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Gambling Recovery with Daniel Bullen of Incumental · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Therapists podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
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  Speaker 1: to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: So five four, three, two and one folks, welcome back
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: to the podcast. Very excited to have us. My guest today,
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  Speaker 1: Daniel Bullen Daniel, welcome.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much guy, It's a pleasure to be here.
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  Speaker 1: Awesome. Daniel is a recovery addict and coach specializing in
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  Speaker 1: gambling addiction. After more than two decades struggling with compulsive gambling,
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  Speaker 1: he entered recovery in twenty twenty one and has since
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  Speaker 1: dedicated his work to helping others break the cycle of addiction.
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  Speaker 1: He's a creator of Addicted Recovery, a platform where he
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  Speaker 1: shares education, tools and personal insights to support people working
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  Speaker 1: toward lasting change. Daniel also serves as recovery support coach
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  Speaker 1: with Incremental, one of our great sponsors, providing practical, peer
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  Speaker 1: based guidance to individuals navigating urgent is, rebuilding consistency, and
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  Speaker 1: staying engaged in recovery. All Right, Dan, obviously, just a
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  Speaker 1: little bit about you before we get going, share with
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  Speaker 1: our listeners where you're from originally and where you are currently,
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  Speaker 1: and then we'll dive in.
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  Speaker 3: Hi everyone, great to be here, Daniel. I was originally
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: born in Liverpool, England, where I spent the first twenty
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: eight years of my life. And then whilst I was
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  Speaker 3: on holiday in Sydney, I met my now wife on
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  Speaker 3: my second to last day, took us to the opera
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  Speaker 3: on the last day in Sydney. We kept in touch.
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  Speaker 3: She comes to Europe a couple of months later. We
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  Speaker 3: did long distance for a year, and then it was
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  Speaker 3: decided that one of us needs to move. So I
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  Speaker 3: looked up at the gray skies of England and I said,
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  Speaker 3: o't come to Sydney, Australia. I've been here for just
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  Speaker 3: under ten years.
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  Speaker 1: Now.
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  Speaker 3: In a couple of months time, it'll be ten years
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  Speaker 3: that I've been in Sydney, Australia.
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  Speaker 1: Awesome, aw what a great story, all right, so dive
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  Speaker 1: let's dive in here. How the heck did all this
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  Speaker 1: start for you?
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  Speaker 3: So my memory of slot machines very younger, I was ten, eleven,
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  Speaker 3: twelve years old. I used to go to a social
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  Speaker 3: club with all my family. I've got a very big family.
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  Speaker 3: My mum is one of eight children, my dad is
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  Speaker 3: one of nine children. Gambling was just accepted in the family.
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  Speaker 3: Like my mom's dad. My grandfather was actually an illegal bookmaker,
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  Speaker 3: so he was on the right side of the fence.
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  Speaker 3: Unfortunately I ended up on the on the wrong side
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  Speaker 3: of the fence, and just I remember that naughty feeling
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  Speaker 3: of being on the slot machines, and then my grandad
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  Speaker 3: had come around the corner and me and my cousin
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  Speaker 3: would all pretend like were wearing on it and we'd
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: look the other way, and then he'd go back around
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  Speaker 3: the corner. I've to giving us a bit of a speech,
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: and I'd be playing that machine again. I just remember
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  Speaker 3: the sheer excitement of that, like that little bit of
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: being naughty as well. And then as that progressed, like
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: fourteen fifteen, it was just so accepted in my family
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  Speaker 3: that I was doing bets along with my family, and
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  Speaker 3: I remember a couple of big wins. If you're like
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: a fourteen and fifteen jeez, yeah, a fourteen starting soon?
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  Speaker 1: Where where were you doing this? Where were you having
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: access to these?
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  Speaker 3: She included with the family, like my mum and dad
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  Speaker 3: divorced when I was twelve years old, and then my
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  Speaker 3: dad used to come and take me and my nephew
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  Speaker 3: out every Saturday and we'd go to the arcades. That
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  Speaker 3: would be like part of the bonding with my dad.
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  Speaker 3: He enjoyed it as well. But I'd only get small.
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  Speaker 3: I'd get given five pounds maybe off my dad, and
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  Speaker 3: I'd make that last for an hour or two hours.
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  Speaker 2: But I was always the kid that was back there.
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  Speaker 3: Harassment my dad, like please please just one more pounds,
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  Speaker 3: one more pound or five more pounds to go again.
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  Speaker 3: But it didn't seem like a problem because the amounts
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  Speaker 3: were so small. Sure, I think it didn't. It didn't
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  Speaker 3: allay at anybody. There wasn't red flags. And I remember
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  Speaker 3: a horse race of fourteen there was a horse called
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  Speaker 3: Chief Dan George, and that's my name and a family
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  Speaker 3: member's name, so the whole family was better on it
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  Speaker 3: just because of the name. And I remember the horse
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  Speaker 3: was so far back in the race, like it the
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  Speaker 3: jockey was whipping it and it was going backwards, and
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  Speaker 3: it was like that the race is done. All of
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  Speaker 3: a sudden it had the second wind, and this horse
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  Speaker 3: is flying through the pack, and I remember the excitement
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  Speaker 3: and I was in my living room. There was me,
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  Speaker 3: my brother, and my sister, my mom, my dad was there,
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  Speaker 3: my brother in law and my nephew, and it come
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  Speaker 3: through and won, and just that euphoria of everybody being connected,
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  Speaker 3: everybody being involved with this wind. And I just remember
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  Speaker 3: the sheer joy in the room.
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  Speaker 1: Oh my god, this is just you can tell, this
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  Speaker 1: is like emotionally embedded in your system. You can just
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  Speaker 1: it's it's yeah, keep going.
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  Speaker 3: Looking back, I can clearly see that. But at the time,
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  Speaker 3: I'm completely ambibilious too. I haven't got that type of
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  Speaker 3: emotional awareness. But that was like a moment where the
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  Speaker 3: whole family was involved in it. A year later, I
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  Speaker 3: had a big win in England. It's called an accumulator.
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  Speaker 3: In America they call that my parlay. It was four
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  Speaker 3: different football games and all four of them came in
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  Speaker 3: and again it was a last minute thing, like I
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  Speaker 3: needed a goal and with two minutes to go, I.
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  Speaker 2: Got that goal and I won a large amount.
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  Speaker 3: For a fifteen year old, that was different because that
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  Speaker 3: much We're talking one hundred and forty pound off one pound,
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  Speaker 3: but at fourteen, fifteen years old, I had no income.
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  Speaker 3: That was a huge amount of money. I had never
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  Speaker 3: seen that amount of cash before. And that was more
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  Speaker 3: of an isolated moment that was like me winning. That
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  Speaker 3: wasn't the euphoria of the family. That was, wow, I
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  Speaker 3: can I can actually make money off this. I can
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  Speaker 3: make a living off this, and that illusion of control
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  Speaker 3: that I know better than everybody else. I understand football,
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  Speaker 3: sports soccer more than other people, so I know what
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: I'm doing. And I can see now looking back, how
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: those two early wins were a feeling that I was chasing.
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  Speaker 3: It wasn't necessarily about the money. While I'm in it,
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  Speaker 3: I'm convinced it's all about that money back, And see
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  Speaker 3: looking back, it was never about the money. It was
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  Speaker 3: the emotional euphoria that I got from those from those wins.
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  Speaker 3: First time it really got to control and red flag.
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  Speaker 3: I remember it's sixteen years old. I said to my
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  Speaker 3: mom just as she was going to bed, I said,
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  Speaker 3: can I use your credit card? I just want to
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  Speaker 3: put ten pounds on an account and place in poker,
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  Speaker 3: and she was like, yep, no problem.
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  Speaker 1: So just to recontextualize again, this is part of the
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  Speaker 1: culture of your family.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, yeah, okay, yeah, it's it's a hobby. It's
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  Speaker 3: seen as a hobby. Still, nobody's seeing it as a problem.
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  Speaker 3: But this time should have been a massive red flag.
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  Speaker 3: So I remember the account that I was using it
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  Speaker 3: as American dollars, so I'll say it was twenty dollars.
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  Speaker 3: I took off my mum's card, and I remember as
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  Speaker 3: I deposited, as I've used that card, that little box
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  Speaker 3: that you can tick to say remember card details. I
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: just ticked the just thinking that just in case I
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  Speaker 3: need to use it again. I've give my mom the
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  Speaker 3: card back. She's gone to sleep. I've started playing, I've
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  Speaker 3: started losing, and then I've started chasing. And the four
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  Speaker 3: process in my mind is I'll just I'll put one
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  Speaker 3: more one more lot of twenty dollars in just to
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  Speaker 3: win that money back. Oh I've lost that now, okay,
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  Speaker 3: go on, I'll just put a little bit more and
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  Speaker 3: i'd just win that money back, and then I'll put
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  Speaker 3: it all back and everything I'll be okay. By the
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  Speaker 3: time my mom woke up the next morning, I deposited
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  Speaker 3: and lost the equivalent of three two hundred dollars from
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  Speaker 3: what was supposed to be twenty dollars. I just it
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  Speaker 3: was I was just petrified. I couldn't face up it,
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  Speaker 3: I couldn't tell my mum what I'd done. So I
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  Speaker 3: just I just like brushed it under the carpet and
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  Speaker 3: hoped it would go away. And about three days later,
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  Speaker 3: my mom sat me and sat me down and said,
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  Speaker 3: there's been a problem with the internet bill trying to
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  Speaker 3: come out the there's been a problem with the credit card.
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  Speaker 3: The internet company, internet provider couldn't take their money out.
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  Speaker 3: Do you have any idea why? And I said, like,
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  Speaker 3: sit down, this and this, this is what happened. This
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  Speaker 3: is what I've done. And I was never disciplined as
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  Speaker 3: a child. My mom was very lenient, was always sort
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  Speaker 3: of don't be sad, be happy, always trying to make
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  Speaker 3: me happy, and never got disciplined for it. She's just shocked,
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  Speaker 3: the look on her face shocked, absolute shocking disappointment. And
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  Speaker 3: then she left the room, like she stormed out of
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  Speaker 3: the room, and probably we didn't speak for maybe two days,
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  Speaker 3: three days, and it was never spoken about again. So
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  Speaker 3: it was never properly addressed, Like my mum wouldn't want
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  Speaker 3: to discipline me. There was a lot of I think
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  Speaker 3: she had a lot of guilt around my mum and
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  Speaker 3: dad divorcing. I was the youngest of three children, so
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  Speaker 3: it didn't really affect my sister or my brother, but
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  Speaker 3: I was did. But I was twelve years old, so
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  Speaker 3: it affected me an awful lot more. And yeah, it
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  Speaker 3: was just never dealt with, so it was sort of
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  Speaker 3: like I got away with it. I didn't have to
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: pay the money back. I never got in trouble, so
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  Speaker 3: it never stopped. The day I turned eighteen, I remember
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  Speaker 3: applying and getting approved for five credit cards within a
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  Speaker 3: couple of weeks. All five of those were maxed out
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  Speaker 3: due to gambling. Because now I was eighteen years old,
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  Speaker 3: I actually go to the casinos.
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  Speaker 2: In England.
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  Speaker 3: You only have to be eighteen to gamble, so I
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: could go to the in person casinos. And that was
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: just the pattern that kept going for the foreseeable future.
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: I did have another one of those winds at nineteen
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  Speaker 3: that I feel laid the foundations for the next ten
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  Speaker 3: to fifteen years for what I was chasing. I won
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  Speaker 3: online on roulette on befair. I used to have this
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  Speaker 3: strategy where I'd just bet the same color as the
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  Speaker 3: previous color and if I could get up to the
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  Speaker 3: maximum amount of bet, I'd do it, so I was
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  Speaker 3: up to one thousand pounds the spin, just betting on
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  Speaker 3: black or red, and I had a run of twelve
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  Speaker 3: consecutive banks. Yeah, on a very popular online better platform.
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: I had a run of twelve consecutive blacks, so I'd
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: had a little good run before that, and one thousand
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  Speaker 3: pounds of spin. I'd gotten up to twenty thousand pounds.
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: So at the time the exchange rate was one to
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: two English pounds American dollars, so I won the equivalent
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: of forty thousand dollars at nineteen years old. To give
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: you a bit of context, my yearly salary was about
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: eleven twelve thousand pounds, so I had won almost two
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: years sal in an afternoon. Again, the secrecy, nobody got
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: told about it. I had had that account from when
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: I was younger than eighteen, so it wasn't verified, so
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: I had to jump through a few loopholes to withdraw
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: that money. So I took about eight nine ten days
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: to be withdrawn via papal and just every morning I
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: was like, refresh balance, it's not there, refresh balance, that's
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  Speaker 3: not there. This one Thursday morning, refresh balance. Wow, it's there.
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  Speaker 3: I'm like, oh my god. The holiday that I'm going
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: on the cruise, I'm going to take my girlfriend on.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna get my driving test on the car I'm
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: going to buy. Just I'm going to retire. I'm nineteen
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  Speaker 3: years old and I'm going to retire on this little kitty.
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  Speaker 3: It was ten am when I discovered that money in
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: the account. By the time I went to work that
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: day at two pm, i'd lost it all.
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  Speaker 2: I'd already given it up, but for gambling.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, straight back on ut just that initial four process
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  Speaker 3: of I'll have a little place, see if my luck's
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: still in.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, wow, wow, Wow, this is this is
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: an incredible story. So you said that you were chasing something.
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  Speaker 1: Was it? Was it the the heart the euphoria? Used
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: that word, the euphoria of winning. Was there also the
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: feeling of or any sense of just the camaraderie with
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: your family because you're all doing that. Was did that
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  Speaker 1: play anything? Was it just stract the euphoria of winning?
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  Speaker 3: As I'm doing it, I'm convinced it's solely about the money.
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  Speaker 3: So my four processes, I started with fifty pounds and
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: I won twenty pounds. If I start with twenty thousand pounds,
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: imagine what I can win as I'm in it. As
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: I'm doing it, just one hundred percent blinkered. It's the money.
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  Speaker 3: I want to win, more money. I want to be
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: able to be financially comfortable, and this is how I'm
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: going to do it. Looking back, I can see it's
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: it's chasing those early winds of fourteen fifteen, the connection
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  Speaker 3: with my dad once my mom and dad split up,
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: that connection with my dad every weekend going to gamble.
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  Speaker 2: All the family.
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Bet.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: I had this this.
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  Speaker 3: My two uncles were very wealthy from the construction businesses,
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: but I saw them gamble as well, and I had this,
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: this sort of blade that they made their money from gambling,
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: when in reality, they made their money from their businesses
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: and they enjoyed gambling as a hobby. But I saw
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: it as they gambled to become rich. I want that.
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: I want I want that financial I want that easy
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: life that they've got. Not easy, I want that comfortable
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: life that my uncles have got. So it sort of
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: I had a blade message that gambling was the way
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: to make my life more comfortable.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: And then yeah, so let's let's kind of shift gears
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: you a little bit. I'm assuming something happened a rock
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Bottom type experience.
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: Fourteen years later, fifteen years later, So I'm convinced they're
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: chasing that moment for.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: So during the whole fourteen fifteen years, you're gambling.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Just my life is just consumed by it.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, And I was periods of winning, loss and so forth, and.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but okay.
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: My gambling counselor was always shocked at the different forms
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: of gambling. Normally, somebody gets addicted to one type of gambling.
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: I was everything.
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: I was slot machines, I was horse racing, I was
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: sports better and I was poker. And when I moved
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: to Australia, when I met met my now wife Julie,
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: I wanted to get myself better before I came here.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: So for the first of the time, I started seeing
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: a gambling counselor before I left Liverpool, before I left England,
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: and that was sort of an insight into oh wow,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm actually an anxious person. I used gambling as
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: more than just chasing this win, chasing this freedom, and
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: I started linking a lot of that together. But I
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: only had about three months of counseling before I left
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: to come to Australia, and then I didn't gamble for
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: about eighteen months. I had about eighteen months abstinence once
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: I arrived here.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: Did you hang on a second? So the impetus forgetting
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: the coach was moving to Australia with your girlfriend.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: At the time, Yeah, I was, I'm moving, Okay, I'm moving.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Halfway across the world to be with a geller.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: I tell her, Yes, I was.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: I was upfront with her and told her what what
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: I was like, and I knew if I come here
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: and gambled, then the relationship would be over. And the
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: whole reason I'm moving to Australia is for here. I
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: didn't fall in love with Sydney. I fell in love
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: with her right so when I arrived here, because I'd
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: been so appront with hers, she had found the local
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: Gambler's anonymous meeting for me to attend, which rarely showed
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: me how supportive, like, wow, I've picked a really good
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: girl here. I've told her my worst character defects and
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: she supported me by trying to find my local meeting.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: So I did attend Gamblers Anonymous, but I wasn't fully
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: committed to it. Didn't gamble for about eighteen months, and
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: then in two thousand and seven I moved here in
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: twenty sixteen. In twenty seventeen, I discovered bitcoin, and I
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: wasn't investing in bitcoin. I was convinced I was, but
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: basically I was just betting whether bitcoin was going to
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: go or bitcoin was going to go down.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: And I won on this Friday night that I discovered it.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: I won about four thousand dollars and the addiction just
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: came back overnight, just my.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Behavior straight away.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: I was just by the end of twenty seventeen, I'd
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: lost a little bit of savings that I'd had. I'd
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: used a credit card that I had zero zero debits on.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: I'd maxed out that credit card. I took a loan out,
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: told the loan company that I'm getting married, got a
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: loan for twenty five thousand dollars. Just chasing straight away, chasing,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: trying to get that money back, that money that I
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: won on that first Friday night. It was like, Wow,
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: I can make money again. This is what I'm supposed
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: to be doing. Gambling was the wrong thing I was
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: supposed to be doing.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: This bitcoin. I'm supposed to be investing.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: I convinced myself I was investing, but the way I
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: was doing it was just gambling on steroids in and
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: out for and seven in eighteen, nineteen twenty all the
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: way to twenty twenty one.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: And does your the government know what's going on.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So by the end of that first one in
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, I'd come clean and I handed over control
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: of the finances to her. That was part of the deal.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: She controls the finances now and we carry on. But
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: those intermitting periods where i'd do it across the next
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: three or four years, I was always able to manipulate
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: it and say, listen, I've got inside there and four
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: bitcoin is going to the moon. It's going to pop
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: off these next few months. We'll take this loanout, we'll
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: triple quadriple our money, we'll take the loan back out,
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: we'll pay the loan off, and we'll have all this
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: money for free. I was about to say, Luckily, she'd
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: never fully check. Unfortunately, she'd never fully check and never
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: ask for proof of the bitcoin, because I'd lose it
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: within weeks, and then I'd have to come up with
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: these other ways that rock bottom moment you asked the boat,
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: I'd convinced that we'll take this loanout. We'll we'll double
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: our money, triple our money, and we'll put the loan back.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: I've lost that loan.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: Now my first daughter has been born at this point,
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: and my wife is now second pregnant with our second daughter.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: That sort of falls into a bit where I felt
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: the pressures I wanted. I've always been like, I'm the man,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: I should be the provider for the family. That pressure
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: sort of came in because I was paying off debts
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: from twenty seventeen. I was like, I need this money fast.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: I need to get this money quick so I can
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: be that provider for my girls. Yeah, and I just
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: couldn't tell her. I was like, she's five months, six
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: months pregnant with my second daughter. I can't tell her
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: I've just lost this loan. So I reach out to
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: my family back in England and I say to them,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: can somebody pay off this loan? And somebody send me
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: the money over to pay off this loan. To cover
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: this loan, Everything'll be okay. Julia'll give birth to my
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: second daughter, Hannah, and then I'll tell her what happened
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: once she gives birth, so reluctantly my family agreed to her.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: My mum takes out a loan in England, sends me
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: the money over I withdraw it. I have to do
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: this all through Julie because she's controlling the finances, so
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: I even have to get my mom to put it
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: into my crypto account for me, so then withdraw from
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: there so Julie can.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: See it coming from there. Get Julie to pay off
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: the loan.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: I screenshot that the loan's paid off, send it back
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: to my family in England. They said, everything's good now.
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: I'll be okay for the next few months and then
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: we'll cross the bridge when we come to it about
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: speaking to Julie. The very next day, I call the
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: loan company and I say, I've made a mistake. I
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: was only supposed to make a one week payment. I've
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: accidentally paid the full loan off in full. The loan
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: off in full. Can I get the loan reimburse please?
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: And they give me the loan back that day, and
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: they give me the loan back then the following day.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: I remember the email I got while I was in
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: my job and saying the loan has been approved and
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: sent back to and just I can still get like
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: a skip, a heartbeating now thinking about thinking of that
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: money coming back, coming back in because again as I'm
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: doing it, I'm convinced it's about the money. I've now
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: got that money to win the money and fix all
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: of this and fix all the problems. I can now
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: see that that feeling is because what I've got all
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: this ammunition to go and gamble again. I can, I
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: can get back in action. I realized I was addicted
• 19:04
  Speaker 3: to the thrill of the best, the thrill of the ride,
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: the anticipation of it. Needless to say that that loan
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: didn't last long and I had to. I had to
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: come clean to everybody within the next within the next
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: two or three weeks, and that was a really emotional moment.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: I remember my Gambler's anonymous meeting. I was there and
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: I said, I did a deal with them. It was
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: about it starts at eight pm, it finishes at ten pm.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: I said, if my wife's still awake when I get home,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: I'm going to tell her. So the whole drive home,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: I'm just like, please please don't be awake, Please be asleep,
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: because then I can. I can live this life for
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: another twenty four hours. I don't have to tell constant negotiation.
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: It's it's the loneliest place ever. I'm the only one
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: that knows what's going on. And the whole drive home,
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: I'm just like, please, please, don't be awake. As I'm
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: driving down the street, I turn right up the driveway,
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: all the lighter off, and I'm like, yes, she's she's asleep.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: I can.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: I can survive another day. I don't have to tell her.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: The house that I lived in at the time. As
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: I open the front door, it's a long hallway straight
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: to the back and the kitchens at the very back,
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: and the lights on in the kitchen at the end
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: of the hallway, and I'm like, oh, my heart sinks.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: So I take that very.
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: Slow walk down the hallway, walk into the kitchen, and
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: my wife's there, seven eight months pregnant with my second daughter,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: and she studied the sink and I'm just like, just
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: do it. So I sit down at the table in
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: front of me, and my wife's over to the left
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: in front of the sink, and I just say, I
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: need to tell you something. And within the next sixty
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: seconds and ninety seconds. I spill her all out and
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: tell her everything, and she's facing the sink. She's turn
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: dra and still see her now because she's eight months pregnant.
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: She turn so she's now got her back to the sink,
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: her back to the cupboards. She just slides down to
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: the floor, sits on the floor and just lets out
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: this sound like I don't even know how to describe it,
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: like a It's like a scream and sigh at the
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: same time. So obviously, me being that provided that that
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: supportive husband I've always dreamt that I wanted to be.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: I just pushed my chair back and stand up and
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: go to get over to her, and she just screams
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: at me, leave me alone, don't come near me, don't
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: touch me.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: And that moment is a moment that I now use in.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: My room to keep myself on the path that I'm on,
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: because I know if I ever go back there, that's
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: I'm going to go straight through that rock bottom.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: I'm going to create a new rock bottom. And yeah,
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: I have that image in my head constantly. I use that.
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: I say my recovery is a balance of fear and inspiration,
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: and I use that moment my bag was packed for me.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: The next day, she sent me off to my uncle
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: who lived in North Sydney for seven days, and then
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: I was booked into a rehab center after that and
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: impatient rehab center. Went there for three weeks, and I
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: just learned so much. Like the first first thing the
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: therapist told me was you'll never be able to love.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: I was going on about how I want to be
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: that dad. I want to be that husband, that supportive husband,
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: that amazing father, and they just said, you'll never be
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: able to love anybody else. You learn to love yourself,
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: and I'm like, what is this hippy ship? I don't
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: need to love myself. By the time I left three
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: weeks later, I was I was just sold on this whole.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: I need to stop having some self care. I need
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: to stop valuing myself. I need to build up my
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: own self esteem. Once I get myself right, I can
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: be that amazing father. I can be that suppose of
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: husband that I want to be. But it all starts
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: at me. I don't want to live that chaotic lifestyle anymore.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Daan intense, my God, I mean, just your story. Obviously,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: there's so much more to it, but you can just
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: feel the depth of pain and just emotional highs and
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: lows and man, okay, so how did you get involved
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: with uh incumental? We had Michael on here a couple
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: of months ago. How did you what's your connection with them?
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: I'd always noticed in my gamblers anonymous means I was
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: always the person staying behind, trying to give advice and
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: support to the new people or somebody who was struggling,
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: and I just loved that. I loved being able to
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: help people because I'd always said, I've got advice for
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: every situation. I'm sorry if I'm not supposed to swear,
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: but I said, it's because.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: I'm the biggest fuck up in the room.
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: I've done every single form of gambling, and I've done
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: every lie, manipulative, cheat, steel.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: I was able to help.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: Everybody, and gambling was the only thing I was ever
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: passionate about. Once I got into recovery, that was the
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: thing that I was so passionate about. I loved how
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: I'd been able to turn my life around. So twenty
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: twenty one was my last bet so a little over
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: four and a half years ago, and my gambling council
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: at the time had always said to me, you should
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: write a book. Your story is incredible. He'd be sitting
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: there with popcorn every week when I'd come in for
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: the sessions. If he's sitting there with popcorn and he's like,
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: what stories have you got for me this week? But
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: just that jump from never writing anything in my life
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: to writing a book was too big, and a podcast
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: was a nice and nice in between. I was saying,
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: you know what, i'n I'm gonna It wasn't even meant
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: to be a podcast. It was just meant to be
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: talking head videos of me giving my advice. The advice
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: that I give in the Gamblers Anonymous meetings, I always
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: get great feedback from people, always tell me it really
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: helps them. I wanted to just do that on a
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: bigger scale, so I started doing that with Addictive Recovery.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: In November twenty twenty four, me and Michael got talking
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: on LinkedIn.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: He mentioned incre Mental, the app that that that.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: I now work as a recovery coach for, and it
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: was again just another match made in heaven. I loved
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: the thing with doing the YouTube, moving away from the
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: Gamblers Anonymous into the YouTube was it was a little
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: less personal the YouTube. I was helping on a bigger scale,
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: I couldn't see the people who were watching type thing.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: Then moving into that recovery coach work while simultaneously doing
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: the podcast was me connecting to people again because I
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: get to speak to people one on one, I get
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: to help people directly as well as putting my message
• 25:02
  Speaker 3: of experience, strength and hope out there. So it's a
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: lovely balance where I'm able to be personal with people,
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: but I can still try and help a lot of
• 25:11
  Speaker 3: people by making the podcast and making those talking head videos.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: So I remember when I was talking with Michael, he
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: said that one of the things that distinguished it was
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong here. But Incumental has an
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: app and it allows people to kind of engage at
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: all times of the day. Right, talk a little bit
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: about that. So how.
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: Easy it is to gamble now everybody has a casino
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: in their pockets. Everybody has an illegal bookmaker a legal
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: book maker in their pockets. So gambling is just accessible
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Now
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: with incremental recovery is accessible twenty four hours a day,
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: seven days a week, whether it's using the chat feature
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: that you can speak to appears like a Gambler's anonymous meeting,
• 26:01
  Speaker 3: you can speak to other people who understand what you're
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: going through, who get it, or you can speak directly
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: to the recovery coaches who can provide help and support
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: to get through those situations. I always say the opposite
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: to addiction is connection, and that's what Incumental gives you.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: It's connection in your pocket twenty four to seven, instead
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: of the casino, instead of the gambler in your pocket
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: twenty four to seven.
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: When you give us an idea of how you work
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: as a coach, someone comes to you or you start
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: working with someone, what is your thought process? What are
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: you trying to learn? What are you trying to hear?
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: So basically similar to a podcast, I'll ask them a
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: little bit of their story.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Where did their gambling start, how do they progress? What it?
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: Where is it at today?
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: And then I can I can engage how far along
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: they are, where they're up to And I'll try and
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: use my own story as first as Like I say,
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: my own recovery is a balance of fear and inspiration.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: I try and get that into them.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: Where listen, if you haven't gone as far as me,
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: I went this far, and I consider myself a nice person,
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: and look what I did to my mother, Look what
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: I did to my pregnant wife whilst I was in
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: that addiction. But now that peace of mind of no secrets,
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: everything's out on the table. I'm not worried about my
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: wife seeing a text message or picking up a letter
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: before I get there. That peace of mind is just priceless.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: And if you can start putting the work, and if
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: you can start doing this recovery work while simultaneously putting
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: some blocks in place in the early stages, you can
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: get that piece of mind as well.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: So I try and balance the.
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: Short term making it harder, putting a bit of friction
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: between them and that first bet, using like blocking software
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: or the Gambler's anonymous meetings. The short term fixes, but
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: then the long term work as well, the stuff that
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: I learns in therapy, the stuff that I learns and rehab,
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: I try and recommend that as well. Where it's it's
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: again a balance of staying away from that bet, putting
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: blockers in place early to help you mate, to help
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: make it harder to have access to it, but then
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: also on the side doing that work that in there's
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: no time frame, but in a year, two years, three years,
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: you can you can see that gambling advert and you're
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: not tempted to go. You're not on the edge of
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: your seat about to go and do it because of
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: the work that you've done underneath.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: So who's coming to incumental? Who's seeking out a recovery coach?
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Is it necessary for someone to hit rock bottom? You know,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: we hear that nothing's going to change until you hit
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: rock bottom. I think obviously it's different for everybody, but
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: what's your experience.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: So I'd say when I finally saw that counselor in England,
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: that was a rock bottom moment. Two years later in
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, when I had all that debt, that was
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: a new rock bottom, so you can rock Eighteen months
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: later when I manipulated and lad to my wife to
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: do bitcoin again, that was another rock bottom. And then
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: that very last one was another rock bottom where I
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: can still see my wife over there on the left
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: in the kitchen, I can still see a sliding down
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: the cupboards, and I know if I go back out there,
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: I will create another rock bottom. Like the last three
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: real free relapses. The Thaird from last affected me and
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: my wife. It wasn't just me anymore. I affected my wife.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: The second from last relapse was me and my first daughter.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: My last one in twenty twenty one was me, my
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: wife and my two children. And that fear, that guilt,
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: that remorse afterwards got waste every time, to the point
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: that I didn't want to be here anymore in twenty
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: twenty one. If I do that again, if I go
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: back out there again and do that, I know, I
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: don't know if I'll be able to come back from that.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: I know my wife doesn't have another relapse in here,
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: So I try and get that point across that there's
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: a rock bottom moments, but there's another one waiting for you.
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: If you keep going, you'll just keep creating that new
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: rock So I do like some people don't like the
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: same rock bottom.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: I do like it.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Bo.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: It's not a final and it's not an end game.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: It's not the final Boss. There'll be another rock bottom.
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: If you keep going, you will get with.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: Why why do some people not like that term?
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: Because of what you said there where just keep going
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: until you get to rock bottom. So people are think
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: I haven't hit rock bottom yet, so I'm not that bad,
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: So it will stop them from seeking out help.
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: It'll stop them coming to see a recovery coach.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: You'll stop them go into a gambler's anonymous mean because
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: I'm not that bad. They'll compare their story to my
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: story and be like, his rock bottom is pretty bad.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: I haven't hit that rock bottom, so I'm not. I
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: don't need to stop, so help me out here.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: I'm not obviously a diction recovery coach, but when you're
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: talking with someone, you know, my assumption is the blocking
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: software is one level of this. But obviously there's a
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: fundamental or foundational or emotional thing process going on here
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: that's drive all of this.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: You said thing as in one thing. That's what I
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: was convinced when I went to rehab. I was like,
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: I'm going to find I'm going to uncover that one
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: reason that I gambled. I had two objectives with rehab.
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: I'm going to find that one reason that I gamble,
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: and I'm going to take that pill that will make
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: me better. Unfortunately, it wasn't that straightforward. There was maybe
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: one thing that started me gambling, the escape from my
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: parents divorced, perhaps, but then there was a reason I
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: carried on going those wins are fourteen fifteen. There was
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: a reason it escalated that big win at nineteen. There
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: was a reason that I wasn't able to deal with
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: uncomfortable situations or negative emotions because my mum had always said,
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: don't worry, be happy, it's okay, don't be sad. So
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: there was a thousand reasons that my gambling started when
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: it did at nine, ten, eleven, twelve, and finished at
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: age thirty four. So I don't believe there's one blanket
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: rule for everybody. But I had to attack my addiction
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: from all angles. I had to see a gambling counselor,
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: I had to go to Gambles Anonymous to be around
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: my peers and connect to that community. And I had
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: to see a psychotherapist to uncover stuff from childhood. So
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: I'm a big advocate for trying to hit it from
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: all angles. So yeah, somebody who just puts that block
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: on software in place and never does the work, they
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: are always susceptible to finding themselves in that situation that
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: an edge comes and the block on software has failed
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: that day, They've got no defense against them. If you
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: do that deeper work, that's how you build up that
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: strength and that defense.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Wow, wow, wow, amazing, damn intense. You're such a Seriously,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: you're an amazing storyteller and so insightful. All right, how
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: do people learn more about you? How do people contact
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: you to Incremental? What's the best way?
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: Guy?
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: You helped me be insightful, Amazing questions that you've asked me.
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: You helped me. You help me.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Look at I don't think you just did it?
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Go ahead, YouTube at Addictive Recovery all one word that
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: say to that on YouTube. That's my channel where I
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: now do podcasts as well as the talking head videos.
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: I share all my experience, strength and hope. I love
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: to hear from people who are watching, who are enjoying
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: the content, So please leave a comment. If you do,
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: go on there and then incremental dot com. All the
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: information is on there to download the app. Once you
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: get within the app, you'll see the features inside where
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: you can chat and talk to myself and and talk
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: to the other people in there who are struggling with
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: the same things that you are.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Awesome, Awesome. We'll have all that linked up here at
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: the show notes page at the Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Dan,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: thank you for not just for being here, but for
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: being willing to share your story. I mean, it's it's inspiring.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate you.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: I've learned stuff from you today that I can bring
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: into my podcast as well.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: All right, take care, Cheers