Latest / Pod Save America / Is Trump's Honeymoon Over?

Transcript

Is Trump's Honeymoon Over? · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Today's presenting sponsor is SimpliSafe Home Security. Love is in
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: the air, but so are porch pirates and other threats.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Protect the ones you love with SimpliSafe. SimpliSafe can help
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: provide peace of mind with proactive protection that helps to
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: stop threats before they even have the chance to break in. Lovett,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: what do you think about SimpliSafe?
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: It helps with the porch pirates. I set up a SimpliSafe.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Very easy to do. Did it right out of the box.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: You can customize it to your home for your various
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: porches and doors and porticos, gates. Windows, transoms, bay windows,
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: French doors. And then you install it.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Works perfectly.
• 0:35
  Speaker 4: App.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Love the app. Great app.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: Highly recommend it. You like the active guard outdoor protection
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: that can help prevent break-ins before they happen?
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: Do I.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: No long-term contracts or cancellation fees. Monitoring plans start affordably
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: at around $ 1 a day. 60-day satisfaction guarantee or your
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: money back. Named best home security systems by U.S. News
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: & World Report five years in a row. and by
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: John Lovett eight years in a row. That's right. Visit simplisafe.com
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: slash cricket to claim 50% off a new system with
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: a professional monitoring plan and your first month free. That's simplisafe.com
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: slash cricket. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. SimpliSafe.com Welcome to
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: On today's show, Donald Trump and Elon Musk make their
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: bromance official during a joint interview with Sean Hannity, but
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: is the honeymoon over for the American people? How's that
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: for a cable-esque.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: Tease, Dan? That's almost sports radio-esque.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: We'll talk about why these two men are so in
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: love and why new polling shows problems for both of them. Then,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: hours after telling Hannity he'd never support cuts to Medicaid,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Trump endorses the House budget resolution, which drastically cuts Medicaid,
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: even as Republicans in Congress are starting to squirm about
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: all the doge cuts and firings that are starting to
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: hurt their constituents. And later, Dan talks to former federal
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: prosecutor Andrew Weissman about the purges going on at the
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Justice Department, the prospects for the corruption case against Eric Adams,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: and much more. But first... I know it's hard to
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: keep up with all the news lately and that people
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: don't tune into this particular podcast to hear the two
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: of us just riff on global affairs.
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: Their mistake, not ours.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: I do think it's important for everyone to understand that
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: this week, America has essentially switched sides in the war
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: between Russia, a repressive, brutal dictatorship, and Ukraine, the neighboring
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: democracy of that Russia invaded. On Tuesday's episode, Tommy and
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: I talked about how Trump and his administration have been
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: speaking about negotiating an end to the war in a
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: way that mass murderer Vladimir Putin couldn't have scripted better himself,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: including Trump's claim that Ukraine started the war, which the
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: whole world knows isn't true, including the vast majority of Americans.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Putin has said repeatedly that Ukraine isn't a real country,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: that it belongs to Russia, and that Russia wants it back.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: That's why he invaded Crimea in 2014. That's why he
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: invaded Ukraine three years ago when Ukrainian president Vladimir Zelensky
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: gently corrected Trump on this point by telling reporters that, uh,
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: he greatly respects president Trump, but worries that he lives
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: in a quote disinformation space. Trump of course lost it.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: He posted an angry truth, uh, on his way to
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: his beach club in Miami. Here's how he responded.
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: He refuses to have elections. It's low in the real
• 3:56
  Speaker 4: Ukrainian polls. I mean, how can you be high when
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: every city is being demolished?
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: It's hard to be high.
• 4:01
  Speaker 4: Somebody said, oh, no, his polls are good. Give me
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: a break.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: A dictator without elections.
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: Zelensky better move fast or he's not going to have
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: a country left.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: Got to move.
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: Got to move fast because that war is going in
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: the wrong direction. In the meantime, we're successfully negotiating an
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: end to the war with Russia. Something all admit that
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: only Trump is gonna be able to do in the
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: Trump administration. We're gonna be able to do it.
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: I think Putin even admitted that.
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. That's Trump speaking in Miami at an
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: investment conference organized by Saudi Arabia, because of course. Then
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: on Thursday in the White House briefing room, National Security
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Advisor Mike Waltz got this question from Fox News' Peter Doocy.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Who does he think is more responsible for the Russian
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: invasion of Ukraine, Putin or Zelenskyy?
• 4:48
  Speaker 5: Well, look, his goal, Peter, is to bring this war
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: to an end, period. Some of the rhetoric coming out
• 4:55
  Speaker 5: of Kyiv, frankly, and insults to President Trump were unacceptable.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: Who's to say? Who's to say who's responsible for the
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: Russian invasion of Ukraine? It's right there in the question, Dan.
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: It feels like the absolute craziest resistance Russia conspiracies from
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: 2017 have now come true. What is your reaction to
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: all this?
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: As I do whenever I want to understand what's happening
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: in the world, I listen to Pod Save the World
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: so I can have Tommy and Ben explain it to me.
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: And this obviously felt like a big deal in the
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: moment and seems crazy and insane. But I think Ben
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: and Tommy would put it in a perspective that I
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: did not fully comprehend at the beginning of this, which
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: is this is not just the shift between Biden's foreign
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: policy and Trump's foreign policy. This is the abandonment of
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: entire bipartisan principles that have undergirded US foreign policies since
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: World War II. We've decided that we are no longer
• 5:59
  Speaker 3: a leader in the forces of democracy, that we are
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: going to side with autocracy. And that is deeply alarming.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: It is incredibly scary. You have the President of the
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: United States not just siding with Putin, but calling Zelensky
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: an unelected dictator and then No one in the administration
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: would be willing to say that Putin, not exactly known
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: for free and fair elections, to call him for what
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: he is. It is truly insane through the looking glass stuff.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: And it has huge consequences for the United States' role
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: in the world going forward.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: And our safety and security. I mean, I'd say when
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: the week started, my anxiety over this was at like
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: a six or a seven.
• 6:42
  Speaker 3: Which is your natural resting state, to be clear.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly. Last few days, bumped it up to a nine.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: And honestly, part of that was listening to Pod Save
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: the World, which I know that's a tough plug for
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Pod Save the World, but you should all listen to
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: this because Ben and Tommy did an excellent job with
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: this this week. And I guess we both listened to
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: it before bed, coincidentally.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: I listened. I'm more into sleep hygiene than you, so
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: I listened to it earlier in the day, but was
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: thinking about it all throughout the rest of.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: The day because it really stuck with me. Because I
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: was texting you last night after I listened to it.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: I was texting Tommy and Ben and you and being like,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: that is the scariest fucking thing.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: I'm not here to give you advice, but if I
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: were to give you advice, it's just like, because I
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: know what your sleep habits are. I would just, I'd
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: pick a time right before dinner and say, I'm not
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: going to listen to any more political podcast, even once
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: done by two of my best friends.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: But I've been thinking about it because, you know, we
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: all know the polls. We've talked about it. You know,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: do Americans really care about... foreign policy and even foreign
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: wars that americans aren't fighting in and what does that
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: have to do with us and why are we are
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: we sending money to ukraine that's crazy well we should
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: spend more money home and what do we have to
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: care about that and you know the global order and
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: institutions like what does that matter putin wants to reconstitute
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: the soviet union he has for a long time he
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: has nuclear weapons he almost used nuclear weapons on the
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: battlefield in ukraine we know that from the Biden administration,
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: from what we learned in 2022 and 2023. Putin is
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: getting help from North Korea and China to other nuclear-armed dictatorships.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: And now he knows, and the entire world knows, that
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: the United States, the world's other biggest nuclear power, no
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: longer has any interest in supporting Ukraine, doesn't seem to
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: have much interest in supporting Europe either or defending Europe.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: wants to take over Canada, might bomb Mexico, is sending
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: asylum seekers who are escaping persecution from China, Iran, Afghanistan
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: to a camp in a jungle in Panama, another country
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: that Trump is bullying because he wants to take over
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: the Panama Canal. And what does all that tell Putin? Like,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: do you think that makes him less likely to invade Europe?
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: Do you think it makes China less likely to invade Taiwan?
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: The whole world now sees the United States and see
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: what Trump has done and thinks, and all the bad
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: actors in the world, all the bad regimes, all the
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: nuclear armed regimes are going to say like, well, Donald
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Trump and the United States aren't going to step in.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: They're looking to take over a bunch of countries themselves.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: So why don't we do whatever the fuck we want?
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: And once Trump and his new dictator pals, who all
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: have nuclear weapons... have finished carving up the world, do
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: we think that they're just going to like relax and
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: leave each other alone? Is that how things usually happen?
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: When the world order is just a bunch of nuclear
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: powers with fucking lunatics running them who are dictators? Like what?
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, what has held the world order together is
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: that you had the strongest military in the world, the
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: United States, on the side of democracy, which puts you
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: on the opposite side of the Soviet Union, then Russia,
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: then China. And if the United States leaves that, then
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: the entire balance collapses. Europe, individual European nations, Europe together,
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: NATO without the United States, cannot muster the response and
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: certainly does not pose enough of a threat to cause
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: Putin or China or Iran or someone else not to
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: fulfill their ambitions.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: And like the craziest thing, one of the craziest things
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Trump said this week, and it sort of went underreported
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: in his, I think it was his post about his,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: it was like a readout of his call with Putin,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: or maybe it was about Ukraine. I don't know what
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: it was, but he was like, what do we care
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: about this? We have a big, beautiful ocean to protect
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: us in between it's like uh do you see world
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: war ii well like.
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: What do you see any war with boats any.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: Well like what are you talking about it's fucking 2025 it.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: Could be it could be fucking 1825 people have taken how.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Many nuclear weapons could reach the united states what are
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: you talking about you fucking moron it is it is
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: really bad though and you know it like This whole
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: thing through the campaign, isolationism, America first, we want to
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: turn inward. It's not turning inward at all, actually. It's
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: Trump going out there and saying, I want to be
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: friends with the other autocrats. And who has he bullied?
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: He's bullied Canada, Mexico, Denmark, all our allies. Germany, J.G.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: Vance went to Germany and bullied Germany and tried to
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: bolster the far-right party in Germany. So like, oh, then
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: maybe we can have a far-right party Arm to the
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: teeth Germany. That always works well.
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: Well, it's also just the fact that the United States
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: is now on the side of the pro-Russian far-right parties
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: within European countries like Germany.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: And even if that doesn't lead to another world war
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: or nuclear war, that leads to a world where millions,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: billions of people all over the world are brutally repressed
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: because they live under dictatorships and they don't have rights.
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: And that's what Vladimir Putin is. And that's what Xi
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Jinping is. And that's what all of these guys that
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: we're now in bed with are. It's bad. It's bad.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: It also seems like a fair amount of the motivation
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: here is economic. In the press briefing, Waltz also scolded
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Zelensky for rejecting a deal where Ukraine would give us
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: the rights to 50% of their rare earth minerals forever
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: in exchange for U.S. support that somehow wouldn't include any
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: security guarantees. We talked about this a little bit on
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Tuesday's pod, but now they're really mad that Zelensky didn't...
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: What a deal. You give us half of your resources
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: and we'll, what, say that we support you? We're not
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: going to militarily support you.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: We won't even invite you to the negotiations about your
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: own country.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: What kind of a fucking deal is that? We also
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: know that the Russian negotiators made, of course, an explicitly
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: capitalist argument to the American team that American corporations... stand
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: to make billions if the U.S. will allow investment in
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Russia again?
• 13:15
  Speaker 5: Of course.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: So is the new world order also going to be
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: autocrats like Putin and Trump just carving up the world
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: and plundering all the wealth?
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: It seems like we're heading that direction. In all seriousness,
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: there is a reason that the world order exists as
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: it does. There's a reason there are organizations like NATO.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: There are reasons that there are alliances like is that
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: this shit is much harder than Donald Trump thinks it is, right?
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: Even the United States is safer, more secure, stronger when
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: we are working with other people. And even in just
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: this deal that Trump is trying to, I mean, just
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: you couldn't fucking script this, with Putin in Saudi Arabia
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: without Ukraine, about Ukraine, is how is that going to
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: be implemented without Europe?
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: The United States already said they're not going to provide security.
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: So who is going to do that? Trump is going to,
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: at some point, need these countries for things. They are
• 14:09
  Speaker 3: major US trading partners. They are our allies. We are
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: involved in security agreements and intelligence sharing agreements with them
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: all over the world. And so there is– Trump wants
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: to head in one direction, but there is a reality
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: to foreign policy in a complicated, interconnected world that is
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: going to make it hard. It doesn't mean it can't happen,
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: but it does put challenges into this absurd premise. I
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: do just want to say that it is not a
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: coincidence that so many rich tech people have adopted this
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: pro-Russian stance in recent months and years. Russia is right
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: that that is a very large market that U.S. companies
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: could be doing business in, and that is causing a
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: lot of people to throw aside what they care about
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: to hopefully make a little bit more money.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and corruption is a feature of not a
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: bug of authoritarian regimes, right? Like the only thing dictators
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: love as much as they love power is money. And
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: that's why they're all surrounded by oligarchs and they spend
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: all the time stealing from their own people who then
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: hate them and then they repress.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: That seems familiar. I can't put my finger on it,
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: but it seems like we've been running into that recently.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: You know what? That's a great segue. Yeah.
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: You know, I've read the outline. I knew what we
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: were doing here.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: Oh, you did. Okay. I'm glad. That's so nice. Donald
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: Trump and Elon Musk sat for a joint interview with
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Sean Hannity that aired on Tuesday night, which didn't make
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: too much news, but was mostly notable for how nauseating
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: it was to watch. Let's listen.
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: They want you two to start, they want a divorce.
• 15:44
  Speaker 6: They want you two to start hating each other.
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: Well, I respect him. I've always respected him.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: Well, I love the president.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: I just want to be clear about that. You love
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: the president. I think President Trump is a good man.
• 15:54
  Speaker 3: That's nice the way he said that, you know? There's
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: something nice about that.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Not once have I seen him do something that was mean.
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: Or cruel or.
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: or wrong.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: I couldn't find anyone smarter, right? We settled on this guy. Well,
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: thanks for having me.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: I actually am tech support, though.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: But he gets it done.
• 16:09
  Speaker 6: He's a leader.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: This guy's a very, he's a brilliant guy.
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: He's a great guy. He's got tremendous imagination.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: You're much more than a technologist.
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: You are that.
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: But he's also a good person. He's a very good person.
• 16:21
  Speaker 6: This is going to be hard.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm interviewing two brothers here. Fucking get
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: a room, you two. What did you make of the
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: interview and their budding relationship?
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: I would say it is a phenomenal achievement that Sean
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: Hannity could host an hour-long interview with two of the
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: world's most famous and controversial people, people famous for saying interesting, crazy,
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: insane things, and have that interview make no news. You
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: said not much news, no news. It was... ungodly boring.
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: It was like watching wallpaper dry on the wall. It
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: was so boring. The fact that he pulled that off,
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: did he.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: I.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: Just can't even imagine how that even happened. Like, Donald
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: Trump has never sat for an hour without saying something
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: interesting before. Elon Musk has never sat for an hour
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: without saying something controversial or angry. I mean, just truly
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: mind-numbingly boring and stupid. As for the relationship, maybe they
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: like each other.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe they do.
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: It seems like... Who am I to say? I don't
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: want to play psychologist here, but Donald Trump's not exactly
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: known for hiding his feelings. He can barely look at J.D.
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: Vance when they're in a room together. It's clear he
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: cannot stomach Mike Pence at all. I thought he was
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: just a huge goober.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: Or his wife.
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: Or his wife. Or his own wife.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Sorry, I'm forgetting Mike Pence's wife.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: I thought you meant Karen Pence.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: No, no, definitely doesn't like her. But no, he doesn't
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: even like Melania. Maybe they do.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: Elon Musk is one of the few people in the
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: world who Trump needs more than they need Trump, right?
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: He's got, he spent a quarter billion dollars to get
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: him elected. He is this cudgel for Trump as he
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: tries to implement his policy because Musk keeps saying he'll
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: fund primaries against people who don't vote for his nominees.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: That clearly was quite effective since the earlier, on Thursday,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: we confirmed Kash Patel as FBI director. So anything goes.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: And Elon Musk controls his favorite social media platform. And
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: so like they're like, I don't know if they really
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: like each other or not, but Trump is not, he's more,
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: he is more forgiving of Musk or more willing to
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: tolerate him than he is anyone else.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is brought to you by Lumen. Did
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: you know that when your metabolism is working properly, you
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: will feel the benefits in literally every aspect of your life.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Lumen is a valuable tool. that can give you insights
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: to create a healthy metabolism for your body. Lumen is
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: the world's first handheld metabolic coach. It's a device that
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: measures your metabolism through your breath. And on the app,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: it lets you know if you're burning fat or carbs
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: and gives you tailored guidance to improve your nutrition, workout, sleep,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: and even stress management. All you have to do is
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: breathe into your Lumen first thing in the morning, and
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: you'll know what's going on with your metabolism, whether you're
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: burning mostly fats or carbs. Then Lumen gives you a
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: personalized nutrition plan for that day based on your measurements.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: You can also breathe into it before and after workouts
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: and meals. So you know exactly what's going on in
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: your body in real time. And Lumen will give you
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: tips to keep you on top of your health game.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Lumen's all the rage here at Crooked. Everyone's just blown
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: into their Lumen. They can't stop, won't stop. Figuring out
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: what's going on with their metabolism, getting some nutrition plans,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: figuring out after their workout how much fats or carbs
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: they're burning. It's great. We love it. Because your metabolism
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: is at the center of everything your body does. Optimal
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: metabolic health. translates into a bunch of benefits including easier
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: weight management improved energy levels better fitness results better sleep
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: and more take the next step to improving your health
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: go to lumen.me slash crooked to get 20 off your
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: lumen that's l-u-m-e-n dot me slash crooked for 20 off
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: your purchase thank you lumen for sponsoring this episode. My
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: main takeaway from the interview, besides yes, that it was boring, yes,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: that Sean Hannity somehow managed to sit for an hour
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: with these two and never brought up anything interesting. It
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: was just a love fest the entire time. And it
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: was nauseating to watch. But as I watched it, I
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: was like, I think I was completely wrong about and
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: I think all of us were wrong about all of
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: the guesses about this relationship and like, when's the, when's
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: the divorce coming? When's the falling out? And like, I
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: think you're right. The Trump needs Elon and uses Elon,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: but Trump needs and uses a lot of people and
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: doesn't love them or doesn't even like them or doesn't
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: show that kind of affection for them. Like, I think
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: they genuinely like each other because they're just, they're kindred spirits.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Like Trump in his first term, was extremely frustrated that
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: he couldn't do whatever he wanted. You know, it was
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: lawyers and his advisors and people in the federal government
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: telling him no, or this is against the law, or
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: this is a bad idea, whatever. And now he's got
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: another famous rich dude authoritarian who doesn't care about laws,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: doesn't care about other people's opinions, thinks he knows everything,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: and is willing to be his enforcer. And that's what
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: he needed, right? Like no one else has been able
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: to take what Donald Trump wants to do, much of
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: it illegal, much of it corrupt, and do it for him.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: And I think the reason that Elon does it is
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: because he's been radicalized. He craves attention. He craves recognition,
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: wants to be even richer and more powerful. And, you know,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: of course, also he confuses attention and recognition. And both
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: of them, both of them do. Both of them have this,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: like this, this deep bottomless need to be loved and
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: they can't get it. And they're, and neither of them
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: are like truly happy until they, they're just keep wanting, wanting, wanting,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: they want more money, more power. And they, and they
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: found a kindred spirit in each other. I think they
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: genuinely like each other.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: It's interesting because two, like you point out, they're very,
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: very similar people. And usually two people who are exactly
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: the same, particularly powerful people. butt heads immediately because you
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: can see in the other person what you subconsciously don't
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: like about yourself. But that doesn't seem to be the
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: case here. And I think maybe with Trump, it is
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: he respects two things more than anything else, money and
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: attention or fame. And Elon Musk has more of both
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: than any other person on the planet. He's the only
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: person- Very good point.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: Especially good point on the attention.
• 22:53
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: He's the only– that is why– I agree with you
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: that they genuinely like each other. But even if they didn't,
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: it's one of the reasons why Trump is– I do
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: not think a divorce is coming is because if they're
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: the only person on the planet that Trump would probably
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: be worried to get into an online spat with would
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: be Musk. He controls Twitter. He gets more attention. He
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: is better at it. And like he is– no one
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: else has a megaphone as big as Trump's with the
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: possible exception of Elon Musk.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: Small thing, but at one point, and I think we
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: played the beginning of it in the clip, which is
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: when Hannity's like, oh, they're trying to get, they're trying
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: to drive a wedge between you two. And Trump responds
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: by saying like, I know, I saw that. He's like,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: it's so, because they're so bad at it. Democrats are
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: so bad at it. I used to think they were
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: good at it. They're really bad at it. And you
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: know what? He's right. Yeah. Because it has been so
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: fucking glaringly obvious. It's what, I keep thinking about what
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: you said, which is like reading the stage directions, you know?
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: And it's like, President Elon, President Musk, and time has
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: them behind the fucking desk. And it's like, can we, like,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: just everyone's got to learn the art of subtlety just
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: a little bit here.
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: It's so painfully obvious and cheesy. Like, it's, of course,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: what Democrats are trying to do by driving a wedge
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: with him is obvious to Donald Trump and Elon Musk. Like, I.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: We can't communicate our own economic policies to our voters
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: with $ 2 billion of advertising money. I don't think we're
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: going to be able to tweet our way into splitting
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: up Donald Trump and Elon Musk.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: It's just embarrassing. One bit that did make a little news,
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: Trump acknowledged, quote, inflation is back before saying I had
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with it and blaming Biden. You and
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: I talked about how some polling from a few weeks
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: ago showed that most people don't think Trump's doing enough
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: to bring down prices. There's been a slew of polling
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: this week that basically says the same thing and also
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: shows some deterioration in Trump's political standing. Trump's approval ratings
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: are now underwater across the board. His economic approval, notably,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: is worse than his overall job approval. People like what
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: he's doing on immigration. Other issues are okay, but he's
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: actually underwater on economic even worse than his job approval.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: And Elon Musk's approval ratings are even worse. Pew has
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: Musk at 42% favorable, 54% unfavorable. A new Quinnipiac poll
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: has 55% of voters saying that Elon has too big
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: of a role in the government, with only 36% saying
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: his role is just right. And a new Reuters poll
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: shows 71% of respondents agreeing with the statement, the very
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: wealthy have too much influence in the White House. Washington
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Post analysis headline on Thursday was this, polls show Trump's
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: honeymoon is over. What say you, host of Polar Coaster
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: and author of Message Box?
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: I'm so glad you segued that Message Box because- if
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: you were listening to this on Friday morning, in your
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: inboxes right now is my take on this very question.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: No thank you to the Washington Post for trying to
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: get in front of me here. But there are two
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: points here. One is Trump definitely had a honeymoon. He
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: was more power at the outset of this presidency than
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: at any point previously. But that was, it's the lamest
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: honeymoon in history. His net approval rating when he was
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: elected or when he was sworn in was 43 points
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: lower than Barack Obama's. He was even like, about 15
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: points lower than Joe Biden at the same point. He
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: is the only modern president with lower approval ratings at
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: the outset of the presidency than Donald Trump in 2025
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: is Donald Trump in 2017. Yeah. And, but having said
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: that the direction of the polls is very clear. He
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: is now back. He's back to mid forties, which was
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: in most of these polls, which is where he was.
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: That's sort of his, sort of his, high end of
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: his range for much of his first term. And there
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: are three reasons for this, and they're pretty clear in
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: the polling. One, as you pointed out, is the economy.
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: His economic approval rating in the Reuters poll has dropped
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: to 39. It has dropped significantly over the last month.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: You saw this in the CBS poll that two-thirds of
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: voters thought he wasn't focused enough on lowering prices. The
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: second reason is people don't like his agenda, right? You
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: have majorities who Washington Post Bowl who do not agree
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: with what he's been doing. And that makes complete sense.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: He ran on lowering prices and securing the border, but
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: all of the news is about slashing government, weaponization, cozying
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: up to Putin, all of these things. And it's like,
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: presidents get in trouble when they campaign on one agenda
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: and govern on another. And he campaigned as, it was bullshit,
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: but he campaigned as a populist who wanted to fight
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: for the working class. He is governing as a government slashing,
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: Medicaid cutting, austerity agenda. That's not what people voted for
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: in that asserting him. And the last thing is that
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: Elon Musk is dragging him down in some ways. And
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: one of the more interesting things, like Elon Musk's favorability
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: ratings are fine. You know, 44, it's not great, but
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: he's actually more popular than just about every politician who's
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: not named Barack Obama right now and Donald Trump. But
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: the better question to ask is, do you approve of
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: the job he's doing? Because the favorability rating includes, do
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: you like him? Seems highly unlikely. But also all the Tesla, SpaceX,
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: everything he's accomplished for the world and the planet, which
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: some of it is quite good. When you ask, do
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: you approve of how he's doing his job in government?
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: Only 34% of people in the Washington Post approve of him.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They had quotes from some of the respondents in
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: the Washington Post poll. about why they supported Trump or
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: opposed him or whatever. And I saw one woman who
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: voted for Trump said, you know, Elon's a smart guy.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: And I think he's really smart with his companies, but
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: I really don't like what he's doing, cutting all these programs.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: He's got too much influence in there.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And you see that in like 26% in that
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: Washington Post poll, approve of Elon Musk shutting down federal
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: agencies and 52% opposed. You have six in 10 people
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: who think, who are concerned about Elon Musk and the
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Doge team having access to sensitive personal information. Elon Musk
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: is a political, he is helping Trump accomplish his agenda,
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: but he is hurting him politically in how he's doing
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: it because the agenda he's accomplishing is unpopular. It's not
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: what people voted for. It's not what they want.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I think there's also something instructive in all these numbers
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: for Democrats and anyone trying to oppose Trump right now
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: and wondering what we should do and does anything matter?
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Which is like when you ask people, you know, there's
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: been some analysis that Trump's approval ratings, at least for
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks, have been relatively high, partly
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: because he's taken action and he's doing stuff. And people
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: like presidents who take action. And I think that's right.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: That analysis is correct. And when you ask people, oh, well,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: what do you think about him making government more efficient?
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: People like the idea of making government more efficient. They, unfortunately,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: you know, a slight majority likes the deportation agenda. That's
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: also because they think he is deporting undocumented immigrants with
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: criminal records, which he is clearly, that is only a
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: small portion of the immigrants he's deporting. We can talk
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: about that some other time. But when you get into
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: the programs he's cutting, what Elon is doing, even with
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: something like USAID, when we talked about this, 6 in
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: 10 oppose closing USAID, even when it's talked about like that,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: which has now become famous. The reporting around Doge what
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Elon has been up to, what the doge bags have
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: been up to, the cuts, the firings, and what Democrats
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: have been saying about this and the noise that people
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: have been making just across the country about this, I
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: think it's breaking through and people are hearing it. And
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: so we're starting to see it in the polling that yes,
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: maybe people liked him taking action and yes, they want
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: government to be more efficient, but the way that they're
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: seeing it happen, they despise.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: And just as a point, and this is a... If
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: we continue on the right trend, this could go down
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: as one of the great political miscalculations in history is,
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: let's say Donald Trump had put Russell Vogt in charge
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: of Doge.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. That's interesting.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: No one would know. But because they put a person
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: who gets more attention than almost anyone else on the
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: planet in charge of implementing the unpopular agenda, people know
• 31:17
  Speaker 3: about the unpopular agenda. Elon Musk is a figure, and
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: this is sort of how the media environment works. This
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: is If you have people who are controversial, who you
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: talk about, and then you get engagement, you create this
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: incentive structure for more and more people to talk about it.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: No one is getting more TikTok views or reposts or
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: whatever you call them or skeets or whatever else talking
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: about Russell vote or Kevin Hassett, the NEC director, anything
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: like that. But if you put a huge, giant, famous
• 31:45
  Speaker 3: celebrity who loves attention in charge of doing things that
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: you probably wish people did not know, you're probably going
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: to suffer politically from that down the line.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Who has one of the biggest megaphones in the world
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: and is literally narrating what he's doing minute by minute,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: including many of his fuck-ups.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: I mean, it is a wild choice.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: And I know you wrote another message box on this,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: like whether it's the right strategy for Democrats to focus
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: on Elon Musk. I say yes. I mean, that's the
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: conclusion you came to as well. But I don't see
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: any downside to this.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: I think you have to do it in the right way.
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: The reason you have to do it is we can't
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: get attention for our message. We have to go where
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: there is attention. We can't make attention. We have to
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: go get it. And it is with Elon. Democrats have
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: been attacking Donald Trump for a decade now. That is
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: not in and of itself newsy and interesting. If you
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: attack Elon Musk, you're going to get more attention. I
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: do think it's important to weave it into a larger
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: narrative and not like just simply calling Elon Musk a dick,
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: although it was quite funny when Robert Garcia did that.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: That's not exactly what we have to do here. We
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: have to make Elon Musk be a data point in
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: a larger story, not just about Trump, because barring a
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: dramatic change to the Constitution, he's not running again, but
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: about the Republican Party that's going along with this, right?
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: About the corruption, about the influence of the world's richest
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: man rooting around in our government, affecting agencies that are
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: investigating his or regulating his companies. It has to be
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: part of a larger story about corruption because the polls
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: show that people are very concerned about the influence of corporations, billionaires,
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: and Elon Musk specifically. And so we should make that
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: part of the story.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: And how it's affecting you. And like, you know, he's
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: destroying jobs and he's breaking government services that people depend
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: on and that keep us safe. And I think that
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: like making, that's why the whole you know, the drama
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: between Elon and Trump and the relationship and all that
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: kind of stuff. And it's just a, it's a, it's
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a sideshow because I think what's
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: going to be most impactful is making sure that we
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: connect all of the firings and all of the services
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: that are cut to what Trump and Elon and the
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: whole Republican party are doing. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: We love therapy, right? We do. Everyone needs therapy, even
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: if you don't think you need therapy.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: You definitely do. The less you think you need it,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: the more you need it.
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean something is wrong with you.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: No.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: But it helps to talk to someone. You have to
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: sit down and have someone who their job is to
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: just listen and to give you advice.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Otherwise, you try to change the name of Greenland to Red, White,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: and Blue Land, or you try to make a movie
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: where an ape plays a musician.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: A lot of people that could use therapy in that
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: White House.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and Congress.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: Including the two billionaires in charge of the country.
• 34:33
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Boy, they both could use therapy. Anyway, if you're listening, Elon,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: go get some BetterHelp.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: What if there was someone that can just be a
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: dad that hugs these men that need dads?
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: And if you can't do that, BetterHelp is a good,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: good option.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: Just a government dad.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: over 5 million people worldwide. Access a diverse network of
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. Try BetterHelp.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Visit betterhelp.com slash PSA to get 10% off your first month.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash P-S-A. In addition to
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: all the polling, Axios reports that Trump and Elon face
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: a growing doge revolt from GOP lawmakers who are, quote,
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: growing unnerved by what they see as an imprecise exercise.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: I would say yes.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: I loved that. Susan Collins suggested that it's unconstitutional for
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: the executive branch to refuse to spend money Congress appropriated,
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: no shit, and said the administration is, quote, moving too fast.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Lisa Murkowski told CBS News that the job cuts are
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: hitting Alaska really hard and that a lot of the
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: firings are, quote, flat out wrong because people are getting
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: told they're losing their jobs for performance reasons when that
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: clearly isn't true because they've had performance reviews that said
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: that they are doing an excellent job and then they
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: get fired. Meanwhile, the Doge wrecking ball continues to swing
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: with huge cuts and firings happening at TSA, the IRS, FEMA, HUD,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: the Department of Housing and Urban Development. the entire agency
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: that helps respond to disasters for people's homes when a
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: disaster hits, cutting like 80% of that. They're even cutting
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: the NIH unit that focuses on Alzheimer's research. In the
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: morning after Trump told Hannity that, quote, Medicare, Medicaid, none
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: of that stuff is going to be touched, he weighed
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: in to endorse the House Republican budget that would in
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: fact cut Medicaid by $ 880 billion. Why would he do this?
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, I would just want to focus on the
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: NIH one for a second. I saw a post on
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: social media about this, which is the most impactful and
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: innovative research on Alzheimer's is coming from NIH. And they've
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: made real progress with therapeutic drugs in recent years and
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: could be close to some sort of treatment or cure.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: And the way it was described was basically cutting funding
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: for the NIH right now It's like taking away your
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: kid's bike the day the training wheels come off just
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: after someone told you that they had the possibility of
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: entering the Olympics. Oh.
• 37:04
  Speaker 6: Right?
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: It's just like we're close to doing something and you
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: were gutting it. And all of these things do– they
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: do matter and they do break through to people because
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: they're basically finding something that every person in America cares about.
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: Everyone cares about different things. And then cutting it and
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: affecting it. And there's– why are they doing this? I
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: can't possibly fathom. You just have a bunch of people
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: who know nothing about government. who don't seem to care
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: about people who view government as the enemy, trying to
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: just meet some number of fired employees, budget cuts, without
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: really thinking in any holistic way about how you actually
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: help people. Because they don't think government should help people.
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: That's not what they believe. And we have seen this
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: to a lesser degree when George W. Bush was president.
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: And he put a bunch of hacks in at FEMA,
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: and Katrina happened. And this is what We are in
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: dangerous territory here. This is what happens when people who
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: hate government are in charge of government.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: The Medicaid thing is going to be a huge problem
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: for them because either they don't touch Medicaid, like Trump
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: said on Hannity, which means that if they don't touch
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Medicaid and they're not going to touch Medicare or Social
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Security and they're going to add to defense spending, there's
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: just not enough money to cut anything else and also
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: pay for a $ 4. 5 trillion tax cut. So basically then
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: you get down to drastic cuts to all the other
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: spending in government, food inspection, NIH, healthcare, all this other stuff, right?
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: And you still have just, you just add a huge,
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: huge amount to the deficit because you just give a
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: huge tax cut to rich people. So that's one option.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: The other option is an $ 880 billion cut to Medicaid,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: which is what is in the House Republican budget that
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Trump endorsed. So they're talking about work requirements. And, okay, well,
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: if you get Medicaid, you should work. Now, that's kind
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: of bullshit because what happens when you institute work requirements
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: in a state that is giving people Medicaid is you
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: end up just a lot of people lose their coverage.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: And it's not like they're not working because they don't
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: want to work. A lot of times it's they're not
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: working because they can't work. Regardless, if you instituted work requirements,
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: it would save you about $ 100 billion in Medicaid. Okay,
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: so they want $ 880 billion. So you still get $ 780
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: billion to go. Medicaid covers 72 million Americans. It covers
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: nearly half of all births in this country. Half. Two-thirds
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: of all nursing home stays. Working class people who are
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: just above the poverty line are on Medicaid. By the way,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: a lot of these people who are on Medicaid, probably
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: most of the people who are on Medicaid now, are
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: in red states. And our Trump voters, which is why
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Steve Bannon's out there saying, why would we cut Medicaid?
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: We can't cut Medicaid. They're going to have problems both
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: on their right flank, I think, cutting Medicaid among some
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: of the populists like Bannon. And they're going to have
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: a ton of problems, they already are, with Republicans, House
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: Republicans and Senate Republicans who were in vulnerable districts and
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: states in 2026. So I don't know how they're going
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: to get all the math done here. and get all
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: these cuts done. Because you cut $ 780 billion, $ 880 billion
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: from Medicaid, you are throwing millions and millions of people
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: off their healthcare.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's a politically insane thing to do. And
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: you're right, how they get it done. I mean, the
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: most likely scenario is they just pass the whole thing.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: One way in which they could do it is they
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: just pass it with no pay-fors, right? You can do
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: some things on how they do the CBO scoring, the
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: commercial budget office scoring to make it seem less added
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: to the deficit. And you can make it nine years
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: instead of 10 years so you can know the budget.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: When there's all this nerdy stuff you can do, it's
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: still unpaid for. It's all gimmick bullshit. But can they
• 40:48
  Speaker 3: get House Freedom Caucus members who are demanding trillions of
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: dollars in cuts to go for that?
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Maybe. Maybe Trump just is like, you know, do it
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: or else Elon Musk will fund a primary challenge and
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: I'll send my pardon January 6th goons after you.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: Well, he got them last time, right? He did get
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: them to do, this is exactly what, this is how
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: things played out in 2017 when they passed their tax cut.
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: Now it's a much narrower majority now. Now you can
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: lose– by the time this happens, three people probably. But
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: it is– it's fascinating that they are taking on this
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: sort of– it's a truly insane thing to do. And
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: it's even more insane now that the Republican Party is
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: branding itself as this multiracial working class coalition that you're
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: going to kick most– a lot of your coalition off healthcare.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: It's actually probably– it is by the numbers– Way worse
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: politics than repealing Obamacare. Way worse. It's more people for
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: more things in more parts of the country.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: And Bannon gets it, and Josh Hawley gets it, but
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: then I guess they were in their Senate caucus meeting,
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: and Ted Cruz was like, Medicaid cuts must be on
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: the table, and there was a lot of applause. Because
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of it's still Paul Ryan's party, and... I
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: bet we're going to see Elon Musk tweeting about how
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: we need to gut Medicaid, too.
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: Oh, the fraud in Medicaid. So much about fraud.
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's going to be a whole thing. I mean,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: he's already doing it on Social Security. So I don't
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: think that's going to help their cause either. One thing
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: that might help their popularity is the idea they're floating
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: now to take some of the savings that Doge is
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: allegedly making and return that money to taxpayers in the
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: form of tax refunds or checks or something. There's this
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: idea floating around that they take 20% of the savings,
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: the Doge savings, and they use it to pay down
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: the deficit, and they take another 20%, and they hand
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: out refunds to everyone, a $ 5, 000 check for every family.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: What do you make of that proposal?
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: It seems like it's probably great politics. It seems like
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: Trump is going to love it because he loves sending
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: checks to people. In his somewhat simplistic brain, just giving
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: people money means that they'll support you. So I think
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: he would like it. I think there are some real
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: challenges to doing it. One, Almost certainly would increase inflation.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: So that's one. Although Kevin Hassett, who is an economist,
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: I believe, and Trump's economic advisor, said it would not,
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: which means he should have to turn in his... Because
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: he said, if you give people money, they'll spend it.
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: It's like, yeah.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's... Yeah.
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: That's that you're overheating the economy. So that's one. Two,
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House today, said that it was...
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: Essentially said it was a non-starter for him because... His
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: caucus wants to... That's more spending, right? He wants to
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: take those savings.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: He's doing the math to get to $ 5, 000 a family, right?
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: And first of all, they cut out everyone who doesn't
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: pay income taxes, which is 40% of people in the country, right?
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: So then you're given $ 5, 000. And basically, it's $ 400 billion
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: is 20% of the trillion that they're thinking they're going
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: to save in spending cuts. But first of all, Doge
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: has saved... a couple billion so far. So the idea
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: that they're going to get from a couple billion to
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: a trillion and then give everyone a rebate seems a
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: little fanciful.
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: But I wouldn't be surprised if at the end of
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: the day, the tax cut package includes something that they
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: call a doge rebate that is some number much smaller
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: than $ 5, 000 that Donald Trump and Elon Musk both signed
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: together with hearts over the eyes and their names.
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: Well, you remember this is what George W. Bush did
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: in the 2001 tax cut. He sent people checks.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's too appealing to Donald Trump and
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: to Elon Musk to avoid. So I could see some
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: version of it ending up in the final, but certainly
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: not $ 5, 000 checks. And they're certainly not finding a trillion
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: dollars in Doge cuts that aren't incredibly unpopular.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. All right.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: One more thing before we go to your interview with
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Andrew Weissman. Right before we were recording, Elon Musk did
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: take the stage at CPAC. He didn't make a lot
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: of news, but the appearance was so special that I
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: asked the team to put together some highlights so that
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: you and I could react to them in real time
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: for the first time.
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: Have you seen any of this?
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: I caught like one part of it maybe, but I
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: was rushing and I just told Saul, you give us
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: the super cut and Dan and I will react.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was doing the Andrew Weissman interview immediately before
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: we recorded, and I learned about his appearance not long ago. So, cool.
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: Let's do this.
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: Amazing. Okay. I wish we could... We don't have any video,
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: do we? That's okay. Dan's going to have to sit.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: The beginning part is amazing. I'll just tell you. He
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: walks on stage, and Javier Mille, the president of Argentina,
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: hands him a chainsaw. And Elon Musk is waving... So,
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: the first thing you'll hear is Elon Musk waving around
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: the chainsaw, and then we'll see what happens. This is
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: the chainsaw for bureaucracy. Chainsaw! In Europe, they put people
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: in prison for memes. Yeah, we want to go see
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: it and just make sure, like, somebody did a spray
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: paint some lead or something, you know?
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Like, is this real gold?
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: Fight at the bar? Yeah, we're fighting the Matrix big
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: time here.
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: Legalize comedy!
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: I am become meme. What is it like inside your mind?
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, my mind is a storm.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: So... It's a storm. It's a storm. So he walked out, Dan.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: He's got sunglasses on indoors and a heavy gold chain,
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: and he's holding a chainsaw. I don't think he was okay.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: He seemed really, he seemed kind of fucked up. I
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: don't know if he was just a little punchy, a
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: little silly, but he wasn't making much sense. Something else
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: that happened while he's on stage, literally while he's walking
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: out with the chainsaw, there is a tweet from Grimes
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: replying to Elon saying, And it says Grimes is a
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: mother of some of his children. Please respond about our
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: child's medical crisis. I am sorry to do this publicly,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: but it is no longer acceptable to ignore the situation.
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: This requires immediate attention. If you don't want to talk
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: to me, can you please designate or hire someone who
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: can so that we can move?
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: That's heartbreaking.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Dark.
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: Dark. And this is now the second mother of his
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: children this week. that has reached out to him on
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: his platform. But this is what was happening while he
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: was out on stage talking about how he is meme
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: and we should legalize comedy and he's yelling and he's
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: talking about his mind and going to the, this whole
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: thing now that he and Trump have about going to
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Fort Knox to make sure the gold is there. What
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: the fuck is happening?
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: This is probably, I don't know who the right person
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: to direct this question is, but There's obviously some weird
• 47:41
  Speaker 3: right-wing conspiracy theory about this. You know what? I'll dig
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: into it before next pod. I will get the answers.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: Anyway, in case you were wondering who the enterprising journalist
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: that interviewed Elon Musk was, it was a Newsmax host.
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: Oh, of course.
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: Of course. Anyway, that's Elon at CPAC.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: When we get back from the break, you'll hear Dan's
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: interview with Andrew Weissman about Trump's attacks on the rule
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: of law. One quick thing before we do that. A
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: reminder that now through tomorrow, Saturday, February 22nd, you will
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: get 25% off new annual subscriptions to Friends of the Pod.
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: It's the best way to support the work we do here,
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: and you get access to special shows, ad-free episodes, our
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: Discord community, and more. If you're a monthly subscriber, upgrading
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: is quick and easy. Just visit cricket.com slash friends or
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: subscribe through the Pod Save America Apple feed. When we
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: come back, Andrew Weissman. Pod Save America is brought to
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: you by Z-Biotics Pre-Alcohol. Let's face it, after a night
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: with drinks, you don't bounce back the next day like
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: you used to. I certainly don't. I usually have to
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: make a choice. I can either have a great night
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: or a great next day. Until I discovered pre-alcohol. Z-Biotics
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Pre-Alcohol Probiotic Drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: It was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. this byproduct,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: not dehydration, that's to blame for your rough next day.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: Pre-alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: remember to make pre-alcohol your first drink of the night.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I got
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: another satisfied customer my friend Bob Bob he was at
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: a we were at a dinner party Saturday night and
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: I told him about z-biotics and he said really Mike
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: is this because there was some extra z-biotics floating around
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: really is this a real thing and the next day
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: he texted me he goes man you were right they
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: did it wow I'm fine Bob That's for you, Bob.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: With pre-alcohol, I can stay on track and not let
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: winter travel and celebrations throw me off course. I hate
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: when celebrations throw me off course. It can't be thrown
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: off by celebration. Not with everything that's going on. Go
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: to zbiotics.com slash crooked to learn more and get 15%
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: off your first order when you use crooked at checkout.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Zbiotics is backed with 100% money back guarantee. So if
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money. No
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: questions asked. Remember to head to zbiotics.com slash crooked and
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: use the code crooked at checkout. for 15% off.
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: Here to talk about all of the chaos happening at
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: the Department of Justice and the potential collapse of our
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: whole system of law and order is friend of the pod,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: Andrew Weissman, a former federal prosecutor, MSNBC legal contributor, and
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: host of the excellent podcast, Maine Justice from MSNBC. Andrew,
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: welcome back to the pod.
• 50:31
  Speaker 6: Yeah, we're going to do all of that in 10
• 50:33
  Speaker 6: minutes or less, the fall of Western democracy.
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: That's right. That's really the running theme of all of
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: our podcasts this last month here.
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: Arts as well.
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: All right, Andrew, let's start with the shakeups of the
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: Department of Justice. This week, Trump ordered the firing of
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: all the Biden-era U.S. attorneys, saying the department is too politicized.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: This has caused quite an outcry and levels of concern
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: from people out there. Is this normal? Is it concerning
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: to you? What do you think?
• 51:03
  Speaker 6: So of all the things that have gone on, the
• 51:06
  Speaker 6: all the actions of the FBI, the Eric Adams case,
• 51:10
  Speaker 6: the resignation of the chief of the criminal division in
• 51:14
  Speaker 6: the D.C.
• 51:14
  Speaker 5: U.S.
• 51:15
  Speaker 6: Attorney's Office, all of that, as well as the statements
• 51:19
  Speaker 6: being made by Emil Bove, and all of Pam Bondi's
• 51:24
  Speaker 6: sort of day one memos, at the bottom of the
• 51:27
  Speaker 6: list is asking the presidential appointed U.S. attorneys to resign.
• 51:36
  Speaker 6: So that is fairly standard. It's not standard the way
• 51:40
  Speaker 6: it's done. I mean, it's usually not sort of as abrupt,
• 51:45
  Speaker 6: and it's not talking about weaponization and politicization.
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: The U.S.
• 51:50
  Speaker 6: Attorneys typically do change over when there's a change in
• 51:57
  Speaker 6: party control. So that's the least of it in my book.
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: If I remember this correctly, when Obama came in in 2009,
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: and he did the same thing as other previous presidents
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: have done, he did leave in place the Bush-appointed North
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: Carolina U.S. attorney because that U.S. attorney was in the
• 52:13
  Speaker 3: midst of investigating Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards, and he
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: didn't want to seem like he was interfering with that.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: Are there any open cases or investigations here that could
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: be affected by these firings?
• 52:26
  Speaker 6: So the answer is yes, but we already have– We
• 52:31
  Speaker 6: have bigger problems.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 52:33
  Speaker 6: We have so many other things that are going on.
• 52:37
  Speaker 6: I mean, those kinds of wonderful norms. Let's just start
• 52:41
  Speaker 6: with President Obama brought in the new U.S.
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: Attorneys.
• 52:46
  Speaker 6: And what he told them is, I know that I
• 52:48
  Speaker 6: have nominated you and the Senate confirms you, but you
• 52:51
  Speaker 6: need to understand your allegiance is to the Constitution, not
• 52:56
  Speaker 6: to me.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: That is.
• 52:59
  Speaker 6: Which, of course, is like any fourth grader would understand
• 53:03
  Speaker 6: that that's the way it's supposed to work, except that
• 53:07
  Speaker 6: in the world we're in, that needs to be retaught
• 53:09
  Speaker 6: because that's the opposite of what Donald Trump, in my view, wants.
• 53:13
  Speaker 6: He wants it first to be, you are loyal to me.
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: Well, that's a great segue into the Eric Adams case.
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: I listened to your whole podcast on this, on Main Justice,
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: which was fabulous. and we could have a whole podcast
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: conversation about it, but could you at least explain, give
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: the short version to our listeners, what happened here and
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: why this was such an unusual decision and process from
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: the Department of Justice?
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 53:38
  Speaker 6: Mayor Adams is somebody who was charged during the Biden
• 53:42
  Speaker 6: administration with five felonies. He is a Democrat. And so
• 53:49
  Speaker 6: any sort of claim about politicization. It's a little weird
• 53:52
  Speaker 6: because it was a Biden administration that charged him. He
• 53:56
  Speaker 6: was charged about nine months before the primaries here in
• 54:00
  Speaker 6: New York City. This is what's unusual. The first sort
• 54:03
  Speaker 6: of way this blew up is that the acting US
• 54:07
  Speaker 6: attorney in the Southern District of New York that has
• 54:10
  Speaker 6: the case sent a letter to Pam Bondi saying, I
• 54:14
  Speaker 6: have been ordered to dismiss the case. And I've been
• 54:18
  Speaker 6: told to dismiss the case, not because there's a factual issue,
• 54:22
  Speaker 6: not because we've got the law wrong, but because this
• 54:28
  Speaker 6: is going to, among other things, interfere with Eric Adams'
• 54:33
  Speaker 6: ability to carry out the Trump administration immigration policies. And
• 54:38
  Speaker 6: that is a quid pro quo from her point of view,
• 54:42
  Speaker 6: using the criminal case to get somebody to do the
• 54:47
  Speaker 6: political bidding of the president. And to make sure that
• 54:51
  Speaker 6: he's doing that, she says, they want us to not
• 54:55
  Speaker 6: dismiss the case for good. And that could be achieved
• 54:59
  Speaker 6: also by the president pardoning Eric Adams, but they don't
• 55:02
  Speaker 6: want that. What they want to do is dismiss it
• 55:04
  Speaker 6: without prejudice so that it's dangling over his head like
• 55:09
  Speaker 6: a choke chain so that he has to do their bidding.
• 55:13
  Speaker 6: And in fact, he has done that. He then appeared
• 55:17
  Speaker 6: on Fox News saying that he would allow ICE agents
• 55:23
  Speaker 6: to come into the New York City to effectuate arrests
• 55:27
  Speaker 6: in locations.
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: That's against the law, right?
• 55:30
  Speaker 6: That's exactly right. So one point I made with Jen
• 55:34
  Speaker 6: Psaki is this. The current mayor of the city of
• 55:38
  Speaker 6: New York is under indictment federally currently with five felonies.
• 55:44
  Speaker 6: He is out on bail and he is on TV
• 55:47
  Speaker 6: saying ICE agents should come in and violate local law.
• 55:53
  Speaker 6: So that's the state we're in. A motion has been
• 55:55
  Speaker 6: made by the acting deputy attorney general to the judge
• 56:01
  Speaker 6: overseeing the case to do just what he had directed
• 56:06
  Speaker 6: the Southern District Prosecutor to do. The reason he had
• 56:10
  Speaker 6: to do it is, I think we're up to eight.
• 56:14
  Speaker 6: I might have my math wrong. I never do math
• 56:16
  Speaker 6: in public. So it's either seven or eight prosecutors, career people,
• 56:21
  Speaker 6: some with stellar sort of conservative credentials have resigned over this,
• 56:27
  Speaker 6: as they should, because the idea that you would use
• 56:30
  Speaker 6: the criminal law to do your political bidding is, imagine, Dan,
• 56:36
  Speaker 6: that the next step is, I'm going to ask a
• 56:40
  Speaker 6: Democratic congressperson, I'm going to say, you know what, I'm
• 56:45
  Speaker 6: willing to suspend your criminal case, but you're going to
• 56:48
  Speaker 6: vote with the Republicans during that time. And let's see
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: how your voting record goes and if you toe the line.
• 56:53
  Speaker 6: I mean, that is a quid pro quo also. Or
• 56:57
  Speaker 6: imagine that Eric Adams said to Emil Mbovi, I'm going
• 57:02
  Speaker 6: to give you a bag of cash to do this.
• 57:05
  Speaker 6: I mean, all of those things are why you're seeing
• 57:09
  Speaker 6: so many career people say, this is not the role
• 57:13
  Speaker 6: of the Justice Department. And just think about that awesome
• 57:16
  Speaker 6: power That would give the president and the Department of
• 57:20
  Speaker 6: Justice to actually bend people to their will on the
• 57:26
  Speaker 6: pain of being criminally prosecuted and going to jail.
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: There was a hearing in this case this week, as
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: you pointed out, that the deputy attorney general had to
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: make the argument himself because it appears like no one
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: else would do it. What recourse does the judge have here?
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: Could the judge deny the motion to dismiss? And if
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: that were to happen, who would prosecute the case? So
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: the law is extremely favorable to the government because prosecutorial
• 57:54
  Speaker 3: discretion is something that is recognized as almost uniquely an
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: executive branch function. And as you point out, Dan, if
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: the court were to say you have to go forward,
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: the Southern District of New York or now the public
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: integrity section, because the case was moved from the Southern
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: District to the public integrity section by the Deputy Attorney General. Where,
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: by the way, he moved it and what happened was
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: prosecutors resigned in the Southern District, he moved it to
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: the Public Integrity Section, the Public Integrity Section of people
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: resigned because people are like, I didn't sign up for this.
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: So what can the judge do? He has a narrow
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: ability to say I'm denying the motion. And if necessary,
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: he could appoint somebody to go forward. He could decide
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: that he's going to have the case dismissed, but with prejudice,
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: not without prejudice, so that there isn't this sort of
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: Damocles or choke chain component to it. He could hold
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: a factual hearing. That's what I would do.
• 59:00
  Speaker 6: Because you need to know, is there a quid pro
• 59:04
  Speaker 6: quo and what's the nature of it? And make people
• 59:07
  Speaker 6: have to testify under oath. One of the little tid
• 59:10
  Speaker 6: that I want to make sure people understand is Danielle Sassoon,
• 59:13
  Speaker 6: the Southern District acting U.S. attorney who resigned, noted in
• 59:19
  Speaker 6: her letter that when they had a meeting with the
• 59:22
  Speaker 6: acting deputy attorney general, the former Trump criminal defense lawyer
• 59:27
  Speaker 6: a New York minute.
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: Ago, that.
• 59:30
  Speaker 6: He ordered her people to stop taking notes and then
• 59:33
  Speaker 6: confiscated them. And the acting deputy attorney general has not
• 59:40
  Speaker 6: denied that. He has admitted that he did it, but
• 59:43
  Speaker 6: he says he did it to prevent leaks. That is
• 59:48
  Speaker 6: not facially plausible to me that that's the reason, because
• 59:51
  Speaker 6: you know how you can't prevent leaks by taking notes.
• 59:55
  Speaker 6: People can leak without having notes of their conversation. All
• 59:59
  Speaker 6: it does do is eliminate the written record so that
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 6: you can lie about what happened.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: If such a factual hearing took place, could the judge
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: demand those notes?
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: Presuming they haven't found the bottom of a paper shredder
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: somewhere in main justice? So the answer is, yes, he
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 3: can demand the notes. And if they have been destroyed,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: that is, one, it can be used by the judge to,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: as evidence, that they would have been favorable to Danielle
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: Sassoon's position that there was a quid pro quo. I mean,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: to me, you don't have to be a lawyer to
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: understand that. If you confiscate the notes and shred them,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: you're entitled to draw inferences from the fact that you
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: did that. If they were helpful for you, you don't
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: destroy them. Right, right. You put them in a safe somewhere.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 6: So the other thing he could do is something that
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 6: Emmett Sullivan did in the Michael Flynn case, So that
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 6: is in Trump 1.0, where remarkably, this is like the
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 6: only other time I've ever heard anything like this happening.
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 6: And I was a prosecutor for 21 years. The only
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 6: other time I can think of a situation like this
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 6: is from Trump 1.0. Of course. And there, what the
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 6: judge did is he appointed somebody to represent the public interest.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 6: He said, you know, I've got the government and the
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 6: defense aligned here. But they may not be presenting everything
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 6: because I have Danielle Sassoon's letter saying that's not what
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 6: happened here. So Emmett Sullivan was in that situation and
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 6: he appointed a former judge, John Gleeson, to represent and
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 6: advocate with respect to the law and what else the
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 6: judge should consider. It doesn't mean the judge had to
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 6: agree with what that amicus said, but it was important
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 6: to have another voice at the table who when the
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 6: whole idea is that there's a collusion between the government
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 6: and the defense at issue.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: Last question on this. I'm sort of obsessed with it,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: so I've gone a long time on it, but could
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: a local prosecutor, maybe Alvin Bragg, take up this case?
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 6: Absolutely. So this is like music to my ears, because
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 6: I wrote a short piece for just security. Can I
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 6: just give a big plug? Because even though I'm on
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 6: the board there, the people who do the day-to-day work
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 6: are so great. Trust Security is affiliated with NYU Law
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 6: School where I teach. It's just a great place for independent,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 6: smart analysis. It's also got a litigation tracker. So if
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 6: you're trying to keep track of the, I think we're
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 6: up to 80 cases that have been filed since January
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 6: 20th with respect to the actions of this administration, you
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 6: can sort of see it there. But I did a
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 6: short piece pointing out that Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan District Attorney,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 6: has definitely has the legal authority to do this. And
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 6: he has the state crimes that are entirely comparable to
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 6: the federal crimes. And I sort of matched them up.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 6: And I think your listeners know that Alvin Bragg has
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 6: done this before, where he has stepped into the breach,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 6: obviously most famously with respect to the Donald Trump case
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 6: when the feds balked, but he did it in the
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 6: Steve Bannon case as well. Could he get access to–
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 6: I can't remember what happened in that case, whether the U.S.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 6: Attorney's Office shared the evidence that they had gained with
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 6: Alvin Bragg, but here I imagine the Pam Bondi term
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 6: of justice would not do that for Bragg this time around.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 6: I agree with you that if it has not happened already,
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 6: their position would be they would not want to do it.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 6: But– There is reason to think that it may have
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 6: happened already. We wouldn't know it because it would be
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 6: under seal. But the prior, when Danielle Sassoon was still,
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 6: you know, the acting U.S. attorney, she could have shared
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 6: that it is legal to do that under, just to
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 6: be nerdy, Federal Rule of Criminal Procedure 6 that governs
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 6: federal grand jury secrecy. There's a provision that permits the
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 6: federal government to share that information with.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 3: The state prosecutor.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 6: And so that may have happened. And it's worth remembering
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 6: that although it's not on the same charges, Alvin Bragg
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 6: has a case involving public corruption of a principal advisor
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 6: to Mayor Adams. So he's already in the mix. Now,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 6: it's not the same scheme. I just want to make
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 6: sure as people know, it's not apples to apples. But
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 6: all of that suggests to me if I were in
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 6: the in the Southern District of New York, I would
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 6: have been thinking about making sure that the evidence that
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 6: I've amassed lives somewhere independent of people who want to
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 6: engage in bad behavior. On a separate topic, the interim
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 6: US Attorney of Washington DC has been suggesting that he's
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 6: going to investigate and probe people who make threats. He
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 6: sent a letter to Senator Schumer about a comment Senator
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 6: Schumer made four years ago about Supreme Court justices. There's
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 6: been some contact with Congressman Robert Garcia's office. Just what
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 6: is your reaction to this? I know weaponization is a
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 6: real term that doesn't mean anything anymore after Trump's in charge,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 6: but this sort of weaponization of a U.S. attorney's office.
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 6: So can I just say with the word weaponization, that
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 6: is a real thing I don't want Donald Trump to
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 6: be able to co-opt it to say, no, you're doing it, no,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 6: I'm doing it.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 3: Facts matter.
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 6: And what we're seeing is the actual weaponization of the
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 6: Department of Justice. And so, you know, I'm big on,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 6: if you want to use a label, where are the
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 6: facts to support it? And that isn't something that they have.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 6: In my view, what Ed Barton is doing, I mean,
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 6: he's never been... as far as I know, has never
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 6: been a prosecutor. He's engaging in behavior that is completely thuggish.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 6: And this is one of those things where at some
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 6: point the worm will turn and he will not be
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 6: in that position. If he engages in behavior that is criminal,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 6: there are sanctions for that. If he engages in behavior
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 6: that violates professional norms. I know this seems small bore,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 6: but he can be sanctioned and actually disbarred. So one
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 6: of the things that I think there's already a bar
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 6: complaint against him is he is the acting U.S.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: Attorney.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 6: He previously was doing defense work and was actually the
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 6: counsel of record on January 6th cases for those defendants.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: There's nothing wrong with that.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 6: I mean, being a defense lawyer on controversial cases can
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 6: be a very noble thing. He did both at the
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 6: same time. He actually sought to dismiss cases where he
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 6: was the prosecutor and the defense. That is not allowed
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 6: in the legal profession.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: You've mentioned Daniel Sassoon and these members of the public
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 3: integrity section who have resigned. And resigning is a principal thing,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: but also maybe the other way of thinking about it
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: is the principal people keep leaving the department at a
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: time when it really needs principled people. You're a longtime
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: veteran of the Department of Justice. What do you think
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: they should be doing? What's the right thing to do here?
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: What's the best way? Is there a way to protect
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: the rule of law from within the department in the
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: situation they're in?
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 6: That's, that is a tough and great question. Here's, here's, um,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 6: so one, I think it's a very individualized decision about
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 6: sort of what you do, but at some point there
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 6: is no choice because you are being directed to do
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 6: something that you have determined, um, is either illegal, unethical,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 6: or just violates, you know, whatever principles you have and
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 6: you can't stomach. Um, for instance, I don't believe in
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 6: the death penalty. if somebody directed me and said, you
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 6: have to prosecute a death penalty case, I would either
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 6: say you have to fire me or I'm going to resign.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 6: I think that's sort of dancing on the head of
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 6: a pin about which way you do it, the arguments
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 6: either way. So at some point, if you're in that
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 6: position where you're directed to do something that you actually
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 6: have no choice, I mean, you can't go forward. You're
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 6: looking at yourself in the mirror. I think the harder
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 6: situation is purportedly when Amiel Bove was trying to find
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 6: somebody to do the evil deed of filing this motion,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 6: and he takes the Southern District of New York prosecutors off,
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 6: and then he goes to public integrity of all places.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 6: the public integrity section that is public corruption cases. And
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 6: he basically, on Zoom, is like putting them in a meeting,
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 6: and it's basically cough up somebody, or I mean, what
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 6: I understand is it's cough up somebody, or you're gone.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 6: That's sort of the message. And that's where there's, I think,
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 6: a healthy debate about what's the best way to deal
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 6: with that. Do you cough somebody up? Do you all resign?
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 6: I mean, I think there are pros and cons. What
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 6: ultimately happened was one person who was near retirement said,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 6: I'll sign it. And essentially, he then saves what I'll
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 6: call the good people because they don't then all get fired.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 6: And so that is a positive. And if you look
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 6: at the actual filing that he signed, it's really interesting
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 6: because the attorney who signed it did not make any
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 6: factual representations that were false. Everything was the acting deputy
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 6: attorney general has determined the following. The acting deputy attorney
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 6: general believes this. The acting deputy attorney general has directed X.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 6: So the person put their name on it, but was
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 6: not going to represent anything as being true or his
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 6: own beliefs. And one other point, when this actually went
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 6: to court, you've noted that only Emil Bove came. And
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 6: I think there's a reason for that, because if the
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 6: other lawyer had shown up, And this is essentially what
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 6: happened in the Roger Stone case when the same similar
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 6: situation happened and career prosecutors withdrew from the case. If
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 6: you have that person show up, that would have given
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 6: Judge Howe the ability to say.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 3: Tell me what happened. What happened?
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 6: Why are you here? Why did you sign it? What's
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 6: going on? And all of the facts about what happened
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 6: and what Emile Bove had said to the group of
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 6: public integrity people would have spilled out on the record.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 6: In some ways, Emil Blvd was smart to be the
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 6: person to stand up. But Dan, that's another thing that's
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 6: just so unusual. Not only is it completely unheard of
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 6: to see career people resign. Last time I can think
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 6: of it was Trump 1.0. And prior to that, of note,
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 6: it's the Saturday Night Massacre. But the Deputy Attorney General
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 6: does not go to court.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: Right. That's right. They're busy. Theoretically. He's been very busy, clearly.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: Last question for you. These are obviously very dangerous, scary
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: times for lots of people. The, you know, as you
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: point out, Trump is, and Ed Martin and Emil Bovins,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: who are weaponizing the Department of Justice, things are going
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 3: to get a lot scarier. Kash Patel was confirmed on
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: Thursday to be FBI director. There have been explicit threats
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: made to you. Steve Bannon suggests that you should go
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: to prison for a long time. How are you processing that?
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: What is your reaction to it? How are you thinking
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: about the personal risk for yourself?
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 6: Well, Um, I'm in very good company. Uh, there are
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 6: lots and lots of people, um, on that list. Uh,
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 6: I still, after all this time, I'm still an institutionalist
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 6: who believes that facts and law matter since I haven't
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 6: done anything wrong. Uh, it doesn't mean they can't make
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 6: my life and a lot of other people's lives, um,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 6: you know, hell and misery. But there are judges in
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 6: this country and there are juries in this country and
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 6: there are grand juries and there are trial juries. And
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 6: that so far is not, those institutions have not been undermined.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 6: It's a very sad state that we're sort of where
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 6: we are. But I tend to not try to not
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 6: sort of personalize it and just think about sort of
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 6: big picture where we are. And Just going back to
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 6: what we were talking about when you asked what should
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 6: career people do, I don't really have any other choice
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 6: because I'm not going to stop speaking what's on my
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 6: mind and saying what I think. And the day I
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 6: stop doing that, it's like I can't look at myself
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 6: in the mirror. And I don't think I deserve any
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 6: credit whatsoever for that. I think there are a ton
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 6: of people in this country who feel exactly the same way.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 3: Andrew Weissman, thank you so much for joining us. It's
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: always great to talk to you.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 6: It's great to talk to you.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 3: And everyone check out his podcast, Main Justice.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: That's our show for today. Lovett's going to be back
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: in the feed on Sunday with the one and only
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 1: Bill Maher. Talk to you then. Have a good weekend.
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: Bye, everyone.
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: If you want to listen to Pod Save America ad-free
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: or get access to our subscriber Discord and exclusive podcasts,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: consider joining our Friends of the Pod community at cricket.com
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: slash friends or subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America feed. Also, be sure to follow Pod
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, and YouTube for full episodes,
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: bonus content, and more. And before you hit that next button,
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: you can help boost this episode by leaving us a
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: review and by sharing it with friends and family. Pod
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: Save America is a Crooked Media production. Our producers are
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: David Toledo and Saul Rubin. Our associate producer is Farah Safari.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: Reid Cherlin is our executive editor, and Adrienne Hill is
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: our executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor is our sound engineer with audio
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: support from Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis. Madeline Herringer is
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroat is our
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: head of production. Naomi Sengel is our executive assistant. Thanks
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford,
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kiril Pelleviv,
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: and David Toles. Our production staff is proudly unionized with
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: the Writers Guild of America East.