Latest / Wired To Hunt Podcast / Ep. 1035: Inside the Mind of a 50-Year Michigan Bowhunter

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Ep. 1035: Inside the Mind of a 50-Year Michigan Bowhunter · Wired To Hunt Podcast

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to
0:04
Speaker 1: the Whitetail Woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile
0:09
Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light
0:13
Speaker 1: Go farther, stay longer, and now your host Mark Kenyon.
0:19
Speaker 2: What is going on? Welcome back to Wired to Hunt.
0:21
Speaker 2: This is Jake Hofer and this week we have Jake
0:23
Speaker 2: Ellinger with Habitat Solutions three sixty covering a wide cambit
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Speaker 2: of conversation here today. Jake has been hunting for over
0:32
Speaker 2: fifty years. He's been working on the same property for
0:35
Speaker 2: forty five years, and you could hear about all the
0:37
Speaker 2: impactful projects that have paid off over many years and
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Speaker 2: how he would start over today if he had to.
0:45
Speaker 2: Wired Hunt is presented by Multrie. I hope you guys
0:47
Speaker 2: enjoyed this discussion. Jake has seen Michigan change over the years,
0:51
Speaker 2: and we talk about some of the current events in
0:53
Speaker 2: the state of Michigan towards the end of this episode,
0:55
Speaker 2: so I.
0:55
Speaker 3: Hope you guys enjoy it.
0:56
Speaker 2: Here we go, Jake, Welcome to Wired to Hunt. How's
1:04
Speaker 2: it going?
1:05
Speaker 4: What's going pretty good? Jake? Thanks for having me.
1:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, my pleasure, My pleasure. I think we were just talking.
1:12
Speaker 2: You have been working on the same farm for forty
1:15
Speaker 2: five years, which is a really really long time. And
1:20
Speaker 2: how long have you been hunting in the state of
1:23
Speaker 2: Michigan and what, like how much has it changed to Oh.
1:27
Speaker 4: Jeez, you know, I started bol hunting deer. I'm thinking when.
1:34
Speaker 5: I was twelve years old, so we'll say fifty plus
1:40
Speaker 5: years ago.
1:41
Speaker 4: You know, I'm in my seventies, so anybody can do
1:44
Speaker 4: the math. Okay, wow, wow, and so and that was
1:50
Speaker 4: so different.
1:52
Speaker 2: What were some of the key things, like from even
1:55
Speaker 2: even with like let's say your early twenties Michigan landscape
2:00
Speaker 2: to twenty twenty six, Like, what are some of the
2:02
Speaker 2: biggest changes that you've witnessed over your lifetime?
2:06
Speaker 5: You know, Number one, you know, the deer density really
2:11
Speaker 5: really big change.
2:12
Speaker 4: You know.
2:12
Speaker 5: I grew up in a small game hunting family and
2:16
Speaker 5: we were a big pheasant you know, a squirrel, rabbit,
2:19
Speaker 5: duck hunters kind of thing.
2:21
Speaker 4: And one of the reasons was there were very few deer.
2:24
Speaker 4: So when I was like, you know, eight to ten.
2:29
Speaker 5: Years old, it was kind of rare if you were
2:32
Speaker 5: up pheasant hunting to jump a deer and oh my gosh,
2:35
Speaker 5: if you saw them with antlers.
2:36
Speaker 4: That was that made the newspaper.
2:39
Speaker 5: In that part of the state where you know, where
2:41
Speaker 5: I live, because at one time the numbers had really
2:45
Speaker 5: gotten you know, trimmed way way back, and everybody that
2:49
Speaker 5: was a deer hunter that you know, my grandpa's friends
2:52
Speaker 5: and my dad's friends, everybody went quote up north, you know,
2:56
Speaker 5: which was north of here three four hours where there
2:59
Speaker 5: was a lot more or uh you know woods Is,
3:02
Speaker 5: and uh yeah, it was just a totally different thing.
3:07
Speaker 4: But I you know, I love deer, and I thought
3:09
Speaker 4: i'd try.
3:09
Speaker 5: It with a bow and had had some acquaintances, you know,
3:14
Speaker 5: uncle's friends that were bowl hunters that you know, taught
3:17
Speaker 5: me how to shoot a bow and stuff like that.
3:20
Speaker 5: And of course I ran around shot frogs and chipmunks
3:23
Speaker 5: and stuff like that when I was a kid.
3:25
Speaker 4: Yeah.
3:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, what what roughly time frame did you notice the
3:31
Speaker 2: deer density was drastically increasing in Michigan? And I guess
3:36
Speaker 2: was there an inflection point or a period of time
3:38
Speaker 2: where everyone's like, holy cow, I can't believe how many
3:40
Speaker 2: deer there are, and then you know, has just continued
3:42
Speaker 2: to compound.
3:44
Speaker 5: It was in that the first the first big change
3:48
Speaker 5: was in at late sixties mid seventies time frame, and
3:53
Speaker 5: what happened is there was a deer Uh they moved deer.
3:57
Speaker 5: They trapped deer from different parts of Michigan and brought
4:00
Speaker 5: them into southern Michigan and released them. All the time
4:04
Speaker 5: they were doing that, they never admitted, oh no, we're
4:06
Speaker 5: not doing that. And there were you know, people that
4:08
Speaker 5: literally saw them, you know, at night, stop a big truck,
4:11
Speaker 5: open up the back tailgate and all these deer went
4:13
Speaker 5: running out.
4:14
Speaker 4: But now there's actually a book where they've they they've
4:17
Speaker 4: wrote that, yeah, this is what we did, and you know,
4:20
Speaker 4: now the management team admits that was part of the process.
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Speaker 5: So I remember as a teenager getting up one morning,
4:30
Speaker 5: we had pear trees in our front Yeah, you know,
4:33
Speaker 5: three great, big old paar trees and you know, always
4:36
Speaker 5: a mess in the fall.
4:37
Speaker 4: So we you know, this is.
4:39
Speaker 5: Early spring, like late March, early April, and we get
4:43
Speaker 5: up and we look out the windows and there's like
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Speaker 5: fifteen sixteen deer in our front yard eating all these
4:47
Speaker 5: pairs that were under the trees. And you know that
4:49
Speaker 5: it was through the winter, so it was early season,
4:51
Speaker 5: but still a lot of pairs that drop, and that
4:54
Speaker 5: was just something you never saw them. We stepped outside
4:56
Speaker 5: and the deer just stood there looking at us, and
4:58
Speaker 5: that just never happened.
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Speaker 4: It was like, Okay, they must have opened up a
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Speaker 4: truck last night right out here somewhere, and yeah, you
5:07
Speaker 4: know so uh yeah, so so that was a big change.
5:11
Speaker 5: You know, we noticed real quickly we went from having
5:15
Speaker 5: it be really rare to see deer to being able
5:17
Speaker 5: to see deer. And you know how quickly they multiply
5:21
Speaker 5: when uh, you know, when the habitat is good and
5:23
Speaker 5: the resources are not limited. So you know, in five
5:27
Speaker 5: or six years, we went from you know, seeing some
5:31
Speaker 5: deer seeing lots of deer.
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Speaker 2: What do you know what that book is called, the
5:35
Speaker 2: one where they talk about that.
5:37
Speaker 4: I don't. I can remember. I've seen it advertised online.
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Speaker 5: I think if you search, you know, put put some
5:44
Speaker 5: keywords in the title under your search, that would come up.
5:50
Speaker 5: I'm wondering, you're you're you're looking right.
5:53
Speaker 3: Now, I'm trying to find it. That would be.
5:58
Speaker 5: Remember seeing that, uh discussed on social media and like
6:02
Speaker 5: YouTube videos other people. So yeah, it's it's out there.
6:06
Speaker 5: I guess I never personally grabbed it myself.
6:10
Speaker 2: I should do you do you recall why they did
6:15
Speaker 2: not say that they were releasing there was that like against.
6:18
Speaker 4: A Yeah, I I don't know why. You know, it's
6:24
Speaker 4: like a lot of things.
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Speaker 5: You know, certain game agencies really don't want to level
6:30
Speaker 5: with the public what they're doing, you know, all the
6:36
Speaker 5: way till today.
6:38
Speaker 2: Right now, that's that's pretty fascinating. Okay, So it's it's
6:42
Speaker 2: spring now, and it's it's May, and depending on what
6:46
Speaker 2: part of the country you're in, uh, spring food plots
6:49
Speaker 2: or top of mind and something I want to dive
6:53
Speaker 2: a little bit deeper than just you know, the traditional
6:56
Speaker 2: what you can plan in the spring, but I think
6:58
Speaker 2: how you shape your plots or the architecture or all
7:02
Speaker 2: the additional thought processes to make a food plot better
7:07
Speaker 2: beyond of what you plant and how you take care
7:08
Speaker 2: of it and you know, fertilize soil and everything else.
7:11
Speaker 2: What have you noticed over you know, all of your
7:14
Speaker 2: experience over the years and forty five years of experimenting
7:17
Speaker 2: on your own farm, what have you noticed makes an
7:21
Speaker 2: impact on the actual architecture of a food plot. And
7:25
Speaker 2: I know I have an engineering mindset too, So that's
7:27
Speaker 2: a great question for you.
7:29
Speaker 5: It is you know, and I've really gotten into playing
7:32
Speaker 5: with crating edges inside of food plots by growing different
7:36
Speaker 5: forages that grow higher.
7:39
Speaker 4: Okay, you know, you can grow.
7:42
Speaker 5: You know, particular soybeans, or you can grow sorghum, or
7:45
Speaker 5: you can grow milo. You can grow corn alongside something
7:50
Speaker 5: else and create that definitive edge.
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Speaker 4: And gosh, probably a dozen.
7:55
Speaker 5: Years or so ago, I was one of the one
7:58
Speaker 5: of the early things that was very successful was going
8:02
Speaker 5: into my soybean fields in the late August and mowing
8:07
Speaker 5: paths through the soybeans, you know, destroying the soybeans, of course,
8:11
Speaker 5: but these paths were narrow, like three to four feet wide,
8:13
Speaker 5: and then I'd overseed them with annuals like crimson clover
8:17
Speaker 5: and winter rye and stuff like that. So by the
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Speaker 5: time the soybeans turned yellow and it got to October first,
8:23
Speaker 5: and that's about when soybeans have turned yellow and starting
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Speaker 5: to get brown. Now I've got those paths, you know,
8:29
Speaker 5: thanks to rain, where the crimson clover in the rye
8:32
Speaker 5: has germinated, and so I've got this green trail that
8:35
Speaker 5: winds through the soybeans. And you know, as easy as
8:39
Speaker 5: it is for deer to meander around through a soybean field.
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Speaker 5: It really surprised me how easily they follow that path
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Speaker 5: and just.
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Speaker 4: Walk right down in that green path right now on
8:49
Speaker 4: the edge of the soybeans, right out in front of
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Speaker 4: my night blind or my stand.
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Speaker 2: I'm just picturing a rectangle food plot. You know, maybe
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Speaker 2: someone has two acres of beans that are already planted,
9:02
Speaker 2: or we'll be planning here in the next thirty days,
9:04
Speaker 2: forty five days, and so you know, obviously most people
9:08
Speaker 2: have a stand location or a blind out of food source.
9:11
Speaker 2: Are you making like a U Are you making a sea?
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Speaker 2: Are you making a couple of intersections that lead into
9:16
Speaker 2: in front of that hounting location?
9:18
Speaker 3: I mean, how walk us through? How you yeah? So decided?
9:22
Speaker 5: Imagine basically kind of a square with a couple of
9:26
Speaker 5: you know, divots in it, and uh, in the southeast corner,
9:32
Speaker 5: I've got a red cedar tree that's about twenty five
9:36
Speaker 5: twenty to twenty five yards from each from the south
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Speaker 5: and the east border, Okay, and then right in that
9:41
Speaker 5: southeast corner, I've got my blind that's set up for
9:44
Speaker 5: using northwest wind. And also, you know, knew a lot
9:47
Speaker 5: about the property and knew generally where most of.
9:50
Speaker 4: The deer entered. So what I would do is go
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Speaker 4: to the northwest corner and the direct north corner and
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Speaker 4: moa path to that cedar tree and kind of mo
10:00
Speaker 4: a circle around that cedar tree, and that put those
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Speaker 4: deer right at that, you know, twenty to twenty five
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Speaker 4: yards from where my blind was. And some years I'd
10:10
Speaker 4: do two paths, some years I'd do three paths, but
10:13
Speaker 4: they all converged on that tree because there was a
10:15
Speaker 4: lot of scraping activity under that red cedar.
10:18
Speaker 5: You know, and I'm sure you've seen that a lot
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Speaker 5: of a lot of places over the years. You know,
10:22
Speaker 5: if there's a red cedar tree in the right location,
10:24
Speaker 5: there's a lot of scrapes and rubbing takes place. So yeah,
10:29
Speaker 5: that's you know, I converge those deer to that tree,
10:33
Speaker 5: and it worked really really good. And then you know
10:36
Speaker 5: what to say, Well, you know, because I had success
10:39
Speaker 5: with that, but it's limited success. There's no doubt that
10:42
Speaker 5: as the season goes by and the deer stout browsing
10:45
Speaker 5: and piling into that bean field more, that edge kind
10:50
Speaker 5: of gets knocked down because the deer activity and the feeding,
10:53
Speaker 5: you know, and beans are once they get frosted and
10:55
Speaker 5: mature they are, and all that stout.
10:57
Speaker 4: You know, they bend over pretty easy and that sort
10:59
Speaker 4: of thing.
11:00
Speaker 5: So then I started planting kind of like pinch points
11:04
Speaker 5: with the annual sorghum, and nowadays I plant it with
11:09
Speaker 5: the Mscantis grass and the same thing. You know, two
11:12
Speaker 5: rows of mscant Dis grass from the north side of
11:14
Speaker 5: that plot that runs out fifty sixty yards and stops
11:18
Speaker 5: twenty five yards in my blind. It produces like a
11:21
Speaker 5: structural cover the deer feel good with.
11:24
Speaker 4: And they've got edges.
11:25
Speaker 5: And then you know how how bucks are and those
11:29
Speaker 5: two they know they're kind of path at least resistance.
11:32
Speaker 5: So I'll just rather than you know, try and weave
11:35
Speaker 5: through that Mescanthus grass, They'll just walk out in the
11:38
Speaker 5: field and go around that point.
11:39
Speaker 4: You know, I'll put you right at twenty yards from
11:42
Speaker 4: the blind.
11:44
Speaker 2: When you're when you're pinting like a picturing, what are
11:49
Speaker 2: the how much are you allocating to beans and sorghum
11:52
Speaker 2: In that example too, where you mentioned like almost creating
11:55
Speaker 2: different interior edge within the food plots by switching the
11:59
Speaker 2: speed of what you're planning, what does that look like?
12:04
Speaker 5: You know, I just got done working on a really
12:06
Speaker 5: cool project a year ago and it worked so awesome.
12:11
Speaker 5: And it was a total of about three acres of
12:14
Speaker 5: an area I had allocated to plant food, and I
12:18
Speaker 5: had an existing switchgrass finger that ran through their dividing line.
12:23
Speaker 5: You know, imagine again about approximately a square three acres
12:27
Speaker 5: and the northern one third was divided by about a
12:31
Speaker 5: twenty foot wide strip of caven rock switchgrass, and I
12:35
Speaker 5: had two openings in there that deer that came from
12:37
Speaker 5: a bedding area north of there would enter that first
12:40
Speaker 5: one third of the plot, move around feet, and then
12:43
Speaker 5: they'd walk up to those openings to enter say this,
12:46
Speaker 5: you know, the last two thirds of the plot.
12:49
Speaker 4: And then within that.
12:50
Speaker 5: That southern two thirds, I would designate areas for milo
12:56
Speaker 5: and sorghum and corn, and I'd make sure the edges
12:59
Speaker 5: of the corn and we're beneficial with the deer movement
13:03
Speaker 5: that I knew.
13:04
Speaker 4: They liked to utilize.
13:06
Speaker 5: For certain winds, I would hunt that and you know,
13:09
Speaker 5: I had strip of corn on the right side and
13:11
Speaker 5: the strip of milo on the left side, separated by
13:14
Speaker 5: fifty yards of open soybeans. Okay, And the way they
13:17
Speaker 5: used both those edges was just man. I mean it
13:20
Speaker 5: worked just to a t okay. And of course the
13:23
Speaker 5: deer go into the milo, and they also go into
13:26
Speaker 5: the beans and the corn, and so the whole field
13:30
Speaker 5: would be drilled in beans, and then I'd come back
13:33
Speaker 5: and drill the corn real strategically in the direction I
13:37
Speaker 5: wanted it, come back and drill the milo strategically in
13:40
Speaker 5: the directions I wanted it to create the edge. And
13:43
Speaker 5: sometimes you know, with the beans and corn, you can
13:46
Speaker 5: use the same herba side, but I switched over to
13:48
Speaker 5: the milo. I had to use, you know, a different
13:50
Speaker 5: herb side, and a whole different process, you know, pre
13:52
Speaker 5: emergent versus post emerging, that sort of stuff.
13:56
Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean, you know, and.
13:58
Speaker 5: There's a real big difference between forage heights. You know,
14:01
Speaker 5: when you look at corn, it's typically you know, seven
14:04
Speaker 5: eight feet tall or taller, and then you've got soy
14:07
Speaker 5: beans that are more like waist high to you know,
14:09
Speaker 5: belly button eye, that type of thing. But it really,
14:14
Speaker 5: you know, if you were to see the layout of it,
14:16
Speaker 5: how I had everything kind of slowly pinched down as
14:21
Speaker 5: those edges got closer to where my blind is. So
14:24
Speaker 5: you can imagine a big funnel that I made.
14:27
Speaker 2: How much how much of a factor does that increase
14:30
Speaker 2: your odds?
14:30
Speaker 3: In your opinion?
14:31
Speaker 2: For someone's like, man, that kind of sounds like a
14:32
Speaker 2: lot of work. I don't really know if I want
14:35
Speaker 2: to do that. I mean, on paper, it seems like
14:36
Speaker 2: it would rastically increase your archery opportunities. Whether it's the
14:41
Speaker 2: you know, the transition of a wall so you know,
14:45
Speaker 2: or all these different things.
14:46
Speaker 4: It has to help a ton, It helps an awful lot.
14:50
Speaker 5: And you know, there's a certain segment in this habitat world,
14:54
Speaker 5: but looks at that it says, oh, man, that's a
14:56
Speaker 5: lot of work.
14:56
Speaker 4: I just want to go out there and plant.
14:58
Speaker 5: I don't want to have to worry about changing her
15:00
Speaker 5: sides or running my rows for my corn planter in
15:04
Speaker 5: this direction, you know, because it just seems, you know,
15:08
Speaker 5: to them, they go, I can't see the see the
15:10
Speaker 5: worthiness of it. But if you take say two and
15:13
Speaker 5: a half to three acres of an open field, you know,
15:16
Speaker 5: of soybeans or whether it's milow, especially here in the
15:20
Speaker 5: wonderful Mitten State, we know that mature deer aren't exactly
15:24
Speaker 5: real happy about going into wide open fields and feeding. Okay,
15:28
Speaker 5: especially kind of mature deer. I'm trying to hunt other guys.
15:32
Speaker 5: So by creating that edge of cover, it's actually you know,
15:35
Speaker 5: I mean it becomes you know, almost like stem density
15:39
Speaker 5: in a you know, TSI arrangement. Okay, now I've got
15:44
Speaker 5: corn that they can enter, and they've got that edge
15:48
Speaker 5: and they can step out of the corn or walk
15:50
Speaker 5: right down the edge of the corn where it transitions
15:53
Speaker 5: from all soy means to now so it means and corn.
15:57
Speaker 5: And it's a it's a big deal watching how these
16:02
Speaker 5: older deer, including older dose if you're trying to you know,
16:05
Speaker 5: archery kill some older does how they'll work that edge
16:08
Speaker 5: because they want to be literally one step from cover. Okay,
16:12
Speaker 5: if something's you know, coyote shows up or another deer,
16:15
Speaker 5: or they get a whiff of a human, they want.
16:17
Speaker 4: Boom, you know, disappear real quick.
16:20
Speaker 5: Where I do know from previous years of managing that
16:25
Speaker 5: ground under a CRP program, where was all kind of
16:29
Speaker 5: a monoculture. Even though I had diversity in there, the
16:32
Speaker 5: deer used it radically different and my archery opportunities were
16:36
Speaker 5: really limited.
16:38
Speaker 4: And I'll say, you know, last year, it you know it,
16:42
Speaker 4: it just it was a total game changer, and especially
16:46
Speaker 4: for you know, and that's where I killed my you know,
16:49
Speaker 4: the best buck I killed on this property and that
16:51
Speaker 4: exact same planting arrangement I put together.
16:54
Speaker 2: I think that brings up another another point with CRP.
17:01
Speaker 2: I think it's it's it's great. I've utilized it. It's
17:03
Speaker 2: a good way to get income on marginal farm ground.
17:07
Speaker 2: And obviously there's stipulations that come with c RP. Overall
17:13
Speaker 2: a proponent for it, I think it's great to get
17:15
Speaker 2: habitat acres on the ground.
17:16
Speaker 3: And but you mentioned.
17:20
Speaker 2: Like, what's what's your what's your advice to someone that
17:23
Speaker 2: is considering to enroll something into c RP the dos
17:26
Speaker 2: and don'ts, and you know, there's difference. There's so many
17:31
Speaker 2: different things to go into CRP in different programs that
17:32
Speaker 2: you can use that may have higher utilization than like
17:37
Speaker 2: CP one cool seasoned grasses like that's I I couldn't
17:40
Speaker 2: really encourage.
17:41
Speaker 3: Anyone to do that for habitact. I don't think it
17:43
Speaker 3: carries a bunch of weight, which.
17:45
Speaker 2: So where where what is your thought process advice when
17:49
Speaker 2: it comes to c RP if someone wants to have
17:51
Speaker 2: it in order to help pay for ground and make
17:54
Speaker 2: a pencil out just you know, ever so slightly better.
17:57
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, definitely if if you're the person to
18:01
Speaker 5: where it matters to have that income, you know, some
18:04
Speaker 5: type of income, I would advise it because it does
18:07
Speaker 5: boost the habitat capacity of your of your property.
18:12
Speaker 4: I think current.
18:13
Speaker 5: You know, my experience is the county I live in
18:16
Speaker 5: and the NRCS people I dealt with here, and so
18:20
Speaker 5: you know, when I enrolled into what was called the
18:22
Speaker 5: CREPT program, the Conservation Enhancement Reserve Program, they said, Okay,
18:28
Speaker 5: this is the mix you're going to use, not here's
18:30
Speaker 5: a choice of mixes. This is what you're going to plant,
18:34
Speaker 5: and you know, you know, the cost here and all
18:37
Speaker 5: that was spread out.
18:38
Speaker 4: So it's not like I went into it blind and
18:41
Speaker 4: not knowing much about it.
18:42
Speaker 5: And this was again a twenty year program that has
18:44
Speaker 5: expired a year or so ago. You know, it had
18:48
Speaker 5: a certain percentage of cavan rocks, witch grass, indian grass,
18:51
Speaker 5: big blue stem, a little blue stem, and then some.
18:56
Speaker 4: Native wildflowers you know for a forbes mix in there.
18:59
Speaker 4: So it was a neat blend. But the way it ended.
19:02
Speaker 5: Up was it was far too thick to get good
19:05
Speaker 5: deer utilization. It was really thick, and so over the
19:10
Speaker 5: years I learned through what they called mid contract management,
19:15
Speaker 5: where you could burn it and disc it, that I
19:17
Speaker 5: could make some change and some structural change and get
19:20
Speaker 5: some native you know, golden rod and pig weed and
19:24
Speaker 5: things to come up and which all of a sudden
19:27
Speaker 5: you'd see big changes and deer usies, you know. So yeah,
19:32
Speaker 5: you know, it's if you don't need the income, at
19:36
Speaker 5: least in my county, was what I went through the
19:38
Speaker 5: last twenty years. I wouldn't suggest, I'd suggest planning it yourself,
19:43
Speaker 5: paying for it, and then being able to make modifications
19:47
Speaker 5: as you need, because you'll switch grass seeds every year receeds.
19:50
Speaker 5: So it tends certain areas tend to get thicker on
19:53
Speaker 5: their own, and there's always something you need to do
19:56
Speaker 5: to it.
20:09
Speaker 4: What.
20:10
Speaker 2: Okay, So let's say someone that doesn't need the income
20:12
Speaker 2: for CRP, or maybe they have a fallow field that's
20:14
Speaker 2: just cool season grasses right now, what what are some
20:20
Speaker 2: potential options for people to really increase the habitat attraction,
20:26
Speaker 2: specifically for white tail deer, because I feel like it's
20:28
Speaker 2: good for white tail deer. There'll be other forms of
20:30
Speaker 2: habitat that decide to use it. But this is this
20:33
Speaker 2: is Deer Hunting podcast. So you know you mentioned forges, forbes,
20:37
Speaker 2: you mentioned warm season grass, is like, what is kind
20:39
Speaker 2: of in your bag of tricks of this might be
20:42
Speaker 2: one of the better forms of habitat for deer.
20:45
Speaker 5: You know, I can tell you that a foul field,
20:48
Speaker 5: you know, whether it was an agg field once and
20:51
Speaker 5: it hasn't been planted in two years, six years, whatever.
20:54
Speaker 5: One of the best things a guy can do, and
20:57
Speaker 5: for not enrolling in a program, is to go in
20:59
Speaker 5: there in the springtime and spray it with a grass
21:02
Speaker 5: selective herbicide to kill off the cool season grasses because
21:06
Speaker 5: they really take over places like that. And then what
21:10
Speaker 5: it does it encourages the broad leaves, and broad leaves
21:13
Speaker 5: get taller. They're much more attractive to deer in a
21:17
Speaker 5: browse species, and they also create structure.
21:20
Speaker 4: You know, you'll get.
21:21
Speaker 5: Clumps of you know, golden rod, clumps of pig weed, mullin.
21:25
Speaker 5: There's all these different natives, you know, depending on your
21:27
Speaker 5: soil and moisture and things like that.
21:30
Speaker 4: But that's a pretty easy way to make really good
21:33
Speaker 4: deer habitat. During the early part of the season.
21:36
Speaker 5: Now when it gets cold and we get you know,
21:39
Speaker 5: heavy snows that tends to flatten down, but you know,
21:44
Speaker 5: it returns pretty easy, and there's other management you can do,
21:47
Speaker 5: you know, following years with you know, whether you want
21:50
Speaker 5: to do a prescribe burn to it and follow it
21:53
Speaker 5: with a disking, or go in and plant you know,
21:56
Speaker 5: a clumps of evergreens as well, you know, and and
22:00
Speaker 5: it can be a pretty attractive cover and uh kind
22:05
Speaker 5: of a transition zone which is really a little bit.
22:08
Speaker 4: Of time and work each season. Mm hmm, you know
22:12
Speaker 4: without you know, when you when you plant.
22:15
Speaker 5: Native grasses, there's a lot of prep and there's a
22:17
Speaker 5: lot of cost in maintaining those native grasses right out
22:20
Speaker 5: of the gate, you know, pounce break or see, you know,
22:23
Speaker 5: the whole whole deal you're familiar with.
22:26
Speaker 3: It's a lot of work and a lot of patients.
22:28
Speaker 2: And then you get you get noxious weeds that decide
22:31
Speaker 2: to also want to try to come up, and it's
22:34
Speaker 2: a it's it's I like planting trees and shrubs a
22:37
Speaker 2: lot more than I like establishing warm season grasses personally,
22:41
Speaker 2: and that might have to do with the seedbed uh
22:44
Speaker 2: that I have to there's a lot of this whole
22:47
Speaker 2: and junk that is just you know, not.
22:49
Speaker 3: Fun to deal with.
22:50
Speaker 2: But I imagine that that it's dependent on each farm
22:54
Speaker 2: for sure. But there's a lot of a lot of
22:56
Speaker 2: uphill battles here, which is okay. So you had your
23:02
Speaker 2: your farm, You've been working on it for almost forty
23:04
Speaker 2: five years roughly. If you had to say, like, what
23:09
Speaker 2: what was the best long term project over those forty
23:14
Speaker 2: five years where you know, ten years went by, twenty
23:17
Speaker 2: years went by, and you're like, gosh, I'm so glad
23:18
Speaker 2: I did that. Was there one that stuck out with you?
23:21
Speaker 5: I do have one, and it's a it's a fun uh,
23:24
Speaker 5: it's fun to discuss. And so you know, if you
23:28
Speaker 5: roll the clock back to nineteen eighty one through nineteen
23:32
Speaker 5: eighty nine, a time frame you know.
23:35
Speaker 4: There was no YouTube.
23:36
Speaker 5: You could pick up a hunting magazine and you could
23:39
Speaker 5: not find an article that discussed habitat and if you did,
23:42
Speaker 5: it was so general or it was something being done
23:45
Speaker 5: in Georgia or Texas. Okay, So what I did is
23:52
Speaker 5: I personally purchased and no program. My wife and I
23:58
Speaker 5: and my two sons as they were growing up over
24:01
Speaker 5: about a six to eight year time period, planted about
24:04
Speaker 5: two to five thousand Norway spruce and Douglas furs in
24:08
Speaker 5: an eleven acre section of our property, you know. And
24:12
Speaker 5: they were some were seedlings, some were maybe sixteen inches tall,
24:16
Speaker 5: you know, and this was a foul field that I decided, Okay,
24:20
Speaker 5: I'm not going to plan any crops in here, even
24:22
Speaker 5: though I had had a local farmer that was renting it,
24:25
Speaker 5: and I said, nope, we're going to take it out
24:27
Speaker 5: of production. I'm going to turn this into deer habitat.
24:31
Speaker 5: So winter thermal cover is really important, especially you know,
24:34
Speaker 5: as you get farther and farther north and we get
24:36
Speaker 5: our share of winter here. And it has turned out
24:39
Speaker 5: to be it is the deer holding spot. There are
24:44
Speaker 5: always deer in there. I don't care what the season.
24:49
Speaker 4: Now. They're huge. I mean, if you were to look
24:51
Speaker 4: at them, JA can go, Holy smokes.
24:52
Speaker 5: You planted those, yeah, so they're you know, thirty five
24:56
Speaker 5: feet tall. And through that process I learned some interesting things.
25:02
Speaker 5: Back in the day, you know, people are like, oh,
25:05
Speaker 5: you know, you just plant them in line, and you
25:07
Speaker 5: plan them, you know, eight to twelve foot on centers,
25:09
Speaker 5: and and you just you know, you just just plant
25:12
Speaker 5: the rows. And whether you use a tree planner or
25:14
Speaker 5: you use the dibble bar, there's all these different techniques,
25:17
Speaker 5: you know. And I did, you know the first couple
25:20
Speaker 5: of years, I planted.
25:21
Speaker 4: All these rows of Norway's and then you know, it's
25:25
Speaker 4: and and with that deer herd. I told you that
25:28
Speaker 4: was growing, you know. And I did not live here.
25:31
Speaker 5: I had a house about a half an hour away,
25:33
Speaker 5: so I was an absentee landowner at the time. So
25:37
Speaker 5: pulled in here, you know, to deer hunt one fall,
25:41
Speaker 5: and you know, as I'm walking back in, all my
25:44
Speaker 5: five foot Norways and rows have all the limbs are
25:48
Speaker 5: gone and they're all shiny yellow because the bucks have
25:51
Speaker 5: rubbed every tree.
25:53
Speaker 4: It was just like, really, you know, so that changed
25:58
Speaker 4: how I planted the tree.
25:59
Speaker 2: It's interesting now of the difference of how hard it
26:03
Speaker 2: is to establish some of these forms of habitat now
26:05
Speaker 2: with just the general deer density across the board. That's
26:09
Speaker 2: something I've experienced firsthand. And it's it's uh, you know,
26:14
Speaker 2: like I assume back then, if you planted an oak tree,
26:18
Speaker 2: it probably didn't get mowed down. Or I guess if
26:19
Speaker 2: you planted one hundred oak trees that they wouldn't get
26:21
Speaker 2: mowed down.
26:22
Speaker 3: Would that be accurate?
26:23
Speaker 4: That's that? Yeah, absolutely accurate.
26:25
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
26:26
Speaker 2: And now if you plant one hundred oak trees and
26:27
Speaker 2: you don't protect them, you're gonna have probably zero oak
26:30
Speaker 2: trees at the end of the summer, which is which
26:35
Speaker 2: is interesting a change of time of just the general
26:40
Speaker 2: density and the different needs.
26:42
Speaker 5: And but I tell you, you know, so survive all right,
26:50
Speaker 5: and then I added additional trees as as years went by,
26:54
Speaker 5: and now it's just it is it's hard to say
26:59
Speaker 5: if it's better or equally as good as the TSI
27:04
Speaker 5: work have done on the property, but it's but it's
27:07
Speaker 5: very important. And I can't imagine anyone with sixty or
27:12
Speaker 5: more acres that's that hires me that should not consider
27:19
Speaker 5: winter thermal cover if they if it's not existing there
27:22
Speaker 5: or they've got the room to put it in, because
27:26
Speaker 5: it's a very worthwhile investment.
27:29
Speaker 2: It is what over the years, how much has it
27:33
Speaker 2: helped you change your style of hunting over you know,
27:37
Speaker 2: the forty five years specifically, as all these different habitat
27:40
Speaker 2: changes took place, you know, your your conifers got bigger.
27:45
Speaker 2: How how different does your farm hunt today than what
27:48
Speaker 2: it did even ten years ago, you know ten.
27:52
Speaker 4: Yeah, even ten years ago, it hunts different.
27:56
Speaker 5: And uh you know because conifers, uh have larger in
28:00
Speaker 5: some areas. My TSI the detail, the amount of work
28:05
Speaker 5: that I've done, and because I've been doing TSI hinge Cutting, creating,
28:09
Speaker 5: betting for so many years that I've got multiple locations
28:12
Speaker 5: that are maturing or locations that are new cuts. And
28:17
Speaker 5: then you know just how I personally just treat the property.
28:23
Speaker 4: I've learned a lot by making mistakes.
28:27
Speaker 3: What are some of the mistakes.
28:29
Speaker 2: What are some of the mistakes you've made that you
28:30
Speaker 2: feel a lot of people are making now that you've
28:33
Speaker 2: wised up to avoid Now.
28:34
Speaker 4: I'll tell you.
28:36
Speaker 5: And this gets talked about a lot, but it is
28:39
Speaker 5: really it's so darn simple.
28:41
Speaker 4: I over hunted my stands. I didn't take time of the.
28:48
Speaker 5: Year like you know, I'd say, oh, I think I
28:51
Speaker 5: can get in there.
28:52
Speaker 4: I know it's not it's not rot, but I think
28:54
Speaker 4: I can get in there. Well, you know, I just
28:56
Speaker 4: won't do that anymore. Okay.
28:58
Speaker 5: I've got certain stands right into the thick of things
29:02
Speaker 5: where there's major travel going on, and I am just
29:06
Speaker 5: not in there unless it's the right time of the
29:09
Speaker 5: year and the when conditions are right, you know, and
29:12
Speaker 5: then I so I over hunted stands. I hunted the
29:15
Speaker 5: property too often.
29:17
Speaker 4: I My screening has really matured. I mean, I've got
29:22
Speaker 4: screening that is spruce trees. I've got Misscanthos grass screening.
29:27
Speaker 5: I've got you know, hinged trees with stem density screening
29:32
Speaker 5: that has you know, that's really helped. So you know,
29:36
Speaker 5: deer can't see me and I can get by food
29:39
Speaker 5: sources and the deer do not see me, and then
29:42
Speaker 5: I you know, I just am so careful about the right.
29:46
Speaker 5: What I've learned is there's a set of conditions that
29:48
Speaker 5: work really great for this property. And when those conditions
29:52
Speaker 5: are met, I hunt. When they aren't, I don't hunt.
29:55
Speaker 5: I've got a couple of observation stands up close to
29:58
Speaker 5: my house. You know, if you feel like oh Man's
30:00
Speaker 5: and you know it's this time of the year, it's
30:02
Speaker 5: been six days, the wind's wrong, you know, I'm not.
30:04
Speaker 5: I can't still can't go to the one stand I
30:06
Speaker 5: want to get to. Well, I've got some fairly close
30:08
Speaker 5: to my house that I can sit in and using
30:11
Speaker 5: binoculars watch deer in the area I wanted to hunt, Okay,
30:16
Speaker 5: because I'm up.
30:16
Speaker 4: High and I'm blessed to have a spot that's probably.
30:20
Speaker 5: Forty feet higher than other parts on the property, and
30:23
Speaker 5: so I can look down across this valley and see
30:26
Speaker 5: deer coming out of the bedding areas and that sort
30:28
Speaker 5: of thing. But yeah, I've really cut back on how
30:32
Speaker 5: hard I hunt how often. But I also am real
30:37
Speaker 5: strategic about my hunts.
30:38
Speaker 4: I go in.
30:39
Speaker 5: I'm not afraid to take a risk. When it's the
30:42
Speaker 5: right time, and I know I got a deer in
30:44
Speaker 5: the area, I go right.
30:45
Speaker 4: In, you know.
30:46
Speaker 5: And I'm still very conscious of my scent, my human scent.
30:52
Speaker 4: Cons the only place I hunt.
30:53
Speaker 5: I don't have six or seven properties I can swing between.
30:57
Speaker 5: This is the only place that I hunt during the fall.
31:01
Speaker 2: If you had a bunch of other places to go,
31:03
Speaker 2: how much of your strategy would be different? If you're
31:07
Speaker 2: like I can be less measured, a little bit more sloppy,
31:12
Speaker 2: swing for the fences more often because I have these
31:14
Speaker 2: three or four other places to go. Yeah, do you
31:16
Speaker 2: think it would drastically increase your odds or decrease them?
31:21
Speaker 3: In this scenario?
31:24
Speaker 4: You know I like that because I've never really been
31:26
Speaker 4: asked that question.
31:29
Speaker 5: I think if I was sloppier, I wouldn't have the
31:31
Speaker 5: success on this property, even though I would be here less. Okay,
31:36
Speaker 5: I still think every every precaution that I take earns
31:42
Speaker 5: its keep in my success and hunting here, you know.
31:47
Speaker 5: So I mean, man, if the wind isn't right, I
31:49
Speaker 5: just don't do it. And you know, but on the
31:53
Speaker 5: other hand, you know my success I've I've done good here.
31:57
Speaker 5: You know, I have a really good time hunting this.
32:00
Speaker 5: I don't have any trouble killing big mature doughs, and
32:04
Speaker 5: you know those can be as challenging as a boon
32:06
Speaker 5: and crocket in the section. Okay, you know, trying to
32:09
Speaker 5: kill a six or seven year old dough with twins
32:14
Speaker 5: with archery equipment and still pretty good challenge.
32:17
Speaker 3: Okay, they get sharp, they get really.
32:19
Speaker 4: Start, they really know what's going on.
32:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think they've they've encountered so many hunters
32:26
Speaker 2: so many different times, and they don't get shot. But they,
32:29
Speaker 2: I mean, they can just pick you out. You do
32:30
Speaker 2: one little thing wrong.
32:32
Speaker 4: Oh man, I mean, just the slightest movement and they've
32:34
Speaker 4: got you.
32:35
Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, what.
32:38
Speaker 2: You've helped a lot of people improve their farms over
32:41
Speaker 2: the years.
32:41
Speaker 3: I mean when.
32:44
Speaker 2: You're visiting with these folks and you know, I feel
32:47
Speaker 2: most often they're they're reaching out because they're not having
32:50
Speaker 2: the success of what they think they should be having
32:52
Speaker 2: on a particular piece. How often is it truly habitat
32:56
Speaker 2: and food or their own being their own detriment. And
33:00
Speaker 2: so what I mean by that is maybe they're over hunting,
33:02
Speaker 2: maybe they're saying their goals are this, but they're not
33:05
Speaker 2: really performing based off what they're saying or And what
33:09
Speaker 2: I'm getting is like, is it human error and element
33:12
Speaker 2: and decision making or is it honestly food and habitat
33:16
Speaker 2: on the deer side that you often have to address.
33:19
Speaker 5: You know, it's a little of both, but it definitely
33:22
Speaker 5: ly lean's heavy on what the landowner is doing.
33:27
Speaker 4: He's the guy that's in charge of his success or
33:31
Speaker 4: non success, and.
33:33
Speaker 5: There's you know, it's a very common scenario is to
33:37
Speaker 5: meet with some really good people and nice property. Maybe
33:40
Speaker 5: they've just played a little bit with food and they
33:43
Speaker 5: definitely need to put stands in different locations.
33:47
Speaker 4: But you know, one of the things they bring up
33:50
Speaker 4: to me right off the bat is.
33:51
Speaker 5: You know, we get we get good deer on camera,
33:54
Speaker 5: you know, from all summer long, and and you know,
33:57
Speaker 5: by the middle of October, all we're getting them, is it?
34:00
Speaker 4: And the neighbors end up killing them. You know, nobody's
34:04
Speaker 4: got to tell me what's going on.
34:05
Speaker 5: Okay, they're slowly moving those deer off, you know, because
34:09
Speaker 5: of you know, disturbance, you know, in human human odor.
34:12
Speaker 4: And yeah, so I would say that's probably.
34:16
Speaker 5: A seventy thirty if I was to give it, you know,
34:19
Speaker 5: seventy percent the landowner and thirty percent the habitat.
34:25
Speaker 4: You know, sometimes it really is important to I.
34:27
Speaker 5: Mean know, if you've got to park effect a woodlot,
34:30
Speaker 5: you can see all the way through it and there's
34:33
Speaker 5: no food, well, yeah, the habitat's not all that good.
34:35
Speaker 4: So there's just.
34:36
Speaker 5: Not that many deer utilizing that property, where if you
34:39
Speaker 5: made some pretty extreme changes over ten years, you could
34:42
Speaker 5: just completely change your success and what you'd see on
34:45
Speaker 5: that property.
34:46
Speaker 2: You know, had you have you ever been tempted to
34:50
Speaker 2: start over on a new property, And so you know,
34:54
Speaker 2: I feel like forty five years now later, now you
34:57
Speaker 2: have your farm pretty well dialed in from the sounds
34:59
Speaker 2: of it, you know, like the back of your hand.
35:00
Speaker 2: I bet you know every single tree on that farm.
35:02
Speaker 2: If I'm being honest, you probably know every.
35:05
Speaker 4: Single Yeah, I really do understand this farm very well.
35:09
Speaker 2: And so if you had to recreate, you know, this
35:13
Speaker 2: slice of heaven for you again on a piece, Let's
35:16
Speaker 2: say it's twenty miles down the road, how fast do
35:19
Speaker 2: you think you could get it? You know, ninety percent
35:22
Speaker 2: similar or similar quality to the farm that you know
35:25
Speaker 2: is taking.
35:27
Speaker 5: Given that was all I had to do was focus
35:29
Speaker 5: on that farm, and I had the resources three to
35:33
Speaker 5: five years, I could have it here.
35:35
Speaker 4: Really, what I've learned, Yeah.
35:38
Speaker 3: What are you doing in that three to five year spread?
35:41
Speaker 4: I am I'm going to do. I'm going to do
35:44
Speaker 4: heavy logging.
35:46
Speaker 5: If there's a mistake I see people make is that
35:48
Speaker 5: you know the term select cut. You know that is
35:51
Speaker 5: as a financially select for the timber buyer and not
35:55
Speaker 5: to select for the landowner. As far as the habitat creation,
35:58
Speaker 5: you know, it just doesn't open up the canopy enough.
36:01
Speaker 5: It gives them a little glimmer of hope, and five
36:03
Speaker 5: years later it's quit doing what it was supposed to do.
36:07
Speaker 5: And also I dial in my access man, I would
36:11
Speaker 5: work on my access and you know, and preferably this
36:15
Speaker 5: piece of property has got twenty five to thirty percent
36:18
Speaker 5: of open tillable on it, and then I'm going to
36:20
Speaker 5: you know, create you know, really good food sources that
36:25
Speaker 5: I can get to to deal with a different wind
36:28
Speaker 5: and hunting conditions on that property. And I'm going to
36:31
Speaker 5: utilize the deer come to me mode instead.
36:33
Speaker 4: Of me go to the deer.
36:35
Speaker 5: It's all going to be made to where I know
36:37
Speaker 5: where they're betting, and here's where they're going to feed,
36:39
Speaker 5: and it's going to be easy for me to get
36:41
Speaker 5: in and out of these you.
36:42
Speaker 4: Know, three four ideal hunting locations.
36:45
Speaker 2: So in this in this made up scenario, you have
36:47
Speaker 2: twenty acres or twenty percent of it being open tollable.
36:49
Speaker 2: If it's a sixty at twenty percent, it's like twelve
36:51
Speaker 2: acres of open ground.
36:52
Speaker 3: Are you putting twelve acres of food? Are you?
36:54
Speaker 2: Or is that like eighty eighty percent of really good habitat.
37:01
Speaker 5: It's probably gonna be about six to seven acres of
37:04
Speaker 5: food with some really good screening cover to break up
37:08
Speaker 5: that food. And then you know, allow me to move
37:11
Speaker 5: along the edges of that once open ground to get
37:15
Speaker 5: to different hunting conditions.
37:17
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, we.
37:18
Speaker 5: Have things available today that I that just wasn't you
37:21
Speaker 5: know forty five years ago. Okay, you couldn't find miscanthus
37:25
Speaker 5: grass to plant, you know, and nobody knew anything about
37:29
Speaker 5: plant and warm seasoned grasses very well, at least in
37:32
Speaker 5: this area at that time.
37:34
Speaker 2: You know, what's what's something that everyone takes for granted?
37:48
Speaker 2: Now that was groundbreaking to you. You just mentioned that.
37:51
Speaker 2: The knowledge base and even having you know, different species
37:54
Speaker 2: available to plant first, you know, and increasing your hunting opportunity.
37:58
Speaker 2: But what's a piece of information or a tool that's like,
38:01
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, if I would have had this available
38:03
Speaker 2: thirty years ago, that would have been so impactful.
38:08
Speaker 5: Oh boy, I would say, uh quite honestly, it's kind
38:14
Speaker 5: of two because both of these technologies have ramped up
38:17
Speaker 5: to be very helpful for landowners. And that would be
38:21
Speaker 5: trail cameras and the use of a drone. Sure, I
38:25
Speaker 5: mean now people just you know, they that's just what
38:28
Speaker 5: you do, right, But if there was a time we
38:30
Speaker 5: didn't have any of.
38:31
Speaker 2: That, but it makes it removes all secrets from the
38:37
Speaker 2: from nature. Honestly, Between those two tools.
38:42
Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about.
38:43
Speaker 2: You know, you you started bow hunting in Michigan was
38:46
Speaker 2: illegal to use tree stands, Which is this mind blowing
38:48
Speaker 2: to me because you know, tree stands and deer hunting
38:51
Speaker 2: or synonymous, they go together. When people think of deer hunting,
38:54
Speaker 2: they think of a tree stand, and so that when
38:56
Speaker 2: you started, that was not an option.
38:58
Speaker 3: Now Michigan has made a.
39:00
Speaker 2: Lot of a lot of people are paying attention to
39:02
Speaker 2: what's going on with Michigan with a potential legislation change.
39:06
Speaker 2: I think it's the decision may already be out by
39:09
Speaker 2: the time this goes live. We might miss it by
39:11
Speaker 2: a day. But from a Michigan native, a guy that's
39:15
Speaker 2: lived there his entire life and loves deer hunting, what
39:18
Speaker 2: is your what is your opinion or temperature on the
39:23
Speaker 2: discussions available? And I guess the biggest thing is what
39:27
Speaker 2: is going on in Michigan. I live in Illinois. I'm
39:29
Speaker 2: not I haven't paid super close attention, but I have slow,
39:33
Speaker 2: like very very ever so slightly paid attention to it.
39:35
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, it's We've been a state that has
39:39
Speaker 5: been managed by our Department and Natural Resources. You know,
39:42
Speaker 5: the Michigan d and r more for quantity versus quality.
39:49
Speaker 5: So the state of Michigan has always been about, you know,
39:53
Speaker 5: we're not too concerned about age class, where some states
39:57
Speaker 5: their regulations leaned towards it's age clash, you know, from
40:01
Speaker 5: the timing of the firearm season, the link of that
40:04
Speaker 5: firearm season and then how many bucks can you harvest
40:08
Speaker 5: in that state. And for several years, Michigan has been
40:12
Speaker 5: a two buck state. There was a time in the
40:15
Speaker 5: eighties it was a four buck state.
40:17
Speaker 4: Two of the bone, two of the gun.
40:20
Speaker 5: Prior to that, when I first started hunting, when three
40:23
Speaker 5: stands weren't legal, you had hunted on the ground. It
40:26
Speaker 5: was the only way, even with a bear recurve and
40:28
Speaker 5: cedar arrows, and that's why I killed my first few deer.
40:34
Speaker 4: Then it was one buck, okay, you could kill you
40:37
Speaker 4: could kill one buck.
40:38
Speaker 5: So you know, the state's been through a lot of changes,
40:40
Speaker 5: and through that the population increased, and the Department of
40:45
Speaker 5: Natural Resources was aware of that and made ant livers permits.
40:50
Speaker 4: At one time, it was a draw you put in
40:52
Speaker 4: for a permit.
40:53
Speaker 5: And then you know, you'd get you'd get notified whether
40:55
Speaker 5: you can purchase a permit or not okay, and then
40:59
Speaker 5: now it's you know, for several years it's been over
41:01
Speaker 5: the counter.
41:02
Speaker 4: You just go in and buy how many you want.
41:04
Speaker 4: And some.
41:06
Speaker 5: Deer management units were regulated for a maximum number. And
41:09
Speaker 5: then if you were a landowner, and I can even
41:12
Speaker 5: remember probably within fifteen years ago, if you were a
41:15
Speaker 5: landowner and owned over forty acres, then you could buy
41:19
Speaker 5: x amount of antler's tags. If you owned less than
41:21
Speaker 5: forty acres, then you know, it was a smaller amount.
41:24
Speaker 5: But the state of Michigan has had a lot of
41:28
Speaker 5: firearms gun season on antlerd bucks in Michigan. You know,
41:32
Speaker 5: starting with they have a youth season. It's usually about
41:35
Speaker 5: three or four days, you know, you know, early early,
41:39
Speaker 5: it's going to be early September. And then we have
41:42
Speaker 5: the firearm season that traditionally starts on November fifteenth through
41:46
Speaker 5: you know November thirty. First, that's a sixteen day season,
41:50
Speaker 5: and then there would be a four to five day
41:52
Speaker 5: gap and that first Friday in December. They'd come up
41:55
Speaker 5: with what they called the muzzle owner season. And at
41:58
Speaker 5: one time it actually was a muscle order season, but
42:00
Speaker 5: now any gun can be used in it and has
42:04
Speaker 5: run as long as fifteen sixteen days, and I think
42:07
Speaker 5: last year it was down to around ten or eleven days,
42:11
Speaker 5: So you know, you can add it up and get
42:13
Speaker 5: somewhere around twenty five to thirty days of firearms season
42:17
Speaker 5: on bucks. And so Michigan kills a larger proportion of
42:21
Speaker 5: antler bucks than they do antler steer, where the DNR
42:26
Speaker 5: has tried many methods and season links to get people
42:31
Speaker 5: to try and kill antler steer and it's just not working.
42:34
Speaker 5: And you know, the hunters themselves have been They use
42:37
Speaker 5: this term in Michigan on social media bucks centric. Everybody's
42:40
Speaker 5: buck centric. You know, I don't know what that really means, right,
42:43
Speaker 5: I think it means they're antler craized. You know, I
42:48
Speaker 5: appreciate every buck I see in the woods, and sure
42:51
Speaker 5: we all dream of seeing, you know, that really nice
42:53
Speaker 5: big the wallhowner, whatever that is. And it's it's great
42:57
Speaker 5: to as a land manager and landowner to manage each
43:00
Speaker 5: for that. It's very challenging in this state because we
43:04
Speaker 5: have number one high numbers of hunters, okay, and our
43:09
Speaker 5: hunter numbers to cover is also really high. And where
43:13
Speaker 5: I live, it's called Zone three because we have a
43:15
Speaker 5: lot of open farmland. You might have a square mile,
43:18
Speaker 5: you know, six hundred and forty acres, but literally one
43:21
Speaker 5: hundred and thirty of it is deer cover. The rest
43:23
Speaker 5: of it's all quarantine's alfalfa fields. Okay, So when you
43:27
Speaker 5: start putting eleven twelve hunters per square mile into that.
43:31
Speaker 4: One hundred and thirty acres, that's a lot of pressure.
43:34
Speaker 5: And there are certain areas of the state where they
43:36
Speaker 5: really wipe out the buck age class, in other areas
43:39
Speaker 5: not so much.
43:41
Speaker 4: So.
43:42
Speaker 5: The proposals are to go to a one buck rule
43:47
Speaker 5: and one you know, ideally a one buck rule with
43:50
Speaker 5: an Antler point restriction. You know, a lot of things
43:53
Speaker 5: have been floated through. They've got these different teams. They
43:58
Speaker 5: call it a DAT team, a deer advisor team that
44:00
Speaker 5: was put together that's worked side by side with the
44:03
Speaker 5: DNR for well over a year to develop recommendations to
44:07
Speaker 5: the to the dear biologists. And then those deer biologists
44:11
Speaker 5: and their upper management have a meeting and say, Yep,
44:14
Speaker 5: this looks good. We're gonna go with this number of proposals.
44:17
Speaker 5: We like these, and then the NRC Commission National Resource Commission,
44:21
Speaker 5: which sets season links season takes bag limits, that sort
44:26
Speaker 5: of thing gets public input, and they've had these open
44:30
Speaker 5: meetings in which I went to the last one up
44:33
Speaker 5: in Lansing, and eventually they're going to vote on what
44:38
Speaker 5: they feel of these proposed regulation changes would be good
44:42
Speaker 5: for the state of Michigan. And that's where you know,
44:48
Speaker 5: you know, that's where the elephant in the room has
44:49
Speaker 5: always been. There's been a lot of expressed interest from
44:55
Speaker 5: people on both sides. Some people want to leave it
44:57
Speaker 5: the same one, see just they want to keep their
45:00
Speaker 5: two buck tags. And there's lots of people, lots of
45:02
Speaker 5: hunters that have felt, jeez, if we went with a
45:06
Speaker 5: one buck season and possibly considered changing season links, this
45:11
Speaker 5: would encourage more people to take antler with dear and
45:13
Speaker 5: we could reach our goals and maybe kill more more
45:17
Speaker 5: ideally more doze than antler bucks in the state of Michigan,
45:20
Speaker 5: which would help the DNR reach their goal on population densities.
45:24
Speaker 5: I know that was a long answer.
45:26
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, you know, and what's.
45:32
Speaker 2: Your very what's your position on it? Are you in
45:35
Speaker 2: favor to go to a one buck I do.
45:38
Speaker 5: I favor it because that's pretty much what I practice
45:40
Speaker 5: on this property. And uh, there was a time I
45:43
Speaker 5: shot two bucks every year, most of the time killed
45:46
Speaker 5: them with a boat. And even though I was quote
45:50
Speaker 5: somewhat selective, you know, as I got better, as I
45:53
Speaker 5: got a bet, I became a better hunter, my habitat
45:56
Speaker 5: got better.
45:57
Speaker 4: I was pretty good at killing.
45:58
Speaker 5: Two two year olds, okay, but there was a time
46:01
Speaker 5: I was really happy with it. I couldn't imagine waiting
46:04
Speaker 5: for a three year old, you know. And then I
46:05
Speaker 5: slowly moved, I said, darn it, I'm going to kill
46:07
Speaker 5: a three year old. I'm not going to kill any
46:09
Speaker 5: two year olds anymore. And so I have just my
46:13
Speaker 5: own math. Is, if I'm killing two bucks a year
46:16
Speaker 5: and take you take a year and a half old buck,
46:20
Speaker 5: and the time it takes for him to be a
46:22
Speaker 5: five and a half or six and a half, we
46:24
Speaker 5: could have.
46:24
Speaker 4: Four to five years both times two.
46:26
Speaker 5: That's eight to ten bucks I've removed off of just
46:29
Speaker 5: this landscape.
46:31
Speaker 4: Well what if I only kill half of that many.
46:34
Speaker 5: That means, well, now four to five of those bucks
46:37
Speaker 5: have a chance to mature to that three, four, maybe
46:40
Speaker 5: five year old buck. And that doesn't mean that he
46:42
Speaker 5: doesn't step out in front of a truck on the
46:44
Speaker 5: road or the neighbor kills him, but at least I'm
46:47
Speaker 5: not the guy responsible for that. So I'm very pro
46:52
Speaker 5: in this region where I live, we need to take
46:54
Speaker 5: more antler with steer. And there was a time Michigan
46:58
Speaker 5: bow hunters were very good at harvesting does and that
47:01
Speaker 5: has really started declining and no one seems to know why.
47:04
Speaker 4: Okay, but it's happening. The numbers bear it out.
47:09
Speaker 2: I feel like most states have issues with with lack
47:12
Speaker 2: of UH dough harvest. I understand every part of the
47:15
Speaker 2: country is facing different issues, and but across the board,
47:19
Speaker 2: it's like the states try to make its convenient to
47:23
Speaker 2: shoot dose, but then people still just don't actually shoot
47:26
Speaker 2: the dos. And it'd be interesting to come up with
47:30
Speaker 2: a solution of a way to incentivize people to shoot
47:32
Speaker 2: a dough and if it's needed for that resource.
47:35
Speaker 4: It would. And so, you know, we've had a really
47:38
Speaker 4: neat process where a lot of people have had personal
47:41
Speaker 4: input and public speaking opportunities in front of the NRC,
47:45
Speaker 4: and it looked like the one buck rule with potentially
47:50
Speaker 4: an APR in the in the zones of Michigan that
47:54
Speaker 4: need that, because there's certain parts of Michigan that you know,
47:57
Speaker 4: at northern Michigan where longer winters poor habitat, that really
48:01
Speaker 4: wouldn't be the right thing to do for the hunters,
48:04
Speaker 4: but it was really moving along, and just just since
48:08
Speaker 4: in the last.
48:09
Speaker 5: Two or three days, social media has kind of gone
48:12
Speaker 5: on fire with some leaked information that members of the
48:17
Speaker 5: NRC Commission are now considering not going with any one
48:23
Speaker 5: buck rule and favoring what they call it and earn
48:26
Speaker 5: a buck for the second buck tag. And you know,
48:30
Speaker 5: there's all kinds of you know, there's all kinds of speculation.
48:34
Speaker 5: You know, how do you approve you killed the dough?
48:37
Speaker 5: Most states that have tried this didn't.
48:40
Speaker 4: Do it for very long because they couldn't get there
48:43
Speaker 4: was non compliance. Okay, that's the easy way of saying.
48:46
Speaker 2: Basically, people would fake it, fake check in another a
48:49
Speaker 2: dough that they shot, and we have we have.
48:51
Speaker 5: To register our each year we kill uh online and
48:55
Speaker 5: spend that way about three or four years here in Michigan.
48:57
Speaker 5: So you know, I mean, I can just see somebody
48:58
Speaker 5: sitting there saying, yep, I kill my dough.
49:00
Speaker 4: Now I'm gonna purchase.
49:01
Speaker 5: My my buck tag so I can get my second
49:04
Speaker 5: buck tag. So that's probably if it happens, it's probably
49:08
Speaker 5: not gonna really move the needle when it comes to
49:12
Speaker 5: reducing the number of bucks that are killed and increasing
49:15
Speaker 5: the number of antler a steer.
49:17
Speaker 4: That are killed. If I wanted to Buddy was honest
49:20
Speaker 4: and you know we're like people like you and me,
49:23
Speaker 4: it would work.
49:24
Speaker 5: But I know too many people that are just gonna
49:28
Speaker 5: do whatever that you know, you know, the takers in
49:30
Speaker 5: the world.
49:32
Speaker 2: I wonder if they could when they do the check in,
49:35
Speaker 2: if you have to have like a picture of the
49:36
Speaker 2: dough with your tag actually on the deer. And then
49:40
Speaker 2: also I think if the if the den ARDID spot
49:43
Speaker 2: checks of Okay, yep, you know this dough is registered,
49:47
Speaker 2: and you know we're in the area, We're going to
49:48
Speaker 2: go see if you know, see this dough hanging or
49:51
Speaker 2: make sure it's at the meat locker or whatever the
49:53
Speaker 2: case may be, and and maybe make those those spines,
49:58
Speaker 2: you know, somewhat to where people would want to do that.
50:00
Speaker 2: And that's the problems. Like human nature, people if there's
50:02
Speaker 2: a loophole will try to find it. But if there
50:05
Speaker 2: was some sort of governance, But I feel everyone has
50:09
Speaker 2: a hard time with the resources they have already right,
50:11
Speaker 2: like all those state spread then.
50:15
Speaker 4: You know, Uh, basically what you said was brought up.
50:18
Speaker 5: I saw in some social media sites that I go to,
50:21
Speaker 5: and uh, it's pretty much come out that the d
50:23
Speaker 5: n R really doesn't have the resources. They don't demand power,
50:27
Speaker 5: they're tight on funds as it is, just like everybody
50:31
Speaker 5: right now, right, yeah, yeah, So I don't know what
50:35
Speaker 5: the answer is, and who knows. We may be talking
50:37
Speaker 5: about something that doesn't even happen, you know, Wednesday, these
50:41
Speaker 5: people get together, they vote, who knows where what direction
50:44
Speaker 5: it's going to run.
50:45
Speaker 4: It's uh.
50:47
Speaker 5: I would just say that history has told me typically
50:50
Speaker 5: the NRC does not favor deer regulations that benefit the
50:55
Speaker 5: hunter for whatever reason. You know, as far as in
51:01
Speaker 5: helping the d NR reach their goal.
51:04
Speaker 4: If the majority of the hunters in Michigan, which it appears,
51:07
Speaker 4: would like to improve the buck age class, I've never
51:12
Speaker 4: ever seen a regulation that's really gone to workforce, you know,
51:16
Speaker 4: they like, we do have a we have a two
51:19
Speaker 4: buck limit right now, and in my zone three, one
51:23
Speaker 4: of those bucks have to have at least four.
51:25
Speaker 5: Points on one side. So one of those bucks is
51:28
Speaker 5: quoted APR buck. But Southern Michigan good habitat year and
51:32
Speaker 5: a half old bucks have four points on the side. Okay,
51:35
Speaker 5: that's not a very good stretch to get an eight
51:37
Speaker 5: point year and a half old buck.
51:38
Speaker 4: Okay, so it's not advancing eight struts.
51:41
Speaker 2: Do you as of last season, for example, I mean,
51:44
Speaker 2: do you feel that Michigan has steadily And I know
51:47
Speaker 2: you're you're kind of trying to think the best way
51:51
Speaker 2: to say, but kind of on your own island here,
51:52
Speaker 2: because you hut one property and it's the one that
51:54
Speaker 2: you've managed and hunted forever. But so it's kind of
51:57
Speaker 2: a loaded question. So maybe think of some of your
51:59
Speaker 2: friends or people in the area. Is the is the
52:02
Speaker 2: discussion that it's getting better or worse? And I want
52:06
Speaker 2: your objective opinion too, from your own observations, like is
52:09
Speaker 2: Michigan improving because like, for example, Pennsylvania has always gotten
52:12
Speaker 2: beat up for not being great, but my perception of
52:15
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania is that it actually has gotten quite a bit
52:18
Speaker 2: better over the last ten years. Where would you say
52:21
Speaker 2: that falls within range with Michigan, You know, in your
52:23
Speaker 2: county and your in zone three for example.
52:25
Speaker 5: Oh you know, I will I will uh say it
52:30
Speaker 5: is better in Michigan now than it's ever been. Regardless
52:34
Speaker 5: of the regulations, Today's hunters, and especially our younger hunters
52:39
Speaker 5: want better deer hunting.
52:41
Speaker 4: And I think.
52:42
Speaker 5: That's uh, you know YouTube the hunting shows, we it's
52:48
Speaker 5: you know, some people can say, oh, that's a negative,
52:50
Speaker 5: it hasn't helped. Well, I think I think it has helped.
52:52
Speaker 5: With the younger hunter. They want an opportunity to kill
52:55
Speaker 5: that deer that the guys in Iowa and Kansas and
52:58
Speaker 5: Illinois get an opportunity need it to, you know, ear
53:01
Speaker 5: least see or know that something like that's around. I
53:05
Speaker 5: score for commemorative bucks here in Michigan. So I get
53:08
Speaker 5: a chance to meet really a really neat cross section
53:12
Speaker 5: of the hunters in Michigan. And I'll tell you these
53:15
Speaker 5: young you know, anywhere from seventeen to thirty year old
53:19
Speaker 5: hunters come in with the best dear they've ever killed,
53:22
Speaker 5: with their stories about how many bucks they've passed in
53:25
Speaker 5: the last few years to get this buck. So it's
53:29
Speaker 5: happening regardless of the regulation.
53:31
Speaker 3: It's a culturally, it's changing culturally.
53:35
Speaker 4: I mean it's it's a slow change, but it's it
53:37
Speaker 4: is changing. It's getting better. Yeah, okay, and then myself.
53:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I know, I know it's getting better
53:47
Speaker 2: for you.
53:48
Speaker 5: It's getting better. It's been you know, it's it's been good.
53:52
Speaker 5: There's been no complaints for me. So, you know, a
53:57
Speaker 5: dozen or more years on this property.
53:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's truly impressive speaking with one property for that
54:04
Speaker 2: long because I know people usually people get bored and
54:07
Speaker 2: they move on to something else and start over. But
54:09
Speaker 2: you've you've stayed true to that piece. My last question
54:12
Speaker 2: for you, Jake is think of all the experiences you've
54:16
Speaker 2: had over the years. There's probably a eighteen to twenty
54:19
Speaker 2: two year old guy right now or gal listening to
54:22
Speaker 2: this right now. What do you want to tell them
54:24
Speaker 2: that you wish you knew when you started this crazy journey?
54:27
Speaker 3: Uh, you know, fifty plus years ago.
54:32
Speaker 4: I wish you know.
54:33
Speaker 5: That's a good one. I wish I knew just how
54:38
Speaker 5: big of an impact I had in my own hunting.
54:44
Speaker 4: It reallyful.
54:46
Speaker 5: I made this comment to a guy the other day.
54:48
Speaker 5: The person looking back at you in the mirror is
54:51
Speaker 5: in charge of everything when it comes to your honey.
54:55
Speaker 2: That's excellent, excellent, Well, Jake, So if people want to
55:00
Speaker 2: fall along with what you have going on Where is
55:03
Speaker 2: the best place for them to best racquet.
55:05
Speaker 4: To view and see my content is my YouTube channel.
55:09
Speaker 5: Habitat Solutions three sixty ILLC and I upload a lot
55:14
Speaker 5: of good content everything from my hunting experiences to know
55:19
Speaker 5: my habitat work and my planting season and you know,
55:22
Speaker 5: my updates and some drone video and things like that, and.
55:25
Speaker 4: So that's the best place to find my content.
55:29
Speaker 2: Awesome, well, Jake, thank you so much. I appreciate you
55:31
Speaker 2: sharing your wisdom over the years. Hopefully folks have a
55:35
Speaker 2: little bit of a better of a game plan and
55:37
Speaker 2: can diagnose some areas where they can improve, whether it's
55:39
Speaker 2: how they hunt when they hunt, or how they might
55:42
Speaker 2: want to design their spring food plots or fall food plots.
55:45
Speaker 3: So thank you so much.
55:46
Speaker 2: You will have a good one, Jake, you guys have
55:52
Speaker 2: I hope you guys enjoyed this week's episode of Wire
55:55
Speaker 2: to Hunt. Be sure to hit the subscribe button if
55:58
Speaker 2: you haven't done so already, and we will see you
56:01
Speaker 2: next week. Hm