Latest / Hurdle with Emily Abbate / 288. Chasing Your Big Potential: 'Marie Claire' Editor-In-Chief Nikki Ogunnaike On Leveling Up In Your Career & Beyond

Transcript

288. Chasing Your Big Potential: 'Marie Claire' Editor-In-Chief Nikki Ogunnaike On Leveling Up In Your Career & Beyond · Hurdle with Emily Abbate

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You can step up to that starting line at the
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: race and be like, I don't know. I don't know
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: how it's going to go today. But you have your
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: fourteen weeks, your twelve eight weeks of training in your
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: back pocket, and so you just have to trust your training.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: You don't know how the race is going to go,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: but you have to have faith in the work that
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: you've done to get to this point. It's worked for
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: me and running, and it continues to work for me
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: in my career.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: What's going on? Everyone, Emily A body here. You are
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: listening to episode two hundred.
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: And eighty eight of Hurdle, a wellness focused podcast where
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: I talk to inspirational people about everything up from their
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: highest hies and toughest moments to essential tips on how
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: to live a healthier, happier, more motivated life. We all
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: go through our fair share of hurdles. My goal through
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: these discussions to empower you to better navigate yours and
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: move with intention so that you can stride towards your
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: own big potential.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: And of course have some fun along the way.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: For today's episode, I am elated to bring you my
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: conversation with nicki Oganaki. She is the editor in chief
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: of Marie Claire and a dear, dear friend of mine.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: Nicki and I met through the industry god knows how
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: long ago, and have had the opportunity not only to share.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Many trips, many runs, many.
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Glasses of wine together over the years, and we're going
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: to talk about all of that in today's episode. I
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: candidly am so inspired by Nicki. She is one of
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: those friends that when I spend time with her, she
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: makes me want to be a better version of myself.
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: She's so motivated and driven, as you can tell when
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: she talks to you about her impressive career journey getting
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: to this point where she is now at the head
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: the boss of Marie Claire, arguably one of the most
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: popular woman's magazines in existence. She also opens up about
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: her relationship with exercise and the different things that she
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: does in her day to day to feel at home
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: in her body. But as I told Niki before she
• 2:19
  Speaker 3: walked in today, I was really excited about the opportunity
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: to sit down with her because she is so motivated
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: and so driven. She gives so many excellent tips for
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: anyone who is trying to find their way within their career.
• 2:32
  Speaker 3: In today's episode, as well as how to stay resilient
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: when things don't go your way. Plus, she answers the
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: question that so many people hit me within the DMS
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: on the regular, how do you own your no? How
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: do you say yes to the things that empower you
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: and respectfully step away from the slew of invites or
• 2:53
  Speaker 3: hangouts or whatever else may not be serving you in
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: the moment. It's sometimes, for sure, easier said than done.
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: Make sure you're following along with us over on social
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: The show is over at Hurdle Podcast. I am over
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: at Emily a Body And if you're not yet subscribed
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: to the weekly Hurdle newsletter, I want you to get
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: the same inspiration, motivation and stuff you love from the
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: show directly in your inbox every single Friday. The link
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: to do that, it's absolutely free, is in the show notes.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: With that, let's get to it. Let's get to hurdling. Today.
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: I'm sitting down with my dear friend Nikki Oganaki. She's
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: the editor in chief of Marie Claire. How are you
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: doing today? I'm so excited to be here.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: I have this is like it's been a long time coming.
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: This is like the longest time coming. And it's so
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: funny because there have been so many evolutions of Niki,
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: probably since like it was first something that was discussed
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: when I introduce you as I just did.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Do you still have a second where you're like, holy crap.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: I mean up until probably two months ago, I would
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: be like, oh, yeah, I'm the digital director at Harper's Bazaar.
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: I'm like, that's actually not my job anymore.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Editor in chief is interesting because I'm not surprised to
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: find myself in this role, but there are moments where
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: I'm like, Oh, I'm the one in charge.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: Who let that happen? How did this happen to me?
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Yeah, such a cool sentence. I'm the
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: one in charge. I personally would have a hard time
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: owning that sentence.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, but you realize if you're not going to own it, like.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: Who who will? One hundred percent.
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: When you were coming up as a journalist, did you
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: anticipate that this kind of path was the one that
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: you'd be after Not at all. Yeah.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: I did not anticipate this path at all, mostly because
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: I've never really seen people who look like me in
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: this role, and I've never when I graduated from college
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: in two thousand and seven, I like digital was barely
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: a thing, you know, like we had websites kind of,
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: and you know that's not even like really to date myself.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: That was just like, yeah, they just weren't that big
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: of a deal.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: And you know, when I was an assistant and a
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: junior editor, I thought that I was going to be
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: a market director, which is in the fashion the fashion department,
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: and they're the people who sort of like liaise with
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: the stylists and the photographers who make sure that everyone
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: has the clothing that they need on set. And I
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: quickly realized that I didn't necessarily want to do that.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: I wanted to write more.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: I wanted to have freedom and what I was covering
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: and the things that i'd be able to do where
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: i'd events i'd be able to go to, and working
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: on websites, and digital just like afforded me that.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so you ended up spending more time doing
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: something that at first you didn't necessarily think was going
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: to be your jam.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Right, And then I think as I progressed in my career,
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: it just slowly but surely became a sort of situation
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: where I was like, oh, I can do that, and
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: I can do that, and I can do that, and
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: I guess that's what being an editor in chief.
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: Does, is yeah, And so I'm here.
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: I can do all the things, and now there's just.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: The title with it. Now there's just a title with it.
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: Appropriately so because so many people do all the things
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: and there's absolutely no title, no money with it. It's
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: just like the way of the journalism industry at this point, right.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: And I was telling I didn't an interview a week ago,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: and I was telling the journalists that this job as
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: an editor in chief is bigger than it ever has
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: been before. When I started at Bizarre, I read Tina
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Brown's memoir The Vanity Fair Dye, which is an incredible
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: read if anyone hasn't read it. It sort of talks
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: about what her journey was like in the eighties and
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: the nineties being editor in chief of Vanity Fair. And
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: not to diminish her job in any way, because she
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: is like one of the best of the best, but
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of the job was, you know, giving parties,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: dinner parties and and schmoozing with people. And she basically
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: invented the Vanity Fair party and so doing that sort
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: of stuff along with the writing and the editing. But
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: there was no social media, there was no video, there
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: was no you know, TikTok you being an influencer yourself.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: There was just like the words.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: So now this job has grown, you know, three four
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: times what I could have ever imagined it becoming.
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's also so interesting because I feel
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: as though it's so much more of these days, to
• 7:48
  Speaker 3: your point than being a figurehead when you're talking about
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: the Vanity Fair diaries and like having to be a
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: schmoozer like that essentially is bizarre to think that someone
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: is at the forefront quote unquote, they're in charge, right,
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: and they're getting paid all of this money to do
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: a fraction of the things actually at that time, back
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: in the day, that someone like an editorial assistant or
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: an assistant editor or a regular like all of these
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: lower quote unquote lesser roles.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's easy to.
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: Find resentment in that, at least I'm speaking from personal experience, right.
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: And it's funny because you know, the job is big.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: I don't make nearly as much as as Tina Brown made.
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: Back then, does anyone?
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: I don't know, probably not, But yeah, it's just a
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: lot bigger than it ever could have I could have
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: ever imagined it to be. I think that I'm happy
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: having a little bit of everything on my plate.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: How does it feel to be a leader?
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: How does it feel to be a leader? It depends
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: on the day. Honestly, some days it's incredibly gratifying. Some
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: days it's like some of the hardest things that I've
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: ever done. You are not taught to be a leader. Really,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: I think you have it somewhere innately, it's within you,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: and then you can read books or work with coaches
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: or whatever to sort of like develop and grow and
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: harness those tools. But the day to day is it's different.
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: It's kind of it can just combobulate you some days,
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: it can really fill you up other days.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: What do you think has been foundationally important to you
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: yourself as you've stepped into your power as a leader.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: I like to talk about like when I became a
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: digital director at Bizarre versus how I've entered into editor
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: in chief of Marie Claire. And the biggest difference, I
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: think is that I care less about what people think
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: about me as a person. Honestly, I was very concerned
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: about how I would be perceived by my staff when
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: I started at Bizarre, how I would be perceived as
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: a black woman who was entering into that role for
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: the very first time. When I was at Bizarre and
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: now at MC, I just kind of care less about
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: it all. I think it's in part it's because it's
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: a less charged time. Like I started at Bizarre in
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty. You know, we were having a racial reckoning,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: we were having a media reckoning all at the same time.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: So it's a less charge time now to become editor
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: in chief. But I think also in the three years
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: that I was at Bizarre, I just sort of learned
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: what I really need to care about and what I didn't,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: and so I've actively work to sort of like leave
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff behind.
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: How does someone care less?
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I think somebody cares less in practice. I don't know
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: how to describe to care less. I think it's practice.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: I think it's like honestly growing up. I think it's.
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: Well, let's flip it for you, right, because obviously there
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: was a moment I'm assuming that you realized caring so
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: much about the opinions of others wasn't serving you. Can
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: you articulate or maybe land on when that was for you. Yes,
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: I can't.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Actually, I think think that the moment I realized that
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: I was being kept up late at night and maybe
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: other people weren't, and my health was being diminished and
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: other people were like fine in coasting, I was like,
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: wait a second, hold on, I am like dying inside
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: and I'm you know, like crying at night or like
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: just so concerned, and everyone seems to be just fine.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: And I was like, well, well that can't be the
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: way things are anymore. And so yeah, there was sort
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: of that flip where I was just sort of like
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: I can't sacrifice myself, my well being, my mental health
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: and everyone else is just fine.
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah. We call that on the show a hurdle moment.
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: I had a hurdle moment. And in that hurdle moment,
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: you said mental health, physical health. How was this like
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: manifesting for you when you realize that these anxieties were
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: really impacting you.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: I just always felt on edge, like people would be
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: like how are you? And I always felt like I
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: was about to cry. You know that feeling where you're
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: just like I'm fine, in your throat like breaks a
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: little bit and you're like is that a tear I
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: said I was fine, but I don't know if I'm fine,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: And so just really tapping into that and realizing that,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: like I wasn't working out as much and that was
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: affecting my mental health, and I wasn't getting as much
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: sleep as I was before, and sort of just working
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: through all of those things and getting back into a
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: fitness habit and getting back into you know, just like
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: waking up early and having coffee and a bit of
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: a morning routine.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: All of that was really useful. Yeah, And it's it
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: seems or sounds from the get go like it can
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: be interpreted two ways. It can be interpreted as like
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: those things seem like very accessible and very easy. Or
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: for someone who feels as though they're struggling with all
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: of those things you just talked about a morning routine
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: and finding more sleep, it's like, yeah, but where do
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: I begin?
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: You just choose one thing, Like you honestly, just choose
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: one thing and try and stick to that.
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: A lot of people are.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Like, you choose one thing and you stick to it,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: bit stick to it for thirty days, or you stick
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: to it for ninety days. Like I'm not an expert
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: in that way, but I have found that when I
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: look back on when I have felt my best and
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: involved some sort of morning fitness, and you start small,
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: maybe that's thirty minutes, forty five minutes, twenty minutes, just
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: not feeling like rushed in the morning, and so waking
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: up a little bit earlier to have the time to
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: go through that morning routine and just being cognizant of
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: when I haven't been doing those things how I feel
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: versus when I do do those things.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think such a big part of that.
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: I love the tip that you offered about starting small.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: A really big part of this when you say like
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: notice is also maybe like actually making note right, because
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: if you don't have the time or like the know
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: how maybe to reflect on how you're feeling in all
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: of the different phases, whether it's when you're sticking with
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: something or you're completely off of the bandwagon, then you
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: won't really realize how it's truly making you feel. Yeah.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: And I have learned for me personally that like I'm
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: a planners. You know, I'm a planner, So I like
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: to write down the workout in the morning. I like
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: to block off the chunk of time I've realized for
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: me like, working out for me in the morning is
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: great because I feel like I'm giving myself something before
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: I turn myself over to the team and everyone else
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: who will want a piece, you know, later in the day.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: And so just honestly just being cognizant of that, writing
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: it down, planning ahead the way you would plan anything.
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: Else in your life. Yeah, a meeting with yourself for you,
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: I know that. And as you've like kind of pointed
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: out the things that make you feel most like you
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: the best in your body have a lot to do
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: with health and wellness. Talk to me about what your
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: relationship has been with wellness over the years as you
• 14:43
  Speaker 3: have stepped into arguably bigger roles within your career.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: I recently realized that I've hit my ten year running anniversary,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: my runniversary, thank you so much.
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: So.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: In twenty fourteen, I was working at Glamour and I
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: decided that I wanted to run. I wanted to achieve
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: a goal that had nothing to do with work. I
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: had like that was what I wanted to give myself,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: and so I set out and I was like, why
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: don't I run a half marathon? And then that turned
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: into you know, all of the stuff that comes around
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: like sort of running half marathon, so weightlifting and plates
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: and yoga and all of the things. And it was
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: mostly because you know, growing up, a lot of like
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: achievement and success was always tied to work or tied
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: to school, and I wanted something out of that. And
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: so my relationship to fitness and running specifically has you know,
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: ebbdom flowed. But I always come back to running. I
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: always come back to running. I think it's the one
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: thing that you know. You ask any runner around, They're like,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: it's the it's the free workout, Like you just need
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: a pair of shoes and you can lace up and
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: do it anywhere, which is true. And running has given
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: me so much. It's taken me around the world. We
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: were talking about Tokyo earlier. I went on a running
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: trip to Tokyo, which is amazing, and I've run half
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: marathons in Paris and it's just a great way to
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: sight see run all over Milan. And so I'll always
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: come back to running. But I think as I also
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: get older, I've realized that I need to incorporate some
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: other things into the practice, into the wellness programming, which
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: is where like weightlifting and pilates has come in recently.
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, do you remember how it felt when you made
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: this decision for yourself to tackle such a big, scary, hairy,
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: audacious goal.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: It's interesting.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: I've never thought I couldn't finish something, So the setting
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: the goal and getting out there has always been the
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: easy part, honestly, because I've always known that if I
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: needed to walk, I could walk. If I needed to run,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: I could run. And really just we talk about running
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: your own race a lot, and running and really just
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: sticking to that has been really I think helpful in running,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: but has also informed sort of how I operate and
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: move like outside of running, And so when I set
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: the goal, it didn't seem crazy or scary. Breaking two
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: hours and a half marathon does seem crazy and scary,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: which is probably why I haven't done it yet.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: Niki has been on breaking two quest like for ten years.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: It's the best though, Like everyone, it's cheering. I am
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: so cheering you on to do this breaking too. You know.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: It's so funny because as you were saying, this like
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: really does inform the other aspects of your life. As
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: you were talking about, I have always believed that I
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: could run my own race. I believe that that is
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: a hard mentality to take on because of the nature
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: of the highlight reel, of the comparison trap that we
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: so many of us fall into. And it really does
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: reflect when you were talking earlier about work and you're saying, like,
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: I don't really care how people feel about me. Now, okay,
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: so I don't really care how people feel about me
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: at work. I don't really care what anybody else thinks
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: about me running this marathon, Like I'm going to be
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: able to do what I want to do. I'm going
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: to be able to do my own race. For always
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: that hear this and have like a maybe an envy
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: over your perspective, Any tips, tricks, thoughts on how to
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: inform them to maybe get to a place where they
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: feel a little bit more comfortable about running their own race.
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's what you said.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: A lot of people only share the highlights on Instagram,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: or they only share they only tell you the good parts.
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: So I think one thing to remember is that the
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: other people are going through hardships as well, and they
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: are showing only their highlights, but they may not be
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: showing their pitfalls. And I think knowing for me at
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: least knowing that other people are going through things, Knowing
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: that other people are having pitfalls like makes me a
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: little comfortable with my own. Knowing that I don't have
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: to be perfect and no one else has to be
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: perfect has really helped me sort of come into my own.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: I think the other thing that I've really been thinking
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: about a lot recently, especially as I became editor in chief,
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: is in a question I get often is like, was
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: this a goal for you? And it's never been about
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: the goal. It's been about always loving the process. So
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: my favorite moments when it comes to working out or
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: when it comes to running is the process. It's the
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: group runs, it's the seeing like going for a coffee
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: run with a friend, taking the Rumble class together with
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: you know. In community, it's never been about the end goal.
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: It's always been and especially when in work, in the
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: work process, it's always been about like loving to throw
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: headlines around with people, getting really excited about like seeing
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: several people are chatting, several people are typing in the
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: slack room, like that stuff really excites me. The process
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: really excites me. And then the goal is just sort
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: of like what happens at the end of it.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: I was having a really beautiful discussion with Natalie Kuhn
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: from the class about getting to a place where we
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: realize that the outcome is not a reflection on who
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: it is that we are challenging. Right. But the thing
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: is is that if you're doing the best you can
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: with the process, then like, why are we going to
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: judge ourselves when and that is truly what's happening, right.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: You can't let feeling overtake fact. And so when you
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: talk about community and you talk about being able to
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: do what you love with other people, it's easier to
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: kind of take stock or inventory about what's happening around
• 20:16
  Speaker 3: you enjoying the process because you have other people to
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: kind of sail the ship with. Yeah.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, as we were joking, but yeah, I
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: have been trying to break two for the last ten years.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: If it really has destroyed had destroyed me, I would
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: have stopped running totally, you know. But there's something that
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: brings me back. And honestly, the breaking too is not
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: what brings me back. It's the process. It's the knowing
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: that I set a day and I put my mind
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: to something and I'm going to do it. I'm going
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: to execute on it.
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: Maybe a little.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: Messy, but like I'll, I'll get it done and I
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: can there are friends that I can tap into when
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I need help. All of that stuff is like the
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: good stuff. The race is just like what happens at
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: the end.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: Of it, you know. Taking a break from today's episode
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: to talk to you about my sponsor at Element Elements,
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  Speaker 3: it is my go to I use Element all of
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  Speaker 3: the time, especially as I'm fueling these longer runs leading
• 21:38
  Speaker 3: up to the Tokyo Marathon. I drink Element about thirty
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: to sixty minutes before I head out the door, and
• 21:45
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• 21:50
  Speaker 3: ahead of time is much better than chasing them afterward.
• 21:54
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• 22:00
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• 22:31
  Speaker 3: We're talking about community here, and something that I have
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: always admired about you professionally is that it's very clear
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: that the woman that you surround yourself, you're all like
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: on the rising tide. It's that like you have been
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: able to dial in and find this really excellent group
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: of women who have worked very hard in the career,
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: and I feel like it's like I'll see one of
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: you succeed and then like literally it's no surprise that
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: the next day, like someone else has a really big moment.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: Talk to me about how it feels to have such
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: an established group of peers that have become your friends.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: Having such an established group of peers who have become
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: my friends has been such a blessing to me. I
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: have always said that I never want to be the
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: smartest person in the room. So the reason that I
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: am surrounded by such amazing people is because they are
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: like pioneers or they are the smartest people who I
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: can surround myself with and I can learn from them.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: I feel like they're you know, we have our cup
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: and it's always filled when I walk away from a
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: conversation with them. I think it's really important to not
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: be the smartest person in the room and to always
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: be able to learn from somebody. And so when I
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: look at the past places I've worked, it's a blessing, honestly,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: like to be able to be good friends with somebody
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: like Sally Holmes, who's the editor in chief of in Style,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: or you know, to count Leiachernikov and Samir Nasser as
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: like friends and colleagues and peers at bizarre like it
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: kind of blows my mind sometimes, but it also makes
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: sense because they are truly some of the smartest women
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: that I know.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: Aside from the great level of intellect of these individuals,
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: what would you say is a characteristic or something that
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: you look for when you're like, oh, this person and me,
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: like we're going to jive really well.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I would say that in all of the women sort
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: of that I surround myself with, you know, you included.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: There is a pursuit of excellence which I one hundred percent,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: one thousand percent respect. You may not achieve, you know,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: every single goal on the mark, but there is a
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: pursuit of excellence that I really really respect. There's a curiosity,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: there is an ability to give of yourself and be
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: willing to ask for others to give to you as well.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: There's a vulnerability there that's challenging.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Extremely, extremely But I remember or I saw you at
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: some point after the pandemic, like recently after the pandemic.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: And you were like how are you? And I was
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: like not great?
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: And you were like same, not great. And to just
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: have that moment where when you ask how are you
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: and it's like really, how are you? Yeah, that's special, Yeah,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: it's special.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: And it's indicative that there is in that in sense,
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: a mutual feeling of safety. I think that there's just
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: so much going on in our day to day that
• 25:29
  Speaker 3: it's super understandable when someone's walking around and feeling as
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: though the only way they can answer that how are
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: you doing question is with good I mean, I feel
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: like probably ninety two percent of the time, that's the
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: answer that you get because everyone is so busy just
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: trying to handle that their own shit that they don't
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: want to get to this place, like you said before,
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: where you actually answer that question, you feel the tears
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: walling up and everything is going crazy. You're like, I'm
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: just trying to keep my shit together over here, which
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: is a great answer. Yeah, honestly, and more people should say.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: It, because I think there's something just arming about that, unarming, disarming, disarming,
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: disarming about that. There's something that is obviously taps into
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: vulnerability and when you were vulnerable, and that affords other
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: people the opportunity to be the same.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I want to dial back to how you were
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: speaking on having not seen many other black women in
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: roles like the one that you currently hold. Let's bring
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: it to when you really got started in editorial. Did
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: you at that time feel the same way?
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: When I started an editorial, there were not a lot
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: of black people people of color in these roles, especially
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: at the brands that I had worked at.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: So at Vanity fair in Style was like the outlier.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Actually it was like surprisingly diverse, but Vanity fair Ell
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: glamour like I was one of a handful, one of
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: like a couple, and so I think, in part, you
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: can't really be what you don't see. So I saw
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: a lot of people in like high like high fashion roles,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: you know, the market directors or the senior market editor,
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: those sorts of roles. But the executive editor who's the
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: number two with the brand, never saw that. Editor in
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: chief never saw that unless it was at a place
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: like Jet Ebony Essence, and so I never really thought
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: that it was an option. And I think in thinking
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: about becoming in becoming editor in chief recently, I think
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: about like this cohort of women who are in their
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: you know, mid forties right now, who were just skipped over.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: They just never got the opportunity to become the executive editor,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: to become the editor in chief. And that feels simultaneously unfair,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: but it also puts a bit of a battery in
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: my back to want to do better and want to
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: open up opportunities for people that are following me.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: Yeah, what tools or maybe like what mindset did you
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: have to adopt to get out of your own way, because,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: as you said, oftentimes you didn't feel like you could
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: be her because you didn't see her, So there had
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: to be an internal dialogue going on that empowered you
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: to step into the potential that you knew that you had.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: Well, honestly, it came from other people saying, you can
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: do this.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: I believe in you.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: You can do this, and I'd be like, I don't know,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: it feels like a big job, and they're like, that's fine,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: you can do it. It's like okay, well in a
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: nonchalant way as well, Like I had a lot of
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: people around me who were kind of like, you.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: Could be you could be an editor in chief obviously. Yeah.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: I'm like, what do you mean obviously like and they're like, no, yeah,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: of course you can do that.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: Of course you can be digital director.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: It's and not to say that the job's not hard,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: but it's not like it's not rocket.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: Science, but yeah, you can do it.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah. You know. It's interesting though, because earlier in our
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: conversation you even said, like, I remember I was sitting
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: in the room and I was thinking, I can do that.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: I can do that. I can do that. But sometimes
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: we do understandably need someone else to say something that
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: could even be literally right in front of our face.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Right and can be the trigger to you thinking you
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: can do that. So when somebody sell tells me that
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I can do something, I'm more likely to be like.
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: Maybe I can.
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: I feel like there's a conversation pending here about how
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: to be your most confident self. And I mean, listen,
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying that like I'm an expert, but I
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: do think that you and I both have had these
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: moments where you kind of have to put your big
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: girl pants on and like put down the wine glass
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: and say like, all right, I'm ready to do what
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: I need to do.
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: One hundred percent.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: And I think you know, you get ready to do
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: what you're going to do, and then in doing it,
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: you know that you're either going to win and you're
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: going to fail. And if you fail, then you learn
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: from those failures that you don't you can't let them
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: define you because that'll just take you out, right, But
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: you have the day or two where you're like, damn,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: that really sucked and you.
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: Just got to keep going. Yeah, it's that growth versus
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: the fixed mindset. I think also sometimes it's about maybe
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: leaping before you feel as though you're ready again going
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: to that fact versus feeling thing, big decisions, big moments.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: It's very rarely that you're going to walk up to
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: that and think, I am so ready for this, Like
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: this is entirely my race, my meeting, my promotion, my whatever.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: But if you're constantly in this place of waiting, then
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: the only thing that's happening, most likely is that you're
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: standing in your own way to whatever it is that
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: you want.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, and my other sort of like while you're sort
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: of you know, waiting, quote unquote, I would say that
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: you just need to be as prepared as possible. And
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: so that is something that like running has really taught me,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Like you can step up to that starting line at
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: the race and be like, I don't know, I don't
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: know how it's going to go today, but you have
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: your fourteen weeks, your twelve eight weeks of training in
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: your back pocket, and so you just have to trust
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: your training. Don't know how the race is going to go,
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: but you have to have faith in the work that
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: you've done to get to this point. It's worked for
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: me in running, and it continues to work for me
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: in my career.
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: Something I started adopting early last year was not only
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: that smart goals framework, but also this other acronym called aim,
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: and AIM stands for acceptable, ideal, and minimum. So you
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: can have a goal, say you just mentioned running, I
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: want to run a five k in thirty minutes. Okay,
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: you might feel like thirty minutes is a stretch, but
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: you can come up with these other benchmarks so you
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: can still kind of garner or set realistic expectations for yourself.
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: So acceptable is maybe running it in thirty two minutes,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: Ideal is thirty or below, and minimum would be like
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: in between of those two numbers. So it's like I
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: can recognize that I am capable of this thing, and
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: depending on the day, X might happen, why might happen,
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: but whatever happens here, I still know that I can
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: go after this goal and quote unquote succeed. I think
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: it's really challenging sometimes when you're trying to put your
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: big girl proverbial pants on to get to this point
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: where you can truly understand that that failure air quotes
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: as always is happening for you. You know, we don't
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: work hard for things not to go as we'd hoped.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: I think that's like one of the biggest themes that
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: I talk about on the show, but in reality, whatever
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: happens is an opportunity for you to then be informed
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: and then figure out how you're going to move forward.
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: And in that execution of moving forward is up to
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: you to bring those lessons with you, because if you don't,
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: then you're the only one that's gonna, you know, be
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: at a disadvantage for it.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Absolutely and whether you I mean, this is the one
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: thing I will say that has sort of been interesting
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: and working on digital, you have to put out so
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: much content. You have to put out so many stories, instagrams, videos.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Not everything is going to be a hit. Not everything
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: is going to get the likes you want. Not everything's
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: going to get the you know, the clicks, the sessions,
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: the views. But you learn from everything. There are so
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: many learnings that you can take from every single piece
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: of content or whatever that you put up, you create.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: And if you're not taking those learnings, if you're not
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: taking understanding why something worked, why it didn't work, Like,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: what's the point?
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, what's the point? You know. One of the reasons
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: I was really excited to have you in here, besides
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: using it as an excuse for us to hang out
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: for an hour, was really for us to talk a
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: little bit about your career because I think it does
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: shed some light both on just the industry as a whole,
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: but also it's always fun for me to wrap oro
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: out this stuff as a fellow journalist. So we've talked
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: a little bit about the transition for you from print
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: to digital now living in like what this digital ecosystem
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: is today, which is something that completely has changed the game.
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: How has that transition been for you? Because you have
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: lived so many different lives within this industry. I have
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: in a lot of lives in the last three years.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: I was telling a friend that, like I generally stay
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: at a job for like, you know, three four years.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: It just so happened during the pandemic that I like
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: bounced around a lot. You know, I'm happy to be
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: back at Mary Clare and doing print and digital and
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: you know, all of the things because it's sort of
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: is a culmination of, you know, everything I've been working
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: on in the past. You know, the job is massive,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: but it fills me in a bunch of different ways
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: every day, and so that's that's been great.
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: When you say we have to churn out a lot,
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: shed some light on what a lot looks like I
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: want to give I want to give the hurdlers a
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: better understanding of what it means to do a lot.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: On the website alone, we're probably putting out and I say,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: we have a fantastic team of about twelve fifteen. We're
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: hiring in new roles, but we're putting out about five
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: hundred stories a month and doing We're posting on Instagram
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: four times a day, We're posting on TikTok twice a day,
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: once a day, we are posting on we have our
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: video arm.
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: We're getting into live events.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: We're taking market meetings and you know, doing interviews and
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: all of the things. I'm working on a podcast, Like,
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: there's so many pieces of content that come into creating
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: a brand these days.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: So it is a lot. Yeah, we're getting into live events,
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: me writes, Note Marie Claire is getting into live events.
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Me follow up and make me about Marie Claire live events.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: What is any of that? Like? If I had to
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: ask you, which part of that makes me the most excited?
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Do you have an answer? My newsletter is making me
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: really excited at your newsletter.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: My newsletter self checkout is making me extremely excited. It
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: gets me back to what I really love about this
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: industry why I wanted to get into this industry in
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: the first place, which is just to talk about close
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: with my friends, and I have been trying to create
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: that sort of atmosphere with the newsletter. It comes out
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: every Saturday around two pm, and it's my weekly sort
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: of touch base with this community, and I talk about
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: everything from what I've been wearing to go on long
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: runs in the cold, to you know, the coats that
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: I'm loving this season, to Christmas gifts, to all sorts
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: of things. And it's been a nice sort of opportunity
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: for me to just do a bit of the writing
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: that I don't get to do much anymore.
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, as an editor in chief, again many iterations of
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: what you've done in your career, I want to talk
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: a little bit about the art of interviewing, something that
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: you've had to get to be very acquainted with when
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: it comes to executing a good interview. What comes to
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: mind for you?
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Interviewing people is a strange sort of skill to have,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: and I think very preliminary. It just starts with curiosity.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: I'm consistently surprised by the lack of curiosity amongst a
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: lot of people I can go deep on like pretty
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: much anything, like you wanted to tell me about this
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: bike over here for the next fifteen minutes, I'd be like, Okay,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: that's interesting, and I'll have fifteen more questions to ask
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: because I'm a genuinely curious person. And so I think
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: a successful interview just starts with being able to have
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: a good set of questions when you're going into the interview,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: really doing the pre work that comes with an interview,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: so watching their movies, reading their past interviews, to know
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: what they've talked about in the past, what they like
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: talking about, what they don't like talking about.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: Interviewing, you kind of have.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: To be ready also for it to sort of like
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: go off the rails and you got to bring it
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: back in, which is a delicate dance. But you have
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: to be a bit of a like a jockey almost
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: and like being able to like tame the horse back
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: in like bring the horse back on. Course, interviews can
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: be wild and they can be fun. You're not going
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: to kill them all. But I also think it is
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: just the of like the practice and genuinely wanting to
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: ask questions of people.
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: What do you think that interviewing has done for you
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: as a person.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: What interviewing has done for me as a person is
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: it's just really opened up my eyes to just the art,
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: the art quote unquote of conversation and really just being
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: in conversation. It's made me a better listener. It's made
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: me more excited to just like hear what people have
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: to say. I can talk to anyone about anything.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: I think it's fun. It's made me it's opened my world,
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: and it's just sort of like it's brought so much
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: to my life.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: What has it taught you about other people that.
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: They love to talk about themselves.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: It's really interviewing has really taught me that people love
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: to talk about themselves and they often don't ask questions
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: about you the interviewer or you know, the other person
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: on the other side of the conversation. And so I've
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: become cognizant of doing that when I'm in conversations. Yeah,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: taking the second to be like how are you, how
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: is your weekend, and it not be a sort of
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: like cheesy, sort of Okay, I've done the first two
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: questions and so now we can move on. But really
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: just being cognizant of what it's like to be in
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: conversation with somebody.
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: Has it made you your sense of awareness more heightened
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: within your personal relationships? Yes, it actually has.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: It's made me realize that I don't talk about myself
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: a lot, and then I'm often like.
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: Oh, it's fine, or yeah, that's fine.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: Well just okay, that's like that's cool, or when somebody asks,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: you know, often how I'm doing, I'm like, it's fine,
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: but how are you?
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: And what's going on in your life? And dah dah dah.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Because I'm so used to like the conversation not being
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: about me. It's always about the person on the other side.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: And so I've tried to sort of give more of
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: myself in conversations and keep those conversations going rather than
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: just like giving a one word answer.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: How do you give more of yourself when you're not
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: used to giving more of yourself?
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: I mean, it's a practice, Like it really is a practice.
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: It's funny.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: When I started dating my boyfriend, he gave a lot
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: of one word answers, and I'd always be like, you
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: got to give me more?
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: What else?
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: And so just flipping that on myself and challenging myself
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: to give more to say, like what else when somebody
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: asked me something, how are you doing? Instead of saying fine,
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: maybe it's a sentence today yesterday was rough, but today
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: is better. Okay, So then that gives the other person
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: on the other side something to work with as well.
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: Can you give the girlies dating advice here, because can
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: we talk about the fact that like someone hears that
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: like he gave a lot of one word answers and
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: Niki's like, I'm persevering on this one.
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I think it's the other thing that you just listen.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: I have not dated in a while, I've not been
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: in this space in a while. It's rough out there.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: I know that's the truth from friends who have told
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: me it's rough out there.
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: But I also.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: See a lot of people who still have like weird
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: rules around dating. Oh they're like, I'm not going to
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: call that guy first, And it's like why if you
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: like him, you can tell him that. It's at the
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: very least it gets it off of your chest. Like
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: playing games never works, it's not helpful, so you might
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: as well just cut to the chase.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: Cut to the chase. But again, like this is just
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: like very clear that this is your stance like in
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: all things.
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: Some would say I'm blunt.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Some would say I don't suffer fools, and I haven't.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: I'm you know.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: I think it is a part of like just who
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: I am internally, and I guess it's sort of I
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know how I became this way.
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: I think I was in part a little bit born
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: this way, but also just sort of like I don't
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: have time to like sort of suffer fools, and I
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: never really have, so it sort of trickles into every
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: aspect of my life.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: I don't have time to suffer fools. What a line
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: on that. Then back to the friendship note, I think
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: that a lot of individuals have a hard time, especially
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: as we get older, dialing into or having grace with
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: ourselves as we grow out of relationships. On that note,
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: so when it comes to maybe upholding your own boundaries
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: within the parameters of your time, what has worked well
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: with you in that regard.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: I remember when I was entering into this industry and
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: sort of first moving to New York, my sister and
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: I were talking about something and she very casually was like,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: you know, everyone's not meant to come along for the
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: full ride, and I was like, Okay, that gives me
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: permission to release what's like not serving me, release people
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: who are not serving me, but also bring them back
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: if they were going through something and I don't know,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: maybe they had to work it out over there, like
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: that's okay, come back to me when you're done. There's
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: always like there's a reason why I liked you in
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: the first place. There's boundaries are good and they're necessary,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: but I also think that sometimes people are a little
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: too rigid with their boundaries and there's not an enough
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: sort of flexibility in understanding that other people have boundaries
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: and maybe they're not aligning with your boundaries right now,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: but they could in the future and you should be
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: open to that.
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really challenging place to be in that
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: you want to have strong boundaries, but you also know
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: that in different seasons people may be going through different
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: things and to be able to make decisions that are
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: best for you without being rude, like you can be
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: firm but kind is literally like the biggest guiding principle
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: that I feel like I've adopted across the board from
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: my relationships to like the way that I do business.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, and you know, there's a lot of conversation about boundaries,
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: and there's be speaking all of that stuff, But ultimately
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: my sort of thought process behind all of the things
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: is like, are those boundaries or are you being an asshole?
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: Like ask yourself that are you just not being considerate?
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Are you not being kind because you have your own
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: boundaries and you think that your boundaries are more important
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: than another person's boundaries. Maybe perhaps, but like also you
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: could just be kind of being an asshole.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, one hundred percent. And now these days, as you
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: said before, your time feels like extremely, extremely limited. So
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: how do you exercise upholding your boundaries when it comes
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: to keeping your schedule?
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's a process, that is something that is constantly
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: being and flowing and knowing. I think the one thing
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: that has been really helpful for me is knowing that
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: my schedule will change and no two days are going
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: to be the same. And once I've become comfortable with that,
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: then making sure that if working out is you know,
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: because working out is important to me, I get it
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: in somehow. So if I don't have time for a
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: full workout in the morning, then I'll take the twenty
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: minutes to walk to an appointment, and there's just a
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: bit of flexibility that serves me and has helped with
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: my schedule.
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: Definitely.
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I uh as. We love to call it
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: a snack. If you want a snack, a Joe Holder
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: exercise snack, a Joe Holder exercise snack. And I think
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: it's an acceptance of that again, doing the best you
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: can with whatever is happening. It literally like with whatever
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: is happening, because if you have this idea in your
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: head that things have to be a certain way, whether
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: we're talking about exercise or we're talking about what I'm
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: going to do on my laptop, when you walk out
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: of here and you're not willing to pivot or like
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: flow with the day, then things are going to get
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: real hard.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Things are going to get incredibly hard. I mean my career.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: For example, when I was at l I, I was like,
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: you know, I didn't get this big job, and my
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: friend at GQ was hiring for somebody and I was like, oh,
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: go try that, Like why not? What is going to
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: stop me from going over there and trying that. Then
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: the pandemic hit and this job at Bazaar popped up,
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: and I was like, Okay, I'll just go try that.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: And there hasn't been a rigidity in like the roles
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: I have to have, the titles I have to have.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: It's been more so of like what do I want
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: my process and progress to look like in this stage
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: of my life, and then when that's not serving me
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: anymore or when I'm over that, I'll just go do
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: this other thing over there. Like my career has been
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: a bit of a jungle gym, I would say, where
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: I'm like swinging from bar to bar.
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: But have I guess achieved the top a bit of
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: the top.
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: We're at the top part that looks like the castle,
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: like looking down on all of the wood chips. Yeah.
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: When you reflect on this career that you've had, which
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: is nowhere near over yet, and you if I ask
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: you to articulate what the maybe biggest quote unquote failure
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: was for you and how that made you feel at
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: the time, what would you say?
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: I think when I was starting off in my career
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: going from Vanity Fair where I was in I was
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: a closet assistant, so basically I had to manage somebody's
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: schedule and I had to help sort of like funnel
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: samples from place to place.
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: I was horrible at that job.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: I was really bad, I think in part because honestly,
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: I didn't really care about it that much. I think
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: that I and that taught me that I have to
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: if I'm going to do a job, I have to
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: like it and care about it and be somewhat passionate
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: about it. Otherwise I'm just not good at it. I
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: don't put my all into it. And so that was
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: sort of like my learning. We've talked about like takeaways.
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: That was my takeaway from that job. But I was
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: so bad at it, and being bad at something was
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: just like horrible.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: Did that make you feel that, like editorial as a
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: whole was questionable for you?
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: It made me feel like the fashion industry was questionable
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: for me for sure. I was like, I don't know
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: if I fit in with these people. I think I'm amazing,
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: so I don't know why these people don't see it.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: It made me question, like, you know, is this the
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: industry for me? At one point, I was like, maybe
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: I'll go back to I'll go to JA school. Like
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: I remember printing out papers and thinking like maybe I'll
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: go to Central Saint Martin's for grad school.
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: And then I got a job as the style editor
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: at Glamour, working on the website, and that's when I
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: found my people, and that's when I realized, Okay, this
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: is what the fashion industry can be. Maybe I'm not
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: meant to work in high high fashion because I don't
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: really care about it that much. But I do like
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: talking about clothing. I do like talking about personal style,
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: suggesting things for people, and that's the that's the area
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: that I'll go in in the fashion industry.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: Right, So, like every different turn informed how you took
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: the next one. Absolutely, would you say that this current
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: situation is the proudest moment thus far in your career
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: or do you have a different answer to that question.
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: I haven't really thought about it, Honestly.
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: I don't like, sure, yes, this is a great moment
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: for my career, but like, this can't be it.
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: Right, it can't. You have to be like right, Like,
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: this can't be it.
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: So there will be other moments, and so I think
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: for me, just taking it as not necessarily a stepping stone,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: but just taking it as like another sort of like
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: moment in my work history.
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I ask you that because I feel as though
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: it can be one of those highlight reel questions.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: It can be like one of those highlight reel assumptions.
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: Someone sees everything that you've done, the amazing travels that
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: you take in, and then the post where Nikki Oganaki
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: is now the editor in chief of Marie Clare and
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: it's like, wow, talk about being at the top of
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: the jungle gym castle, right, But there's so much that
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: happens that's not on the real that like is extremely impactful.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: Extremely impactful. There are so many great moments, you know.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: I look back at like what I've been able to accomplish,
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: the people I've worked with at all of these jobs
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: that I've had in the past, the people I've met,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: and that is the fun part for me. Like being
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: an editor in chief is an amazing job and I
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: am so thankful for it. The lead up to it, though,
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: has been really fantastic as well.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been a wild ride, you know. I think
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: a younger version of myself would say my proudest career
• 50:08
  Speaker 3: moment was like when Hurdle got in the New York
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Times and like, yes, that was cool, and of course,
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: like I did do things that then in turn had
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: someone contact me and put it there but realistically speaking,
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: like I just got lucky, Like that was just like
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: a lucky thing that happened. Right. So then if I
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: really reflect and think about like what my hard work
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: has afforded me, I'd say like probably one of my
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: proudest moments in my career was like the day I
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: signed a least from my own two bedroom. Absolutely, you know,
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: like that's kind of like what I think about now.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: And it's just because I'm like a more evolved person now,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: I have a broader understanding of what the work that
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: I put in every day, the small stuff and the
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: big stuff, is able to afford me, not just actually
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: things of course, but like what it enables me to
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: do as I move forward. Yeah, And I think also
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: that like when it comes to where we want to go,
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: this is where we're going to transition.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: Now, you said like this can't be it.
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: But sometimes when you feel as though like you're at
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: the mountaintop, you're like, well, what happens next?
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: Oh, all the time, I had a moment. I can't
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: remember where it was.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: I had a moment though where I was looking around
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: me and there are a lot of sort of senior
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: fashion editor market director roles which is the top of
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: the fashion department, and I never really saw what happened
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: after or you have these editor in chiefs and then
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: they kind of just disappear into the ether and you
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: don't really hear from them again. You don't know what
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: they're doing, and so that is sort of scary because
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: there is a moment where you're like, this can't be
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: my last job, but like, what does life look like
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: after an editor in chief?
• 51:47
  Speaker 4: I don't know, someone start a blog and tell me
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: about it.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think what's awesome is like that's kind
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: of up to you in that what do you want
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: it to look like?
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: What excites you? What do you want to work on?
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: What opportunities can you I remember when I got let
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: go from self, I started pitching like entirely new roles
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: to existing companies that like weren't like a thing I
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: just thought about, Like I like your company, I know
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: what I'm capable of doing. This is like maybe why
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: you should hire me, and like this is the job
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: I would propose. And I had conversations that literally went
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: on like it wasn't just like you're crazy, it was like, well,
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: if I'm going to be crazy anyway, Like I might
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: as well try to do something for myself. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely,
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: but shit is wild. Yeah.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: And for me graduating from college, as I said in
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, half of these jobs didn't exist.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: So being a digital director when I graduated from college
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: like barely existed. Yeah, So that's sort of informed how
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: I operate in my career because I don't know what's coming.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: So when people are like, what's your five year plan,
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't have a five year plan
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: because something could be on the horizon that didn't even
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: exist one year ago.
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: Right for someone else who hears that and thanks to themselves,
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: I also don't have a five year plan. What advice
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: do you have to offer them? Because I think that
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: generally speaking, the conventional thought is that you're wrong for
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: not having that set in place.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: I would say, think about the lifestyle that you want
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: to live. So do you want to travel more, do
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: you want to work steady hours? Do you want to
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: be home at more for your kid at night or
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: in the morning, and really trying to find a job
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: or something that fits into that sort of like lifestyle
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: rather than warping your lifestyle to fit around a job.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: What excites Nikki. Right now, what excites me right now?
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: What I mean?
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: So many things excite me right now. I'm training for
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: a half marathon, so that's exciting. It's frustrating and humbling
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: at every turn, but that's exciting to like go out
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: and do eight miles and like kill it.
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: Wow, that's amazing.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: We're going into fashion weeks soon, so that's always exciting
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: and tiresome and fun and fabulous. That is like, actually,
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: a very fabulous part of my job is fashion Week.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: It is as great as it looks on the internet.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: It is a very cool part of my job. And
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: so getting to do that every six months is so special.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's very excited about Paris and Milan, just Paris,
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: just Paris. Yeah, so I'm excited. I'm excited to just
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: do Paris.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: I'm excited to go to Paris for six days and
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: get to see some really beautiful clothing.
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: And when you do something like that, again like pulling
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: back the curtain a little bit, can you just like
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: talk broadly about the experience for those that are uninformed.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: Sure, So Paris fashion week is or I should say
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: fashion month in general. We talk about fashion week, but
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: it really is a month of shows across New York, London,
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: Milan in Paris, and a lot of it is going
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: to these shows and taking in what the designers are designing,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: but also looking at the trends that are popping up
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: across various runways. What excites me and what I love
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: to see is the street style and what people are
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: wearing in real life to these shows, how people are
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: adopting the various trends that they have seen. If there's
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: a bit of a back to school moment, so that's
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: always lovely to see friends again. But the process, like
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: through and through, you spend a lot of time going
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: from place to place seeing these shows and then sort
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: of doing a download with your team on the trends
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: that you think are important that you want to get behind,
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: the new designers that you want to support, and then
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: creating the content from there.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and so who pays for it?
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: I do or the company? The company pays for mine.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you I do not have the influencer experience.
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: Yours not flying me journalistically because whatever, but they are
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: also you know, right, it's very interesting when I look
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: at the landscape now of who is in these shows
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: and what the front row is looking like editors, influencers, buyers.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: There are so many different types of people in that room.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: But the biggest difference that I have seen is that
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: there's a respect for digital editors and there's a respect
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: for influencers that was not there ten years ago.
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: And when it comes to getting dressed for these shows,
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: how does that work?
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: It's a little bit of everything. Sometimes people will give
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: you things, sometimes people will loan you things. I in
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: the last few years have really gotten into wearing my
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: own clothes, which seems silly, but you can get caught
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: up in the like wanting to put on a costume
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: to be or what I deem a costume, So dressing
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: as you wouldn't normally dressed to want to be photographed
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: by the photographers, you know, when you're walking into shows
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: or doing the street style. And so I dress myself.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I just feel comfortable in my days of six
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: days of outfits.
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of outs Oh my god, thirty days
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: of outfits.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: I'm exhausted by the end of the month because you
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: really are just cognizant of like you're walking to a show,
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: there are forty photographers at any given time.
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: I'm like, what do I look crazy right now? Like
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: I'm I really struggle with that, Like just I went
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: through a really I went through a period of time
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: where I felt this is though, I was holding myself
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: back because I didn't like it when other people had
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: control of like my image. And I recognize in you know,
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: what I call my good to great era, that I
• 57:12
  Speaker 3: can't get to great if I'm so concerned of what
• 57:15
  Speaker 3: other people are capturing of me. Right, Like, I have
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: an opportunity to do so much good, and that good
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: hinges on likely like my availability and whatnot. And so
• 57:25
  Speaker 3: it's just so interesting to me to think about being
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: in a scenario where like there's just literally forty cameras
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: around me at any given moment.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: Right And you can get caught up in having all
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: those cameras around you, or you can.
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: Just be like I'm trying to do my job.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like I want to go.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: I gotta get to this show, and so like get
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: your flick. I'm gonna put my outfit on and I
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: think it's great, Like yeah, so and so who's watching
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: on Instagram is probably gonna leave a shady comment, but like, okay, fine,
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: you didn't like this one.
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: I liked it, so I gotta go sit and watch
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: the show.
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: Someone comes here Instagram NII. They see the editor in
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: chief of Marie Claire dabbles and running sometimes got lots
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: of cool fit checks. When you look in the mirror,
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: what is it that you see looking back at you.
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: When I look in the mirror, I see somebody who
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: is a hard worker. They're a great friend, great sister,
• 58:20
  Speaker 1: great daughter, great partner. I see someone who is no
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: nonsense but honestly is like softy on the inside.
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I see.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Somebody who's like really worked really hard to get to
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: where she is and is proud of where she is.
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: Right now, you have an opportunity to give yourself a
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: piece of advice. Let's say, going back to that time
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: where you were just starting out. You told me that
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: that was one of the most difficult moments in your career,
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: trying to figure out if you had made the right decision.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: Knowing what you know now, what would you tell yourself
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: during that point.
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: I would tell myself that this does not define you.
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: Not getting this job, getting this job, hating this job,
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: losing this story, none of it defines you.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: Find your worth outside of work, find your worth outside
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: of work.
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: What a joy.
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: Always to have you and Nikki. For those that don't
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: follow along with you just yet, give us your details.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: How can they keep up?
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: Okay?
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: You can follow me on all social platforms at nikki
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: ogouon og un, Subscribe to self, checkout Marie Claire's newsletter
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: that comes out weekly, and be on the lookout for
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: a podcast coming soon.
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: Podcast coming soon. We love more podcasters. I'll link self
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: checkout in the show notes. I'm over at Emily Body
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: and at Hurdle Podcast. Another hurdle conquered. Catch you guys
• 59:50
  Speaker 3: next time? Do you want to say it? Another hurdle conquered.
• 59:56
  Speaker 3: Catch you guys next time. You know