Latest / Coaches Rising / 270 - Emma Donaldson-Feilder & Liz Hall: Relational Mindfulness

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270 - Emma Donaldson-Feilder & Liz Hall: Relational Mindfulness · Coaches Rising

• 0:00
  [UNKNOWN]: Thank you for watching.
• 0:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Welcome back to the coaches rising podcast.
• 0:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Today we are diving into the topic of relational mindfulness.
• 0:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a topic dear to my heart and I feel it's part of this emerging wave in our field.
• 0:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: That recognizes the potency of us being able to meet the moment to support our clients to meet themselves.
• 0:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: on a deeper level moment by moment as the conversation unfolds and all the gifts that can arise from that.
• 0:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: So Emma Donaldson Fielder and Liz Hall will join me today and they define relational mindfulness as paying attention on purpose nonjudgmentally in the present moment while speaking, listening or interacting with others and it's about self-awareness, awareness of the other and awareness of the relationship.
• 1:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we'll get into how do they practice relational mindfulness with their clients and what are some of the benefits that emerge as they do?
• 1:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: A little bit more about today's guest, Semit Donaldson Fielder is a relational mindfulness and insight dialogue teacher.
• 1:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: a charted coaching psychologist, a coaching supervisor, and a charted occupational psychologist and has completed a doctorate researching the use of mindfulness and relational mindfulness in leadership development.
• 1:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Liz Hall is the founding editor of Coaching at Work magazine.
• 1:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's an award-winning journalist.
• 1:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: a leadership coach, a mindfulness teacher, and the author of books including mindful coaching and coach your team.
• 1:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So we are in very good hands today.
• 2:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: So that all being said, let's dive in here's the podcast with Emma Donaldson, Fielder and Liz Hall.
• 2:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: Great, so Emma and Liz,
• 2:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: wonderful to be with you both.
• 2:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be exploring a book you've written and the work you do as coaches, which I have a shared passion for the passion you have for coaching, how are you each doing festival?
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm doing really well, Joel.
• 2:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm so delighted to be here.
• 2:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just love the coaches rising, podcast, the training you're doing, everything you're doing.
• 2:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it feels a real delight to actually be with you.
• 2:42
  [SPEAKER_03]: Mmm, likewise, really.
• 2:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: Feeling good and very happy to be here and pinching myself, so it's a real delight and love the podcast.
• 2:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.
• 2:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, well.
• 2:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: this then it's great to have you your voices on here.
• 2:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, so we're going to explore relational mindfulness for coaches today.
• 3:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: You've written a book about this and I was really excited to see it.
• 3:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so let's unpack
• 3:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: that book, some of the big ideas from it, and then we'll see where the conversation takes us.
• 3:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe you could begin by saying, what you mean by relational mindfulness for coaches?
• 3:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: So, should I start this?
• 3:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so relational mindfulness is bringing mindfulness right into
• 3:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: the moment of speaking and listening, of relating with another person.
• 3:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's all that we know from mindfulness around bringing intention, attention, awareness, and it's taking it into the moment where we're speaking and listening with another person.
• 3:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's bringing that attention, but it's
• 4:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: a degree of sort of empathy into that moment by moment relating.
• 4:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, well, explicitly.
• 4:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 4:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the key things we're getting across in the book is saying, and this can be developed.
• 4:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: So this is something where we can build these capacities to really attend and be aware whilst we're in
• 4:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: speaking on listening mode.
• 4:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: We can actually practice that explicitly, so the book is based around a form of practice that involves mindful dialogue, so we're actually practicing mindfully in dialogue with another person and all the evidence from our experience and from the people
• 5:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: developmental process for coaches, helping them being more present, more aware, more compassionate, and more able to collaborate in a courageous way.
• 5:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: And the really fascinating bit is that, as we bring the combination of relationship and mindfulness, awareness together, there's a possibility for insight and wisdom and new perspectives and new understanding to emerge.
• 5:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: So then when we've engaged in that, for our development as coaches, we then offer that in our coaching encounters.
• 5:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: So we had one participant of coach who came on our programs.
• 5:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: You said, when I'm using relational mindfulness, I'm at my best as a coach and more useful to clients.
• 5:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: So is that rippling out?
• 6:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: Don't afraid to add anything, Liz, if you want.
• 6:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, I mean, I think for those of us who have an individual practice, well, have already noticed a whole bunch of benefits, you know, sort of leaking, Ripley was a better way, ripping out into our relationships.
• 6:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: But there's something about this sort of really taking it to a whole other level.
• 6:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's really important to say here, certainly that's been my experience.
• 6:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: And we all know how tricky relationships can be.
• 6:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we can be saddened, crocheting, feeling love and being tapping into the interview and all the rest of it and then we get off the crocheting outside of, oh, it's all gone to, you know, come to pop.
• 6:36
  [SPEAKER_03]: So there's something about this sort of real, it being really explicit about it and as you say in with those mindful dialogues, really sort of developing that muscle in the safe, mindful spaces.
• 6:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: which mean that we can then sort of bring it outside to other relationships.
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I think it's, well, very powerful.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: And another of the participants in the study we did for the book was saying, I don't know how I coached before, or relational mindfulness, because it just has that magic that comes in really when we're really able to be very present.
• 7:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah.
• 7:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: that's sort of a flavor, but I think we're both very passionate about it, so we should.
• 7:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: We could go on, Joel.
• 7:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, let's go on.
• 7:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's a great way to put it.
• 7:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, what, you know, you mentioned magic and, you know, how coaches feel like they're at their best.
• 7:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Could we unpack a little bit more
• 7:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: what's happening that makes it magical as opposed to other ways we might normally converse.
• 7:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what are you tapping into with relational mindfulness?
• 7:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: I want to kick off M and I'll add because I've got lots of thoughts as I've noticed.
• 7:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's something about awareness that is quite transformative.
• 8:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: really become aware.
• 8:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then you add to that the relationship.
• 8:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: So you're really being seen and you're really seeing another person or other people.
• 8:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: That combination is such fertile ground.
• 8:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's something about the level of connection that is created
• 8:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: through that, that enables us to open to different ways of seeing, but also the level of attention can open us and help us see some of our habitual patterns.
• 8:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: So there's this chance to actually have
• 9:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think the other piece is something about this is an in-body practice.
• 9:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I think in conversation we can get into being two minds and get very conceptual.
• 9:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: When we bring a mindful, a relationally mindful approach, we're drawing on the whole body-heart mind.
• 9:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: both helps, I think, create a transformation because transformation is that embodied shift, but also sort of supports,
• 9:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: the relationship to be a transformational space, so yeah, you know, there's absolutely you can add more.
• 9:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, I mean, big beautifully expressed and, you know, magic alchemy, there's something that just happens, you know, in these kind of spaces.
• 10:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think you know, you talk about being seen, seeing each other, there's something about tapping into the, the interconnectness as well, in these sort of encounters.
• 10:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: And yeah, as you say,
• 10:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: in these sort of encounters, you know, as a separateness, can drop away.
• 10:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: So there's a sort of tapping into our own wisdom and the others, but also tapping into sort of collective intelligence, which is just marvelous.
• 10:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I'm going like, this is my hands because it's quite palpable, you know, it's like, okay, really feeling into
• 10:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: field, you know, energetic field, something like that.
• 10:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's so special, isn't it?
• 10:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: Being listened to deeply, and we have other sort of schools of thought or approaches like Nancy Klein that sort of, you know, has explored this being listened to without being interrupted by someone who's really, really listening.
• 10:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: So things like that, that's sort of gift of
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, dating Megan's and used to talk about the late David and Megan's, so being given a good listening to, you know, there's something about that.
• 11:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: They listen to by someone who's listening completely, fully and completely present.
• 11:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, that makes it very special when you're the speaker.
• 11:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, but yeah, it's just, just, um, as you say, the insights can come.
• 11:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: And, and they can be very surprising.
• 11:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think that's, that's, that's one of the beauties really.
• 11:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: You get beyond the space where you're just coming out with the usual stuff and you're like, oh, wow.
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so yeah, very sort of can potentially be very transformational.
• 11:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 11:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So many questions bubble up.
• 11:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to.
• 11:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you remind me, actually, I've explored what is in the insight away, because we use that word, but let me ask this first, like, I wonder what you think about, you know, this is something we've explored on the podcast quite a lot, you know, this kind of shift in coaching that's taking place, and I think your work is part of that, where
• 12:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: There's a move from maybe more just talking rational exploration and it's a move into a kind of emergent-based presence-based coaching which
• 12:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: really this relationality is a key part of it in the sense that I think for me it might even be like this is like where evolution itself is taking place you know I mean that sounds very grandiose but that actually it's like life is emerging
• 12:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: through the conversation itself and that the coach and the person being coach can actually enter into a space within which this insight, this revelation takes place and that the coaching container is a kind of vessel in a sense.
• 12:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: And my sense is that even, you know, what we see now is there's chaos and complexity and that actually this way that you're describing is one way we can actually hold space and that the seeming chaos.
• 13:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it is chaotic, but that can kind of find a new order.
• 13:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, it can co-here inside of a conversation and coherence.
• 13:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: insight, revelation starts to take place.
• 13:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, well, I guess like you could just riff off what I'm saying or maybe there's a little question here around how do you situate your emergence of this practice for you inside of what's going on in the world?
• 13:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, so much to riff off actually led to, um,
• 13:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
• 13:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, there's something about being in these kind of spaces where at best, everything else, there's a tuning into what I'm folding to the emergence and all the rest of it and just somehow feeling in flow, which can feel it odd to really with what feels like the chaos, but I think you're absolutely, well, for me resonates that there's, that's a way of us being, being in these times and making sense of them, but they just stop.
• 14:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: trying to create order, trying to create structure and a surrender a bit more and go, go with the flow.
• 14:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's one piece.
• 14:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: And certainly through relation life and there's one of the things that we're practicing is just letting go of that resistance and releasing and all the rest of it.
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's that's one piece.
• 14:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: But I think these are really challenging times, aren't they really, they do feel very chaotic.
• 14:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: They are certainly very complex.
• 14:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think I don't think MRI would be a verse
• 14:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: getting on the, we need more evolution or consciousness, not bandwagon, but whatever, something or other movement, momentum, I don't know, but there's, I think these kind of conversations are very much needed because I think we do need to, you know, shift our consciousness and be better able to be with sort of, you know, ambiguity not knowing the confusion or the rest of it, so that's something about this being so appropriate and needed in these times.
• 15:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure I could go for sure, but Emma, who you want to come in.
• 15:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yes, there's, I couldn't agree more.
• 15:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's so needed.
• 15:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: The capacity to actually relate to one another without judgment, to hold the paradox, not to need to jump into.
• 15:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is right, that's wrong, but to hold the paradox and be able to listen to a complexity of different views and to
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: begin to generate some clarity around the nuances of all of that, and to bring a more connected sense to what's happening in the world that it's not.
• 16:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: them over there and they're over there and they're wrong and we can protect our bit.
• 16:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, we're all interconnected and interrelated.
• 16:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: And if we can begin to melt some of those kind of boundaries and see one another fully, somebody said on LinkedIn the
• 16:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's that sense that if we could be genuinely authentically together, then there's the possibility of collaboration of moving things of shifting ways of seeing to enable us to manage the complexity, though,
• 16:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: kind of volatility, the paradox, that this world is constantly throwing at us.
• 17:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 17:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, go ahead, Liz.
• 17:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's a good thing.
• 17:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's very much about having these spaces where we can be comfortable with paradox.
• 17:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's the thing, isn't it?
• 17:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's both about, it's, well, there are so many paradoxes that come to mind, but one being, how do we make
• 17:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: in these times.
• 17:26
  [SPEAKER_03]: But also how do we be more comfortable with the fact that maybe there's any meaning or that they can have a kind of lack of meaning in some way.
• 17:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't know, there's these spaces where we can just be sort of, you know, sitting together and just, yeah, just being really.
• 17:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: And not trying to put it all into some order.
• 17:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: So something around that was coming up, but yeah, lots of other paradoxes too.
• 17:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: So.
• 17:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think you're starting to point to some of the kind of key ingredients of what you're advocating for, you know, as you as I hear about, you know, kind of the particular kinds of spaces that you advocate for holding.
• 18:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: So maybe we go into that and that will kind of we can continue this sense of.
• 18:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: What is this revealing about what's at the heart transformation?
• 18:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I know you speak about Practicing here and that there's these key domains of pausing and allowing And openly could you say a bit more about You know, what are you what for you?
• 18:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you are when you're training Coach is about this work How do you start to point to the kind of Move or space we can hold?
• 18:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's key in that?
• 18:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: which I might dive in first, let's see.
• 18:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: So the practice we offer is based on a Buddhist practice called Insight Dialog, which was created by Gregory Cramer about the 20 or 30 years ago now.
• 18:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it has a long history and lineage going way back.
• 19:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: And the fundamental practice is actually one of being in Dialog.
• 19:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: So the whole piece around becoming mindful and we build when we were offering programs, we build individual mindfulness practice to help people really ground in their own present moment awareness.
• 19:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then we take that into a dialogue, so into speaking and listening with one another.
• 19:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so the relational is right at the heart of this practice.
• 19:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then
• 19:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: that relationship is held mindfully by a set of guidelines, which we can perhaps go into in a bit more depth.
• 19:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: So the guidelines hold a mindful meditative space within which this relationship is unfolding.
• 19:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then into that, for the formal practice, we drop a specific contemplation question.
• 20:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: So the practitioners are actually speaking and listening about a specific topic and that might be as simple as
• 20:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: naming what's arising moment by moment or it might have content that points the mind to something in the world, you know, how is it to be really listened to or what causes suffering or how do we discern when to speak lots of different contemplation topics and very often there's a separate speaker and listeners, so we're really practicing simply listening for part of it
• 20:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: And speaking without being interrupted from another part and then generally there'll be some shared practice where we're doing that dance of dialogue both speaking and listening sharing those roles.
• 20:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then we will expand from sometimes pairs to try ads to maybe some groups to the whole group of participants.
• 21:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: So we get to try out this speaking moment from the emergent moment.
• 21:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: and listening fully to one another in a number of different contexts.
• 21:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure there's a lot more we can unpack around that.
• 21:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just curious, do you also invite the coach to, and, you know, the coachy to reveal what it's like to be in connection?
• 21:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, so you're not just in relationship around a contemplation, but, you know, maybe the coach might reveal
• 21:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, this is what I'm noticing.
• 21:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sensing this in my body or yeah, those kinds of inquiries as well.
• 21:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: So at the moment most of the programs we're running it's it's coaches,
• 21:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: in dialogue with coaches developing their own skills rather than a coach and a coaching in that situation.
• 22:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: But obviously there's moments where as a coach you're kind of recognised that you're stepping into that listening mode.
• 22:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: and absolutely we do get participants to really take that meta perspective how is it to be in this mindful speaking and listening so that they're able to zoom out and zoom in.
• 22:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know if you want to add more to that.
• 22:32
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I mean it's quite pioneering stage in terms of all the potential for once the coach has become even
• 22:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: you know, more mindful than better able to sort of draw on these qualities to be relation one, how they might bring that into coaching.
• 22:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: But absolutely, one of the key capacities were developing in the programmes and you know, it is very highly experiential or the book is helpful too.
• 22:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Is that sort of crafty to self-experience and sort of notice what's going on here and absolutely to be sharing that with with the coaching when it's deemed, you know, helpful
• 23:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: and having that courage, I mean, there's sort of various guidelines we may get to, but we are sort of as part of this sort of, I think, fostering some courage, that discerning courage, you know, to be able to speak when something fails, this could be helpful for the relationship.
• 23:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: And indeed, again, you might get to the one that goes, other gods, but where we're sort of developing the capacity in coaches to be very aware of what's going on in their internal landscape, you know, the interiority piece,
• 23:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: and the sort of external and both.
• 23:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: So very much more nuanced the coach becomes in terms of you know what we would call the space in between kind of thing, you know what's going on here, what's going on there, what's going on between what might I name.
• 23:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think yeah again there's but there's lots of elements to it but I think absolutely.
• 23:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: The coach has so much more to draw on really in terms of data and being able to access the wisdom in the body, being able to access, I guess, as I was talking about before collective intelligence, you know, what's in the room?
• 24:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: What are we feeling here?
• 24:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do I name that?
• 24:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Do I not?
• 24:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: So we're much more nuanced, I mean, you know, stuff, Joel, but, you know, it's very much part of this work I would say.
• 24:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Would you agree on my
• 24:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I think it's worth naming that one of the guidelines that we offer as part of the practice is it's called open, and essentially it's about practising the art, not just the skill, I think it is an art of being fully aware of what's rising internally and aware of what's rising externally and of the context.
• 24:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: And the way internal and external are so interconnected, so I feel a little bubble of joy.
• 25:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: I smile.
• 25:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: I see something reflected in your face.
• 25:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: I see something reflecting your face.
• 25:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: I feel it in the body.
• 25:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: In relation to mindfulness, we are supporting
• 25:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: awareness of all these different aspects, and that, you know, we point to that very explicitly as part of the learning the guidelines.
• 25:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and yeah, no, absolutely.
• 25:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love what you're sharing here, because I think, I think this is especially with AI coming in, you know, I mean, we, I really feel this has been so powerful for me and
• 25:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: this capacity to attune on a subtle nuanced level to what's arising and actually I'd say it's like you really start to enter the transformational arena on a more kind of precise level when you're able to attune and attune to what's here between us what you're sensing with the client.
• 26:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that opens up this kind of space of like a transformational currency in a sense.
• 26:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you know, I think it's like where the client and the coach can start to have revelation and insight in the moment.
• 26:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, and it's like, oh, it's here now, you know, this is here now.
• 26:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So you can take that meta perspective on something.
• 26:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, um, and I think that's very Alpable and potent as a space to enter into, as opposed to just that talking about some issue in, as if it's not here right now and it's in some distant place.
• 26:50
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, in its practice doesn't it?
• 26:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: It takes practice to be able to drop out of our
• 26:55
  [SPEAKER_03]: skull-based, you know, brain into kind of, you know, heart-brain, gut-brain just to hold bodies as a sensory organ and tap into what lies beyond.
• 27:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think absolutely, I would definitely echo that at all, that that's very different, isn't it?
• 27:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: And insights can come up and surprise both of us, both parties.
• 27:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, yeah.
• 27:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: And the you mentioned AI, I'm perhaps
• 27:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
• 27:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, we've seen the research showing the digital coach, you know, the coach boxer, if they were assessed, they'd be assessed at PC level, ICF, PC level, or ready.
• 27:33
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so, you know, we need to sharpen up our game if we want to be a value.
• 27:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so, I think this kind of work that you're in favor of as well, Joel, or President's based work.
• 27:45
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think his stuff
• 27:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's something about presence-based being human to human, you know, that's that entire embodied human presence.
• 28:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: And also something about how when we begin to become more aware, we get more clarity around where we can offer challenge.
• 28:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's something
• 28:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: there was an article, Nick Bolton wrote an article here the day about how coach bots are likely to be more sycophantic, whereas a human coach has the capacity to know where challenge needs to be offered and to offer it with empathy and goodwill and in an appropriate way.
• 28:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: So there's
• 28:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: offers the opportunity for clarity of seeing and challenge and multiple perspectives and that I think is it's so needed and it's potentially where AI will fall down.
• 29:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: This is my inquiry around AI, which is, especially with a large language models, and maybe other types of AI will come to the foreground, and I've seen the guy who's head of the AI, kind of, in China, who actually moved from the US, and he's got a really critical of large language models as being,
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: capable of breaking through into a kind of more general AI intelligence.
• 29:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, the large language models are kind of looking back here, you know.
• 29:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I know they're quite mysterious in some ways, but
• 29:50
  [SPEAKER_01]: This sense of novelty and emergence that kind of rise between two human beings, two or more human beings is something very, very kind of, I don't know what to have to say, like unique to us, you know, it's like we get inspired together, you know, we get frustrated together, we
• 30:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: intelligence and information in that sense of feeling that emerges.
• 30:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I think there's actually a vast territory available to us, you know, if AI is going to do this sort of rational step-day stuff leaves a lot left over for us.
• 30:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 30:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe we can pick up on some of the other
• 30:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: kind of key ingredients of practising relational mindfulness.
• 30:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: Are there any, you know, we haven't named or, you know, yeah, I'll maybe keep it there and hold back my second question.
• 31:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I think, I think there's something about the by directionality of mindfulness and relationship.
• 31:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: So the more mindful of where present,
• 31:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: we are and the better we are able to be discerning the better the quality of relationship, I think it's fair to say.
• 31:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: But there's also something really important about relationship that will support awareness and mindfulness.
• 31:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: So if I come into a dialogue and I'm a bit agitated and you know a bit all over the place and a bit wobbly and I meet somebody who is able to hold a stable mindful presence, the likelihood is that I will calm down.
• 32:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: that we will support one another.
• 32:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: So relationship will help ground that awareness.
• 32:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, it might take us both into an agitated place and that's always a risk.
• 32:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: But if we are able to hold and as a coach, of course, if we're able to hold that sort of stable or wear presence, then we are supporting that.
• 32:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: and in our clients as well.
• 32:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: So that by directionality I think is something really important.
• 32:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's also something here about so if we if we're practicing insight and meditation and we're doing it in a solo practice we are the there is potential for generative insight.
• 32:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I think when we're with another person, that's multiplied.
• 32:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not just doubled, because as, then it's a bit like, you were talking about, you know, we get excited together or we get challenged together or whatever it might be.
• 33:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: But we also, you know, I hear your perspective, that sparks a thought for me and then I say something and that this building of a more multidimensional way of seeing things.
• 33:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think is one of the powerful pieces here.
• 33:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's something about the relational and the awareness, sort of multiply one another, Gregory Cramer would call it the relational multiplier, that is a powerful piece in all of this.
• 33:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
• 33:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think perhaps also to mention the compassion piece, seen as part of the relational capacity, you know, AI, above the moment, anyway, doesn't have, you know, a heart that it's kind of developing the muscle loss, I think the compassion piece is very key here, which is very much part of the relational mindfulness.
• 34:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: approach, but yeah, that's sort of resourcing that being able to get out of our own ways because we're not, you know, so, so critical, etc.
• 34:11
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think that's key because there's three foundations, I don't know if you wanted to say something about those.
• 34:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I've been talking quite a bit about the awareness foundation, but then there's the relational compassion,
• 34:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: and then there's the wisdom foundation which is can come in through a contemplation question but also arises through a sharing in the dialogue process, so I think that's important.
• 34:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think one of the things that I reliably see that all those does seem magical is how
• 35:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: the atmosphere shifts to one of much greater care and kindness towards one another.
• 35:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's this sense that by really coming present to one another, that generates a sense of, well, love.
• 35:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: between the participants, so translating that then into a coaching context, you know, the level of psychological safety that becomes possible, and the level of support that an individual feels, and support it to be themselves and grow the way that they can grow rather
• 35:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: developmental pathway that is imposed from outside, there's something about that kind of generating learning and transformation, as you said, in the moment, but for and with the individual collaborative process,
• 36:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that I think is important what you're showing, Emma, it's I think there can often be a kind of or or I'm I'm curious what you think about this.
• 36:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think I hear you saying it, but it's like there can a coach can come in with ideas about.
• 36:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: what they want for their client.
• 36:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we can have assessments, and even do assessments like 360s, and the danger is there's
• 36:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, I've been assessed on certain things and it's like, even if it's done really well, so often there's this like kind of painful feeling of feeling misunderstood on some level, even if there's a lot of nuance.
• 37:01
  [SPEAKER_01]: So where I'm going with this is that my experience is that the emerging structure of the client, you know, who they're becoming,
• 37:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: actually comes out of the inquiry, they're shared inquiry in the moment, rather than, you know, we're going to develop a set of practices which, you know, get us from where we are now to some imagined future.
• 37:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's not, say, practices are great and needed, but there can be this kind of
• 37:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think that actually acknowledges the complexity of how we grow and so there's a kind of compassion and an emergent, it's like the new revelation, the insight, then turn into the new structure, the new way of being up to client.
• 37:55
  [SPEAKER_01]: And on that resonates with what you're saying.
• 38:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 38:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: Totally.
• 38:00
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's beautiful.
• 38:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: Who were becoming?
• 38:03
  [SPEAKER_03]: Who were becoming moment by moment?
• 38:05
  [SPEAKER_03]: And we just don't know, do we?
• 38:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: and we can be we're being surprised by it because we're holding these kinds of spaces and having these kind of encounters.
• 38:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, and even when you were talking about the kind of trying to close the gap between, I guess for my body kind of contracting, it's like trying to put people in a box and according to this that the other words, a spaciousness of these other kind of encounters, then, just don't know.
• 38:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: And it's unfolding and we're, yeah, co-creative and generative and,
• 38:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: all the things we've been saying really, but it's just very different and the client doesn't know.
• 38:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: We don't know.
• 38:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: We don't know when it goes.
• 38:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's all becoming clear unfolding the moment.
• 38:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it's totally resumes, still.
• 38:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
• 38:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's something I think there's something really important about getting as much data as possible.
• 38:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: So feedback on models or whatever can be useful.
• 39:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: not taking that sort of some kind of fixed structure and certainly not taking it as a linear.
• 39:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think a lot of the developmental models of quite the linear, you've got to take this step and then this step and actually we know that growth and transformation is much more multifactorial than that.
• 39:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's something here about creating space and for all of those different aspects and nuances
• 39:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: yeah.
• 39:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: So if we just kind of zoom in, if I get a sense of like, I love this idea of like the openness you name and the compassion and emergence.
• 39:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm here and maybe you have an example but I'm hearing like, you know, there's a sense of shared presence with the, you know, the two
• 39:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: as they connect.
• 40:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's a kind of allowing a welcoming of whatever arises.
• 40:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like a kind of attitude, you know, an expanded awareness that kind of includes more and more of what arises.
• 40:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then inside of that container, that's kind of, you know, that's a very fertile container for
• 40:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: this unfoldment process to take place so that it was kind of you know there's a kind of generative sense to it all.
• 40:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah so without sort of naming anybody or giving sort of anything but I think clients can be much more vulnerable in these kind of spaces so I think that's something that comes to mind so I can think of quite a few examples where
• 40:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: because there's less judgment, there's more safety, there's more presence being, then being listened to really deeply, they found themselves sharing something from maybe from their past, really, they've made some connections with something that's happened to them in a way they haven't before.
• 41:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I know, we can say that happens in coaching, it's great when it does.
• 41:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's much more likely in these kind of spaces.
• 41:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, I can think of quite a few examples where that's happened both of us have gone, okay well that makes sense now for the other you know whatever else we were exploring so I think that's one thing and I think another thing is when I think of a particular that there's a plant might be keeping the virus cells very small
• 41:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we all do, we all have our hang-ups in that regard.
• 41:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Don't we, in parts, keeping a small, if we're thinking of IFS or something like that.
• 41:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: But when we're tapping into that idea of the interconnectedness, the kind of insight of, well, what is this really in service of?
• 41:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, what's the greater purpose here?
• 41:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so that's sort of, as unfolded a fair few times with clients.
• 42:01
  [SPEAKER_03]: And again, other coaches with different models will have experienced that potentially.
• 42:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: wine to more zoomed out, um, potential.
• 42:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so that, I think that was what you're asking some examples Joel, I may have gone off on a tangent, but Emma did you.
• 42:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I'm thinking of an example of somebody we're quoting in our book, um, a coach that says something like, um, you know, in a relational mind from the space.
• 42:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: you know, in a train of thinking or exploration and then I realized was possible, you know, it's stepping to the edge and then, oh, oh, there's another step or way of seeing to go, and Peter Hawkins loves to talk about, we step to the learning edge together and it's that sense of
• 43:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: collaborative support that enables us to step beyond where we thought the ground was.
• 43:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: So we're stepping out into unknown and perhaps more fertile territory.
• 43:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly.
• 43:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Do you see there are common ways coaches struggle?
• 43:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: And struggle can be a good thing, you know, I think that is actually where we're really starting to learn, but what are the ways you see coaches commonly struggle with this way of coaching?
• 43:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, well, that comes to my mind, is that initially I think coaches can think that this is, this is about stepping back and just listening.
• 43:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: and then because of the quality of the listening, they find that the client is now talking, talking, talking, talking and they get into a sort of now what do I do kind of place.
• 44:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I think there's something really important that the listening is
• 44:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: that actually, with discernment and with awareness, speaking is a part of the process.
• 44:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so helping coaches not just improve their listening skills, but improve the quality of their intervention.
• 44:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: So the two of the guidelines for relational mindfulness practice are
• 44:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: And one of the Insight Dialogues in the Insight Dialogues teachers likes to say it's also about listening for the truth and speaking deeply.
• 44:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: So it's that.
• 44:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's something about the brain together of the speaking and listening, and not just settling into listening.
• 45:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 45:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: Absolutely.
• 45:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, definitely.
• 45:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think it has to be very odd to you, as well.
• 45:20
  [SPEAKER_03]: Sorry, no.
• 45:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, great.
• 45:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, at least you could pick up on this on, like you said, like, listening for the truth and speak speaking truth, how do you do that?
• 45:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, what, what is that?
• 45:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, go for it and write it so you don't think very rich.
• 45:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the guideline as usually is listening deeply, but there is something here about listening and for what's fresh, what's true in the moment,
• 45:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: listening to what arises for us as the coach.
• 46:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: Just what did the words that they're saying ring true with their body language, they ring true with how I feel when I hear them, that whole piece about not just getting caught in the cognitive words concepts.
• 46:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: but listening with a wider angle blends and listening perhaps even to the context as well.
• 46:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I think that that that listening for the truth has a lot of different elements to it, but the embodied piece and the multiple lens pieces and it is a key part of it, the same all is.
• 46:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: yeah and perhaps to say something about speak the truth as well because I think that can be misconstrued but I think absolutely the listening food where they might not be congruent.
• 46:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: I can think of an example even yesterday I was in a mindful dialogue and I was sharing about I was a speaker and I was sharing about
• 47:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: you know, somebody or something that, um, where I didn't, in the presence of whom I didn't feel judged.
• 47:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I was sharing all these lovely things and it was actually about my late dog, one of my, my dogs that we lost.
• 47:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I was sharing all these lovely things that I felt and then my body and always,
• 47:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: and my partner who was listening could pick up something else because she's quite well immersed in this kind of more presence-based stuff.
• 47:28
  [SPEAKER_03]: And it was only when I said, and I'm noticing this kind of contraction, my belly is yearning because I'm missing this dog and she was like, oh, you know, and so there was something and she she was sharing afterwards that you know, as it as a coach, she would you know, we were two coaches, but you know, the idea would be to have named that and said,
• 47:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: know a Joel about sharing stuff and you know but I think that's really important that sort of the listening and noticing where there's a gap and and well I think perhaps and if you want to try and do just as a little bit to speak the truth I think it's worth unking some of the myths that might arise if people are just listening.
• 48:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah yeah so there's different aspects
• 48:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: truth aspect, and this is not just about what's factually factually true.
• 48:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: It is about that, but it's also about recognizing that this is about the truth moment by moment.
• 48:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what's actually true right now, not some sort of global v-truth, but what's true, what's true in this moment,
• 48:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: from that.
• 48:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: And at the same time, so in a coaching session, it might be about naming, but like this is what I'm feeling and this is what's true in my experience right now, where I'm just noticing an incongruence between your words and your body language or whatever it might be that's emerging moment by moment.
• 49:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: But there's also a discernment that happens about what to speak.
• 49:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: And is this something that I can speak with goodwill?
• 49:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is it useful in this moment?
• 49:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is it going to be heard?
• 49:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is it the right time to name it?
• 49:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: And is it said with a sense of skill and offering?
• 49:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so,
• 49:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're not just blurting out whatever's coming out for us.
• 49:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're not withholding either.
• 49:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're not saying, oh, I'm not sure if this is right.
• 49:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're making those judgment calls, which as coaches, we have to do moment by moment.
• 50:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't we, as judgment cool about where we add something and where we hold back and what's going to be the most skill for the useful in this particular context?
• 50:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is, for me, like, one of those, like, you know, use the word art, it's like, because in sense, maybe there's no end to the depth with which we can refine that capacity to listen and see truth and speak truth.
• 50:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I wonder what you think about the necessity therefore for coaches to do their own in a work, because my sense is that this is where we get into the territory where if we haven't done our in a work, we're actually
• 50:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, in danger of projecting onto our clients, getting all inside those needs, we have about who we are in relationship to the client.
• 51:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And actually, even we miss quite a lot.
• 51:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: of the informational field of our client, because we haven't integrated those parts within ourselves.
• 51:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the aperture of our lens is more constricted.
• 51:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: So this is, I think, you know, this is really the territory of maturity.
• 51:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, and it gets us even into an interesting place around for me, this is the conversation we've had a lot in our programs and on the podcast
• 51:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: boundary because a lot of coaches, sorry, I know I'm I'm like layering in like 10 questions and then going, but a lot of coaches are
• 51:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: They get scared when you start to get into this territory of like, well, wait a minute, they're showing their emotions and it's kind of connected to what happened at some point in their past and so is this therapeutic?
• 52:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so what do you, yeah, I'll stop there.
• 52:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: What do you think about the importance of the coach needing to do their own in a work?
• 52:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Really?
• 52:16
  [SPEAKER_01]: And what does that entail?
• 52:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: should I come in and then you build on it?
• 52:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it's absolutely essential, actually, that the coach does their in work and it goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on
• 52:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: and then I had therapy, I've been having therapy for a number of years with an internal family system, Sarah Ply, boy if I love those there.
• 52:53
  [SPEAKER_03]: And the other piece is the relation mindfulness, because actually it's only really when we're in relationship that we really see what the hell's going on.
• 53:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: So all those nice nice and opposed stuff that we've thought we'd love, but we know when it's come in the relational field.
• 53:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: So the relation mindfulness for me has been
• 53:13
  [SPEAKER_03]: because I can then see all my habits and befriend them.
• 53:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: So hello there you are again, you know, because they don't sort of run off and hide forever.
• 53:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: But you know, there's something about that building awareness as they unfold our habits, our patterns.
• 53:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: You know, our parts showing up in high area, you are again, you know, that's that's part of the work for me.
• 53:34
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think it's, yeah, it's very rich.
• 53:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Scary challenging all the things that I think totally essential and to speak briefly if I made to the coaches who are scared of this stuff.
• 53:46
  [SPEAKER_03]: Fair enough, I understand it can be very scary.
• 53:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think in the world where I is becoming so much more dominant, there is a bit of a challenge there for well, okay.
• 53:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: you know, what kind of coach you do you want to do?
• 53:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: And also I think it's this kind of a bit unfair.
• 54:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're doing a disservice to the coachy.
• 54:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think if we haven't started to look at some of our shadow stuff.
• 54:07
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, without being judgmental, you know, maybe they are sort of an invitation to, yeah, just sort of delving in a little bit.
• 54:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if I'm, yeah.
• 54:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: Before you, I just want to say something, Liz, to what you said, and I'll keep it brief in the book.
• 54:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think you are very kind, there, Liz.
• 54:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's like about we do a disservice to our client if we haven't done our chat.
• 54:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's, I actually think we shouldn't really be.
• 54:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I can fun.
• 54:43
  [SPEAKER_01]: if we're interested in going into any kind of depth and I'm talking, you know, not like the depths of the depths, but, you know, you just have to have matured, like you have to have been on that journey to some extent.
• 54:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: I feel quite fierce, I feel quite an advocate for that.
• 55:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, sorry, Emma, yeah, I think you were going to dive in as well.
• 55:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: Really, just to agree with both of you,
• 55:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: If we're going to go below a fullness coaching, we need to be on our own journey and to know what that feels like and to know that it's up and down and vulnerable and to be bringing that embodied awareness into our role as a coach and I totally agree with Liz that
• 55:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's never, it's not a one and done or even a several and done.
• 55:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: This isn't ongoing journey that we can be engaged in forever.
• 55:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so in a way that makes us a better collaborator, because if we're supporting a client on their journey, we're on our journey too.
• 56:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're able to speak.
• 56:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: with that awareness.
• 56:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: But also, hopefully, we've uncovered some of the land lines that might go off because we've brought the lens of whatever it is therapy, relational mindfulness, and there's the loads of different ways of looking at this, but we've uncovered some of the
• 56:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: the triggers and the challenges that we might and inadvertently bring into a coaching encounter.
• 56:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think also, you know, even being in groups as well, like what you're saying, each of you around, yeah.
• 56:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just find that such an important barometer of how am I getting on because one on one coaching being with another individual is one thing.
• 57:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, when I get into, you know, I love and find it challenging to get into groups where we're doing this kind of practice, you know, or where there's any kind of depth orientation because
• 57:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Man, it's humbling and it's vulnerable, you know, and it's an opportunity to bring like great compassion to myself and my process.
• 57:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: So I love that.
• 57:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's why group work is particularly out and as well.
• 57:38
  [SPEAKER_03]: Totally.
• 57:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think we want to do the go really go for a transformational encounter, you know, we have to have that a wider sort of repertoire.
• 57:47
  [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know where we have to add some of our work.
• 57:49
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think it was Julio and I, yeah, from Newfield, who said we can't only take our, or maybe it wasn't.
• 57:54
  [SPEAKER_03]: We're going to only take our clients as far as we've gone anywhere.
• 57:56
  [SPEAKER_03]: We only accompany them as far as we've gone.
• 57:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, and that we coach more wounds, actually.
• 58:02
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, there's something about who really want transformation.
• 58:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's the only way.
• 58:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
• 58:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I also think that you're pointing that Joel to the systemic piece and being able to see the complexity that arises in a system and I think group work is brilliant for that.
• 58:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: But there's also something about how we translate this into our day-to-day life.
• 58:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: I can't remember who said this, but there's something that, if you think you're enlightened, spend a weekend with your family,
• 58:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: that sense that, you know, all relationships are a learning field if we can bring enough awareness to them.
• 58:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so, yeah, groups, families, organisations, and they bring this into a bigger perspective.
• 58:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'd love to explore for a moment with each of you.
• 58:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: What's I get the edge of your practice right now, what, you know, could be anything really from a practice you're playing with to what you're experimenting, bringing into your coaching work,
• 59:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know, a training or a book you've read.
• 59:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just love tapping into, you know, I find coaches are often like really exploratory practitioners and what, what do you, what's kind of lighting you up right now?
• 59:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm both first this, good first Emma.
• 59:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so what comes to mind is,
• 59:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's sort of two different aspects, one of which is the sort of an internal aspect.
• 59:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: So like Liz, I'm now engaged in internal and family systems therapy, and so there's the whole internal relationships that I'm looking at between the different parts and
• 1:00:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: and holding those with kindness and care and how much more I can be in self rather than in a wounded part or a protector or whatever.
• 1:00:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: So that's really exciting for me and what that brings to all that I then do with clients and as I offer a relational mindfulness programmes and so on.
• 1:00:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: in emergence, but there's something here about moving this work into the field of conflict, the field of where things are really challenging, and learning, I mean a lot of people talk about how you get into a
• 1:00:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: particularly triggering relationship and all of this goes out to the window.
• 1:01:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: How do we, how do we really help people ground the practice and then take that explicitly into those more conflict-rid and polarised situations?
• 1:01:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because that's where I'd love to see there's so much misunderstanding polarisation
• 1:01:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: and shutting down to other people's perspectives happening in the world.
• 1:01:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm excited to kind of look at where could we take this?
• 1:01:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: What form would it need to take?
• 1:01:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because coaches kind of get this work that we're a lot of them do, but to take it into more challenging situations, how would we need to adapt it?
• 1:01:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then that I think the two need to go in parallel.
• 1:01:58
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I saw many things and I think as coaches we can get, you know, drawn into all sorts of directions.
• 1:02:04
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I think I'm thinking but I effects the internal family systems and forms me as well.
• 1:02:08
  [SPEAKER_03]: I do with that into my work.
• 1:02:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: I do that we've got a multi-picity of parts within us and I'm having some lovely,
• 1:02:17
  [SPEAKER_03]: sessions with clients where we're talking about their parts and working with their parts.
• 1:02:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: So that's one piece.
• 1:02:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thomas here was work around a two-month, you know, to anything that helps me ramp up self-asinstruments.
• 1:02:29
  [SPEAKER_03]: I'm interested in.
• 1:02:31
  [SPEAKER_03]: I do quite a lot of work with sort of activists, climate, just as social justice activists.
• 1:02:40
  [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm starting to do more and more of that sort of group coaching and one-to-one coaching.
• 1:02:44
  [SPEAKER_03]: And one of the things I was thinking about the other day was sort of creating some kind of program relief for young, young-ish people, not not activists necessarily,
• 1:02:59
  [SPEAKER_03]: collapse, something that, you know, supporting people to be young people to be in these complex times and that will involve some drawing on all sorts of things, including relational mindfulness, obviously, and compassion, compassion, focus, coaching.
• 1:03:15
  [SPEAKER_03]: And the other piece that's quite tantalizing, and this is the usual by the edge.
• 1:03:19
  [SPEAKER_03]: So this is so much at the edge, I don't quite know
• 1:03:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: what it looks like, but it's, you know, I'd already work with constellations about it, but it's something about the systemic peace, maybe shamanic, a bit something about that, but there's something about, you know, this idea which was very alive for me at the moment, that when we do our own what we're doing, our own work on behalf of the system, and that being sort of ancestral as well, and all sorts of stuff like that.
• 1:03:48
  [SPEAKER_03]: So it's there's something about really zooming
• 1:03:52
  [SPEAKER_03]: Um, I don't quite know what that would look like in my couch, but it's that sort of really zoomed out piece, um, deeper time and, and a list of it that, uh, yeah, the idea of transformation being possible, um, beyond, um,
• 1:04:12
  [SPEAKER_03]: you know, a particular encountering the moment but something about sort of tapping into all sorts of beyondness.
• 1:04:18
  [SPEAKER_03]: So, when you ask that question, Joe, are we going to take you to the edge?
• 1:04:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's not always fully formed, is it?
• 1:04:23
  [SPEAKER_03]: It's fairly clear.
• 1:04:24
  [SPEAKER_03]: But it's exciting, me.
• 1:04:25
  [SPEAKER_03]: That's for sure.
• 1:04:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think it taps into something each of you said actually.
• 1:04:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I, because it's something we're talking about as well, which is, you know, and I know Peter Hawkins, you're connected to it's a way of wrote it, wrote it, roughly, recommendation of your book and, you know, this idea that in a sense like,
• 1:04:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's like life is inviting us to come together.
• 1:05:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: rather than I'm coaching you, what do you want to work on today that there's a sense of life is wanting us each to come together in relational, in relationality, to co-evolve, and if you add with that, that we're moving out of a materialist paradigm, which talking about parts, I think
• 1:05:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: we've come from a paradigm of, you know, reifying everything as if like the world is just material and we look at it through a microscope and we can look at it fixed part, you know, and in a way that's disconnected from everything else and there's an explosion of interest
• 1:05:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: post-materialist territory, you know, spirituality, and my sense is like that's really a leading edge, you know, like working with the energetic field of transformation, ancestral energy, and
• 1:06:05
  [SPEAKER_01]: you know that there's this intelligence of life really that's really mysterious way more mysterious than we acknowledge and that yeah I think there's it I might my guess for the future is that as coaches as practitioners were being invited to refine that self as instrument so we can perceive on more and more subtle levels
• 1:06:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: that informational field and old and wide enough container that, um, you know, there's a kind of alchemy taking place and we're working in a kind of shaman it.
• 1:06:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: then stability.
• 1:06:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I love that, I love you point to that.
• 1:06:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think Emma work context with what you were saying as well as that conflict as an evolutionary tension inside of it, and that we can actually hold that in a way that will tap into this evolution more directly.
• 1:07:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: So
• 1:07:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
• 1:07:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: And there's something about bringing in some of Ian McGill-Christ's insights as into this as well, that we've got to caught in that left brain, you know, instrumental, seeing quite a narrow perspective and and can we as coaches help our clients and thereby help the wider world and step into and more right hemisphere more integrated and
• 1:07:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: Dan Siegel, you know, and we, well, we're in a much bigger view and can collaborate towards that.
• 1:07:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think this is why, and of course, I don't know what's going to happen and I'm careful about
• 1:08:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: saying that certain things should be the way it will be because, you know, there's dangers in that.
• 1:08:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's really like what I'm passionate about.
• 1:08:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, if I'm really honest, it's like, but it, like, these kinds of practices you've been advocating for today are the kinds of practices that actually equipers to kind of move into the territory that in the Gilkrist and Dan Siegel or pointing to, you know, where we tap into a different
• 1:08:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: It almost like a different way of seeing who we are, what it means to be human and the way we collaborate and a different kind of creativity and insight comes online.
• 1:08:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, that's why I'm really, really delighted you're articulating this path.
• 1:08:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I don't know if there's anything you want to add as we move to the end of our conversation.
• 1:09:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think Liz and I both really believe that this is something that coaches can gain enormous benefit from.
• 1:09:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: And so we'd love to see it ripple out in the world.
• 1:09:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: And through coaches, you know, ripple out to their clients and beyond.
• 1:09:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: So something we believe
• 1:09:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: piece.
• 1:09:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: But there's something much more magical about actually practicing it.
• 1:09:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: So we do offer programs where people can come and we can guide them in the practice and they really get an experiential understanding of what we're talking about.
• 1:09:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because words are only ever going to convey concepts and this happens that are a much more embodied level, not just
• 1:10:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: body hard and mind.
• 1:10:06
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, totally.
• 1:10:09
  [SPEAKER_03]: And just to say it's I think we're living in challenging times.
• 1:10:14
  [SPEAKER_03]: I think I feel so uplifted and sort of you know it's fired and the rest of having come on this podcast.
• 1:10:21
  [SPEAKER_03]: And I think we need that.
• 1:10:22
  [SPEAKER_03]: We need to be in community and we need to be relating and connecting in different ways in these times.
• 1:10:27
  [SPEAKER_03]: And then it does feel magical in our chemical and why not, you know, bring it up and got this we can we can tap into these ways.
• 1:10:35
  [SPEAKER_03]: And so, but yeah, I think just to build on what I'm saying, you know, it is very experiential this stuff.
• 1:10:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: So,
• 1:10:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: hopefully we transmit some of it and in fact I was saying to someone already I'm going on a podcast later and actually what I'd really like to sit in silence for a couple of minutes and then people can feel it and I think you know I wouldn't have been enough but you know because words yeah words are words right they can be helpful or not but yeah just to come practice with us and try stuff out will be a really heartfelt invitation.
• 1:11:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: And we're really looking to build a community around this, so get in touch, you know, that we've got a, we've got a joint website relational mindfulness.net and you can, you can join up and contact us and we're really up for dialogue around what people are hearing and where, you know, where this might be a support to them.
• 1:11:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, beautiful.
• 1:11:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just where can we find out more about the book and your community and the work?
• 1:11:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the books available, I think with all good booksellers as they say, and the website that goes alongside the book is relational mindfulness or one word dot net.
• 1:11:57
  [SPEAKER_03]: and the book is relational mindfulness for coaches in heart team presence awareness wisdom compassion and courageous collaboration and it's yeah, through all good books as you say and wrap published by route-litch.
• 1:12:10
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, there's loads of resources on including free resources and stuff like that on the website.
• 1:12:16
  [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, all of welcome.
• 1:12:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks.
• 1:12:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks Liz.
• 1:12:23
  [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks Emma.
• 1:12:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Really enjoyed our conversation today.
• 1:12:27
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, just best wishes with it all.
• 1:12:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: Thank you, Joel.
• 1:12:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's be in a real pleasure to stroll along this journey together.
• 1:12:37
  [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, totally real pleasure and privilege.
• 1:12:39
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Joel.
• 1:12:41
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you Emma.
• 1:12:43
  [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, Liz.
• 1:12:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: Here we are.
• 1:12:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: We're at the end of the podcast.
• 1:12:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: Just do a heads up again.
• 1:12:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not on our mailing list and you want to stay in the loop about other things we create, then head to coaches rising dot com put your name in the sign up box there.
• 1:12:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: You'll also find some of our other offerings online trainings for coaches there and just want to end by wishing you well and I'll see you again next time.