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Handwriting Analysis · Why We Do What We Do

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You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome to Why we do
0:16
what we do. I am your forensically failing host Abraham and I'm your illegible
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host Shane. There you go. We're a psychology podcast. We talk about
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all of the things that people do and why they do them, and therefore
0:28
we're a psychology podcast. As I said, so, if you're joining us
0:32
for the first time, welcome, thanks for being here. We sometimes talk
0:35
about animals do and concepts, and sometimes we tackle crime. We do,
0:40
and today is not how we tackle crime, but we are going to talk
0:44
about how people try to tackle crime and how it is ultimately been debunked real
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hard. You could subtitle this episode how to not solve a crime. Yeah.
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In addition to that, and actually, before we get into that,
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we need to acknowledge that if you're joining us on the day that this publishes,
1:02
great, thanks, that's not fantastic. Yeah, real cool. We'd
1:03
like to wish you a happy Save the Eagles Day, because that is what
1:10
January tenth happens to be. Yeah, not the Philadelphia Eagles, we could
1:14
care less about them, but just eagles in general, the rest, like
1:17
actual important eagles. I just upset our entire Pennsylvania crowd. Yeah, so
1:23
sorry, Dan, that's fine. It's also house Plant Appreciation Days, so
1:26
make sure you water your plants and make sure they get direct or indirects on
1:30
light, depending on the type of plant they are. It is also take
1:33
the stairs Day, which I appreciate. I much prefer stares to escalators or
1:37
elevators if I can. Yeah, that's fair. It's also Peculiar People Day,
1:41
so I feel like you all are among those folks, so welcome.
1:45
Yes, wear your watermelon hats today. It is also National Cut your Energy
1:49
Costs Day, largely I think by investing in things like LED lights and you
1:55
know, not leaving the refrigerator door open all day to cool your house.
1:59
Type. Yeah, you don't want to have to chase it down the road
2:01
if your refrigerator is running too much. So that's right. It's a Bittersweet
2:05
Chocolate Day, which I think you and I are both bands of. Yes,
2:08
definitely. It is George Foreman's birthday today, so happy birthday, George
2:14
Foreman. I guess I think the only reason we brought him up is because
2:16
of the grill. Like he has a grill and he's got like eight kids
2:22
named George. So it's also Obesity Awareness Week, so definitely important thing,
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especially in the United States. Maybe not so much across the world, but
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definitely here in the US. We got to pay attention to this a little
2:34
bit more. And George Foreman's birthday and Obesity Awareness Week may have some overlap,
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who knows, But here we are we're not talking about George Foreman or
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any of those other holidays. We're actually talking about forensic analysis, where it
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works, where it doesn't work, and where it really doesn't work. Yes,
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So I have a question for you, how is your handwriting bad?
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So you and I think took the same class. I think that's what happens
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with doctors where there is a specific class. I don't think people know this,
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but there's a specific class that you take in your doctor program that's a
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handwriting class. It's doctorate handwriting, and it's to purposefully make your handwriting as
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terrible as possible. As you're writing, they just shake the table under you,
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they might push you, move your hands around. However fast you write
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it, they say, do it faster, and if they can read it,
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then they're like, no, f try again. Yeah, that's exactly
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my handwriting is god awful. It is. Yeah. I like my handwriting.
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I think it looks really cool. But people hate my handwriting. Yeah,
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that's fair. So penmanship, that's the thing. We've actually talked about
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versions of penmanship kind of we talked about right and left handedness. I don't
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know anyway, it's a thing. And when we're talking about how to wrap
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this into forensic analysis, because forensic analysis, for those of you who aren't
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totally clear what we mean when we say that refers to the art, if
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you will, of looking at evidence of crime scene things related to criminal activity
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and trying to understand what can be learned from the evidence from those scene itself.
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Sure, otherwise, you know, looking at things like if you ever
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watched Dexter, he did blood splatter analysis, which is like those actually legitimately
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like people who do blood splatter analysis as a way to try and solve crimes.
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They'll also hire psychics and people with dowsing rods, and they'll also do
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things like collect DNA sample. So the spectrum of forensic analysis science and what
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it entails is fast, to say the least, Yes, And I think
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lumping all of that underneath the banner of science is a little bit cavalier,
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So we are not going to do that today, but I think it is
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important to know that, like, there are legitimate sciences underneath forensic analysis and
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then there's hand writing analysis, and we are going to kind of talk about
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how those things are separate, and how we respect the ones that are doing
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actual scientific analysis, and how we have to just kind of take a moment
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to debunk what people spend a lot of time and resources on, because I
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think ultimately our value is that we don't want to spend time or waste time
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on something that is not useful when there might be a useful or better tool
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that's going to help accomplish the thing that we're trying to accomplish. And especially
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in the forensic world, where time is of the essence, we don't want
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to waste time on psychics and other practices that do not yield actual results.
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Yes, exactly, So today, as we sort of already alluded to,
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as we're talking about handwriting, we're talking about handwriting analysis in forensic detective work
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as a way to narrow down your suspect pool, to create a profile about
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your suspect, to learn something about the people who are involved in whatever crime
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scene or criminal activity has taken place, and therefore use that to inform what
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the police are doing. And yes, as we've already said, they have
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a limited window of opportunity to do their investigating to try and resolve a crime
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of some sort, and so we want them to be using any and all
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tools that are going to help them do that job. And we're not talking
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about one of those tools today. Instead we're talking about this handwriting analysis.
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Then, right, we want to see efficient, effective, and accurate is
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what we want to really see in this space. And this is not any
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of those things we've been sort of pontificating, I think, largely on what
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we're talking about. So let's just dive into our topic to clarify. So
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we're talking about handwriting analysis, and this is different from forensic handwriting analysis,
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which are often used to analyze patterns and determine authorship. What we're talking about
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is the use of handwriting to describe someone's psychological profile. Yes, I think
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it's important to note that the majority of searches that we did as part of
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the preparation for this, that Shane was doing in his preparation for this,
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there seems to be a lack of clear definition between the two, because if
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you're trying to describe someone's psychological profile by looking at their handwriting, that's very
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much in the vein of someone who is doing forensic investigation, who is trying
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to describe the psychological profile of the person of interest, right right. And
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so although we say we're not talking about forensic hand although we say that it's
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different, how it's different is unclear to even the people who seem to be
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doing it, or at least the way that that has been talked about,
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so that when we read it, it seems like they do not have a
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clarity on it. The way that I understood it as I was going through
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this is there's like three different camps. There are the folks that use it
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for medical diagnoses, and that's a fairly new camp in the handwriting analysis from
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space specifically looking at like neurodegenitive disorders, and we'll talk about that later.
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There is the group that looks at like authorship and like something that's pretty consistent,
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like can I match handwriting to somebody else's handwriting? Like, and that
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seems to be pretty objective based on certain things. But what we're talking about
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is the practice where you are going, I can tell that the way that
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you write your teas means that you're sarcastic. And that is the part that
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we're talking about today, is that space where it's going. I can tell
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your personality based on the way that you write, Right, that's the part
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that we're trying to debunk a little bit. Now. Well, that practice
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is called graphology. Graphology is the practice of analyzing someone's handwriting to determine someone's
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personality traits, and to kind of give you an idea of where this comes
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from. Grapho is from the Greek term for writing, and logos is from
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the Greek meaning related to discussion or theory. So any ologies have that logos
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kind of component to it, right, like psychologos? Yeah, where a
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Psychologos podcast. The origin of handwriting analysis began as far back as fifteen seventy
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five, at least as far back as we've found evidence for it, which
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means it probably precedes that because this is the publication of Right, here's some
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Latin I think examined de Ingenius Parlaciensius. I think it's Italian or Spanish.
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Okay, then I did not deliver that anywhere close to real. Actually,
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no matter what language I was trying to do, that's my American English verse
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of reading that. Sure, this was written by Juan Huerte de San Juan,
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while this is a long name. However, there is some debate on
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that too. Yeah. So since Americans love to rewrite history from time to
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time, it is argued that Camillobaldi actually wrote the first handwriting analysis book in
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sixteen twenty two, and that was called and this is I believe Italian tretto
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come da una littera missive ce conoscano la natra equalita dello scritore. Everyone's gonna
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definitely remember that title. It's definitely like it just rolls off the tongue.
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And also again that was my very American white annunciation of that. But this
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is considered to be the first handwriting analysis in American graphology, the first book
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on handwriting analysis. So the Italian book on graphology is the first American Like
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the kind of the origin story of this in sixteen twenty two, okay,
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so the basically like it was written in presumably Italian, but it was the
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thing that kicked off handswriting analysis in America. That yeah, and I understand,
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Okay, that's how I'm understanding it too. But I would also like
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to point out that just like we couldn't figure out, like they couldn't agree
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on what handwriting analysis was across the board, they can't even agree on the
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origina. So there's one book in fifteen seventy five, there's one book in
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sixteen twenty two. We know that these are kind of important hallmarks of the
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handwriting analysis history. Okay, And more of that history is that graphology as
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we know it was eventually founded as a quote unquote official practice by Jean Hippolyte
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Michon after he began to publish many of his works on the subject. He
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eventually went on to found the Society Graphologic in eighteen seventy one, giving handwriting
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analysis its official organization alongside the Society Phrenology. I think, yeah, maybe
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sharing some values and methods, yes, exactly. So the use of handwriting
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analyzes became quite popular, and with psychologist Fred Bennet describing graphology as quote the
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science of the future. I always love that kind of like tagline, it's
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the filtra, right, and how people kind of would do that. They
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still do that. But after World War One there was a massive spread of
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graphology across the US and of your and across Europe with the eventual founding of
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the American grapho Analysis Society in nineteen twenty nine. I don't know about you.
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I think I would really enjoy being part of some society in that time
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period. Like I want to be part of a group that's got that kind
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of nineteen twenty's namesake, like you know, the American Psychology Society of America
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or something like that. I feel like it just has like a certain ring
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to it, like it's very art deco almost, you know, Like I
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don't know, I just have I feel like it's got like a ring or
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a vibe. Going to be the Bootleggers Society, Yeah, I would love
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that. That would be great. But apparently this caused a little bit of
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a tiff between groups in the graphology world. The formation of the society split
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practitioners between being grapho analysis or holistic graphology, not unlike I would imagine the
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distinction between like medicine as practiced by science based medicine doctors and like holistic and
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natural path type doctors in the United States and other places in the world.
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But anyway, so you might ask the difference between grapho analysis and holistic graphology.
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The difference here is that in grapho analysis, this is a scientific,
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quote unquote scientific system of identifying and assessing the character and personality of an individual
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through a detailed study of their penmanship or handwriting, whatever it might be,
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versus holistic graphology, which is an analysis based on form, movement and use
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of space. At least, that's how they're supposed to be distinguished. Sure,
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calling that one of those scientific is pretty generous. Yeah, And also
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there's still not really a great distinction between the two. I think both of
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them are still trying to do an analysis based on something and come to a
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conclusion based on a thing that is not necessarily related to that thing. Like
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they're trying to determine personality traits based on handwriting, and I don't think that
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that's They're just not really linked and you'll kind of see as we unpack this.
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I think it's also important though, like as we look at graph analysis
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and holistic graphology and kind of their ultimate goal is to figure out what it
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means about you, I think as you listen to this podcast and you listen
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to ads, it's probably important to figure out what that ad says about you
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as well. That one actually kind of works because ads are targeted. So
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if you just receive, if you just received like an AD for like a
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casket or something like that, then Google is sending you a warning. Would
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be my guess. I'll make an argument the ads that you get on the
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show are more scientific than what we're talking about today. I think, so
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I've been getting I don't know about you, but when I listen to podcasts,
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I've been getting a ton of ads about like online casinos, and I'm
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like, really, yeah, And I'm like, I have never used an
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online casino or online gambling in any form, So I'm very confused at why
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I'm getting all these ads lately. I get a lot of Hello Fresh and
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better Help is what I've been getting a lot of, So you know,
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better help is pretty biquitous. I think the pretty much out there. So,
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yeah, all right, why do people want to do this handwriting analysis
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thing? What is it used for? Yeah? So, graphologists argue that
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there are multiple applications for handwriting analyses that can benefit people, and in this
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section we're going to talk about each. Are some of the most common uses
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that you can see so you can kind of see what we're dealing with here
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and what general graphologists that are talking about this this specific type of personality based
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handwriting analysis they're trying to do. So the first is gender differences, So
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they use handwriting analysis to identify gender differences, and it's reported that handwriting analysis
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can be used to accurately identify gender among handwriting samples. Hartly in nineteen ninety
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one proposed that using handwriting analysis, analysts could predict gender anywhere between fifty seven
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and seventy eight percent of opportunities, and this was considered a promising study.
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So give it a choice of two, because that's ultimately in nineteen ninety one,
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they're looking at a choice of two, right, they are not really
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spending a lot of time doing you know, non binary research at the time.
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Absolutely, so given a choice of two, it's a little better than
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a coin flip. Yeah, well, and seventy eight percent would be I
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think enough to say, Okay, like you're close enough that there's probably something
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of accuracy here, but like fifty seven percent is about as wrong as you
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can be. Because, as we've talked about, when you have a choice
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between two things, you're trying to guess of the two, like if you're
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wrong fifty percent of the time, Like, if you're wrong more than fifty
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percent of the time, then it's still predictive, just in the opposite direction.
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If it was like zero percent correct, that means that every time it
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told you it was a female handwriting example, it was a male handruning example.
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Right, that's what zero percent like, And that's reliable enough that you
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could actually use that. Fifty percent means it is a complete random chance,
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like you cannot get actually worse than that. I have specifically gone out of
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my way to show, like I've seen a wide spectrum of penmanship from the
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people that I've worked with, populations that I've served, where like you really
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could not tell sure what like the age, the gender, like it is
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just whatever that person comes to the table with. Right, But anyway,
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so yeah, this this one study. Further analysis found that with a larger
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and more robust sample size, identifying gender was closer to fifty four percent of
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attempts, which, as you said, is effectively a coin flip and as
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wrong as it could possibly be, or at least as useless as it could
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possibly be. Right, So myth one can handwriting analysis identify gender debunked.
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It cannot, so we know that. Now to the second one, employment
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profiles. So, in some companies, handwriting analysis is used to evaluate potential
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employees to see if they can fit a certain employee psychological profile. They pair
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up the handwriting analysis with other data like background screenings or demonstration of skills.
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Eh, I don't know I feel about this. If somebody looks at my
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handwriting, they'd be like, yeah, we're not gonna hire this guy because
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his handwriting is real bad. If your job was to like handwrite notes on
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cards that people would buy so that they could deliver or something like that,
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then I could understand saying like, we need someone with a very specific type
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of penmanship right in handwriting that we're going to use for that job. But
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the vast majority of jobs that is not what is going on here. So
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yeah, but there is the question someone would ask, Well, you can't
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discriminate based on someone's handwriting. So is it illegal to prevent someone's higher due
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to their handwriting and the psychological profile that emerges from that handwriting only if the
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employer determines gender, ethnicity, et cetera from the handwriting and does not hire
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based on that standard. So yes, that it is legal as long as
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it is not discriminatory along other features of someone's right, I guess demographics that
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have been specifically protected by the government. Right, So yeah, no,
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companies can do this. They can. They can do a handwriting analysis determine
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that you are too I don't know, nice or mean or something, or
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that you're likely to be late. They can literally just say your handwriting sucks.
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Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, that is not a thing that's
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that is protected. I thought it was interesting. It's like, yeah,
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they can. They can decide not to hire you based on how bad your
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handwriting is. But they can't say that your handwriting is bad because you're a
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male and you can't work here because of that. Sure, Like that's that's
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the line of they it's you know, it's it's semantics. Now, there's
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some handwriting analysts that say that psychoanalysis is there's an effective there's a use with
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in this area for handwriting analysis. Some counselors or psychotherapists will I have actually
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reported the use or to use this as part of their personality. It's not
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often used in isolation, though, and so a lot of discussions I saw
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on that talked about how they would include that as part of their overall battery
19:07
of assessments. It's just kind of added on top of already practiced and kind
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of scientifically verified tools. So they might do that to kind of get some
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additional insight or maybe kind of raise some additional questions, but they won't do
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that to explicitly diagnose somebody or do therapy based on their handwriting. Speaking of
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doing therapy based on handwriting, there is some use of handwriting that sounded like
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I was teeing up an ad but it wasn't. Not yet, not yet.
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There's some use of handwriting and sort of looking at people trying to assess
19:40
and determine marital compatibility or matchmaking of some sort, used to evaluate everything from
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sexual expression to how the person might affect another person in a relationship. And
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the goal of this is that then a marriage is more likely to endure because
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both partners understand more about each other by doing hand handwriting analysis, not the
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classic way of doing this, which is to spend time with a person and
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get to know that. So I was going to ask, how would you
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match up with your partner based on your handwriting. Well, if the goal
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is simply to understand that our handwriting is very distinct, then we would go
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in without the misconception that we both had nice handwriting. But as far as
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what it tells us about one another, I would think that it would also
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suggest that we were not particularly compatible and less. As they say, opposites
20:32
attract, in which case then we would be same, same, exactly,
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exactly. That's so great. And the final one that they talk about using
20:40
is medical diagnosis, and this one's actually pretty controversial because you know, there
20:42
are very few diagnoses that have handwriting or penmanship specific symptoms, if at all.
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And this is where it gets a little bit dicey. It's technically not
20:52
graphology in the same form as everything else that we've discussed, because they're not
20:56
trying to identify personality traits. What they're trying to look at is degenerative motor
21:00
control or an assessment of motor control to determine motor function and whether not somebody
21:04
has fine or gross motor movement or a degeneration of that. So handwriting is
21:08
analyzed, but it's not analyzed for the sake of identifying somebody's personality. Rather,
21:14
what they're doing, is they're really trying to figure out if this person
21:17
is losing a skill that they've had for some time. I could see there
21:19
be like it's not going to be a clear diagnostic tool, right, but
21:25
it might be a way to look at are we as you said, like,
21:30
do we see the deterioration of a relatively fluent skill that we think should
21:33
not be deteriorating unless there's something medical going on? Right? So I could
21:38
see that that sort of that argument making some amount of sense. And that's
21:44
why it becomes kind of controversial for the graphology folks, because if it's used
21:48
in that context, then it's not used to analyze personality, so it's not
21:52
technically graphology. So like, that's why it becomes kind of a unique argument
21:56
in that space. That's a fair point. It's at that point and time
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it moves out of the space of graphology and moves into the medical field as
22:03
part of like a battery of tests to determine some other issue. I'm good
22:07
with this. Yeah, that makes logical sense to me, me too,
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all right, So what does our handwriting say about us? What does your
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handwriting say about you? Oh? Mine says that I'm not patient I rushed
22:19
through my handwriting. I've learned that I'm apparently very sarcastic through my handwriting,
22:25
which you know, it took my handwriting for me to know that. I
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didn't know that I was sarcastic until I looked at my handwriting from this episode
22:30
and I was like, oh my god, I am the most sarcastic person.
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It's because of my sharp pointed t bars, is what I've learned.
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I see. It's been a little bit of a journey doing this episode.
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I think that my handwriting says that I only write using my non dominant foot,
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so I don't know. I don't know if I shared this with you.
22:49
I feel like it's it's fitting for this not I handwrite my grocery list,
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okay, and I went to the grocery store a couple of weeks ago,
22:56
and I could not read what was on my my my own handwritten grocery
23:00
list. And it took me like thirty minutes to figure out that I'd written
23:03
bananas does the same bananas or gum? I couldn't even hazard a guess to
23:11
what it was. I couldn't even get to gum because I was like,
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I don't have any idea what this is is this buns? Is this?
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I knew there was a B in it, and then I was like,
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oh, okay, it's bananas. Obviously there's bananas. My capital letters are
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all really good. So there you go. If you're listening to this episode,
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you're probably wondering what your handwriting is saying about you, And so we
23:29
wanted to kind of go through this a little bit. I want you to
23:30
take a second to you know, just a quick activity. You can pause
23:33
episode if you want write out something real quick that's got all, or you
23:37
know that maybe like write out a couple sentences so that you can have a
23:41
few different letters and different words and kind of to capture this because I think
23:45
this will be a lot of fun. Abraham, if you can't see,
23:48
for those of you patrons can see, he was skywriting. But if you
23:52
want to write down on paper, that's fine too. So the first thing
23:55
they start analyzing is this idea of slant and slant is used to evaluate the
23:57
emotional expressiveness of the writer. So as the slant moves more vertical, they
24:02
are said to keep their emotions in check. A right slant means that the
24:06
person is very expressive so that means from the bottom it's slanting to the right,
24:08
and a left slant means a person is emotional but won't show it.
24:11
So that's meaning from the bottom slanting to the left, they kind of hide
24:15
their emotions. Ugh. Size, the size of someone's handwriting helps identify how
24:21
much space they had on the page when they were writing. Oh no,
24:22
I'm sorry. It's meant to help identify someone's mindset. Essentially, if they
24:27
write in larger characters, that is representative of how much space they think they
24:32
deserve. But small handwriting indicates concentration and focus or as I said, lack
24:37
of page. So okay, so handlize my handwriting right now, just real
24:41
quick. My slant tells me that I have more of a right slant,
24:45
so I tend to be more expressive. The size of my handwriting is small,
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so I tend to concentrate and focus. But I think I deserve less
24:55
space based on what this is saying mind sets. I don't have any emotions,
24:57
but I think I need lots of space. So you have very big,
25:03
straight handwriting, Yeah, okay, I have very small Like it's almost
25:07
like just be cursive. Yeah, mine is sort of a blend of hieroglyphs
25:11
and scratches. Yeah, it's so fun. I just yeah, it's just
25:17
a bunch of pictures at this point in time. Now there's the signature line.
25:19
So I want to take a second to break this down because I think
25:22
this one's interesting. An extra large capital letter in your name tells people that
25:26
you have lots of confidence and courage. It also, if someone's signature style
25:30
matches the rest of their writing, that person is transparent. If you have
25:33
an unreadable signature, that person is private. So knowing that, what does
25:38
that say about your personality? Abraham, I guess transparent because both versions of
25:42
it just look like, again, a combination of hieroglyphes. Apparently I'm confident.
25:52
You could see the first letters in my name and they're very big,
25:53
but the rest is illegible. So I'm very apparently a very private person based
25:57
on that, Like it looks like scribbles on mine, I'm not very confident.
26:00
I just need a lot of space. Actually, except when I'm signing
26:03
my name, I tend to sign a little bit smaller, so I'm a
26:07
little bit more focused when i'm cursive. Interesting, let's talk about free hand
26:11
writing. Yeah, this is when someone gives you a free hand from the
26:15
more I got three hands. Lined paper is too limiting. When you write
26:19
on unlined paper, it tells you so much more about your personality. And
26:23
upward tilt of your writing is an indicator that you have an optimistic outlook,
26:27
like, oh my god, if your writing begins to slim downward, it
26:30
might be time to get evaluated for depression. And a straight line just means
26:34
you're moving towards your goals in a consistent way. And those are the only
26:37
three. Yeah. I like the idea that like a straight line, if
26:41
you write straight it means you're moving towards your goal. But like in that
26:45
moment, your goal is to write on the paper. So yeah, I
26:48
think anytime I'm adding more words, I'm working towards that goal of writing the
26:52
sentence. Right. Oh so now, I think the most important thing that
26:56
came out of this, though, is the letter T. Now on the
27:00
letter T alone, and there are there are whole analyzes on the letter I,
27:03
whether you dot your eyes, whether you don't cross, there's no eyebars
27:07
and all that stuff. But letter T holds the secret to your personality.
27:10
Oh my goodness. Okay, there are at least at least thirteen different personality
27:15
trait markers that you can identify just from the letter T alone. Okay,
27:19
so long crossbars indicate high enthusiasm, but a tea that looks like a star
27:25
indicates high motivation. If your crossbar on your te ends a sharp point,
27:30
it means that you're sarcastic because you use your pointed wit as a weapon against
27:34
people. It's it's so Abraham. I'm going to send you some aspirin because
27:38
I could tell that this is giving you a headache. This is so spectator,
27:44
I mean through the point where we've I think, unpacked what the what
27:47
the the presumed hypotheses about what handwritting is supposed to tell you about your personality.
27:52
It's just it's so, it's such book is quite smelly, sticky,
28:00
real bullsh much like ads. Okay, we're gonna pontificate on this for just
28:11
a moment, I think to understand, like we need to dig into the
28:15
weeds of this first. As we said, all of the things that we've
28:18
said about what your handwriting says about you and your personality based on nothing.
28:23
Who makes those decisions, Who goes through and gets to determine well, a
28:26
sligh this way means this, and a tilt this way means that, and
28:30
a t this way means this, like just completely made up based on nothing.
28:33
There is no science there, and we'll talk more about why. But
28:37
let's get into a more scientific view of and skeptical view. I think of
28:41
handwriting analysis as it pertains to personality and therefore tangentially to fighting crimes. Right,
28:49
So overall this is handwriting analysis part that we're talking about. What we're
28:52
finding is the field of it is shifting from attempting to identify personality traits towards
28:56
evaluating neurogenitive disorders or does so, like you're kind of seeing this personality thing
29:03
really fall by the wayside. There's not a lot of people who are considered
29:07
analysts in this area who are doing this work like that anymore. What they're
29:11
doing is they're using it. It's kind of a supplemental assessment for these neurogenitative
29:15
disorders. Basically, what happens is as the neurodegenerative disease starts to kind of
29:18
accelerate, changes in handwriting could be evaluated as a sign of the disease's advancement.
29:23
As for research relating to personality. It's scant. Most of the research
29:27
kind of talks about some discussion about proposing future research, but nothing is showing
29:32
up from it. There's not a lot of experiments that could demonstrate causation,
29:36
and there are really just it's kind of disappeared as far as like kind of
29:40
the what we understand of traditional graphology, whether it's holistic or it's kind of
29:45
quote unquote scientific. Well, I surprised. Yeah, there was a study
29:48
Champa and Ananda Kumar in twenty ten presented a proposed methodology for moving handwriting analysis
29:56
to digital processes old graphology. This article isn't an experiment, to be clear,
30:02
but rather discussion on how to remove humans from the analysis process by moving
30:07
towards some automation and computerization that sort of thing. Sure, essentially computers would
30:14
be used to predict human behavior and personality based on handwriting analysis right again,
30:21
and go move away from the subjective human led analysis of penmanship. So it
30:27
was just a proposed model, no experiment, no anything like that, which
30:32
I thought was interesting. But there were some more recent studies that talked about
30:36
kind of looking at those neurodegenerative disorders and diseases that are coming up, and
30:41
so this is where I think we start seeing a little bit more of the
30:42
hard science and actual analysis take place. So Thomas Lnka and Kumar in twenty
30:48
seventeen, it's a different Kumar than the article that we talked about before,
30:52
began to look at some variables related to handwriting, specifically related to the stages
30:56
of Parkinson's disease. Specifically, what they did was they researched micro which is
31:00
an acquired disorder related to small or cramped handwriting. And it kind of as
31:04
nerves in the hands start to degenerate in the arm and kind of the your
31:08
penmanship, what happens as you start like losing a little bit of that in
31:11
your handwriting, it's smaller, cramped, and more illegible. So, rather
31:15
than focusing on global changes in handwriting quality, they actually evaluated specific variables that
31:21
were related to someone's handwriting that included velocity of the writing, fluency and written
31:25
words and this micrographia. And so researchers actually specifically coin the term PD dysgraphia
31:32
Parkinson's disease dysgraphia as a means of distinguish between commonly developed micrographia and degenerated handwriting
31:37
related to Parkins's disease, and they did also cite that using a digitized tablet
31:44
might be a factor in evaluating handwriting due to a history of learning, which
31:48
is important because that is a thing that we need to talk about. Yeah,
31:51
However, the use of a digitized tablet was easier to measure the variables
31:55
listed above because it sort of can automatically quantify and qualify all of those components
32:00
based on pre programmed settings, of course, but it does do it faster
32:02
and more automatically and relatively consistently. Right. I thought that was kind of
32:07
I thought that was kind of cool. I mean, you figure, like
32:08
the generation that is typically exposed or has the issue with Parkins's disease is a
32:14
little bit older, so tablets might not be as kind of part of the
32:16
zeitgeist for them. And so as generations get older, tablets and kind of
32:22
digitized media like that is going to be more commonplace. So that's something that
32:25
is definitely worth considering as part of that day. Stefano at All in twenty
32:30
nineteen actually takes a look at some processes and guidelines for using this type of
32:34
analysis for identifying diseases. So they actually had taken some studies, and they
32:37
looked at a few studies and looked at how the handwriting analysis was evaluated and
32:43
how they could look at specific factors related to those neurodge degenerative diseases, and
32:47
so because they noticed that this was a fairly new line of research, they
32:51
did cite that Morty's research was needed, but they did provide a glimpse of
32:54
what has been done so far and different criterion and different quantifiable variables that were
32:59
really to handwriting in relation to these diseases. They started looking at that and
33:02
starting putting together some guidelines for that, which I thought was good. Got
33:06
it okay? There are a couple things that I would like to spend a
33:09
little time unpacking and how I think it makes it relatively, it's scientific and
33:15
skeptical in understanding what we could possibly learn from handwriting and how it relates to
33:22
things like personality. And I think it helps to understand the variables that affect
33:28
penmanship and handwriting to begin with, and also what personality is, because if
33:32
we just examine those things separately, I think it starts to become pretty clear
33:37
how impossible this task is. Right that they've set up for themselves. Because
33:42
considering the handwriting the penmanship side of things, how does penmanship develop through practice,
33:49
through someone having some kind of writing utensil on their hand and something on
33:52
which to use that writing utensil, through instruction that they may have been given.
33:58
The people who sit and practice and try and make their letters look good
34:00
versus the people whose motivation is to get it over with as quickly as possible.
34:05
The people who work at their penmanship to make it look presentable, legible,
34:10
potentially, to make it look unique, potentially to look highly stylistic.
34:16
They work on their fine motor control. Those are things that are shipped up
34:20
over time that are often going to start as things external to them. People
34:24
who like they might be pressured by their friends like, ew, your handwriting
34:29
is ugly, and so then they feel a need to change it. Or
34:30
your handwriting is beautiful, and so they feel in need to maybe even improve
34:34
it further, or or practice writing it more so that they can recruit more
34:37
opportunities for people to tell them how lovely their handwriting is. A right.
34:43
So many circumstances that go into the amount of time someone spends focusing on building
34:49
up their handwriting that like that by itself is going to be a hugely complex,
34:54
intertwining web of variables that affected just the development of penmanship and handwriting for
35:01
each individual person. And I'm I mean, we're just talking thousands of variables
35:06
that are the right play, including the feed the visual feedback they get from
35:09
producing their own their own penmanship, right, I mean, at the end
35:13
of the day, handwriting in itself is a learned behavior, right, Yes,
35:16
So, like that's really ultimately what it comes down to, handwriting,
35:20
penmanship, all of that penmanship and like the written word is the result of
35:25
a learned behavior. Yes, good point. And we have kind of established
35:30
over time that personality in itself is most of the time just a collection of
35:36
behavioral patterns that we evaluate and kind of look at that are a result of
35:40
long learning histories and kind of like and even then personality is not really useful
35:45
to look at when we're starting to look at these types of behavior outcomes.
35:49
And so I think at the end of the day, equating this learned behavior
35:52
to a type of person is not in any way, shape or form helpful
35:58
like at all. Right, Where I see use in all this stuff is
36:00
like confirming authorship, because if you're looking at historians and archaeological digs and stuff
36:07
like that. I think that might be helpful, but even then that gets
36:08
a little bit tedious. I think using it in the medical model, looking
36:13
at like behavioral deterioration and stuff, I think that is super super valuable,
36:16
super helpful. I think there are uses for this space, but not in
36:22
the way that graphology has been kind of marketed for all these years. I
36:25
think people really like that stuff. I think people really like the insight on
36:30
like who they are as a person. I mean, we just did we
36:31
just recorded an episode on mood rings and just kind of talking about like that
36:36
idea of the insight of just kind of knowing deeper about who you are.
36:40
I think that's kind of intriguing, and the mystery of that as always there,
36:44
just as they from the armchair psychology perspective here. Yeah, this is
36:47
very much reading the tea leaves sort of thing. The way that I kind
36:51
of look at it is this idea of graphology is just it's a forensic equivalent
36:54
to palm reading. To me, that's what this is. Absolutely. It
36:59
focuses on large scoping guesses based on general personality traits or demographic characteristics. It
37:04
does not do the thing that it sets out to do from the identifying personality
37:09
traits perspective. From the other states, we need more research. But from
37:14
that perspective, it doesn't do the thing that people think it does. Yeah,
37:16
and then you sort of alluded to this. But in addition to talking
37:20
about the fact that it is learned, that it has developed over time,
37:22
and that the circumstances around its development are vastly complex and intertwined. I mean,
37:29
you might imagine that associate path and a philanthropist, you know, end
37:35
up at the same as children, the same place for learning their handwriting,
37:39
and might have very similar handwriting and very different personalities because they just happen to
37:45
be taught by someone who like used a particular style right and having them practice
37:49
their penmanship, you know, not that there's a lot of specific penmanship or
37:53
handwriting schools that people do, but like people do get some kind of instruction
37:58
and feedback in that sort of thing. That is a really important consideration there.
38:01
And another one is that our our penmanship evolves over time. As we
38:05
get older and as we change, we are not going to be writing consistently.
38:08
Even people who have who spend time having nice penmanship. It will change
38:13
and shift over time, sure, and people for those of us who are
38:15
disfluent in their penmanship, such as myself, like it will change from letter
38:20
to letter, from word to word in a single paragraph. I'm like trying
38:23
out different styles still at this age, to find what, you know,
38:29
how I like to write something, how I like to form the letter,
38:30
how I feel like it needs to be spaced out in that sort of thing.
38:35
So it's it's it's an evolving thing that changes. There's also like the
38:39
medical side of things, as you said, is if you had some kind
38:43
of neurodegenerative disease like Parkinson's, like that will affect it. If you have
38:46
arthritis, if you're cold, if you have like a writing implement that doesn't
38:52
work very well and you're having to press harder, or you know, you
38:54
know, try to shake it to get incout or something. If you have
38:58
an acquired traumatic brain inur, then that's going to drastically I mean, like
39:01
think about that, like like, okay, so now you have this head
39:05
injury that is going to change the way that you write entirely because you've lost
39:08
all of your motor skills. That doesn't mean that your entire personality has changed
39:13
or you're a different person. It just simply means that you have lost an
39:15
actual skill based on the fact that your brain suffered a significant injury. So
39:22
I think it's really fascinating to be like, Okay, this person is different
39:23
because they have an injury. It's like, well, maybe they have mood
39:25
swings, or maybe they have you know, other things that have happened as
39:29
a result of that head injury. It doesn't mean that they're a different person.
39:31
It's still Abraham with the head injury or Shane with the head injury.
39:35
It's still this person. So I always found like that part of it fascinating
39:37
too. It's like, okay, so because somebody hit their head a little
39:40
bit too hard, now all of a sudden, they're an entirely different person.
39:44
I don't really buy that to that level. And then there's also I
39:46
think looking at the circumstance, the circumstance of like are you writing to communicate
39:52
with another person or are you writing a note for yourself? Are you in
39:55
a hurry or do you have time? Are you writing for a like particular
40:00
thing, Like you're writing, like, you know, a sign to get
40:04
someone's attention. Versus your writing to jot down an idea, like, all
40:08
of those things will affect your your penmanship as well. So we've got you
40:12
know, your learning history, your medical condition, your immediate prevailing circumstances,
40:19
and then we talk about things like personality, which, as you said,
40:21
is just like things that we tend to do, right, right, personality
40:24
seems to just refer to like things that we tend to do, and that
40:29
is extremely dynamic and not at all static and will change again moment to moment
40:34
because it's largely you as you're learning history sort of shapes you do build momentum
40:38
around certain habits and that sort of thing, but any variable can throw a
40:43
wrench in the mix and completely alter something that you used to do one way
40:45
that you now do completely differently. Understanding that personality is also this thing that's
40:51
in development that's based on your circumstances, that's based on your learning history,
40:54
and has to do with overall patterns and like trends and what you might expect
40:59
someone to do in a situation like trying to then superimpose that system of someone's
41:06
personality. A thing that we can barely define and that we know essentially is
41:10
this loose, dynamic set of maybe's sure on top of an evolving set of
41:15
penmanship skills, and then trying to say that like the way that you wrote
41:21
your eye tells you something about Like we're basically presuming that whatever the thing is
41:27
that's developing in terms of your personality, your learning history, your circumstances,
41:30
your brain, your medical conditions, is now also glimpsible through your penmanship of
41:36
all things. I mean, penmanship is a behavior, and therefore it is
41:39
a thing that you do and therefore does have tendencies. But trying to like
41:44
look at that as like the bubbling to the surface, to like this is
41:47
where we're going to glimpse someone's personality through their penmanship, to me is a
41:52
so I mean, this is dozens of leaps of assumption interpretation of like playing
41:59
fast and loose with the idea that those things are closely enough related that we
42:02
could draw any kind of meaningful connection between one and the other. It's tedious.
42:07
It's tenuous at best, is what I meant to say. Like best
42:10
case scenario, like you're gonna get maybe in the same continent, right,
42:16
Like you're not even gonna get in a ballpark. You're gonna get in the
42:19
same continent making that decision or like making those those interpretations, like that is
42:24
the closest that you're going to get to using this. You might get lucky
42:28
every now and again, but ultimately, like, none of it matters,
42:31
right, I mean, nothing really matters. If you want to get into
42:34
it. Nothing really matters. And we can recognize that maybe I'm having an
42:37
existential crisis right now. But at the end of all of this, my
42:42
point is more so that it's not as useful as people think it is.
42:45
And I think that's kind of where I land on all that it fundamentally can't
42:50
do what it says that it does. It can't like right, I think
42:53
if you understand anything about how what personality is and how it works, and
42:58
understand anything about petmanship and how it develops, those two things just do not
43:02
predict one another and any level of clarity that means anything to anybody. That
43:08
being said, I think if you know someone well enough, you learn to
43:14
read the little like mannerisms and things that show up that I think reveals something
43:21
about sort of where they're at presently that if you know someone really well,
43:25
you might actually be able to tell from many different products of their behavior,
43:30
what kind of sort of mood they're in. I mean, just the rapidity
43:35
at which someone answers a question might tell you a lot about that person.
43:38
If you know that person well right, you're like, oh, when they
43:42
answer fast, they're upset, or when they answer fast they're excited, or
43:45
you know whatever. It might be any little mannerism or thing you can interpret.
43:50
And so to those people, they might even be able to read someone's
43:53
penmanship, assuming that they read their handwriting often enough to be able to draw
43:58
in conclusions about it and have a little bit more inside about it. But
44:01
these broad strokes terms of like a pointed tee or a slanted letter, or
44:07
a star like t or a dot over the eye, those are not going
44:10
to tell you something about someone without already knowing a lot about that person.
44:15
And even then, Tenuous exactly couldn't have said it better myself. Pooh,
44:20
well, that's more of my voice than most people want or deserve in their
44:22
lifetime. Let's take a quick advertisement break and then we can we can take
44:28
this home. Sounds good, all right, So let's set some take on
44:37
points here. Yeah, you know, handwriting analyzes aren't used to identify personality
44:43
for a few reasons. We've kind of extrapolated on that a little bit.
44:45
It's often used as an additional evaluation and not a primary assess but at this
44:49
point in time, and it's a pseudoscience. I mean, what we're talking
44:52
about here, when we're talking about identifying personality based on handwriting, it's a
44:54
pseudoscience. Yeah, And I kind of already explained it before, is that
44:58
the use of this is the equivalent of forensic palm reading, Like it doesn't
45:01
really do the things that it thinks it does because it's just using sweeping generalizations
45:07
and demographic information to make large scale assumptions, not necessarily enough about that specific
45:14
person. Yeah. The closest thing that we can get to having a functional
45:17
handwrunning analysis process is to help determine authorship. But even then it's fairly spotty
45:22
if we can't even determine like a gender of somebody, which again unpacking a
45:29
huge can of worms in terms of what that even could possibly mean. You
45:32
know, we've talked about gender on this show. We understand that gender is
45:36
a dynamic, socially constructed thing, right, but when they break it down
45:39
into a binary and can't even do that much let alone try to tell what
45:44
handwriting belongs to a person or what their penmanship says about their personality. I
45:49
mean, it's moved so far beyond the realm of plausible or making any amount
45:52
of sense that it's it's kind of laughable, really, right, And I
45:57
think that like maybe it's worth doing like a little bit more of a deep
46:00
dive on how this relates to forensic handwriting analysis, and like even dig into
46:05
a story where this has failed or even where it's you know, they've got
46:07
lucky and where it's worked. But I think just saying that, in terms
46:12
of using this as a tool to understand someone's personality, it does not do
46:15
that thing is bad at it right exactly. At the end of the day,
46:20
people's handwriting is so varied and so different that like there's just no way
46:23
to come up with a standard. And I mean there are handwriting analyses in
46:27
different languages as well, especially languages that are not like Latin based, you
46:30
know, when you have like something like different types of languages that use symbols
46:35
versus like specific letters, Like there are handwriting analyses in those spaces, but
46:38
again they're just kind of not quite the same, right, It doesn't have
46:43
the same analysis. Yes, absolutely. Do you have anything to add before
46:46
we sort of wrap up here and give our recommendations. No, I feel
46:52
like this is another pseudoscience we have debunked, so you shouldn't see it anymore
46:55
because we have done We have done God's work in getting part of the thing.
47:00
Yeah, the world is effectively altered by our podcast episodes. Yeah,
47:06
yeah, case. No, we are going to get to some recommendations.
47:09
But in the meantime, if you would like to support the show, you
47:12
can leave a rating and review, subscribe, tell a friend, you know,
47:15
follow us on Spotify if that's where you listen to us. You can
47:19
pick up some merch you know. If you like to tell us about your
47:22
experiences with handwriting analysis and personality or even forensic han running analysis, you can
47:27
email us directly at info at wwdwwdpodcast dot com. I'll reach out to us
47:31
on the social media platforms at WWDWWD podcast. If you do join us on
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Patreon, you get extra perks and benefits, such as you get early releases
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of episodes, you can add free episodes, other back sort of behind the
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scenes content and the group of people that do that that we also like to
47:46
shout out for all of their generosity. Includes Mike m Megan, Leyla,
47:51
Mike T, Justin, Kim, Joshua, Brad, Stephanie, Olivia,
47:54
Brian, and Ashley. Thank you all so much. You are just amazing
47:58
and we really appreciate you and anyone you can you can be on that list,
48:01
you can help join them or as little or as much as you would
48:06
like, and all of it helps us out. So if you can even
48:07
spare a dollar a month, you can join the cool Kids Club over here.
48:10
Yep is what I'm deciding to call it right now, the coolest kids,
48:14
that's right. In addition, I must thank my team running in fact
48:16
checking from Shane and myself, music editing and other overall sound production comes from
48:22
Justin and our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson. But before I think we
48:28
wrap up, I think that we are going to share some recommendations. Yay
48:38
recommendations. So I'm going to recommend something I never thought I would recommend ever
48:44
in my life. I am personally not a fan of musicals. I do
48:46
not like them. I think that they are exhausting. I don't know why,
48:51
I just that's just some personal thing that I've had an issue with but
48:54
recently I went on a trip to New York and I got to see a
48:59
lot of musical on Broadway, and let me tell you, it was so
49:04
fun. Wow. The production was really great. A lot of really cool
49:07
like stage magic, Like there's a lot of really fun stuff with that.
49:09
The genie was incredible, just like the guy that played him. His name
49:14
is Michael James Scott, absolutely incredible, Michael Scott. Michael Scott. Yeah,
49:20
he well, you know, speaking of George Foreman, and he was
49:22
limping around because he did burn his foot on a George for mcgrill getting out
49:25
of bed. He was so many connections right now, I know, so
49:30
wild. But Michael James Scott plays a genie. He's really great. They
49:32
do some really cool like clothing, magic and stuff. It's like real,
49:36
you know, the quick the quick change outfits. The guy that plays Aladdin,
49:38
Michael maliakel. I believe this is how you pronounce his name. Really
49:42
good. Aladdin, great singer, a lot of fun Sonya and Balsara is
49:46
Jasmine. She's really great in it. And then you've got they change a
49:51
couple of the elements of the story you had don Darryl Rivera, who plays
49:53
Iago, and Iago is a person, not a parrot, and they kind
49:58
of make jokes and references to that in the story as well. It was
50:01
a really cool kind of reimagining of Aladdin, and it was a lot of
50:05
fun and a lot of really interesting kind of visual jokes to go along with
50:08
it. It was really great. It was such a great experience and I
50:10
would absolutely go and see a show on Broadway again because of it. Oh
50:15
fun, that's awesome. Yeah. I tend to feel similarly about musicals mostly.
50:19
I feel like when it feels like they're shoehorning song into things that either
50:23
don't drive the plot or drive the plot way too much, it just feels
50:30
unnecessary. But I've seen some great musicals. Yeah. I thought Hairspray was
50:32
really good. I thought Book of Mormon was really good. So I think
50:36
it all just depends on the musical. But I tend to not seek them
50:40
out, but I have seen some good ones, so yeah, that's fair.
50:44
All right, Aladdin the musical on Broadway. That's your recommendation. I'm
50:46
recommending a movie that I am probably the last person to see, so I
50:51
probably don't need to recommend it because everyone here has seen it, maybe more
50:53
than once. This is the Barbie movie that came out this year. This
50:58
was just a fad this movie. Again, everyone's seen it, so I
51:00
don't need to explain. But it's got this surreal, over the top quality
51:05
to it. The acting and directing was just fantastic. It's a little bit
51:07
cartoonish and like and silly, but also very real and a lot of human
51:15
emotion. I think, a lot of commentary on sort of the world and
51:19
our culture and society that was done beautifully. Like, even if you weren't
51:22
there for the commentary, it's still just a great movie to watch. Yeah,
51:25
it's really funny. The deliveries are really good. They're both really subtle
51:30
and overt, and everyone just absolutely crushed it in their role. Fantastic directing,
51:35
set designs, costumes. It was just really really and so many little
51:37
easter eggy things. I think a lot of people that I didn't didn't certainly
51:42
didn't catch them all, but I caught a few here and there, but
51:45
in little aesthetic touches that I think were really impressively well done. So they
51:47
really thought this movie out well and did a great job. Yeah, they
51:51
did a great job. With it. One of my favorite like facts about
51:53
the movie is that they caused a worldwide pink shortage because of the amount of
52:00
pink paint they used, And it like they caused a worldwide shortage as a
52:04
result of this movie. So I thought that was fun. As I said,
52:07
I was the last person to see it. Everyone ahead, anyway.
52:12
I think it's all we have to say about Barbie or a Laddin. As
52:14
I said, please email us, reach out to us on social media.
52:16
We look forward to hearing from all of you. If you haven't reached out
52:20
to us before, you should give it a shot because we are here for
52:22
it. Yeah. I think it's always so much to everybody who listened.
52:24
Thank you for recording with me today. Shane. Is there anything that I
52:28
forgot or that you would like to add before we wrap up? No,
52:30
I think that covers it. Okay, poo poo, handwriting, analysis,
52:35
judgment from why we do what we do, disapprove, Ah. I can't
52:39
wait to get that stamp in the mail. I ordered it earlier, so
52:42
it should be on the way all right. Anyway, I think that's it.
52:45
So this is Abraham, this is Shane. We're out see it.
52:49
You've been listening to Why we do what we do. You can learn more
52:52
about this and other episodes by going to WWD WWD podcast dot com. Thanks
52:58
for listening, and I hope you have an awesome guy.