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Transcript

STSE #79: Looking for the Joy · Sometimes There's Side Eye

• 0:12
  Welcome to Sometimes There's Side Eye, a podcast about two
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  friends having real and unfiltered conversations about
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  dogs and people listen as we talk about our lives with dogs,
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  training, behavior, share some laughs and a whole lot of
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  banter. I'm Heather.
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  And I'm Christy. What are we talking about this
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  week, Christy? This week.
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  We're going to talk about when things look pristine and awesome
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  on social media, but you got to take a deeper dive.
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  You got to look a little bit beyond the surface level of
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  what's being shown to see what's really going on.
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  Oh my goodness. Just just set it up.
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  Christy, tell us what it what happened?
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  So was it you? Did you send me?
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  That I did. So Heather sent me a video with
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  more than a dozen dogs, I would say in clearly some sort of
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  boarding facility, and they're picking dogs 1 by 1 and all the
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  dogs are sitting calmly or laying down.
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  And then they're putting leashes on different dogs and walking
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  them on loose leashes to treadmills and watching it, it,
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  it looks like a beautiful thing, like dozens of dogs or, or at
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  least a dozen dogs being so well behaved and just, and they're,
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  they're clearly flexing that this is, you know, this is what
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  they can do for you and this is how they train dogs.
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  But Heather and I saw something very different.
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  We saw dogs who had given up, who had no personality left, had
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  really been trained out of them, beaten out, who knows, you know,
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  forced out of them, so that they were really just robots at that
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  point. And there was no enjoyment in
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  their work with the people. There was just obedience.
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  And it made me so sad to see. And what we thought, though, was
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  I. I told Heather, It's so
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  impressive on the surface, if you don't know anything about
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  dog behavior, it's so impressive to see someone so in control of
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  so many powerful breeds at once. But underneath it, it's really
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  disheartening. I think OK, so I originally saw
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  it on a page of a dog trainer who was being snarky and said,
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  you know, like. Yeah.
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  Like, oh, look at this control or something like that.
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  And so I watched it and I was like, I see no dogs being dogs
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  and I see no joy. And it one thing that I just
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  have to say is an aside anytime that I see someone snapping at
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  their at a dog as a cue. It's not like a metaphor, like a
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  physical, like. Like an actual snap.
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  I just see Cesar Milan. I'm sorry, that's exactly what I
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  see. And it is a do I think that
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  there are trainers out there that I agree with their methods
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  and that they could use snapping as a cue?
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  Yes. Do I think that the average
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  person who is using snapping as a cue is training the way that I
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  think is kindest to dogs? No.
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  So I immediately was triggered by the snapping immediately.
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  And then it's like, OK, so let me back up.
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  One thing that Christy said, it actually started with the dogs
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  coming into the person and the person asking for the sits or
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  the essentially they were asking for the dogs to stop motion.
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  And it seemed to me that if the dog gave a sit or a down, either
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  was acceptable, but that they need, they couldn't just stand
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  there. They needed to like do some sort
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  of behavior. And so part of asking for that
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  behavior was this whole snapping sequence.
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  And I think I said to Christy when I sent it to her because
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  the places in California, I was like, oh, is this what
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  California dog owners are looking for?
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  Something like that snarky as well.
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  And Christy, because while we are not good at us seeing other
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  perspectives in our own brains, we are good at telling each
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  other's brains to. See.
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  We're good at the other one being judgy and pushing.
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  Back. Yeah, we're good at that.
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  Chrissy immediately came back and said, like, well, don't you
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  think the average dog owner would see this video and be
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  impressed and be like, oh, I want my dog to go there and
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  behave like this? And I was like, oh shit, why do
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  you have to take my snarkiness and, like, make me have to
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  behave? I hate this, but really I think
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  the reason why we wanted to talk about it is because it is the
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  antithesis of where we are as dog owners and how we want our
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  dogs to feel and live. Do you think that's fair?
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  Yeah, yeah. And I do think right after you
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  had sent that or maybe right before, my manager and I had
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  been talking about dog stuff. And he said that he and his
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  friend share dog videos, videos of their own dogs.
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  And and his friend said, oh, you're treat training your dogs.
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  Yeah. And he said, well, you should go
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  to my trainer. He's like, I can walk around
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  Home Depot with no leash and my dog never leaves my side.
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  OK, so I and my manager's like, isn't that so impressive?
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  And I said, well, it depends on how he got there, honestly.
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  And he goes, what do you mean? I said just because somebody
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  arrives at a destination doesn't mean they're driving was
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  impressive to get there. You know that's.
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  A good metaphor. And so we talked about that.
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  I said I'd much rather have a dog who occasionally dogs on a
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  leash in, but we have a relationship than a dog who is
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  militant to me. Yes, I completely agree.
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  It's it's interesting too, because I think that your
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  perspective on how much dogging that you're willing to accept
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  agree to not care about also depends on the dog and where
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  you're at in your relationship with your dog and the dog's age.
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  My husband and I were saying just this week, I I Tiago is a
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  very obviously attached dog to me and generally very obedient.
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  But as the years go on, there's a bit of middle finger to me and
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  never I know right. And I here's the thing, though,
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  like my husband and I are very senior dogs will seen your dog
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  and like you like there's a lot of allowance there.
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  If you're not hurting anyone, If you want to blow me off because
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  you're nine years old and like, you know better, like go on with
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  your bad self. Trin at 2 is not allowed to blow
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  me off, but Tiago at 9, Tater at 9 y'all.
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  Well, tater's always blown me off, but Tiago at 9 is allowed
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  to blow me off. And so I had like said to my
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  husband, I go, do you do you think that he didn't hear me or
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  did he just like totally blow me off and chair?
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  Was like. No, he literally gave you the
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  middle finger. Like I do think that there's
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  stages in life, but that's an aside at this point.
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  These dogs were literally they looked like little, like a
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  little militia. They looked like this militant
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  like let me snap at you and you will.
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  It was, it was so sad. And there was like a moment that
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  one of, I think it was a little pity showed a little bit of
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  wiggle, yeah. And I was like.
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  Oh, there's some life in there. And it was immediately
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  corrected. And like, nobody wiggles, nobody
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  has fun. Yeah, yeah.
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  And I'm like. Oh, the joy of a dog is part of
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  that is the dog's joy. Yeah, but don't you agree that
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  you have to have that mindset? That is a mindset that is a
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  paradigm shift. Me when I maybe 10-15 years ago,
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  maybe last was like I will have a dog, I will have a dog and
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  when I am on a walk with them, they will obey.
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  And versus me today where there are times where I'm like I'm
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  getting my steps, you need exercise, we're off.
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  But there are parameters that my dog understands when we go out
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  to go on a walk. This picture means we're out to
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  get a walk and get steps. When the picture looks like
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  this, then we're out for a leisurely La La la.
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  You smell all the things and pee on 75 spots.
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  And I do think I do think that those two different pictures are
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  really important because the dog that it's understanding and
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  communication to the dog. But me maybe 10 years ago I I
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  can't remember if I was militant when Tiago was young.
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  I feel like more than I am now, but way less than that video.
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  You were never at that video. Level no, no.
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  But it is a paradigm shift to see the silliness and see the
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  goofiness and see the quote UN quote misbehaving and laugh at
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  it. Yeah.
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  And accept it as part of the joy of owning A sentient being that
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  lives in its own world, parallel to us.
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  Right. Yeah.
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  I also think sometimes people see obedience competitors or
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  videos of them and think that that's how the dog lives full
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  time and that's not and I think that's kind.
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  Of some do, some do. Yeah, that's sad.
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  It is sad. That is sad.
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  That makes my heart sad, but I think like and that's kind of
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  what that video looked like kind of strict obedience kind of
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  situation. But a lot of times even in
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  obedience, there's some bounce and some excitement.
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  There was no excitement in this video.
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  There was no bounce. There was just very controlled
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  movements. But even if, even if there's
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  some balance and excitement, whatever, I think what people
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  need to know is maybe some of those dogs live that way all the
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  time, but a lot of them don't. A lot of them are competing.
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  They know they're competing. They're doing it for this amount
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  of time and then they get to go back to being just a dog.
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  If you know what you're looking at, you can watch obedience
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  competitors and you can tell the relationship that they have with
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  their dog and whether there is a foundation of joy or there is a
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  foundation of you will obey, you can actually tell it.
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  And very many yes, I mean, take you will obey.
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  However, like I'm not, I'm not talking about methods.
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  I'm talking about you will obey whatever that looks like, you
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  know, whatever methods they're using.
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  And it is interesting to me to watch that when I watch
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  obedience, and this is competition obedience that we're
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  talking about. But even obedience around the
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  house, right when you watch a dog that has been squelched into
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  obeying, it looks very different.
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  I follow and we've talked about her before and behaviorist who
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  has Rottweilers, border collies and a Stafford and she talks
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  about and she is extremely competitive in every sport she
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  tries. But watching her dogs compete in
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  obedience with her actually makes me emotional because when
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  you watch them, obedience is extremely controlled.
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  And if you've never watched it, just go on YouTube and look up
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  obedience competition title BN like B as in boy, N as in Nancy,
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  that's beginner novice or CD as in companion dog.
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  Just watch what that looks like and see how controlled it is,
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  how the movements are super controlled and what you're asked
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  to do is super controlled. But when you watch this person
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  like run her dogs in formal obedience, I, I'm not kidding
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  you, I tear up almost every time because the joy that is exuded
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  in that relationship is so incredible.
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  And she's top level competitor. But her, her dogs and her are
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  joyful. You can be accurate and joyful.
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  Yeah, and you know, that same week that Heather sent the
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  video, I sent her one back of somebody I follow and his
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  Pitbull is Gigi. And it's sweet Gigi.
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  Oh. Yes, it was so sweet.
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  And watching him do obedience with his dog, and it's not
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  formal obedience, but it's, you know, he works with her in
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  public. He makes her downstay.
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  He he works with her. He has her and a Malinois.
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  And he works with them differently because they have
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  different needs. Yeah, but her obedience is on
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  point. And yet she is so joyful.
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  Yeah. And I think a lot of times we
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  say, well, you can't have super obedient dogs.
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  I don't know. I think there's this misnomer of
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  like you, if you make your dog obey, you can't have joyful
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  dogs. Like if you have a well, let me
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  try this again. If you have a well behaved dog,
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  they're not joyful. If you have a joyful dog,
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  they're not well behaved. That the two don't intersect and
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  they do. Yeah, but I also think that
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  that's understanding that a joyful and obedient dog isn't.
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  That also doesn't equal control like an obedient and joyful dog.
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  You are. You are in a fluid relationship
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  with that dog and you have a partnership.
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  Yes. It is not about control.
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  It is about a partnership. I don't want at this stage of my
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  life, I cannot imagine not having a joyful relationship
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  with the dogs that I live with. It does.
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  And that doesn't mean you don't get frustrated.
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  What like listen to this podcast like.
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  A relationship relationship. We're still 2 beings, right?
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  But I I can't imagine doing the things that I do with my dogs
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  and being focused on control and being focused on obedience
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  versus joy. The joy brings so much more.
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  And here's the thing, you will still get to the same place if
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  you put in the work. Yeah.
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  Like Christy said, your journey will just look different.
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  Yeah. Do you think that breed has a
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  relevance in the amount of joy? Like when you think about dogs
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  that you see, you know what I'm saying?
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  Yeah, I do, but not in necessarily the way you would
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  think. Tell me more.
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  I think there are more serious breeds, and that's not to say
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  every dog in that breed is serious, but the overall arching
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  theme of that breed might be more serious than goofy or
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  playful. But I I don't think I would say
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  Jackson has learned to be more silly.
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  He was very serious when he came to me.
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  I would agree. He's still serious sometimes.
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  He still wants to be a serious dog.
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  And when we're working, he's serious.
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  Yeah, but we had to learn the the play aspect, the silliness
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  aspect, and I think with someone else he could have just been
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  serious all the time and he would have been fine.
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  I don't know if you remember, but one of the things you said
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  to me when you're trying to figure out if you were going to
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  adopt him, was he was too serious for you.
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  Because. After Lucy, right?
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  Lucy was a comedian. Oh, such a comedian.
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  Yeah, it's part of what attracts me to bully breeds of any
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  variety is the silliness. Yeah, Yeah.
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  I think it's really interesting because so I've been working
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  really hard on my relationship with Trin, as you know, and
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  we've been making a lot of progress and a huge element of
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  her and I communicating better, bettering our relationship and
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  in the end bettering my trust in her.
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  And her quote UN quote, obedience is play.
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  So I think about that and I'm like, well, she's like a silly
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  dog in a lot of ways, right? And what the fuck?
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  She's a Frenchie. Yeah.
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  But she wants to play with me. She wants to interact with me in
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  a very physical way. And playing with her has added a
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  very positive element to our relationship.
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  But within that play, I am asking her to quote UN quote
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  obey. So we're playing right, We're
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  playing tug. It's very it's very physical.
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  I push on her. I like Tapper sides.
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  I want her to growl at me. I'm growling at her like all
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  this. And then I'm throwing a toy for
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  her to fetch. And so I'm asking her to release
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  the toy. When I say I'm asking her to
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  down sometimes I'm asking her to like do different things,
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  throwing that all in right. But the excitement of the joy
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  and the play bleeds over to excitement in the quote UN quote
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  obedience. So it's interesting to me,
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  'cause she is the first, not the first dog, but the first dog.
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  I have actively employed play as part of building our
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  relationship. And so it's interesting to see
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  how play and her being obedient can work hand in hand.
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  And so there's people who'd be like, oh, you can't do that.
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  Like they need to be serious all the time.
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  And I would counter and be like, absolutely not.
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  Yeah, absolutely. Not I would say play would have
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  been really useful for Lucy. Like, I never trained with play,
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  but I do think she would have loved that.
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  Jackson, if he's in a serious situation, he doesn't want to
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  play. He's like, he's like, could you
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  knock it off and pay attention to what's happening right now?
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  You're about to compete. Like yeah, you need to get your
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  shit together, girl. Yeah, well, and I told you, I
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  tried to play with Trin at work practice and she was like, no,
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  ma'am, when we're like we're playing at home, her one-on-one
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  and it's like play wrapped up into a training.
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  But like out, like in competition, she's like, no, I
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  have my game face on right now. I'm not interested in doing
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  this, but right. That makes sense.
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  Yeah, the. Play is reinforcing the in
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  between commands and making me be able to live with her easier
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  because it it puts so much value in that in those cues that I'm
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  like wrapping up into the. Play Yeah.
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  Which I think makes for a happier dog like for her.
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  Yeah, you had to know your own dog.
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  For sure. What they feed off of what I
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  mean, Lucy really fed off of laughter, so that was
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  unfortunate for. Me.
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  It was wonderful. For everyone else, when you do
• 21:25
  the promo reel for this episode, can you please include the clip
• 21:30
  of Lucy tossing the rally signs? Please.
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  Absolutely everyone must see it. I think though it's, it is
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  interesting. So I would say that as always,
• 21:44
  perspective is very important. So when you see something on
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  social media that initially you're like, oh, that's fancy or
• 21:51
  oh, that looks flashy or oh, look at what they're doing.
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  I I would, as always, encourage you to look at what does the dog
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  actually look like? Yeah.
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  Is the dog enjoying themselves? Is the dog.
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  And maybe, you know, sometimes you just have to behave and you
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  don't get to enjoy yourself. But does the dog look defeated
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  because of Ask Novay? Well, then maybe that's not, you
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  know, maybe it's not as great as we think.
• 22:21
  And maybe that's not a place that you want to send your dog.
• 22:25
  Yeah, please. Yeah, if you've enjoyed this
• 22:29
  episode, subscribe, rate and share us wherever you get your
• 22:33
  podcast. Also come on over to Instagram
• 22:36
  and engage with us at Sometimes Their Side Eye.
• 22:39
  Thanks for listening everybody. Talk to you next time.
• 22:43
  Bye bye.