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Killer Thriller Docu: What If the World's Most Infamous Killer was Your Grandfather? · Legally Brunette

0:06
Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.
0:07
Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hi,
0:14
Speaker 2: you guys, welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. So
0:19
Speaker 2: there are very few names in history that evoke the
0:22
Speaker 2: kind of fascination and actually horror as Charles Manson and
0:27
Speaker 2: for decades, books, documentaries, and films who tried to explain
0:31
Speaker 2: the man behind one of America's most infamous crimes. I mean,
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Speaker 2: this is a man that committed crimes when I started
0:38
Speaker 2: committing the big ones when I was one, and I
0:41
Speaker 2: had nightmares about Charles Manson and the movie Helter Skelter
0:46
Speaker 2: continuously throughout my childhood. But what happens when the story
0:51
Speaker 2: isn't just history, right? What happens when it's actually in
0:55
Speaker 2: your family. So filmmaker Sophia Maddox spent years uncovering a
0:59
Speaker 2: truth that would forever change how she saw herself, that
1:03
Speaker 2: Charles Manson was her grandfather, And in her deeply personal
1:08
Speaker 2: documentary My Grandfather Charles Manson, she takes viewers on an
1:11
Speaker 2: emotional journey through identity, family secrets, generational trauma, and the
1:17
Speaker 2: complicated search for answers. So, when I first found out
1:22
Speaker 2: that I was going to interview Sophia. I was a
1:25
Speaker 2: little nervous. I'm still a little nervous, so forgive me
1:27
Speaker 2: you guys. I'm excited though, to talk to her. It's
1:29
Speaker 2: just so intense. So today we are going to talk
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Speaker 2: to Sophia about discovering the truth, confronting her family's past,
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Speaker 2: and why telling this story became about so much more
1:39
Speaker 2: than Charles Manson himself. Please welcome Sophia Maddox. Hi, Sophia, Hello,
1:43
Speaker 2: how's it going.
1:45
Speaker 1: Hi?
1:45
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us.
1:47
Speaker 1: Of course, time you been here.
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Speaker 2: Thank you. I have to tell you when I got
1:52
Speaker 2: word that we were going to be interviewing Charles Manson's granddaughter,
1:57
Speaker 2: I was, and I hadn't seen the documentary, and I
2:00
Speaker 2: didn't know that a documentary was even coming out. My
2:03
Speaker 2: head exploded a little bit, right, Like I grew up
2:09
Speaker 2: like the scariest movie of my childhood was Helter Skelter,
2:13
Speaker 2: and I was born in nineteen sixty eight, and so
2:18
Speaker 2: you know, I grew up knowing all about Charles Manson
2:21
Speaker 2: and the stories and how terrifying. And I mean, I
2:24
Speaker 2: don't know if when you found out that Charles Manson
2:27
Speaker 2: was your grandfather, you knew who that was, you're obviously
2:30
Speaker 2: way way way younger than me, or if you had to,
2:33
Speaker 2: if your dad shared with you, like his history, did
2:36
Speaker 2: you have any idea about who he was when you
2:38
Speaker 2: guys found out?
2:39
Speaker 1: I did. I did because I really loved the Beatles.
2:43
Speaker 1: I was fifteen years old and I was listening to
2:45
Speaker 1: the White Album and the Beatles discography, and I just
2:49
Speaker 1: happened to be on the White Album and listening to
2:52
Speaker 1: Helter Skelter. You know, I googled the meaning of it
2:55
Speaker 1: because I was like, the song makes no sense, like
2:58
Speaker 1: it's kind of incoherent, and the Wikipedia page for Charles
3:02
Speaker 1: Manson came up when I googled Halter Skelter meaning, just
3:05
Speaker 1: to see if the Beatles had, you know, any meaning
3:08
Speaker 1: in the song, which they don't. I remember reading it
3:11
Speaker 1: and being like, how does this guy get that meaning
3:15
Speaker 1: from this song? That makes no sense? And I exited
3:18
Speaker 1: out of the browser. I'm not into true crime, so
3:21
Speaker 1: it didn't like fascinate me by any means. And then
3:25
Speaker 1: in twenty seventeen, I think Once upon a Time in
3:27
Speaker 1: Hollywood came out and I'm I was an aspiring actress.
3:32
Speaker 1: I hadn't quite turned into a filmmaker when I was
3:35
Speaker 1: seventeen yet, but I was a fan of all of
3:37
Speaker 1: those I am a fan of all of those people
3:39
Speaker 1: and those artists involved, Leo Margot, Robbie Tarantino, pit like
3:46
Speaker 1: this is the big it's the biggest movie. I remember
3:49
Speaker 1: at a theater, like waiting in line to get a ticket.
3:52
Speaker 1: The poster was up there, and I was like, Man,
3:54
Speaker 1: does it get bigger than Brad Pitt and Leo on
3:57
Speaker 1: that poster? That is Hollywood.
4:00
Speaker 2: Hell, they didn't really, if I'm remembering correctly, They didn't
4:04
Speaker 2: really delve too deeply into the murders. I mean, it
4:07
Speaker 2: was there, but it wasn't about that at all. It
4:09
Speaker 2: was just part right.
4:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tarantino like changes history, you know in all of
4:14
Speaker 1: his movies with and glorious bastards like Hitler didn't die
4:19
Speaker 1: that way.
4:19
Speaker 2: And no, I know, right right, right right, But I'm
4:21
Speaker 2: they reversed it. Yeah, yeah, like he did it, but
4:25
Speaker 2: not too much about it was even described or touched upon,
4:27
Speaker 2: if I remember correctly, that wasn't really right. So but
4:30
Speaker 2: you actually I'm trying to figure out if it resonated
4:32
Speaker 2: with you for some reason.
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Speaker 1: No, it didn't resonate at all. No, I was just
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Speaker 1: I'm a normal person consuming the movie, and there was
4:40
Speaker 1: you know. I googled the context of Once upon a
4:43
Speaker 1: Time in Hollywood to refresh myself, so that was like
4:46
Speaker 1: the second time I read about Charles Manson. But what
4:49
Speaker 1: sticks out with What stuck out to me was like
4:52
Speaker 1: how awful those murders were, and how insane that sounds,
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Speaker 1: Like how do you get that meaning from this song
5:00
Speaker 1: to start a race for? And what would compel anyone
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Speaker 1: to order murders to occur in order to start one?
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Speaker 1: It really, quite frankly, made no sense to me, so
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Speaker 1: I didn't give it much thought. But when my dad said, honey,
5:12
Speaker 1: I found out who my father is, and I think
5:14
Speaker 1: it's really dark. The darkest thing I could think of
5:17
Speaker 1: was actually Ted Bundy, and I knew if my dad
5:20
Speaker 1: said it was dark, it had to be famously dark,
5:23
Speaker 1: because my dad does not talk about dark things at all.
5:27
Speaker 1: He didn't raise me to watch dark movies, violent films,
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Speaker 1: true crime. He always called himself a pacifist and he
5:35
Speaker 1: doesn't like to consume dark things. So if he said
5:38
Speaker 1: it was dark, I knew it had to be famous.
5:41
Speaker 1: And the worst thing I could think of was Ted Bundy,
5:44
Speaker 1: and I just said it, almost facetiously but also serious,
5:48
Speaker 1: just to be like, let's rule out Ted Bundy, and
5:51
Speaker 1: he just said bigger. And then I thought about once
5:54
Speaker 1: upon a time, and then I realized that guy, what's
5:57
Speaker 1: his name, what's his name? What's name? Oh, Charles Manson,
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Speaker 1: And so I googled him because I didn't actually know
6:03
Speaker 1: what he looked like. I realized, you know, I'd read
6:07
Speaker 1: about him on Wikipedia, but I never looked at an
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Speaker 1: image of him. And when I looked at the image
6:13
Speaker 1: plus that DNA test, I was like, yeah, that's your dad.
6:16
Speaker 2: That must have been so hard, because I will tell
6:19
Speaker 2: you that there is, obviously there is a resemblance. I mean,
6:22
Speaker 2: I do not see it in you, not at all,
6:25
Speaker 2: but I certainly see it between your dad and Charles Manson.
6:29
Speaker 2: And I can only imagine how hard that must have
6:33
Speaker 2: been for him. You know, I know that you guys
6:35
Speaker 2: have been through it. I don't know where you're at
6:38
Speaker 2: right now, but that is so completely understandable. But first
6:43
Speaker 2: to have to take that in and then to have
6:45
Speaker 2: to tell your daughter, I just it's inconceivable to me.
6:51
Speaker 2: But you know what he did it, and I'm glad
6:53
Speaker 2: he did it in my opinion, which means not a
6:56
Speaker 2: lot in this case, but it was the right thing
6:58
Speaker 2: to do. You deserve to know, and I don't know
7:01
Speaker 2: how you managed to take that in as a young
7:04
Speaker 2: I consider you a young person. So wow, So all
7:09
Speaker 2: of it was a lot. So, but I want to
7:10
Speaker 2: I want to ask you some questions because there were
7:13
Speaker 2: things that I was wondering about in that document in
7:17
Speaker 2: the documentary, and I just don't I don't think I
7:19
Speaker 2: missed these things. But I'm going to ask you just
7:21
Speaker 2: because so watching you and your dad and that relationship,
7:24
Speaker 2: there was so much footage of how loving it was,
7:27
Speaker 2: just the sweetest footage of him, you know, you in
7:31
Speaker 2: bed and him kissing you and holding hands and all
7:33
Speaker 2: of that. And we don't have to discuss this if
7:35
Speaker 2: you don't want to. But I was wondering about your mom.
7:37
Speaker 1: My mom and dad divorced when I was five, so
7:39
Speaker 1: it was like joint custody. I saw them fifty to fifty.
7:43
Speaker 1: My mom was always present in my life. She was
7:47
Speaker 1: kind of like the breadwinner of the family, and she
7:49
Speaker 1: was really consistent and uh took me to ballet class
7:55
Speaker 1: every weekend, and she lived in one apartment my whole childhood,
8:03
Speaker 1: whereas my dad it was a little bit turbulent, but
8:08
Speaker 1: emost like financial struggles aside. It never you know, I
8:13
Speaker 1: never complained once because my dad was so loving and
8:18
Speaker 1: held my hand, kissed me on the forehead or cheek,
8:21
Speaker 1: and you know, we watched movies and listened to music.
8:24
Speaker 1: We spent quality time together. And my I think my mom,
8:28
Speaker 1: that's just not her parenting style. So the love I
8:32
Speaker 1: had as a child I really felt from my dad.
8:35
Speaker 1: And I know my mom loved me and everything, and
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Speaker 1: she showed it in different ways by investing in ballet
8:40
Speaker 1: classes and taking me to auditions. But there was not
8:44
Speaker 1: a lot of verbal communication or if we're talking about
8:48
Speaker 1: love languages right, like quality time, wheres of reformation, physical touch,
8:53
Speaker 1: it wasn't really there. If I could, you know, guess
8:57
Speaker 1: what my mom's love language is now would be it'd
8:59
Speaker 1: probably be of service. But my dad and I had
9:02
Speaker 1: the same love languages, and I think we spoke the
9:05
Speaker 1: same language there. So yeah, my dad was my rock.
9:10
Speaker 2: Did she ask you not to leave her out of
9:12
Speaker 2: the documentary, because I don't think, if I'm correct, you didn't.
9:15
Speaker 2: I don't think you spoke of her at all.
9:17
Speaker 1: No, I did not. It was like I made a
9:21
Speaker 1: choice for myself, like I don't want to share my
9:24
Speaker 1: mom's side of the family with the world. I'm not
9:28
Speaker 1: doing this doc to tell all about my life. I
9:33
Speaker 1: did the doc to shed light on subject matter that
9:37
Speaker 1: went overlooked in the case of Charles Manson. And then
9:43
Speaker 1: I realized how personal it was and how much we
9:46
Speaker 1: inherited generationally without even knowing we inherited the trauma. You know,
9:51
Speaker 1: we had this dark cloud over our heads, especially my
9:55
Speaker 1: dad of course, because he always wanted to know who
9:58
Speaker 1: his father was. And even in the doc he has
10:01
Speaker 1: I interviewed him and he recounted the time in twenty
10:04
Speaker 1: seventeen before he found out who his father is. He
10:08
Speaker 1: shut down. He stopped being a dad, he stopped working,
10:11
Speaker 1: he got evicted, he lost his car. So I think
10:14
Speaker 1: that's like something that people may not really fully fathom
10:20
Speaker 1: and understand that it was haunting us, it was haunting him.
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Speaker 1: So this is purely about my dad's side of the
10:27
Speaker 1: family and not my mom. So I wanted to leave
10:30
Speaker 1: it out. I had some people on my team who
10:33
Speaker 1: wanted to put stuff with my mom in and I
10:36
Speaker 1: just adamantly rejected it and put my foot down and
10:40
Speaker 1: held my boundaries up.
10:41
Speaker 2: I'm glad that. I mean, I'm glad that I could
10:43
Speaker 2: ask you about it, though, because I just I was
10:45
Speaker 2: of course wondering, you know, was your mom there for
10:48
Speaker 2: you when all of this was going down, and and
10:51
Speaker 2: then also if your father was a single parent, what
10:54
Speaker 2: did that look like? So I mean, and I totally
10:57
Speaker 2: appreciate why you would have wanted to wanted to leave
11:00
Speaker 2: out of it. Maybe she wants to be left out
11:01
Speaker 2: of it as well, So I respect that. I'm just
11:03
Speaker 2: but I'm appreciative that you, you know, let me in a
11:06
Speaker 2: little bit on where she isn't all this but so
11:09
Speaker 2: you said, you started out wanting to give context to
11:13
Speaker 2: what the world knew about Charles Manson, and it instead
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Speaker 2: Please forgive me if I'm not stating this and the
11:21
Speaker 2: way that you want me to, But it came about
11:22
Speaker 2: you and your dad. Do you feel like that's true?
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Speaker 1: Yeah? Definitely. The story shifted and revealed itself as I
11:31
Speaker 1: was making the documentary, and I definitely feel like in
11:36
Speaker 1: order to shed light on the subject matter I wanted
11:39
Speaker 1: to shed light on, you had to look at how
11:41
Speaker 1: that trickled down to me and how it affected me
11:46
Speaker 1: and my dad, and that's where generational trauma kicks in.
11:50
Speaker 1: So it was like, when I started this process, I
11:52
Speaker 1: knew that there was generational trauma, but I but I
11:56
Speaker 1: didn't know like the vocabulary words to say it, not
11:58
Speaker 1: until like Hulu got me a therapist and she started
12:01
Speaker 1: talking about coping mechanisms that have been passed down from
12:05
Speaker 1: parent to child. So as I kept investigating and doing
12:10
Speaker 1: the work, that story revealed itself to me in the process.
12:30
Speaker 2: Do you think that the trauma for your dad, obviously
12:33
Speaker 2: not knowing who his dad was was completely traumatic and
12:38
Speaker 2: that trauma I think you're saying, was passed down to you.
12:42
Speaker 2: But for most of his life he didn't know who
12:44
Speaker 2: his father was, so there was a whole new level
12:48
Speaker 2: of trauma when he found out. But do you think
12:50
Speaker 2: that Charles Manson being your grandfather somewhere in there? It's
12:54
Speaker 2: because generational trauma is like I'm just going to give
12:57
Speaker 2: a for instance, like they say, because I'm a Jewish women,
13:00
Speaker 2: we have general rational trauma from the Holocaust. Your genes
13:04
Speaker 2: literally change right as a people when you go through trauma.
13:08
Speaker 2: So I don't think your dad ever knew Charles Manson,
13:12
Speaker 2: But do you feel like somehow it was in there,
13:15
Speaker 2: like some kind of like Charles Manson being his father
13:18
Speaker 2: affected him as he was even though he didn't know it,
13:21
Speaker 2: and it affected you. Is that kind of what you're saying?
13:24
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean on so many levels. We can talk
13:26
Speaker 1: about all the different examples something I actually haven't shared yet,
13:31
Speaker 1: not even I mean, I think maybe it was like
13:34
Speaker 1: trying to be in the doc but we only have
13:35
Speaker 1: an hour and forty five minutes. But you know, my
13:38
Speaker 1: dad made short films about a man who was about
13:42
Speaker 1: to be executed for a murder that he didn't commit.
13:47
Speaker 1: He had dreams about being wanted murder. My dad had
13:51
Speaker 1: dreams about being wanted from murder. No idea why? Like why?
13:56
Speaker 1: And and maybe those are coincidences because you know I
13:59
Speaker 1: had you know, I think everyone might have a fear of,
14:02
Speaker 1: like what if I went to prison for something that,
14:05
Speaker 1: you know, whatever, it's, it's a fear. If everyone's fear
14:09
Speaker 1: is to you know, be in prison at least, And
14:13
Speaker 1: I think and but you know, my dad was born
14:18
Speaker 1: to a teenage mom, and so was Charles. They both
14:21
Speaker 1: took on last names that had that had nothing to
14:25
Speaker 1: do with their family, but boyfriends that came and went.
14:28
Speaker 2: Was he close by the way with your mom's boyfriend
14:32
Speaker 2: when he took his name? So I was wondering that
14:35
Speaker 2: the relation.
14:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, no. So we were the only family
14:39
Speaker 1: we had. My dad was like homeless by the time
14:42
Speaker 1: he was fifteen, and he made his way to Hollywood
14:47
Speaker 1: as an actor and a model. Charles was also a
14:50
Speaker 1: homeless kid, picked up, went to Jubi Holmes Prisons, and
14:55
Speaker 1: he when he was released in his early thirties, he
14:57
Speaker 1: went to Hollywood as a musician. So why are these
15:00
Speaker 1: parallels happening? Is it? And then like these patterns of
15:03
Speaker 1: trauma where we're very lonely or we might be failures
15:08
Speaker 1: like there was. So there was just this huge identity
15:10
Speaker 1: crisis like why did like my dad thinking like why
15:14
Speaker 1: did my my mother beat me up when I was
15:17
Speaker 1: ten years old for no reason?
15:18
Speaker 2: That was so hard to watch.
15:20
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, okay, that's why it's she found out
15:24
Speaker 1: my father's Charles Manson and all of that fear, all
15:28
Speaker 1: of that shame that you know, was so present. So
15:32
Speaker 1: it showed up in so many different ways, and it
15:35
Speaker 1: might be in DNA, like you said it might be spiritual.
15:38
Speaker 1: It might be like, you know, my dad's survival mechanisms,
15:43
Speaker 1: growing up without parents or abusive parents and then being
15:47
Speaker 1: sleeping on park benches at fifteen. Yeah, he doesn't trust.
15:51
Speaker 2: A lot of people.
15:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I'm the longest relationship he ever had.
15:56
Speaker 1: And even that stopped when I was seventeen, then came
16:00
Speaker 1: back around, and then stopped again when another traumatic thing happened.
16:03
Speaker 1: So like, looking at those patterns was so important for
16:09
Speaker 1: me to be open and honest with because I don't
16:13
Speaker 1: think I've ever seen a doc or a movie that
16:16
Speaker 1: really pinpoints what generational trauma looks like. And even though
16:20
Speaker 1: we might be such a large, infamous example of it,
16:24
Speaker 1: I think it happens more often than we think. And
16:28
Speaker 1: I hope someone else feels a little less lonely in
16:30
Speaker 1: their in their journey if they're going through anything like it.
16:33
Speaker 2: I when you say generational trauma, I think about because
16:38
Speaker 2: some may say, well, you know your father didn't know
16:40
Speaker 2: his father. How does that? How did those genes? How
16:43
Speaker 2: does it pass on? If let's say Charles Manson was
16:47
Speaker 2: born without having this hideous life of you know, of
16:53
Speaker 2: violence and trauma. But Charles Manson was incarcerated almost his
16:59
Speaker 2: whole life, like from a very young age. I think
17:01
Speaker 2: that's for me. That's like, okay, so Janes are changing.
17:06
Speaker 2: Then he meets this woman and they have your father.
17:10
Speaker 2: So that is because I think sometimes people don't Maybe
17:14
Speaker 2: I didn't always understand what that means, right, but like
17:16
Speaker 2: as you can even change as a people, but something
17:20
Speaker 2: in you changes, and it's passed down. The trauma response
17:24
Speaker 2: when it's triggered, even not knowing your father, his father
17:28
Speaker 2: was passed down.
17:29
Speaker 1: Right, exactly, That's exactly it. And I don't know if
17:33
Speaker 1: everyone will understand that or get that. I think it
17:35
Speaker 1: takes a kind of a person who's looked at science
17:38
Speaker 1: and epigenetics or you know, I don't even have like
17:42
Speaker 1: the scientific terms for it, but my dad would say
17:46
Speaker 1: things like that, like it's in our blood, it's in
17:48
Speaker 1: our DNA. But also like generational trauma with Manson aside,
17:53
Speaker 1: like my grandmother and that trauma she realized the person
17:57
Speaker 1: she hooked up with turned out to be, you know,
18:02
Speaker 1: second to Hitler respond of Satan cult leader, serial killer,
18:07
Speaker 1: and how that what trauma response she had to my
18:10
Speaker 1: dad And that led to me. So it's like all,
18:14
Speaker 1: you know, it's not just Manson to my dad. To me,
18:17
Speaker 1: it's like everyone involved in the family has gone through
18:21
Speaker 1: some sort of trauma. And yeah, the my dad would
18:27
Speaker 1: say were dysfunctional people raised by dysfunctional people.
18:31
Speaker 2: Welcome. I mean not, they're different. Obviously they're different levels, right,
18:36
Speaker 2: But I think that's that description, is that you're casting
18:40
Speaker 2: a wide net there. But I'm curious in terms of
18:44
Speaker 2: like when you found out and I don't maybe you know,
18:48
Speaker 2: people view things differently, and I what I saw was
18:52
Speaker 2: your dad being so traumaize, traumatized by the information itself. Okay,
18:58
Speaker 2: so put aside like the generational trauma that he really
19:01
Speaker 2: didn't want to deal with this. And I thought to myself,
19:05
Speaker 2: if I was in that position, would I want the
19:07
Speaker 2: world to know that I was Charles Manson's son? And
19:10
Speaker 2: what does that look like, right for the rest of
19:12
Speaker 2: his life? What if that's something that he wanted to
19:14
Speaker 2: keep private because it could affect him getting a job,
19:18
Speaker 2: it could affect his relationships, it could affect So I'm wondering,
19:22
Speaker 2: you know, I saw that from him. I don't know
19:25
Speaker 2: if you felt that kind of a shame about it.
19:28
Speaker 2: I felt it more and correct me if I'm wrong
19:31
Speaker 2: from him, And then also I would think that that
19:33
Speaker 2: would be why he was a lot of why he
19:35
Speaker 2: was so angry. He did. He not want this documentary
19:38
Speaker 2: to happen.
19:39
Speaker 1: Not necessarily. He actually, first of all, kind of came
19:44
Speaker 1: out as his son through the court system before my
19:46
Speaker 1: doc was even in production.
19:49
Speaker 2: But people knowing about it, I mean, like sharing it openly.
19:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean like if you googled his name a
19:56
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, it would have popped up. But
19:59
Speaker 1: also so when I told him I wanted to make
20:02
Speaker 1: a doc about this and I had no money, he
20:05
Speaker 1: had just sold a house and he gave me some
20:07
Speaker 1: startup money and he sat in a chair and told
20:11
Speaker 1: me his life story and signed an appearance release. Yeah,
20:15
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it wasn't going to be hard for
20:17
Speaker 1: him to do it with me the whole way, But
20:23
Speaker 1: it was something he supported and he you know, told me,
20:29
Speaker 1: you know, remember I gave you startup money. I you know,
20:33
Speaker 1: I did this for you, and you know, I think
20:38
Speaker 1: you're going in the right direction, he said in the dock,
20:40
Speaker 1: like over the phone. I think he wanted me to
20:46
Speaker 1: uncover the things that should be uncovered, because it didn't
20:50
Speaker 1: seem like anyone else was going to. However, like the
20:55
Speaker 1: information we inherited while trying to figure out who Charlie
21:00
Speaker 1: Manson is is very traumatic, you know, we not and
21:07
Speaker 1: like you start off with the murders themselves, right, how
21:10
Speaker 1: many stab wounds, how many victims, their names, the people
21:15
Speaker 1: who stab those people? That's it was traumatic for me
21:18
Speaker 1: to read. And no doubt someone coming like two people coming,
21:24
Speaker 1: my dad and I coming from a place where we
21:27
Speaker 1: you know, looked at zero true crime. It was kind
21:29
Speaker 1: of crazy. I knew about Ted Bundy. I think the
21:31
Speaker 1: Netflix stock had come out, so I knew about him
21:34
Speaker 1: because of that coming out. But to go from not
21:37
Speaker 1: consuming that sort of thing to now having to completely
21:41
Speaker 1: face it was very traumatic. And then and then further
21:45
Speaker 1: than that, start to really investigate who Manson was as
21:51
Speaker 1: a human being and not like a figure of Satan
21:55
Speaker 1: or whatever. You can tell. My dad thinks everything is
22:01
Speaker 1: a lie, and I don't blame him, But for me,
22:07
Speaker 1: I'm like evidence based. I look at paperwork, I look
22:10
Speaker 1: at documents, I read transcripts, I interview people face to face.
22:16
Speaker 1: He couldn't do any of.
22:17
Speaker 2: That, so via, yeah, can you expand upon that a
22:19
Speaker 2: little bit. What do you think he thinks is a lie?
22:22
Speaker 1: I'm not going to expand on it because I I
22:26
Speaker 1: don't really want to. It's not I know, this is
22:29
Speaker 1: like a true crime podcast, but I think I'm gonna
22:32
Speaker 1: let the dogs speak for itself. It's not super helpful
22:36
Speaker 1: coming from me, but I just really encourage people, you know,
22:40
Speaker 1: to research, you know, do their own. I'm not here
22:44
Speaker 1: to tell people what to think, but you know, my
22:48
Speaker 1: there's been sensationalism, and my dad got overwhelmed and he
22:54
Speaker 1: got fed up, and he didn't want to believe any
22:58
Speaker 1: word anyone says anymore because because he didn't know what
23:01
Speaker 1: to believe. And that's a very human reaction, and I
23:05
Speaker 1: think that's what he couldn't handle doing. He was shocked
23:08
Speaker 1: that I was able to like face ex convicts or
23:13
Speaker 1: family members. He was like, oh, I can't do that.
23:16
Speaker 1: Like I can't do that.
23:17
Speaker 3: So I.
23:20
Speaker 1: Was raised much differently from my dad. My dad was there,
23:24
Speaker 1: and he made me strong, and so did my mom,
23:27
Speaker 1: and so did my upbringing. I went to school, he
23:29
Speaker 1: never graduated high school. I think his confidence in himself
23:35
Speaker 1: is so different than mine, you know what I mean,
23:38
Speaker 1: Like I felt I could take this On. I felt
23:42
Speaker 1: like I could be a Joan of Arc and he
23:46
Speaker 1: at sixty two years old, his life just turned upside
23:50
Speaker 1: down and we just coped in different ways.
23:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we don't talk. You know, it's hard to
23:58
Speaker 2: talk to you about any of this because for me,
24:00
Speaker 2: it was the documentary is obviously it's about you finding
24:04
Speaker 2: out that your grandfather's Charles Manson, but it feels even
24:06
Speaker 2: more about you and your dad. I mean, do you
24:07
Speaker 2: feel like that I.
24:09
Speaker 1: Tried to split it half fifty to fifty, but you know,
24:12
Speaker 1: it is what it is.
24:14
Speaker 2: So I'm but I had questions at the end of it.
24:16
Speaker 2: So like I was saying, pay, let's put aside where
24:20
Speaker 2: he stood at the end, and I didn't know exactly
24:24
Speaker 2: where you stood at the end in terms of like
24:26
Speaker 2: what was fabricated? What about the crimes do you believe
24:30
Speaker 2: were reported not accurately? Like I couldn't. I wasn't quite
24:35
Speaker 2: clear on that, Like what part of Charles Manson's story
24:39
Speaker 2: because you've done so much research and you read all
24:41
Speaker 2: the transcripts and interviewed these people face to face, what
24:45
Speaker 2: do you think is not true?
24:46
Speaker 1: I don't know, if I can say honestly, I don't
24:49
Speaker 1: know if I'm even allowed, but if you watched the documentary,
24:54
Speaker 1: my conversation with Stephen Kay, the assistant prosecutor to Buliosi,
25:00
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the doc speaks for itself. I'll
25:02
Speaker 1: say this. When I found out who my grandfather was,
25:05
Speaker 1: and I looked up you know, Wikipedia and watched Once
25:07
Speaker 1: upon a Time, and I believed every headline I sincerely did.
25:13
Speaker 1: I believed everything that was said about him. And when
25:17
Speaker 1: I started talking to my uncle Mike, who matched with
25:21
Speaker 1: my dad on ancestry.
25:23
Speaker 2: That's Charles Manson's other.
25:25
Speaker 1: Sonne Yeah, and I had interviewed him for the doc.
25:28
Speaker 1: He didn't end up being in it, but he was
25:32
Speaker 1: very supportive too. So my dad and my uncle, you know,
25:35
Speaker 1: both gave their blessing to do this. But he went
25:41
Speaker 1: his whole life believing the same thing too. The headlines
25:45
Speaker 1: the Wikipedia page Helter Skelter Vincent Buliosi, the prosecutor's book
25:50
Speaker 1: Helter Skelter Bugliosis, also in the Helter Skeltered movie, the
25:55
Speaker 1: one that you referenced earlier in the interview. He believed
25:59
Speaker 1: everything as as did I. It wasn't until Manson died
26:03
Speaker 1: that Mike started looking into things and he had some regret,
26:08
Speaker 1: so he you know, reached out and was like, if
26:11
Speaker 1: you're interested in looking into this more, because there's more,
26:14
Speaker 1: and then meets the eye. Here are some books and
26:17
Speaker 1: he left me. He left me with some books and
26:20
Speaker 1: like pointed me to tr out trial transcripts. And I
26:24
Speaker 1: looked at raw transcripts, and I looked at who was where,
26:30
Speaker 1: and I also looked into Vincent Buliosi and what kind
26:33
Speaker 1: of person he is. He was he was a prosecutor,
26:37
Speaker 1: he had domestic violence tendencies as well. I don't know,
26:43
Speaker 1: I just started, like the wall started crumbling down. It
26:45
Speaker 1: was like a rude awakening to like, oh, you should
26:48
Speaker 1: trust him. You shouldn't just trust the media all the time,
26:52
Speaker 1: like you should question, you should critically think. And Buliosi's
26:57
Speaker 1: word doesn't mean it's fact. His job was to make up,
27:00
Speaker 1: to build a story to prosecute, and he did it
27:03
Speaker 1: very successfully. He's a very smart guy. But like my
27:07
Speaker 1: therapist said in the beginning of the doc, it's she said, Sophia,
27:13
Speaker 1: it sounds like you're inheriting some there's some sensationalism around
27:17
Speaker 1: your grandfather, and it's your god given right to as
27:20
Speaker 1: a descendant of someone sensationalized to figure out who exactly
27:24
Speaker 1: you come from, because otherwise you are inheriting sensational wounds
27:29
Speaker 1: and that's not going to be helpful to break generational traumas.
27:33
Speaker 1: So yeah, I could have stopped at the headlines and
27:36
Speaker 1: just like worked through Okay, you know he is all
27:40
Speaker 1: of these things. I could have, but I don't know.
27:45
Speaker 1: I dove right in.
28:02
Speaker 2: Well, you said at the beginning of the interview that
28:04
Speaker 2: you wanted to do there was two things that were
28:06
Speaker 2: going on here, right, You wanted to sort of expose
28:10
Speaker 2: I don't know if you put it that way, but
28:12
Speaker 2: maybe just expose the reality some of the untruths. And
28:16
Speaker 2: also it became about you and your dad. So like,
28:20
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's right. Those are the two
28:22
Speaker 2: halves of what's happening in this documentary. You are researching
28:26
Speaker 2: the reality of Charles Manson and also looking at the
28:32
Speaker 2: reality of what you, you know, and your dad have become.
28:35
Speaker 1: So I guess, well that was later the first few
28:39
Speaker 1: months of knowing and investigating, I had no idea I'd
28:41
Speaker 1: ever do a documentary, you know what I mean, Like,
28:44
Speaker 1: I was just for myself. I'm like, I don't really
28:46
Speaker 1: know who this guy is like, I guess Wikipedia doesn't
28:49
Speaker 1: have all the answers, right.
28:50
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah. But what I want to know is
28:53
Speaker 2: what's important to you in terms Often you can't you know,
28:57
Speaker 2: you're not. People will believe what they want to believe,
28:59
Speaker 2: and they'll they'll watch to the doc and they'll, you know,
29:01
Speaker 2: draw their own conclusions. But I guess I want to
29:04
Speaker 2: know what's important. What's the message from you? And so
29:08
Speaker 2: you and your dad and that relationship is complex and
29:11
Speaker 2: obviously a lot of the focuses on that what you
29:14
Speaker 2: don't really want to speak to what was true and
29:16
Speaker 2: what was not true? But which parts of it? Like
29:21
Speaker 2: do you think you I was a viewer? I am
29:23
Speaker 2: a viewer. I walk away. Would you like me to
29:26
Speaker 2: walk away feeling like maybe he wasn't he didn't physically
29:30
Speaker 2: commit the crimes.
29:31
Speaker 1: No, I don't want I don't have any expectation or
29:34
Speaker 1: want anyone to walk away with a certain like belief
29:37
Speaker 1: system over what happened. But I think what I wanted
29:42
Speaker 1: the audience to take away from is that let's go
29:46
Speaker 1: like the family side of the generational trauma side. I
29:49
Speaker 1: wanted people to walk away from it understanding like you
29:53
Speaker 1: can come from the worst of the worst, infamously or
29:57
Speaker 1: not infamously. And if you decide to be a good person,
30:02
Speaker 1: if you want to be a good person, if you
30:06
Speaker 1: do the work, and if you believe in who you are,
30:08
Speaker 1: and it's really hard to love yourself when it feels
30:11
Speaker 1: like no one else loves you back. That's a very
30:14
Speaker 1: hard thing to learn. My dad had to learn it.
30:16
Speaker 1: He didn't feel like anyone loved him. You know, I
30:19
Speaker 1: was lucky and I was born with a dad who
30:21
Speaker 1: loved me. But to find love within yourself that and
30:25
Speaker 1: especially if you come from a dark place, that it
30:29
Speaker 1: shoudn't matter that your dreams are going to be valid
30:32
Speaker 1: and your life is going to have great meaning. Right
30:35
Speaker 1: That was the you know, main takeaway I wanted people
30:38
Speaker 1: to walk away with. And like regards to Manson, I
30:44
Speaker 1: think like I think doctor Shug the rorshack exam examiner
30:51
Speaker 1: who's a criminal psychologist, so his job is to work
30:55
Speaker 1: with criminals who are incarcerated right now. And Dan who
31:01
Speaker 1: was the juvenile justice reform expert who spoke with me
31:06
Speaker 1: at Indiana Boys' School. It's so important to look at
31:10
Speaker 1: the root cause of violence in order for it to
31:14
Speaker 1: stop happening. In order for cycles to end, you must
31:18
Speaker 1: look at the root cause of things. I think labeling,
31:22
Speaker 1: you know, evil hitler like person that might wrap it
31:29
Speaker 1: up in a bow for many people, and it's easy
31:32
Speaker 1: palatable for people to take that in. It gets complicated
31:36
Speaker 1: when you look at how a human was able to
31:38
Speaker 1: do some like be a part of something so awful.
31:41
Speaker 2: You definitely included a lot in terms of, you know,
31:45
Speaker 2: the history of him a person hurting people, and in
31:49
Speaker 2: terms of the drugs of it all.
31:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, my interest is like trying to stop the cycle.
31:54
Speaker 1: So if it's like stopping the cycle of abuse in
31:57
Speaker 1: family dynamics and traumas, like also, how can we stop
32:01
Speaker 1: crimes like this from happening again?
32:04
Speaker 2: So I have questions about I know that at least
32:08
Speaker 2: from what I understand. Correct me if I'm wrong. You
32:10
Speaker 2: and your dad are not in contact right now.
32:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he's blocked me.
32:15
Speaker 2: I saw obviously the scene in the car, which was
32:18
Speaker 2: very upsetting and sad, and I'm sorry for that, and
32:25
Speaker 2: I am wondering though, you know, he it was so
32:28
Speaker 2: clear to see how much he loves you and you
32:30
Speaker 2: love him, and so what is he? What was I
32:33
Speaker 2: don't really what happened that you're not speaking now? Was
32:38
Speaker 2: it after the car scene?
32:39
Speaker 1: I mean, I yeah, I mean it was a fight
32:42
Speaker 1: we had. We've had lots of fights, like you can
32:44
Speaker 1: even see it when I was a child, and I
32:46
Speaker 1: don't really remember that child car fight happening. But my team,
32:51
Speaker 1: my dad gave me a hard drive of all the
32:53
Speaker 1: childhood videos and photos he ever took of me, Like
32:56
Speaker 1: you could make a whole documentary of my childhood just
32:59
Speaker 1: from those videos. And he gave it to me, you know,
33:01
Speaker 1: to help with the doc and I gave it to
33:04
Speaker 1: my team and the editors. There's just so much footage
33:07
Speaker 1: of me as a baby, and they found how they
33:11
Speaker 1: found a car fight you know, when I was I
33:13
Speaker 1: think I must have been like thirteen, and it really
33:16
Speaker 1: resembles and mirrors what happened as an adult. I say, like,
33:20
Speaker 1: I'm not mad, I'm not mad. I'm trying to like
33:23
Speaker 1: de escalate, de escalate, and you know he's having, you know,
33:30
Speaker 1: some sort of mental health thing going on, and it's
33:34
Speaker 1: taking it out on me. And I think what I
33:38
Speaker 1: can glean looking back, my dad can break in stressful
33:45
Speaker 1: situations and in the car fight, in the car fight
33:49
Speaker 1: with me as a kid. I don't know if you
33:52
Speaker 1: can really tell, but he's really stressed about money, and
33:55
Speaker 1: he's stressed about working, and you know, I'm taking care
33:59
Speaker 1: of you and I'm sticking around. I've got to work.
34:04
Speaker 1: And then as an adult, it's like we found out
34:07
Speaker 1: who were related to and we found out we've inherited
34:12
Speaker 1: some huge conspiracy. Like it's unprece attented. It's like it's
34:16
Speaker 1: wild and frankly, the fight started with something so small
34:23
Speaker 1: and minute, and it just kept escalating.
34:26
Speaker 2: Why were you guys taping it? Were you going somewhere
34:29
Speaker 2: that you were?
34:30
Speaker 1: I was taking him to get acupuncture for his back
34:33
Speaker 1: and neck, I offered, And when I was driving back home,
34:36
Speaker 1: we got in a fight and he started calling me names.
34:39
Speaker 1: So I pulled over and put my emergency lights on
34:42
Speaker 1: and started recording, like not for the doc, but for
34:46
Speaker 1: safety purposes, because I felt if someone else was in
34:49
Speaker 1: the car right now, you would not be calling me
34:51
Speaker 1: those names. Like you cannot get away with this, you
34:54
Speaker 1: cannot keep getting away with this, So I record. I
34:57
Speaker 1: showed it him. I was like, say that again to me,
34:59
Speaker 1: and he said, and he starts saying, no, no, I'm
35:01
Speaker 1: not going to do that because he knows now someone
35:03
Speaker 1: could watch this one day, and then once they start
35:07
Speaker 1: pulling back into the road, he starts calling me names again.
35:10
Speaker 1: So it was just like for me, a stress response
35:16
Speaker 1: of like, this isn't right, this isn't okay. I'm not
35:22
Speaker 1: mad at you, I love you, I'm holding space for you,
35:26
Speaker 1: but this isn't okay for you to say these things
35:29
Speaker 1: to me. So I started recording, and that's why I'm like,
35:32
Speaker 1: that's when I say, like, do you want to say
35:34
Speaker 1: those things again to me? Because I'm recording it.
35:36
Speaker 2: Now right right? Why was he so mad? What happened
35:39
Speaker 2: in the car before that?
35:40
Speaker 1: You know? I told him it's gonna sound really, really silly.
35:44
Speaker 1: I told him that he shouldn't tell women to smile.
35:49
Speaker 1: For me, it was like a thing that happened to
35:52
Speaker 1: me as a kid all the time. I would take
35:54
Speaker 1: Uber cars Uber rides to like Ballet and the drivers
36:00
Speaker 1: to be male sometimes and they'd always be like, you
36:02
Speaker 1: should smile, you should smile more. And so I saw
36:06
Speaker 1: him do it to a woman. I was like, Dad,
36:07
Speaker 1: don't tell women a smile, And it just escalated from there. Yeah,
36:13
Speaker 1: it could have been anything though, if it wasn't that
36:16
Speaker 1: My dad's mechanism for coping with stressful things is to
36:19
Speaker 1: push people away. And he's I'm not the only one
36:22
Speaker 1: he's pushed away. He's pushed away everyone in his life.
36:27
Speaker 1: So I have sibling, like one sibling and a half
36:29
Speaker 1: sibling who hasn't spoken to him in a year and
36:31
Speaker 1: a half.
36:32
Speaker 2: It's not just me, So okay, So now so I'm sorry,
36:36
Speaker 2: But the sibling thing, where are they? Are you in
36:39
Speaker 2: touch with them? Are you? Are these people that you?
36:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I'm in touch, but they don't want
36:44
Speaker 1: to They didn't want to be in the dock. They
36:45
Speaker 1: appreciated it and they saw it and yeah.
36:48
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so he I mean, it's hard to imagine
36:52
Speaker 2: a father block like I can father blocking a daughter.
36:57
Speaker 2: That must be so hard and so so hurtful. Give
37:01
Speaker 2: any idea like why would he say that he did
37:04
Speaker 2: it because he was so angry with you for recording him?
37:06
Speaker 2: Do you think that's that was his bottom line?
37:09
Speaker 1: No, because he's blocked me before when I was like
37:11
Speaker 1: a teenager. So it's funny because like out of context,
37:15
Speaker 1: everyone might be like, oh, it's because she recorded him.
37:19
Speaker 1: Oh it's because she's doing this doc but these these
37:23
Speaker 1: things have been happening before Manson came up on the scene.
37:25
Speaker 1: He blocked me when I was seventeen, eighteen years old too.
37:28
Speaker 1: I didn't speak for a couple of years. That was
37:30
Speaker 1: before Manson came up in our lives. He blocked my
37:35
Speaker 1: half sister a year prior to blocking me, and I
37:39
Speaker 1: told him. I was like, you know, I'm afraid you'll
37:41
Speaker 1: do that to me one day. He's like, no, no,
37:43
Speaker 1: I won't. But it's you know, I can't speculate. He
37:47
Speaker 1: hasn't taken any mental health tests, but in speaking to
37:51
Speaker 1: my therapist or the Worshack exam psychiatrist, you know, those
37:56
Speaker 1: behaviors align with someone who struggles with you know what
38:02
Speaker 1: I think might be X y Z. I'm not going
38:05
Speaker 1: to say it because those aren't like it's not certain.
38:07
Speaker 1: There's not a test that I can confirm them.
38:10
Speaker 2: Are you saying mental illness or you're saying something bigger
38:13
Speaker 2: than that?
38:13
Speaker 1: No, hypomania, bipolar like, narcissism like these are speculation, you know,
38:19
Speaker 1: but you know, without I asked them to get a test,
38:21
Speaker 1: and I asked him to seek therapy and to talk
38:24
Speaker 1: to people. But when I talk about my experiences with
38:29
Speaker 1: my therapists. She does say, like those behaviors and actions
38:34
Speaker 1: aligned with someone who has X, Y and Z, not psychopathy,
38:39
Speaker 1: not like schizophrenia. Like I think people jump there because
38:42
Speaker 1: of the Manson of it all. But even Manson wasn't schizophrenic.
38:47
Speaker 1: He was schitz a tipple, which actually skits a tipple
38:49
Speaker 1: if you google it. It's not seeing things that aren't there.
38:53
Speaker 1: It's pushing people away and isolating yourself. So you know,
38:58
Speaker 1: I took that rorshack exam compared it to Manson's results
39:01
Speaker 1: for a reason to see what was in my nature
39:05
Speaker 1: if I inherited anything in my nature, to look at
39:07
Speaker 1: what he had in his nature, I think it's a
39:09
Speaker 1: fair thing for me to be curious about. Yeah, definitely,
39:13
Speaker 1: And luckily I didn't have anything there. But I also know,
39:18
Speaker 1: like if he was born with schizotypal hypomania, bipolar I'm
39:21
Speaker 1: talking about Manson, I know that if he was born
39:26
Speaker 1: with those things, it was only exacerbated by his time
39:29
Speaker 1: in those institutions and in prisons. And I also know
39:33
Speaker 1: that my dad had similar experiences as a child, being abandoned,
39:37
Speaker 1: being homeless, having gone to Mount Low Military Academy. So
39:44
Speaker 1: like I don't think my dad is a bad person.
39:49
Speaker 1: I think I have a lot of you know, grace
39:52
Speaker 1: with him, and we've talked about, you know, potential mental
39:56
Speaker 1: health stuff that he might have. And unfortunately, I think
40:00
Speaker 1: my generation is more open and destigmatize those types of
40:04
Speaker 1: things aptly, yes, and the older generation doesn't want to
40:09
Speaker 1: look at it. So you know, I can't force him.
40:12
Speaker 1: I can't force him to do anything.
40:13
Speaker 2: And yeah, it was I have to say, I was
40:19
Speaker 2: a fascinating documentary. And when you took the warshack, I
40:23
Speaker 2: was not at all surprised that you had no traits
40:26
Speaker 2: like your grandfather. That was not a surprise to me,
40:29
Speaker 2: just and not that I don't know you, but in
40:31
Speaker 2: what I was observing on the documentary. But I definitely
40:34
Speaker 2: feel like at the end of it, I still had
40:37
Speaker 2: questions and maybe that's what Maybe that was purposeful on
40:40
Speaker 2: your end, And I started reading a little bit about
40:43
Speaker 2: what other people thought, and I saw sort of like
40:47
Speaker 2: the same questions are you experiencing that that people are asking?
40:50
Speaker 2: Are people asking you the same questions? Are there are
40:52
Speaker 2: the rec how do you how are you finding the
40:54
Speaker 2: reactions to the documentary.
40:56
Speaker 1: As it relates to like the case or me and.
40:59
Speaker 2: My dad, you your dad, I mean yeah.
41:01
Speaker 1: I mean like people are always asking me have you
41:04
Speaker 1: talked to him since then? And the answer is truthful
41:08
Speaker 1: and it is no. But I guess I guess that's it.
41:13
Speaker 1: I think people just I had a few people go like, oh,
41:16
Speaker 1: I was waiting for you guys to get back together.
41:18
Speaker 1: But then I realized this is documentary. It's real life,
41:21
Speaker 1: and that doesn't happen a lot. So a lot of
41:24
Speaker 1: people who have been abandoned my parent by parents or
41:28
Speaker 1: had to abandon their parents for their own boundaries and
41:32
Speaker 1: protection really could like come to me and be like
41:35
Speaker 1: that was so real.
41:50
Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like because I still I don't
41:53
Speaker 2: quite get it. I don't quite get why and how
41:55
Speaker 2: could I am not? But I wonder if I'm seeing
41:58
Speaker 2: it the way you see it, like you don't quite
42:00
Speaker 2: get it why he has done this and why he
42:02
Speaker 2: has blocked you in the way that he has because
42:05
Speaker 2: I left, you know, when the documentary is over, I
42:08
Speaker 2: had definitely it wasn't wrapped up in a bow in
42:12
Speaker 2: any way, shape or form, which I think you probably
42:14
Speaker 2: intended it not to be. But like you know, a
42:19
Speaker 2: lot of times, because I do do true crime documentaries,
42:22
Speaker 2: there's some some kind of there's an ending and there's
42:25
Speaker 2: a finality to it or some kind of closure to it, right,
42:29
Speaker 2: And didn't feel as much that way with this. I
42:33
Speaker 2: wonder if you feel like still there's not a lot
42:35
Speaker 2: of closure in the sense that you aren't talking to
42:37
Speaker 2: your dad and you know, and again I don't really
42:41
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think I truly understood what was
42:48
Speaker 2: what were we going for here? Like was there a
42:50
Speaker 2: lot are there a lot of questions about the authenticity
42:53
Speaker 2: of his of Charles Manson's conviction and was he set up?
43:00
Speaker 2: I left it with again with just tons of questions,
43:02
Speaker 2: And maybe that's what you intended.
43:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've been encouraged to write a book about everything
43:07
Speaker 1: that I've learned, and lots of testimony and evidence did
43:12
Speaker 1: not end up in the dock. But you know, I
43:17
Speaker 1: think the finality of the movie is that I walk
43:22
Speaker 1: away a little bit more free, free from my dad,
43:25
Speaker 1: free from Charles Manson aka my grandfather. Right, Like I
43:31
Speaker 1: had to go through the process of feeling like I
43:34
Speaker 1: was really tethered to this story because I was so young.
43:38
Speaker 1: I found out when I was twenty two, and like
43:40
Speaker 1: I say in the dock, or my therapist says, I
43:43
Speaker 1: was groomed to carry victimhood. I'm a parentified child. There's
43:48
Speaker 1: like this thing online that's a lot of memes about
43:54
Speaker 1: the oldest daughter or like a lot of viral videos
43:57
Speaker 1: about oldest daughter syndrome to take care of everyone, carrying
44:02
Speaker 1: everyone's burdens. So for me, the final scene in the
44:07
Speaker 1: movie is really finding my own identity, no longer carrying
44:13
Speaker 1: the burdens that you know, my father, my grandfather you know,
44:18
Speaker 1: passed down on to me, no longer taking responsibility for
44:23
Speaker 1: people's thoughts or opinions or actions. And also like the
44:27
Speaker 1: survivor's guilt thing too, because my because Charles was complicit
44:32
Speaker 1: in it no matter what. He may not have been there,
44:36
Speaker 1: but you know, and it's up for speculation whatever you
44:40
Speaker 1: might think, but he was undoubtedly a part of it
44:46
Speaker 1: and complicit. And for me, like learning about his criminal
44:49
Speaker 1: code and what he learned in prison as survival mechanisms
44:53
Speaker 1: like to not snitch or get a brother out of jail.
44:56
Speaker 1: Like that for me spoke more volume than just like
45:03
Speaker 1: the evil guy that I read about in headlines, and
45:06
Speaker 1: it makes me want to go into philanthropic work work
45:10
Speaker 1: like helping at risk youth, or you know, looking at
45:14
Speaker 1: prison reform and what can we be doing to stop
45:19
Speaker 1: the cycles of abuse, to help people cope with the
45:26
Speaker 1: outside world if they've been in prison their whole lives.
45:30
Speaker 1: I read in a parole letter right before Charles Manson
45:35
Speaker 1: got out of prison. He wrote his parole board. He
45:38
Speaker 1: was like thirty years old, and he begged not to
45:41
Speaker 1: get out of prison. He begged to stick, for them
45:44
Speaker 1: to keep him because he said, they're telling me I'm
45:48
Speaker 1: too old for halfway housing. My recorders to my record
45:51
Speaker 1: is too bad to get a job. I have no family,
45:55
Speaker 1: and I have nowhere to go, and no one is
45:56
Speaker 1: going to help me. And they let him out and
46:00
Speaker 1: two years later the murders happened. Yeah, So for me,
46:04
Speaker 1: looking at that route is so much more. It means
46:10
Speaker 1: so much more to me because I feel like there's
46:12
Speaker 1: actionable steps we can take to stop violence and to
46:15
Speaker 1: stop these crimes from happening. And like I even though
46:20
Speaker 1: that pro letter wasn't in the documentary, of course, and
46:23
Speaker 1: like I still go to Indiana Boys' School. I still,
46:25
Speaker 1: you know, look at how institutionalized he was. So I'm
46:30
Speaker 1: hoping people you know, it'll it'll rise to the surface
46:34
Speaker 1: for people when they walk away from the film, maybe
46:36
Speaker 1: like a few days later, it'll come up and they'll
46:38
Speaker 1: be like, oh wow, yeah, I mean, and have their
46:41
Speaker 1: own thoughts and opinions about it.
46:43
Speaker 2: But was it hard for you to and I don't
46:45
Speaker 2: know how much input you had, like final word what
46:48
Speaker 2: was included and what wasn't was were you the decider
46:52
Speaker 2: of that or I'm assuming there was some the director
46:56
Speaker 2: and the producer, But were there things that you wanted
46:59
Speaker 2: in it that didn't get in it or by or
47:02
Speaker 2: were there things that you did not want in it?
47:04
Speaker 1: Yes, there's always things in every filmmaking like a process.
47:09
Speaker 1: So it's not just me, but every film maker goes
47:14
Speaker 1: through a grieving period because something that they loved couldn't
47:19
Speaker 1: make it in their film. And of course I had that,
47:22
Speaker 1: I definitely did. But I got as much as I
47:25
Speaker 1: could in and yeah, I'm a director and an EP
47:29
Speaker 1: on it. But then it would it would have started
47:33
Speaker 1: getting into Wikipedia, you know, bullet point like evidence, evidence, evidence, evidence,
47:38
Speaker 1: and you're getting to less storytelling. So I think I
47:41
Speaker 1: was encouraged to like find another outlet for all of
47:44
Speaker 1: the evidence that I gathered if I choose to one
47:46
Speaker 1: day put it in a book. But I'm also like.
47:50
Speaker 3: Listen, I'm also not a true crime enthusiast. I inherited
47:54
Speaker 3: the most insane true crime story, but my goodness, I
47:57
Speaker 3: was like pursuing the arts. I dropped out of college
48:01
Speaker 3: when I was twenty.
48:02
Speaker 1: My mom really wanted me to work a corporate job
48:05
Speaker 1: and be in human resources, and I tried and I
48:10
Speaker 1: couldn't do it, so I dropped out of school. I
48:14
Speaker 1: founded my production company, Joan of Arc Pictures. I was
48:17
Speaker 1: twenty one years old. I made a short film. I
48:21
Speaker 1: realized the friends that I had suddenly were all filmmakers.
48:27
Speaker 1: I don't talk to one person from my high school,
48:29
Speaker 1: elementary school, middle school because none of them are filmmakers
48:32
Speaker 1: or artists. My best friends, a DP, my best friends,
48:35
Speaker 1: and actress. So like, I'm not even a part of
48:37
Speaker 1: this true crime world. And I always have to like
48:40
Speaker 1: find a way to tow the line between manson crime
48:45
Speaker 1: enthusiast because I am very well versed and researched, but
48:50
Speaker 1: also remembering like I'm also so separate from it.
48:55
Speaker 2: I so am, well, it's interesting because I have a
48:59
Speaker 2: true crime podcast. So then assume that I'm a true
49:02
Speaker 2: crime aficionado fan. But the truth is, before the podcast,
49:09
Speaker 2: I watched true crime, but I wasn't addicted to true
49:11
Speaker 2: crime at all, not like so I didn't realize how
49:13
Speaker 2: many people are and how many people are just true
49:16
Speaker 2: crime fanatics, but what I like about it. I am
49:20
Speaker 2: now a true crime enthusiast. But it's not because I
49:25
Speaker 2: don't get scared, and it's not because I enjoy watching
49:28
Speaker 2: people in pain or blood, guts and gore. I've found
49:32
Speaker 2: that through this process there is always something that shines
49:37
Speaker 2: through somehow, right, So whether I'm interviewing people who whose
49:44
Speaker 2: sons were murdered when they were they were being there,
49:48
Speaker 2: they were hazed, you know, at a fraternity, but like
49:52
Speaker 2: now all these years later, these people that have been
49:56
Speaker 2: through it, their courage and they're resilient and now they
50:00
Speaker 2: are changing laws. So that's that's an example. Or we've
50:05
Speaker 2: been through, we've done you know, people that were wrongfully
50:09
Speaker 2: convicted and watching that process and seeing what they've been through.
50:15
Speaker 2: But there's always, at least so far I'm there's always
50:19
Speaker 2: something that is human human, thank you, Yes, human, Yes.
50:24
Speaker 1: Which is brilliant, that's beautiful.
50:26
Speaker 2: Yes, And you certainly are that in this documentary and
50:30
Speaker 2: I told you already, but I was very taken aback
50:33
Speaker 2: to think that we were going to even talk about
50:35
Speaker 2: Charles Manson, so you know, to know that his look
50:41
Speaker 2: at this genealogy, but look at this beautiful young woman
50:44
Speaker 2: who is doing her thing and who is you may
50:47
Speaker 2: have you know, there maybe generational trauma, but clearly, uh
50:52
Speaker 2: you know you are not a product of him and
50:55
Speaker 2: what he did. So you know, it's it's scary, it's sad.
50:59
Speaker 2: I'm very sad for you and your father. That was.
51:03
Speaker 2: I'm sad that you're not talking now because I really
51:05
Speaker 2: you were very good about showing what a loving dad
51:08
Speaker 2: he was and how close that you were. So I
51:11
Speaker 2: hope that you guys can can find each other again.
51:14
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was. It was really fascinating and amazing
51:19
Speaker 2: for someone I don't mean to be condescending, but your
51:22
Speaker 2: age to have you know, been able to just express
51:26
Speaker 2: yourself deal with this. I can't imagine. I mean, my
51:30
Speaker 2: I have a twenty four year old daughter, twenty six
51:31
Speaker 2: year old son. I'm assuming you're round.
51:33
Speaker 1: I'm twenty six.
51:35
Speaker 2: Well there you go, so I don't I can't imagine
51:39
Speaker 2: them having to take all of this in and then
51:41
Speaker 2: be productive with it. So good for you, yank you.
51:45
Speaker 1: So not everyone's understanding that, but I think when I mean,
51:50
Speaker 1: first of all, your kids are very lucky to have
51:52
Speaker 1: you and have oh supportive parents, serious.
51:55
Speaker 2: And nice thing to say, thank you.
51:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's the difference between me having done
52:01
Speaker 1: this doc and me not. If I had two parents
52:06
Speaker 1: that really like held my hand through this, I may
52:09
Speaker 1: not have made this dock. But because no one was
52:13
Speaker 1: holding my hand through this, I you kind of go
52:17
Speaker 1: a little crazy with it just being here that there
52:20
Speaker 1: was no physical manifestation of my life turning upside down
52:25
Speaker 1: because everyone else was walking Lottie do.
52:28
Speaker 2: So, how long after you found out did you make
52:30
Speaker 2: the dock or did you begin to make the dock?
52:33
Speaker 1: So I found out May twenty twenty two, and by
52:36
Speaker 1: December I realized I had a story and maybe I
52:41
Speaker 1: could make a dock.
52:42
Speaker 2: Maybe six months later. In that six months, did you
52:45
Speaker 2: guys discuss it or was it just like we're putting
52:48
Speaker 2: that away?
52:48
Speaker 1: Yeah?
52:49
Speaker 2: Was it?
52:51
Speaker 1: It was like conversations here and there, Like I remember
52:54
Speaker 1: looking up Manson's early life and a picture of him
52:58
Speaker 1: popped up as a child, and I it hit me
53:01
Speaker 1: like a freight train. I was like, I did text
53:04
Speaker 1: my dad and I called him actually and I was like,
53:06
Speaker 1: he looks exactly like you as a kid. This is insane.
53:09
Speaker 2: You show the pictures.
53:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there was there's actually a different photo two
53:14
Speaker 1: of them near their the same age where they're a
53:16
Speaker 1: little bit older and they have the same smile lines
53:20
Speaker 1: and the eyes. And I'm just like, what is going on?
53:24
Speaker 1: So there was like a few things here and there.
53:26
Speaker 1: My dad sent me this Tarantino Joe Rogan podcast where
53:29
Speaker 1: they're talking about MK Ultra, and he'd be like, look
53:34
Speaker 1: at this, what are you know? What are they talking
53:36
Speaker 1: about here? So I decided to read the book Chaos
53:39
Speaker 1: by Tom O'Neil. So it was like few exchanges here
53:43
Speaker 1: and there, but you know, we didn't officially sit down
53:46
Speaker 1: to talk about it until I interviewed him for my
53:49
Speaker 1: documentary Sizzle Reel, which was like a year later. I
53:53
Speaker 1: put my like, my dad gave me some some seed money.
53:57
Speaker 1: My producer put his own money into it. I had
54:00
Speaker 1: like no money to my name, was nannying teaching ballet.
54:04
Speaker 1: I was a commercial actress. I wasn't telling anyone then
54:08
Speaker 1: and there. It was just like I might have a
54:10
Speaker 1: doc idea. I'm going to sit down with my dad
54:12
Speaker 1: and interview him for a movie. And my dad and
54:15
Speaker 1: I are filmmakers, so he understood like the drive and
54:18
Speaker 1: desire to make something out of something that we've been
54:22
Speaker 1: dealt with, the cars that we've been dealt with. So
54:25
Speaker 1: you know, it felt really lonely until like I was
54:30
Speaker 1: actually on set and I had crew, producers and subjects
54:35
Speaker 1: going through it with me. Yeah, which I felt bad for.
54:39
Speaker 1: I'm like, I feel like I'm burdening people now.
54:41
Speaker 2: But oh really had not been in the true crime world.
54:44
Speaker 2: Then my friends believe me. Yeah, there's no time to
54:49
Speaker 2: feel bad. It is it is. It's a trip.
54:52
Speaker 1: Yeah.
54:53
Speaker 2: Well, listen, I'm so glad that you joined us, and
54:57
Speaker 2: I'm so glad that you made the movie, and I'm
54:59
Speaker 2: send you prayers and love and again, whatever is meant
55:02
Speaker 2: to be will be. But I personally am rooting for
55:05
Speaker 2: you and your dad, not that it means that doesn't
55:07
Speaker 2: mean anything. Whatever's best for you, whatever's best for you.
55:10
Speaker 2: But he my impression of him throughout the movie, of
55:13
Speaker 2: course that scene was not good. But this is a
55:15
Speaker 2: man who really has been a devoted, loving father.
55:18
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's like my therapist said, what happens when
55:22
Speaker 1: you love from hurt places. Sometimes it's not always going
55:24
Speaker 1: to be you know, healthy.
55:26
Speaker 2: Well, nothing ever is completely healthy anyway. Yeah, thank you
55:30
Speaker 2: so much for having me my pleasure. Good luck to you.
55:33
Speaker 1: Thanks