Latest / TPOD- TTRPGs in Taipei / Episode 3: Daniel Moore talks about Symbols, Religion, and punk

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Episode 3: Daniel Moore talks about Symbols, Religion, and punk · TPOD- TTRPGs in Taipei

• Vorthak: Welcome back to the Countdown. We're just about to the number one song of the week, and it's a jam that'll knock you off your horse and force you to move those bones. But I want to tell you first a story. A foolish halfling recently told Vorthak that friends are more important than gold. Uncle Vorthak is here to tell you now, my goblins and goblinets, nothing is more important than gold, except maybe Ochi Blue by the Tom Cats. Take it away. cam: I'm here now with Daniel Moore, a DM and musician that lives in Tainan, and we're gonna talk about his experience gaming here and maybe about his music as well. Daniel, the first thing I want to ask you is you have an awesome collection of D&D publications, like classic D&D publications. Where did that come from? Daniel: thank you for having me and for asking. I got a f just cam: My pleasure. Daniel: bit of a collection here behind me. got my box of cam: is that right? Daniel: birthright. which is an unusual one. That's the the war game version. And I've got a Dark Sun original second edition box set. I think that's the the the prize of my collection. well cam: Dude, it's gonna skyrocket in price now, isn't it, right? Yeah. Daniel: yes I wish it's Part of part of why I I actually dug it all out for TPOP. cam: Hm. right, right, yeah. Daniel: I got a few other pieces that I have I'm actually kind of t teaching myself a bit of archival techniques to keep them in good condition. Unfortunately Taiwan, especially the south of Taiwan, is humid, hot and it cam: So humid, right? Yeah. Humid. Yeah. Daniel: take and sunny. The the sun that comes through the windows. cam: Yeah. Daniel: it's a bit of everything. So I'm very lucky. One of the I in fact I would say probably the most prized piece in the collection is I've got two sets sealed of the first Ravenloft box set. so I'm Yeah. And cam: Mm mm. That's another thing that like they keep republishing, so I'm sure th the the cost of that has gotta be like super high, right? Yeah. Daniel: it's funny, I I it wasn't until I got up to TPOP I used actually meeting all the the the wonderful cam: there. Daniel: to to kind of gauge is there interest in this? I mean I'm sure I know there is, but not just cam: absolutely, right? Yeah, yeah. Daniel: that. Just I yeah I I'm not a I'm not a an eBay reseller or anything like that. cam: Mm. Daniel: I got very lucky falling basically it fell into my lap almost. there was a an old time D&D player since first edition AD&D. He'd been playing here in Taiwan. Not me. No, I'm saying the person. Yeah, cam: You you've played since AD&D? you knew some okay, okay. Daniel: actually, where where you asked me where the collection came from, cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and he wa he had been here in Taiwan since the nineties, early nineties, I believe. he was from Florida, I think. unfortunately I'd I never actually got that much time with him. he was here for a very long time. I'd heard of him. if through other players with it, you know, it's a very small closed knit community. I mean for Taipei felt hustling and metropolitan in TPOP with all the people you had coming there. cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: it I would say in Tainan there's about maybe twenty it seems regular players of role playing games in English I would I'm sure cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: s and I'd heard of this fellow who'd collected it the name was Alex lovely guy. unfortunately he had to he was moving back to the States and he had he was getting he was give b giving these boxes out. and I had a look and I thought, wow that looks amazing. I'm not a big AD&D fan. it's not something I I think I played it fifteen years ago once. And I was okay, cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: it was of its time. not something I would ever put on the table, but yeah It's all all of the the material has always been around. I mean Dark Sun specifically is always something I've been a drawn to. just the setting itself. and so when I open started opening up the boxes and actually cataloguing what was in there, pulling one thing out and thinking, wow, that looks cool, and put another one and wow, I think I've seen that one. And then pulling out s you know some of the really old adventures like expedition to Barrier Peak. with the U UFOs crash crashing on the elves and cam: Some gonzo stuff. Daniel: Yeah, which is that's that's my preferred arena of role playing games. The weirder the better. And so yeah, cam: nice. Yeah, yeah. Daniel: I I was putting it all aside and I've just been solely going through it, cataloguing it and seeing I mean at first I just I like having I like having it. it's looks cool, but also cam: Mm, of course. Yeah, yeah. Daniel: yeah I I don't know, just the idea of keeping it in good condition here and it's not something that I'm I'm not sure I won't say I'm the only one who has some of these boxes here in Taiwan, but I'm not sure that there would be many. That's and you know it was a growing interest in D&D in Taiwan itself with Taiwanese players. I've had cam: Yes, there there is, yeah. Daniel: yeah and here in Tainan I've had some of my some of my uni students they were all they all got into it after watching Stranger Things and cam: right, right. Daniel: We were chatting and they were all they c they all came round the house and were pouring through it all and pulling out the books and I know this character. I mean, there was bits of lore from th you know f fifth edition D&D that I never knew about that they always traced back. They were finding it in these second and first edition books. so it was kinda I cam: that's awesome. Daniel: thought it's it's not really it's more like a museum piece at this moment. I'm not cam: Yeah. Daniel: I'm not I'm not sitting on it for you know thinking it's some kind of nest egg. I just thought, you know, cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: people are interested in looking at it and I like as a a bit of history. cam: Hm. Yeah, it it's definitely like a in a way, a holy grail, I think, or yeah, a piece of history, right? A piece of history. Dark Sun is coming back out soon and and you said you also have Ravenloft Tracy Tracy Hickman is working with WOTC again. And so Daniel: Mm. That's true. Yes. Yeah. Mm. cam: yeah, these these people keep coming back up and you know the OSR has been like a steady influence for the past ten years. So so yeah, people are interested in all that old stuff. Daniel: I've got. I mean, this is actually I think this is maybe my favorite one out of the the collection was everything is mirrored for you, but it's the it's first edition campaign box called Night Below. I'm not sure if it's the first Underdark campaign, but it's one of the early ones. I mean the artwork cam: wow. Hmm. Daniel: on it's fantastic. but it's it's a it's a massive troll through the Underdark. and I think there's a lot of stuff in there which is it's even got the old monster compendium but yeah even this started to get a bit of mould on the box when I op when it when it was in the collection when I got it. It had a bit of there was a bit of mildew on it. so as I said I was cam: no. no yeah. Daniel: sort of teaching myself some archival techniques. I even got some cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: special cleaning sprays that they use in libraries and those things. So try to cam: wow. wow. Hmm. Daniel: become a bit of I don't even now I think there's some books in the freezer. That's a that's a a strategy to to keep the yeah to to well cam: In the freezer. Yeah, yeah. There you go. Daniel: clean them up a bit and it it can it can stop the the cam: huh. Daniel: foxing on paper, you know, when you get the sort of liver spotting on the paper. freezing cam: Right, right. Mm-hmm. Daniel: it supposedly slows it down a bit because the actually it's not cam: yeah, yeah. Daniel: just RPG I mean I've got this big collection that I'm I'm a big fan of old school sci fi and fantasy books as well. So I get a lot of the old door books from the sixties. cam: that's awesome. Yeah, yeah. Daniel: yeah, and I've been all of this is i I i I've become an accidental collector of it. Where I've been very lucky. Yeah. cam: I am that way too. I just like have sticky fingers for things that I like. But here I like really Daniel: Yes. cam: have to curate everything 'cause it's like, I got too many books again, I gotta get rid of some of Do you do you have that problem here? I mean you sound like you're you're a a collector, Daniel: that's true. cam: an archivist as well, right? Daniel: Yeah, it's I I I always have this idea that it's just I I like seeing it and I use a lot of it for my art, you know, and it's always much easier for me to pull a book off the shelf and read that to get some ideas or make quotes than it is I always feel to troll through. and I'm the same with cam: Absolutely. Daniel: digital archives as well, if not worse. it's more of a mess. So if it's actually a lot easier to find it on my shelf than it is in any of the myriad of hard drives I've got. cam: Mm-hmm. Right? I'll I'll it's on my shelf somewhere and go find it. I never need my my like sophomore physics book, but I still have it, right? Daniel: Yes, Ha ha. I was gonna ask what's the the crossover with out of date physics textbooks and old editions of D&D? are they as useful? I'm not sure. cam: are they as useful? you know, the information in is still good and and older older white yeah, Daniel: okay. I was gonna say they don't get they don't get overwritten. The rules don't aren't overridden. cam: the other thing the other crossover I'd say is is aging white guys that stuff themselves into shirts like like reading both of them all the time. That's the only other thing I can think. you you were a collector of stuff. What do you do? You said you have university students as well. So so where are you from and what do you do? Daniel: okay. W I originally from the UK. grew up sort of jumping between Northern Ireland and mostly the northwest northwest of England, around Cheshire, sort of Manchester, Liverpool area. and then in my early Of course well sure. cam: As an American, that means absolutely nothing to me. It's all just like one it I just I I approximate it as a point. I'm I'm joking. Go on, go on. Daniel: Kind of where the Beatles and and Oasis Oasis land. the parkers and people dr drinking in the afternoon and the meat pies and morning, cam: They do it in the morning here, I'm afraid. Daniel: yes. so I yeah, that's that's where I came from originally and then I I became a merchant seaman when I was just turning eighteen, nineteen. So that's actually how I got to Taiwan. So it's been a long time now. I got an apprentice cam: okay. that's awesome. Daniel: ship, yeah, on a cargo ship. And it was Evergreen. The first ship was the Taiwanese the Taiwanese container company, yeah. Exactly, yes. no, cam: and the n the one that got stuck in the in the canal. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. Probably not the same ship. But yeah, yeah, same company. Okay. That's awesome. Daniel: but I did know when I saw the interview, the I recognized the second mate. served with him and It wasn't his fault, I'll tell you that. He was good. that's how I ended up in Taiwan. I'd say 'cause I was working for cam: How long were you doing that? Daniel: just around three years. Yeah. Yeah, and during that cam: Around three years. That's quite interesting. I I think that that like the the dream of the sea is something that like people maybe don't have as much as they used to, right? Like to have a life at sea. Daniel: Well that was that was the entire that was the only that was the motivation. yeah, sort cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: wist wist wistful dreams of being some Byronic hero sailing the sea. maybe cam: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Daniel: it didn't quite go that way. I mean, it's difficult to be romantic when you're going through cargo manifests documents on Excel. the the the the lure of the sea doesn't quite stand up. cam: Right, right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's it's not exactly Herman Melville out there, Daniel: now with automation, it's the you can still find a lot of adventure and romance on the ocean. I cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: had a lot, and I'm very grateful for it. But I got very lucky and met my now wife while I was there. We Gaoxiong was our home port. so we came into Gaoxiong a lot. It was where I spent most of my time and I ended up staying. so it's been over twelve years now since then. Yeah, so it's been approaching cam: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Daniel: ooh actually nearly yeah, over twelve years now I've been in Taiwan. All in the south between Gaoxiong, Pingdong, and now Tainan is where I'm based. cam: Hmm. Daniel: And here I'm doing my PhD at the moment. I'm on a I'm on a sabbatical. I I just had I've got a three year old who just got into school so I had a Just had a year break. I'm coming out the end of that, so I should be finishing up my research. mostly look at actually it's symbology, cam: Hmm. Daniel: semiotics. from an art perspective, I look at visual symbols and meaning and deriving meaning from symbols is sort of what I do a lot of. cam: Meaningful symbols. Daniel: and out through that it's mostly f storytelling. Which yeah, then of course I I try to think if is a chicken and egg situation with my love of of role playing games and storytelling and traditional storytelling. I mean that that I don't see cam: Mm story. Daniel: a distinction anymore. and I cam: Mm. Daniel: I don't think I ever did. but right now, yeah, my research is primarily indigenous stories and folklore in Taiwan and indigenous arts. all this time spent doing research on storytelling has has let me be able to smooth over rough patches by just talking. Over them. so we're getting there. cam: Yeah. Well tha that's actually something I I want to I want to poke at. a a person is sort of the story that they tell themselves. I've I've heard something like that, right? and Daniel: Hmm. cam: and to to sort of mix this with the idea of of role playing games, back up even further. Role playing games are a game about shared storytelling, where games and play are like what mammals do to like sharpen their survival skills in like a non life threatening situation. So like we on one hand we like build Daniel: Mm. Mm-hmm. Understand. cam: our identity through stories and on the other hand we like have this new technology in the last fifty years to like tell stories together in like a randomized way. Do you do you like do you see s do you see RPGs as as a part of like a tradition of storytelling or like a part of what it is to be human to tell stories? Do you do see a connection there? Daniel: yeah. it I not to get overblown with it, in terms of of of being too too exaggerated, but but I a hundred per s good. I guess that's just tests test in the water. I cam: No, go for it, go for it. No, no. Absolutely go for it. Yeah. I'm the one asking the question. I want it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel: I mean a big part of what I I I my personal art and also just the the artists I'm around here and then also with the indigenous cultures I work with here in Taiwan and my wife she's Taiwan indigenous from the the Paiwan people and the Pingdong. So it's to see a very culturally compared to as the West's per view of a storyteller and how you tell a story. not that it's too dissimilar, there's a lot of similarities in how a a story gets told when we're all sat around the barbecue in the village. cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: but the purpose sometimes of that of collaborative storytelling can be very different. I think it's yeah, there's there's a I always what you just mentioned, actually, about the your cam: You mentioned that. Daniel: view of yourself through story, I think is very important. it's what I always found interesting is is when you Especially in a a typical fantasy RPG. cam: A typical Daniel: one thing always we go back to like when you look at your backstory and trace yourself you know, as tracing it to a hero or you cam: Mm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel: know and I think that's something interesting is that there's not a lot of people I would let's say in in from where I'm from, especially in in a ri in Ireland, there's always f this in the the in the cultural discussions, this idea of ancestry, ancestor, you know, and knowing your personal story and family history. But in the north of Ireland cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: where I'm from, we don't have any. No, we don't have any, but but cam: Is that right? Daniel: it's just because of history, that a lot of records were lost. actually mostly from the the Irish Civil War. All of the like household documents, a lot of it was all blown up in the post cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: office archives. And so for example, like my family, I can trace back just on documents we have lying around to my great grandparents, and that's it. so that's late 1800s. That's the latest cam: Right, right. wow. Mm-hmm. Daniel: I've ever been able to find. And I've I've paid doing genealogy research. cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: and I couldn't find really anything. In fact, the only other document we found was something held in in the USA in New York, that a lot of stuff went through Ellis Island. From Irel from Ireland. cam: Mm. It's fo Daniel: and then going so going back to when you were saying this this idea of storytelling part part, yeah, I I think that that's the big draw for me. And as I said to to ov to overblow it purposefully was to say RPGs is akin, I think, to one of the most it's i aside from people who get really into maybe hermetic chaos magic or something like that. I think it's maybe the closest yeah, it's one of the closest I think ritualized activities you can do with other people. cam: It's primal. It's primal. Yeah. Rich rich realized. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I agree with that hundred Daniel: the cam: percent. It's funny my my wife like is not interested in RPGs. And I I think somebody could only say that if they didn't understand, like, just how again primal it is in a way. I think D&D is a bad example. I often hear D&D is just like cowboy Daniel: Hm, yes. cam: stories with dragons. And and that's sure, it is cowboy stories on the frontier, going out and getting the Daniel: Mm. cam: Excuse me, Indians, we're the good guys, they're the bad guys, we gotta go kill The orcs versus the humans, whatever. But but like role playing as a as a shared experience, as a shared like place to explore a space, to tell a story is something much, much deeper than than that, I think. And I think that you're actually a fantastic person to ask about it, so I I'm I'm I feel lucky to Daniel: Mm. cam: to have the opportunity, Daniel: we I've I've had the experience sat at a a table with with players where you know you see somebody really get into the character and you know embodying and starting to act them out and just to see people pulled into the story. I mean that's yeah, you're you're creating and something that's you know, increasingly rare at times I think in contemporary life. Well cam: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Daniel: That this the the more screens we're looking at, and of course the irony is we're having to talk over a screen, but even e but but it but even this feels more cam: Yes, yes, okay. Shh but then. Daniel: personal and has become such a normalized part of social interaction that this feels close. cam: Absolutely, yeah. Daniel: This feels in some to case closer than, you know, half the people you just have a quick passing chat with in the streets, you know, because we're looking at each other and purposefully listening instead of just looking cam: Yeah yeah. Daniel: at our wrist thinking, I gotta get to seven eleven quick. cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: so the the the the time and effort to sit down and play a game and roll and i I mean, you could say it's the little things, the accessories part. I've a and I I was talking with a a a friend here who who also runs games here in Tainan. We've got a very close knit gaming community here in this Tainan specifically. and he's very interested in not as practitioner but just as influence for his games, things like alchemy and you know you know the historical alchemy and sort of traditional forms of magic and he gifted cam: Mm but historical alchemy and traditional forms of magic. Daniel: me we we got a I got a form the Goethe the Alastair Crowley's Demon Summoning Sigils and I was just reading through it and actually the way he presents it I thought wow you would only have to put a random table at the beginning of it and you have a splat book for an RPG. the the way he describes cam: Yeah. Go on, go on. Daniel: how you're challenging channeling spirits. You know, it's it's all the for him it's play. And then the accoutrement of the accessories, you know, you have to gather the things in front of you and I thought we're you know, to to to belabor the point, We're we're we're committing a ritual by sitting down and rolling dice and I I always I laugh at cam: Right, right, right, yeah. Yeah. Daniel: I laugh at the you know, I see the things online about the you know, the satanic panic around D&D in the US, for example. We didn't D wasn't ever a big thing cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: like that in the UK. cam: Mm. Daniel: our our sphere of it, it was always seen as a bit as it was never seen in that w light because it was always more regarded like the it was always in the model shops where the war gamers hung out. And they had a bit more I think cam: Right, right, yeah, yeah. Games Workshop is is there, yeah. Daniel: So yeah, that that that that always had a bit of a different now that it's the the the the world's the the the spheres have all kind of melded a little bit into geek geek dumb. Yeah. cam: Mm it's all like centralized in a way, yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel: But I think like when I was growing up it was it was a bit more distinct in the war gamers, you know, they were they were history buffs and people who loved you know, they cam: Mm. Daniel: they would play out the same World War Two battle every week on the table. Yeah, and the draw of it was the the simulation aspect of it and living through it. and so that yeah, the to to go back to saying the there was no satanic panic around role playing games when cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I was growing up. So when I read when I've seen references to it and read about it, but you know, in the US, you know, people was telling stories about their church, you know, st their parents taking their books to the church and all burning them in the the in the church cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: park and things like that. I thought what Actually like maybe they didn't have a point in terms of saying it's it's evil but but the r the the ritual aspects yeah exact y it's approaching it, yeah. cam: But it is so ritual. It's almost religious and in the in a ritual. Yeah, yeah. I see. I I've never made that connection, but that that's a that's a funny point. I and another thing that I that I just I just realized through hearing you talk, like the very first time I think I ever saw a D&D book was at a music store near like just in a little strip mall in my town called On Q when it was like where they sold C Ds and tapes and whatever in the nineteen nineties. Daniel: Mm. cam: And The they had some D&D books like in the back on a shelf and I never like made this connection 'til just now. They sold it with incense and pentagram shirts and like other devil stuff. I've I've never thought of that before. That that is kinda funny. But but yeah, Daniel: Hmm. go. cam: like two in a way we we are like the alchemists turning something into gold w like by collecting the accoutrement and and like making the preparations and and Daniel: Mm. cam: the game itself is the ritual and and like the the result is is the everlasting life or the potion or whatever, you know the The Philosopher's Stone is is the is what comes out of the game. Okay, as as a to continue the metaphor. Daniel: Yeah. Well getting to level twenty. Yes. Yeah, of course. And I I think with the glut of cam: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah. Daniel: I mean we're off there's a fun talk about this r the renaissance of our you know indie RPG publishing now is I think it that that that aspect is more obvious than ever. And I've seen a few other books. I can't think off the top of my head some it direct examples, but I've seen I've definitely seen one or two books where the purpose is to enact a ritual. Or to to to to channel something via playing the game. to to to sum up, I I I all of the the role playing games, my research, my art, it's it's all pointing towards somebody met somebody called it recently. Actually, somebody the the guitarist in my band, we were joking around and coming up with titles for a track and he said, we were sort of joking about neo shamanism. But I when y when you talked about the the the the the store where you you went back cam: Mm. Daniel: to buy C D&D books all mixed in with self help books on and tarot cards. Yeah. I cam: Yeah. Yeah. Like tarot and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Daniel: in a funny way I'm increasingly putting it in some that part of my life. It becomes cam: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel: something deeper than just I d I don't I don't wanna say wasting time on a weekend with friends. Maybe it kinda could spelt like that sometimes when you're younger, but now cam: No, yeah. Daniel: time is more precious as a I gotta cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: make the most of it. I got a a young kid in the house and more and more work. so the the little bits of free time I have to snatch to to play or run games becomes very important to me. but maybe I'm I'm loading it with more of that emotion as well that you know, I wanna cam: No, no, I absolutely get that. huh. Daniel: trying to really get something out of it. so gonna I try to fr frontload some of it in my own head. If I'm gonna run a game, you know, the the part of the preparation, the preparing the random tables and think getting my getting my handouts ready. cam: Get my get my handouts ready. Daniel: yeah, hundred percent. It's it's ritual ritualized behavior now for me. And I'm and and I'm cam: yeah. Daniel: an enact it's a ser it's a ceremonial activity now. cam: Yeah, I I actually I I'm a like the game I play most is Shadow Dark and that's sort of OS OSR, right? And and so it's very procedural Daniel: Right. Right. Yes. cam: and I do appreciate that procedure and I I've never thought of it as like I'm I'm I'm not saying this in a self aggrandizing way, but like I'm the priest and I'm preparing for the for the sacrament. But that is that is exactly sort of in a way what it is, right? 'Cause I I I even like have steps Daniel: Mm-hmm. yeah. cam: that I follow to prep a you know, a a session of any game. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. cam: I sort of follow these same steps and and it is the The ritual sacrament or whatever. That's that's kinda funny. Hm. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. I I mean for example, like I mean sports sports fans that's always the you know, you look at open sociology text, there's always the old s old example that you know sports fans are akin to the new religion. talking cam: Mm. Daniel: looking at you know, the the when I started getting into research there was a lot of the references you come across and that I think now you can say the The way civic life has has changed that you can s say that almost about any activity, niche activity like this that we have and and playing RPGs by necessity I think fits into it very, very easily. I mean cam: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: an an example I think even would be TPOP, when we're running the an event in Taipei where, you know, half the people I think there had never met each other before. cam: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: And within ten minutes within ten minutes you're you're sat at a table sharing you know an i a very intimate life s story, yeah and and y via the game. cam: Hm. War stories or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well that that's sort of the point of of this show too is is that I I think most of these people don't know each other and and I don't know most of these people, so I just sort of want to make it like all sort of tied up and and but yeah, yeah, i i it because like this sort of basic thing we share, it is easy to just meet somebody and say, and you also do this and and jump off into that direction. Yeah. Daniel: Especially here I think as well. I mean out in Taiwan, to you know to be to sort settle and make a life here. I don't I don't in my day to day life I got a few friends, local friends who Taiwanese friends who who are interested in in role playing. but i it was never it's never been a big part of sort of geek culture here. They've this bit they've got obviously more of an influence from Japan with manga and anime. and and video games, I think. but so I've I've been able to snatch a few of them into role playing. and so I got a bit lucky there. I've got a few friends who I managed to get into it. but I noticed that it the the the approach to it is is a little bit different, maybe a bit more board gamey they like to see the the map and have the minis on the board and and map out movement that way and and have a set list of actions and that is how they really sort of embody the character then they they have the that framework first. whereas cam: Mm. Daniel: I think I think with a lot of you know for some some of the the European and American players I have at the table, yeah the maybe the There's the narrative in their head comes first, even before the rules or yeah. But and then it's sometimes cam: Yeah, fiction first, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel: more before even I've even set the stage as a TM. They they've started running away in their head with a story and sometimes it doesn't match up and so it can go either way. cam: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Daniel: but that's by the by and y I wanted to actually I I did have a question for you really about the the TPOP, though not to cam: Mm. Please, please. no, no, Daniel: to to run away w with your but with the podcast, but cam: no. Please, please, by all means. Daniel: 'Cause I I've been down since I've come to Taiwan I've always been in the south where you know the the other people from the U Northern Ireland or the UK is always been you know, a handful of people, maybe three, four people that I know immediately around me. and like I said, my gaming group in person is now about eight people that I I know of directly. there's a a wider group in Thainan, I think like said, about maybe twenty people, I think, who sort of jump between other GM's tables now and then. and then the local the the Taiwanese RPGing scene is a bit more they they keep a bit more to the the the board game stores. I see and they stick with more of the narrative board games. I just thought I was wanted to ask about in Taipei. I saw those couple seems there was a couple of Taiwanese players who came along. I had two at my table. it was just interesting to get their insight into how role playing games are seen here. it's a a niche within a niche, maybe. but just I didn't actually get this the the hist the story of how when how TPOP actually came about. I was just interested To hear that. Unless you've already gone over it in the first part episode. I'm sorry. cam: I I I mean how it's not forty though. No, no. I I I like I mentioned w what where the idea came from. I I just heard somebody talk on a different podcast, like, we had a mini convention and it was so much fun and I like, Okay, I'll I'll try and do that. And it worked Daniel: Mm. cam: out pretty well. Now where Taiwanese players came from, I honestly I honestly don't know. Like I my entire reach for for advertising for TPOP was just the Discord server. So like I was only advertising Daniel: Mm. cam: to a few people, but I think it got put on Facebook in some places. So maybe some people came from there. but Daniel: Hmm. Yeah. cam: but yeah the idea just came from wanting to have an event, wanting to be like in that that sort of space. 'Cause I I I spent a lot of time in magic the gathering tournaments or like RPG Daniel: Right. cam: conventions or whatever as a kid and and thought like it's not that that's the only part of my life that I like miss or whatever, living in Taiwan. Obviously, you like there's things that you miss here, things that you want or whatever, but but this is like a thing where it's like, okay, I can make this happen. I can not I can build this, but but like we could we could make this work, you know, and have something that feels like that. And so that that's all. And again it is like wanting to be part of part of ritual or part of part of a tribe. But but yeah, I think just to feel like a part of something big and and and like make something that feels kinda big was was part of it. Daniel: I yeah, definitely. I mean I me and my wife we've been doing a a small in indigenous film festival in Tainan and Gaoxiong. Yeah cam: that's fantastic. Daniel: and it went really well. we've we had actually we got very lucky to get support from the big a big university down here and also working with indigenous film network that based in London and we wrote it it got i I f thought it was going very well. in just in terms of the the films we were able to show and the the audience interaction and input was great and we were we got some indigenous artists who were able to you know either join us in person or called in from all over from from from Chile from from from New Zealand and w just it was just the idea of setting up something like that on that scale. I mean we'd we had a very quick teepop chat about if there was something to go on in the South. If we were to to ever try and if I was to appro think about doing a a TPOP South for example, something similar. it's yeah cam: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was my first Kai and I had a talk and and I told her, I like, I think TPOP the TPOP winter is gonna be in Tainan and she that's a great idea and and like since TPOP we were both Daniel: Right. cam: like, nah fuck that we ain't doing that for like w I'll take a break for for like, you know, six months. I'm not I'm not thinking about it. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, even a s you know a a smaller event can take a lot out of you. regardless of resources. It's just the time and the effort and you cam: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel: know, it can be a a slug trying to to to to drum up interest and you know, you cam: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Daniel: sort of a lot of the time you end up relying a lot on the kindness of of people to to do things for ya. cam: Yes, yes. Lots of that going on around here, yeah. Yeah. Daniel: Yeah, so I I I did I've been thinking about it. cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I would I would I would say if I was to plan one I would say I would need a year to set it up. I cam: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: think a good whole one good twelve months to to start setting get things in motion. yeah. cam: Hm. That that's a that's a good lead time, let me tell you. I I tried to do it in six and then I really gave myself only like one and a half at the end there and twelve months would be nice. So yeah. But but if TPOP is a goose, you know, it would fly south in the winter. So maybe maybe maybe Daniel: of course. Yeah. cam: the TPOP goose in in twenty twenty eight will fly south. We'll we'll we'll see about that. Daniel: yeah, we c I will I'm gonna put it on the in my my cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: my store of projects that are continually spinning, so I'll but it's something that's actually cam: Of course. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. If the interest is still there when it's time to pick up the pieces, then yeah, there you go. Daniel: there's there is quite a lot of players, foreigners here and lo local players I think who have big interest in D&D. who I think I think there's a bit of a draw. I mean, I've got some I've got some contacts with the what actually supposedly what I heard was the oldest RPG club that's been going on run by an American cam: is that right? Daniel: fellow in in Taizhong. Yeah. Supposedly that was one of the first ones. he's been here since the I think late eighties or early nineties or something. And he's been playing since then here in Taiwan. And he's had a yeah, cam: Well that's that's pretty cool. Daniel: and he supposedly he's had a he's got he's had a traveler sci fi game that's been playing for like fifteen years, nonstop. He just has drop ins every session. You can just go there. cam: Uh-huh. Daniel: he runs it on a Sunday, outside out of a tea shop because he he started playing back when you know it wasn't It wasn't accept wasn't very acceptable to be seen rolling dice in public here. It was still a lot of it was still like seen as gambling. and actually I mean it is it's not until recently. cam: huh. Right, right. Daniel: yeah, until quite recently, I remember hearing people having trouble even ordering dice online from abroad and then them being stopped by customs as being gambling accessories. still a bit of and then Not really a lot of public awareness of what an RPG would look like in play. So see a lot of people sat around a a table in a tea shop rolling dice with paper in front of them. Ca might you know right arouse suspicion. So they're they've been cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: they've been sequestered, I've heard, in Taizhong for quite a f quite a while now. and they they they started supposedly in a in a in a tea shop run by gangsters because it was the only place they wouldn't get They they could sit there and just roll dice all day and no one asks questions. I thought that's really cool. cam: That's that's crazy 'cause I've like been to like a rechao place and and played chui niu right? that's crazy that you can't you know that I've never heard that. I'd like to get in touch with these people though, with this group. I want to play with these people. That sounds like fun. Daniel: I think no, I'm saying I think the Yeah, I think the game has been going that long that they started when it was still a bit frowned upon. it was it was seen as you were hanging with the wrong crowd. you know the the gangster D&D players in the tea shop. so well true. cam: Well, if that's wrong, I don't want to be right, you know. Daniel: And so I think there's there's a big interest and Gaoxiong now I know has a a growing RPG scene. there's even there's a couple of bars that do like a D&D night now in Gaoxiong. it was a bit of a draw here. And in Tainan, I think Gaoxiong and Taizhong are kind of have have put and even Taoyan a little bit of have pulled away players from groups here in Tainan. I think s like many things since COVID, everything everything kinda shrank here and a lot of some of the venues we used to play at, like the board game sh shops actually closed during COVID. And some of them never reopened again and you know, once you've lost your your home environment for games, it it changes things a bit. So we're I think we're still I think we slowly found it's it's come back to what it used to be. And now with Discord actually though, it's that's transformed a lot of stuff. So we run yeah, cam: Mm. It's easier to be online anyway, but yeah. Daniel: we run nearly all the games we run are mixed games we have players on the table and then players joined via Discord with you know the monitor propped cam: I've never tried that. Daniel: up and they're on the screen. smaller groups, you know, I can't have too many people around the table doing it. But found a a happy middle ground. I was just saying for cam: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: something like TPOP. Yeah, I would definitely I I even I mean my my brain was running away with it and thinking, you know, I got friends who maybe like I know there's there's actually quite a big scene in South Korea and Japan, of course. Japan you know, is they have they have their own tradition of role playing games, I think. That it's become you know, it's yeah, cam: Yeah, Cthulhu or whatever, yeah. Yeah. Daniel: exactly. Yeah. And but for example like South Korea, I mean there's there's actually been I've heard a a a D&D especially specifically D&D clubs for a while 'cause of course with the you know, US army bases there, the D&D it's been cam: yes, yes. Daniel: a bit of D&D and sci fi RPGs like Traveler and stuff are quite have been quite popular there. so I thought, I was s spinning it out in my head of dreams of you know, a pan Asian RPG com convention alliance. So that maybe that's we're yeah. cam: That that sounds that sounds quite cool. No. Yeah, that Daniel: to go back to saying my work I was doing f with film festivals, 'cause that's what had happened with when COVID came and with the lockdowns. Al all the film festivals, the big all lot of film festivals, even the small indie ones, all went online. So they did like time screenings online with you know, shared like chat rooms. and that that has actually still carried on a little bit now that you know, that's not that hasn't sort of slunk away. It's that that kind of stuck around. So Es especially yeah for some of the smaller festivals circuit, still you know, st streaming a lot of films during the festival period. and thought, that'd be interesting. I d I've I've never heard of an you know a similar thing with an RPG event. cam: But but but yeah, I I I think you're you're right that especially after COVID a lot of things have moved online and and that's almost the expectation that like people are available all the time. As a as a teacher it it's something that frustrates me to no end. It's like, Justin is sick today so he's on Zoom and I think why the fuck is Justin on Zoom? Get let Justin watch the prices right or whatever they watch on T V here on a sick day. Like don't make Justin listen to me talk about math. What are you talking you know? Daniel: Yeah. cam: I I Justin, hang up the call. Go be sick. And so I I in a way Daniel: Mm. cam: I I think it is it's awesome that that like it's so easy to talk to my mom or or have a interview like Daniel: yeah. cam: this. But on the other hand I I I I don't know. In the case of like it being for work or for school, I think it's terrible. But for being for a film festival or an RPG game, like, hey, it's great that we can we can talk to people online like Daniel: Hmm. cam: that. Daniel: Yeah, I mean I think it's a draw as well. Especially if we if there's the approach to saying you know it's making a a network of fellow RPG players and and game masters across Asia, I think that'll be interesting. It seems like a cam: Yeah yeah. Daniel: a a bit of a an untapped market. I bet I mean there's a lot of some I suppose like I said we Japan there's a big big local market there. but for example, I don't know what you've seen here of locally produced RPG books, but it's it's meant there's is there is some, a little bit. I think there's a little bit more, you know, it's growing a little bit. of course the big draws though are cam: Mm. And a lot of it is it's like Taiwan Taiwan like like folk flavored, is that right? I I listened to a a podcast episode recently Daniel: Yeah, there's a bit of that. cam: about a guy who like was working on a game like that, like the I don't know, Cthulhu ish but based Daniel: Hmm. Right. cam: in Taiwan folk anyway, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt. What are you about say? Daniel: Yeah. No, it it's just the idea that here there's not a lot of translation of games. I mean that's something I've looked into a little bit. I I even think this at the g the game I'm preparing myself. I got a a little a mini RPG sort of booklet I'm preparing. it's it's I actually wrote it for a class I was gonna teach on semiotics on symbology. I had to talk about political symbols to eighteen year old or well, they they were a bit older actually. They were they were master's degree students here in Taiwan and sort of early twenties and yeah, obviously. My my age was showing when I figured, wow, they actually there's a lot of references. I was when I was showing them pictures or adverts and things that obviously they don't they weren't really aware of. so I was trying to think of interesting a fun a fun way of of getting across some of the the ideas and we got on to a topic on decision making how to it it was a kind of it was a very it was a very sweet broad broad subject I was trying to teach. but it we ended up talking about a a a principle of so sociocracy, which is direct democracy. It was basically communal decision making. cam: yeah, okay. Daniel: And I I I started writing down notes and thought, okay, we're just in typical fashion, let's just make it a game. everyone has their role to play and it ended up I ended up with all my notes and it's turned into anarchist commune simulator by accident. So so yeah, so I was saying cam: Hell yeah, okay. And this is the game that you're talking about publishing? Yeah, so Daniel: I was thinking about how to I w I I I would like to get it translated into Chinese. My my written my reading and writing in Chinese is is embarrassingly simple and so I've I've been trying to gauge you know a couple of friends who you know have interest in RPGs and I know that you know that for example their English is very good or in some cases they are also then they're Taiwanese translators of English. so I thought they're perfect. And then even then it it was quite difficult the the language used to You know, the shorthand we use in in role playing games in English is not always shared, of course. So a lot of concepts were very difficult to to be able to state in a very simple manner. And then I was mixing in on top of it, know, historical references to Ukrainian anarchist revolutions and things. So I was cam: Yeah. Daniel: th that's it's it was a lot a bigger task than I expected. And I've cam: Mm-hmm. It it sounds like it. Like the the the number of people that like can get the historical references and also the D or the the RPG talk and the translation and like Daniel: Yes. cam: maybe are interested enough to even take on the project. It's gotta be a very small number of people, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's very like special project. Daniel: Of co yeah, of course. Yeah. And then just to go back to very much and and to go back to say I was kinda that's why I got excited thinking, well I could do it, yeah, T pop South would be cool and just the idea of thinking, well, yeah, you know, hopefully I meet some people who are also interested in writing 'cause I I love the collaborative aspect of all of it. even in writing and preparing material for games. I I I think I'd I've The more I run games, the more I go towards story game-esque types of of rule sets. I mean a big one of mine I really love right now is Troika. that's this Yeah, that's that's one Troika. I do Yeah, cam: I was gonna say you mentioned wanting to run Troika at the at TPOP, so I was gonna ask about that. You said you like weird games too, and Troika is certainly that, isn't it? Yeah. Daniel: and and even something like yeah, they got Delta Green there. And I like the more Yeah, cam: I love Delta Green man, yeah. Daniel: I like the more narrative and I like to have it I've I've done something in the la past few games everyone where we had a session zero where we ran the the game called Microscope. I don't know if you know that. Yeah. cam: yes. I wanted to do microscope at TPOP and make like TPOPIA or like the just the land that the people wanna make, but but I didn't set it up in time. I really wanted to run microscope just like as a all day metagame, not like a sit down and play it, but yeah. Just like keep it on the board and like you wanna go add to it? It's over there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I didn't get to try yeah, I'd like to try it. Daniel: right. wow. yes. And I I've yeah. that'd be fantastic. I'm down for that because I I've always I I've had I've had some really good success, I think. You know really meaningful sessions where we've done and in fact actually sometimes we've we kinda gave up on playing the game I had in mind and we just ran with the microscope and created some really interesting things. cam: That's great. Daniel: and that so that part of it is really cool and I've always thought that's maybe a way you know I I'm you know as a as a as a a day job right now in with as I said but in between my research and teaching English, I got a lot of I'm doing I got very lucky doing the the higher level exams and then university. I got a lot of university students coming in and going over academic writing and preparing, especially a lot of students who want to study abroad. So I've always kind of been teasing in classes sometimes, you know, I kind of get, you know, pull in cam: I don't kinda get you know Daniel: an RPG or something even more story gamey, like fate or something. I've I've run them a few times. And I've always found They it's but it's always gone really well. if I don't coach it as l if it's not as game, you know, it's but then not necessarily just as cam: It's not as gay, you know, I'd but they're not necessarily Daniel: playing a story. It's just you know, even when it was just this is just language practice exercise. And then we get so into it we forget the class. cam: Whatever sort sort of sort of language practice exercise. How do we get so into it we get in the class? Daniel: and for especially then for some younger c you know, players, some kids who've never had any cam: Ever had any Daniel: don't even have really in some cases an awareness that that there's games like this that exist. and so something I think like TPOP. Yeah, I I I can see my I can see trying it, but yeah, my my well I think my ba motivation would be trying to get as many local players in as possible as well. And you know, even if it's even if the draw has to be, come along and have a you know if an English language environment, you know, I can imagine A lot of parents sell push it might get a bit yeah. Yeah, well a little bit cam: Professor Daniel's w strange experimental English class. Yeah, yeah. I've I've thought so much about RPGs and education like like combining, so I'm glad to hear that that we got somebody think about it more deeply than I am. Yeah. Daniel: Yeah, it's I th it's it can be a really good tool. and you know, there's a lot of caveats with it. and it can it you know, I think it can you can either it can get it can get in the way, you know, you've got to really have very clear goals in mind with it. cam: Course. Daniel: I did I didn't think of turn make TPOP South being a you know a l an English camp. For example, it's not quite cam: Yeah. Daniel: what I had in mind, but I just think there's there's a a a an untapped I I said the word market earlier. Well was not n not necessarily thinking in a muddy aspect, but just the just to get the cam: Of course, yeah, yeah. A a group of people, yeah. Daniel: yeah, just to get the I the idea out there that you know that and and you know, there is a bit more of awareness of it, I here in Taiwan for example, said earlier about stranger things being you know, that got quite popular here and I've had some of my College age students. They've they've all s they've so heard of D&D and things like that via TV shows like that. and then even I was surprised actually somebody had brought along they had a from home printed Chinese translation of critical role scripts. that some yeah, that they they come across somewhere. cam: Huh. That's interesting. Daniel: and I thought that was cool. And then I I put them on to there's there's been a few people who have translated the Japanese. play report books where they sort of fictionalize them and turn them into little short novels. there's been a few Yeah, exactly. Yes, and there's been a few cam: Right, right. Yeah. Like Lodas War, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel: people who translated them into Chinese things like that. So I kind of cam: Mm. Daniel: I've been trolling and actually I've been trolling now your secondhand markets a lot for the last few months, trying to grab as many as possible, just just for my own sake and just just to even learn some of the the the vocabulary used in Chinese for role playing games. cam: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel: you know, the short those shorthand terms. Yeah, so it's I think yeah something like you know I I see TPOP and like what you guys did up in Taipei I mean it's a a form of out you know it's a form of community outreach potentially. and I think there's to go back to the the tribal aspect as well, I mean a lot of people who Who for example, a lot of people who move over or come to Taiwan. we had some of the players that I met there were people who were either American born of Taiwanese family or had been born in Taiwan and spent extended period of time in in the US or Canada and then had have coming then had come back in later life, who were come playing the games. I always thought, yeah, it's interesting to see that they There's one girl there, one of the players, who was talking about she'd she'd had an experience of role playing games when she'd went to study in the US and then come back to Taiwan and not been able to s even know where to approach her group. and things like that. I thought, there's probably, you know, there's more of us out there that that are p potentially cam: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: to to to to ensnare and and you know, throw back in. cam: That's that's what I think too, is that that like like you said, it's not money like the market. But but there has to be like a large group of people that would play this if it if it like was put in front of them. They had the chance, they knew something about it, they had the opportunity to try it, like a you know, sort of risk free opportunity to play a role playing game. So I think there's there are a ton of people that that are out there in Taiwan, you know, Taipei that that would that just don't get that chance to. Now, I I have a question. I I sort of wanna reel back a little bit, 'cause we went from from talking about something to Daniel: Course. cam: Well anyway, I I I I sort of have this idea from a I really like the band Phish right? And and Phish is a jam band. And and they they have Daniel: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. cam: two types of jams, people say. A type one jam is where the band like knows what they are going to play and someone solos over it. That is a type one jam. Daniel: Mm. cam: A type two jam is is like when during a Phish concert they just leave that behind entirely. And and like they there's no like signal, it could happen sort of any time in a Phish song. But but like if we apply type one and type two to various things, I think it's a fun concept. So so there's like sort of type one role playing, like the DM has made like a scenario that should go this way and and like the the events that Daniel: Yeah. cam: happen in the session occur in this setting or in this frame, right? and maybe type two is is just not that. That that is left behind. do you do you prefer one of these and and if you if you're gonna say type two, I have a guess you're gonna say type two, how do you like achieve that in a game? Daniel: Yeah I'll s maybe it would depend on the game in question. I play as said in Tainan, there's a there's a there's a sm a closed knit community of of role players who play in English primarily and so I know the players a lot, so I I kinda know which if if I know which players are gonna be at the table that day, I know which approach would work best. cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I think my sensibilities, the games I like to play, and just the way I I like to run a game, I prefer the type two to be completely free-flowing cam: Mm. Daniel: and almost stream of consciousness role-playing. cam: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: I think it's have the most fun. and I always my insight with that has always been I always found it funny that the it's always the type two games though that get silly. They get the the d they get cam: No, no. Daniel: the deepest, but they also get the silliest. but cam: Mm, yes, yes. Daniel: in a way first I always felt you know, to use an over a an overused term cringe, but I think some people do l literally cringe at some of the silliness that can come out like that. that you know, some of that type of role playing, I think, you know, it is the maybe the the stereotype of the nerdy role player kind of thing, you know, wanting to stand up and swing the the foam sword around while they're, you know, declaring their love for the princess. But cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: I think, you know, to to even go back to the the s the rituali ritual ritualistic efforts we're making you cam: Yes, yes. That's that's right. I wanted you to bring this back to, yes. Daniel: have you have to get silly with it. I think that you cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: know the y you loosen up a lot while do by doing that. So I I actually used some of that at TPOP. yeah exactly that was cam: With the mouse the mouse hats, is that right? Is that what that was? Daniel: the entirely yes I I had my players who were running Mouse Ritter. so cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: players were playing as mice in it's the the real world it's the the setting is it's a a hu you know it's the contemporary world, the modern world, but the mice are little sentient s city builders themselves. They're just living this other life that we don't see on and You know, we're the we're the un unknowing giants walking among them and occasionally our our artifacts fall to them and cam: So Daniel: I just I had I didn't know who was gonna be at the table, didn't know who'd played a game before and that. And I just thought something to completely get them out of their their get them out of their own head or any preconceptions or worries they had about I don't know if I can be a role player is just okay, wear a silly hat. And if everyone's wearing a silly hat, you know, you kinda So there's a you a barrier's broken already. when everyone puts the silly hat on. cam: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Daniel: I think that just it just needs that little push and and people and I yeah, people get into it and I I think it it it did w I think it went well. like so I think at the table we had, yeah, two people and it was either their first day or only it was their first time playing or just yeah, one of the first times they'd ever played a game and sat down. Yeah, within within minutes they were really into it and and and embodying the character. cam: some you gotta get over that that like little barrier between like being sort of Daniel: Yes, yeah. cam: a normal per you know, presenting yourself and and like being truly in it, immersed and yeah, it sounds like there's like lots of little ways to take that step. Daniel: take cam: You ran did you run two games that day or you just run you ran the one game of Mausritter Daniel: care of Yeah, we we it was a a linked campaign. We had S cam: Yeah, you you and Sradhappa that's right. Daniel: Sradhappa ran the the morning session. The idea was because we were using the the Z a Mouse Ritter campaign box set and so we were both sharing the world. So actually we had an agreement was anybody who played in the first game, And then also played the second game with me, they would get to keep their level increase cam: Mm. Daniel: across games. but the the caveat was that they would be the they would be the grandchildren of the original of the first sessions cam: Mm. Daniel: player, of the first sessions character. And so yeah, one one there was a young girl who she did do that, and what was really interesting was in the first game, as she was one of the players, it was one of her first times playing a game like this, and also she, you know. second English is a second language as well. So she did really well joining in quickly, but maybe a little bit more reserved than some of the other people at the table. but she got into the spirit of it, no problem. but in the second game, playing as her you cam: Okay. Play against her. Daniel: know, playing as her descendant, the other players all of a sudden, because she got to start the game with some more resources and you know already be sort of an established hero esque character. the other players all picked up on it straight away and started, you know, she became the de facto leader of the group. And she led cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: so she went from being the quietest kind of person at the table. And cam: Yeah, new player to now, yeah, the face. Daniel: in the second game in the second game, she was leading and coming up with all like the big plans. And yeah, the the in the space of three hours the the transformation was amazing. and I cam: yeah yeah. Daniel: to to yeah, it actually it to i it it really It invigorated I hadn't played games or ran a game for a long time. It'd been over a year since the last time I'd ran a game till TPOP and it kind of cam: Is that right? Mm-hmm. Daniel: reinvigor yeah, I felt wow, yeah, that's why we do it. Yeah, it's get that situation regardless cam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Daniel: of the story, just to see the a player go through that the the that through that a journey, was beautiful and yeah, she stay we had a big chat at the end of it. I was just amazed that she was able to to make that change and Yeah just through the mouse ears a channel channel that I thought, yeah, that was great. So yeah, that's a big thing. Every game from now on, silly hats. regardless of set cam: yeah, absolutely. Daniel: regardless of setting. So it's it's good. Yeah. But cam: Well I I think we're just about running out of time, so I wanna ask you, are you are you playing any games now? Are you running any games now? Daniel: right now, I'm just gearing up we we actually had a the last big games we had were it was a traveler game I was running there's a big campaign for that, the Pirates of Drynax. It's a huge, big you know in real time multi year campaign kind of setting. that ran for quite a long time and then Luca had I had a had a kid but she she's taking up a bit more time. So that that went on the back burner. and so since then we've done a lot of little one-shots. and actually now prob hopefully starting from next week, maybe even this time next week, we will be starting a bit of a an experiment in Tainan of basically every week we're gonna cam: every meet. Daniel: have rotation. So if somebody wants to play a board game, they just bring a board game we'll play. Or if somebody wants to run a game or if they Whoever's turn it is, they can choose basically what they want to do. And they can pick cam: Okay. Daniel: one of us. You know, they can pick one of us to run a game for them as well if they want to do an RPG. but I but there is a short list of of of books. So the idea was we're gonna try and play through all the weird little RPG books we've had sitting on shelves and we've never played. The cam: Mm. Daniel: idea was how can we get as many of them played in a year as possible? So I've got queued up. Yeah, I've got cam: No, that's good thinking. Daniel: queued up. a couple. the big one I wanna do is I just got a copy of the Twilight two thousand box set. so I wanna cam: Okay. uhhuh. I have a friend that that publishes stuff for that, like third party stuff for that, but I've never played I've never played a Daniel: Ooh, wow. Yeah, it looks really cool. so I'm gonna try and run through that. And another big love of mine, Lovecraft stuff, Call of Cthulhu. I've got a I've got an old school that's the Dreamlands. so cam: okay. Interesting. Daniel: it's it's like the fantasy Lovecraft bit. Yeah, cam: I've never heard of that. Dreamlands, okay. Daniel: the Dreamlands is sort of the the collective consciousness of humanity and other creatures cam: okay. Daniel: in the the universe and it creates this Yeah. Mm malleable. It's a I tried to just we were talking about it with somebody earlier and we almost described it as like a pro it's almost a a non-cyberpunk matrix ideal, you know, written in the nineteen thirties that there's this collective fantasy realm where you can be cam: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: whatever you want in in your dream life and then you wake up and you know you're a bank clerk. so I've I've I've been dying to play something in there. I might not necessarily do do it with Call of Ctuhlhu but think of something similar. yeah. cam: That's quite an interesting setting either way. I've I've never heard of that. I like the sound of that. Yeah. Daniel: And it because it's everything's a dream, you can do anything in it, which is my perfect s place to to roll run around it. cam: Yeah, yeah. Just pull out whatever thing yeah, yeah. That's right. That's right. Daniel: Yeah, so that's yeah, there's got loads on the backburner. I'm very lucky here. We got a couple of close friends I work with. That's the that they they also run games and also write games. So I'd say there was a a friend here, his name's Kevin and he's a he's a a great artist. He does a lot of commissioned artwork for games as well. He's had some of his work published and he's he's been writing two games that we're sort of collaborating on a little bit in terms of trying to see about him getting it finished and maybe me trying to get it published and printed. so we got a little c you know network of people who are not just interested in playing games but actually making them and that bit. So I was I was hoping that was actually also the idea of TPOP. that's kinda how I got into it was with Sradhappa because I wanted to chat with him because I know he's been writing for games and stuff. And right. Okay. cam: trying to have him on on here as well soon. So I'm trying to talk to him I g I I guess in the next week 'cause yeah, he's he's a big one, a big git for me 'cause he's he's got a lot of experience writing, right? So Daniel: Yeah. I was surprised to find out there was a book I bought recently called Yokai Hunters. it's a little indie RPG, you can find it up on Itch. The writer was in Taipei when he wrote it. Spanish. I believe he's Spanish. I'm I'm I'd say I reached out to him a few times on social media and he's maybe not that active online. I couldn't quite I couldn't cam: Right. Daniel: get a hold of him. And actually I was hoping in TPOP, maybe I was I was I I did ask a few people. I had the book with me and was seeing if anybody knew knew of him and it didn't seem anyone did. So I wondered, was he when he wrote it cam: Yeah, now I gotta find this guy. I wanna know more about this. huh. Daniel: Yeah and well his his his stuff was interesting and and it I think he got a he's had it had a review of like Ben Milton and stuff online. I think looked at his book. Yeah so there's a couple of other cam: yeah. huh. Questing beast, yeah. Daniel: Yeah, and there's been there's another guy actually who's just moved to Taiwan for a couple of months now and he writes material for Apocalypse World and he's doing a Taiwan setting. he's doing cam: Hmm. Daniel: a fictionalized colonial period of Taiwan. Yeah, cam: that's quite interesting. Yeah. Daniel: so he that's why he got in touch with me 'cause I in my my previous research life I was doing a lot of work on Taiwan Indigenous cultural symbology and and arts. And so I had a some stuff in some journals, academic work, and he'd found me through the academic work and then reached out to me and said, You're in Taiwan. Yeah. And he said, I really wanna talk about, you know, Taiwan cam: wow. because you would have some some expertise on this too. Yeah. Daniel: Taiwan Indigenous, specifically Southern Taiwan Indigenous history and and cultural views on magic. And I was like, wow, that's i it's something I've I've got some research on, but Yeah, we we yeah, we had a massive chat for we'd never met. It was the first time we talked to me, we ended up cam: Mm. Daniel: talking for like three hours about it. And so I've been dying also to to get him to come down. I was I was begging both of them, he's should come up to TPOP with me and it it didn't work out quite but maybe then if that was another impetus to get TPOP South together if we can do that and pull some people closer to cam: Right. I w I wonder i if if Daniel: home. but yeah, th there's this it's interesting. There's quite a few people who've I've met since been here who've In fact, they've got an active hand in RPGs, even though locally the the scene is quite small and and I won't say limited, but this cam: Yeah. That's that's what I found. That that like even my my my Shadowdark game, these guys aren't like writing and publishing stuff on on Itch. Well Daniel: Mm-hmm. cam: okay. one may. One one guy like wrote his whole system and the whole setting for it. another guy like sculpts mini. So they just all do something like they all have really interesting hobbies that they're all really good at, that are all like RPG adjacent or in that and I like want to I want to like share it 'cause it's a it's it's quite interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I I I don't got nothing. I just talk a lot. that's true. Yeah Daniel: Yeah. I Yeah, of course. I think being here, you know, maybe it's also a case of well I mean that's the cam: Being here is is like being a shut in. So you have to like you have to make your own fun a lot of the time. Daniel: Yeah Yeah, I mean that's I mean it's I've I heard in in the last episode you s you talked a little bit in your interview about you know like journal games like so like ro roll and write kind of journal solo play cam: right. Daniel: RPG games and things. and that's that's how I've seen maybe being a a bit of a way to to reach a local audience and get stuff translated of so I've I actually been talking to a friend who writes here Taiwanese friend. She writes she's been writing like Wu Share fiction, you know, sort of Chinese cultural fantasy. cam: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: and the the and she she had a very interesting you know you know idea which was that they're they're you know to to do as a a a tur roll ri you know turn the page adventure book, you know, the old roll and write kind of thing. yeah cam: right, right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Daniel: and and so she said that that that kind of yeah would that would be a very good on ramp into to role playing for a lot of people here. I thought, yeah, it's cam: Yeah, yeah, probably. Daniel: cool because and I have seen the people doing you know, it's f on the phones. there's a lot of apps as well in Chinese now doing that kind of thing. so maybe there's there's a way to to reach some people and 'cause, yeah, I mean if We're gonna to end on a some kind of note. I think the more people here doing games and and being interested in it, the better. grow the grow the tribe and yeah. Of course. yeah. Well I I don't know cam: Yes, yes. I that's what I want too. That is that is ultimately like what yeah, what I'd like the most I think is yeah. Mm. Daniel: if it's a point touched upon in another interview or or something that came up at TPOP, but just the idea of having, you know. yeah, we we've we're playing and running games. using English and and using a a lot of Western, you know, cultural ask knowledge and and influences and our references. Whereas a lot of that isn't here. they've got a whole other set of references. And so having cam: Yes, yes. Daniel: tables of mixed players of of locals and then of foreigners is my that's what I want. and then what I like. When I have it, I always feel like the games have turned into something that I didn't expect, but in the best way possible. cam: Mm-hmm. Daniel: just because we're we're finding a common ground, but then also the the visual language. You know, maybe 'cause if some other players are, you know, maybe they're you know, English is a second language. You don't necessarily need to simplify what I say, but just try to pick more universal aspects. and that's cam: Mm. the things that they'll grab onto are slightly different or or less, yeah. Daniel: Yeah. And and some in a surprising way sometimes that I didn't expect that that would be something that would cam: Yes, yes. Daniel: would be run away with and so yeah it's it's hats off to use for for TPOP. That was a great event and I'm I'm I'm look well I wanna cam: Just yeah. I just couldn't not do it. I don't know. I I couldn't not do it for some reason. Yeah. Yeah. Daniel: I I'm I feel like I'm I'm gonna say I'm I want to impose and say I wanna say I whatever can be worked towards expanding it to the south I would I'd love to be a a franchise franchisee in some regard r aspect. we got cam: excellent, excellent. Well, I'm gonna have to take you up on it. Yes, yes. you're you're in it now, buddy. Well, anyway, I I think that's a that's about all the time I've got. I gotta have it moving after this. thank you, Daniel, so much for coming on. It's been it's been just a ton of Daniel: Thank you. cam: fun talking to you. And I think I think I could talk to you for another hour at least now, but but I I I I gotta go. But but you're you're working on a game and and you just put out a record on Bandcamp. So can you tell us maybe if you want to share your game on Itch, can you tell us where we can find that and can you tell us the name of the band on Bandcamp that we can listen to? Daniel: on it, it's not published just yet. gonna do a bit of proofreading. might have one more playtest and if you're keen, I'll or maybe I'll try it I'll send a link in the Discord for for anyone who wants to join it. cam: yes. Well I'm just gonna have to have you on again, then so you can plug it in, I'm afraid. So yeah, yeah. Daniel: Perfect. but that's through relative reality games is on Itch and then on Bandcamp. my band Liquid Rigidity Project. we just released our debut album with the current lineup is called I've Never Lost a Limb I've Needed. it's a acid jazz punk prog rock. improvise session. It's funny you mentioned fish. Yeah well it cam: That's just all the words I like put together, like so I I'm I'm into it. Daniel: it's it's funny you mentioned Phish I don't think musically I wouldn't say an influencer. I don't know if either any of the people I think maybe the our our guitarist I think he's mentioned Phish before. But as an approach definitely when you were talking about cam: Mm. Daniel: session one session two definitely I think that's a big part cam: Yeah, yeah. Daniel: of it. Though I think our our We're a bit more drawn towards something like maybe some more post punk stuff, a bit of Devo is thrown in there, a lot of talking heads and and then of course a lot of cam: hell yeah. Daniel: a lot of a lot of UK punk gets mixed in with what I do, mostly spoken word. and so yeah that'll be on that's on just on Bank Camp and hopefully we got a new little LP coming out soon. We're looking at getting an LP, an actual physical LP get for maybe, maybe. It's early days, but we're living in a yeah, we're living in a cam: Getting pressed? that's so cool. Maybe. yeah. good luck with that. Fingers crossed. Daniel: it's it's a boom time. I don't know, golden age of indie material and and the access to stuff. I mean now there's a there's companies who will do they will do like a run of five LPs on vinyl for you. yeah, yeah. So yes. cam: That's that's ridiculous. That that's that's not many at all. Daniel: No, so it's amazing. so that there it's perfect. We're in a good spot. especially all cam: Yeah. Daniel: as a load of rapidly approaching middle aged dilettantes. we're in a perfect position. Yeah. cam: so it goes. so it goes. Yeah. Daniel: So anyway, thank you very much. cam: I I look forward to talking to you again. That's that's all I can say after this. And yeah, it's it's been a pleasure. Daniel: Thank you.