Latest / The Overland Journal Podcast / Interview with David Soza: polymath, engineer, and wanderer.

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Interview with David Soza: polymath, engineer, and wanderer. · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I'm your
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: host Scott Brady and my co host Matt. Scott is
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: not with us today because it's his birthday, So happy birthday, Matt.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Thanks for being such an awesome co host and friend.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: You have made such a difference in this podcast. So
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: thanks for being you, and happy birthday. Man. And I
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: have a good friend and a wonderful guest today, Dave Sosa.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Dave has been literally my neighbor next door runs a
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: company called turn Overland and they bring in a windows
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: and doors and other accessories for vans and campers, et cetera.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: I really look at Dave as a polymath. He's really
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: one of the few that I have met in my
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: life that has managed to create mastery in so many
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: different levels of his life. And as we're going to
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: talk about today, that has really come from his experiences,
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: and that's going to be kind of a thread that
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: we're going to have through this conversation. So David, thank
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: you so much for being on the podcast.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: God, it is really an honor to be here. I'll
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: tell you, I've been a fan of the podcast since
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: the very first episode, so I never thought that I
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: would be sitting here in this seat. But it really
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: is an honor to be.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: You're so happy. Yeah, you're so welcome.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Now.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: I just so appreciate you being on the podcast. And
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: we were just talking right before we started recording about
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: what are you drinking today?
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: I'm drinking Egyptian licorice tea. This is actually given to
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: me as a gift. I like lyric teese. Oh nice,
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: this is really good stuff. He keeps my throat clear.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Oh okay, now that makes sense and my voice clear.
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Because you also seem to enjoy coffee too, so maybe
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: you have your coffee and you have your coffee in
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: the morning and they moved to teas after that.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Oh that's smart.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: When I first started the business, Jeremy Edgar was one
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: of my first employees and he had grown up. Part
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: of his youth was in Argentina, so he drank mate
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: tea every day and he wouldn't drink coffee. He would
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: walk around with this little bowl with a and they
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: called it a bombijia, which is the straw, and he'd
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: be walking around drinking his mate tea for most of
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: the day. And he and what he liked about it
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: was he never really had that kind of caffeine crash.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: So yeah, that's smart. And so many travelers tend to
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: drink tea over coffee they've maybe learned in the long Halso.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and it's also easier because you don't have
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: the cleanup and so forth.
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's true.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Tea bag. Oh that's so Trey. It's easier to clean up.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: That makes that makes a lot of sense. We're going
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: to take a brief break and we will be right back.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: This week's episode is supported in part by Icamper to
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: make innovative hardshell and soft sided roof tents that are
• 2:31
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• 2:36
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• 2:39
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• 2:43
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• 2:47
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• 2:58
  Speaker 1: where rack space is dedicated to other systems. I Camper
• 3:01
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• 3:05
  Speaker 1: the world with those you love most. You can find
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: out more about their quality tents at icamper dot com. Well,
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: what I think it would be fun to make the
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: listeners aware of some things that you have done, and
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: one of the ones that many of the listeners will
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: know of is the Top Truck Challenge, and maybe give
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: us the background on that. I can't remember if you
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: were in the first year or one of the very
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: first years of the event, and so tell us what
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: you drove and how that experience was for you.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: So I was in. I was in the very first event,
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: which was really something. And what had happened was just
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: to back up a little bit, I'd taken a trip
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: around the US and a little Honda Civic, and I
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: came back in nineteen eighty seven and I decided that
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: I really wanted to do more of this, right, so
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I wanted to build a vehicle that was even more capable.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: So I started this in late nineteen eighty seven, and
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: I finished the vehicle I think in nineteen ninety two
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: or ninety three, so many years it took me to
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: build this. But some friends of mine had taken a
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: photograph of the t and they'd send it to Four
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: Wheeler Magazine because they had heard that, you know, they
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: were going to have this new event. They were looking
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: for contestants and all this stuff. So this was unbeknownst
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: to me. And there was something like there were three
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: hundred and some applicants, I guess, and out of the
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: three hundred and sum they chose ten that they wanted there,
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: and I was one of them. So I get this
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: letter in the mail from Four Wheeler Magazine about something
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: that I wasn't even sure what it was about. And
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: in the beginning, I wasn't sure that I wanted to
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: do it because it didn't seem like the right venue
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: for me, you know. I mean this Four Wheeler Magazine
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: was a magazine that I liked to read, and I
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: was into four wheeling for sure. Yeah, but what I
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: built really wasn't a four wheel drive vehicle in that sense.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: It was an expeditionary vehicle, is what I called it.
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: And you would call it an overlanding vehicle. Now the
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: word didn't exist then, certainly wasn't properly used yet, no exactly.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: So I thought, well, you know, this doesn't make a
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: lot of sense. It's like taking a motor home to
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: an autocross rate. What the hell am I going to
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: do with that? Yeah?
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: So, but I did decide to go because I thought,
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: you know, this is a chance for me to really
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: test that aspect of the vehicle.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: And so it was an opportunity. And I had just
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: gotten the vehicle running. I'd hardly had a chance to
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: drive it, so I hadn't had a chance to shake
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: it out, and I was just you know, I wasn't
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: even used to driving it yet. You know that's a
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: big deal. Yeah, being able to drive the vehicle, being
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: really accustomed to the vehicle is sure. So I took
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: a vehicle that I was unaccustomed with, that had never
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: been tested to a contest with some of the best
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: in the country. Yeah, And so it was kind of
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: a gutsy, maybe a stupid move, but I really felt
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: good about that.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: So and you, as I recall, you won Best Engineered
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: on that event, and that had to have felt really
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: good because I would certainly, as one of your many talents,
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: I would certainly describe you as an engineer, and I
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: believe that that is what you started your professional career as.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: And you worked with Intel for many years. So how
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: long did you work with Intel? I worked for Intel
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: for fourteen years. Fourteen years, well, and I.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: Worked in the tech industry a total of eighteen years. Okay, yeah,
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: so a long.
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: Time in the tech industry. And then when we were
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: talking earlier, you mentioned that Intel was giving people sabbaticals
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: and you took some time off. And what was some
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: of the first things that started to change for you
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: as a traveler from those maybe the early backpacking trips
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: and that early sabbatical that you made. What were some
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: of those lessons that you drew from those experiences.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: I think that I was really starting to question my
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: life's direction by seven years into my profession, and I
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: really started to see that the things that fed my
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: soul I really wasn't getting from my work. And so
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: the trip that I took at the seven year point
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: was the chance for me to really kind of evaluate
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: those things. I'd always been very comfortable in nature. I
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: liked the outdoors. I love to travel, I love the
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: sense of adventure. And even though I was very successful
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: in what I did and it was very interesting and
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: I was working with some of the most intelligent people possible,
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I just wasn't finding the satisfaction in sure. So Yeah,
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: the trip around the country was a little over three months,
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: a little over fourteen thousand miles. Else it's a lot
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: of driving in three months of driving well, And it
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: was in a little Honda Civic that I had actually
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: set up for autocross racing, because I've always liked vehicles,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: and I bought a Honda crx Si. Those are fun,
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: and I had it set up for autocross racing and
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: it was a blast. But that was the car that
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: I took around the country, tiny hatchback, perfect and I
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: just I lived out of the car. I didn't spend
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: a single night in a hotel. I did spend a
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: few nights with friends around the country that I knew,
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: but other than that, I was in the car the
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: whole time. Wow. And it was a very sparse existence,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: and it was some of the best time of my
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: life and certainly one of the most transformational times in
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: my life, because over the period of those months, I really,
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: I really was able to nail down the things that
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: were important to me in life. Yeah, none of them
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: were material. Yeah, And so when I came back, I
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: was pretty much committed to making changes, and it took
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: a long time, but I did make those changes and
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: I incorporated them into my life.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been fascinating to hear some of those other
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: stories that came later. And it seems like that you've
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: had these moments of time where you've either been able
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: to be involved with a company like Intel, and then
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: you go through this, through this journey maybe in the
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: wilderness to a degree, right, Yeah, and then you come
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: up with another idea that consumes your creative efforts, and
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: then it seems like you come back into the wilderness again.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: And as I remember you mentioning that you spent quite
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: some time in the wilderness of Wyoming, is that is
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: such an interesting story. What brought you to decide to
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: literally go solo, off the grid completely into the middle
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: of nowhere? And then what did you learn from that experience?
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: So there again, and you're right about that.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: I have gone through these cycles, and that was, I
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: guess the second major cycle that I went through. I'd
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: done some engineering consulting, and I'd had a couple of
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: businesses at that point, but I was really at a
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: turning point in my life where again I was searching
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: for meaning. If you will and I decided that I
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: needed to take a time out and I needed to
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: do something really solitary. Yeah, large extent. So I got
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: involved with this rebuilt property care tape. And there are
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: people out there that have these large tracks of remote land.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: They want somebody out there to kind of keep an
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: eye on things. And these are jobs that nobody wants
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: because they're hard, they're scary, they don't pay anything. I mean,
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: it's you know, it's a miserable deal. So I got
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: those jobs easily. Yeah, so I'll take them.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: So.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing in Wyoming, there was a guy that
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: owned a twenty one square mile ranch. There was an
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: old homestead on it that was at the bottom of
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: a valley. The homestead was built in I think eighteen
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: ninety or eighteen ninety one. You know, none of the
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: buildings were habitable at this point, but he wanted to
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: start to do some restoration on him and I said
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: I would work on that. Yeah. I lived out there
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: for an entire summer. I moved in early May in
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: the middle of a snowstorm. That was the beginning of
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: it for me, and spent the whole summer out there.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: And did you find that, I mean maybe it's the
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: combination of that. But what did the physical work do
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: for you? Was that something that you enjoyed, and what
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: did you learn from that? And then I would suspect
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: that you probably had a lot of time for stillness
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: and my personal thought and what you learn from that
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: quiet time?
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, it was a lot of physical work, for sure.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: I was pretty exhausted at the end of each day.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: And it was also the most solitude that I'd ever
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: experienced in my life. I mean, even the times when
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: I've done a lot of solo traveling and I've done
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of backpacking solo, but they've been for a
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: few days at a time, or a week, you know,
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: maybe even up to two weeks. But we're talking about
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: an entire summer without with hardly any human contact, and
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: that was a much different thing. And you really you
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: really get inside your own head in that time. You know,
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: there's a period of time where you don't feel it
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: so much. And then beyond that, you really you really
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: have to learn to live with yourself, and you really
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: have to understand yourself. You have to understand your fears
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: and face them. You have to understand your anxieties and
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: face them. So I think that it gave me confidence
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: actually in myself. And it could have gone either way.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: I suppose I could have gone streaming into the night,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: you know, But I found that I could count on myself,
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: and I found that I wasn't the worst company, and
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: it gave me a chance to really sort through a
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: lot of things that I was out there to do.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: And you know, by the way, where I was, there
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: was no communication of any kind. There was no cell phone,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: there was no internet, there was no anything. And so
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: not only was I without human contact, but I was
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: without any sort of safety line. Yeah, so if a
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: rattlesnake got me, or if an animal got me, or
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: if I fell and broke a leg, it could be
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: weeks before I was found, if I was ever found.
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, you may have just gone back into the
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: environment in a.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Way, right might have.
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: I might have just gone back into the environment. That's interesting.
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: When I first got out of the Air Force, I
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: knew that I didn't want to move back to California
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: where I grew up, and I moved onto my aunt
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: and uncle's ranch, and it was a fifty six thousand
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: acre ranch and there were people there. My aunt and
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: uncle were there, and my wife at the time was
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: there and everything else. But it was some of my
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: best memories because you would wake up in the morning
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: and you'd put a saddle on a horse and you
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: would ride fence line and it was just it was
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: actually a very beautiful existence. And I knew it was
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: not what I wanted to do with my life, but
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: to do that for a year and a half while
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: I was going, all I was doing was working on
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: the ranch and going to college, and that was I
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: learned a lot about myself during that time. So I
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: think it's good for it. And maybe that's what draws
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: so many of us as overlanders to the outdoors, to
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: the back country, is this idea of let's get remote,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: Let's get some stillness, even if it's with just the
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: people that we love, but get some stillness, get some
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: time in our heads, and figure out that we actually
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: like our own company, and we build some confidence that
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: we could then apply to life after that fact.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's really I think there's really a
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: couple of aspects of that. One is that you need
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: to change the scenery because you need a change of
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: reference frame for your life. You know, if you wake
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: up every morning, you look out the same window, you
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: see the same things, and after a while you know
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: your brain just naturally doesn't see anything. Yeah. But if
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: you wake up every morning and you look at it,
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: and you look out a different window and you see
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: something different than it forces you to assimilate things in
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: a new way. It will bring things to you that
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: you wouldn't have ordinarily learned. And then the stillness is
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: the other part of this, and that is the assimilation
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: of what you've learned. In other words, you learn a
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: lesson and then you have to internalize it, and that
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: comes through the stillness. Yeah. So travel allows us both
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: of those. It allows us a new frame of reference,
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: and it allows us the time and the luxury to
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: assimilate those things.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and oftentimes we don't. We're so bombarded with communications
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: and entertainment and a distraction that we really don't have
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: that time to be still and learn the lessons and
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: realize that we've gained a lot of confidence as travelers
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: or whatever else. Now, coming back a little bit to
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: the top truck challenge, what were some of the things
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: from that vehicle that you realized worked really well and
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: you would want to incorporate into future projects, and then
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: maybe what were some things that you realize that you
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: wouldn't incorporate into future projects.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: Well, of course, even back then, I had a real
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: appreciation of the value of keeping a vehicle light, keeping
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: the center gravity low, and those sorts of things. And
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: what was the vile that you had for that started
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: out with a started out being a seventy three Ford
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: f two fifty. But I mean from there, you know,
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: it went down to a bare frame. The frame got
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: severely modified. Parts came in from all over the place.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, it almost was a handmade vehicle by the
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: time it was done. Wow. Only the only things I
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: used off the original vehicle were I think the cab itself,
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: the doors, and the frame. Wow. And that's about it. Wow.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Everything else came from somewhere else. The motor came from
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: somewhere else. The transmission, a lot of the suspension I
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: designed and built myself, a lot of the chassis work
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I designed myself. A lot of engineering in that truck. Yeah,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: a lot of time, a lot of handwork. And the
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: funny thing was they didn't have a lot of money
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: at the time, so I built a lot of that
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: using very crude tools. You know, I didn't have like
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: a big machine shop and all this capability laser cutting
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: this and that. Everything hand cut and you know, stick welding,
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: which I mean is amazing that I was able to
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: put together what I did, but I did so. Yeah.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: So I think that, you know, just the balance of everything,
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: just the fact that it was a balanced vehicle sure
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: in terms of the suspension, the engine and everything, that
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: nothing overpowered anything else, right, And I think some of
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: that came from I've done a lot of different automotive ventures.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: Like like I mentioned, I autocross raced and did some
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: other types of racing. I raced motorcycles as well. I
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: learned a lot from all my other automotive ventures and
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: I incorporated those into my truck because I wanted my
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: truck to handle well, I wanted to drive well. It
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: needed to be a multipurpose type vehicle.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Ultimately, I wanted it to be able to endure, yeah,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: survive something like the top truck challenge, right, exactly, right,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: because there were a number of challenges and they were
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: you know, they were very very difficult. A lot of
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the things were very difficult and certainly not suited for
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: something that was to specialized this mind. Here's the interesting
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: thing about it. I completed every challenge except for one.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: There was only one challenge that I decided not to account.
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: And that was a really steep hill climb, and I
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: was my carburetor really wasn't able to function on that
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: steep of a hill. If it had been a little
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: bit shorter hill, I would have made it. But it
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: was a long hill, it was pretty technical and it
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: was very steep. Sure, and I saw one vehicle nearly
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: roll on it. It was a guy in a unimogu
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: that got halfway up and couldn't make it. Yeah, he
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: tried to get down and ended up sideways. And we
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: started clear now I mean people run it because we
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: thought that damn unimog was coming down. I was going
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: to clear a wide path. But so after that, I decided,
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: you know, it just wasn't risk. It wasn't worth resking
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: my vehicle.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Sure, sure, something you'd work so hard to build, right,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: exactly right.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: I wanted to live to fix that and go another day.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: And by the way, one of the first things I
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: did when I got back was I ripped off that
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: carburetor and I engineered a fuel injection system for it. Yeah,
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: so that's one thing that I learned for sure mechanically. Yeah.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: In fact, that's funny. One of my first off road
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: vehicles that I had was a nineteen fifty three M
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: thirty eight A one jeep and it had a two
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: eighty nine V eight swap in it, which is common
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: for that vehicle, and I had carburetors on it in
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: the beginning, and it just I was constantly climbs and
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: getting stuck because of the I mean, I wasn't a
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: very good driver either, but you know, I was learning
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: so much, but the vehicle wasn't helping. And when I
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: went to fuel injection on that, it just totally changed
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: the way that I could operate operate the jeep. It
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: really made a big difference. But it's funny how some carburetors, though,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: work great. I mean, I had a nineteen eighty four
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Toyota pickup that had a carburetor on it and it
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: never gave me any trouble on climb. So I think
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: it's probably has a lot to do with how the
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: carburetor is designed, and probably the orientation of the fuel
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: bowls and everything else like that. But plus it being
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: a really small displacement for cylinder. It probably wasn't getting
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: flooded as easily, but it worked fine on climbs, most climbs,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: most climbs. But right, yeah, well, that top Truck Challenge
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: for me was one of my first exposures to this
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff. I remember reading all of those early
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: four wheeler magazines and just being completely wide eyed and
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: wanting to do the top truck Challenge and wanting to
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: and ultimately I believe that that event lost its way
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: because they were no longer street legal, or they were
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: very loose interpretations of being street legal vehicles, which I
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: think stole so much of the charm of the event.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: And I even suspect that Rick Paiway, who was so
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: involved with designing the event, I think he would have
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: preferred to it have kept that spirit of those first
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: couple events, maybe like the first four or five years.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: Once they were kind of a loose interpretation of a car,
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: then you realize that you were no longer looking at
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: individuals capabilities or individuals innovations. It was just it was
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: a bunch of truggies, Yeah, a bunch of a bunch
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: of two frame vehicles, which is too bad. But hopefully
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: they consider doing something like that again, but keeping it
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: back as a door slammer. All the safety systems have
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: to be in place and certain limitations. Because that was
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: such a neat and inspiring event for me, and it
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: was that, paired with the Camel Trophy, that formed so
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: many of my early inspirations towards you know, vehicle projects
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: and vehicle performance and and all of that, and that
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: ultimately led to my passion for travel.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: So it was a really grassroots thing and it was
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: neat in fact, you know, in that very first edition
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: there was me. There was a guy named Sonny Honeger. Yeah,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: who's been you know, active in the sport legend. Yeah, legend.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: He was in the very first one with a samurai right. No, No,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: he was. He he had a war wagon.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Oh but didn't he end up becoming like a samurai guy.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: He was, Well, he was a samurai guy.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: And he also had a thing called a rock spider
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: that he built with the very first really high articulation
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: rock climbing. Sure. I mean he was a he was
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: really a leader innovator, Yeah, very much an innovator. And
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: I was an innovator. I mean a lot of the
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: things that were on my truck actually showed up other
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: places after that. Sure. But and then there was Rick Payway.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: He was one of the original competitors. Yeah, he wasn't
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: with the magazine at that point. Oh, just a guy
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: with a GPW with a four hundred and some cubic engineer.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, what a neat guy.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: Oh. Rick was so cool. And you know, one of
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: the things about Rick is that jeep. He was almost
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: like a cyborg with that jeep.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: He was one with the machine.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: He was one with the machine. Yeah, I mean he
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: could absolutely handle that thing in any circumstance and he
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: could control every aspect of that vehicle. Yeah. Really fun
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: to watch him drive that.
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's he's such a such a character. I've always
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: enjoyed getting a chance to travel with him when I do.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: But you know, I haven't spoken to him since the event. Yeah,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I love to meet him again. And yeah, and I
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: think he's back in I think he's back in Arizona now. Yeah,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: So maybe we'll find a way to get him up
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: for lunch.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, do that absolutely, because I'd love to talk
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: to yeah that time.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: That would be great. Speaking of innovation, you at some
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: point in your journey you started producing products for the
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: archery industry. Talk a little bit about what you were
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: making and what was different about it and what makes
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: those bows still desirable today.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: Well, I had been involved in archery since the seventies,
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: so it had been a long time ash of mine,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: but it was one that i'd kind of set aside
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: because of life demands and so forth. I kind of
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: hit a lull, a lull in my life, and I decided, well,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: you know, it's a chance for me to pick up
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: archery again. So I went back to shooting my old bows,
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: and I just realized there were a lot of shortcomings
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: with them, and a lot of really a lot of
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: the basics of what I needed weren't there. So I
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: just went back and started redesigning these bows based on
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: just the fundamentals of what makes an arrow fly.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I just went back to the very
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: most basic, essential, first principles of what makes an arrow
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: fly out of a bow, and I designed a bow
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: up from that, and that bow pretty much revolutionized that
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: part of archery.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: It was a metal riser. It used it used the
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: limbs off Olympic bows, which were already highly developed. So
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: I had the best limbs in the world, and now
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I had the best riser in the world, and I
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: put the two of them together and it was it
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: was magic. And of course, you know, like anybody that
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: upsets an industry like that, I had my detractors for sure.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: I had, you know, people that loved me and people
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: that didn't. There's no question that it redirected the entire industry. Wow.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: And now there are lots of offerings around those lines.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: My bow still after all these years, the bow that
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: I designed is still at the top of the Epquiack,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: a friend of mine won the senior men's World Championship IBO.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: I think last year, maybe the year before with my bow. Wow. Yeah,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: So it's still out there. There's still people shooting. It's
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: very sowed after sure, a way more now than I
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: ever sold it for. I wish I had a couple
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: of dozen. Yeah. Yeah, what a neat thing.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: And a special thanks to one of this week's sponsors,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: Rumpel Blankets. Rumpell started literally in the back of a van.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Their story is interesting. They were on a surf and
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: ski trip through California and the founders of Rumpel were
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: sleeping in a van several miles up a dirt road
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: near a secret hot springs. It woke up the next
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: morning and sub zero temperatures in a car that wouldn't start.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: They were outside of cell reception and confronted with the
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: real possibility of a long walk into town. So instead
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: they decided to bundle up in their sleeping bags and
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: drink whiskey while they waited for someone else to show up.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: And that turned into hours, and the conversation extended on
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: to the subject of bedding, and they came up with
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: Rumpele blankets. Their most popular product is the original Puffy blanket.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: It is their flagship product and it's available in a
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: one person, a two person, and a junior size. I
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: have used the two person for many years. I keep
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: it as part of my kit at lives in the
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: vehicle just in case I run into a situation similar
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: to what they did where I'm stranded and need some
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: additional warmth and insulation. It's also really useful for around
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: the campfire when you want that little bit of extra comfort.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: I'll also use it when sleeping in the vehicle, and
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: then they are just the right size or a roof
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: tent as well. So these are really high quality blankets
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: that are weather resistant, they're made from recycled materials, they're washable,
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: and they have very durable fabrics and construction, which makes
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: them ideal for overland travel. Check out rumplex blanket. And
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: when you talk about your travels, I noticed that you
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: have this theme of kind of simplicity and minimalism and
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: kind of bringing it back again to overlanding. You have
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: recently been designing and manufacturing your interpretation of what a
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: fully enclosed expedition camper should be. I think it would
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: be good to talk about that as a subject with
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: the listeners, because one thing that I have found in
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: this industry is that people get away from, or they
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: don't prioritize the things in campers that are actually the
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: most essential attributes of campers, and they focus a lot
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: on the things that are not essential or if they
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: stop working, isn't the end of the world. So, for example,
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: one of the things that I see oftentimes done poorly
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: is either the insult of properties of the camper or
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: the weather protection of the camper. You and I were
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: talking earlier today about Maslov's hierarchy of needs, and we
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: somehow are more interested in the LCD placement of the
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: TV than we are in the r value of the camper,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: or where the water lines run in the camper, those
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: are water lines, or if they're even our water lines,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: which the absence of water lines is actually better than
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: water lines, I think for those that are listening, when
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: you look to buy a camper, start off with what
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: is the most What is the first principle of what
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: this thing should do, which is protect you from the weather.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: It should be a retreat from the storm. Now, that
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: can be easily determined by where you like to travel.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: If your travel is ninety nine percent in the southwest
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: in Baja, then maybe that camper can have some fabric
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: sides to it. And it's not a primary consideration, but
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: if your plan is to travel from from Prudho Bay
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: down to Ushwaya in any weather, then you're going to
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: want to minimize those mechanical moving components and those wear points.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Just the number of fabric sided campers that I've seen
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: fail just due to high vibration frequency on corrugations. Those
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: wear points, they show up very quickly. So from your perspective,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: having traveled so much and built your own campers and
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: everything else like that, what do you see as being
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: those first principles and those core maybe three to five
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: elements that people need to look for in a camper
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: before they even consider if it has a TV or not.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: So I think the things that are most important for
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: me are I think number one, the ability to sleep well. Yeah,
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: because sleep is a fundamental of life, and you start
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: losing sleep, things are going to go downhill, going to
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: go downhill for you very quickly. So you have to
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: be comfortable enough to sleep. You need protection from the
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: most severe weather for sure, and you need a way
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: to prepare food inside in the event that the weather
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: doesn't allow you to do it outside. And after that,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: the list starts getting a lot thinner, you know, and
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: it's just really basic stuff. You need to carry a
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: little bit of water, you need to have a way
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: to filter it. But that's really kind of it for me. Yeah,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: then everything after that is a luxury. I mean, the
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: things up to that point are things that you really need.
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: Everything after that I think is a luxury.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: And you mentioned that that after those basal components are satisfied,
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: it actually becomes more of an emotional decision. And I
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: think that and I can understand why because in the
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: times that I've looked at campers and trailers and things
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: like that, I have found myself being very emotional about
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: things like, Oh, it's got this really comfortable shower, and
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: it's got this you know, it'll have one hundred gallons
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: of hot water on board or whatever, and you really
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: start to gravitate towards those luxuries, which I would not
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: suggest for a moment that those are things that you
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: shouldn't consider. It's just understanding that after those core attributes
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: of lightness, because payload is always a consideration, and even
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: if you have a one ton truck with a five
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: thousand pound payload, any pound that you add will degrade
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: the performance of the vehicle. So even if it has
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: a payload, use a small percentage of it so that
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: you gain back performance in the way that the vehicle
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: works off highway, and how efficient it is economy that
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: you get it's going to cost you less to ship
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: the thing. All of that is going to be a
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: factor in it. So I think it's that durability of
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: the structure, its ability to protect you from weather, and
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: the lightness of the camper which directly correlates to performance
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: and payload, particularly on a vehicle like a Tacoma. That
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: is something I think that's worth us talking about a
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: little bit, because your original impetus for this camper was
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: how do I build a camper for myself that will
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: work within the very limited payload capacity of a tacoma.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: So talk a little bit about how you achieved that
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: in the ways that you can share with the public.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: But what were some of the core ways that you
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: achieved fully enclosed camper that fits within the payload of
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: a tacoma.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Well, I think one of the things that you need
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: to be able to do anytime you tackle a project
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: like this is due not let yourself get pulled down
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: the road already traveled. You need to back up. You
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: need to back all the way up to the beginning,
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: and you need to ask the questions that we're just
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: talking about, and then you need to look around and
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: see what the best materials are they can achieve these.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that I realized is that
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: there were materials out there. You know, the materials had
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: gone way ahead of the technology in this area. A
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: lot of the technology in this area was really a
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: set up back in the sixties and hasn't really changed much.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: So I looked at entirely new ways of constructing this thing.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I found some materials, talked to a lot of experts.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: A lot of experts told me I could never do this. Yeah,
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: talked to some three M engineers and so forth. They said, well,
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: it's a great material, but you can't work with it,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: you can't bond, and you can't do this, you can't
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: do that. Well, I figured out how to do all that,
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: and we figured out how to put together a shell
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: using thermoplastic honeycomb. It's a fiber reinforced material. It's extremely lightweight,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: it's very thermally efficient, it's very sound efficient, it's incredibly durable.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can beat on this stuff with a
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: ball peen hammer and not if I can work on it. Yeah.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: I remember when you first got one of the small
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: section of tests. Yeah, panel, you said, Scott, come over here,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: and you handed me I think the biggest crescent wrench
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: you had, I think is what it was, and you
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: just set this whale on this sale. We didn't even
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: I mean we left like the smallest cosmetic cosmetic mark.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: It was nothing structural, nothing structure, and I was hitting
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: it as hard as I could.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Exactly and you know, there's nobody else you can take
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: a ball being hammer to just walk around Expo and
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: start hitting people's hammer campers with hammer and see what happened.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: It's not going to work out so well. But our
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: camper can you know, except for cosmetically, you're not going
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: to see any damage from that kind of that kind
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: of very strong material, and.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: That translates directly to rush and trees and you know,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: trail impacts and things like that.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: All kinds of deflections. The other thing about it is
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: that the methodology that we developed for joining the panels
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: allows for flexible joints. The joints are actually designed to
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: be flexible as I was apposed to be rigid, and
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: so they can flex almost indefinitely without failing. Whereas if
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: you try to build a ridgid joint, no matter how
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: rig you make it, it's eventually going to fail due
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: to fatigue. So fatigue is the killer. But if you
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: design something to move, then it's not it's not suffering
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: that same kind sure, and that's what we done.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: And it seems like you're those long joints being able
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: to flex and move, but you still have the strength
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: of triangulation. That's come from the angles that you've incorporated
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: into the camper. And how much without adding a lot
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: of accessories, I guess at its basic weight, how much
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: does your Tacoma camper way excluding the flatbed, just the
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: camper camper.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Alone with everything in, it's going to weigh about four
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: hundred pounds. Yeah, but I've removed the bed in order
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: to put it on because it's a flatbed and everything,
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: and it's only added about two hundred and fifty pounds
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: to the stock Tacoma weight, which is about the weight
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: of a fiberglass canopy. Yeah. Right, So for the weight
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: of a camper shell, I have a camper I can
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: stand up in, and I can sleep in, I can
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: cook in, yeah, and I can carry a certain amount
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: of gear. So yeah, to me, it's a real luxury.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: And it's got a very low center of gravity. The
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: entire roof of the camper can be lifted on fingertips.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Four people can lift it on a fingertip. Yeah. So
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: that's how light it is, so almost no weight high up.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Even though it may look large, it looks tall, there's
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: no way on it.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just air volumes, air volume, right, Yeah, Yeah,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: just I'm going to repeat that one more time for
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: those that are listening. So the net increase to the
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: weight of the Tacoma after your camper and flatbed is
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: only two hundred and fifty pounds. That's amazing, and I
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: think that that needs to be what camper manufacturers start
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: to look at more seriously. Is you can't put a
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: twelve hundred pound camper on the back of a Tacoma
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: and expect it to work, because you're at one hundred
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: percent of the payload capacity before you even add water
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: or a person or your dog or hair brush, not
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: in our case, but you know, or whatever, hair, hair
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: dryer or whatever. You know, Before you add anything to it,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: you've already consumed one hundred percent of the available payload
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: of the vehicle. So the fact that there are campers
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: like yours, and there are other manufacturers that are starting
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: to make lighter campers as well, which is so encouraging.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: But the fact that you can have a net increase
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: over the stock vehicle of over two hundred and fifty
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: pounds and have a bed and a place to stay
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: and in a place to cook and completely out of
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: the elements, that's a new standard for the industry, and
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: it's so encouraging to see. Another thing that I really
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: liked about your camper is that you decided not to
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: incorporate a whole bunch of complex systems. If you want
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: to cook inside the camper, bring in a stove and
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: cook inside the camper. But most of the time people
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: cook outside, right because you don't want your camper to
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: smell like salmon. You want, you know, the outdoors to
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: smell like salmon, or you want to cook over a fire,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: or you want to you know, and certainly using a
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: jet boil on the countertop to make coffee in the
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: morning is an easy thing. So I actually think not
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: incorporating a stove is smart.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well for my personal camper, I think people would
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: be surprised at how smart it is because the camper,
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: to me is only a place to take refuge to sleep.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: If I can be in the outdoors, I'm going to
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: be in the outdoors. That's where I'm going to make
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: my coffee, is where I'm going to cook my breakfast,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: That's where I'm going to do everything. So yeah, I
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: don't have a lot of built in stuff, but you know,
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: there is the option to build those things into the
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: shell if you're sure you're still going to end up
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: with a lighter camper. You know, the less you can
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: do with the more your mindset is a minimalist philosophy,
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: then the more you're going to benefit from all this.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: And you know, the benefit for me is I have
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: a tacoma that I could drive one hundred miles an hour,
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: you know, down a washboard road with be able to
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: control it. And you know, I would never try to
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: do that with one thousand pound camper on my back
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: and insane as something god sideways, I'd be rolling. So
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: this thing is, you know, it's a phenomenal, a phenomenally
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: good handling vehicle. As a result of it, capable view.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: And the use of the of the flatbed gains so
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: much interior volume because you're not having that lost space
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: with the wheel wells and the width of the bed
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: construction and you're gaining all of that back in interior space.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: So it's and the way that you've designed the flatbed
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: is also very clever with how it hinges and at
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: where it has those triangulated load points and everything else
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: like that. It's very very very clever. You know, it's
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: good to see that it's good to see campers like
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: yours coming to market. It looks like Scout Campers got
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: you know, very simple systems in it as well, which
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: keeps the weight much lower for tacomas and things like that.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: So and it looks like a lot of other manufacturers
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: are taking note of the fact that you can't in
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: good conscience sell a camper that is exactly equal to
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: the payload of the vehicle, because who's going to drive it?
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: You know, like as soon as you put a human
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: in there, your way over payloads.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: So there's so many tacomas out there that are way
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: over payload. They really are. And you know, it's a
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: testament to the durability of the tacoma. Yeah, they're amazing vehicles.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but still, you know, it's I think of it,
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: and I've heard this analogy of thinking of your vehicle
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: as a as an animal or something, you know, and
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: having some compassion for it. Yeah, you know, mechanical sympathy, right,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: mechanical sympathy. Yeah, that's that's a good way of looking
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: at it.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I wouldn't overload a horse and expect it to
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: carry all this craft for me, you know, if I
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: had to load a horse up, I'd get off and
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: walk myself. Yeah, I think having some sympathy and just
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: having some respect for the fact that this thing is
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: so well engineered that it's it's incredibly reliable. These vehicles
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: that we have today are so incredibly reliable. Yeah, that
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: we become complacent about it. Yeah, but we shouldn't because
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: they are still mechanical things that they can still fail.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: Well, it's something as simple as the fact that that
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: the back twenty percent of the Tacoma frame is unboxed.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: As you put more and more weight after the rear axle,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: it puts an enormous amount of leverage on that frame member,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: and so much so that there are aftermarket kits that
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: you can weld on to strengthen the frame. Even once
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: you start to deal with articulation loads and leverage imparted
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: on the rear frame members. It's a really good idea
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: to strengthen the hangars the rear for the rear shackles,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: and so being very mindful about the fact if you
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: keep the Tacoma light, it will last you a quarter
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: million miles all day long. When we get it up,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I think about my own Tacoma project, my first big
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: project that I did was on a four door Tacoma
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: two thousand and four. I loaded it up, and I'll
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: admit it on this podcast. It was over seven pounds
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: and that was totally wrong. I added so many things
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: that it didn't need. I didn't think about the fact
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that it is. It is a light duty truck that
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: needs to be treated kind of like a backpack, not
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: a freightliner. You know, it needs to be treated like
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: a backpack. And if I had built that truck differently,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: I know that I would have enjoyed it more and
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: it would have performed better. But it's amazing the things
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: that I had to do to the vehicle just to
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: make it work. How low I had to go with
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: the axle gearing to get it to move around, the
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: changes I had to make to the brakes, the changes
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: I had to make to the frame, and all of
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: those things could have been avoided if I had just
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: kept it much lighter and it was still a vehicle
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: with a roof tent. It's not like it like I
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: had a camper on there. I just added too much jump. Yeah,
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: it didn't fundamentally change your experience.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: No, it didn't.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: It could have been so easy just to have a
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: ground tent and I call it a day.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean shared a little story with you back
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: from my backpacking days, you know. But started out with
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: my backpacking probably around sixty sixty pounds something like that, yeah,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: which you know, a lot of people start out here
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: and then you get lighter and lighter lighter as you go. Well,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: I finally got down to where I was below thirty
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: pounds for a and I eventually got down below twenty
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: pounds for a five day pack. But at one point
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: I bought this little hammock and I thought, man, you know,
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: what a great thing it is going to be to
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: have this hammock at the end of the day. I
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: had these, you know, visions in my head of swinging
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: from a hammock. Sure a hard day, right, And I
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: started carrying this thing around with me along with other stuff,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: you know, and I finally came to the realization that
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: the real luxury wasn't having that hammock at the end
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: of the day. The real luxury was not having to
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: carry it forty miles. That was the real luxury. Now.
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I mean I could sit on the log, I could
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: get in the grass, you know, I mean I could
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: do all those kinds of things, and I didn't have
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: to carry them there. Yeah, and so those were the
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: kinds of mental processes that I went through that I
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: carry over into my vehicle philosophy as well. You know
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: that sometimes the greatest luxury is the thing you don't carry.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: You don't have to worry about being stolen. Sure, you
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: don't have to maintain all of those kinds of things.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: So, talking about your current Tacoma project, you've had since
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: the vehicle was almost new. How long have you had
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: your Tacoma ten plus years? Yeah, I bought it with
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: thirty thousand miles on it.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: What are some of the things that you have done
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: to that truck that you most appreciate that the changes
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: that you made made the best difference for the vehicle
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: for your kind of travel. I think, I think, and
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: this is kind of true of any vehicle, but I
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: think the tires and the suspension were the best thing.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: And then after that I did some chassis work. You know,
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: I've done extensive work on that truck. Yeah, it's hardly
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: recognizable at this point, but yeah, you know, the tires
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: and suspension were really the biggest thing.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: And what is your current favorite tire for the vehicle.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: I prefer a two fifty five eighty five sixteen, but
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: I also like the two thirty five eighty five sixteen.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: I like skinny tires, and I don't like large tires
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: because the mechanical loads that they put on the vehicle
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: are just way too great. I think one thing that
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: you know where people go wrong with tires is that
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: they don't really consider the weight of the tire. And
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: when you go to a much larger you're going to
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: get a heavier tire. But even with smaller tires, there
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of a lot of difference between the
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: weight and tire. Yeah, And what I typically try to
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: tell people is that if you add a if you
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: hadd a pound to your tire weight, it's like adding
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: ten pounds to twelve pounds to your payload. Yeah. So
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: like within the two fifty five eighty five sixteen, you
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: can there's like a forty to fifty pound range over
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: four tires depending on manufacture. Right, So that's four hundred
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: and five that's four hundred to five hundred pounds of
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: payload essentially that you're putting on the truck. If you
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: look at it in terms of breaking acceleration and even
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: things like the way the suspension. Oh, I see what
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: you're saying.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: So the reciprocating, because it's reciprocating mass, it has much
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: more leverage on the system than some kind of a
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: static load or even dynamic that's affixed to the vehicle.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Right, it's all dynamic loads. It's either rotating mass or
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: it's reciprocating. Yes, and in this case it's both. It's both.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: So you're trying to accelerate it, stop it, and control it. Right,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: So you're right having paying attention to the tires. And
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: that's a good point if you have a lightweight vehicle, like,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: don't put an E rated tire on your Samurai because
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: it's going to be hard to get it down to
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: a low enough pressure to deform properly. And then you're
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: hauling around a bunch of unnecessary weight, right that the
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: vehicle just doesn't under any conditions need right, you know,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: because it's so lightweight to begin with. Yeah, that's a
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: really good point and something that's important for people to remember.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: What are some of the things that you've done on
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: your suspension that you feel made the biggest difference on
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: your Tacoma.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: You actually alluded to it earlier. But the rear frame
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: on the Tacoma's is pretty flexible, and so I've done
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of chassis work back there, and I also
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: have done some cross chassis work to strengthen the spring
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: hangers in the rear because the way they're designed on
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: a Tacoma, the spring hangers will deflect under load. So
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: I have a system in there that keeps the spring
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: hangers from deflecting. Okay, well, everything stays in alignment. But
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: everything that I've done is very careful not to stiffen
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: the frame in terms of this ladder type flexibility because
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: that's actually part of the suspension. And and if you
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: make if you do away with all that ladder type flexibility,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: then you're going to end up with a with just
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: a board. You know, you're not going to have You're
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: not going to have any kind of articulation yah vehicle
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: because the actual suspension, the actual articulation from the suspension
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: is not that much. Yeah, but I mean I can
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: roll over an eighteen inch rock without deflecting anything else. Yeah,
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: so you know I still have all that flexibility in there. Well,
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: that's an interesting point. And if we strengthen members of
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: the frame that were designed by Toyota engineers to flex
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: or to rotate, et cetera. Then all of that leverage
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: is going to be put somewhere else, and maybe it'll
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: be at a frame crack. And I actually experienced that
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: in Greenland with the high Lux which Highlux frame is
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: boxed all the way to the back, and these had
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: been reinforced because they suspensions were changed from lease spring
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: to coil spring to accommodate the forty four inch tall tires.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: And we actually had a frame failure on a Highlux
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: well after it went into a crevass, but that's another story.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: But yeah, we actually had a frame failure because of
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: the fact that it had been so heavily reinforced in
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: one area that it actually broke at the area that
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: it was most lightly reinforced. So yeah, you're right, it's
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: just going to move those leverage points someplace else, those
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: failure modes to some other place. Whereas a stock to
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: coma frame is flexible enough where it'll take those inputs
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: and it'll move and flex much like a spring would,
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: and you want to.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Allow it to continue to do that. Whereas if you
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: get over payload. Then you have to try to fix
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: that because then you get this huge beaming effect and
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: all these other changes and characteristics. So yeah, you're right
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: keeping it light. Then you don't have to do too
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: much on that because I remember when I looked at
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: your what you did in the back of the frame.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: You you actually retained the ability for the frame to flex, right,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: because of those joints that you incorporated.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: That's correct, Yeah, yeah, And I want to stress to
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: you that a lot of these types of changes are
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: serious engineering challenges. Yeah, and they're not necessary intuitive to
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: the average garage type modifier. So if you're going to
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: make these modifications, be very careful, yeah, because like you said,
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: you know, you stiffen one thing up, you're going to
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: move the stress to somewhere else. There's that gone, and
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: is that going to be you know, potentially hazardous or sure?
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: Everything has a consequence, right, everything has a consequence.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's so easy to forget that. You know,
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: we every time we change something on the vehicle, we
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: do make it oftentimes less reliable. There are very rare
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: occasions where, especially in a Toyota, there are very rare occasions,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: and making modifications to those vehicles make them more reliable.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: Like one that comes to mind is on the eight
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: series there's a small heater hose at the backside of
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: the block, and if you upgrade that to a much
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: better quality heater hose, then you can reduce a failure mode.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: But there are very few of those kind of modifications.
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: So with every time we change the vehicle, we're affecting
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: those engineered systems and those redundancies and those offers that
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: the engineers from Toyota incorporate that make them so reliable.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: So just being mindful of let's do less of that
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: and keep it as close as stock as we can,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: or or only change the things that we really really
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: need right to have changed for sure.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: And there again, if we keep things light, then the
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: need to do those things becomes minimal.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's right. Yeah, you really don't have to make
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: that many changes. It all works together, you know. It's
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: just like, you know, getting back to backpacking. You know,
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: I carried an Arctics pack for a long time, fantastic pack,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: Carry huge amounts of weight in that thing. But I
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: realized that, you know, when I got.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: My pack down to nineteen pounds, I was carrying it
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: around in a twelve pound pack. Yeah, and I didn't
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: need a twelve pound pack anymore.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: Right down to a three pound pack.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: Again. You know, if you can, if you can cut
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: down to what you have to take, then then the
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: means to carry it becomes far easier. Yeah.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Expense is lower, fuel economy is better, driving experience is better.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Along those lessons learned, I do like to ask this
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: of our guests, what are some of your favorite books
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: and all of your readings and that time that you
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: were able to spend alone, you know, in Wyoming and
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: maybe on a Sunday and reading a good book. What
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: are some of your faie books that you've read in
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: your in your life.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: That's a really tough question to answer because I read
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: a lot of books. I read all the classics, and
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: I've read almost everything from people like Hemyway, Stein, Steinbeck
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: or well, all of these people Abby. I really enjoyed Abby.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: I read everything they've written, and I've read a lot
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: of other authors. I think if I had to pick
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: one book, and this is just a disservice to everybody else,
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, but it would maybe be Victor Frankel's Man
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: Search for the Little book, little paperback book, and if
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: people haven't read that, they should take the time to
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: read it because it's it's it's a quick read and
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: it's pretty profound in a lot.
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: Of ways for those that are listening. I read that
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: book recently and it talks about this gentleman's experience in
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: the Nazi concentration camps, and it by the time you
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: get finished with his story, it was it was profound,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: and it was just extremely humbling, and it's a reminder
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: of how life can change so quickly. And also it
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: shows the possibility of the human spirit. What he endured
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: and how he came out of the other side of
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: it with his own humility and his own awareness around
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: life and others. Yeah, it's a really powerful book. It's
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: something that people should take the time to read. And
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: I've heard that recommended by others as well. I would
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: I would definitely second that recommendation for sure. And you know,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: he makes the point in there that some of the
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: strongest individuals were the first to go. Yeah, it's the
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: people that are the most flexible. Yeah, adaptable, adaptable, not
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: the strongest necessary. Yeah, no, that is so true. Yeah,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: the ones that I remember him saying that the ones
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: that were sure they'd be out by Christmas, or sure
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: they'd be out by by whatever holiday, those were usually
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: the ones that would give up the quickest. Yeah, and
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: I can't even imagine. I don't apply any experience towards
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: those thoughts that I just shared. It's just what I
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: gleaned from him. His insights into that experience is very,
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: very profound. Sure, is there any others that come to mind?
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: Well, if you want to read an author that's still alive,
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: one that I read recently is Ryan Holiday's Silence is
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: the Key.
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Stillness is the key.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: Stillness is the key. Yeah, that's an easy read as well,
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: great read. Yeah, but it's it's it's a very good read,
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: and I think it has a lot of lessons for
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: modern society. Yeah, and I think a lot of people
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: are really suffering now. I mean, you know, you and
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: I grew up in a time before so much noise. Yeah,
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: you know, and now there's this constant distractions social media
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: and everything else. You know, But at least we have
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: we have our roots in a time when there wasn't that,
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: so we're a little maybe a little better at coping
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: with it. But where a lot of people, it's overwhelming. Yeah,
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: and they don't even know it. They know you realize
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: the negative effects that it's having on them. But this
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: book makes you think about that and uh, you know,
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: maybe it'll change your habits a little bit. Yeah.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: It's a beautifully curated piece from the stoics, and it's
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: probably the book that I've gifted more than anything else.
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: Is that book.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: So that's another wonderful recommendation. And yet and I think
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: it very much applies to travel. Yeah, we have such
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: short periods of time to have these experiences. If we
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: can find a way to get into the right mindset
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: of just being open to those experiences sooner where we
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: can uncouple from our devices and our day to day
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: and our and our patterns and everything else and become
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: the traveler. The more quickly we can do that and
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: be open to those changes, the more profound our trips,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: I think are. So I really see that as being
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: another great volume for people to read for sure.
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: Well, and it really gets to the point that, you know,
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: travel at its essence is in our head. We think
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: about it as an external thing, but it really is
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: an internal thing.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: Travel is a chance for us to frame our life
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: and ourselves and the world in a way that we
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: haven't seen it and to internalize that. You know, the
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: travel is I think a necessary part of it, because
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: when we're wrapped up in our daily, mundane lives, it's
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: very difficult to see it beyond that. And so when
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: you're out there, you're able to see beyond it. But ultimately,
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: the travel that happens, the journey that you're on, is
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: in your head. Yeah, and so you can have it
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: fifty minutes from your house, so you can have it
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: fifty thousand miles away. Yeah. Sure, I know the little
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: story I'll share with you if you feel allowed. Yeah,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: for sure. Yeah, I love it. I'd love to experiment
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: with these kinds of things with myself mentally. So I've
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: done a lot of unusual things. But one thing that
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: I decided to do. I was traveling through Moab many
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: years ago, and I was in a very remote area,
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: was entirely alone. I didn't even have my dogs with
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: me on this trip. I decided that I needed to
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: spend one whole day, just one day of my life,
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: without doing anything. And this is difficult for me. You know,
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: I'm a you know, you're a busy guy. Yeah, busy guy.
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: I don't sit still. So I decided that I wanted
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: to watch the sunrise and I wanted to watch the sunset,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: and I wanted to do nothing in between other than
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: just be aware of everything that life brought to me.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to make anything happen at all. I
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: made up a little bit of food, put it in
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: a bag, got some water, got a little sitting pad,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: and I found a place up on a bluff with
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: an extraordinary view around me. It's almost three hundred and
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: six degrees off this little sand dome. You know, you
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: just find a lot of those out and yeah, but
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: I climbed up there in the dark, sat down, waited
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: for the sun to rise, and I sat there all
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: day long, except to get up to use the bathroom.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: Better than that, I didn't move. I tried not to
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: think about anything. I tried to give my surroundings my
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: one hundred percent attention. So I wanted to be aware
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: at every moment of the temperature, the position of the sun,
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: the sounds around me, the animals around me. And at
• 51:28
  Speaker 2: first I thought, you know, about thirty minutes into this,
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: I thought I am never going to make it because
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: it's just not going to work. And then a couple
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: hours in I started getting into the rhythm of it,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: you know, and by three or four o'clock, the hours
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: were just flying by. Before you know what, the sun
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: was on the horizon. I sat there the whole day
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: and that was the most you know. It really opened
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: my eyes to the fact that, you know, we can
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: travel thousands of miles to have these experiences, or we
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: can just sit still and pay attention. You know, you
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: can get to the same place in your mind, but
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: it really has to be through your attention, not necessarily
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: your location, your location or your itinerary. Sure, I gets
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: so hung up on that I want to see this,
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: I want to see that. I want to stop here,
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: I want to go there, you know, And they think
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: the more they cram in, the more they're going to experience,
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: when in fact they would experience more just sitting. I
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: would venture to say that I experienced more of Moab
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: in that one day than most people do staying there
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: in a week. Yeah, you know, because you were open
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: to it. Yeah.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I do an almost daily kind of quiet time
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: like that, where it's meditative in my own way. I mean,
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: I'm really bad at it. But if I make it
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: to fifteen minutes, well I started at five and I
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: got to ten after about six months, and now I'm
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: at about fifteen minutes. And it's amazing. If you don't
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: have any of those other inputs. I don't let myself
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: look at my phone. It's all shut off and my
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: monkey mind is going in a thousand different directions. But
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: I think that has been really good for me because
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: it makes me realize my mind is constantly going in
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: a thousand different directions. And now after I've been doing
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: it for over a year, maybe I'm only going in
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: seven hundred and fifty different directions, or some days I
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: might get to five hundred different directions. But yeah, I
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: can notice the change. I can notice that I'm more
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: productive during the day. It's helped me work through things
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: that would occupy my mind, regrets or whatever. So yeah,
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: I think it's really powerful. So for you to do
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: an entire day, that's amazing. That is really cool.
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and now it's something I want to do again.
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: I want to start doing more of those things. Yeah.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: I've kind of been you know, I go through these cycles,
• 53:31
  Speaker 2: like you say, I've been wrapped up in my business,
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: and you know how it is with a business. Yeah,
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: it really intrudes in your time. I do meditate every morning,
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: just as you do. I get up at four four thirty,
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: so I have a long day.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: But that is totally uncivilized. Man, I'm kidding. Some people
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: are early risers. I am not an early riser.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: So it's you know, it's brutal. I mean, you know,
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: when I meet people for breakfast, they say, well, when
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: do you want to meet? And I said, no, no, no, no,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: you need to pick when we meet for breakfast. I
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: will be unreasonable.
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: You're halfway through your day by the time you meet
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: me for recast, ready.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: For lunch by the time you want to meet. Yeah,
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: but I mean, I know it's unreasonable. I do get
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: up early partly so that I have the time to
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: do this, because it has helped to center me for
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: the day. Yeah, that's so good. And you know, this
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: process of being aware of the fact that your monkey
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: mind is going crazy and then redirecting that back that
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: builds neural pathways. Yeah, you know, and it seems like
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: it does. It does. Yeah, And so the more you
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: practice it, the more those pathways become ingrained. Yeah. And
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: it becomes a tool that you can use at any
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: moment to bring yourself back from that insanity.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, from the brink, right, Yeah, that's good. That leads
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: me kind of to one of the things that I
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: really wanted to ask you, because I think you'll have
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: so many insights for the listeners. Is if you were
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: to recommend or just have some suggestions or some thoughts,
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: even for someone that was coming new into travel, new
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: into overlanding, what would you share with them? What would
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: be your top three to five pieces of advice or
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: suggestions that you would give to someone new to travel.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: Just to give a little perspective, I guess you know,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: my very first experiences in this were in a nineteen
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: sixty five Oldsmobile Delta eighty eight, big giant car that
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: I bought for three hundred dollars. But I was so
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: glad to have it. You know, I was seventeen years old,
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: and I immediately started driving at places. You know, I
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: did a lot of traveling around southern Arizona, and I
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: did a lot of traveling in the back country with it,
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: which is ridiculous. I mean, it's got like six inches
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: of ground clan like a five degree departure. So I
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: drugged that thing through sand washes and everything you could imagine.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: But the point is I didn't have tools. You know,
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: I didn't have a winch. You know, it turns out
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: nobody made a winnch bumper for an old zage. You know,
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: I didn't know when I bought it. But no, I
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: didn't have any of this stuff right, And it really
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: was about it really was about overcoming my own gremlins
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: in my head. You know, the fears of traveling, the
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: fears are breaking down. And back then there were no
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: cell phones. So if you broke if you drove fifteen
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: twenty miles back into the desert, broke down, you were
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: walking fifteen or twenty miles out that year. That the
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: way it worked. That's the way it worked. Yeah. So
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: there were no weather options back then. But you know,
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: these days, there's not a lot to be afraid of. Yeah,
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: So I would say not to focus so much on
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: the physical things past the things that we talked about.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: You do want to be you want to have some
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: shelter for the weather. You want to be comfortable so
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: you can sleep, and those sorts of things you wouldn't
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: be able to fix. You want to have water, and
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: you want to be able to fix food, eat, but
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: beyond that, you don't really need a lot. Yeah, So
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: work on the aspects of your character that would allow
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: you to travel farther and more confidently. Yeah, you know,
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: things like security, confidence, competence. All of these things are
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: things that you develop within yourself. They're not things you
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: build into a vehicle.
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: And ultimately, if you try to compensate with the vehicle
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: for the things that you lack, you're going to end
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: up paying the price.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: For that eventually.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, in more ways than one. Right, Yeah, you pay
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: the price in money and time to try to accommodate
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: for that, and then mechanical things will always fail you.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: I mean I've I've had land cre users not start.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: It's very rare that that happens, but I've had land
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: cruisers let me down. You're right, I think that, And
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: maybe it's because that's what we're reinforced in and that's
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: what the messages oftentimes in the industry, and that's why
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: we try so hard in this podcast to try to
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: remind folks that it's not the stuff that's going to
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: give you the great experience, it's the doing. It's the going.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: It's the seeing that's going to make you more and
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: more confident. If you look at the early travelers, the
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: early around the world explorers, they had a fraction of
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: the stuff that we have available at our fingertips today
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: on a phone, and it's just amazing what they accomplished.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: And they just did it from their own desire to
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: see and to go and to do. So that's wonderful
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: advice reminding people that let's work on ourselves first. Let's
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: make let's get some education, let's get some training. Let's
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: go out and do it and get lost and get
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: stuck and break down and figure it out, so that
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: way we have the confidence in ourselves to explore a
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: little further next time, right, and you.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: Know, try to see the world. Do the of a
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: traveler as opposed to a tourist, you know, because there's
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: a big difference. You know, you can have all the
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: Instagram photos and all the videos, and you can have
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: the vehicle and all the all the gear, and you know,
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: you can visit all the fancy places, but if you
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: never internalize any of it, then you really haven't traveled
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: to those places at all, and you haven't taken advantage
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: of the places that they can take you in your
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: own mind. That's really the essence of it. If you will.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: You know, there is an actually that brings another thing
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: to mind. There was there's a movie called Walter Mittie.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: Great movie. It's a great movie. I love that movie.
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: But and I'm not going to spoil it for people
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: that haven't seen I think you know that. I think
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: that any of us that have a yearning to go
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: do that should watch that movie. But in the very end,
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: you know, at the very end of the movie, they
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: really show you what the most important thing is, and
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: it's it's not the extravagant experiences so much as a
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: small experience is fully experienced, if that makes sense. I'm
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: trying to word this very carefully not to give away
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: the ending. In the very end, you know that what
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: they called the quintessence of life or something. Yeah, is
• 59:03
  Speaker 2: this very very simple thing. Yeah, and the guy that
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: thought that he didn't have any of it basically had
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: it all. Yeah. It's a very interesting lesson. Yeah. You
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: can travel all over the world and see nothing. Yeah,
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: you can travel a few miles away and see it all,
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: and you're a much better travel person. No, no question,
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: just remember that.
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: And you know, it doesn't take a ton of money,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: it doesn't take a fancy vehicle, it doesn't take a
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: ton of year.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Pretty much anybody with the heart and the desire
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: to do it can do it. Yeah.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: So thank you for that encouragement, David. Thank you for
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: all of the great conversations that you and I have
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: shared around breakfast here and Prescott. And that's really what
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: inspired me to want to have you on the podcast,
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: is that I have learned so much from you. And
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: as I've shared before with the audience, I know less
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: than five percent of what I hope to know about
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: this subject, and I have learned you have definitely moved
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: the needle for me and the things that you've shared
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: and the lessons that I've learned from you and your
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: travels and the way that you prepare vehicles and equipment.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: So really grateful for our friendship, and I'm grateful for
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: you having been on the podcast today and for reminding
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: people that it isn't about checking boxes, it isn't about
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: how far you go. It's maybe about how much we
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: learn about ourselves and about how much we learn about
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: the place that we're in at that moment.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: It's a good lesson for life too, it is. And
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: I guess one last question. Where can people find out
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: more about you and about Turnoverland and some of these
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: new things that you're bringing to market.
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: What's your website? The website is turnoverland dot com and
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: we also have Instagram accounts and so forth. If you
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: want to learn more about what we're doing with the camper,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: you could also contact at Overland because they are partnering
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: with us on the building of these campers perfect man.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: That way people can see a little bit more of
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: these amazing new products you're bringing to the market.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: I like it.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: It's very good. Dave, thank you so much. I appreciate
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: you being on the podcast.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: There is pleasure