Latest / Identity at the Center / #161 - Day 1 Reflections of the 2022 Gartner IAM Summit

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#161 - Day 1 Reflections of the 2022 Gartner IAM Summit · Identity at the Center

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You're listening to the identity of the center podcast, this is
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the show that talks about identity and access management
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and making sure you know who has access to what let's get
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started. Welcome to the identity of the
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sender podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim a gem.
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Hey Jeff. How are you not so bad yourself?
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Good good. I really realized today.
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I'm one of those people one of those people.
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Yeah. One of those people who is in a
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conference session and the presentation is available for
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download and I take pictures of the screen pictures of the
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slides that it could be downloading.
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We talked about this on Friday to yeah I know we talked about
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it but I'm I'm one of those people.
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So what I'm going to do nice going, we should probably
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explain what we're doing. We are at the Gartner.
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I am Summit 2022 in Las Vegas, which is hot outside, she's
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right. Fortunately is not quite as hot
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inside although you know me, I'm always warm.
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So I've had my fan on and full display in several instances
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this morning. Yeah, I saw you sweating and it
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was like, 72 degrees inside zone.
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I'm an indoor cat. I like cool weather.
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Yeah. Well, we are Fortunate that in
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this sweet. It is very cold.
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It is it is our recording studio for the next couple days and we
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are very lucky to have it. Yeah.
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Thanks to our friends at RSM, they hooked us up with a suite.
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We have a nice quiet place to be able to record.
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So yeah, it's pretty cool. We have this sweet, so, thanks
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Artisan. It's a sweet, sweet, sweet
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sweet, yeah. And thank you.
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That is right. This isn't terrible.
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Fantastic. And I don't think we'd be able
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to record Podcast the way we have intended.
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And yeah, today we're just going to do day one Reflections.
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Yeah, talk about. Kind of what we saw heard
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experienced all that good stuff. The intention is for us to get
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this out recorded. So we're recording it.
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Monday evening, and my goal is to get it edited, and either
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pushed out tonight, or tomorrow morning, so it's available
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Tuesday, the 23rd. So, we'll see if that happens or
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not. Yeah, but that's where we'll
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give her. My high-level feeling is just
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this, One of the best I am conferences.
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I've ever been to a part of that is that I was just so excited to
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be back. Seen people in person and I saw
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so many people from my different generations of time in identity
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and access management one of them, going all the way back to
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when I was at Allied Bank and like the guy who was in the
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trenches with me, Shri Nika Sola.
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So I got to see him again. It's probably been 12 years
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since we saw each other. They're so, you know, that's a
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personal item, but I mean overall just I'm sure
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everybody's kind of experiencing this as seeing people, they
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haven't seen in a while. Yeah, it's pretty cool
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experience. I think it's interesting, you
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bring up Blast from the Past because I'm gonna introduce Our
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Guest who is somewhat I haven't seen or really heard from and
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probably like a decade or so, her name is Rosa black.
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She's the manager of I am at sidley, Austin.
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Welcome to the show. Rosa.
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Hello, thank you for having me today.
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Thank you for being here and R sharing a microphone so you know
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we are working out the Kinks in this first episode so you'll
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have to bear with us if we are kind of figuring things out but
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we have a tradition around here that the first time someone
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appears on our episode on our show that we find out about
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their identity background and how do they got into identity?
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So is identity, something that you chose or did it choose you?
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I'm going to say, it shows me so funny story.
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I got my start in identity about 17 18 years ago and it was
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thanks to Mr. John Steadman, here we started our career back
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at Walgreens together, that was like 21, 22 years ago and he got
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a job in the identity group and he said, hey you want a job?
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And I said, sure, so I kind of just landed in information
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security and working on the idea had been team for several years
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more like an escape from the help desk.
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I think, is the way that I would probably characterize it, but
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yes, we do go way back. We had a really great team there
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for several years. But yeah, I think, you know,
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just kind of level set from the background is like very much
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Operational creating IDs, ID badges, Lotus Notes, accounts
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Mainframe rack F. What are the what else do we
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work on? We did Unix and then we were
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also seeing that audited everything to if you remember.
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So if you don't use your password in 90 days, we went in
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disabled it, but we had horrible reporting.
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So we'd always disabled people and they'd call the next day
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like hey I can't get into my Mainframe account and everything
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was manual back then we had no automation.
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We'd ever need tools. It was took a long time to do
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one. Ticket fact, I think.
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Want to do the Unix tickets because they were, I'm sorry,
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not Unix as400 that was the problem application.
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So that one ticket would take someone like 25 minutes so
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nobody ever wanted to grab those.
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Yeah. Shout out to Doug coup, who was
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our our main as400 person, and because he was the only person
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who is willing to like, learn how it worked and set up the
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identities on that. But Kudos a dog.
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What do you think about the first day here at, you know, I'm
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have, you been to a partner conference before?
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I have not actually. So I'm a newbie in this is
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actually great experience. So, first off the keynote
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speaker, This morning. Mary I cannot remember her last
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name. She did an excellent job warming
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everybody up. She gave a great speech
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welcoming everyone back. And by the way, if you've never
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been to a corner conference day, one, it is really well.
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Organized. They left, no detail unturned.
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It is very nice here. So I am looking forward to
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tomorrow actually, but my advice for anyone coming for the first
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time would be just go to all of them even if it's not a topic
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you're into, it's all about I am which is for me it's kind of
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nice to know that there are people who like I am.
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Me, I didn't realize there was a whole world of people that love
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talking about it all day long, like I do.
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So there are a lot of interesting people are you can
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talk to and just interesting speakers to hear their
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perspective on these topics. Yeah.
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That that keynote speaker is Mary Miss aglio, and I thought
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it was a really great keynote as well.
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Like, we talked about last week Jeff like the, the Keynotes
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don't necessarily have to be finely honed on the people
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process and technology that we deal with.
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And I I'm right. It's the idea of like getting
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you to think about bigger topics, and I think her topic
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was around the idea. That so many of us people in
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this, I am space for people outside.
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I am so, yes, of course, as well are just experiencing burnout,
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especially over the last couple of years.
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Not only, you know, from the pandemic but like all these
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other issues that have been happening around us that have
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people kind of being like, you know, life in general.
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But then how that gets pulled into the workplace and I think
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one of the biggest topics that she brought up is that you know
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kind of I'm going to date myself here but you know 47 years old
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Joining the workforce may be like 25 years ago, you know,
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kind of the attitudes and look, the what we experience coming
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into the workforce. That time, was that, you know,
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social issues are not something. You'd kind of like bring up and
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talk about in the workplace. Well, today's generation.
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You know, people are just coming into the workforce, now, they're
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being raised with a different perspective on that and are kind
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of encouraged to be We're bold and bring those issues up.
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And so you have this mix of generations and mix of
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perspectives on, you know, their willingness to engage in those
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discussions. And it goes to the point where
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there are some people who don't want that brought into the
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workplace and then there are other people who are like, I
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don't even want to work here for not going to, you know, take on
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those issues. So that was I think a lot of
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what was brought up in that Quinones, early powerful to, you
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know, to think about that and then reflect on it.
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Because if you're leading teams that are multi-generational, you
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know, you're going to face some of those issues for sure.
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Yeah. I think it was interesting her
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her talk was called how to digitally accelerate when you're
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so freaking tired. I'm sure the freaking wasn't
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that it. But, you know it was it was
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interesting was it really you know, I touch this in the last
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show was it seems to me like the Keynotes are very much focused
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on people and The Human Side of really not identity.
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I think just business In general, I think it was, you
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know, she gave a great a great talk, you know, I think some of
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the Nuggets that I took out were speaking real words, right?
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We get lost in this like oh we are going to digitally
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transform, blah, blah blah and all that stuff doesn't make any
8:53
sense in the real world. And you know really trying to I
8:58
don't say dumb down but simplify the language, make it easy to
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communicate. If you can't articulate what it
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is that you do, or what is the value that you're bringing more,
9:06
the problem, you're trying to solve, you're gonna have a bad
9:08
time and it's just not going to work.
9:10
Gout yeah, digitally transform your think digital
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transformation was a word that I heard a number of times today.
9:16
And someone said you know that belongs somewhere on the hype
9:20
cycle digital transformation, but to me that is a very
9:23
specific meaning because I see a lot of organizations you know to
9:28
me I always think of digital transformation on the customer
9:32
side. I know that a lot of folks are
9:35
using that term relative to managing I am for the workforce.
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But to me, it's a term that makes much more sense on the
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customer side where you're looking at something, not just
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around, I am. But you're saying, alright,
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we've gone to Market with this approach of multiple points of
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Engagement or, you know, multiple channels of Engagement.
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So it could be various websites for different aspects of the
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business. That could be a nap.
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It could be, you know what? Ever.
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But then the idea of digital transformation is pulling all
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that together. And from a technology
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perspective, you've got the data layer.
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You've got the application layer, and don't forget about
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the identity layer. Yeah, I would agree, she touched
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on a lot of good points today. And she talked about some just
10:29
general management points to and how to talk to your people and
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not being toxic, toxic positivity.
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I think was the term she actually used once.
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She said it, you were like, oh yeah, that's I do that all the
10:39
time like well, Least, you know, she talked about how, you know,
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being more sensitive to your folks, your team's needs and
10:46
their emotions and what they're going through and like, you just
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mentioned. We didn't we didn't do that 34
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years ago that wasn't you know unfortunately your dog died.
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It was like, I'm sorry get back to work type of a mentality.
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Now it's like you're more than welcome to take the afternoon
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off if you need it. Let me know if I can do anything
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for you. So I think our think our world
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has definitely changed could be just over these past two years,
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but I think we all need to become a little more sensitive
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to everybody that We work with a little bit more, everybody's got
11:12
something going on. I think that's a good lesson to
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take away. It sounds to me like that was
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the clear highlight for the first day between the three of
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us. Was there anything else that,
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you know, sparked, Joy or interest to steal something from
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from from Mary's talk earlier today?
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Jim once you start? Yeah, no.
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I mean, there were several sessions I sat through, they're
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all really high quality. There was one that I ended up in
11:36
by accident because I went to the wrong room.
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But it was one of those things that was, you know, meant to be
11:45
because it was a really great session.
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It was called connect business value, and identity management.
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It was given by Rebecca archambault and really just kind
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of talked about, you know, as I am practitioners, how we have to
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put the value of I am in terms that are around business results
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and what are the business? As results that the things that
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we're doing the the activities that we do to ask for money, you
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know, whether their metrics, you know, that come out, you know,
12:19
how did those things bubble up into the business results?
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Either, we're selling more, we're cutting costs for reducing
12:26
the risk to the organization and we have to be better at
12:30
explaining that to the business to be taken.
12:33
Seriously, to have a seat at the table because I think one of the
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things I took away from her presentation, Nation was that.
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She said, I am always had a seat at the Kids Table, Right?
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But now it's getting a seat at the adult table but for us to
12:50
get a seat at the adult table and to stay there, we have to be
12:53
able to explain the value of what we do in business in
12:58
business results or start a food fight, either way.
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Yeah, Rosa any other highlights from today that he thought were
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interesting Yai yai share was said, you went to that the one
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you just mentioned with Rebecca. I was supposed to go there when
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I was stuck with the vendor so I had to miss that one, but I was
13:17
very much looking forward to that one.
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Well, I came here with an agenda to focus a lot on all the Pam
13:23
solution vendors and all the Pam talk.
13:24
So that's what I focus on mostly today.
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And I cannot remember the name of the first one that I went to,
13:30
because they all kind of blend together now, but it was so
13:32
refreshing to actually, like, see it on paper, you know,
13:35
because like I mentioned before you don't necessary know that
13:37
everyone in your when you're in your Explain Pam to somebody or
13:41
anything, with a dentist management unless they're in
13:43
your space, they don't understand what you're saying,
13:45
no matter how you dumb it down or how high level you explain
13:48
it. So today, I was thinking the
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three Pam ones, I went to all of them were so, well, articulated
13:55
and detailed than it was just so refreshing and it was nice
13:58
little grass that everyone can understand.
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You're like, I feel like I'm with my people here, we're all
14:02
in the same boat trying to figure out, you know, what's the
14:04
best solution for our company, our customers or whatnot.
14:07
So, I the three I went to, I can't, I Can't complain about
14:10
them at all. They were all super informative.
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Yeah, I didn't get the chance to spend too much time because I
14:15
was actually working for a lot of it, but it was kind of cool.
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Just kind of walk through the halls and you know, Thief sees
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familiar faces that, you know, we see a conference has a lot,
14:26
it was kind of cool to have a couple listeners come up and say
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hello, which is always neat, that's always a highlight.
14:31
So, if you're still here at the conference and you're hearing
14:33
this, you know, feel free to come on up and fist bump
14:36
interrupt, whatever. We're probably not talking about
14:37
anything and super intelligent. Anyway, Don't be a stranger.
14:42
I was definitely one of the highlights for me was when I had
14:45
an opportunity to tell somebody about the podcast.
14:47
They said, that's not podcast. I mean it happened to or
14:51
theories being polite. Maybe, maybe, you know, one
14:55
thing going back to that session was just talking about from
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Rebecca, was she at this one? Really great slide.
15:02
So if you get an opportunity to go and download the slides, it
15:06
was identity, access management incidents and the I was just,
15:11
you know, kind of at a high level, what causes more
15:16
Identity, or identity access related issues.
15:19
So you know people who are accessing data that they
15:23
shouldn't or maybe it's a ransomware event, things like
15:26
that and it was, you know, you get more of these incidents that
15:30
the high-risk end of the CL and fewer of those incidents at the
15:35
low end, low risk and to the scale.
15:39
So things like, If you watch your investment and I am, if
15:43
your investment I am is low, you're going to have more access
15:48
related issues. Same thing with, you know,
15:54
access openness. Like if you are tightening down
15:57
your axes you for starting with the least privileged model
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you're going to have fewer incidents.
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So the takeaway from that is like how do you communicate that
16:09
to the business that That. Hey, if you invest more in, I am
16:13
that, you're going to have fewer access related issues, you're
16:15
going and then tie that back to a business value.
16:20
So then you're going to have lower risk in a losing customer
16:23
data or you're going to have reduced costs things like that.
16:27
So really great takeaways from that, some of it is some of
16:31
these things are like you know, you get the data and you need to
16:36
consume it and and chew on it for a while.
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And as far, I love you it's going to the conference's
16:43
sitting in the sessions and and listening.
16:47
So what else are you looking forward to the rest of this week
16:50
when it comes to the conference? So for me tomorrow I really want
16:54
to focus on the vendor Hall in the morning and then we're going
17:00
to record a few more podcasts over the next.
17:03
You know, 48 hours tomorrow we've got sessions were going to
17:08
record with Louisa me. ETA is over clear sky and Jamie
17:12
grows over CV and shout out to teaching me.
17:16
She sent us a. Shout out to me during her
17:18
presentation today. Even paying attention, what's
17:21
that? And you weren't even paying
17:22
attention was to paying attention?
17:24
My hearing is not that great. That was the issue.
17:28
So no II, totally heard it, and I appreciate it and I loved it.
17:33
So yeah, looking forward to recording those sessions
17:38
tomorrow. Then we've got a Going Wednesday
17:40
as well. So we're going to have a lot of
17:42
content coming out. Get my editing fingers.
17:45
Ready, Rosa? What about you?
17:48
Well, tomorrow, I'm actually going to focus on the vendors
17:50
that are here from the not Pam related segments.
17:52
So, I actually am looking forward to just hearing more
17:54
about what's happening in the industry and Trends.
17:57
And I am because it I think it just really depends on what kind
18:00
of a company you work for. Some people are more customer or
18:03
end user focused with their products or with their Solutions
18:05
and some people more back and focus.
18:07
So I just think it really depends on which side of the
18:09
fence you're on with I am personally for me, I'm more on
18:11
the customer side and like, is it easy for the end users?
18:13
Can they use this as that user friendly?
18:15
Can the team use this? I have people that focus on the
18:19
back end because that's not my specialty.
18:20
So, shout-out to our engineers at take care of that stuff for
18:23
me. So you have tomorrow, I'll be
18:25
focusing more on what's happening in the industry.
18:27
What's going on? What's everyone talking about?
18:29
What are the trends? So it's what I look forward to
18:30
hearing. So it's kind of interesting
18:32
interesting strategy that you've come up with here.
18:35
The first day was on privileged access and now you've got a
18:38
second day, focus on sort of other topics.
18:40
Jim you and I were talking about sort of like our strategies for
18:43
going into this and I do remember what you want because
18:46
at the time, but I don't think topic was one of the things that
18:50
you and I had considered. I find it interesting.
18:52
It mean makes a lot of sense to me, right?
18:55
I think if you're, I think, if you're like Rosa in and I am
19:01
practitioner, and you're having like, real use cases that you're
19:05
trying to solve. That's definitely going to
19:09
influence your Approach my Approach.
19:12
William was, I wanted to kind of balance across all the different
19:15
areas that, you know, I run into those kind of use cases with you
19:21
know, multiple clients. So that I've got kind of an even
19:26
understanding of the trends and and kind of what would
19:29
potentially fall into my wheelhouse.
19:32
That makes sense I think yeah obviously based on the roll rate
19:34
you're going to be in two different things.
19:37
What about recommendations for people who are either here
19:40
Already or maybe considering the future for people who are
19:44
attending what are some things that people should know.
19:47
I'll go first because the first one that I immediately thought
19:50
of was get two sessions early, they may or not.
19:54
They may not have space in the conference room that you are
19:57
hoping to get into. And they may send you somewhere
19:59
else which is a less than ideal scenario.
20:03
But definitely if you're something that you're just and I
20:04
would say get to your destination sooner rather than
20:08
later Rose about. Yourself.
20:11
I have 21 where gym shoes because there's a lot of walking
20:16
here. So a lot of women here in the
20:18
fanciest of high heels of ever seen and I'm sure their feet are
20:21
killing them today. Mine included, I think the
20:25
second thing I would say is just put yourself out there.
20:26
I came here alone so I'm traveling alone.
20:28
For this conference is just go up to those vendor booths and
20:31
syrup a conversation. You never know where it's going
20:33
to lead to make you more comfortable with talking people
20:35
about their products, even for not interested in their product.
20:37
Just go talk to them. And also, if you see Just
20:40
standing there were all here for the same reason.
20:42
We all have the same knowledge. We go talk to someone because
20:44
it's going to open up the door to lots of conversations.
20:47
And I met two people here specifically both from Toronto
20:50
but four separate cyber companies.
20:53
I almost like consulted with them about.
20:55
I am teams and processes and stuff like that.
20:57
So like actually boosted me and made me feel really good because
20:59
I was like giving them advice and helping them with because I
21:03
what do you even need? We don't even know how to build
21:05
a team and I was like oh this is my specialty.
21:07
I would love to tell you about it so I got to show off my
21:09
skills. Set a little bit with some
21:11
stranger's, so and it made them very happy to.
21:13
So just put yourself out there and go talk to everybody.
21:16
So we're going to see Rosa presenting and a couple of years
21:18
here at Gartner, maybe identify verse or maybe some other
21:22
identity conference. Jim any recommendations.
21:24
I think that one that there was just said, with putting yourself
21:28
out there and, you know, plunk down and sit next to somebody
21:32
who, you don't know at lunch, I still do that today and I said,
21:36
hey, is this seat taken obviously?
21:39
Wasn't And I met Brian burn. See I would shout out to him
21:45
because he made me feel very comfortable and told me all
21:48
about what he does and you know, the his strategy and his vision,
21:54
I said you're somebody we need to get on our podcast so expect
21:58
an episode with him at some point in the future.
22:02
So that's number one, I think is, you know, that was a great
22:06
recommendation. The number two is really I say
22:09
consider. Staying at the Caesars, or I
22:14
don't know. I've always liked seeing at the
22:16
Cosmopolitan, right? Which is technically walking
22:19
distance, but when it's 105 degrees outside, it's not really
22:23
great option. I don't know the Sheen's.
22:27
Just coming off of that. For me, I'd rather be closer
22:30
close and not have to deal with going out.
22:32
So maybe I'm just being a grumpy old, man, by saying that but
22:37
you're gonna lose. That knows Marriott nights
22:39
though and loose. At us, well, then that's an
22:41
option to say. There's a Marriott like one
22:44
block off, the strip that does not have a casino that's an
22:48
option. I would consider being part of
22:50
it. Just to, you know, be completely
22:52
transparent was, I could hear the nightclub in my hotel
22:57
pumping, like music to like 2:30.
23:00
So every hour or so, I'd wake up and hear that music, and then
23:04
have to fall back asleep with that music pumping.
23:06
And it's not like I'm an old person.
23:08
Like, I hate that music. Isaac, I did, I like it.
23:11
But now we're trying to sleep. I don't want to be woken up
23:13
every hour wear earplugs or I don't know.
23:16
I mean I think staying obviously in the hotel for the
23:18
conference's. Makes a lot of sense.
23:21
Yeah. What else do you have, really?
23:25
I think you guys covered. I think get there early just
23:27
because they happen to me a couple times today where I had
23:29
to go to an overflow spot and at that point, I was kind of like
23:32
mmm. Now, I'm going to do something
23:34
else and walk around, I think, Rosa had a right on spark up
23:37
conversations. I mean I think that's the great
23:39
thing about The any Community is, people are pretty cool for
23:42
the most part. Like we're, it's not rocket
23:44
science and it's not secret sauce, right?
23:46
It's not like you're giving, you know, Trade Secrets away for how
23:50
you should be running your. I am program or how you're
23:52
building a team, or those are two things unless that is your
23:56
secret sauce, maybe, but that's something to consider.
24:00
We want to keep this little bit brief for, for this first one.
24:02
Make sure I have time to get it and put out, but it wouldn't be
24:05
an episode of a Datacenter with out, a way to end on a lighter
24:09
note and the That I've come up with for today is what's the
24:12
best TV show or movie that you've recently seen Jim?
24:16
We'll start with you. You want a TV show and a movie
24:19
or or movie trying to remember the name of it.
24:24
But it was a Netflix series with the Viking theme.
24:29
Who tradition? Oh yeah the last Kingdom.
24:32
The last Kingdom that was sort of a good with okay.
24:34
Lastly device really had first off I think everyone knows I'm
24:38
like into the Vikings thing. And I look like liking, I like
24:42
the Vikings and like the historical context of you know,
24:46
when they based a show in history, but that was a really
24:50
good show. Now, you got me into that one.
24:52
I liked it was pretty good, I think I haven't seen the last
24:53
season, but you know you, I'm looking at you here, across the
24:57
table and I bet if we put like, a horn head on you, you would
24:59
totally fit in as like a cast member maybe.
25:02
Well, you know, I mean, Vikings raided Ireland and like 800
25:08
beasts or eight. Edie.
25:10
And so, a lot of people who are Irish actually have Viking
25:16
jeans, alright, so I don't, I don't know, you know, like they
25:21
actually don't know how if Irish people were redheaded or if the
25:28
Scandinavians brought red hair to Ireland.
25:31
Interesting. Yeah.
25:32
All right, I didn't know that until I started doing some
25:34
research. Rosa, what about yourself?
25:38
What's the best TV show or movie?
25:40
That you've recently seen. Well, I do love a really good
25:43
Netflix documentary, but I have to say, my favorite adult movie
25:46
I've seen, is Top Gun recently in the theater.
25:48
I've seen it twice. I can't even hide it.
25:50
It was so good. And then, because I have kids
25:53
superpets is actually a really great movie.
25:55
If anyone has kids really funny. The rock is the voice of the
25:59
superhero, dog. It's actually quite a good
26:00
movie, okay? So dual recommendation, Top Gun.
26:03
I haven't seen it and I don't have kids, so I don't know.
26:05
I don't know what superpets is. Well, I guess how would you
26:09
describe it other than Another rock is in it.
26:11
Super Pets is based off the pets of the superheroes.
26:14
So Superman's dog is a super pad and that's what the story is
26:19
about. And then all the Marvel
26:20
characters are in it too, so it's actually quite
26:23
entertaining. Interesting, I heard this I like
26:25
Marvel's, maybe I'll check that out.
26:28
I'm going to stay with the Marvel theme because I was
26:30
actually really, really pleasantly surprised impressed
26:35
and just a really well-done show, Miss Marvel on the Marvel
26:40
sort of thing. I don't think it got a ton of,
26:43
like, viewers or whatever me, but I thought it was fresh.
26:47
It was relatively modern. It was just really well done.
26:51
Cinematography is great and it focuses on the character Miss
26:54
Marvel and I want to kind of like ruin it, but it was not a
26:57
character that I had, you know, any familiarity with.
27:00
But I would just say it was very, very well done.
27:04
So that's my pick. All right, we're going to go
27:07
ahead and leave it for this week, not soon enough.
27:09
This week, for this time, I'm going to get this edited output
27:12
to shout either tonight or tomorrow night.
27:14
So either Monday night or Tuesday night 22nd, 23rd of
27:17
August will have more episodes that were going to be recording
27:20
tomorrow. Jim is a slave driver and has us
27:23
recording for like 48 hours in a row.
27:25
So we'll see what comes out of that.
27:27
Yeah, that's probably job. Yeah.
27:28
You're booking the guest and you're doing a good job.
27:30
I've got to work about editing it.
27:32
So we'll go ahead and leave it for this week.
27:34
You can find us on the web. I'd any of the center.com.
27:36
We're on Twitter. At idac podcast and what That we
27:40
will hopefully talk with you in the next one.
27:46
Thanks for listening to the identity at the center podcast.
27:49
If you like what you heard, don't forget to subscribe and
27:51
visit us on the web and identity at the center.com.