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Killer Thriller: The Chilling Downward Spiral of Aaron Hernandez · Legally Brunette

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone,
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here and welcome to Killer Thriller. Today, we
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: are continuing our deep dive with forensic psychologist doctor Rachel
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: Toles into American Sports Story Aaron Hernandez, the series that
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: explores the shocking rise and fall of one of the
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: NFL's most talented and most troubling figures.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: One thing that also.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Stands out to me in this series is that how
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: many institutions kept pushing him forward because he was so talented,
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: whether it's the high school, college football, the NFL, and
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: there just are seemingly no consequences for these athletes and
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: the lawyers getting them out of all sorts of abominable behavior.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: And do you think that these.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Powerful systems sometimes unintentionally can enable dangerous behavior.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, here's the thing we reward as a society.
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: We reward whatever makes money and whatever's entertaining. So that
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: means that a person can be out of their mind,
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: completely out of their mind. But if they're entertaining, then
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: just keep paying them because because people are wanting more,
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: no one really worries about their mental stage. I mean,
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: how many people have been entertainers or you know.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: So many actors.
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I mean, I guess so many actors an actor familiar
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: names exactly, I.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: Mean actors they are. It is so fascinating. I often
• 1:40
  Speaker 3: compare because you know, Jack Nicholson had a very similar
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: upbringing to Ted Bundy, but there were a couple of
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: differences that then Jack Nicholson into who he became versus
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: Ted Bundy. Right, So you know, because no, because it's strange,
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: like just if you want, I can quickly tell.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: You that that's because yeah.
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so I'll just yeah. So basically they were
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: so this is it's a crazy story. A lot of
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: people don't know it. So when Ted Bundy so okay,
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: so okay, where do I start. So both Ted Bundy's
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: mother and Jack Nichols's mother got pregnant by a man
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: they didn't really know. So and this is at a
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: time where there was a lot of stigma. So your
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: child was going to be illegitimate, that's what they called them.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: You're an illegitimate child because it's outside of marriage. Right,
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: And both of these women, you know Ted Bundy's mother
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: first of all, Ted Bundy's mother tried to abort him.
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: She took an abortion pill, how he survived, and how
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: this pill affected his developing brain. I mean, these are
• 2:37
  Speaker 3: the things again we just think, oh, he was a
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: normal childhood. No he did not, and he also did
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: not have a normal brain. But anyway, so but he
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: he then she gave birth to him at the Home
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: for Unwed Mothers and and that's exactly what happened with
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: Jack Nicholson, you know. But they were brought home on
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: the one condition that the family maintained the fiction that
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: mom is the sister and that the grandparents of the parents,
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: and so that's how these guys were raised. So they
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: were raised believing that their mother was their sister.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: And they can't really.
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: Bond that much because the neighbors will catch on. So
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: there's not a whole lot of good attachment that's probably
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: going on there, right. But the difference is for Ted Bundy,
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: is that his grandmother, who played the role of his mother,
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: was in an out of mental hospitals receiving shock treatment,
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: and so he couldn't really bond with her either. And
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: then Grandpa Sam was a really like scary, raging alcoholic.
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  Speaker 3: He was doing all sorts of things was Jack Nicholson's
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: grandfather was not as violent or abusive or anything like that.
• 3:40
  Speaker 3: And he was also really he was, you know, encouraged
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: to get into the arts and.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: To express to express themselves, express it creatively.
• 3:51
  Speaker 3: And so he played the role of the joker. He
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: played the role of you know, I think Jack and
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: the Shining or what's his nag. Yeah, so he's playing
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: these roles, but then he of course lives this other life,
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: whereas Ted Bundy is the roles you know, So like right,
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  Speaker 3: you know, Jack Nicholson didn't find out that his family
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: was a lie until he read about it in Time
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  Speaker 3: magazine in nineteen seventy four.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Oh my god.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, we are definitely having you back to talking about
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: these things.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: I apologize all I go up to listen.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: I want to hear all of it. But okay, let's
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: get back to Aaron Hernandez for a minute. Okay, So
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: Urban Meyer, who was the coach at Florida University of Florida. Yes,
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: him pushing Aaron to graduate early and come to Florida
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: is really a pretty striking thing in hindsight, and the
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: series really shows that no one ever slowed down to
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: care about his him, his psychological life, and whether he
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: was emotionally able to do that. How hard is it
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: to focus on the trauma while not excusing the violence.
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: I mean for me, it's it's you know, that's the
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: number one thing I focus on. To me, I think
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: we're all I look at all human beings as like
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: little kindergarteners. I mean I'm not again, but like if
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: you think about everybody in your life, who anybody who
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: is your age or older, you know exactly who they
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: were in kindergarten because we haven't changed that much from
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: when we were four or five years old. We just
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: are kind of the same essence, if you will. And
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: so for me, I think as a society, we're really
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: good at accusing other people of having no empathy, but
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: we're not really good at looking at the lack of
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: empathy we feel for the people we accuse. And I
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: think that's one of my biggest issues. It's like, we're
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: great at accusing other people of lacking empathy, but when
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: we don't have empathy for them, what's up with that?
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Why aren't we asking rights?
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: For me? I have a great deal of compassion for
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  Speaker 3: the child that became the man who then completely unraveled
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: and basically re enacted things that he didn't he was
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: unable to put together properly in his brain. And that's
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: basically what we're talking about with almost all murder cases
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: and what because most people aren't killers, they don't go
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: malfunction like this. So I have absolute compassion and curiosity
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: about the people who malfunction. I absolutely do not excuse
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: so for me, I don't find I mean, of course,
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: with Odin Lloyd, I mean, it is so tragic and
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: I feel horrible for the fambos. Number One, you have
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: to always feel sympathy and show respect for the victim
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: and for their loved ones, because again, it's just unfortunate
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: that sometimes you've just got an innocent person who just
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: gets caught in the crossfire of someone awfunctioning. And so,
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: but when you look at somebody like Aaron Hernandez, it's
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: kind of like like he really is like a bus
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: that like malfunctioned. And we don't call buses bad, like
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: some buses are just bad. It's like or something in
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: the wiring malfunctioned and cause the bus to go off
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  Speaker 3: the rails and kill one or possibly more people Like
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: this is we don't. But by labeling it again, we're
• 7:07
  Speaker 3: not actually then looking at how a person could get there.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Right the source and how we get there.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: So this also the show also talks about how football
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: gave Aaron structure and identity. So what happens when somebody's
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: entire self worth gets tied to performance?
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's it. I mean that right there
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  Speaker 3: is What the problem is with a lot of people
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  Speaker 3: who kill is that if their entire identity is about performance,
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  Speaker 3: then what's going on inside? And if there's not really
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  Speaker 3: a deep connection inside, then that's where the mental illness
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  Speaker 3: can really kind of spiral out of control because there's
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: not really a connection to self to know what am
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: I actually up to? Here the introspection, it's like I
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: have to perform to survive. Basically he learned his whole
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: like it was all about survival and that's it. Like
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  Speaker 3: I have to perform to survive. I have to perform
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  Speaker 3: being straight guy. I have to perform being football guy
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  Speaker 3: who wins. I have to win it all. I have
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  Speaker 3: to perform whatever Dad wanted, and I'm not lovable otherwise.
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  Speaker 3: Like all they know is they're fighting for their life
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  Speaker 3: to survive, and that's what the performance is. But it's
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  Speaker 3: such a hypervigilance that for them to stop and say,
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  Speaker 3: wait a minute, who am I? I mean, that doesn't
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  Speaker 3: really cross there. It's not about who they are. It's
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: all about survival. And if it's all about survival, then
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  Speaker 3: it is all about in the moment, I have to
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  Speaker 3: dominate in order to survive. I have to do whatever
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: it takes to survive. And then of course you add
• 8:45
  Speaker 3: the alcohol, the drugs, the things that are causing them
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  Speaker 3: to malfunction, then the reality again goes out the window
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  Speaker 3: to the point where whoever's in their way or whoever's
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  Speaker 3: going to be a threat to their survival needs to
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  Speaker 3: be removed. And because it's all there's a level of
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: performance with all of it, it doesn't feel as real
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  Speaker 3: as it would for other people.
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  Speaker 1: Right, and then the fame as well.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: The fame has to have some major impact, right because
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  Speaker 2: do you think the high profile athletes in particular, because
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  Speaker 2: it's also tied to the real true performance, so they
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  Speaker 2: lose normal social boundaries and consequences.
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  Speaker 3: Because there's a godlike quality. Because if you think about dominance,
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  Speaker 3: when you're dominating on the field, if you're doinan when
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  Speaker 3: people if they do murder and then they want to
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  Speaker 3: murder again, they experience a high from the dominance of
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  Speaker 3: that because it feels like they are godlike. So whatever,
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: there feels like this level of omnipotence, which is the
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: feeling of being all powerful like God. It's like the
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: sense of I am God. And if you're God, and
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: if the world is treating you like God, there are
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: no rules. The rules don't apply to you. And then
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  Speaker 3: there's a sense of whatever I want, I can take
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: and I can get away with anything, and and it's
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: and you know, and and I'm sure he got away
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: with some things we will never know about because over
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: time you just you just realize, yeah, the rules don't apply.
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: And for a long time that does work.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: And then how much of an impact does the homosexuality
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: and having to hide that on top of it's quite
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: a soup?
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, exactly, it's it's everything. So there's so he,
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: according to his brother in the book, started getting sexually
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: abused regularly at the age of seven, I think around
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: around seven by a babysitter. They were dropped off at
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: the home to where they were to be babysat and
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: uh and this was happening regularly, so he was of
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: course carrying this secret. And then and just and and
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: this is the thing with kids, like even with sexual abuse,
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: there's this it's a deep, dark secret you don't tell parents.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: And boy boys, by the way, boys way under report.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: In the series, they said it was is an uncle
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: and not a babysitter.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: But yeah, well in the book that his brother wrote,
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: the brother said it was a babysitter. So I'm not
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: really sure who it was, but it wouldn't surprise me
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: if it was coming Unfortunately from different directions, because there
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: is also some evidence from some people who've talked about
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: and gone on records said that Aaron's father was also
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: a victim of childhood sexual abuse. So like these things
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: sometimes just keep getting passed down. Unfortunately. The thing is
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: with boys is they way under report, and we don't
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: talk about that. If you look at the statistics, it
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: looks like girls are getting targeted way more, but girls
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: are way more open eventually about talking about it, whereas
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: boys there's so much shame because then if you think
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: about ones that then do realize they're gay, and then
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: it's like just what it means in society. It's all
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: of it. It's just what is manhood. So it's all
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: you know. So he had to repress, repress, repress, and
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: not talk about a lot of these things because Yeah, predators,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: by the way, often say they don't go after girls
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: because girls talk too much. So that's why they go
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: after boys. Wow, because boys do not report it as
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: much as it happened. So anyway, but yeah, so on
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: top of like the traumas of that, and the other
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: thing is is what's confusing to a child if they
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: are being targeted, is that there's there's an element to
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: sexual abuse that sometimes feels good, and then if you
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: are getting pleasure from that, then you start to blame yourself,
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: like then I'm asking for this and maybe you know,
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: so then you just start blaming yourself. And then of
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: course the predator can often they'll say things like, well
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: you you seduced me. They'll they'll turn it around, they're
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: very good, and then you think, oh, yeah, I guess
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: maybe I did seduce. And so on top of that
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: deep dark secret, so where he's wetting the bed and
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: his father's getting angry at him about whitting the bed
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: and there's all these secrets going on, and then having
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: this secret later on of being gay and what that
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: means in football culture, what that means to be a man,
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: and his father calling him and all these things piling
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: and piling and pile like I mean absolutely, And then
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: of course, and I don't know if in this, in this,
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: in this uh series, if they looked at how he
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: would get drunk and openly flirt with male bartenders, and
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: that his friend, a friend of his would say, Aaron,
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: you can't do this here. This is Hollywood. You're gonna
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: be on TMZ in two days.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, So they don't do that as much.
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: There are a couple of moments where he they have
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: it more that it's he's hiding it.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: Certainly.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: There are a couple of moments where he does something
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: a little demonstrative.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, sort of brushed over a
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: little bit, but.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: They really do show, you know, that he had a
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: somewhat meaningful relationship with with another boy in high school
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: when they were growing up, and that thing.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: Of it could be you know, it's heartbreaking because.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: You think, like this is is a there's a true
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: connection that these two young boys had, both in a
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: in a physical way, but in an emotional way. And
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: it's just very clear that that was just unacceptable, like
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: unimaginable for him, like the judgment that he had on himself.
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: That's right, and some people say they really did they
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: fell in love. I mean that's sort of he fell
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: in love with this guy. I mean like that it
• 14:17
  Speaker 3: was there and that yeah, that in another world. I'm
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: sure there are moments of like, in another world we
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: could be together, you know, yeah, you know, but unfortunately
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: not this world, and that's devastating. So each moment for
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: real connection and then even like you know, and I'm
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: sure he loved his fancee, but like there's also probably
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: a level of performance of like how I have to
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: be in that relationship like whatever that was. Like, I mean,
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: of course he loved her. I know they were close
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: friends and of course, uh, you know, and I'm not
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: sure how in love with I mean, I know that
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: there was a deep love, and it's just the whole
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: thing is just one tragic thing after another.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: I feel like this show does a really nice job
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: of that too, of kind of showing some of the
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: complexity of their relationship and then her needing to stay
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: by his side, which you can imagine as your partner
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: and your friend and the father of your child, but
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: then also her anger like it's it is.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: It's just one tragic thing after another.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: And then of course I mean, and this is where
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: and I don't know what they did in this series,
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: but like, so Aarin two nights before Odin is killed,
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: he spends the evening with Odin, like intel. They're together
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: till eleven am the next day, and when Aaron gets home,
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: he finds his mom and fiance waiting for brunch, and
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: they watch as Aaron hands Odin the keys to the
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: rental car and reminding him to return it. Aaron's drunk
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: as a skunk and wearing different clothes than the ones
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: he had on the night before. Two nights later, Aaron
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: picks Odin up again, and within hours he shot dead.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: So the question is like, like there are three, like
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: why did Aaron kill Odin? Because I think this is
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: the question on so many people's mind. Is it because
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: maybe there was something where Aaron may have even you know,
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: came out to him, or something in a panic of
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: shame and fear of exposure killed him. Or did Odin
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: know something about Aaron's criminal activities that put him at
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: risk or obviously did his paranoid to lose and finally
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: just get the best of him. I mean, prosecutors are
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: argue that Hernandez believe that Lloyd had either talked too much,
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: knew too much, or could no longer be trusted. But
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: it's like because he said something like you can't trust
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: anyone anymore, but it's trust him with what, like is
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: it something that like he knew about, for example, potentral
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: Boston murders, Like what are we talking about here? Like that?
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: That's kind of how they cover it in the in
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: the series, that it's certainly a little blurry for him,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: but that he's insinuating that Odin knows something about Boston,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: about the other murders, and they don't really suggest that
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: it could be anything about his sexuality, but certainly more
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: that he could have said something and doesn't remember that
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: he told him and then spirals into like the paranoia
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: about it. So the relationship that Aaron had with his
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: cousin Tanya Singleton, she died from cancer in twenty fifteen
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: in the show, and I think from what I've read
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: this is real in life that it's portrayed as one
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: of the few places where Aarin seemed to be emotionally exposed.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: So do violent offenders sometimes still maintain deeply meaningful relationships emotional.
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean again, even talking about like serial killers,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: they can absolutely love their wives and their children, and
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: they do love them. They know how to love. They
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: just compartmentalize and the other people who they kill, they're
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: in a different section. They're as for whatever reason, like
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: they just become the target of whatever. So absolutely, I mean, Tanya,
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: that whole story is fascinating, probably because you know that,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: like he finds out that is like, so on top
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: of his father dying at sixteen, father dies suddenly, then
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: it comes to life that Aaron's mom has been secretly
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: having sex with his cousin, Tanya's husband, and then they
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: become a couple. That's a huge scandal. So Aerin at
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: that moment hates his mother. He moves in with Tanya,
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: and so then of course she has friends that have
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: criminal records, and that's where he starts smoking a lot
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: of weed. But she's the only one at that point
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: that knows his secrets. He comes out to her and
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: he tells her she's the only person at that time
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: he felt safe with her, and he told her he's gay,
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: and she took it to the grave. She didn't tell anybody.
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: She was very loyal. Wow.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: So they kind of alludes to that that she may
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: they may have been transparent, but they don't outwardly say
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: it in this series.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, she is the only one that knew his secret
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: and she took it to the grave because obviously he
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: didn't come out about being gay till he was in prison,
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: and he tells his mother, but he you know, but
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: the whole it's it's very u But yeah, Tanya was
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: one of his most important people, like his true confidant.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: And she really is like a safety blanket, the only
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: place to feel safe.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: And and you know, so I read in the Boston
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Globe according to this article that Aaron once said to
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Tanya during a jail house visit, I'm just one empty
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: person and I've been like that for so long. So
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: when someone describes themselves that way, is that clinically meaningful?
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: It can be. I mean, you know, people love to
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: be armchair psychologists when it comes through things.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Not me, not me, not you.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: No, I'm kidding, definitely, definitely, but just when it comes
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: to personality disorders and it drives me bananas.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Right now, I'm writing a book that's going to be
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: coming outfall of twenty twenty seven called Inventing the Psychopath
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: where I not just examine how we basically invented psychopathy
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: as a concept, but then on top of that, when
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: we talk about personality disorders like borderline and narcissistic personality
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: and anti social, these these are you know, when people Again,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: these are labels that we slap onto people. And one
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: of the things when it comes to borderline personality disorder,
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: and it's true, clinically you can say that that is
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: the personality disorder that somebody has. If they have chronic
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: feelings of emptiness, we know that that is definitely something
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: clinically that shows up. But and so yeah, so we
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: can look at the symptoms and we can look at
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: the behaviors, and I have no issues with that. My
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: issue is that things like the label of borderline or narcissistic,
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: they get thrown around so much that immediately then we
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: label the person that we stop treating them like human beings.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: That's what you are, and that's what matter. You're a borderliner,
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: You're a narcissist. And these are things like we know,
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: with all personality disorders, just like with this concept of psychopathy,
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: which is not an official diagnosis, it's just like a theory. Basically,
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: these things all come from trauma. They all come from trauma.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: And it's not like a narcissist really likes themselves. They
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: tend to hate themselves, and so it's a matter across
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: the board they do. They don't like to be in
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: their own skin. So that's why they're so defended and
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: they're always playing the role. Getting back to the idea
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: of the performance, right, it's all defense, defense, defense, and
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: so if you suffer enough trauma, you're gonna have different defenses.
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: And yes, males are more likely to develop the the
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: defense of narcissistic personality disorder, and females are more likely
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: to develop the defense of borderline personality or But now,
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: because these terms have been sullied so much, actually we
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: need to get different terms from them. They're just again
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: lack of empathy the minute you throw out those terms.
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: So but yes, clinically that chronic those feelings of appionist
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: is it can be linked with the personality sort of
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: borderline personality sort which is like something of being split.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit about the media influence here.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: So Aaron goes back to court a trial for the
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: murder of the two people in the car in Boston,
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: and he is found not guilty of that.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Then two days later, these talk show.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Hosts which I don't even want to say who they are,
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: have this conversation and they have a guest on who
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Basically they start to inflame this whole thing and out
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Aaron Hernandez as being gay, and then is it the
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: following day or two days later, he commits suicide in jail.
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: So how much responsibility does the media hold for these
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: sorts of things in your opinion?
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: I mean it's tough because unfortunately, when you have a
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: public personality, I mean, when you're public facing and this
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: is your job and now you're you're famous like Aaron
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: Hernandez or whatever, people do feel like they have the
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: rights to talk publicly about you in every single way.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: I mean, the media does it all the time. Whatever sells,
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: let's get that salacious story, like, let's get it, you know,
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: happening and so people. But as far as responsibility, I
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: think it's I am not a fan with how the
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: media handles a lot of things. I don't think we
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: should be advertising the names of mass shooters because it's
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: just basically a how to guide to become famous, and
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: so they're different things. So yes, I think that when
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: it comes you know, Aaron him taking his own life,
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: it could I mean obviously potentially had in part to
• 24:05
  Speaker 3: do with that, but I think it was again a
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: whole bunch of things that just piled. But yes, that
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: might have been the straw that broke the camel's back.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: We just don't know exactly what it was. But yes,
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: I think we need to be we need to be
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: a lot more cognizant and kind when it comes to
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: the people we talk about, because these are human beings,
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: and it's so easy to look at somebody once they're
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: an idea, once they're a character in the like people
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: look at like that they're a character, that they're not
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: a real person. So then they treat them that way,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: and it's like that this is a human being who
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: has feelings and it's just doing their best. We're all
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: just doing our best.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: We you know, we really are.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: And if we can think about humans that way, then
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: again maybe we can have more compassion for them, because
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: you know, most humans want to have a good life
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: and have connection with other human beings, and it is
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: it's the lack of conne that causes either suicide or
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: homicide period across the board.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Right right.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: And it's such a complex relationship between fame and the
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: public and how we all seem to want that and them,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: and then you want to demonize the people who have
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: it because you don't have it, like it's so and
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: it's all in layer. I mean, that's a whole other show.
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: I can talk about that, but it's very complicated. And
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: people often do look at people in the public eye
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: and assume they have every opportunity, every resource, so they
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: should they're held to a different standard. And I.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: Agree with that to a certain degree.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Like, yes, you if you've achieved a certain amount of
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: success and fame such that you know, people know who
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: you are and they appreciate what you do.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: Then I think there is a you.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Need to sort of reflect being a good person and
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff.
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: Once you have a certain something, Yes, the public feels
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: like they have more access to you, and yes, there
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: are certain ways that you do have maybe more responsibility
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: to ideally because you also the people who have a
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: lot of young people looking up to them, you got
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: to think about, like, Okay, what's your responsibility to those
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: young people and what kind of role model do you
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: want to be because you're giving them hope about what
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: the future is going to be, and in some ways,
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: I do think that carries a lot of responsibility. So
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: in each way, everyone has their own roles. And then
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: you know, of course, if you're playing the role of
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: you know, someone who's kind of like dark and then yeah,
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: then you can play that role and you can continue.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: But like if you're playing the role of kind of
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: like the all American something or like I mean, something
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: like Taylor Swift for example, like I think has to
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: on some level carry herself in a certain way because
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: she has a lot of responsibility for these young people
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: that are looking up or her like they want to
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: be her. And so it's just so it's tricky. Obviously
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: it's straight. There's no rule book, right, but you just
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: on some level you need to know where your boundaries
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: are and who you're being and what your reason for
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: being that because ideally, if you want to make the
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: world a better place, then you know, make choices in
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: that direction.
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Right, Okay, does one more or maybe two things about
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Aaron Hernandez.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: So looking back, do you think that intervention for him.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Was realistically possible at any point in time?
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it would have been. I mean the thing is okay,
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: so something that again going back to this is where
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: it gets tricky because he doesn't even realize. You know,
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: it's some like he doesn't realize he is suffering from
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: serious brain damage. Just to go through the list, I
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: know I kind of mentioned, but it's at age seven,
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: he gets multiple concussions from tackle football. At eight, hammer
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: strikes him on the head so hard that blood pours
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: out of his nose and ears, knocking him unconscious. But
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: of course the high school football field is when the
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: damage really accelerates. And of course then it's later revealed
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: that Aaron has the most extreme case of chronic traumatic
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: encephalopathy ever documented in someone his age. His brain is
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: deteriorating at an alarming rate. So the lesions that were
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: mentioned on amigdala and frontal lobe, which are areas responsible
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: for regulating aggression, impulsivity, poor moral judgment, paranoia, that kind
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: of stuff. Of course, he exhibits all of the above,
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: So you know that, like, yes, his brain is already declining.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's deteriorating. But then you've got the drugs
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: and the alcohol and those kinds of things. And I
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: just think, and I say this with across the board
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: with offenders, somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer, I believe that had
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: Jeffrey Dahmer not been an alcoholic, I don't think he
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: would have turned into a serial killer. Alcohol and drugs
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: when you have already got a compromised brain for whatever reasons,
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: because you were exposed to various things and you have
• 28:59
  Speaker 3: not process them properly. Now your brain is, like I
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: mentioned earlier, compromised. That is the number one thing. And
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: I tell people, if you're afraid you're going to be violent,
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: you need to stay away from substances because of the
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: substances that really tip you over the edge, because you'll
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: go into that dream state because the alcohol or the
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: drugs are hitting the areas that are already compromised in
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: your brain, and then you're just like you lose reality.
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: And that's not like the normal person who doesn't have
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: a damaged brain like that. So that's where yes, intervention,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: had they got him sober somehow, I mean, again, what
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: do you do you can't lock him up. I mean,
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: they did lock him up, but like you can't before
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: he you know, murders. Ideally, Uh, there could have been
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: a major interventions where like they you know, they they
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: they you know, and then it's like how was he
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: still playing football? If he was you know, was he
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: being drug tested? Like I don't even know how any
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: of that.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Like these are all those things, you.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Know, these are the confusing things, like he's drug tested,
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: he needed to be you know, you know, put on
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: and all.
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: That, and the nfl IS says that he never failed
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: a drug test over the course of his career.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: But like, okay, I believe that, like I believe, you know.
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: Yes, or he gave them different urine and they didn't
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: bother thinking that they should probably watch him pee in
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: a whatever like whatever whatever the test was, he may
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: have fooled them, but I don't know how. Like I
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: think he was on drugs, so I don't know how
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: he got you know, I think you've got to watch
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: him with them. So yes, there should have been intro
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: I think the number one thing in all of these cases,
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: you know, needs to be number drugs now call need
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: to be removed in every way possible, and and I
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: know that that's hard because what they're the reason why
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: they're doing the drugs now calls because they're numbing the pain.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: They don't want to fake.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: So that's the tricky circular.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: And then the machine has to keep going that, he
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: has to keep performing. So those spoaches are not going
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: to do that. The NFL is not going to do that, right, yes, exactly. Well,
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: we're just going to have you back like like every
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: week or.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Something because there are so many more things that I
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: would love to talk with you about. And I just
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: love this format because you get to really have a
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: longer conversation about things instead of you know, I really
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: appreciate that.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: So thank you for all your time. Thank you tell
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: us your website.
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so my website is d r so doctor Rachel
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: r a c h e l Tolls t O l
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: e s dot com. So Dr Racheltolls dot com and
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: you can reach me there. You can also find me
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: on socials like Instagram. T O l z h a
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: u S Tolls House is my handle, but you can
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: just find me under doctor Rachel Toles as well. That's great, TikTok, Insta, Facebook, a.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: Lot and we'll put all that in the notes.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: And the American Sports Story Aaron Hernandez is streaming on Hulu,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: which is the narrative series that we spoke about. Doctor Rachel,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: You're just uh, this has been wonderful and I really
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: appreciate your time.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing much a pleasure.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: I've really enjoyed this conversation. Yes, I look forward to
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: having more in the future.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Perfect. Thank you so much.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: Thank you, M. M.