from the sixth floor southeast core a
37:52
Speaker 11: window where they claim as well did the shooting, and
37:56
Speaker 11: then to replace themselves downstairs where the shots who were
38:02
Speaker 11: heard and see whether it fits in with the audio
38:06
Speaker 11: and with the video evidence. And also to have gone
38:11
Speaker 11: then to the grassy ole area, a short distance away
38:16
Speaker 11: where they claim where the critics claim there was a
38:19
Speaker 11: second shooter extremely important. I think the points that everybody
38:23
Speaker 11: has made are very valuable. There's no reason in the
38:27
Speaker 11: world to destroy a highly relevant crime scene unless it's
38:31
Speaker 11: imperative for purposes of some significant new construction.
38:36
Speaker 1: Doctor wag Do you are so right because just recently
38:41
Speaker 1: I went back to the site of the jfk assassination
38:46
Speaker 1: and it was completely different than anything I had ever
38:50
Speaker 1: read about or imagined. The grassy knoll, the book depository,
38:55
Speaker 1: the fence across.
38:57
Speaker 2: The knoll, the bridge for many people speculating the second
39:00
Speaker 2: shot was fired.
39:01
Speaker 1: It's completely different than anything I imagined. And when I
39:06
Speaker 1: say I want a true verdict on this case, I
39:09
Speaker 1: mean a true verdict. I don't mean a verdict based
39:11
Speaker 1: on speculation about what the crime scene may have.
39:14
Speaker 2: Been or what I thought it was. I mean what
39:17
Speaker 2: I know the crime scene is.
39:19
Speaker 1: I never tried a single case without visiting the crime scene.
39:24
Speaker 1: I think I hear Chris mcdonne jumping in, and you
39:27
Speaker 1: mentioned something earlier about acoustics and what could have.
39:30
Speaker 2: Been heard next door.
39:32
Speaker 1: Well, I think the jury's going to have a question
39:34
Speaker 1: about what the survivors heard Dylan and Bethany, and I'm
39:40
Speaker 1: just curious, will that mean an issue at trial which
39:44
Speaker 1: they could have figured that out if they could have
39:46
Speaker 1: gone to the scene.
39:47
Speaker 10: You know, Nancy, I think it's going to be I
39:50
Speaker 10: agree with you one hundred percent, because at this point,
39:53
Speaker 10: you know, the whole purpose of maintaining that crime scene,
39:58
Speaker 10: as we all know, is at one percent, just that
40:01
Speaker 10: one percent the ninety nine. Maybe there I either confidence
40:05
Speaker 10: of the state, et cetera, but it's that one juror
40:09
Speaker 10: that sits in that jury box and makes the determination
40:13
Speaker 10: of whether or not they believe the testimony that they're hearing.
40:17
Speaker 10: There's nothing that can replace the eye, all five senses
40:21
Speaker 10: being immersed into that crime scene. Did one of the
40:26
Speaker 10: witnesses hear the stairs creaking when she testifies that Coburger
40:32
Speaker 10: was coming down the stairs? Did she what did she
40:37
Speaker 10: look through her door? And if so, what was her
40:40
Speaker 10: vantage point in terms of visually? What could she she
40:43
Speaker 10: what could she feel? And it's going to go just
40:47
Speaker 10: like that, I think in the jury.
40:49
Speaker 12: And then you know, to add to that, what about
40:51
Speaker 12: would the jurorsy a teddy bear on one of the
40:55
Speaker 12: student's beds and they feel the reality that these were
40:58
Speaker 12: human beings. The collectors of murderabilia dehumanize the victims. But
41:02
Speaker 12: also beyond the sixth senses is the humanization of the
41:07
Speaker 12: young people who live there. As I was saying earlier,
41:10
Speaker 12: seeing that they may have had a frat party, or
41:12
Speaker 12: maybe there's a book lying around pertaining to a class
41:15
Speaker 12: they were taking, or some of their studies, a pair
41:17
Speaker 12: of sunglasses, a picture of them on a boat. To
41:21
Speaker 12: picture and feel the victims is a way to emphatically
41:25
Speaker 12: immerse yourself into what happened to them and who they
41:29
Speaker 12: were as human beings. And that's quite the opposite of
41:33
Speaker 12: these rules. As you refer to them that are just
41:36
Speaker 12: picking away at the scraps of that house. It's to
41:39
Speaker 12: make these young people real, and you can't do that
41:41
Speaker 12: by looking at a three D scan or a picture
41:44
Speaker 12: or blood spatter app evidence.
41:46
Speaker 1: Another issue is to Andy Kahn joining us, we have
41:50
Speaker 1: been told, of course, all the work was done am
41:54
Speaker 1: it was done under the darkness of the morning hours,
41:58
Speaker 1: that the remains of that home have been taken and
42:01
Speaker 1: buried and are being guarded by police. All you have
42:05
Speaker 1: to do is some search dump locations in Moscow Idaho,
42:09
Speaker 1: and I've already pulled up one, two, three, four, five, six,
42:12
Speaker 1: seven eight.
42:14
Speaker 2: Okay, So how.
42:15
Speaker 1: Hard is that going to be for these ghouls to
42:18
Speaker 1: locate it and wait for that one moment and get
42:23
Speaker 1: something of that home.
42:24
Speaker 4: There's a will, there's a way just looking anything else.
42:26
Speaker 4: We've seen prison guards take items from high profile killers.
42:31
Speaker 4: There was a prison guard, believe it or not, that
42:34
Speaker 4: got a hold of Jeffrey Dahmer's shaving kit once Dahmer
42:38
Speaker 4: was killed in prison and then put it.
42:40
Speaker 5: Up for sale.
42:41
Speaker 4: So there's you know, if you want something bad enough,
42:45
Speaker 4: you're gonna find a way to get it. And right now,
42:48
Speaker 4: in this day and age, Coburger is about as big
42:51
Speaker 4: a name as it gets in the murder billy industry.
42:55
Speaker 4: And anybody that can get a piece of anything that
42:58
Speaker 4: he has, any that's associated with him, and especially from
43:03
Speaker 4: a murder scene, it will be found and it will
43:06
Speaker 4: end up being sold in the open market.
43:08
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend,