Latest / Coaches Rising / 258 - Muriel Wilkins: Leadership Unblocked

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258 - Muriel Wilkins: Leadership Unblocked · Coaches Rising

0:01
[UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
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[SPEAKER_00]: welcome back to the coaches rising podcast today.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm joined by a Muriel Wilkins and we're going to be exploring some of the big ideas from Muriel's new book, Leadership Unblocked, breakthrough the beliefs that limit your potential.
0:33
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to unpack how Muriel
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[SPEAKER_00]: coaches her executive clients to unwind the core beliefs that limit their leadership.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And in particular, we'll explore seven common beliefs that commonly keep leaders that can how we can help our clients to move beyond them.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Muriel Wilkins is the founder and CEO of Paravis Partners.
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[SPEAKER_00]: She is a sought after sea-sweet advisor and executive coach with a 20 year track record of coaching senior leaders.
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[SPEAKER_00]: As I've mentioned, she's the author of leadership unblocked and co-author of own the room.
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[SPEAKER_00]: She's also the host of the Harvard Business Review podcast coaching real leaders.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, let's dive in.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the podcast with Muriel Wilkins.
1:22
[SPEAKER_00]: So, Muriel, it's a real delight to be with you again.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation.
1:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Last time, I do recommend people check that out on the podcast.
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[SPEAKER_00]: So, I'm just really looking forward to this one too.
1:34
[SPEAKER_00]: How are you today?
1:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm good.
1:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm good and I'm delighted as well.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I too enjoyed our last conversation.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, I've been looking forward to this.
1:42
[SPEAKER_00]: yeah, cool.
1:44
[SPEAKER_00]: So, part of the reason when meeting again is that you have a new book out, and I wanted if you could share with us the title of that book, and most importantly, you know, it's such a relevant book for coaches.
1:56
[SPEAKER_00]: How come you decided to write the book?
1:58
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
1:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so the title of the book is called Leadership Unblocked and it is about breaking through the belief that limit your potential.
2:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And I decide to be honest, though.
2:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me let me be really honest with you.
2:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I had swore I never write another book.
2:15
[SPEAKER_01]: My last book came out.
2:16
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not the first person I had.
2:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my gosh.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my last book came out about 13 years ago.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it was a great experience, but it was a very arduous experience.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm not one of these folks who just wants to write another book because I need to supposedly stay relevant or all the marketing reasons you should do it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And while other opportunities came up, I always said no, but then this idea came up for me around it through my work as a coach and it just wouldn't let me go.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not even going to say that I couldn't let it go.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It wouldn't let me go.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so at some point, I just said, okay, well, let me see if there's something there and lo and behold, over three years it became an actual book.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think that's a great way to to write.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I don't know if that made it easier, but you know, I often feel you can tell with books that come through that way rather than, you know, the way you describe previously where you know, it's for the staying in the living, it's so nice.
3:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and it really was born out of a realization that I had, you know, I've been,
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[SPEAKER_01]: coaching for a little over 20 years now, and I will admit that most, you know, a large part of my coaching particularly at the start, probably for the first half of my coaching career was very much reflecting who I was not just as an individual, but as a coach, I was very action biased.
3:44
[SPEAKER_01]: and moving my clients to action as quickly as we could.
3:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And what I started realizing through a lot of bumps in the road quite frankly, is that while my clients were moving to action, it wasn't sustainable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Which got me curious around why their actions, why the strategies that we were putting in place were not sustainable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I recognized that it was because the internal strategy hadn't changed that strategy being around their beliefs and so that's what got me really curious about it in terms of how to really think about how your beliefs shape your actions and what that looks like in the form of coaching.
4:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was going through a parallel path myself in my own journey, which then really brought me to to the recognition of what leaders there are specific beliefs that might get in the way, and unless they're able to expand from them, then they're going to sort of go back to the the thing that they came to coaching for in the beginning.
4:48
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's interesting what you said there, how can you identify beliefs that start to get in the way as opposed to, you know, maybe we all hold set of beliefs, which is necessary, you know, that's how we kind of make sense of who we are in the world, but if it sounds like to you that certain beliefs start to get in the way in some way.
5:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, I do think that beliefs are unique to you, right, because as you know, the origin of them is grounded in your story and everyone has a different story.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There is difficulty in where it can be challenging to recognize what those beliefs are, and that's actually what drove me to be curious about, are there some beliefs that are pretty common?
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[SPEAKER_01]: in terms of the leaders that I've seen.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So part of my purpose in this book is to bring to the surface some of the main beliefs that I see get in leaders way, but in no way am I saying these are the only beliefs, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: If anything, it acts as a catalyst to say, here are seven of the common ones and you might hold some of these.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You might hold others, but here, so here's a process by which you can discover them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the seven that I found, I basically look across over 300 clients that I had coached over the past 20 years, different industries, different sectors, different gender so that there was some diversity there and again, I wasn't sure, but I thought maybe there's some commonality, maybe there's not.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And low and behold, there were some pretty common beliefs that they held that really led again to them coming to coaching or what were there being a coaching need or an area of development that they needed.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That said, if it's not one of those seven, I think there's a simple.
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[SPEAKER_01]: practice that anyone can use to discover what beliefs might either be helping them or holding them back.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And it starts from a place of being very curious and asking yourself the question, what is it that I'm thinking at this moment that might be contributing to the situation that I find myself in?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I find that most people don't even think about doing that step and certainly skip it, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because they want to move quickly to what should I do to resolve the situation rather than start with?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, what is it that's even contributing to the situation?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's within me, not necessarily that lies in the other.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And do you find that it's easy for people and they ask that question to start to tune in to what that belief might be?
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[SPEAKER_00]: How do you support them?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it's interesting, I think most people when you ask them that, they don't go to a belief.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They'll say, they'll go to what they've done.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right, we're so, again, to use the term action bias.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We are so.
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[SPEAKER_01]: action oriented.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We are not, you know, again, human beings were human doers.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the instinct is to go straight to what it is that I do rather than what is it that I think or even what I feel, right?
8:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it does take some nudging, but the nudging lies in the questions and to keep kind back to, well, what do you thinking?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What is the belief that you hold?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What is the story that you're
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[SPEAKER_01]: What is the narration of how you're interpreting?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What's your interpretation of what's happening?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so, if one is armed, at least with those questions, you can ask those of yourself or ask them of another.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The answer lies in that person.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There is no way that I can presume what somebody is thinking.
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[SPEAKER_01]: or presume what their assumption is, or presume what their interpretation is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But I think this is where it's really important to let an individual own that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that's real power, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because at the end of the day, if you can own, yeah, this is what I thought about that situation or what my assumption was, it gives you agency to choose a different assumption, right?
9:00
[SPEAKER_01]: A different belief,
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[SPEAKER_01]: that then leads to a different version of action.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And for me, that's the power of coaching is giving individuals or providing a forum through which individuals recognize that they have a choice in the way that they respond and the way that they act, but in order to do that in a sustainable way, they also have to recognize that they have a choice and control over how they think about anything.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so just before we my unpack, you know, examine some of these seven common kind of key beliefs.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Just staying with this kind of open exploration.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Do you find that you have to invite people into a kind of sense of wonder or curiosity because it might be that they're not even aware of that belief really, can you find often maybe that they just, you know,
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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, after going back to action and then bringing them back, they get it straight away or do you find that there's a kind of, you know, sense of curiosity, maybe a Gestalt of them feeling into, you know, not just their thinking but how they were feeling around the situation and then something might emerge.
10:16
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I'll be honest with you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I've never had, and it will be interesting once this book comes out of that changes, but I've never had a client or a potential client come to me and say, hey, Muriel, I need a coach.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And what I want to work on is my set of beliefs.
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's never happened, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What I need to work on is my mindset.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They're looking at the results in the outcome.
10:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And as a rule of thumb, I always meet my client where they are.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So not all of my clients are ready for this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: For them, I have to start with action and skill.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then if they start seeing that they're not getting anywhere, then we work backwards.
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[SPEAKER_01]: For others who might be more open or have already a high level of sense of self awareness or an intuitive sense that internally there's some descendants then we may start there so the starting point is different for everyone and in fact in the book as I share different client examples it's very clear that everyone has a different starting point right.
11:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But to the point around curiosity, you know, my style tends to be very direct and pragmatic.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So it's not as though I sit with clients and say, oh, well, like, let's really talk about thoughts and feelings and all of that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Literally, they'll say, you know, this is what happened.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I got into it with one of my colleagues.
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[SPEAKER_01]: He really frustrated me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I don't get why he's doing what he's doing.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'll say, oh, okay.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So how are you interpreting what he's doing?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: What's your interpretation of what he's doing?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then they'll say, and I'll go, what is that based on?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Is that true?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we'll talk through it in a very practical, pragmatic way.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And in the last question, as always, is your interpretation or is your belief around that?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Is that hoping you in this moment?
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[SPEAKER_01]: If they say it is, then we're good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to change anything.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But if there's some dissonance between the way they're thinking about the situation or thinking about the other person or thinking about themselves, there's some dissonance between that and that outcomes that they said they want to achieve, then that's where the magic is, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Because then the question becomes, what would you need to believe in order to increase the probability that that outcome comes true?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's actually a powerful question in of itself here.
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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's such a beautiful coaching question.
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[SPEAKER_00]: But what would you need to believe in order for the goal to come true or to happen of the outcome to happen?
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[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I always, you know, I always phrase it as increased a probability because I mean, who am I to say, of course, you're going to get to that outcome.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We don't know what's going to happen tomorrow.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I always say increased the probability and I use, you know, most of my clients are business executives, you know, so they get that, they get the language of increasing probability, increasing the chances.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And that it's a hypothesis, but I also say that purposefully, because I want them to recognize without me saying it, that all beliefs you can hold on to very loosely, and in fact, you should, right?
13:27
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not about changing from one belief to the other, and then you're going to hold onto it so tightly and never let it go.
13:33
[SPEAKER_01]: No.
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[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, what I tell my clients is, I don't want you to let go of that belief.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I just want you to put it to the side right now because it's not helping you, but let it be there in case you ever need to come back to it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So holding them loosely allows you to have more range.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think when you have more ranges there, then when we start seeing an expansion and leadership capabilities and the ability to deal with more complex situations, right?
14:04
[SPEAKER_00]: So imagine that's a meta skill in of itself, you know, is like, it lead a learning to take perspective on their unconscious beliefs in any moment where they might not be getting the outcome they want.
14:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.
14:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know what strikes me, I mean, look, I didn't make any of this up Joel.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I don't take credit for any of it.
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[SPEAKER_01]: This is grounded in many, many leadership thinkers that wake the came way before me.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Wisdom teachers, psychology.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's so much grounding around all this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: All I have done is said, okay, what is a way that we can package this in a way that makes it more palatable.
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[SPEAKER_01]: for some of these, you know, executives that we deal with.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think to your point, their ability to get on perspective and see different ways of thinking about their subconscious belief, here's the whole thing.
14:56
[SPEAKER_01]: They're already doing that when it comes to their businesses.
15:00
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: They're looking at, you know, that's what strategic planning is.
15:04
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what scenario planning is.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But they're not applying that same skill to themselves in terms of how that then drives their leadership behavior.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They're not even conscious that they have these subconscious thoughts, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so,
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[SPEAKER_01]: The beauty in all this is that they start recognizing that in the same way that the assumptions that they carry around the business and how that drives what direction their businesses need to go in to go in, they can apply that same model for themselves in their own operating system and that's when it starts clicking.
15:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, beautiful, and not, you know, it's a transferable set of skills.
15:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
15:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's important, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I try a lot to get folks to see that while the path might not be easy in terms of practice, which is okay, the solution is actually almost
16:02
[SPEAKER_01]: always very simple and something that they have already done elsewhere.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They just need to transfer the skill in other areas of their leadership or their life.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so when they recognize that, they start saying, oh, okay, okay, yeah, I can do this.
16:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I can do this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not that different.
16:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not out there.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not some woo-woo stuff.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm actually doing it just in on a different field.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Could we look at some of those seven key beliefs?
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[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if we could even just name all seven and make them unpack a few of them.
16:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Absolutely, absolutely.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So there are seven of them.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'll go through them and then we can unpack whichever one you'd like.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, and again, these came out of looking at all of my different clients, right?
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[SPEAKER_01]: When I looked at what the issues were that they were, and then I had all my notes and sort of,
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[SPEAKER_01]: ran in analysis to see what were some of the thoughts that came up for them, what were they thinking, or the assumptions that they were carrying.
17:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is different than archetypes, right?
17:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I've seen a ton out there around archetypes, personality types, and what struck me is that behind every personality, which is really a learned behavior.
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[SPEAKER_01]: was a belief or a set of beliefs and a mindset and that's why I wanted to get down to that level rather than just keep it at the surface of archetype and personality.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So the beliefs are very, very simple.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I need to be involved.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So think about them as like the internal voice.
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[SPEAKER_01]: in the internal dialogue.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I need to be involved.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I need it done now.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I know I'm right.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Number four is I can't make a mistake.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Number five, this was probably one of the biggest surprises for me, if I can do it, so can you.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Number six is I can't say no.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And number seven is I don't belong here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So each of these are small, sometimes allowed voices in our head, in our hearts that tend to then drive,
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[SPEAKER_01]: completely unintended, we don't even know they're doing it, drive the way that we may behave in certain situations.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm wondering, you know, as I hear some of them, you know, it's really our identity is can be constructed, some of some of these beliefs.
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[SPEAKER_00]: How much do you find you need to, you know, do kind of,
18:29
[SPEAKER_00]: emotional integration work around some of these police.
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[SPEAKER_00]: For example, it might be kind of, you know, threatening to let go of a belief that I need to do it now or I can't say no because I'm terrified, you know, that I'm getting upset someone and break connection.
18:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, do you find that that's a process of letting go of it or, you know,
18:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I do, right?
18:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And if again, if a client isn't ready, I'm, I'm cool with that, right?
19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just doesn't mean that they can't.
19:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It just means that they're not ready.
19:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's not the moment.
19:05
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we move it on and we figure out some other ways.
19:08
[SPEAKER_01]: That said, I try to,
19:11
[SPEAKER_01]: stay away from even the terminology or the verbiage of letting go.
19:15
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, when we were trying to name the book, a couple of the ideas were letting go or, you know, overcoming and I really bristled at that because they are not bad.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They are not our foe or enemy, they are not to be let go of.
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[SPEAKER_01]: They are just meant to play their role when they are meant to do good.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And in certain capacity used a word identity,
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[SPEAKER_01]: we tend to attach our identity to certain beliefs that were formed when they were necessary, which for most of us was earlier on in our lives, but that may not be necessary for us at this given moment as full blown adults.
20:02
[SPEAKER_01]: and leaders, right?
20:04
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the work with clients when you talk about emotional integration is really getting them to think in a pragmatic way about what truly is the risk of putting that belief to the side momentarily and adopting for the moment a new or a reframe to belief.
20:25
[SPEAKER_01]: that might serve them better.
20:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
20:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And if there are really hesitant around it, then we practice it in low risk ways, right?
20:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a believer in practice the big shift when you're in the boardroom giving the high stakes doing the high stakes presentation.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: No, do it at home, do it with your kid, do it with at the grocery store.
20:51
[SPEAKER_01]: You
20:51
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, but one of the ways that I have some of my clients practice, something around like, if I can do it so can you, which is really a belief that can destroy any level of compassion that somebody has, I have them practice that in the grocery store.
21:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
21:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I haven't practiced that when they're sitting in traffic because think about it.
21:12
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I sat in traffic the other day.
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, if I'm behind a slow driver and I'm like, oh my god, why are they going so slow?
21:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Underneath that is saying, I know I could drive faster, so why can't they drive faster?
21:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Rather than, well, I'm not really sure what's going on with them.
21:29
[SPEAKER_01]: There must be a reason they're driving slow.
21:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it really any of my business?
21:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's slowing me down, but there's nothing I can do about it.
21:36
[SPEAKER_01]: That is a true practice of compassion, right?
21:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you're literally forced to just watch that car go slow in front of you and witness it.
21:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But without the angst and energy that could typically come around it, that then makes the experience that much more difficult.
21:49
[SPEAKER_01]: So practice in small ways, I think, helps with that integration.
21:55
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, what I'm hearing about that, there's very practical as well, is that it kind of de-rearifies the person, like the relationship and opens up curiosity, empathy, and probably a pathway towards better performance, or better outcomes, because suddenly now I'm,
22:19
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm aware that I've kind of projected this idea onto them and now I'm more curious about who they actually are in relationship to the thing they're doing.
22:29
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
22:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And some of these beliefs are more based on the other, some of them are grounded in ourselves, like the I don't belong here.
22:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So what that does is a reverse effect, which is it opens up our eyes and curiosity and Expansed a relationship that we have with ourselves.
22:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you think about it, if you, you know, as I said, I think beliefs are stories.
22:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm always fascinated, and I am curious about other people's stories, right?
22:56
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I really feel like I don't know someone unless I know your story, you know?
23:02
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we think about that, that's what a belief is.
23:06
[SPEAKER_01]: The minute you start being curious about beliefs, it automatically.
23:11
[SPEAKER_01]: opens up the door for understanding.
23:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Not necessarily agreement.
23:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I might not agree with your story.
23:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I might not agree with your belief.
23:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I might not agree with the way you go about things, but I can certainly understand it.
23:22
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I understand it, then again, I can think about, well, how do I best respond to that or how do I act accordingly in order to meet the outcomes that
23:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm looking to meet because, again, my client a very outcomes oriented.
23:35
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is not just about doing it because we'll all be a better world, although I think we would be, but I also wanna show them the correlation between what it is that they think and believe and how that then drives the results that they want.
23:52
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense and something I want to highlight, which you said a little bit earlier, which I think is really important, which is it's not about letting go or breaking through.
24:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I love that because I think that's kind of right from the coaching industry, you know, sense of improving, I mean, okay, you know, people do want to succeed more, create that
24:22
[SPEAKER_00]: put us in a kind of battle with these beliefs, you know, and like that they're wrong, I just need to get rid of it, and then I'll be okay.
24:30
[SPEAKER_00]: But as you, I think beautifully articulated, they're actually, you know, they actually helped us succeed at one point in our life, or there was an intelligence inside of those that, you know, helped us remain connected and that's right.
24:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, extreme intelligence.
24:47
[SPEAKER_01]: extreme intelligence, right?
24:49
[SPEAKER_01]: I am like, this is when I start getting, you know, fascinated and amazed by the intelligence that we carry within, which is no different than, you know, what we see in nature, etc.
25:02
[SPEAKER_01]: But the fact of matter is like, I think this is what and I know I can go here with you and with your audience, like this is what adult development theory is all about, you know, in or a piece of it, which is the integration of the different sets of beliefs that we have that it's not this one or the other it's not black or white it's not this or that, you know, it's been become very cliche in the past couple of years to think about the both and right, but in practicality, what does that mean?
25:30
[SPEAKER_01]: It means that, you know, when it comes to beliefs, yeah, two things can actually be true at the same time.
25:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Multiple things can be true at the same time.
25:39
[SPEAKER_01]: If you are saying that truth lies in the interpretation.
25:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I tend to think about it as your experience might be true.
25:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But that doesn't necessarily mean the thing that's actually happening is true, right?
25:53
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I try to discern with my clients what is happening?
25:57
[SPEAKER_01]: The reality of the situation, the reality of the discussion, the reality of the facts on the table with how you might be thinking about it or experiencing it, which by the way, might be very different than how everyone else is thinking about it.
26:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So as a leader, right?
26:16
[SPEAKER_01]: As a leader, if your jaw is to get everyone moving in the same direction towards a shared goal, man doesn't make it that much harder for you.
26:27
[SPEAKER_01]: If you don't have an understanding of how everyone else is experiencing the same problem that you're looking to solve and made even harder, if you don't understand,
26:38
[SPEAKER_01]: how you yourself are experiencing it, which, by the way, your experience is completely dictated by your assumptions and your beliefs.
26:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's where I see the integration and where I see a potential that can be met by leaders who are already high performers.
26:56
[SPEAKER_01]: But who can take that performance to an even higher caliber if they're able to expand the way that they think by adopting that there are different, again, assumptions that they can carry.
27:07
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't have to let them go.
27:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just recognizing which ones are going to be most helpful at a particular moment in time.
27:15
[SPEAKER_00]: But do you coach leaders to hold that as an inquiry with their teams?
27:21
[SPEAKER_00]: Like what assumptions are we holding right now about this situation or what assumptions are we holding about the way we're responding to this situation?
27:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I do.
27:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I do.
27:35
[SPEAKER_01]: However, with a huge caveat, you know, because they always want to go down that road.
27:39
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they always want to go down the road.
27:40
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, how do I do this with other people.
27:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
27:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I get my people to think differently.
27:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, well, let's use our, but why don't we use you as the practice ground.
27:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And that all comes back to again, you know, Keegan's work and or even more so the leadership circle folks I'm forgetting they're all right now yes Bob Anderson who always says like a leader cannot take and I'm really documenting his words, but basically a leader cannot take an organization to a capacity higher than what they have themselves right.
28:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think part of this is you know, if you want to really do this work with your teen, you've got to be able to do it with yourself first, you know, start with you first, which is why I get, you know, I always kind of chuckle to myself when leaders come to me and they're talking about they want to do culture change.
28:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And from, and I'm not, I don't, obviously I take systems into account, but I'm not a a systems player.
28:40
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't do my work on systems.
28:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I do my work on the individual to then impact the systems while taking the systems into context.
28:49
[SPEAKER_01]: But I always say, I said, you know, how do you define culture?
28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And they'll come up with all these words.
28:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, you know, what culture is is basically a collective set of beliefs.
29:02
[SPEAKER_01]: That's what it is, right?
29:03
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the principles which are beliefs.
29:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's nothing to say that it should be this or it should be that.
29:10
[SPEAKER_01]: They are selected beliefs that you have said are going to carry you through as an organization.
29:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And really you as the leader or you as the leaders are the ones who set that tone, right?
29:22
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you haven't unpacked what are the beliefs that are
29:30
[SPEAKER_01]: How in the heck are you going to go through a whole culture change initiative with your team, the organization, et cetera?
29:39
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, beautiful.
29:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
29:42
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think, you know, as I hear, you speak, like I've heard someone say this, but you can see the beliefs you hold by the results you're getting as well.
29:50
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's right, reverse engineering, reverse engineering,
29:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You know what I notice is that that's what's cool about making these distinctions is you can see right away which ones do I feel, you know, I can get a hold of me, you know, and I think you can see how culture as well, culture kind of conditions as to behave in certain ways.
30:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
30:19
[SPEAKER_00]: we kind of absorb it as well.
30:20
[SPEAKER_00]: So gangsters don't know is, you know, I think it's a pretty strong cultural tendency.
30:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's a cultural tendency and, you know, we could talk culture in a big capital sea in terms of the culture that you grew up with, organizational cultures, but there's also culture in little sea, which is the culture of your family, right?
30:42
[SPEAKER_01]: The type of environment that you grew up with in your family and at the end of the day it comes back to what was valued.
30:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I think it's pretty interesting for me.
30:51
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this was a big one for me.
30:53
[SPEAKER_01]: This I need it done now.
30:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And I, I really have kids who are now teenagers late, I'll ask to call them young adults at this point because they're late teens, but they, they have taught me that that belief doesn't work.
31:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I literally think they were sent in this world to teach me that that belief is not serving me or anyone else will.
31:15
[SPEAKER_01]: I have one in particular who resisted that belief.
31:18
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'd said, I need to be done now.
31:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Tell your true life is the slower she would go, right?
31:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, but it came from somewhere for me, and unconsciously without even knowing it, I was trying to force it on my kids.
31:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So think about that translates in the workplace as well.
31:36
[SPEAKER_01]: We bring in these things that may be helped us.
31:39
[SPEAKER_01]: when we were younger or helped us in our new job early in our career, first-time manager, and then we carry it into these leadership roles that we're in.
31:48
[SPEAKER_01]: And the I needed done now comes from a place of thinking that if we can just get things off of our list, everything will be under control.
31:57
[SPEAKER_01]: At the end of the day, all of these beliefs are grounded in three things.
32:01
[SPEAKER_01]: They're grounded in the need to feel connected.
32:04
[SPEAKER_01]: They're grounded in need to feel safe, and they're grounded in the need to feel worthy or valued.
32:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and there's this underlying notion that if I follow through on this, that I need it done now, really is if I get it done now, I will feel safe.
32:21
[SPEAKER_01]: which is not true.
32:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It might have been true when I was younger and getting all my homework done on time was the key to survival because I knew that if I got it done on time then I could go out and play and if I didn't go out and play I would be devastated because that's what it felt like at the moment like I would die if I couldn't get out of play.
32:42
[SPEAKER_01]: But it doesn't necessarily work now when there are a lot of competing priorities and I have a team to manage and I have to motivate them and inspire them and that I needed done now is creating a false sense of urgency or even worse, a toxic productivity in the workplace, which as we know has very negative repercussions.
33:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's where again, it might serve us in one way and might not serve us in another, might serve me, yes, if I have a meeting that's in an hour.
33:14
[SPEAKER_01]: And I need to get that done.
33:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I need to kick in the belief if I need it done now.
33:19
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it's something that is not really relevant, I have to sign up for a race, right?
33:25
[SPEAKER_01]: That's three months from now.
33:26
[SPEAKER_01]: Why am I putting pressure on my admin to get it done right away?
33:35
[SPEAKER_00]: So, it's also hearing that, you know, the belief is affording a certain possibility and there's a cost to that and that's true.
33:44
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, because that I noticed that with this one too, it's like there's almost like another assumption behind it as well, which is that I'll get it.
33:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I'll get to that place where I've caught up, you know.
33:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And I've got it handled, but then never comes, you know?
33:59
[SPEAKER_01]: It never comes.
34:01
[SPEAKER_01]: It never comes.
34:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I loved in, um, I believe I'm so bad with things.
34:04
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's all for Bergman in the, um, his book on time right?
34:09
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes, yes.
34:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And this book before, uh, 44,000 weeks, I think it's all, I always want to call it 40,000, because I'm like overly optimistic about how long my life is going to be.
34:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, no, it's not 40,000, it's 4,000.
34:25
[SPEAKER_01]: But he talks about, I remember sitting here because this belief, like, literally was probably one of my number ones.
34:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And, but he talks in that book.
34:35
[SPEAKER_01]: He said, do you ever recognize that the more emails you send out, the more you get back?
34:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And you never really get out of that hole.
34:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And I thought to myself, and I read that book years ago when it first came out.
34:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh my god.
34:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, like, what is driving me?
34:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I literally had to turn S of stuff.
34:58
[SPEAKER_01]: What is driving me to respond to all my emails right away?
35:04
[SPEAKER_01]: As soon as I can, right, which is a version of I need it done now.
35:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I need the email done now.
35:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And I treated all of them the same way.
35:14
[SPEAKER_01]: Didn't matter if it was, you know, hey, Muriel, do you want to go to dinner two months from now to where's your proposal that was due yesterday?
35:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Quick response, right, it's fine.
35:23
[SPEAKER_01]: I needed done now.
35:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And what I realized is underneath what was driving me was some fantasy that I had made up in my mind that if I could get all my emails done,
35:41
[SPEAKER_01]: that my calendar would clear up, but I would have this spaciousness.
35:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was the furthest thing from the truth.
35:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It was actually quite the opposite.
35:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And so a lot of times these beliefs end up being counterproductive.
35:57
[SPEAKER_01]: The very thing that we want, they end up doing the opposite.
36:02
[SPEAKER_01]: But I believe the reason they'd end up doing the opposite is to teach us a lesson.
36:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And
36:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and when you can realize it, when you recognize, oh my gosh, this I needed the now is actually not getting me to be productive.
36:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's actually making me counterproductive and it's working against the very goal that I have.
36:21
[SPEAKER_01]: That becomes don't a motivation to change or to adapt a new belief.
36:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's a great point, I think, just like so, where are these areas of tension in our lives?
36:32
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
36:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Repeat to patterns of tension and what belief might be underpinning that to keep it in place.
36:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's different for everyone, right?
36:43
[SPEAKER_01]: It's different for everyone.
36:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you know, I was talking about my one kid and, you know, what she probably needs to pick up this belief a little bit.
36:51
[SPEAKER_01]: more often in order to operate in the world, you know, and, and that's fine.
36:57
[SPEAKER_01]: That's, that's her.
36:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, they're not, none of them are good or bad.
37:01
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just, which golf club do you need at this particular time, depending on what it is that you're trying to do with that ball?
37:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And let's pick up one more, which one do you think out of the seven that's, you know, an interesting one, they're all interesting, but yeah, that may be a good one to unpack a little bit.
37:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, the one that surprised me the most, I didn't think was going to be on the list.
37:30
[SPEAKER_01]: Because you know, when I started exploring them, I wasn't so surprised, right?
37:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they were familiar.
37:41
[SPEAKER_01]: so can you.
37:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And the reason why it was interesting to me or it surprised me is that mantra, if you will, is used in so many ways as being so motivational and inspirational, like I don't think anyone ever says that with malintent, you know, they actually say it coming from a place of
38:05
[SPEAKER_01]: motivation, right?
38:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Like if I can do it, so can you or if I can do it, I don't understand why they can't do it.
38:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Like what's the problem?
38:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And where we go wrong with that is assuming, right?
38:19
[SPEAKER_01]: There's so many assumptions packed into that belief.
38:23
[SPEAKER_01]: and the primary one being that it assumes that that person that you're believing or thinking that about has the exact same story experiences skills, capacity, situation, everything from day one of their life.
38:42
[SPEAKER_01]: Ten now has been exactly the same as yours.
38:48
[SPEAKER_01]: because if we believe, which is a belief, which you know, it would believe that everything sort of is cumulative, that there's cause and effect, cause and effect, cause and effect, that gets us to this particular moment in time.
39:00
[SPEAKER_01]: And we think that others need to be behaving exactly the way we are behaving and need to be doing things exactly the same way or don't understand why they can't.
39:12
[SPEAKER_01]: Then that destroys the whole formula.
39:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't work that way.
39:16
[SPEAKER_01]: and what the cost as a leader of using that belief universally, again, in some capacities it can work very well.
39:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But where it becomes a cost is when you are trying to develop and coach others, right, which so many leaders are trying to do, right talent management is one of their main responsibilities because you're not meeting the person where they are.
39:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not meeting them where they are to understand, I mean, this goes back to situation or leadership.
39:43
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not looking at them and saying for this particular task, what is your level of capability and what is your level of commitment?
39:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And let me understand it from that perspective rather than my level of capacity and my level of commitment and let me coach from there.
39:57
[SPEAKER_01]: So it gets in the way of being able to coach and develop effectively.
40:00
[SPEAKER_01]: It gets in the way of being able to lead change effectively.
40:04
[SPEAKER_01]: how the change curve, if you're operating from the if I can do it so can you, then you are automatically assuming that because you accepted the change and you're at the other end of the change curve then everyone else should be there as well.
40:18
[SPEAKER_01]: right, rather than meeting them where they are, which is they're still at the point of the Nile or resistance or whatever stage you want to be and you need to meet them there to be able to then lead them through the process in the way that you want.
40:31
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is the one that I was surprised with in terms of how it manifests itself and the cost that can be associated with it
40:44
[SPEAKER_01]: through organizations all the time.
40:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it even made me question how mentoring happens, right?
40:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Because so many times we talk about mentoring as this is somebody who you can learn from because of their experience and their stories.
40:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I myself have put together mentoring guys when I'm like, share your story, share what you did.
41:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But there has to be like really strong, bolded, asterisk.
41:06
[SPEAKER_01]: When you share your story, you share what you did to say, I'm sharing, but that may not work for you.
41:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So the follow-up question is, let's figure out what would work for you.
41:17
[SPEAKER_01]: If that's herbal.
41:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So that one is the one that I really, really was captivated with.
41:25
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I, you know, as you speak about this, I see how I do this kind of like in subtle ways and gross ways all the time, you know, like you gave the example and driving in traffic.
41:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just thinking about my daughter, you know, who, you know, in some ways, you could say like I'm creating a scaffolding for her to grow into, but a lot of the time,
41:53
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you should be able to do this thing, you know, I want you to be able to do it and you should do it too.
41:59
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a kind of disconnection from, you know, her actual capability in that moment and an imposing of a of a of a standard onto it.
42:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Like an adult standard with my own set of my own maturity and set of beliefs and I'm doing that to my life.
42:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And we do it all the time and we do it all the time.
42:22
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, and I really feel like, you know, this is about leadership or whatever, but I think there's so much to learn because the leaders were kids one day, you know, we were all kids one day.
42:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's where it all begins.
42:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think there's so much to learn from how we treat kids.
42:40
[SPEAKER_01]: in terms of understanding the behaviors that we have.
42:42
[SPEAKER_01]: So that is probably one of my biggest bug-up who right around raising or ushering children into adulthood is that we expect, you know, three-year-olds to act like adults.
42:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Like it's just not, they're not there yet, right?
42:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Like meet them where they are.
42:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I always think about the visual to me that best encapsulates that.
43:05
[SPEAKER_01]: As you can always see the difference between and the adult who will talk to a kid and they will stay standing up and like look down at the child versus the adult who squats down and meets the child where they are and makes eye contact.
43:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And that to me epitomizes whether they are in the mindset of if I can do it so can you which means they can stand up and they're basically telling the child rise to my occasion versus let me stew down.
43:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't lose my adulthood by doing that.
43:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
43:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just going to meet you where you are.
43:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can better understand how to get you to that skill that I'm trying to teach that does not change in leadership that does not change in leadership right you will still be a leader you will maintain your title you will maintain your authority you will maintain all the things even if you meet the rest of your team members where they are okay and there's so much power in being able to do that, but I think at the end of the day.
44:01
[SPEAKER_01]: people are so attached to their way that they subconsciously fear that they will lose control if they may end or over to the other side, which is not true, that actually takes more control, that shows more internal power, more authority if you're able to do that.
44:24
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I know it's very unique, but what do you find as, you know, are there other, you know, so the belief, if I can do it so can you, is there a common, you know, counter belief to that that feels what like it opens up the possibility for a higher order of leadership, is it something like, I'm gonna meet you where you are and we'll walk from there,
44:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there are a lot of reframes and one of the things that I all, you know, I tend to do with the folks that I coach it, I always let them own the reframe.
45:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
45:01
[SPEAKER_01]: I never want to describe here's the reframe.
45:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I can give possibilities, but I really want them to, and so I ask, you know, and what other ways can you think about this that would allow you to lead that change more effectively or have that conversation or develop the person.
45:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And what would you need to think, again, going back to the question, what would you need to believe, apart from this, that would lead or that would increase the probability of leading to that outcome, but to your point, I think being able to say, I can meet people where they are in order to get them to the goal is one, for example, if you can do it your way.
45:41
[SPEAKER_01]: is another.
45:43
[SPEAKER_01]: So they come up with different ones.
45:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what's interesting is underlying it is what would be the belief that you would need to carry.
45:51
[SPEAKER_01]: Going back to the example you gave for example about your daughter, you know what would be the belief that you would need to carry that would allow you to ask your daughter or ask that team member.
46:02
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it that you need in order
46:08
[SPEAKER_01]: what is it that you need in order to be able to meet that goal?
46:10
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're not letting go of the goal.
46:12
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just letting go of the approach.
46:16
[SPEAKER_01]: And even if they come up with something that's like completely ridiculous, at least it gives you a starting place to say, well, let's talk about whether that would work or not and whether there are other alternatives, rather to immediately going to, it's my way.
46:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
46:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So the other that's even more practical is, let me focus on the what,
46:36
[SPEAKER_01]: that this is, I mean, this is a key point of leadership and that if I can do it, so can you fall under that, right?
46:42
[SPEAKER_01]: We often, the way this manifests itself a lot of times is as a leader, you say, hey, here's what needs to be done.
46:49
[SPEAKER_01]: You set the goal, but then you're like, all over, like, it can only be done this way, because that's the way I've done it.
46:55
[SPEAKER_01]: where it's like, no, like, give your people a little autonomy and figuring out the how, rather than being so prescriptive in the way that it needs to be done, because you then start there, there are any type of capacity building that they could be doing.
47:11
[SPEAKER_00]: And so you talked about reframing, and so yeah, you let the client really come up with their own reframe.
47:19
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I'm guessing then it's just about experimenting with whatever reframe around a hidden belief.
47:26
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
47:27
[SPEAKER_00]: trying in small ways and be building on that gain in confidence.
47:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
47:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's like, OK, if you have that belief, what are the actions that can follow?
47:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
47:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Because we want to get to actions.
47:38
[SPEAKER_01]: This is not just about, you know, even though he started off this conversation by saying, oh, you know, this, what came up for me was that I was so action-wise.
47:44
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not to say that we don't we never go to action.
47:47
[SPEAKER_01]: It's more around.
47:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's make sure that we have an internal operating system that's going to support the actions that you're going to take.
47:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the last, you know, when so as I walk people or coach people through the belief, there's really three steps.
48:01
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the first is you have to uncover it.
48:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I think in the process of unpacking what I say is you're befriending it, you know, you're getting cozy with it.
48:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Why?
48:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So that you can recognize it down the road when it's coming up for you again.
48:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that you don't resist it because the more you resist it, you know, the saying goes, what you resist persists, right?
48:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And so the more you resist it, the more it's going to be fighting for its life to continue to exist because it's been there.
48:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean,
48:42
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, wait a minute, you know, I've been your favorite all this time and now you're kind of putting me to the side like let me get all the attention I can so you want to sort of be friend it and you be friend it just like you would be friend anyone you get to know it a little better right each you learn to understand that you learn to appreciate it.
49:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And with that appreciation, you can then say, I love you, but you're going to sit over there for a little minute while I go Do use this other belief for now.
49:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you can move to the last stage, which is the unblock, right?
49:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is where everybody wants to get to, which is where you reframe the belief and you move to action.
49:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And you say, what are the actions I can take as a result of this new belief, right?
49:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And that will support that belief.
49:26
[SPEAKER_01]: until it's not supportive anymore, and then I can use the same process for something else.
49:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I feel like these times are, you know, invitation into this deeper work on other beliefs.
49:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can see how, you know, there's a kind of collective set of beliefs which are collashing and it's not difficult to look too far out into the world to see this.
49:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And that, you know,
49:58
[SPEAKER_00]: actually looked a little bit more deeply at their belief systems in leadership around the world right now and yeah.
50:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I wouldn't have for you, you know, what do you feel?
50:11
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the questions we're left to explore on the podcast and you know as we're moving towards the last part of our conversation, do you feel that there is an invitation for coaches in our times with everything going on
50:26
[SPEAKER_00]: alive like what do you what do you know to sing out in the coaching field that really strikes you?
50:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
50:33
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I, you know, it's interesting.
50:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think there are a lot of different experiences that are happening right now in the coaching field and with leaders, right?
50:45
[SPEAKER_01]: In terms of the times that we're in, we just happen to be the way that it's hard for me to even describe the times that we're in.
50:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It just, in the most fast way possible, the only way that
51:01
[SPEAKER_01]: it's a lot, right?
51:02
[SPEAKER_01]: It's the times of a lot.
51:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there's a lot that seems to be happening at once that can cause a certain level of heaviness.
51:12
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I was just texting with some of my friends earlier today about an hour before we talked.
51:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of them was saying, it just feels like there's a lot happening right with our group, with in the world.
51:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And I responded and I said, yeah, I'm mindful of the way that we're experiencing a lot of heaviness.
51:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And what came up for me and I didn't put it as eloquently in the group chat is, if we have the capacity to experience heaviness, we also have the capacity to experience lightness.
51:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But it may take some intentionality and practice to find lightness when the world and everything around us is trying to really push us towards the heaviness, right?
52:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And so bringing it back to your question with coaches, I think that the work that I'm seeing some coaches do, not across the board, and not just coaches, I think just human beings is
52:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, either they're being very much caught up in the heaviness and then they bring that to their coaching.
52:25
[SPEAKER_01]: and project it.
52:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And quite frankly, I have seen that and I've had to have conversations with some coaches that I work with and mentor around being careful around how they do that because I do think one of the things as a coach professionally is really important is that we're not projecting any of our own stories and experiences on the client right the client owns that.
52:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you're feeling as a coach like you are bringing that, then you've got to take a step back and say in what way again, what what are the beliefs that I'm carrying into this coaching environment and what is the work that I need to do or shift.
53:05
[SPEAKER_01]: in order to be able to come in and do service for my clients in a way that keeps their experience, their experience, right?
53:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that number one, and then I think number two is, you know, beyond coaches, I think this is a paramount time just as it was during the pandemic, that even in these moments of heaviness, it doesn't preclude that there can also be lightness, right?
53:28
[SPEAKER_01]: It does not have to be one or the other.
53:34
[SPEAKER_01]: moments of lightness being keenly aware of when they are around you I took a walk the other day and you know it had been a particularly heavy couple of days for a number of different reasons but I took a walk and I intentionally said I'm going to find moments of lightness on this walk and I noticed things that I hadn't noticed before on a trail that I probably taken
54:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But that works for me, that might not work for somebody else.
54:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You own what that lightness look looks like.
54:09
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not going to be necessarily handed over to you on a silver platter.
54:14
[SPEAKER_01]: You've got to figure out how to make it happen.
54:17
[SPEAKER_01]: But in order to make it happen, you have to believe that it's out there.
54:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So there is an expansion of belief, right?
54:22
[SPEAKER_01]: That in the midst of the heaviness, the lightness also exists.
54:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And how do we bring that to ourselves as coaches?
54:34
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, there's so much in what you're sharing there, you know, that actually I think many of the capacities we need, you know, if we're identified with the heaviness and, you know, this happens to me, it can be a lot, like he said, and then it's consuming, you know, but that doesn't connect me to my greatest leadership capacities often, yeah.
54:59
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, as you were sharing, I was scanning a sense of how, for me, one of the beliefs that's been important is to recognize where I'm kind of in scones to this inside of an idea that this shouldn't be happening.
55:13
[SPEAKER_00]: And it happens, that's another one that happens like in micro and macro ways throughout the day.
55:19
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's like this sense that what's happening right now shouldn't be happening.
55:23
[SPEAKER_00]: And that puts me in a kind of opposition and resistance.
55:28
[SPEAKER_02]: That's right.
55:28
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's not to say that
55:31
[SPEAKER_00]: you know, everything that, like, everything's okay, that's happening around the world and you know, it was just be fine with it, but it's more how do I respond to it?
55:40
[SPEAKER_00]: And therefore, when I, for me, a belief of, um, this isn't in the way, this is the way, you know, that allows me to meet that heaviness from a different place,
55:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm somehow I feel that is an invitation, perhaps.
55:55
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's true.
55:56
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, Joel, I love that.
55:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Right?
55:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I love that.
55:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I think what you have hit on is really the premise of my book, right?
56:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Which is grounded in the, you know, the parable of the two arrows.
56:08
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the first arrow Buddha, you know, the story of Buddha asking the student is the first, if somebody gets hit with a, with an arrow is it painful in the student says yes.
56:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he says if they get hit, what a second arrow is it more painful, and the student says yes, and he says the first arrow is the difficulty, right, the pain of life, the second arrow is our response to that pain, right, that's suffering.
56:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what I'm hearing you say is the first arrow is yes, all these things are happening, they are happening, like we're not.
56:43
[SPEAKER_01]: crazy.
56:43
[SPEAKER_01]: They're happening, you know, shootings happening here.
56:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, name the list.
56:47
[SPEAKER_01]: All these things are happening.
56:49
[SPEAKER_01]: That's the first arrow.
56:51
[SPEAKER_01]: The second arrow is how we interpret what's happening, which in your case you said, these things should not be happening.
57:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not going to argue against you, but the question would be, in what way is that thinking, helping you or helping your purpose
57:14
[SPEAKER_01]: That belief absolutely helps because it helps drive them and motivate them to do the things that they need to do.
57:21
[SPEAKER_01]: And for others, it might be debilitating.
57:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It might be heavy, it might be so consuming that they can't serve their purpose.
57:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Pick and choose, right?
57:31
[SPEAKER_01]: But in my view, I think we could all live, and again, I work with leaders lead with a little more ease if we try to minimize the second era, right?
57:43
[SPEAKER_01]: If we just try to receive the first, the first is going to happen.
57:46
[SPEAKER_01]: The challenges are not going to go away.
57:48
[SPEAKER_01]: But let's try not to make them harder than what they already are, you know, by then firing the second arrow at ourselves, and that's where I think the power of beliefs come into play because a simple reframe of a belief can minimize or even destroy that second arrow.
58:09
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, beautiful.
58:10
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's it's a powerful
58:13
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a powerful, it opens up a powerful territory, doesn't it?
58:18
[SPEAKER_00]: To recognize that, it sends a possibility, and that's, I think, what it's baked throughout the book and what you're sharing today is opening up.
58:27
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think you've said this already, haven't you, that, you know, I sense a spaciousness and increased capacity to be able to respond to the complexity of life.
58:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and look, you know, I'm a business person, my background is in business before I even got into executive coaching.
58:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And at the end of the day, I mean, what are leaders called to do?
58:49
[SPEAKER_01]: They're called to take advantage and actualize the possibilities that are out there.
58:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's why we do strategy.
58:57
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we build businesses, right?
58:59
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why we innovate.
59:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, that's why we,
59:04
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, reallocate our capital, you know, we have a, we see the possibility of what's there, but in order to really take advantage of the possibilities and the potential, we've got to be able to expand the way that we see it or else we're always going to be walking down the same path, you know, and that to me is that the real correlation between what can seem like
59:30
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, these mindset, we will stuff and actually real business results, right?
59:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Real organizational results and at a higher level, just how we operate and lead in this world.
59:43
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think this is a great place to bring our conversation to a close.
59:47
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if this is with anything you'd like to share with our listeners that you haven't already said that feels, you know, feels important to say or let's ask you in a
1:00:02
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, we've covered so much and I always enjoy our conversations.
1:00:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I think, look, at the end of the day, I, um, this is coming from somebody who probably spent most of our life trying to control things on the face.
1:00:14
[SPEAKER_01]: At the end of the day, what I want people to recognize is, um, there's so much that's out of our control, but the one thing that we can control is the way that we think
1:00:32
[SPEAKER_01]: It would create such a different experience of how we operate and how we lead.
1:00:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And as I mentioned before, it could really open up the door to being able to experience leadership with a little bit more ease.
1:00:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And my sense is that if the leaders lead with a little more ease, it would just help everyone else in the workplace and otherwise be able to live with more ease.
1:01:01
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm into that.
1:01:02
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
1:01:03
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, um, where can we find out more about your work mural.
1:01:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yes.
1:01:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for asking.
1:01:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So, um, you can find out about everything that I've involved in at muralwilkins.com.
1:01:15
[SPEAKER_01]: And if you're interested in the book, it's available, uh, everywhere any at your favorite bestseller, a leader bookseller, leadership unblocked.
1:01:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Nice.
1:01:30
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks so much for getting here.
1:01:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Of course, thank you.
1:01:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me.
1:01:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Here we are.
1:01:35
[SPEAKER_00]: We're at the end of the podcast.
1:01:37
[SPEAKER_00]: Just a heads up again.
1:01:38
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coaches rising.com.
1:01:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Put your name in the sign-up box there.
1:01:47
[SPEAKER_00]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there.
1:01:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And just want to end by wishing you well.
1:01:56
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll see you again next time.