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171 - Why Imperfection Is Becoming the Most Powerful Style in Photography · The Nerdy Photographer Podcast

0:05
Casey Fatchett: This one. This one here is the fake.
0:14
I know it gets easier when for. Oh, hi there. Welcome to
0:18
the nerdy photographer podcast. I'm your host, Casey Fatchett,
0:21
welcome to the show. If this is your first time here, you know
0:25
you should be sure to subscribe so that you don't miss out on
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all the interesting conversations and adventures.
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Yes, adventures, because in addition to giving you
0:32
interviews with amazing photographers from all corners
0:35
of the globe, does the globe have corners? Forget about that,
0:39
and also providing you with lots of informative and entertaining
0:41
photography related information. I also go on adventures with the
0:44
crew of the starship Fibonacci. Right now, I'm helping the
0:47
leaders of atomist 12 determine which of their sacred gemstones
0:51
have been replaced by forgeries. The key is to look for the
0:55
imperfections, because those are the real stones. Speaking of
0:59
imperfections, in this episode of the show, I interview wedding
1:02
photographer in Bal Sivan about the current analog esthetic
1:06
trend, how to find your own artistic voice and where to find
1:09
inspiration in a visually saturated world. All that after
1:13
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1:28
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4:14
Hello and welcome to the nerdy photographer podcast. I'm your
4:21
host, Casey Fatchett, and I'm here this episode with
4:24
photographer imbal Sivan imball, welcome to the show.
4:27
Inbal Sivan: Thank you for having me. I'm excited and
4:30
scared.
4:32
Casey Fatchett: Nothing wrong with that. It's a nice Into The
4:33
Woods reference for any musical theater people out there as
4:36
well. We're going to start out with the dice breaker. It's a
4:41
seven. What's the worst investment or purchase that
4:47
you've photography related? Could be business wise. Could be
4:51
equipment, whatever it is. What is the the worst investment
4:55
you've made? Photography wise?
4:58
Inbal Sivan: Oh, good lord. So I. I'm embarrassed to say I am a
5:03
shopper every shiny new thing. I'm like, I gotta try that.
5:08
Having done this for a very long time, I'm sure you know that
5:11
like anything, it's not about return on investment. It's about
5:14
keeping things exciting and fresh. And anything that's new
5:17
is like, Okay, well, maybe this will give me, you know,
5:20
something new, new to bite into and try. So I buy everything, I
5:24
buy everything, and then sometimes I sell it, and
5:27
sometimes it rots in the closet all the way back to like the
5:31
Fong Dong and the ice light and the California sunbound.
5:36
Casey Fatchett: Don't tell Don't say that. Don't say ice light.
5:38
Jerry Jonas might be listening, yeah. Oh, that, yeah, I know
5:44
what you mean. I've made many of those purchases myself. Got a
5:48
whole episode about, like, horrible things that I don't
5:52
know how many mine. Like, the most common one for me was white
5:57
balance, like, custom white balance, producing, like, yeah,
6:01
a light meter I've got, oh, I still use light meters here and
6:06
there, like, depending on what the situation is. Because
6:08
sometimes, like, one thing I tell people is, like, you can't
6:10
always trust your camera at a meter. But the like, No, I had,
6:15
like, those, like, one was a, like, a lens filter put over the
6:22
lens. There's like a lens cap, and then you like, pointed at a
6:25
light source, and then, like, click that. That'll give you
6:27
your custom white balance. And then there was, like, another,
6:33
like, a little screen thing that you like, held in front of the
6:35
camera, like in front of the lens, so you didn't have to
6:38
have, like, a certain filter size. And I was like, I
6:40
eventually realized, like, you know, I could just take a
6:42
picture of something white,
6:44
Inbal Sivan: yeah, but you don't know what's really white, right?
6:47
Casey Fatchett: Well, we know just have, like, a,
6:49
Inbal Sivan: oh, like, have a car, yeah, have
6:51
Casey Fatchett: a card in, you know, I don't need to worry
6:54
about, like, different sizes of things and, like, filter, like,
6:58
screw on filters.
6:59
Inbal Sivan: And also, it was a bad purchase. I bought a tilt
7:05
shift lens, and that's, like, expensive. I was a way a while
7:09
back, but like, when they were popular, look at those photos,
7:13
like they're so absurd and like, like, it's just gimmicky. And it
7:17
makes me really sad that I wasted good compositions and
7:21
good lighting on such a dumb thing
7:23
Casey Fatchett: that was such a trend for a while. And it was
7:25
to, like, take five pictures, like, five portraits at a
7:28
wedding, and then just like, and then didn't use it any other
7:32
point in time during the wedding day. I I never bought one, but I
7:36
had a an associate and a second shooter who had them. And I was
7:40
like, don't just, I don't want you to use them, because if
7:43
you're working for me, it doesn't fit my style, but they
7:46
would do it anyway. And I was just like, not for me, not for
7:51
me particularly, but like, yeah, expensive. Like, that's like, a
7:54
$3,000 lens, at least. No, some of it might not be. Then it is.
8:00
Now, I think they're like, like, tilt shift lenses. Like, I don't
8:05
know what camera system you use, but for, like, Canon, like, for
8:09
a like, 35 millimeter, 50 million, or whatever it was,
8:13
like, the kind of standard lens was, like, close to 3000 like,
8:17
at least 2700 Yeah.
8:20
Inbal Sivan: But, I mean, I don't remember what I spent on
8:22
it. I don't remember what I sold it for. I just remember that it
8:25
was, didn't use it. It's only one of many, you know, gimmicky
8:30
things like lens babies. And like, I did all I did all of it.
8:34
I did all the junk.
8:37
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, the lens babies. I never really got the
8:40
lens babies. Either it's like, this is super out of focus. What
8:45
am I? What exactly am I using this for? And I think one of the
8:49
reasons I got out of like, I think when I was earlier on, I
8:53
bought a lot of those things because, like, you were saying
8:56
before, I'm trying to keep it fresh. Or do something like, oh,
8:59
this new thing is gonna, like, trigger some creative impulse
9:03
for me. But I think I just stopped, like, wanting to fill
9:06
up my bag with stuff, yeah, and because I would feel like, I
9:11
think that's why I stopped buying those white balance
9:13
things. Was because I was just like, I've got them. I had them
9:16
in my bags. And sometimes I would have two of them in my bag
9:18
and not, I wouldn't use them. And, you know, why? Why do I
9:22
even buy these things? I'm just gonna fill my backup with stuff.
9:25
Inbal Sivan: Yeah, no, agreed, although I'm not one to talk,
9:28
because I pack heavy, like, I still
9:31
Casey Fatchett: pack heavy. It depends for me. I think that it
9:34
depends on, like, what I'm doing, like, for weddings, I
9:36
have a ton of stuff, just because I like to have backup,
9:41
like, in case something breaks. I've got like, a third camera
9:45
body, or like, at least another, like another 24 to 70, just in
9:49
case, or something like, I've got, like, or at least something
9:52
that covers bases that I could do, but I feel fine probably
9:58
shooting a whole wedding just on a 50. Millimeter, really? Yeah.
10:02
I mean, just like, it's my I love shooting 50 is like, or,
10:05
and I probably could, if I had a 50, I have done it where I shot
10:12
an entire wedding, because it was fairly small with 50 and a
10:15
135 on two different bodies.
10:18
Inbal Sivan: Wow, that's no wide at all.
10:21
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, there really wasn't anything, like,
10:22
there wasn't a big space. So there really wasn't anything
10:25
that I wanted to do, like, like, super wide, and that just, like,
10:30
fit everything. It was just kind of a, I don't know, like, it fit
10:33
the what I was going for.
10:35
Inbal Sivan: I shot a wedding only on a 50, but the
10:37
circumstances were such that we did a photo shoot in DUMBO, and
10:42
I had a bag with my 24 and 35 like a little satchel, and I
10:46
just left it on the train tracks, like went to the
10:49
wedding. Did not take my lenses with me. Whoops, yeah, they were
10:53
lost forever. I sent my assistant back to look for them,
10:55
and they were just gone. And all I had, all I had, was a was a 50
10:59
and, like an 85 or something like that. And I shot the whole
11:03
but I shoot wide, like, I'm a wide shooter, so it was really a
11:06
huge challenge for me. I think I did okay, but I wouldn't want to
11:10
do it again. I think
11:10
Casey Fatchett: my three most, like, my, my next one there
11:13
would be 35 like, that's, that's, that's my, my preferred,
11:16
like, wide ish angle I would probably shoot. I'm like a 3550
11:21
in a 135 I could do a whole wedding with those three lenses
11:25
that feel, I feel really comfortable.
11:29
Inbal Sivan: My 20 I've never used my 135 like, I think I use
11:32
it in churches. That's it.
11:34
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it depends on how big the church is. Like,
11:36
I might do a I find myself viewing a 70 to 200 in a lot of
11:41
like, the ceremonies, because I want to get that close without
11:44
being that close.
11:46
Inbal Sivan: Yeah, I don't have that. I don't have anything
11:48
longer than 135
11:50
Casey Fatchett: See, I've, mean, you might be able to people at
11:53
home cannot see this, because this is audio only. But, like,
11:55
I've got, like, a whole, yeah, all this stuff back there.
11:58
There's a, I have a 150, to 600 as well, which, which is mostly
12:04
for my like, this is something that only came up in recent
12:08
years, like during the pandemic, because, like, photograph
12:11
wildlife, just as, like, a hobby and like, and my wife said that
12:16
is like, you can't like your your photos are so far away.
12:20
Because I was, like, the longest lens I had was a 200 and it
12:24
couldn't get close enough. We'd go on trips whenever we'd see
12:26
deer, elk and things, whatever, and I couldn't get a great shot
12:31
of that. She's like, you need to have, like, a lens that can get
12:35
closer. And so that was a an anniversary gift for me. It was
12:39
the 150 to 600 which I now have, and now I've used a few times
12:42
professionally for, like, corporate stuff. Like, if you
12:44
ever do, like, a big corporate event, and, like, it's a huge
12:48
room, can still shoot the people at the podium from, like, in the
12:52
back of the room with a 150 to 600 get fairly close
12:56
Inbal Sivan: Yeah, I'm the asshole who just gets, gets in
12:59
there. Just get close and screw it.
13:02
Casey Fatchett: Everybody has their own style. And like,
13:04
they're like, I'm I don't know. Sometimes I'm happy with that,
13:08
like, they want to get it close and like, be there next to the
13:10
subject, and other times I'm like, I want to be far enough
13:13
away from them that they don't know that I'm here or that I'm
13:17
not influencing their what they're doing in any way, right?
13:24
Inbal Sivan: Yeah. I mean, that's, I think that's a
13:25
fundamental that's, like a core characteristic of my approach,
13:31
is that I, you know, there's, there's two ways to get
13:36
documentary images. And one of them is, they don't know you're
13:39
there, you're a fly on the wall. And one of them is they're so
13:42
used to you and you're, you have, you have such a
13:45
relationship with them that they are, they feel free to, you
13:50
know, not pander to the camera, right?
13:54
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, that's, that's the thing. It's like,
13:55
it's not always, like, it's not the couple that I worry about,
13:57
especially at weddings, like the couple knows has worked with me.
14:00
We've done an engagement session or whatever, and they know to
14:03
kind of like, not look at me if I'm close up, but it's like
14:08
family members and those people, they see the camera, and they're
14:10
like, turning to look right at it and like, looking, no, that's
14:16
not
14:17
Inbal Sivan: well actually, when that happens to me, I usually,
14:19
like, I'll take the shot, and then I'll go up to them and say,
14:22
Hey, I got a great picture of you. You don't have to look at
14:24
the camera again tonight.
14:26
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, yeah. And just be it's one. Was one of
14:30
those things, right? I tell couples, like, if somebody comes
14:33
up to me and wants me to take a picture of a group of people
14:35
together, I'll always do it. I'm always happy to do it. But I
14:39
prefer, like, those moments, because if you go up to somebody
14:43
you never know, like, if you go I've been the guest at the
14:46
wedding where, like, waiting at the bar for a drink, and the
14:50
photographers come up and ask me to pose with like, the bride's
14:55
boss or something. Like, Hey, you guys get together. Like, we
14:57
don't know each other. And I'm like, hey, well, okay. Right?
15:01
Yes, because I never know, like, what people's relationships are.
15:03
So it's like, they would come up to me, they're like, Hey, take a
15:05
picture, sure, but I don't go around, like, pushing people
15:11
together, yeah. So you've been working in this industry for a
15:16
long time, in photography, when you sort of zoom out and take
15:21
kind of a bird's eye view, what feels like the most significant
15:28
shift during the time you've been a photographer?
15:33
Inbal Sivan: I mean, that is a huge question, because the last
15:37
two decades have seen truly seismic shifts and in
15:41
photography and technology and the industry and the way that
15:45
media is consumed, I think it's, you know, like, I think starting
15:51
out in my career, I would see what's happening now as
15:54
completely unrecognizable, like, What even is this world we're
15:58
in? I think that, I mean, I don't know if we really need to
16:03
talk about the technology advancements, because I think
16:06
that's probably been well covered before. I think that
16:12
things that maybe aren't talked about as much is like Film to
16:17
Digital is obviously a huge shift. But I feel like Photoshop
16:25
and like the the rise of of editing software. So that
16:30
happened during my career, and I feel like, I mean, I remember
16:35
the first time I used Photoshop, and to me, it was as revelatory
16:41
as the first time I saw, you know, a picture emerge in
16:44
developer it's like, wow, there's, there are so many
16:48
possibilities here. There are so many things that you can do. And
16:52
it was really, it was, I think it was a massive shift. But also
17:02
the tech technology, I think people don't talk as much about
17:04
the lighting technology and how that's shifted. So when I
17:09
started out, I used to carry around, I have always done
17:13
elaborate lighting setups and including on dance floors. And I
17:16
would carry around alien bees. You remember?
17:18
Casey Fatchett: Yep, yep, I still have some
17:21
Inbal Sivan: so I'd bring a couple of Airbnbs and plug them
17:23
into outlets. And like, have, you know, I'd have my on camera
17:27
flash and my Pocket Wizard Velp road onto it. And, like, it was
17:32
always a huge production. And now so much stuff easy. It's so
17:38
easy now with, like, the radio controls and and the radio
17:43
communication, and there's no there's no cores, there's no
17:46
wires, there's no outlets, everything, like everything,
17:49
works so easily. And I think it's, in a way, it's kind of
17:54
leveled the playing field, because the things I was doing
17:56
back then, nobody else was doing. But I'm I welcome it,
18:00
because I don't want to carry three bags to a wedding. Like,
18:03
I'm perfectly happy with with those advancements and what
18:06
they've afforded me in terms of flexibility,
18:09
Casey Fatchett: oh yeah. I mean, like, I used to have to have a
18:11
lighting assistant just to, like, help, like, bring stuff
18:16
around, like, carry the gear in, and, like, we're going to set
18:18
the stuff up, because it took so long to set up. As opposed to an
18:21
hour, it's just like, oh, I can reset all the stuff on my like,
18:25
on my trigger. I can reset power levels and do this all from, you
18:30
know, wherever I'm standing, as opposed to, okay, I've got, hey,
18:32
lower that one, a little bit like, move the lights in this
18:37
way.
18:40
Inbal Sivan: Yeah, I had an assistant too for, you know,
18:43
many, many years, just only recently did I start shooting
18:46
weddings without an assistant. And I'm looking back at all the
18:50
money I spent, you know, I kind of cringe at, like, all the
18:53
money I spent that I could, you know, really, I could have done
18:55
it on my own, but looking around now at my peer group and my
18:59
colleagues and their bodies are all falling apart, and I've
19:01
never lifted a bag in my life. So I feel fantastic, like I'm in
19:06
great shape, and I'm not worn down by the job. And so
19:10
ultimately, in middle age, I'm like, Oh, that was money well
19:13
spent.
19:13
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that the something that people
19:16
like, don't, don't necessarily think about. And I'm the
19:20
opposite. I mean, I'm I have, knock on wood, no major issues.
19:27
But I used to carry all of my I used to carry a huge sling bag,
19:31
not sling shoulder bag, or whatever it was. It was a giant
19:35
like messenger bag, but it was wide with all of my lenses and
19:39
everything, like in speed lights and stuff and batteries with me
19:43
all the time throughout the day, because I wanted to switch
19:47
lenses and stuff, and I was just, what was I doing my one of
19:52
my second photographers, like, I remember when we first met, and
19:54
used to carry that bag around with you all the time. It's
19:57
like, yeah, it was kind of dumb when i. I discovered rolling
20:00
bags was a was a wonderful experience for my back, welcome
20:04
for my back and my shoulders and just everything felt. Feel so
20:08
much better. He's like, Yeah. I just kept thinking, like, That
20:10
guy's like a bear man, like he just carries around, like, all
20:13
of his equipment all day long. Like, yeah, it was dumb. It was
20:17
a bad idea. You should have said something to me. And they kind
20:19
of snapped me out of it earlier.
20:21
Inbal Sivan: I never carried shit. I had one guy, Gary Ng,
20:24
who was my assistant for over a decade, and he did everything
20:30
for me. He carried all my stuff. He would like, put out the
20:33
wedding day schedule onto my watch and, like, somehow program
20:36
alerts to come up when I needed to. I mean, like, really, you
20:40
know, useful and and fantastic. And certainly I could have done
20:44
things on my own, but it's, you know, I may have burned out if I
20:49
had to, like, wear all those hats.
20:51
Casey Fatchett: When you can trust somebody, you can delegate
20:54
to somebody and trust and, like, take things off of your plate.
20:58
It's a and I have a lot of trouble with that. That's
21:00
something that I have struggled with my entire career, being
21:05
able to just like, let go of stuff and have somebody else
21:09
handle it. I've gotten better about it in my more recently.
21:14
I'm not gonna say later, because many decades left to go.
21:20
Inbal Sivan: Yeah, I feel like I'm seeing that when people are
21:22
trusting AI to call their photos. And I'm just like, how,
21:27
how are you doing that? Like people are outsourcing things
21:30
that are so two robots, things that are so fundamental.
21:33
Casey Fatchett: Well, I mean, if I might like, it was so kind of
21:37
my next question was going to be like, where do you feel like
21:41
looking at this stuff as you talk about Photoshop, and I
21:43
always joke about, I worked on the first version of Photoshop.
21:46
I used it, like when it first came out, and you really weren't
21:49
even using it for photos. It was more like a digital painting
21:52
because, like, because we just didn't have a lot of photos,
21:55
because you needed a scanner. And even when you scan it in,
21:58
like, the bit that, like, there was, like, a horrible
22:00
resolution. And, yeah, just the advancements in what you're able
22:05
to do it editing wise, is like, it feels like millennia ago,
22:13
like even from when, like Photoshop was you, were you, I
22:16
was using it in like 2000 I suppose, like when I was using
22:20
it in the late 80s, when it first came out, it was just
22:27
like, that was like, leaps and bounds ahead, and now it's, I
22:30
can go in, and the bar has been lowered for effort. For so many
22:34
things that I used to spend like hours doing, like, I want to
22:37
select the Background used to take me, like, go through and
22:40
I'm going to do a little pass. Yeah. And just in it, and it's
22:45
and it's really good.
22:47
Inbal Sivan: Generally, take a moment to mourn all the skills
22:51
we have that are no longer useful.
22:53
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, sometimes I write things down, like, when
22:56
I It strikes me as like, something that, oh, I used to,
22:59
this used to be a learned skill. I'll write things down and be
23:02
like, You should go back and practice this occasionally.
23:06
Inbal Sivan: I mean, I used to develop, you know, in a color
23:08
dark room. I used to, you know, retouch. I used to retouch
23:11
photos by hand. I used to paint in dust spots, like all these
23:15
things that like, you know, I I spent years perfecting the craft
23:19
and is no longer useful in any way. Yeah, I
23:22
Casey Fatchett: just did a interview with a photographer
23:25
who he told me his archive. He used to shoot hundreds and
23:31
hundreds and hundreds of rolls of film and developed everything
23:34
himself. And he was like, you know, he's developed, he has an
23:39
archive of almost 500,000 photos that he developed himself. He's
23:45
like, Yeah, my hands touched this, and I spent all this time
23:49
on like. He's like, for me, there's such a, like, a personal
23:51
investment in this, as opposed to, like, digitally. He's like,
23:56
not discarding, like, the advantages of digital, but like,
24:00
you know that doesn't have the same amount of his own work in
24:04
it as when he would develop it. But what I was going to say
24:08
about AI calling is I use it to an extent, for me a lot of
24:15
times, like for corporate headshot sessions, it is sure,
24:19
yeah, no, I get that and for portraits on the day of the
24:22
wedding, like, like, I hate going through like, I'm going to
24:27
shoot, like, whatever number of variations. And if it tells me,
24:30
hey, everybody's got their eyes open in this one. And so I can
24:34
look at that and go, is that the is that work where I'm going? Or
24:37
do I need to, like, move some eyes from some other photo and
24:41
this will be like it, like it shortens that period where I may
24:44
have spent on the portraits, I may have spent a few hours on
24:48
it, to two minutes, three minutes where I can then go back
24:52
through and, like, look at it like it's a first pass for me.
24:55
Like I never, I always go back through it and go, Okay, what
24:59
did. You select and it cuts out hours of my time. So that's I
25:05
use it as, like some I use it basically like an assistant who
25:08
does a first pass at it, and then I check their work to see
25:12
what. I don't let it delete anything or without me looking
25:17
at it and saying, like to
25:18
Inbal Sivan: If I have to check the work, I might as well just
25:20
do it myself,
25:20
Casey Fatchett: yeah, but for me, like I said, it's like, it's
25:23
the for things like portraits, it's it cuts down, like, for my
25:30
workflow, and not everybody's the same, just for how I
25:34
mentally do things, it cuts out so much time, and I still have a
25:39
great connection to the photos, I think that is, I'm not a I
25:46
will never, like I said, trust someone to completely do
25:50
something for me, like AI, or an assistant, like I had for a
25:56
little while, had somebody who would go through and just do
26:00
some culling, because I was doing a lot of weddings and
26:03
didn't always have time to get through everything in a timely
26:06
manner. So like, have somebody look through and I would go
26:09
back, and it's not the same, like it is for me, the AI is so
26:12
much better than having another person do it. Because, yeah, the
26:17
AI that I use, like, color codes everything and says like, hey,
26:23
this one's good. Like, everybody's eyes are open,
26:25
whatever. This is something that's blurry. It color codes,
26:29
blurry. Color codes, eyes closed. And then it has like,
26:34
Oh, this is, these are all kind of the same as this shot. Like,
26:38
gives me another color code for like that. So then I can go
26:43
through those and be like, no, no. Actually, this one is the
26:45
one I want to keep, as opposed to the one you selected. But I
26:51
now have a group of like, these are the similar shots. So I can
26:55
go back in, but where I wanted to go with that is, are we
27:01
expanding creative possibilities with editing software, or are we
27:06
just increasing the pressure to deliver more and more quickly?
27:11
What do you think? What are your thoughts?
27:13
Inbal Sivan: Um, I think definitely, I think definitely
27:19
we're expected to deliver more quickly. The, you know, the
27:24
fundamentals of image making haven't really changed, but the
27:27
speed and volume and velocity certainly have. But I have made
27:33
a point so I don't use Photoshop now, and I've made a point of
27:38
being, you know, really clear and educating my clients about
27:41
what I do and don't do. And I like you, you know, classically
27:47
trained, my pictures out of camera are basically what
27:52
they're going to be. I may do some light, Global Edits, you
27:56
know, color, contrast, exposure, straighten the horizon, but I
28:00
don't, I don't like photo. I don't retouch or, you know, I
28:04
don't, I won't make your arms skinnier. That'll be something I
28:07
that'll be something I outsource.
28:10
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I when people are like, Oh, can you
28:13
make me look thinner? This is, you know, complicated issue.
28:18
Like, this is, like, your how you look at yourself, and I've
28:23
dealt with people who had, like, severe body issues, and it's
28:28
like, I don't want to, I'm not trying to say that. I don't want
28:33
to help you, but like, this is something we have to really have
28:36
a discussion about. Because, like, I've also had somebody
28:40
come by and say, like, oh, I don't like, I had tan lines. Can
28:47
you retouch them out in like, all 800 photos that were
28:51
delivered for this wedding or whatever? And it's like, no,
28:56
yeah, you got to pay me. That's a whole other thing that is not
29:01
a standard service,
29:03
Inbal Sivan: yeah, but I mean, like, even if they do pay me, I
29:05
just outsource it. I don't know how to do it. I you know, I know
29:08
only the very basics of Photoshop and retouching. But,
29:15
yeah, I mean, I think that it's, it's definitely made that
29:19
expectation more more common. But, you know, having the
29:25
business that I have, and having the, you know, the broad
29:28
referral base that I have, I just feel like I can, at this
29:31
point in my career, kind of choose what clients I want to
29:33
work with and and I'll weed out those red flags right off the
29:36
bat.
29:37
Casey Fatchett: Well, that's something I think a lot of
29:38
people don't realize. You've established your boundaries as
29:43
far as what you do and what you don't do, and you're very clear
29:47
with your clients. I think that that's something that a lot of
29:49
photographers don't realize they can do. You can say no to
29:52
clients too. You can say, like, I don't want to work with this
29:54
person because, and when I bring that up to people that like that
29:57
I have mentored or whatever, and I say like, you know. Of that
30:00
whole initial call with people is also for you to determine
30:04
whether or not you want to take that job. Because I've certainly
30:07
made mistakes and taken jobs because I was, like, need the
30:09
money. And like, you know, how bad could it be? And then it
30:13
turned out to be really bad. And, yeah, it's sometimes it's
30:18
not worth the money to, like, go through the headache.
30:21
Inbal Sivan: And sometimes you don't have to say, No, you can
30:23
just educate, like, I can say to someone, they're like, Oh, I
30:26
really I feel self conscious about my body. Can you make me
30:29
look better? And I will say to them, yes, I'm an expert in
30:33
lighting, opposing angle, composition. I will make you
30:37
look the best that you can look. You're not going to want, you
30:40
know, me to fix things, because I'm going to show you in the
30:44
best light, right? And sometimes they're like, oh, okay, that,
30:48
you know, that makes sense. That's good. And sometimes
30:50
they're like, No, I you know, I really want, you know,
30:55
retouching, and I really want everything to be absolutely
30:57
perfect and not a hair out of place. And and then I'm like,
31:00
You know what? I don't know if I'm the person for you. And
31:02
that's, you know, it's fine.
31:04
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I had a wedding like that, where the
31:06
client, I thought we'd met the meeting. When we were meeting in
31:10
person, everything was going great, and they signed the
31:14
contract right there at the meeting. Handed me a check, and
31:17
then the bride asked me, So how many of these photos are going
31:20
to be absolutely perfect. What? Huh? And I was like, Okay, this
31:27
is a that red that is a huge red flag that just like, went up
31:32
after we've already signed the deal here. Yeah. And that was
31:38
something I that was a one instance where I use this as an
31:43
illustration of should have said no, because I was not the right
31:47
fit for them. I gave them great photos. I'm very happy with the
31:50
work I delivered. But like I don't that's personality wise. I
31:55
don't think I was the right fit for them. Yeah, because I was
31:58
also not a very like type. I'm not a very type, a person who
32:02
comes in and just starts sparking orders. And I think
32:04
that's, yeah, that's more what they needed, yeah. I think that
32:10
we've, we've the term, just the fact that Photoshop is sort of a
32:15
verb, right, that regular people who have never used Photoshop
32:19
use has expresses how much it's just expected for you to, like,
32:26
oh, you can just Photoshop
32:27
Unknown: that, right, right? But the joy of Photoshop, or at
32:29
least it was for me in the beginning, is the creative
32:32
possibilities and not the fixing.
32:34
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, yes. Like, how you can it's that Lightroom,
32:38
not Lightroom, a dark room, sort of feel of, oh, I can, what sort
32:44
of magic can I make happen?
32:45
Inbal Sivan: What sort of magic can I make happen? And it was,
32:47
and it's the same magic as the dark room. It's no different,
32:50
yeah.
32:51
Casey Fatchett: And that's, you know, I always kind of laugh
32:54
again when people say, like, oh, well, you know, before
32:56
Photoshop, you know, we just, we had real photos. And like, you
32:59
know, like, I hate to show you some Ansel Adams, like grease
33:04
pen markups of, you know, photos and how much editing he actually
33:08
Inbal Sivan: did in the dark Ansel Adams is the least of it,
33:11
at least he stayed faithful representation. But I mean,
33:14
like, you know, Jerry julesman And like, I mean, there's lots
33:17
of photographers who did not maintain faithfulness to what
33:24
we're seeing, right, and use the document all sorts of
33:27
interesting ways, and Solarization, and there's all
33:30
kinds of stuff that people do. I don't
33:35
Casey Fatchett: know where I was going as early as, as early as,
33:38
like, the 1800s though. Like, people were you like spirit
33:40
photography. People were using double exposures to create,
33:43
like, spirit photos and build people with money. But, yeah,
33:49
it's been around forever. Like, whenever people say, like, oh,
33:51
it's because of Photoshop. Now, this stuff existed for
33:54
centuries, thing before, a century before.
33:58
Inbal Sivan: Yeah, it was just harder. But people were
34:01
absolutely doing it,
34:03
Casey Fatchett: for sure, and it's like, you know the but now
34:06
it's become so commonplace to say, Oh, you can Photoshop that,
34:10
right? And, like, they just say that, like, afterwards, like,
34:14
oh, you can that's nothing, right? Even if you know
34:19
Photoshop very well, and you're very good at it. It's going to
34:22
take time. It's going to take, you know, you're, like we said,
34:27
for whoever does it for me, right? If I'm outsourcing it and
34:30
having, right? We've whoever's doing it. It's going to take,
34:35
you know, time and with it's one of those things where I tell
34:38
people, like you were saying, like, I do a basic, like, Global
34:45
Edits to the photos to do, but I don't, like, I'm not removing
34:48
blemishes. I'm not, you know, brightening people's teeth or,
34:52
like, things like that. And when people say, like, Oh, can you do
34:54
this? I'm like, Well, that is extra and being very clear about
34:59
that sort of thing. Like. This is a, this is a service beyond
35:03
the basic service that I provide, not basic but, like,
35:06
what I beyond the normal circumstances.
35:10
Inbal Sivan: And I do that to everything I don't like doing,
35:12
like, everything I don't like doing, I'll have a happy price.
35:15
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, they're, they're gonna want it. Like,
35:18
okay, well, you're gonna it's a, it's an, if nothing else, it's a
35:22
headache, because you have to, like, okay, now I gotta
35:24
outsource this to somebody else. But kind of conversely, we are
35:31
currently as there have been many trends throughout time that
35:35
we talked about with the, you know, tilt shift and everything
35:39
else. We're currently in a imperfect sort of phase. I think
35:46
as far as esthetics go, there's a lot of like, people loving
35:50
like the feel of analog, like light leaks grain, softness or
35:56
blurriness, however you want to, like categorize it from your
36:02
perspective, like, why is this not like a new thing, even
36:07
though it's trendy right now? Why do you think it's feel it's
36:11
not a new thing?
36:13
Inbal Sivan: I think, I think it's, it's absolutely not a new
36:16
thing. I think the new aspect of it is that it's more deliberate
36:23
as a instead of, like happy accidents or like the just the
36:26
the randomness that occurs with with film, and just like the
36:29
nature of the medium, having these, you know, natural
36:33
imperfections, which you know people embrace or don't, and
36:36
that's Been cyclical too, but yeah, I mean, I went to art
36:44
school 2000 to 2004 and admittedly, that's a situation
36:50
in which you're not expected to produce professionally. So I
36:53
think it's probably different for someone who's trying to make
36:56
money, but experimentation and trying toy cameras, holgus
37:04
Diana's cross processing, layering textures onto your
37:09
negatives. Photographers scratching their negatives on
37:12
purpose to get all sorts of result light painting. I mean,
37:16
like people were, people were experimenting and trying things
37:20
out since the very beginning, like you said, with the spirit
37:22
photographs and, you know, the the fairy photographs and like,
37:26
from the very beginning, it's been more than just, like I
37:32
said, a faithful representation. So just like painters, you know,
37:37
in mid century, we're like, we don't, you know, the craft isn't
37:41
just representationalist. We can also use the nature of the
37:45
medium and the texture of paint, and, you know, the you know,
37:49
like, we can use all of these other things to to make art. And
37:53
I think that's that's been part of the photography legacy over
38:00
the years that while, I don't think that's true anymore, but
38:06
while, for most of the time, it was considered like a evidence,
38:11
like this is a photo, so therefore this happened, and
38:13
that's not really the case anymore, but photographers have
38:16
always been trying to use the medium creatively. And I think,
38:24
like one, one Shout Out is one of my favorite photographers,
38:30
Man Ray from the 30s and 40s, is a surrealist and the things, I
38:35
mean, he was, he experimented a lot, and some of the things that
38:37
he would do, like he would take a picture, print it and then put
38:41
objects on the photo and then take a picture of that. Or,
38:44
like, you know, like he invented some dark room techniques that
38:47
hadn't been done before. And that's, you know, that's 1930
38:50
1940 photography. Yeah, I think it's the motivation is different
38:56
now. I think it is a backlash to some, to some things that have
39:00
occurred in, you know, in photography, but I think that
39:04
there's, I've certainly seen a cycle of, you know, extreme
39:10
naturalism to extreme polish. And, you know, the the pendulum
39:18
has swung more than once during my career.
39:22
Casey Fatchett: But do you think that this, this current trend,
39:27
is about nostalgia or like you're like, you said, like,
39:31
kind of backlash to hyper perfection?
39:33
Inbal Sivan: Yeah, yeah. I think it's both. I think that the the
39:40
saturation of images and the fact that they don't I'm not
39:47
sure how to quite say this, but yeah, I think, I think nostalgia
39:50
is a big part of it. Nostalgia for a time when photos had more
39:53
of an aura and a meaning and weren't just like a constant
39:57
noise all around you all the time and. Um, so I think that
40:01
the nostalgia is a part of that, and we're just looking at like a
40:04
visual esthetic that was common when you had, like a wedding,
40:10
had like 100 photos, yeah, and that's it, and that's what you
40:14
get. So I think that they don't want the 100 photos, but they do
40:17
want the vibe of like each each photo is an individual work of
40:23
art and deliberate work of art, and and I think that, yeah, I
40:28
mean, I think that so much of our lives is robots doing
40:32
things. So I think that any element of imperfection is just
40:36
like a human element. So people are looking at a picture and
40:38
they're like, oh, a person did this, yes, person with a
40:43
relationship, a person with an you know, a person that is
40:47
imperfect and that could make mistakes and and not like, you
40:53
know, an AI that will just manufacture exactly what you're
40:57
looking for, without that authenticity, or that feeling of
41:01
authenticity. I don't think what's happening now is any more
41:03
authentic than it used to be. I think it has, it has the people
41:08
are looking for the feeling of authenticity. And people are
41:12
doing, you know, classic like, you know, motion blur, Dutch
41:17
angles. Like, none of this is new stuff, but people are seeing
41:20
it. A new generation is seeing it as you know, this is this has
41:24
a human element
41:25
Casey Fatchett: to it. I think there's a nostalgia. I mean, we
41:27
talk about a younger consumers, clients, things like that, as
41:34
well as younger photographers, they're nostalgic for a time
41:37
period they didn't experience, right? And they see those photos
41:42
is like, wow, these people are really enjoying themselves.
41:45
They're really they they're behaving like you said. This
41:47
isn't like, done by a computer or by a robot. Like, this is,
41:51
this is a real photo, like everything. And it was when the
41:55
sort of like, out of focus trend really sort of hit that it's
41:58
kind of crystallized for me. And like, people were doing this,
42:01
and then, like, they're just, like, throwing their focus,
42:03
like, way out, like, so that it, like, everything, anything goes
42:07
so it's like, super blurry. And I'm like, okay, and then, like,
42:11
in but they had people saying on like, social media, like, Why
42:14
doesn't my photo look like? This photo from like, the 80s or 90s,
42:19
or whatever, you know, I'm putting it out of focus. It out
42:21
of focus. It just doesn't look the same. It doesn't have the
42:22
same feeling to it. And I would say, well, let's explore why
42:27
that photo from the 80s, 90s is out of focus. Could be that the
42:31
film speed was and they had to, like, use a, like, a long
42:34
shutter to, like, try to capture something, to get enough light
42:38
to capture a photo. So that's what you got some like, blur
42:41
because that, or, you know, the camera moved like, let's, these
42:45
are the reasons that the things were out of a lot of stuff was
42:49
out of focus, like that. It's not like, let's, and if you want
42:52
to recreate that feeling, let's do it with some intention, and
42:55
not just it's got to be out of focus. Like, go for the look.
43:00
Look at the technical reasons why, and then you can start
43:05
recreating images that have that same
43:09
Inbal Sivan: Yeah, and I think that the barrier for entry
43:11
technically is so low in photography that there are
43:15
people who literally don't know that a slow shutter speed
43:18
creates blur like they don't know, and you know that it,
43:23
it's, it's very easy for a new photographer to make decent
43:26
looking images with current technology, especially, and
43:31
with, especially with current trends. I'm talking about direct
43:33
flash in particular, that any monkey could do. But anytime
43:37
they're trying to do something deliberately, there's definitely
43:39
a knowledge gap that that I've seen where they're like, I want
43:43
to make this look but it's as soon as something becomes
43:46
deliberate, you really kind of have to know your shit.
43:48
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, you have to know what you're doing. You
43:50
have to know how to light it, you have to know how to shoot
43:54
it. And it's like, I always bring up my trusty film cameras,
44:00
like, is it? Is, and say, you know, like, the max shutter
44:07
speed on this camera is a 1,000th of a second, you know,
44:11
like, this is the reason that this stuff was, you know, like
44:13
people dancing or whatever, out of focus, you know, because it's
44:18
a motion blur, because they were moving too fast for the camera
44:21
or whatever, or because I had to have it as wide open as I
44:25
possibly could, because I couldn't change just like I, you
44:29
know, I wasn't shooting with 1.4 or whatever. And you know, my
44:34
film speed is 400 or 800 even you couldn't go up to 128,000 on
44:40
your ISO, just to because
44:42
Inbal Sivan: I still can't emotionally.
44:45
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I don't go over. I think 12, I think is the
44:47
most I've ever gone up to
44:50
Inbal Sivan: 64 for me is like 8000 I'm already pushing it.
44:53
Yeah? I think I'm not, and it's fine, but I it's just like, it
44:57
feels weird, security blanket.
44:59
Casey Fatchett: Yeah. Yeah, it feels strange. You're like, this
45:01
is yeah, and, and I think that
45:04
Inbal Sivan: also regarding the like, the technical advancement
45:08
of high ISO, people are confusing enough light with good
45:15
light. And I think that's also kind of setting people back.
45:19
Like, yes, you have enough light to shoot a dance floor, or you
45:23
have enough light to shoot in the dark, that doesn't mean the
45:26
light is
45:26
Casey Fatchett: pretty, right? Yeah, it's muddy. Like, that's
45:30
one of the things that I try to teach people, is like color
45:33
depth, like when you have like this, when you're just shooting
45:37
in a dark room, even though you like can, even though you can do
45:41
it by bumping the ISO up. What are you getting? You're just
45:46
getting this sort of, like, muddy colored look in it might
45:50
look good in black and white, I don't know. Like, you know,
45:52
depends on the shot, whatever. But like, color wise, it looks,
45:56
looks really bad if you want the
45:58
Inbal Sivan: direction, the direction of the light, like, is
46:00
it? Is the face cleanly lit? Like, is is it interesting
46:06
light? Is it, or is it just like, I have enough light, so
46:08
I'm going to do it. You know, that's to me, that's kind of
46:11
sad, like you still have to pay attention, intentionality
46:14
Casey Fatchett: again, you're thinking about it and going,
46:18
Hey, I like this light, or do I want to change it somehow,
46:21
right? And knowing that you can control it, and figuring out how
46:27
to do that like, it's a, it's a, you know, career long journey
46:33
Inbal Sivan: that carried my business, like I was the
46:35
lighting person. I think that's less desirable now in terms of,
46:40
like, the very elaborate setups that I used to do. But for a
46:43
long time I was doing like I was doing things that few fewer were
46:49
doing early on and and that that carried me for a long time, and
46:56
that was my reputation for a long time, because I started out
47:00
like, I think a lot of wedding photographers start out in
47:04
wedding photography, but I was, I started out, I went, like I
47:09
said, I went to college, I went to SVA, and had a brief art
47:12
career, and I was making these very, very elaborate,
47:17
constructed narratives a La Gregory Crutzen or Philip Logan
47:21
to court show and costumes, and I'd build sets, and I'd hire
47:24
models, and I do like all this lighting, and I come from this
47:29
idea of, here's a blank sheet of paper. Now make an image from
47:34
the ground up. And I think that gave me a huge advantage in the
47:38
beginning, where people hadn't, or a lot of people, certainly at
47:43
my price point, when I was starting out, people hadn't seen
47:45
that kind of Polish in wedding photos. So I think that I came
47:51
at it from, like a more, I'm not going to say editorial
47:56
perspective, but like more, you know, art directed, and and and
48:02
constructed and manufactured.
48:05
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's the being able to build an image and
48:10
really make an image, and as opposed to sort of, I don't
48:15
know, I came at wedding photography from I was a
48:20
photojournalist first, and then and hobbyist. And then I was
48:24
doing headshots, and I was doing band photos, live music
48:30
photography, with shot on film. So that was like, just like
48:34
learning the nerve wracking. And, you know, like, again, I
48:39
had two camera bodies with two different film speeds. And that
48:43
was that was it, but it taught me a lot about lighting and
48:47
seeing the light and like moving and how light could just change
48:51
instantaneously, which was a whole different I think there's
48:56
a lot of people at the time when I got into wedding photography
49:00
that people had experience with, I had, like, a completely
49:04
different mindset
49:07
Inbal Sivan: for how I approached it. Back then it was,
49:09
you know, now the the way that people learn photography,
49:13
certainly wedding photography, is entirely through imitation,
49:17
because there's still such a saturation of work and and I
49:20
think it really begets homogeny in images, because everybody's
49:24
just like, what is somebody else doing? I'm going to do that too.
49:27
But when we were starting out, where are you going to look for
49:29
wedding photos? Like, it wasn't something that's available and
49:32
accessible in terms of, like, what are other photographers
49:35
doing? And how can I do that too? It's every man for himself.
49:38
In my first wedding in 2002 I don't think I'd ever seen
49:42
wedding pictures before, except for maybe, like my parents
49:45
wedding album.
49:46
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that. I think, honestly, when I
49:50
look back at my career, I think that when the Internet became a
49:55
thing, and I started seeing a lot more wedding photographers
49:57
work, I think that actually hurt. Or my creativity, because
50:02
I was like, Oh, wait, this is what other people are doing. And
50:09
my original approach was very much from a storytelling. I
50:15
mean, the word documentary gets thrown around a lot these days,
50:20
editorial also, but like, yeah, it was really much, very much
50:23
for me, a photo journalistic approach of just being because
50:27
that was my background, of doing anything that was as it was
50:31
happening.
50:32
Inbal Sivan: You find it difficult to like change the
50:36
photojournalism mindset from never never touch anything,
50:40
don't move a water bottle. Everything has to be accurate to
50:43
the reality, to weddings, where that's a lot looser and you have
50:46
more freedom, but also higher expectations to make
50:48
Casey Fatchett: things look good. Yeah, I think that in the
50:51
very beginning I was very resistant to that, to touching
50:54
anything, to doing anything, and then as years went by, I made it
50:59
more of a thing for the people involved to change it, where I
51:04
would say, like, Hey, if you want this to be clean, you guys
51:10
clean it up or whatever. Yeah, just like, that's that's up to
51:13
you. And if you don't, you don't care, that's what you want.
51:15
Fine, yeah, it's gonna we're gonna have all the whatever is,
51:19
like warts and all.
51:21
Inbal Sivan: If, like, a bride is putting her dress on and
51:23
there's like, a window somewhere else, you know, you have to be
51:27
like, Hey, can you do that over there? Right? Not journalism,
51:31
Casey Fatchett: yeah, exactly like, let's come over this way,
51:33
where the light is so much better, like, you know, and you
51:37
can have this beautiful, naturally lit, you know, photo,
51:40
instead of standing over here in the corner where it's dark and
51:45
gross, oh, just like, yeah, I get it. That's a good way of
51:51
putting it, yeah. It's just like, Okay, you're not getting a
51:54
good photo here. It's just like, it doesn't look it looks
51:56
crowded, it looks cramped. And I can understand it's like, that's
51:59
the only option we have. Then we go with that, and that's, that's
52:01
part of the story. But like, when you were like, when you
52:03
were, you're three steps away from, like a beautiful, like
52:08
wonderful window light and everything. It's like, let's
52:11
just take those few steps. And, yeah, it was hard to it was hard
52:14
to get over that and be and kind of influencing things there. And
52:18
I'm normally a pretty it's easier for me because I get to
52:23
know my clients beforehand, when I was first doing this, it was,
52:27
it was, I was not as good at it. And when I don't know somebody,
52:33
it's hard for me to just like talk to them. So unless we have
52:39
common ground in some way, it's easy for me to talk to
52:42
photographers, because this is, you know, my life as well. But
52:47
like when it was, when I was first starting out in weddings,
52:49
it was hard for me to, like, say that to people like, say, hey,
52:53
you know we could do here, like, let's just, let's just turn a
52:56
quarter of a turn, and it's gonna make everybody's life so
53:01
much better.
53:03
Inbal Sivan: I was super used to that. But I definitely have
53:07
colleagues who were like, I mean, in New York, who were,
53:09
like, from ICP or, you know, whatever, and they had a much
53:14
higher resistance, like you to, you know, having any impact on
53:19
the scene. But for me, right away, I was like, Yeah, this is
53:24
light. This is, you know, clean this up, probably even more than
53:27
I do now.
53:29
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that I've gone back and forth on
53:33
it, like, I think that originally I was super resistant
53:35
to it. Then I realized that even just a mild change or
53:42
suggestion, like, I'm not changing their interactions with
53:45
one another, or like, you know what they're doing. I wasn't
53:48
telling them to put their hands in a certain place, or to, like,
53:52
look a certain way. But like, just like, again, it just comes
53:58
about shaping the light and like, seeing light and where,
54:00
like the best, especially if I'm going to do a portrait of a
54:03
couple or somewhere, like, I'm not going to have them stand,
54:06
you know, in the shadows, if that's not kind of a shot that
54:08
I'm going for, right?
54:11
Inbal Sivan: And I think, I think, like, what people who
54:13
started out as documentarians, and I don't know photojournalism
54:17
specifically, but like, the the the, the idea, like, what, what
54:21
you fight for and hope for and beg for, as a documentarian, is
54:25
access, yeah, and you don't want to, you don't want to shake any
54:29
boats or rock any boats. You're like, Okay, you're letting me in
54:33
here. I'm just going to be very discreet and quiet, and I'm not
54:37
going to affect anything. I'm not going to, you know, not
54:40
going to raise any I'm not going to get any attention, because
54:44
you're letting me into your life, and you're letting me into
54:47
this, you know, into this intimate situation of yours. And
54:51
and I think with weddings, one of the, one of the really fun
54:55
things about shooting weddings is that the access isn't only
54:58
granted like they. Want you there. They pay you to be there.
55:02
They want those photos and and having that kind of access gives
55:06
you a hell of a lot of freedom, like they you know, the clients
55:10
are putting their trust in you, and you can basically do
55:13
whatever you want. You can clean up or not clean up, or you can
55:17
move things around or not move things around, but you're not
55:21
going to get dinged by anyone for, you know, just doing what
55:24
you do
55:25
Casey Fatchett: Right, fo being involved in some way, right? And
55:27
I think it's really clear, depending on, like, what your
55:30
comfort level is as a photographer, whether you want
55:33
to be involved in, like, I'm going to move something around,
55:36
or I'm going to do this whatever, like, whatever your
55:39
choice is, you're very clear with your clients, yeah, what
55:42
did it like? What you do if you're gonna go, if you're not
55:45
clear with people, then you go in and you just start moving
55:49
things around. And people are like, what's going on? Say,
55:52
Well, this is part of my process. You should have
55:54
explained that to them ahead of time, just so that they're ready
55:58
for it. Not just like, yeah, the you're not just, like walking
56:01
into it and without them being prepared. I mean, I don't know
56:04
Inbal Sivan: that I give clients a heads up, but I think, I don't
56:07
think a lot of clients are expecting your photojournalism.
56:12
I mean, necessarily even know what that is, or what the
56:15
benefit of that is. Like, they just want the pictures to look
56:17
good, right?
56:18
Casey Fatchett: But if you do, like elaborate, like, set things
56:20
up elaborately and like, you don't tell them beforehand. I
56:24
think they're gonna they don't know. They're gonna be like,
56:26
shocked. Like, okay, yeah, I have a friend who's a luxury
56:30
wedding photographer, and he has like, certain shots that he does
56:36
at weddings that are, like, very painterly, have heavily involved
56:41
lighting. But he's like, we can only do three of these, right?
56:45
We only have enough time. Like, he's very specific, like, we
56:47
only have enough time for me to maybe do two, maybe three,
56:50
because it's a very elaborate lighting setup. It's compositing
56:54
a lot of things so, and he's very clear with his clients,
56:58
like, this isn't like, we can just do, you know, 10 or 20 of
57:02
them? It's like, this is, this is a, this is a, we get one shot
57:06
at each one of these, and that's about it, because each one takes
57:08
about 10 minutes to do. So it's very clear about that. Yeah, I
57:13
do feel like
57:14
Inbal Sivan: I've gotten really, really fast. And I think that I
57:18
feel like I could do three lighting setups if I really
57:21
needed to with help, like, with an assistant. But I feel like I
57:25
have, I've done it so much. I have a very solid idea of I
57:27
don't need to do a lot of, like experimenting and polaroiding.
57:30
Like, was this right, or is that better? Like, I kind of know, I
57:34
kind of know what I want.
57:37
Casey Fatchett: And we talked about this a little bit with,
57:40
like, coming into this, like, pre social media, pre, kind of,
57:45
you know, I guess early days of the internet, and not really
57:50
being able to see other people's work to now when, like, the work
57:56
is everywhere it's on social media, like the algorithm is
57:59
driving certain things. How do you think that that a that image
58:04
consumption, both for clients and for photographers, has
58:09
changed the way that photographers like create and
58:12
promote their work?
58:16
Inbal Sivan: I think probably the biggest is the fact that
58:19
photographers today need to wear so many hats. We need to be
58:24
marketers. We need to be, you know, content creators. Every
58:28
image needs to fight with all the other pictures that it's up
58:33
against, and not just the other pictures, but also the speed of
58:37
the scroll, yeah, like, it's got to grab you. And a lot of people
58:42
are like, you know, putting short form videos of like,
58:46
behind the scenes, and for some reason that appeals to Gen Z. I
58:51
haven't done it, but, but I think that there's just, like, a
58:55
lot, a bigger, you know, universe around making images
58:59
now that has to also be, you know, dealt with and addressed.
59:04
Not for me, I don't do any of it, but I see that that's, you
59:08
know, that's what people are doing. I'm just, you know, I
59:13
think, for for us, for people who've been working as long as
59:17
we have, we're just very lucky that we have an established
59:21
referral base that, I mean, that sustains my business entirely.
59:27
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I think that there's a what I worry
59:31
about is people who and again, this is something I try to pass
59:35
along to anybody who I'm mentoring or talking to or
59:39
whatever, like don't get so involved in trends. Do you don't
59:45
have your own style? Like you don't have your own
59:48
Inbal Sivan: not just not having your own style. But also, nobody
59:51
wants their wedding photos in 30 years to be like, Oh, that is so
59:54
2026, nobody wants that.
59:58
Casey Fatchett: That exactly is what i. To my, like, potential
1:00:01
clients, when they ask, if anybody ever asks what my style
1:00:04
is, I'm like, saying it's very true. It's a true like, it's
1:00:08
true to life. If the colors, like I made, the colors might
1:00:12
get a little pop to them, or whatever, like you said, We're
1:00:14
gonna make you look your best. But it's not gonna look like
1:00:17
you're not gonna look and go like, Wait, my dress wasn't that
1:00:20
color or, you know, like,
1:00:23
Inbal Sivan: like me and like the rest of us can look back at
1:00:26
photos you shot 15 years ago and, like, just cringe so hard.
1:00:31
Casey Fatchett: I mean, well, I decided about, I don't know, I
1:00:37
can remember how many we discussed this with the tilt
1:00:40
shift. Like, I decided after a while, like, after a few years,
1:00:43
I did my occasional, selective color photos early on, because
1:00:49
Photoshop was, you know, tempting mistress, and I
1:00:54
thought, I can do this. And there were a couple of shots
1:00:56
that actually, like, made sense. One, there was a bride who is an
1:01:01
illustrator, and she drew everything, like in just ink,
1:01:04
except for the red shoes of the main character of her
1:01:07
illustrated books. So I did a couple of shots, because she had
1:01:12
these, like, ruby red slippers that she wore for the wedding.
1:01:14
So I did a couple shots and just black and white with, like the
1:01:17
slippers and red. So that was very fitting for her. And I
1:01:20
think that was the last time I ever did it. But, yeah, I, like,
1:01:25
after like, five years or so, I decided, like, I gotta stop,
1:01:31
like, trying to keep up with the trends, because then it's like
1:01:35
you're chasing that stuff in and timelessness.
1:01:39
Inbal Sivan: I struggle with that today because the current
1:01:42
trends I really like I'm I'm enjoying it, but I also don't
1:01:47
want to fall into the trap of making permanent decisions, not
1:01:55
editing, not like, you know, slapping on a preset, being
1:01:58
like, Hey, I like this. I don't like that, but just in the
1:02:00
original image making. I don't want to make something that I'm
1:02:03
like later. I could have done this better. I could have done
1:02:05
this differently, more more truthfully, more authentically
1:02:08
than just like now, this is what everybody's doing. Even though I
1:02:11
really do enjoy I like the looser, more organic style
1:02:15
that's in vogue now. I enjoy it a lot, and I, you know, it's
1:02:20
taken me a while to get on board with direct flash, just because
1:02:24
I have, I'm so attached to, you know, my lighting prowess, yeah.
1:02:30
But I mean, definitely I, I mean, when I was in school, you
1:02:36
know, we loved man golden and Ouija and Jurgen teller, and,
1:02:41
you know, like this. This isn't new either. This is, you know,
1:02:44
it's always been, like, a quick and dirty, like, yeah. This is,
1:02:48
you know, this. This is a little grittier, and this is a little
1:02:51
more like party and, you know, and I like it, but I definitely
1:02:56
don't want down the line to be like, Wow, this. This photo
1:02:59
looks trendy for its time, right?
1:03:03
Casey Fatchett: It looks like I need to
1:03:04
Inbal Sivan: figure out where to draw that line. It's really hard
1:03:06
to
1:03:07
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's, well, I think it's because we've
1:03:10
mixed, like, the current trends are, like, mixing esthetics
1:03:14
from, you know, different time periods. And it's it becomes
1:03:19
like, you're sort of like, okay, well, the thing that I thought
1:03:24
was timeless is now becoming done to a saturation point. I
1:03:28
think it's like you look, think of it like the sliders in the in
1:03:33
in editing software, whatever like you like, going from like
1:03:37
the whatever normal standard to like all the way up to the end,
1:03:42
and give it get, enhance as much as possible. It feels like that.
1:03:47
Yeah, yes. Clarity, 100 let's get it. Texture. That's the best
1:03:52
photos, increased texture and clarity up to 100 with a that
1:03:56
you again, you over saturate the feel and the look of it. And,
1:04:01
yeah, that's something I it's funny, because I feel like this,
1:04:05
with the exception of direct flash, like, the current trends
1:04:10
have, like, really fit my style, like, as it was anyway,
1:04:14
Inbal Sivan: and I wanted to do but didn't feel like I could.
1:04:18
Casey Fatchett: Yeah. And if you feel like, okay, now I can be
1:04:21
comfortable in doing this, because this because this is in
1:04:23
vogue now, the Yeah, you feel so I'm like, Oh, this is just who I
1:04:32
already am. For the most part, I can lean into it a little bit
1:04:36
more, but like, the, like, I agree with what you said. Like
1:04:39
the there's a hesitance, because then it feels like, oh, are
1:04:43
people going to think that I'm just doing this to be trendy as
1:04:48
well and and one of the things I always tell my clients is, you
1:04:51
know, I do the reason that I try to be truthful is a word that I
1:04:56
in. How I capture things is that I don't want them to look back
1:04:59
at. In 20 years, and go, Oh, that was so 2026 that was so
1:05:04
2020 and
1:05:04
Inbal Sivan: then from a part of me, that's like, maybe I do,
1:05:07
because you look at old wedding photos, and they're an artifact
1:05:10
of their time, and that's interesting, too. So, you know,
1:05:13
I don't know, yeah.
1:05:15
Casey Fatchett: I mean I look at my parents wedding photos and I
1:05:18
think like, oh, this is like, but then I also think of like,
1:05:21
how that was shaped by the technology. They were limited,
1:05:25
you know, like we had to stage everything because, you know,
1:05:29
you're getting, you're shooting it medium format, or whatever,
1:05:33
and you you're you had to, like, stage everything because, you
1:05:37
know, we're setting up these lights because, you know, we
1:05:40
again, like, the year limited by film speeds and all sorts of
1:05:44
other things. It's like, so we're gonna stage this, because
1:05:48
otherwise we don't get the photo. And, like, it was hard to
1:05:52
do photo. People weren't doing the 35 millimeter photo,
1:05:55
journalistic film of weddings like that. Wasn't that. Wasn't
1:05:59
the people think of film
1:06:00
Inbal Sivan: I shot my first wedding on a you're not gonna
1:06:03
believe this, on a Mamiya Z, yeah? Like, on a goddamn tripod,
1:06:08
Casey Fatchett: yeah, yeah, I believe it. But like, when I
1:06:10
talk about it to people, and they like, I was not doing when
1:06:15
I started out. I was shooting 35 millimeter but like, for the
1:06:18
most part, most people were not.
1:06:23
Inbal Sivan: Format was a compromise. I for two years, I
1:06:26
shot large format, four or five exclusively for two years, four
1:06:29
or five on location with, like, a view camera, not even a field
1:06:33
camera, like a whole monorail view can. Yeah, I really
1:06:37
hardcore. And then for my first wedding, I was like, No, I
1:06:39
can't. I don't think I can, because that, because, with
1:06:42
that, a photo shoot is five, six frames, period, yeah,
1:06:46
Casey Fatchett: yeah, it's in your, like, you said before,
1:06:50
like, when, back when weddings, they delivered 100 photos, yeah,
1:06:54
yeah, maximum to you and and I remember, Like, even shooting on
1:07:00
35 millimeter. I was delivering maybe 150 to 200 maybe a total
1:07:08
for a full eight hour day. And people were like, Oh, you
1:07:13
Inbal Sivan: just get an album. You don't get a digital gallery.
1:07:15
You get an album of photos with, you know, some photos, get some
1:07:18
Casey Fatchett: proofs, and then you got an album, and that was
1:07:21
what you got? Yeah, you got 30 or 40 pictures in an album.
1:07:25
Yeah, you didn't have, I, there's the my, I just realized
1:07:31
this. Just found out this is the word dibblings. Nephews and
1:07:37
niece would ask, like, Oh, we're all grandma, grandma's wedding
1:07:43
photos. Like, where we just have, like, the album. I'm like,
1:07:45
that's all you got. There are not, there's not, like a box
1:07:50
somewhere of like, hundreds of pictures that you didn't see.
1:07:53
You're seeing the photos that they had. Yeah, it's Yeah. And
1:07:57
this
1:08:00
Inbal Sivan: This is a shift. We didn't talk about just the
1:08:01
volume of photos that the photos that's expected.
1:08:03
Casey Fatchett: Yeah. I think it goes back to what we were
1:08:06
saying, like we were expected to a deliver more, more images
1:08:12
faster and with more work done to them right exactly in this
1:08:19
quick period of time. And there is that, like that desire for
1:08:26
instant gratification, which, just because that phone in our
1:08:30
hands can give us everything that I can take a picture, I can
1:08:36
email it, I can send it, text it to somebody,
1:08:39
Inbal Sivan: I can whatever the cameras are good. Phone cameras
1:08:40
are good. I've been known to take a picture or two on a phone
1:08:43
at a wedding.
1:08:44
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, that's the we talked about, like you had
1:08:48
mentioned. And I wanted to bring it up about the about the
1:08:52
realness of images and like, what's considered real. But
1:08:56
there has actually been legal precedent where there and I,
1:09:00
people who listen regularly have heard me mention this before,
1:09:03
there was legal precedent set like last year, or maybe it was
1:09:06
2024, where a phone photo was not allowed as evidence in a
1:09:15
legal proceeding because it automatically received
1:09:19
processing and filtering in it. So it is, was not a genuine
1:09:26
capture of what happened. So, because there's all this stuff
1:09:31
that, like, just goes in like, and it becomes more and more so
1:09:34
with phones, is like, there's more, like, automatic processing
1:09:38
going into it like, and I, I've done interviews about this, but
1:09:44
like, the part of the backlash we're talking about, I think, is
1:09:48
that younger people are want to see real photos of themselves.
1:09:52
Definitely, they want to see what things really look like, as
1:09:56
opposed to, I think that's part of what this current trend is
1:09:59
about. Is. Like, it's also like, they want to see people look
1:10:03
like people, instead of like mannequins.
1:10:06
Inbal Sivan: Yeah. I mean, photography has always been
1:10:08
about the, you know, kind of liminal space where perception
1:10:11
and reality meet. And there's been, like, a shift over time,
1:10:15
you know, more towards perception, more towards
1:10:17
reality. And you know now where you know we're looking at people
1:10:23
who want a more faithful a more faithful documentation, or at
1:10:29
least that's what they say they want.
1:10:32
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's, it's all. You have to really listen
1:10:39
to people
1:10:39
Inbal Sivan: yes
1:10:40
Casey Fatchett: and figuring out what they actually want, and
1:10:43
kind of know how to interpret what they're saying. And a
1:10:48
Inbal Sivan: lot of them just want what they've seen most,
1:10:50
even
1:10:51
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, and that's one of the things we talk about.
1:10:53
Like, I say like, yeah, people, nobody, like, not nobody, but
1:10:59
the vast majority of people are coming to hire you as a
1:11:02
photographer, whatever type of photography that you do, are not
1:11:04
going to come in and say, like, I want you to shoot with an 85
1:11:07
millimeter at 1.2 and and I want you to use off camera flash and
1:11:12
all these things are not going to like, come in there and give
1:11:15
you the technical aspects of what they Want shot.
1:11:21
Inbal Sivan: They're gonna say, right? But they're also
1:11:23
relatively easy to please because they're lay people and
1:11:26
they haven't been around the block. So like, you know, like,
1:11:29
I'll tell a client at a meeting, I'll be like, yeah, I, you know,
1:11:31
I shoot in a primarily documentary approach. I don't
1:11:33
manufacture moments. And they're like, Oh, my God, that's exactly
1:11:35
what I'm looking for. And I'm like, every photographer, like,
1:11:38
literally everyone you talk to is going to be doing this,
1:11:41
right? But you're so uneducated about, you know, wedding
1:11:43
photography and the different styles that exist, and what it,
1:11:46
you know, what it is, that they're just like, oh, wow, I
1:11:48
can't believe you completely nailed the exact thing that I'm
1:11:51
looking for. I think what's
1:11:52
Casey Fatchett: interesting there is you say, like,
1:11:54
everybody's gonna say that, like, you have to, if you really
1:11:56
want to connect with people, you need to go further in that. And,
1:12:00
like, when you're meeting with them and talking to them and
1:12:02
say, Okay, well, let's dig a little deeper. And when you can
1:12:07
go that step past what everybody else is going to say is when you
1:12:12
really build that connection with a potential client, and
1:12:14
hopefully, like, set yourself apart because you try to expand
1:12:19
their visual vocabulary, I guess, would be a good way of
1:12:22
putting it, so that they can tell you like, what about that
1:12:28
appeals to them and like, even though you said like, Okay,
1:12:31
well, we've established that you like candid, non influenced
1:12:35
whatever you want to call it photography, like, okay, so what
1:12:40
is it you want to see, like, when you get these pictures
1:12:43
back? What's the thing you're looking forward to seeing the
1:12:46
most when you get the pictures back? So let's take it a step
1:12:49
further and then, like, really connect with them and like, show
1:12:52
that it's important to you to, like, get them what they want,
1:12:55
and you've then distinguished yourself from the rest of the
1:12:59
crowd.
1:13:01
Inbal Sivan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know,
1:13:03
something of particular importance to me, because I, I,
1:13:07
you know, I come from a very small, faraway country, and my
1:13:10
husband is from Illinois, and our wedding was, you know,
1:13:15
people met at my wedding that never met before and never will
1:13:19
again, like these, you know, these small interactions between
1:13:24
worlds coming together. None of them are hero shots, you know,
1:13:27
none of them are like, Instagram ready, but they're meaningful.
1:13:31
They're incredibly meaningful to me, and that's true every
1:13:33
client. So that's always talk about, and say, Yeah, this, you
1:13:36
know, this is of particular importance to me. I'm aware of
1:13:39
this dynamic. And, you know, like, for example, you know, I
1:13:44
just yesterday, I booked a wedding with a lesbian couple,
1:13:50
and they were like, you know, one of the brides was like,
1:13:52
Yeah, you know, my parents haven't been super supportive,
1:13:54
and it's very complicated and, and I'm like, Yeah, you know, I
1:13:57
know what it's like to have a chosen family that's as
1:14:01
important. So I'm not coming into this wedding being like, I
1:14:03
got to get mom and dad as much as possible, because the dynamic
1:14:06
is different. And you know, the the the hierarchy of importance
1:14:11
is, is unique to this wedding. Yeah, I
1:14:14
Casey Fatchett: think that you need to, as a photographer,
1:14:17
especially if you're doing weddings or, like, family
1:14:21
portraits, or whatever you're doing is ask questions about
1:14:25
those dynamics going into it so that you understand what's going
1:14:29
on, because it's happened in so many times. Like, if, and I
1:14:33
learned it by having been put in the a weird situation with,
1:14:37
like, oh, you know, my parents are divorced, and like being
1:14:41
told, Oh, they're amiable, but they weren't or whatever. And
1:14:45
like, instead of, like, digging into it a little bit and saying,
1:14:49
like, if there's any situations that I should be aware of, like,
1:14:54
let's discuss it, because that was one of my one of my first
1:14:58
weddings, and which led to a huge retouching job, which. Was
1:15:02
extra because the father of the bride came back to me and said,
1:15:06
the only picture I have with my sister has my ex wife in it. Can
1:15:10
you remove her from the photo? I mean, it's not that I'm like mad
1:15:15
whatever that she was there, but, like, I'd rather like have
1:15:19
this picture of us that my ex wife is not in. So, like, I had
1:15:23
to, like, take her out of the middle of the photo, because she
1:15:27
was right in the middle, and, like, push everybody together.
1:15:31
And this is back in
1:15:33
Inbal Sivan: People need to take a little responsibility. You
1:15:35
want a picture with your sister, ask for it, right?
1:15:37
Casey Fatchett: Yeah. And I think it was just,
1:15:39
Inbal Sivan: I just had a complaint, not just but last
1:15:41
year, I had a complaint from a bride that I had done this,
1:15:43
like, very Vogue setup for the wedding party, and it looks
1:15:47
fantastic. But then later on, she was really upset that I
1:15:50
didn't get just a lineup photo. And I'm like, you were there. I
1:15:53
didn't say this to her, but I'm like, you were there if this
1:15:55
isn't what you wanted, if you wanted a standard lineup photo
1:15:58
where, you know, where was your voice.
1:16:00
Casey Fatchett: Like, yes, which is why I always ask, like,
1:16:03
people, like, we go through it before, ahead of time, like,
1:16:05
let's talk about what photos your family's gonna want, what
1:16:09
photos you're gonna want. And you can overcover everything,
1:16:12
right? You can never, you can never say that, because, like,
1:16:14
it was where I was going, was I had this wedding where we had
1:16:19
done all that, we'd gone through everything. And then I got a
1:16:23
call from a bride two days after the wedding. She's she's not
1:16:29
seen the photos yet, where she said, we didn't get enough
1:16:34
photos of me by myself. Okay. Well, Day of I had said, Think
1:16:41
we're good, like we were trying to, I was trying to make up on
1:16:44
the schedule. I said, you know, we've done these couple of
1:16:47
different locations with you. Like, do you feel like you could
1:16:51
have said at that time, like, I want more photos of me. But the
1:16:55
other one that really got me was, there's no photos of me and
1:16:57
my godparents. And I said, How would you know a and she's like,
1:17:03
well, we didn't take pictures with them. And I was like, were
1:17:07
they on the list of people that you had said you wanted pictures
1:17:09
with? And she's like, I'm like, were they there ahead of time
1:17:11
for portraits? No. How would I have known that you wanted
1:17:18
photos with these people? There was never a moment where you
1:17:22
said, Hey, let's get a picture of me with my godparents.
1:17:24
They're over here. There's no way to know, right? I wouldn't
1:17:27
have known who they were, because there's no there was no
1:17:31
like, Oh, here's a big announcement of who my God
1:17:35
parents are, and that you want photos with them so that there
1:17:39
again, yes, there's, you need to take some individual
1:17:41
responsibility. But, yeah, that was what was like the first
1:17:45
times that I my first wedding, was like, Hey, we're gonna do
1:17:48
this massive, like, retouching project. I got paid for it. I
1:17:53
was good, nice money. But like, and actually, still to this day,
1:17:57
one of my, like, think it came out great because I managed,
1:18:00
like, I had to, like, create sky. This is what for all of
1:18:03
these AI, tools and stuff, and like, moving people together,
1:18:07
and like, I managed to, like, get it to look natural and
1:18:10
Inbal Sivan: without a plate shot, because you didn't know,
1:18:12
yeah,
1:18:13
Casey Fatchett: I felt I was just like, oh, this is great.
1:18:17
This is fantastic. I'm so proud of this. I with all this
1:18:22
saturation of images, how would you encourage photographers,
1:18:27
like, what would you suggest they do to develop their own
1:18:33
voice and just not react to like, the trends we've been
1:18:38
talking about, like, oh, this got like, this more natural
1:18:43
Listen, but not just like, oh, this is my life now. And like,
1:18:49
be yourself, but like, find your way into it.
1:18:54
Inbal Sivan: That is a great question. And I think, like you
1:18:59
said earlier, that just like looking at other wedding
1:19:01
photographers as ultimately a hindrance. It, you know, it
1:19:05
doesn't, it doesn't give you anything, really, except for
1:19:10
opportunities to imitate something that somebody else has
1:19:13
done. I know that I like, I don't use Instagram or
1:19:19
Pinterest, like, I don't really look at those things. My visual
1:19:25
inspiration comes from outside of wedding photography
1:19:27
exclusively. Like, I am not looking at other people's
1:19:29
wedding photos, and I don't unless I'm forced to clock her
1:19:32
orange style Ludwig von. But I think that there are a lot of
1:19:41
very obvious inspirations. And I can talk a lot about, you know,
1:19:46
the directors and cinematographers that inspire
1:19:48
me, the painters, you know, the architects. But I think that the
1:19:54
the main crux of it is. That an artist is never off the clock.
1:20:04
So when I walk around in the world, camera or no, I'm
1:20:08
looking, I'm paying attention. I'm noticing light, I'm noticing
1:20:11
compositions. I travel a fair bit, and that really helps,
1:20:15
because you see new visuals, and it's exciting and interesting,
1:20:18
but and I don't, I don't take a lot of pictures when I travel,
1:20:22
but I am always, always paying attention and trying to see new
1:20:27
things or see new perspectives on things. And I think that's a
1:20:31
big part of keeping that skill, exercising that muscle. But I do
1:20:40
think that, like there are some must, must consume media for
1:20:46
photographers like Rubens, Vermeer, Caravaggio, you know,
1:20:57
even, even something like El Greco, El Greco is an
1:21:00
interesting case, because it's not, there's not a discernible
1:21:02
light source, it's just subjects are glowing from within. And
1:21:06
it's like an interesting challenge to see. Like, how can
1:21:08
I, you know, how can I, how can I use that? I can't, obviously,
1:21:13
I can't do that, but how can I use that visual as inspiration?
1:21:18
And there are film directors like I'm I'm partial to Kubrick
1:21:24
and David Lynch and Peter Greenaway, use of color, use of
1:21:29
light. Barry Lyndon is a visual masterpiece. I mean, watch it
1:21:32
with the sound off, or like, In the Mood for Love, which I think
1:21:36
every photographer who likes these trends should watch in the
1:21:39
mood for love, because these, like this, like, soft, warm,
1:21:44
ambient vibe, vibey vibe, yeah, is very much. Is very much at
1:21:50
play. Owen brothers, like all Roger Deakins, like all the
1:21:55
Roger Deakins movies, I'm like, yes, absolutely. I'm in, like
1:22:00
you said you when you photographed, you know, concerts
1:22:03
like theater and concert lighting. Yeah, that's very
1:22:06
interesting. It's a very interesting way to look at
1:22:08
light. I just got back from Mexico City a couple days ago,
1:22:14
and they have a celebrated architect named Luis Barragan.
1:22:19
He's there like Frank Lloyd Wright, and he has several
1:22:22
buildings in Mexico City, and I went to a few of them. I went to
1:22:25
his his art home and studio Casa de Luis baragon, which is open
1:22:30
to people you have to make an appointment, and some of his
1:22:33
other buildings, which are, you know, active like people live
1:22:35
there, but they still have tours. And I urge you and your
1:22:39
listeners to check him out, because the way that he uses
1:22:43
light and color and even composition, like the way he
1:22:46
composes a building what belongs, where I find it
1:22:51
inspiring and interesting. And you know, there's, there's no,
1:22:57
there's no end to visual inspiration out there. You just
1:23:02
have to break out of the out of the little box.
1:23:05
Casey Fatchett: I think that. I mean, I'm a huge movie nerd, so
1:23:09
like that. That was probably the beginning of my visual
1:23:13
vocabulary. I mean, I agree. Go to museums. Go see the go see
1:23:19
new places. Go see architecture, all sorts of you know, like,
1:23:23
look at art, look at other things, everybody inspire you.
1:23:27
But like movies, they were my introduction to like lighting.
1:23:32
It's like, like, how does this lit? Like, how is this? There's
1:23:34
a there's a service out there somewhere. I can't remember the
1:23:38
name of it, but like, it has just like, these vast collection
1:23:41
of like stills from movies, like, just like that, like still
1:23:45
photography from the set, but like stills of like scene like,
1:23:49
these very like, famous scenes from movies. And like, you can
1:23:51
just kind of like, sit there and, like, actually look at the
1:23:54
still and go, like, Oh my gosh. Like, they're works of art.
1:23:56
Like, it's just, this is, like a you know fact that it's just,
1:23:58
it's, it's moving, kind of like, makes you so in some instances,
1:24:02
it like, looks like a, you know, this, this is a photo that
1:24:07
belongs in a museum.
1:24:08
Inbal Sivan: Yeah, it's astonishing. And that's why,
1:24:11
like, you know, I was definitely in the, in the, you know, the
1:24:14
Yale MFA era, and like, what Gregory Crutzen was doing with
1:24:19
these movie size budgets for still photos, just as art, not
1:24:22
as commerce, was to me, it was completely mind blowing, like I,
1:24:27
I really, I really loved the the cinematic, the cinematic
1:24:35
techniques that make something so different than what you can
1:24:43
usually create with a normal photography budget like that.
1:24:46
That was really fun for me to look at and to try to recreate
1:24:50
with my meager, meager resources. But I you know, that
1:24:54
was definitely a huge inspiration for me when I was
1:24:56
making art. Yeah, and sometimes
1:24:59
Casey Fatchett: the limited. Being limited by, you know, your
1:25:02
resources or gear or whatever it makes you, actually forces you
1:25:06
to be more creative. No thanks. You're like, this is why I buy
1:25:11
everything. This is why so I buy all good. All right. So last
1:25:16
question, if you could give one piece of advice or perspective
1:25:19
to photographers who are sort of, like, feeling kind of
1:25:23
overwhelmed by, like, all the change, like, like, the vastness
1:25:29
of change that is going on in our industry. What would it be?
1:25:34
Inbal Sivan: I mean, I'm overwhelmed. Who's got advice
1:25:37
for me? Like I said, I've really separated myself from that world
1:25:41
by choice. And I I still, you know, I still make, make what I
1:25:45
make based on, you know, my original thoughts and ideas. And
1:25:49
I still don't immerse myself in the social media and in the
1:25:53
media landscape that that the you know that we're in and that
1:25:57
we're kind of forced into, because, I mean, they have to,
1:26:01
but I don't have to, but I will say that what I do, if like, for
1:26:05
for people like me who are just like, it's not about like that
1:26:09
these things are bad or that I don't want to do them. It's just
1:26:14
that they're so labor intensive, you have to commit so much to
1:26:18
get any sort of return on investment. And I know that I
1:26:21
will never do enough to actually get a return on investment.
1:26:25
Like, I'll post a picture on Instagram, you know, once a
1:26:29
week, or once a month or whatever, but that's not going
1:26:33
to, that's not going to get me anything. I'd have to commit to,
1:26:37
you know, 10 hours of work a week on marketing, and I'm just,
1:26:41
I don't want to do that, and I'll take, I'll make less money,
1:26:45
and not do that. I just don't want to. But you're
1:26:48
Casey Fatchett: also working less you're also spending less
1:26:51
time. Is what I mean,
1:26:52
Inbal Sivan: spending less time, which is, you know, important to
1:26:54
me. I have a, you know, I have kids, and I value my freedom,
1:26:58
and so, yeah, but I do think that what I do, and I do it as a
1:27:07
matter of course, is, I guess you would call it networking,
1:27:11
but like, I enjoy meeting people and getting to know them, and I
1:27:16
make friends wherever I Go, and I don't see it as a chore to,
1:27:23
like, meet other wedding vendors and explain to them who I am and
1:27:27
learn who they are and see how we can help each other. Like,
1:27:29
that's just totally natural, just social circle stuff to me,
1:27:33
but it served me really well. And there are a lot of people in
1:27:36
this industry, both here in Austin and New York, that really
1:27:39
trust me. And you know, we'll send referrals my way, but also
1:27:43
just, you know, as a, as a, as a talented, trustworthy
1:27:49
photographer, you know, in people's minds. It may not be
1:27:55
you know, hundreds of people looking at an ad, but it's a
1:27:59
small number of people who know me, trust me and see me as a
1:28:04
viable option for their clients.
1:28:06
Casey Fatchett: I think that you brought up two really good
1:28:09
things in there. One is the when you're networking, a what can we
1:28:14
do for each other? And I think that is something that a lot of
1:28:17
people don't think about when they're trying to network. And
1:28:23
one thing I've always told people and something that I was
1:28:27
advice I would go and give myself earlier on in my career
1:28:31
would be to network more, but network more intentionally,
1:28:36
specifically, finding the like venues that really fit the style
1:28:42
that I like, not just everybody. Don't. I'm not gonna send an
1:28:45
email to I'm gonna take write down 100 different wedding
1:28:49
venues or whatever, and I'm going to email each and every
1:28:51
one of them, and I'm going to send them all the same message.
1:28:54
I'm going to pick five, and I'm going to start there, and I'm
1:28:58
going to develop a relationship, try to develop a relationship
1:29:01
with those five that, you know, turns into something, and I've
1:29:03
done that like over my career is, you know, there are places
1:29:06
that recommend me because, you know, I never, had never worked
1:29:10
there before, but I found ways that we could work together in
1:29:15
some way, like, how can I help you? How can how?
1:29:18
Inbal Sivan: You know, planners, wedding planners, are kind of at
1:29:20
the top of the food chain, at our level. And, you know, I'll
1:29:25
meet a wedding planner and be like, do you need photos? Do you
1:29:27
need photos for your website? Do you want to do a style shoot?
1:29:29
Like, do you, is there anything I can do for you? Absolutely,
1:29:32
and I do it happily
1:29:34
Casey Fatchett: and and find but, you know, finding those
1:29:37
things like, what can I do? Oh, wedding planners. Can I what do
1:29:40
you have staff? Can we talk about photography and different
1:29:43
styles of photography so your staff knows about different
1:29:46
styles photography? Like, we can just do a quick zoom meeting
1:29:49
and, like, have, like, a little educational talk about, like,
1:29:53
how so your people can have a better like vocabulary as far as
1:29:57
photography and so they under. Understand, you know, also,
1:30:01
like, understand, like, what the logistics of different things
1:30:05
are going to be. Some way I can help you. But also, I think the
1:30:09
even bigger thing that you brought up was trustworthiness.
1:30:12
They know that they can trust you. And I think this applies to
1:30:15
every form of photography out there, and why you get referrals
1:30:21
for me, and like the corporate work that I do, the referrals I
1:30:25
get are because people know that a I'm going to show up on time,
1:30:29
I'm going to get quality images, I'm going to deliver them on the
1:30:34
timeline, and that that they know that's going to happen,
1:30:37
like every time that type of photography is less about
1:30:42
creativity and people knowing that you can deliver
1:30:46
Inbal Sivan: like this is trustworthiness. Goes beyond Can
1:30:50
you deliver, right? And all the way to, are your clients going
1:30:54
to have a good time with you? Yeah, absolutely. And this
1:31:00
person, can, you know, this planner, can they send me their
1:31:03
clients and trust that the client is going to have a good
1:31:06
experience, that I'll be, you know, properly attired, that
1:31:09
I'll be, you know, enough of a hype man that I'll keep things
1:31:13
on schedule in a in a, you know, very friendly way that I don't
1:31:18
get, you know, easily frustrated and or outwardly frustrated,
1:31:25
like all of these things are a part of it. And people in the
1:31:28
wedding industry are, you know, are everybody's protective of
1:31:31
their client and their recommendations, right?
1:31:33
Casey Fatchett: You're putting your name on it. Whenever I
1:31:35
recommend somebody, I just give referrals for, you know,
1:31:39
planners, DJs, bands, everything. The only people I'm
1:31:44
recommending are people that I know are gonna live up to that
1:31:49
live up to my name, because if I'm putting my recommendation on
1:31:52
it, but yeah, the you have to establish that trust somehow
1:31:58
before you can expect this. The thing that I have, is to people
1:32:03
like, Oh, you gotta, you gotta network. And, you know, get in
1:32:06
with the like, find a way to fit. Venue planner, whoever,
1:32:14
event managers at corporate businesses, media person that
1:32:20
business, who's in charge of hiring people for headshots,
1:32:22
whatever? You have to find a way to endear yourself, but like, so
1:32:26
that they will trust you. And people were like, well, how do I
1:32:29
do that? Like, well, you have to figure it, like, what it's going
1:32:32
to be. You have to, that is the thing. You have to work at.
1:32:34
That's why I suggest focusing your efforts, as opposed to just
1:32:39
sending out an email to a billion people that says the
1:32:42
same thing. Because that just makes people feel like, Oh, I'm
1:32:46
on a list.
1:32:47
Inbal Sivan: Yeah. Well, I'm very lucky that here in Austin.
1:32:51
I don't know how much you know about the wedding community and
1:32:53
you're New Jersey, yeah, I've
1:32:54
Casey Fatchett: been in the New York market for
1:32:57
Inbal Sivan: I worked in New York for, you know, you know,
1:32:59
most of my career. I only moved to Austin a few years ago. And
1:33:03
what I found here is that the community, the wedding
1:33:07
community, is incredibly close knit and supportive. And like
1:33:11
the photographers here, we have a monthly meetup where we just
1:33:15
go to a trivia night, or, you know, have a gift with elephant
1:33:18
gift exchange, or, like, you know, whatever, we're all
1:33:22
hanging out with each other. And the the plan, like the wedding
1:33:26
vendors in this town will will make galas just for fun, because
1:33:30
we are party people and we're all, we can all contribute our
1:33:34
services. And, I mean, in January, I went to three block
1:33:37
tie parties just for wedding vendors.
1:33:41
Casey Fatchett: That would be wonderful.
1:33:42
Inbal Sivan: Yeah, it's great. So we all kind of know each
1:33:44
other. And the, you know, the people who stand out are the
1:33:50
people who can really kind of be a part of that scene in a very,
1:33:56
you know, in a natural way, and kind of let the I let the work
1:34:00
speak for itself, but, but I, I, I make sure people know that.
1:34:04
Like, I'm nice, I don't have bad Bo I, you know, I'm, it's okay,
1:34:09
it's I'm okay to be around. I am dedicated. I'm passionate. Like,
1:34:14
these are things you can show people without actually doing a
1:34:17
job with them. And you know, once you do a job with them at
1:34:21
smooth sailing. And I know planners here have recommended
1:34:23
me to each other. Yeah, it all snowballs.
1:34:28
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, it's, it's the Yeah, because people talk in
1:34:32
every industry, this is like, listen, it's not just weddings,
1:34:36
like the corporate stuff. All these people who like plan
1:34:39
events for like, whether it's in house or they're like a
1:34:42
corporate event planner, like who's outside, or if it's the
1:34:45
media, people on like, different teams and different companies,
1:34:49
they all talk to each other, and there are emails sent around
1:34:54
where somebody will say, hey, we need a photographer for XYZ. Can
1:35:00
you recommend anybody? Because none of my people are available,
1:35:05
and you want to be the like you said, people know you as a
1:35:08
person they want to work with, and they will say, and even if
1:35:14
they haven't worked with you, if they've had good experiences in
1:35:19
their interactions with you are more likely to say, like, hey.
1:35:23
You know, I've never personally worked with this person, but
1:35:29
their portfolio looks good. I've always had good interactions
1:35:32
with them. Maybe see if they're available. It's always worked
1:35:36
for me. I think it's the the the secret, I don't know, whatever
1:35:44
they get that people
1:35:45
Inbal Sivan: don't really gossiped to by wedding vendors.
1:35:48
Yeah, like, I've heard about other people. Like, like, people
1:35:51
talk about other people and saying, oh, this person, you
1:35:53
know, did this on the job, and I really didn't like that. Or, you
1:35:57
know, yeah,
1:35:58
Casey Fatchett: it's the thing that I tell people, and I tell
1:36:02
my associates and second shooters, usually when we first
1:36:06
started, like, this is the small industry. People will know when
1:36:10
you do things that are like, I had a second shooter who decided
1:36:18
to like, I had worked them a couple of times, but like, they
1:36:21
felt like things were going well. It was like, the third or
1:36:24
maybe fourth wedding that we worked on, like, got drunk, oh
1:36:29
my gosh. Like, started drinking. And I was like, in a couple of
1:36:32
times, I was just like, hey, are you drinking? He's like, Oh, I
1:36:34
only had one. And then I started there's like, it was like
1:36:38
increasing, and I'm like, hey, maybe you have a drinking
1:36:41
problem. B, you're working right now. This is not like, and I had
1:36:46
to, like, excuse them and call a cab for them and like, say,
1:36:49
like, Hey, you gotta get out of here. Like, you can't be around,
1:36:52
you can't get to be around my clients. Like you're starting to
1:36:56
get, like, noticeably intoxicated. But like that, you
1:37:00
know, word gets around. Because I had somebody asked me about
1:37:06
this person, like, oh, they said they had worked with you. And I
1:37:09
was like, they actually used me as a reference. I'm shocked. But
1:37:15
I and again, I had another person who worked for me as a
1:37:18
subcontractor who completely screwed up a job after the job
1:37:21
happened, and I had to give like, a refund on their portion
1:37:24
of the event, because they just lost everything, and then acted
1:37:32
like it's no big deal.
1:37:35
Inbal Sivan: Like, yeah, I have a specific allergy to a lack of
1:37:38
personal accountability, yeah. And that's
1:37:41
Casey Fatchett: the thing is, that was, yeah, exactly. That
1:37:44
was the thing that, like, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna make it my
1:37:46
business now to, like, tell everybody not to work with you,
1:37:48
because you're saying that you cost me money part of my
1:37:54
reputation. Luckily, it did not affect my reputation, because I
1:37:58
handled it properly with and professionally with my client.
1:38:01
But like, the fact that you were just like, oh, well, this
1:38:05
happens, and that that is a big Yeah, like your reputation
1:38:12
matters, and, and I think this is kind of, we're kind of went
1:38:16
off the rails there for a second, but like, your
1:38:19
reputation matters and how you interact with people is what
1:38:23
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1:41:00
Hey now for my favorite part of the show, what's that? Say?
1:41:07
Useless information. This is always death. It is time for our
1:41:14
useless information for this episode evolve, true or false,
1:41:21
the dog that played toto in The Wizard of Oz was paid a salary.
1:41:28
Inbal Sivan: Honestly, true.
1:41:29
Casey Fatchett: It is true. The dog made $125 a week, which was
1:41:34
more than the majority of the actors in the film
1:41:39
Inbal Sivan: Wow,
1:41:41
Casey Fatchett: highly paid. But, you know, Toto had a pretty
1:41:44
big part. Yeah, be well trained, yeah.
1:41:47
Inbal Sivan: And speaking of experimentation, was a dog like
1:41:53
the Wizard of Oz and the, I mean, what that movie did to
1:41:56
audiences when it went from black and white to tech, oh,
1:41:59
yeah, geez. And they'd never seen it before like that. You
1:42:03
know, a huge moment in Visual History.
1:42:06
Casey Fatchett: Yeah, I mean, I still remember how I reacted to
1:42:09
that the first time I saw it, because I just remember, like, I
1:42:15
like, not having just thinking, like, oh, this movie's gonna be
1:42:18
in black and white, right? And then all of a sudden, it's a
1:42:23
color, and you're like, what, what's going on? And like, have,
1:42:28
how that can affect an audience, or the people like viewing your
1:42:33
work? Yes, the amazing it feels. It feels almost, I don't know,
1:42:43
not cliche, but like it just feels like it doesn't have that
1:42:46
same feel. Now you're like, oh, okay, because you, if
1:42:48
Inbal Sivan: for every vanguard of everything, yeah, anybody who
1:42:52
was the first to do something is going to be eventually a cliche.
1:42:56
But it's not, it's they invented it. Yeah, exactly.
1:42:59
Casey Fatchett: And Well, thank you so much for coming on the
1:43:02
show. Where can people find you?
1:43:04
Inbal Sivan: Where can people find me? Just on my website, my
1:43:07
full name.com, in inbalsivan.com, I will include
1:43:10
that link in the I have an Instagram that I post on every
1:43:14
five months or so. That's inbalsivanphoto.
1:43:17
Casey Fatchett: I will include links to those in the Episode
1:43:19
Notes so people can find them again. It was a pleasure talking
1:43:21
to you. Thank you so much for coming on.
1:43:23
Unknown: It's been a blast. Thank you,
1:43:24
Casey Fatchett: Casey. You're very welcome,
1:43:37
and we're back. I hope you enjoyed my talk with inval
1:43:40
Sivan. Be sure to check the Episode notes for her links and
1:43:43
to follow along with her. You should also be following along
1:43:46
with the nerdy photographer on the socials, and be sure to
1:43:49
catch our live streams on YouTube and Instagram that
1:43:51
include Q A sessions, interviews, portfolio reviews
1:43:55
and just good old photography community fun, connect with
1:43:58
other photographers, talk about photography. That's what it's
1:44:01
all about, folks, is that the last one only place it in the
1:44:10
holder so the light can shine through them, stunning until
1:44:15
next time, everybody stay safe and stay nerdy. You
1:44:29
Unknown: who's your heart been beating about you better. Get
1:44:35
better. Get better. Get better. Listen, you.