Latest / GAIN Momentum / We Are Selling Outcomes Not Technology | with Bryson Koehler
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- GAIN Momentum episode #52- We Are Selling Outcomes Not Technology | with Bryson Koehler === Adam Mogelonsky: Welcome to the GAIN Momentum podcast, focusing on timeless lessons from senior leaders in hospitality, travel, food service, and technology. I'm joined by my co host here, Michael Cohen. And our special guest today is Bryson Kaler, CEO of Revinate. Bryson, how are you? Bryson Koehler: I am great. It is great to be here. Thanks for having me. Adam Mogelonsky: Awesome. Well, great to have you on. We structure this podcast around four key questions that we ask all guests focus on business growth. So Bryson, our first question, when it comes to scaling a business, what is the single piece of advice you would give to entrepreneurs from your perspective as a professional in hotel technology? Bryson Koehler: Focus. Ruthless, ruthless prioritization. Um, focus wins. Um, there are a lot of really great ideas. There's more, you know, shiny objects and things to chase. and especially in hospitality where you've just got so many technologies, uh, that are not interconnected, kind of half done things all over the place. You, you just see opportunity all over. But the reason we got into an environment where there's so many half done things is we haven't been great at staying disciplined and focused on our prioritization. And you know, I would say, you know, all gains are incremental, um, and, and some increments aren't gains. So really be really clear with yourself and your team and your customers and understanding your market around truly what increments will result in gains. Stay focused on those. And park all of the other good ideas that you have for a later date. Michael Cohen: Interesting Bryson, why do you think our industry, the travel, hospitality, mice, innovation industry has that, uh, hangover effect maybe in regards to almost execution and chasing opportunistic scenarios? Without focus, because I obviously we agree and I've been guilty of that in the past as a CEO and leader of organizations as well as a mea culpa. I'm just curious, why do you think that's the case in travel and hospitality, innovation, technology? Bryson Koehler: Yeah, it's a great question, you know, and having spent a long time in and around this space, you know, I joined IHG over 25 years ago, um, back in the day. And so having seen this, for a long time, I think it's a great question. I, I think number one, it starts with the fact that, you know, asset owners and, and management teams They didn't get into hospitality because they love technology. Um, I doubt there's a lot of general managers that wake up and go, you know what, I love data and you know, I want to, you know, I can't wait to get to the office today and, you know, segment my guests into unique profiles so that, you know, and target like, that's just not, you get into hospitality because you love people. You love the vibe, you love entertaining and being hospitable. You love the energy that comes from running your plant, your facility, your hotel. It just, you just love that. And you know, I think what happens is you get very focused on how do you serve and how do you improve and, you know, ideas and, and technologies come in. And they're, they're point solutions and they all sound good. and they solve individual point problems. You have the next thing, you know, you have 60 point solutions at your property. none of them connect to each other. Your data is all over the place. Um, that creates fragmentation. And so you end up then with a lot of technologies that can never scale. You know, they get to a couple hundred hotels and then they kind of peter out in terms of growth. And so our industry ends up with. Just this, you know, great sea of, know, kind of popsicle stands that are, are really great popsicles, but, you know, don't have real distribution at scale. And so we just end up with this very fragmented environment. And, you know, so we've got the kind of big old stalwart players that, you know, built the industry. Back with very innovative technology in the fifties and sixties, but have really struggled to innovate and transform themselves. And that's hard, right? It's hard when you, you know, have a big flying jumbo jet to change it in midair. And then you've got, you know, on the other spectrum, you've got the smaller kind of, you know, point solutions that I've done really unique things. Don't get me wrong. They're great, but they don't scale. And then, you know, there's only a few companies that, you know, I think get to a place where you've got, you know, over 10,000 hotels or whatever your, your scale metric is that really then are built on modern technologies that are modern tech stacks and have scale. And so it's, it is a unique, it's always been fascinating to me how, what I would say is how underserved. The hospitality industry has been by technology and, uh, you know, it's just, it's, it's part of the reason why I was so excited to join Revinate was like, what an opportunity to actually take a company with modern tech capabilities and with 12,500 hotels scale. Um, and, and let's really work towards helping solve some of these problems and, you know, bringing this data challenge that these point solutions have created for us. But, you know, it really goes back to, you know, why do people get into hospitality? And it's not because they're lovers of technology, which is great because we want them to be hospitable, great people, running great hotels, and that's what they do. Adam Mogelonsky: So when we look at the intersection between focus, where you want to focus your company in terms of new product and new innovation and data, which is again, something we have to solve for in terms of bringing it all together. What areas should hotels or hotel technology companies look at to focus on for bridging that data together? What, what pieces of technology are you seeing that work today? Bryson Koehler: Well, you know, what's interesting is, if you go back in time in technology, you know, we, we had this push for so long that we were going to bring all of our datasets, you know, together. and you know, that's, that's really not happened. Um, you know, no matter how hard we've tried to create the ultimate data warehouse, uh, you end up with just more and more proliferations of data silos scattered all over the place. and you know, the good news is, is as horizontal technology has evolved, we don't need to be in that vertical stack, uh, for things to work well that we, we needed to do that when we had kind of legacy relational database technologies, we had limitations on network design and network characteristics, you know, there, there were all these limitations that, that existed. You know, those limitations are gone. We, we don't really have network limitations today. I mean, latency is still latency. We have not solved the speed of light problem. But we've solved so many other problems and, you know, now, you know, you can really use, you know, knowledge graph approaches and graph technology to really allow you to create a single view of your data. Without actually having to go and do all of the work of making sure all of that data is always pulled together as a system of record in one place. And so getting your data pipeline sorted out, so that you can have access to all of your data sources where they are, meet your data where that, where your data is. We always say meet your guests where they are. Well, meet your data where your data is. You're not going to solve it by, you know, forcing it all into one place. So, and again, you know, part of that is. That's what we do with Revinate, but, you know, there are technologies around data pipelines. Michael Cohen: Right. Bryson Koehler: And that data pipeline is a living, breathing part of your enterprise as you go forward. I mean, it, it has a heart, it has a soul, it is changing. You've got to tune it, you've got to educate it, you have to tweak it, you have to make it better and smarter. I mean, you have to raise it. it is a part of your team and that data pipeline then connects to your data sources. It enables you to create. You know, entity resolution, you know, rich guest profiles, really be able to take and understand who is that person? What are all of the things we know about that person? What is that device? What are all of those things we know about that device? and that interrelationship between the data assets. And, you know, that whether it's a carbon based life form or a silicon based life form, like you're, you're connecting the dots and those dots, again, are going to be scattered about. And I think, you know, to me, it's like, that's fine. Like let's accept that that's the way it is. And let's focus on bringing in the data Uh, into, you know, what we call a CDP, a customer data platform, and making sure that your ability to create the right entity keys, establish the right relationships of data, constantly improving, constantly learning, merging, de duping, doing all of the data cleansing, all of the things that happen in a data pipeline. That, to me, is kind of step one for almost any problem. If you have a marketing problem, if you have a security problem, a fraud problem, if you have a cost problem, you know, if you have a, you know, repeat guest, you know, challenge, if you have a loyalty challenge, whatever your challenge is. I would argue that almost all roads start with, do you have all of your data that you can have access to? And that data can be kind of zero party, first party, second party, third party. You know, public data, private data, licensed data, however you want to look at it. But all of that data coming together and into a common guest profile that is constantly, that sets you free. And that gives you the ability to then take real time action on it. That, that ensures that that data is not just sitting there collecting digital dust. And, you know, it's great that we have a data warehouse and what are we doing with it? You know, somebody asked me the other day, Bryson, what's the difference between a CRM and a CDP? And, and, and my best answer was. To me, a CRM is a noun and a CDP is a verb, right? We're trying to turn data into a verb, an action, an outcome. How do we make sure that all of this work is actually driving outcomes for your property? Michael Cohen: Interesting, as a bit of a follow up, we do a lot of work with, uh, and we have one particular client called Blend, who is an emerging, uh, business BI company, uh, what we would call a hospitality company. Bi company or hospitality eye company, um, out of Europe, they're coming to America. And you know, it's been quite, I mean, we're, we're fairly experienced. We have some smarts, but it's always interesting to, you know, learn new things and see different types of ways, data, both front of the house, back of the house, corporate data, you know, business analytics. And when organizations, like I've seen in the recent last few four or five months, I've seen corporate brand executives, I could see their eyes widening and I can see the smoke coming out of their ears when they're starting to look at dashboards or they're looking at really well, what's the right word, orchestrated data maybe, that they can actually start making real decisions. And that's a little bit different than the CDP side, but it's all about decisions, it's all about, it's all about, you know, optimization, it's about messaging engagement, but you know, a lot of hotels don't know what they have, they don't even know what they have deployed. Bryson Koehler: it's so true. And, you know, those types of modern BI tools are great because, you know, look again, back to focus, you know, I, I don't spend any time thinking about how we capture data on housekeeping activities to optimize housekeeping. Um, that's not what we do. Um, but that data could be interesting in a CDP to understand guest behavior. Um, But, you know, those warehouses that are focused on helping management teams make better operational decisions are great sources of data. and we work very hard to make sure, you know, we work in a two way relationship because You know, we don't want to become another stovepipe of data. We want to, you know, all of the work we do to connect to a property management system, or a point of sale system, or a restaurant reservation system, or golf, or spa, or, you know, whatever. Like, we, we do all of that work. we synthesize that data. It's why we've got APIs. So if you want to connect that and put that into your BI tool and then mash that up with other data sets that aren't related to things we're focused on, like, we're all for that. And we want to make that easy because, you know, again, you're, it's an exploration phase of, so where is all of my data? And what am I capturing on my Wi Fi portal? And You know, what, what were my privacy policies on that wifi portal? And, you know, how does that relate to, you know, my, you know, a point of sale system in the coffee shop versus my point of sale system in the gift shop versus whatever else. And these are all just, you know, it's come, it's complex and, you know, companies that come in and focus on hospitality. And know how to speak hospitality, you know, know, how to, you know, really think about, um, you know, the right connectors, the right words, and the more that the companies that are really focused in our space, um, spend time evolving their capabilities, the easier it will become for, you know, asset owners and management teams to get control over. You know, a landscape that frankly has gotten a little scattered in, in the past, you know, 10, 15 years. Adam Mogelonsky: Bryson, we're going to move into our second question and, uh, edging on the point you said there about scattered. I love that word. It's a great lead in here. Bryson, what are some of the common pitfalls or failures you have witnessed that business owners should look to avoid when scaling their business? Bryson Koehler: Yeah, I think that, you know, back to, um, you know, the, the prioritization, you know, unlimited money does not create unlimited throughput, right? And so, none of us are blessed with unlimited money, but there is this kind of fallacy sometimes, I think, especially in very technology driven organizations, that if I can just If I just had more money and I had more people, I could do more. and there's a limit to that. There's a limit to the throughput that, you know, any company, even with unlimited money can, you know, can do. I mean, pick Google. We could probably, or pick Apple. Apple, for all intents and purposes has unlimited money. Um, but there's a limit to how fast they can evolve. There's a limit to the number of problems they can solve. There's a limit to the amount of new products that they could release to the market. There's just a limit. and so you, you've got to really be purposeful and thoughtful and focused around, you know, what are you trying to solve? How are you going to try to solve it? And, and don't overcommit to solving so many things that, you know, you then think that you can just throw more money or bodies at a problem that, you know, really at the end of the day, you just then miss that expectations and then you disappoint. You know, one of the things that I see so often right now. Uh, both in our space and in many others, it is just the frustration that, uh, users and buyers of technologies have against mis roadmaps and mis deliverables and, you know, somebody came in and it was a pitch on something. and look, there's a time and place for an Art of the Possible conversation always. Somebody should always know, Bryson, where's Revinate going? What is your North Star? Where do you want to be three to five years from now? And I know that very clearly. I know exactly where we're going and I know exactly what we want to do, but that's different than let's have a roadmap conversation of, so what are you doing for me in 2025? Because Customers are not buying, in a SaaS world, they're not buying the product that exists today. They're placing a bet on that business of where they're going to evolve that product over the years to come. You know, we're in a constant, iterative, evolutionary period where SaaS now, you, you get those upgrades, you don't have to go through forklifts, it's not something that your technology team has to go and install every time there's an upgrade, it just occurs. And that's great, but we, you know, have to make sure that we stay ruthlessly disciplined on hitting our commitments against those roadmaps, because that's the bet that our customers are placing. They're placing a bet that we're going to deliver. And where I see people falling down is not recognizing there's a difference between kind of, The art of the possible conversation about where the puck's headed in the future. And what are you going to do for me over the, you know, horizon zero, horizon one, kind of planning roadmap period. You got to stay focused on that. Don't, don't drift off and start missing those commitments. because that, that loses trust. It loses confidence and it's the fastest way I see people kind of begin to, you know, erode their brand value. Michael Cohen: It also drives churn, because frustration, um, you know, the era of, I have a chicken in every pot, so to change, in some respects, to change vendors of whatever technical, uh, category, I have embedded in my 300 hotels, or 50 hotels, or 10 hotels, or one major complex hotel. you know, there's a reason why that commercial side of SaaS There's a huge focus on minimizing churn because it can happen and it can happen based on frustration where the overlay of innovation or the promise of overlay of innovation becomes the sandpaper of innovation for their, for a client organization versus smooth as glass, it becomes sandpaper. And that's, I heard that another, that's another analogy I heard recently, I thought, oh, that's interesting. You know, it's supposed to optimize, not create. More challenges and as we know for the last hundred years and more so probably technology can contribute both ways Bryson Koehler: I couldn't agree more. And I mean, we could go through and look at lots of, you know, technologies that, you know, started off trying to solve an HR problem. And, you know, next thing you know, they're, they're solving a finance problem and then they're solving, you know, and it's like, wait a minute, you haven't even actually solved the HR problem yet. Like, let's not, you know, drift off course until we have really accomplished the mission we're on. Which is why, you know, I think that North Star, you know, Revinate is so important, you know, Revinate is here to help hoteliers solve their direct distribution challenges. We are a direct distribution platform. We are here to convert bookings direct, your lowest cost, highest profit channels. And there's a whole set of reasons as to why I think that's so important for the industry, but that's our focus. And so we're going to stay maniacally focused. On that, are there many other problems in the hospitality tech stack? There are, but we're going to stay focused on solving the direct distribution one. and we're going to get really good at that and we're going to be really, really good at delivering against our commitments around that and not allow ourselves to get distracted by the, you know, million shiny objects around us that are all interesting, and important. Um, but it, it is hard to have discipline. You know, and keep everybody focused. Cause look, we all, we hire great people. We have great teams. people, you know, great people are usually innovative. They're entrepreneurial. They're self starters. They, they just love solving new problems, and keeping a team focused. On kind of the same core set of problems year after year after year, whilst also continuing to have great esprit de corps, great morale and great culture and excitement. Um, you know, that's, that's the real art, I think, of leadership today. Uh, and we need leaders to stay focused on those things with their teams, continuing to build excitement on the Constant incremental improvement of their core mission. And that's it. That's a special art versus, you know, drifting off and adding 47 new things that make us feel excited in the moment, but there's no way we can be great at everything for great at everything. We're great at nothing. Adam Mogelonsky: You know, we've seen this a lot before, this idea of maniacal focus, as you said, and I really like it. But within your answers so far, you've mentioned a lot of very specific technology terms beyond just CDP, CRM, the whole difference between zero party, first party, third party data, license data. It's a lot. And within that, I'm wondering, as a technology company, What would you advise to avoid mistakes related to customer education as you are proceeding and installing new features as a, as a SaaS based company? Bryson Koehler: So I get very excited about this. I'm very passionate about our industry and what we're solving. So I could talk about these things all day long. And, you know, just the conversation on zero party data, we could probably have a whole podcast on. Look, I think number one, um, you know, my advice is be out there. Um, one of the things I love most is talking to asset owners, management teams, people on the ground. I strive to make sure every day I talk to one or two people that are out in the field. Owning or operating a hotel. Listening. What are they up to? What are their challenges? I love being out there. I love going and visiting them. I always make the offer, you know, if you own or operate a hotel, send me an invitation. I will show up. I'd love to hear, you know, what's going on. What are your challenges? Because lots of things get lost in translation. you know, people get very focused on, well, I want to go solve this problem. And then you actually talk, you know, to an asset owner or a management team. And what are you focused on? And it's, they're not focused on that at all. You know, that problem isn't even in their top 10. we always need to stay grounded. And what's really, you know, on the minds of the people that are putting money on the line to, you know, build and own a property and, you know, putting their careers on the lines to manage and run and operate it. And, you know, their needs, you've got to stay very close to. And the only way to do that is to be out there with them, uh, be in the trenches, listen, and really take time to understand. You have to really take time to understand. And it does vary. by time of year, you know, we're in budgeting, uh, cycle right now, uh, by and large across the, across the, uh, industry, we're in budgeting cycle and, you know, that's a different mindset. and that's a different way that we need to be showing up to help than when we're in, you know, January and we're in kickoff mode and new project mode and lots of groups and other things that are happening. You know, there's cycles that occur. And then there's going to be variants by region and there's going to be various whether you're an independent or branded property and all of these uniquenesses, they really matter. and so I think it's important that, you know, everybody stays close and listens. and it doesn't mean that when you go hear some new problem, you should rush back to the office and like change your focus. It's to make sure that the focus that you have and the mission that you're on is still grounded with the right priorities against what you're hearing when you're out on the street. Michael Cohen: Interesting, because I'm going to say this with love and respect, you're a data geek. Bryson Koehler: I Michael Cohen: A smart one, a successful one, but you are. Oh, yeah, I mean, you know, I, I, all that. Um, but it's very clear, like always, business is about people. Uh, clients are obviously, you know, about interaction, about communication, about wants, needs, dreams, visions, etc. But what you just articulated beautifully from a leadership position, which is equally important, is, You know, if you say personalized data, what I mean is personalized data, like making it actually about people and, and it's hard to do. Many CEOs, for whatever reason, they're not comfortable or they don't make it a priority. I'm not just trying to say you're spectacular. I'm saying, I think that's important that you called it apt. Um, you know, because when, The majority of decision making, both in the client side and in the vendor side, in regards to the data world, in whatever industry, horizontal, vertical, people get myopically focused or, you know, maniacally focused on things. And what they don't sometimes do is actually have dialogue and have real conversations. You know, on the street, in, uh, as they say in French, en cité, in the situation. Right, and uh, it's really good to hear Bryson because that's really I think a key, even learning lesson from this podcast for certain, um, not just CEOs, anyone in this industry, we all touch data, we're all involved in data in some way, shape, or form, may not be our core. Uh, you know, responsibility, but it's absolutely part of our overall, engagement with the industry, but making it personalized data as best we can. Hard to do, easy to say, but it's, it's important to do. Bryson Koehler: But Michael, you've raised a really great point, which is that's really about an outcome, not a technology. And, you know, again, why does sometimes, does our industry struggle is we don't need to be going in and selling technologies. We need to be selling outcomes, right? What is the outcome we're trying to achieve? I'm trying to achieve an improvement of direct bookings, right? I want to shift 15 percent of your expensive third party bookings to your better cost channels direct, right? That's my outcome that we deliver. Do we have a lot of technology under the covers that does that? Absolutely. But I'm not selling you technology. now, if you're interested in talking about technology, I'll talk all day long, but really I want to talk to you about the outcome and your point on personalized data. That, you know, you're not bringing all of your data together and personalizing it just because there's some cool technology that says, Hey, we build segments and we can, you know, personalize your website or your marketing or your campaign. Like what's the outcome that we're trying to drive? And how do we make sure that we're, you know, reaching out to guests and talking to them in a personalized way? We're doing that because we're in the hospitality industry. We want to be hospitable. We want to show up knowing who Michael is, knowing Michael's preferences, knowing Not because, you know, some brand book says that we should do it, but because that's how, that's what it means to be hospitable. And I just think you bring up such a great point because so many times we show up and what does our glossy say? Our glossy is about our speeds and our feeds and our technologies and our, you know, all of this cool stuff. And sure, we can talk about AI and ML and large language models and we, sure. but Let's show up actually with the outcomes that we provide and why that's important to you whether you're an asset owner or management team or, you know, on the ground, whatever. Why is it important to you? Adam Mogelonsky: well, talking about outcomes, I think that's a good segue into our third question, which is, Bryson, what do you see as the key opportunities and challenges for hotel technology companies in 2025 and beyond? Bryson Koehler: Look, I think, you know, we need to recognize that owners and management teams have a lot of headwinds, right? The cost of capital is up. The cost of labor is up. The cost of energy, insurance, food, beverage, all costs are up. You know, rate kind of flat to down. Occupancy flat to down. Guest satisfaction since 2019, basically down. You know, so like there's a lot of headwinds that asset owners and management teams are facing today. We don't need to be showing up with more headaches and problems. The last thing that these teams need is more point solutions. We need to be figuring out as an industry how we band together, and maybe that means more consolidation, but we need to be banding together to show up with more complete, outcome driven suites of capability. that solve problems for them and not just push more problems to them, you know, building a, you know, revenue management dashboard, we'll pick on that topic, right? And just kind of building a dashboard and showing it to a revenue manager, didn't that just kind of push the problem to them? I go back to my days in the weather business, you know, I always joked with the team, I'm like, what does a 30 percent chance of rain mean? Like, I think that basically means we don't really know, and so we're just going to push the problem to the consumer and make them figure it out. Like, getting to the binary, what we called umbrella forecast. Do I need an umbrella today? Yes, no. Zero, one. Yes, no. And that was really hard. but we built it and, uh, you can ask, you know, various assistants today, like, do I need an umbrella today? And we'll give you an answer. Yes, no. that's powerful, uh, hard, but powerful. And so, we as an industry, I think, need to continue to find ways to make sure that we're solving. More complete end-to-end solutions in more automated ways. How do we help you automate filling your hotel through direct channels, getting the right guest to the right hotel, the right rate, the right room through the right channel. Could be voice, could be web, could be through messaging, whatever, but you know, finding that right channel. How do we automate that? How do we make that easier? How do we make that more complete? We don't want to just be one more, you know, point solution. We, we need to make sure that we're solving an end to end outcome. And so I think the trick for the hospitality technology industry is to think about how do all of the piece parts of what we have, how would they work better if we partnered better? If we, you know, you know, brought those outcomes together. Instead of just showing up with a kind of Home Depot of aisles of capabilities and saying, you guys figure out how to piece it all together, or then you got to hire, you know, expensive consultants to come in and they have to piece it all together Michael Cohen: Hey, watch out. Watch out. That's our business. Be careful. I'm joking. We're advisors, not consultants. I'm Bryson Koehler: exactly, but you're advising them. Hopefully you're not advising them to go to Home Depot and drive down every aisle and Michael Cohen: No, a hundred percent, Bryson. I mean, I had to bring it up because people who watch this know that it's a pet peeve of mine. Consultants are advisors, but you nailed it too. It's, it's, Here's the other thing, if I can relate it to this dialogue, this really great dialogue today. Outside in, everyone says, people on the outside, Oh, hospitality, it's like the last industry to innovate. They're always seven years behind, and there's some truth to that, we all know that. Conservative, uh, orient, a conservative industry, an industry that is, has a perpetual stress level because it is. People facing, guest facing, passenger, patron facing, you know, staffing challenges. But what are your thoughts? I'm sorry, Adam, I'm kind of taking the question and if it's a, hopefully it's an applicable add on. You know, do you, first of all, do you agree about the, the, Tr about the hospitality industry, that it's slow moving and conservative. and if that's the case, maybe consistent to what we've already said, what are the ways that, technology, both entrepreneuring, so in internal executives who wanna move things forward in their organization innovation wise, and obviously from a vendor perspective, what's the best path to break through if you do agree to break that conservatism or that, um. You know, the challenging environment to move, move the rock up the hill. Bryson Koehler: So I totally believe that hospitality is a laggard as it relates to technology innovation. That, that is for sure true. but I've also, you know, I've, being part of IHG, you know, uh, Holiday Inn, Holodex, the first computerized reservation system in the industry. was, you know, a branch off of, you know, the Sabre system with American Airlines and it was only about a year after that was done, so that was actually pretty fast and innovative. Um, you know, the, was the first chain to, you know, take a, a mobile booking via what was known as Air2Web back in the day. And you'd have to kind of poke through your Nokia. I mean, it was, you should have gotten a free room just for if you actually completed the process, because why in the world Michael Cohen: Yeah. When I put the punch card in, when I put the punch card in, I should have got a discount for breakfast. Bryson Koehler: exactly. But so, you know, there are examples of great innovation, um, across, but by and large, I agree with you. Why do I think that is? Goes back to what I said. I, the average decision maker on property is there because they really love hospitality. Not because they love technology. And what do we do? We show up and say, let me tell you about my cool technology. We need to stop selling technology, right? We need to sell outcomes. And, you know, I think, you know, look, what, what, what have the OTAs done really well? They didn't, you know, they don't walk in the door and sell technology. Let me tell you about my phone solution and my AI driven blah. They, they come in and they just say simply this, let me fill your hotel. Just sign here. I'll fill it. You don't have to worry about anything. I'll fill it. That's an outcome. And they've been incredibly successful. encroaching into, you know, that space, and you know, they've got, you know, what, 30, 40 percent kind of contribution in so many examples now. Um, but, you know, I think we've got technology now that can power outcomes that enables the direct channels to be as powerful. there's great time and place for the OTAs for sure, but there's a great time and place for direct. And those of us that are selling these capabilities. And again, it's why you have to be able to provide a complete suite of capability. You know, we, we have a data platform, we have a voice channel, we have our messaging channel, we have our guest feedback channel. You know, we have our ability to, you know, drive better conversion on your direct web channel. We, you know, we, we have our, you know, data powering channels. if you're just selling a point solution, it's harder, which is why I think we've got to band together more and help each other. But look, we've got to go in and sell outcomes. We need to stop going in and selling technology. Adam Mogelonsky: You know, it's, it's such a powerful point to make about selling to your customers the right way and servicing your customers on an ongoing basis. Bryson, we're going to close things off here with our fourth and final question, which is what are the key ways innovative leaders and entrepreneurs should prioritize and focus to gain traction for their business? Thanks. Bryson Koehler: Well, I think it goes back to, you know, the conversation we were having. Spend time out with your customers. You know, the business doesn't happen at HQ. It happens out in the field, right? You know, be out with your customers way more than you are today. Whatever you're doing, double it. You know, be out there. Listen. And, you know, a lot of people want to go to, you know, trade shows, and I think trade shows are a great way to hit many people all at once, but just make sure that you're not just, you know, a vendor talking to vendor. You know, we don't need vendors talking. I mean, we need to do that too, because we need better partnerships, but spend time with the folks that are putting capital on the line to own, operate, build properties. Spend time with the people in the chairs, running hotels, the management teams. those folks really, that's where it all matters. That's where the magic is. Um, if I could, you know, advise anything, it would be to double the amount of time you spend with your real customers. and I think that, you know, to me, gives you amazing insight to make sure that the problem you're trying to solve is the problem they need solved. I think it will also help you think through, you know, what partnerships, what other technologies should come together, whether that's, you know, merging two companies together or just a partnership, whatever. But. you know, what would then create a more complete suite, that would drive a better outcome? you know, we're always trying to think through how do we continue to make the outcome here, uh, you know, more, uh, understood, you know, we drive on average, a, The 18 to 20X ROI for our customers, I mean, that's huge. You know, you give me, you know, a dollar, I give you 20 back, like, let's do that deal all day long. But that only works if we, you know, communicate it in the right way, if people understand how to do that and, and that we show up and solve a complete solution. And we're doing that because we're listening to the owners and the management teams and what their real problems are. just cause it's written down in an RFP run by a procurement department, don't think that that really truly articulates the core challenge, right? Find the advisors, right? If there's advisors in there, talk to them, you know, to the extent that you can, right? Like, and you don't have to talk about the specific deal, but talk to them about the industry. Talk to them about what they're hearing. There's a lot of great knowledge out there around these big core. Challenges that we face that get lost sometimes in point solution conversations. Michael Cohen: That's, that's excellent. Really, really good. Adam Mogelonsky: Bryson, I can't thank you enough for coming on. This has been a great 40 minute discussion with a few very powerful lessons. Point Solutions, Focus, Selling Outcomes. These are all fundamental lessons going forward for the next decade. Thank you. Bryson Koehler: Thanks, Adam. Thanks, Michael. Michael Cohen: Pleasure.