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Young Mom 'VANISHES' on Cross Country Trip: Where is Katie? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A gorgeous young mom just
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  Speaker 1: thirty three, goes on a cross country trip. How do
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: you just disappear? Vanish into thin air? Her family keeping
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: up with her as she goes. But now the big
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: big question, where is Katie? But right now we have
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: a major clue. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: and on series XM one eleven. First of all, take
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: a listen to this.
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  Speaker 2: During the drive, Adam Availis, Katie Ferguson, and their girls
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  Speaker 2: draw the attention of Arkansas police. A slight drizzle trickles
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  Speaker 2: as the family sit in a parking lot at eleven am.
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  Speaker 2: A Truman, Arkansas police officer startles Katie as he approaches
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  Speaker 2: the car. Katie can be seen in the body cam
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  Speaker 2: footage folding baby clothes. A toddler climbs in the front
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: seat area between her parents. The officer asks how they
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  Speaker 2: are doing. Katie Ferguson tells the officer they are a
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  Speaker 2: bit tired. But when the officer asks to see some id,
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  Speaker 2: Katie says hers isn't a bag in the back. Adam
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  Speaker 2: Aveila starts asking questions did someone call the police on them?
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  Speaker 2: Is Arkansas and ID state? Avellis bristles at being asked
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  Speaker 2: for ID. He tells the officer they aren't doing anything wrong.
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  Speaker 1: And here comes the clue, just before Katie seemingly vanishes.
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  Speaker 1: And remember that the cop approaches them not because they
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  Speaker 1: did anything wrong, but because he sees the car part
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  Speaker 1: with the door open. So he walks over and there
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  Speaker 1: is Katie perfectly fine, the baby in the car, folding
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  Speaker 1: up baby clothes, and he's asking, Hey, what's going on?
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  Speaker 1: Why is your door open? And we have the bodycam footage.
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  Speaker 1: We can see her, we can hear her. I want
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  Speaker 1: you to see it and hear it with me. Take
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  Speaker 1: a listen.
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  Speaker 3: How you guys doing.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, you guys up to you.
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  Speaker 3: Say it again?
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  Speaker 2: Lean up and head over to Joe and Burl.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, well, I was just seeing the door open and
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  Speaker 4: looked suspicious, so I had to come check it out.
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  Speaker 4: So you guys at a wyoming Yeah, we're going.
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  Speaker 1: You want back?
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  Speaker 4: Do you guys have an idea or anything?
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  Speaker 3: Dark?
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  Speaker 1: Dark? Yeah. I can't tell you how many times when
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I was in the District Attorney's office, I'll be riding
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  Speaker 1: along to find a witness or whatever, and a cop
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  Speaker 1: will ask somebody for I D. And the first thing
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  Speaker 1: they say is why they don't just get out of
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  Speaker 1: the ID and show. And they always say why. And
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  Speaker 1: of course in America you can do that. You know,
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  Speaker 1: you go to Russia or China, we'll get clubbed. But
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  Speaker 1: here you say, why do you want my ID? And
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  Speaker 1: that's what he did. But as you can hear the
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  Speaker 1: children in the car playing, everything's fine. She's sitting in
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  Speaker 1: the front seat folding baby clothes. We see her, we
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  Speaker 1: hear her all as well. Listen to this.
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  Speaker 5: Say it again, Arkansas, I state, is it an?
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  Speaker 1: I just need to verify you.
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  Speaker 6: I don't think you're going.
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  Speaker 3: Okay. That's why I think.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I mean it is a suspicious vehicle in the
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  Speaker 4: parking lot, so or you go through. I was driving
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  Speaker 4: right here and I see you guys.
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  Speaker 3: So we have a one because's not if Arkansas isn't
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  Speaker 3: a monch?
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  Speaker 7: Do do you have your idea on you?
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  Speaker 3: I know your in law? What's your name? Katherine?
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  Speaker 4: Katherine, Catherine person Ferguson at a Wyoming.
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  Speaker 1: Well, he's right, this is her boyfriend talking. He's right
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  Speaker 1: joining me. Is Katie's mother? Amona Hartling and her brother
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  Speaker 1: who contacted us on Facebook about his missing sister, Alan Ferguson.
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  Speaker 1: But first of James shell Nutt, high profile lawyer out
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  Speaker 1: of Alabama twenty seven years metro major case including SWAT
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  Speaker 1: now the lead at the shell nut Law firm, James
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  Speaker 1: shell Nutt. Now remember we're not in l one krim law.
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  Speaker 1: Just give me a yes. Note. Under the usv. Terry,
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  Speaker 1: cops can stop and ask for ID if they see
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  Speaker 1: anything suspicious. And I'm telling you what, if they didn't
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  Speaker 1: ask for ID, we'd all be three inches up their
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  Speaker 1: tailpipe right now. Because you've got two children in the car.
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  Speaker 1: You've got a guy who doesn't want to show you
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  Speaker 1: his ID. You've got a woman who says, yeah, it's
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  Speaker 1: in the back in one of those bags. The cop
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  Speaker 1: is not going to go through the diaper bag looking
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  Speaker 1: for the ID. But when you have children in the car,
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  Speaker 1: you have to find out why are you pulled over?
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  Speaker 1: Who are these children? Are they your children? What's happening?
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  Speaker 1: There's nothing wrong with what the cop did.
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  Speaker 5: There's absolutely nothing wrong with what he did.
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  Speaker 8: They did exactly what he.
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  Speaker 4: Was supposed to do.
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  Speaker 5: He was investigating a suspicious situation, and he did exactly what.
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  Speaker 7: Protocol is probably followed. His policy followed the law.
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  Speaker 5: Absolutely nothing wrong with that, guys.
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  Speaker 1: We've got more body cam footage and it's not relevant
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  Speaker 1: really about their ID or why they were had the
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  Speaker 1: door open. They obviously were taking a breather from driving
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  Speaker 1: and folding clothes and getting the children situated. What I'm
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  Speaker 1: looking at is her her, That's all I care about her, Katie.
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  Speaker 1: What is her demeanor? Does she look like she's in
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  Speaker 1: any danger? Is there some problem? Uh, We've got one
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  Speaker 1: more little bit of body kim let's look at it.
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  Speaker 1: At a hotel.
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  Speaker 4: So you guys been here in German just one night,
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  Speaker 4: just passing through?
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  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 7: An officer came to the doll. What do you guys
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  Speaker 7: doing over in this area?
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  Speaker 4: I'm like tramplin this way you guys, family or.
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  Speaker 3: Alabama. I went with my family and then he came up,
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  Speaker 3: where's your family? And Jones?
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  Speaker 1: Girl?
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  Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, it's all the way like way
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  Speaker 4: down like towards Florida and stuff. And I took the
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  Speaker 4: girls for a while and we separated for a while,
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  Speaker 4: and then we came back together.
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  Speaker 3: So he drove down to see me and we say
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  Speaker 3: just get back together. And the girl so, yeah, this
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  Speaker 3: is just away from Cody.
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  Speaker 1: Wah o, Ben, I know, I don't worry all all right?
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  Speaker 1: All right? A cop says all right and walks away.
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  Speaker 1: And you know, I heard one thing. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: if you could hear it, but I have the transcription
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  Speaker 1: so it's easier for me to hear it. And I
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  Speaker 1: would always do that with jury's Whenever there's anything they're
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  Speaker 1: supposed to hear, like a tape recording, and there's not
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  Speaker 1: an audio visual or they can't see it, I always
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  Speaker 1: do a transcription so they can read it as they're
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  Speaker 1: hearing it. The cop says exactly, The boyfriend says it's
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  Speaker 1: away from Cody, and Katie Ferguson says, I don't want
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  Speaker 1: to be here. I find that really interesting, Okay, joining me,
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  Speaker 1: Mona Hertling. This is Katie's mud who has led in
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  Speaker 1: a sane, desperate search to find her daughter. Alan Ferguson
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  Speaker 1: is her brother who first alerted us to her disappearance.
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  Speaker 1: Miss Hartling, thank you for being with us. Did you
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  Speaker 1: know that your daughter was going on this trip with
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: the boyfriend and the children. Did you know they were
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  Speaker 1: heading across country I did. Why did they decide to
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  Speaker 1: take the trip.
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  Speaker 3: It's the cycle of abuse. We came down here to
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  Speaker 3: start afresh, meet and the babies and Katie to get
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  Speaker 3: away from Adam. We were in a safehouse in Powell, Wyoming,
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  Speaker 3: which is next to Cody. Once we left the safe house,
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  Speaker 3: we saw him everywhere we went in Cody, Wyoming. So
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  Speaker 3: we started fresh down here in Alabama. We were down
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  Speaker 3: here a few months and just the cycle of abuse
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  Speaker 3: is why I believe she reached out to Adam and
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: a three year old at the time. She was three,
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  Speaker 3: wanted to talk to daddy.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Got it. Wanted Daddy, I understand joining me an all
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  Speaker 1: Star panel in addition to Katie's mother and brother, Alan Ferguson,
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  Speaker 1: Katie's brother. When did she first realize Katie was missing?
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  Speaker 7: You know, we hadn't talked in about maybe a month
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  Speaker 7: or so, and my mom had called me basically saying,
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  Speaker 7: you know, I'm worried about your sister. We haven't heard
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  Speaker 7: from her, I continued, So I got on Instagram and
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  Speaker 7: Snapchat and that's how we normally talk, and so I
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  Speaker 7: kept messaging her over and over and over, message her
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  Speaker 7: on Facebook and tried to call her a thousand times
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  Speaker 7: and nothing happened. And eventually I was getting off work
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  Speaker 7: and I got a text from my mom that said
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  Speaker 7: I had to report Katie missing. And for some reason
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  Speaker 7: in my gut, right then, I just knew because Adam
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  Speaker 7: when I was over in back in Wyoming Adam and
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  Speaker 7: Katie's house. I have been privy to plenty of times
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  Speaker 7: where Adam had been screaming at Katie, and you know,
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  Speaker 7: he's told her many of times that, you know, he
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  Speaker 7: wanted to dispose of her and take the kids. And
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  Speaker 7: I would be there to stand up for and my
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  Speaker 7: mom would be there and it was just a cycle
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  Speaker 7: of the same thing over and over and I would
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  Speaker 7: tell her to leave. But during that moment when my
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  Speaker 7: mom texted me that, I just knew deep down that
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  Speaker 7: something was seriously wrong.
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  Speaker 1: Hold on just a second. I want to circle back
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  Speaker 1: to that moment when the cop approached their car in
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  Speaker 1: Arkansas and Truman, Arkansas, when he saw that car door open.
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  Speaker 1: We see her, we hear her, and everything is seemingly fine.
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  Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace joining me right now, a
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  Speaker 1: longtime colleague and who I consider a friend. Chris Adams
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  Speaker 1: also known as the Turtleman. He is a survival expert,
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  Speaker 1: and I believe this guy. As a matter of fact,
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  Speaker 1: I took the twins, my children down to see the Okefinoke,
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  Speaker 1: one of the biggest swamps in the world, and Chris Adams,
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  Speaker 1: I trusted him, and I got on the boat with
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  Speaker 1: him and the children and we went through this swamp
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  Speaker 1: and we hadn't been out there five minutes before we
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  Speaker 1: saw forty gators coming up from the water. That's how
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  Speaker 1: much I believe in this guy. Chris Adams aka Turtleman
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  Speaker 1: on Facebook, Wiregrass Ecological and Cultural Project on TikTok At, Georgia. Turtleman, Chris,
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  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us this terrain. You know,
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  Speaker 1: I don't know if this has ever happened to you,
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  Speaker 1: but I've had it happen with plenty, plenty of people.
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  Speaker 1: I can't even count them. They're in a car with
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  Speaker 1: their loved one and they get into an argument and
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  Speaker 1: children although they've changed my world. As I've told you, Chris,
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  Speaker 1: you put the children in the car, you're on a
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  Speaker 1: long trip. They're crying, they're playing, they're hungry. You get
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  Speaker 1: into a fight with the spouse or the partner and
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  Speaker 1: things escalate very often, somebody gets out and storms off.
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  Speaker 1: It happens. Did it happen here? Maybe it started that way.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know that. I've got a lot of theories
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  Speaker 1: on what happened, but I want to talk about the terrain.
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  Speaker 1: Was she pushed out of the car, was she forced
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  Speaker 1: out of the car? Did she get out of the
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  Speaker 1: car there? How could anyone survive at that time November
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  Speaker 1: in those conditions? What can you tell me? Would you
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  Speaker 1: have to be an expert like you or could a
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  Speaker 1: regular civilian go out and live?
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  Speaker 6: I think it all depends on the scenario itself and
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  Speaker 6: where they actually got out of the car. We know
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  Speaker 6: that she was last thing in Truman, Arkansas. But going
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  Speaker 6: from there I believe I heard mentioned possibly to Texarkana.
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  Speaker 1: They were going that way.
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  Speaker 6: Yes, very really tempary, and of course you've got pine bearings,
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  Speaker 6: You've got large stands of oak and oak savannah, grassland areas, hilly, rocky,
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  Speaker 6: and there are rivers and creeks that go through there.
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  Speaker 6: As with any environment, one has to be careful where
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  Speaker 6: they actually walk through to avoid stepping in a hole,
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  Speaker 6: twisting an ankle something like that. And depending on the terrain,
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  Speaker 6: whether it's easy or hard to navigate, will determine whether
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  Speaker 6: a person can survive their long term. And being that
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  Speaker 6: they were off of a major highway at some point
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  Speaker 6: or by way, normally you would be near some sort
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  Speaker 6: of civilization, people living there, housing, community farms. So it's
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  Speaker 6: not like we just think that she's out there in
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  Speaker 6: a wilderness area. Perhaps I don't think there's enough information
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  Speaker 6: circulating around for me to determine that myself.
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  Speaker 1: I agree, But certainly between Truman, Arkansas and takes her Kenna,
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  Speaker 1: there's a lot of wide open space.
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  Speaker 8: Oh absolutely, absolutely.
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  Speaker 1: Now it's not the swamp, of course, but the terrain
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  Speaker 1: you were describing. That's what I'm thinking about. Because best
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: case scenario right now, she stopped by the car. Do
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  Speaker 1: I think that happened? Probably not, because she would not
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: leave those children. If she left, she'd take them with her,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: unless she got into an argument, likely started by him,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: but got into an argument and she got out of
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: the car and he takes off before she could get
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: the children, or they get an argument, he puts her
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: out of the car, or hits her. I don't know.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: There's a million ways this could have gone down. Was
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: she injured when she got out of the car. Was
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: she dumped somewhere? But how long could he survive? She
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: hasn't turned up in anybody's home. Average Champs, Arkansas high
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: forties to seventies. Could she have survived? There's been no
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: report of her approaching someone's home, hospital, shelter, nothing, So
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: for all I know, she's in the wilderness. I don't
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: know where she is. She could be down a ravenge,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: she could be anywhere. How could she live?
• 15:50
  Speaker 6: Chris Adams, Well, this goes back to several cases I've
• 15:53
  Speaker 6: been on you with now and I always this may
• 15:56
  Speaker 6: sound like my go to line, but hypothermia is always
• 15:59
  Speaker 6: a real rich. It doesn't matter if it's eighty degrees
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  Speaker 6: outside or if it dips down into just above freezing temperatures.
• 16:07
  Speaker 6: If the body has moisture on it, if the air
• 16:10
  Speaker 6: has moisture in it and temperatures drop or your body
• 16:14
  Speaker 6: temperature drops, one can suffer from hypothermia. And as far
• 16:18
  Speaker 6: as foraging foods and things, most of the woodland trees
• 16:23
  Speaker 6: or have dropped their masks this time of year. There's
• 16:25
  Speaker 6: no acorns, there's nothing you can forage like that, And
• 16:29
  Speaker 6: most people who don't have that experience don't know to
• 16:32
  Speaker 6: look for those things. And that's just the reality of
• 16:35
  Speaker 6: the situation here.
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  Speaker 1: I'm looking at her in the car the last time
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  Speaker 1: she was seen a lot, and she's got on shorts
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  Speaker 1: and a T shirt.
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  Speaker 6: Not conducive for this type of terrain at all.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: And I think she's got on socks, socks, shorts and
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: a T shirt. And like you know, everybody that's got
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: children in the car, the car is a jumble. Nobody
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: knows where anything is. It's a big confusion. They're in
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  Speaker 1: the back seat, playing and crying and trying to get
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: into the front seat, like everybody's car when you have
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: children in the back seat. I'm just trying to figure out,
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Chris Adams, how she could make it again to Mota Heartling.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: This is Katie Catherine Ferguson aka Katie's mother. When was
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: the last time you actually spoke to her verbally?
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: It was like the fifth, sixth of September.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: We know that Katie is alive and well. October five,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: October five, they're in Truman, Arkansas. We see her, she's fine,
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: she's speaking to cops. How did we get here? How
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: are these two who obviously have a very volatile relationship.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: How are they in the car with children going across country?
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut four.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: For eight years, Katie Ferguson and Adam Avelas had an
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: on again, off again relationship living in Wyomi. This year,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: two daughters, both under five years old, Katie and Adam separate.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Adam stays in Cody, Wyoming. Katie and the girls move
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: in with Ferguson's mother, Mana Hartling and Dothan, Alabama. After
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: spending the summer with her mother, Katie Ferguson wants the
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: girls to have time with her dad. Katie Ferguson tells
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: her family Adam has really grown up. During their four
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: month separation, Adam starts the round trip drive from Wyomi
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: to pick up Katie.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: And the girls. That is how these two end up
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: in the car together. He Adam Avilis, decides to go
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: at her request to get Katie and the girls, and
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: he starts to round trip drive from Wyoming to pick
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: them up. That is how they end up in the
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: car together. It's eerily reminiscent of another case. I thank
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: you all are familiar with the case of Gabby Bettito.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut twenty one.
• 19:00
  Speaker 9: Let's going all right, good, Hey, we got a call
• 19:03
  Speaker 9: about a male hitting a female and the two of
• 19:05
  Speaker 9: them getting this vehicle and take it off, all right.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: I just I don't want to trying to find myself
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: by saying here.
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: But I pushed her away, so she gets really worked up,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: and when she does, she swings and shut herself on
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: her hand.
• 19:16
  Speaker 7: So I was just trying to make her away.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: But talking about gus.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Ah and more and twenty four, I wanted to.
• 19:26
  Speaker 9: Exc yeah, is there something on your cheek here? Looks
• 19:31
  Speaker 9: like did you get did you get hit in the face?
• 19:35
  Speaker 9: Kind of looks like something like hitting you in the face?
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: All right?
• 19:38
  Speaker 9: Then over on your arm, your shoulder right here, there's
• 19:41
  Speaker 9: that's new on have a new mark?
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't know.
• 19:45
  Speaker 9: I see the other side of your face.
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: So what happened here? And here?
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure this is.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Trying to get her back on the car.
• 20:01
  Speaker 9: So the backpack gotcha.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: I just wonder if that Truman, Arkansas cop suspected abuse.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: He spoke to both of them. He looked in the car,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: He asked for ID, He asked her, is everything okay?
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: What's happening where you're from? Where you're going, But there
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: was nothing he could hang his hat on. And Gabby
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Petito there was two witnesses had seen Brian Laundry beating
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: her in the face. You heard earlier our friend Chris
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: Adams Turtleman talking about other cases we've worked on together.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: That's one of them. He was seen beating her in
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: the face. Yet they told him he had done nothing wrong.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Within ours Gabby was dead. Did this cop and Truman,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: Arkansas have a sixth sense? You'll see what I mean.
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: Takeolis nowur cuts seven crime online Rachel Wania.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: Four days after the police encounter in Truman, Arkansas, the
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Dodge Durango with Adam of Valis behind the wheel is
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: captured by a Texas DPS patrol camera. Two things are
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: noticeably different from the previous police encounter. Kati Ferguson is
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: not in the vehicle, and there's a projectile hole in
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: the front passenger side door concealed with tape. Bodycam footage
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: from Arkansas clearly shows there is no hole in the
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: passenger's side door. The front passenger seat of the car
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: has a pile of clothes on it. Two days later,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: Avellis is stopped again, this time by Colorado State Police.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: And just as in Texas, Adam of Vealis and the
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: two girls are present, but Katie Ferguson is missing.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Back to you, Chris Adams, it reminds me so much
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: of the Gabby Potato case. Remember Brian Laundry crosses the
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: country in Gabby's vehicle using her credit card and her
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: cell phone. I gets all the way back to Florida
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: to his mommy's house and then they go on a
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: camping trip with mommy, daddy, and sister. Or what nobody
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: knows is Gabby's not there. Everything's there, but Gabby. Is
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: that ringing a bell? Chris Adams. Remember when we just
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: went through the whole thing with Gabby.
• 22:16
  Speaker 6: The answers we need aren't coming forth. And what we
• 22:19
  Speaker 6: assume is that she went missing somewhere between Truman, Arkansas
• 22:24
  Speaker 6: and somewhere near the Texas line.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: So my question to you between Truman, Arkansas and the
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Texas line, what's the terrain.
• 22:30
  Speaker 6: The terrain, like I said, is very hilly. But what
• 22:33
  Speaker 6: I just was thinking about deer season is in in
• 22:36
  Speaker 6: the southern Arkansas's homes there are plenty of outdoorsmen out
• 22:40
  Speaker 6: of the woods. Any sign of something different. Any person
• 22:45
  Speaker 6: walking through the woods in those places near those major
• 22:48
  Speaker 6: highways would be on some sort of betrayal camera. There
• 22:52
  Speaker 6: will be some evidence left behind. There are thousands of
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: people in the woods right now in Arkansas, Texas, Oklahoma,
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: whole area. There's something amiss would be spotted very quickly.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: I think you're right about that. Chris Adams Nicole parton
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: joining me Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Nicole, thank
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: you for being with us. I got to make sense
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: of what I have just heard, what Chris has told me,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: but also what Rachel Bania is reporting. Four days after
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: the police encounter in Truman, Arkansas, Adam's Dodge Durango is
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: captured by the Texas Patrol camera. Two things very different. Now,
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: that could be a toll booth. That could be a
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: red light cam. It could be any number of cameras.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Two things very different. Number One, Katie is not in
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: the vehicle. The bodycam footage in Arkansas shows a very
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: different scenario. The front passenger seat has a pile of
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: clothes on it. The next time he's stopped in Colorado,
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: just like Texas, Adam, Avelis and the two girls are present,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: but no Katie. So she's not present in Texas on cam,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: she's not present in Colorado. So somewhere between Truman, Arkansas
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: and Texas she goes missing. Also important, what am I
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: hearing Nicole parton about a projectile hole in the front
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: passenger door concealed with tape?
• 24:41
  Speaker 5: Right, So we know in that October footage you've seen it,
• 24:45
  Speaker 5: I've seen it. There's no hole in the door. We
• 24:47
  Speaker 5: can see the door. And then the next time we
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: have any footage whatsoever, we can see there's a hole
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: in the passenger door and it's taped up.
• 24:57
  Speaker 3: Now we're being.
• 24:58
  Speaker 7: Told, so here's a hole.
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: Someone trying to conceal the hole and tape it up.
• 25:03
  Speaker 5: And then we also interesting, there's a large heap of
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: clothing covering the passenger seat. So now we know there's clothing,
• 25:12
  Speaker 5: we see that in the first footage, but now the
• 25:15
  Speaker 5: whole seat is piled high a heap, a pile of
• 25:18
  Speaker 5: clothing in that passenger seat. Is that to hide something
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: in the seat?
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know how many children do you have
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: in Okay, there's any number of reason that all the
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: children's clothes are piled in the front seat. Oh true,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: If you look to my mini van. Right now, you
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: would see the entire front passenger floor is full of
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: children's clothing. But there's more. I want you to hear this,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: and this is knocking me off my feet. Take a
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: listen again to Rachel Bonia.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: Adam Avelas and his two daughters arrive in Wyoming. They
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: move into his father's house. He has his two girls,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: but Katie Ferguson is not with them. After several days
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: of not hearing from Katie, her mother calls the Parks
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: County Sheriff Office in Wyoming and reports her daughter missing.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: The last known time Ferguson was seen was October fifth
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: in Arkansas. That was the same day the couple was
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: approached in the parking lot by police.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: The mona Heartling. This is Katie's mother and Alan Ferguson,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: her brother, who is beside. They're both beside themselves. In
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: contacted me on Facebook. Tell me what led you to
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: call police? What happened that made you contact them and
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: report her missing? I mean he shows up, he moves
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: into his dad's house with the children without her. Nobody
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: noticed she was gone.
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: No nobody, He didn't tell anybody that she was missing.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: He didn't contact the police. He didn't contact both her
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: sisters lived there in Cody, where he's at. He contacted
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: nobody Alan, so.
• 26:50
  Speaker 7: He didn't even report his The one year old spurns.
• 26:54
  Speaker 7: She had second and third degree burns on her and
• 26:57
  Speaker 7: he kept those heads so though he didn't have to
• 27:00
  Speaker 7: take her to the hospital or report it to the police.
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: When was that he kept the burn kid? When he
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: got back from his mother Stacey, she has the grand babies.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: They are safe. She's a wonderful grandmother. But when I
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: called and had the police involved right away, I also
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: said those kids need to be took away from him,
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: and they did within two days. They took the babies away.
• 27:26
  Speaker 7: Poor baby had burns all over her body.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: And the grandmother saw the burns right away. He had
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: kept them hidden from her with a coat.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: How did the baby get burns?
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: They asked the four year old and Harlowe, and she
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: said that every fell in the campfire.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: Campfire.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: Yes, they've been camping along the way.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, that's telling me a lot. And the baby, Everly
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: fell into the campfire. Everly is one daughter, Harlow is four.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: Is my understanding, Okay? That is changing things. Chris Adams
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: with me, survival expert that tells me as I suspected
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: that they actually camped out on this trip. I don't
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: know that that was intended. But the one year old
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: falls into the campfire, so they she is out there there.
• 28:22
  Speaker 6: Again, with lack of details, we don't know where out
• 28:25
  Speaker 6: there is. We can assume that it is somewhere off
• 28:28
  Speaker 6: of a major highway, but a national park, historic site,
• 28:32
  Speaker 6: state park, but we don't know which one, We don't
• 28:35
  Speaker 6: know what the terrain there was, and we simply don't
• 28:39
  Speaker 6: even begin to know where to look for them unless
• 28:41
  Speaker 6: anybody has an idea of where they stayed at Mona Hartlin.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: You've just heard from police and they tell you they've
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: got the phone records, right, Yes, that should tell us
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: where her phone last pinged. Have they told you that yet?
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: No. The detective was going over it with the.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: FBI also joining me. Renowned in his feel a former
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: detective Justin Boardman, Utah West Valley PD Special Victims Unit,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: now Boardman training and Consulting. You know what I don't
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: like Justin so many things, but the fact that he
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: shows up and doesn't tell Mona or Alan or anyone
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: in Katie's family. Hey, Katie didn't make the trip back nothing,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: he just shows up and moves in to his dad's house.
• 29:29
  Speaker 8: Yeah, that's that's absolutely correct that that bothers me as well.
• 29:35
  Speaker 8: But also what bothers me is a one year old
• 29:38
  Speaker 8: that has burned, especially if the one year old's not
• 29:42
  Speaker 8: able to walk yet. How did it end up in
• 29:45
  Speaker 8: a campfire? Was there a struggle?
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: Was there?
• 29:49
  Speaker 8: You know that sort of thing?
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Well along that line, justin, boardman, And you should know,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: with all the cases you've handled, if a child gets
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: burned at a campfire, you go at least to a
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: doc in the box, at the very least, you know,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: a little emergency clinic. So why would you choose not
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: to go to the er or the dock in a box?
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Why because you're hiding something exactly? Justin, Yeah, scientist, I'm
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: just thinking, and justin, please jump in whenever you have
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: a thought. You've seen these scenarios so many times. Also
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: joining me. Doctor Sherry Schwartz forensic psychologists specializing in victim advocacy.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: She's at panthermitigation dot com and on Twitter. She's at
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: trial doc at trial dot author of Criminal Behavior and
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: where Law in Psychology intersect doctor Sherry. I want you
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: to hear this. Take a listen to investigative reporter Jackie Howard.
• 30:50
  Speaker 10: Katie Ferguson missed her youngest daughter's first birthday. Family members
• 30:54
  Speaker 10: say she is not one to hide, and she wouldn't
• 30:57
  Speaker 10: willingly stop talking to family. But that's not what Adam
• 31:00
  Speaker 10: Avelez is telling police. Speaking to cops November eighth, he
• 31:04
  Speaker 10: reportedly told officers that Katie was not missing, but she
• 31:08
  Speaker 10: just does not want contact with her mother. And there's
• 31:12
  Speaker 10: more being said. The Cowboys. State Daily reports during an
• 31:15
  Speaker 10: interview with the children, one of the girls tells investigators
• 31:18
  Speaker 10: that the father accidentally hurt her mother.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: You know, that's reminding me of doctor Sherry Schwartz, and
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: we've discussed this together before. The case of Susan Powell.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: Josh Powell wakes up his little boys, I think, ages
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: two and four, and takes the whole family on a
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: camping trip at midnight in the snow. When they were
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: later asked about where's mommy, one of them draws a
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: picture with mommy in the car trunk, and the other
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: tells investigators Mommy's in the crystal minds. Okay, now we've
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: got a child stating Daddy accidentally hurt mommy. So how
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: does child know how to say accidentally hurt? I'm just
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: very curious, Doctor Sherry Schwartz, Right.
• 32:13
  Speaker 5: Well, my educated guess is that daddy said it was
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: an accident, and if anybody asked, it was an accident,
• 32:22
  Speaker 5: Daddy didn't mean to do it right, And at four
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: years old, you are completely at the mercy of the
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: adults around you, particularly if daddy is scary and does
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: scary things. Right, So, if daddy says this is what happened,
• 32:42
  Speaker 5: that's what you're going to say, happen. I don't think
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: the child's lying. I think the child believes daddy because
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: this is her daddy, and why would he lie to her?
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Just like daddy Josh Powell said, Mommy's in the crystal minds,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: you know. I just want to be very clear from
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: everything I know about this family and about Katie, there's
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: no way she would have left her children. No way.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: She's left her children before, one time for a couple
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: of weeks with her mother. Her mother and joining me
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: right now is Katie's mother and brother, and they are
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: asking and I am asking for your help in finding Katie.
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: The tip line is three zero seven five two seven
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: eight seven one zero repeat three zero seven five two
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: seven eight seven one zero. And I want to go
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: back to Katie's mother, Mona Hartling and her brother Alan Ferguson. Mona,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: has she ever missed the children's birthdays?
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: No? Never, and everly this was her first birthday. She
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: would never miss a birthday. She would never walk away
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: like this.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: That was her first birthday.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Has she ever abandoned the children before? Ever?
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: No, she does not. She's a good mom. All she
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: ever wanted to be was a mother. That's all she
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: ever wanted to be. Those babies are her heart.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: I want to hear about how all she wanted to
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: be was a mother.
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: That's all she wanted to be. She looked forward to it.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Is that why she got back with Avila? Because the
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: babies wanted daddy. They want to talk to daddy.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: I believe so. The youngest never even met her father.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: We had the baby since Katie was with me, and
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: we were in the safe house when the baby was born.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Why were you in a safe house because of him?
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Why what did he do to make you go into
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: hiding in a safe house with Katie?
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: The abuse got too bad.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: What abuse?
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: It was physical and mental.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: When you say physical, what exactly do you mean?
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: He had jumped on her, choked her out when she
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: was pregnant, left marks on her arms, big big bruises.
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: She would never report it?
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: Why did you not reported?
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: I believe fear.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: The abuse cycle where you want it to be like
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: the Hallmark card, and you believe it to be and
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: you want the man, and typically it is the man
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: to be the person you thought you married or you
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: thought you had children with, and you believe it so
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: much you're ready to stake everything on it, including your life.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: You mean that cycle?
• 35:25
  Speaker 7: It takes up to seven times for an abuse victim
• 35:29
  Speaker 7: to finally leave their abuser, and sometimes that doesn't even happen.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace, Doctor Sherry Schwartz.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: How is it?
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: And I've not only prosecuted domestic homicides and aggravated assaults
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: more than I can count. I worked at the Batter
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Women's Center for nine years on the hotline, Doctor Sherry Schwartz,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: How is it that we particularly women, have this in
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: our heads so strongly and we want that nuclear family
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: to be perfect that we are willing to suspend disbelief
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: and continue in an abusive relationship. How does this happen?
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: Well, there's a number of reasons. I mean, there's a
• 36:26
  Speaker 5: very complex concept that I'll make very simple called the
• 36:30
  Speaker 5: trauma bond. And basically, when it's really good the relationship,
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: it's the best ever, right, and all of your positive
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: emotions and positive hormones are flowing. And when it's really bad,
• 36:43
  Speaker 5: it's bad, but you know that that is followed up
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: by the really good, and so the really good positively
• 36:50
  Speaker 5: reinforces the bad because you know the good is coming.
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: But there's other factors as well. I mean, one of
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: the most basic is you love this person, You want
• 36:59
  Speaker 5: to leave the best of them. You want your children
• 37:02
  Speaker 5: to have their father, their other parent in their life.
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: You may have money issues, so you can't leave that person.
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: So there are so many factors, and Alan is absolutely
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: correct it takes five to seven times. And when a
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: victim is trying to leave their abuser, as you know
• 37:20
  Speaker 5: Nancy as a prosecutor, that is the most dangerous time
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: for them.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: And I heard Mona Hartlaning her mother say that he
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: quote choked her out when she was pregnant. The number
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: one cause of death of pregnant women, and I couldn't
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: believe this when I heard it. I had to look
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: it up. In New England Journal of Medicine is homicide.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Number one cause of death of pregnant women is homicide.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: I thought it would be a stroke or a heart attack,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: or something to do with the pregnancy itself. No, it's not,
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: and I couldn't believe it until I looked it up myself. Well,
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: the very best of the relationship and the very worst
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: of the relationship. Take ust an hour cut eleven, Sydney's
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Summer Crime Online.
• 38:09
  Speaker 11: On November fourth, someone reports Adam Avila's Dodge Durango as
• 38:14
  Speaker 11: abandoned in Park County. Deputies investigate and find not only
• 38:18
  Speaker 11: has the front passenger seat been removed, there is a
• 38:21
  Speaker 11: projectile hole through the passenger door. Officers find a loaded glock,
• 38:25
  Speaker 11: forty five pistol magazine, and Clorox wipes. They say the
• 38:28
  Speaker 11: car smells.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Of putrefied blood.
• 38:31
  Speaker 11: As deputies are still investigating, adam Avila's walks up to
• 38:34
  Speaker 11: the car with a gas can, telling deputies the Durango
• 38:37
  Speaker 11: ran out of gas and was inoperable.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Nicole parton Do I understand this correctly? A projectile hole
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: through the passenger door, a loaded glot, forty five pistol
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: mag and Clorox wipes, and the car smells, according to police,
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: like putrified blood.
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: Right, that's correct. And the front passenger seat is missing.
• 39:01
  Speaker 5: The seat's not even in the truck anymore.
• 39:03
  Speaker 7: It's missing.
• 39:04
  Speaker 5: Also, it's reported that there were clothes and rags that
• 39:08
  Speaker 5: were covered in blood and a lot of cleaning supplies
• 39:11
  Speaker 5: in the back of the truck.
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: It is hearkening back. It harkens me back to the
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: case of missing mom of five from Connecticut, Jennifer Dulos,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: when cops finally get a hold of the car that
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: her husband, Photus Dulos had borrowed, the back seat had
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: been removed and replaced with a different type of back seat.
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: Let me go now to mom Mona Hartling and brother
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Alan Ferguson. Alan, what do you think has happened?
• 39:46
  Speaker 7: I want to go first, Mommer, doin me to help
• 39:49
  Speaker 7: you go ahead. I truly believe that he has done
• 39:58
  Speaker 7: something to her. With the evidence they have so far,
• 40:03
  Speaker 7: and we know the blood it's came back as human blood.
• 40:06
  Speaker 7: We don't have the DNA test back, but we do
• 40:09
  Speaker 7: know it's human blood. I just me and my sister
• 40:12
  Speaker 7: were very close. We me and Katie were raised by
• 40:18
  Speaker 7: my mother and my other two sisters were raised by
• 40:20
  Speaker 7: my father, and so we were just always very very close.
• 40:25
  Speaker 7: And I heard about it. I just knew that she
• 40:29
  Speaker 7: wasn't with us. It's not that I don't want to
• 40:31
  Speaker 7: give up hope or anything like that. It's just something
• 40:37
  Speaker 7: that you can feel. And then when the evidence came
• 40:40
  Speaker 7: out more and more, I do believe that he did
• 40:47
  Speaker 7: something with her. I believe the fire has something to
• 40:52
  Speaker 7: do with it. I believe that he possibly disposed of
• 40:56
  Speaker 7: her in some way.
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: I believe it was he disposed of her and water.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Why do you think that.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: Mother's got instincts and my son also is. And we've
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: had dreams. I know that sounds kind of ridiculous.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: It doesn't sound ridiculous to me at all.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: Dreams of her coming up out of a river bank,
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: not a sandy spot, a river bank and walking on
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: a dirt path and there's a campfire and she her
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: arms are open and she's just coming to me over
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: and over, Mom, Mom, and she's deceased, and there's like
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: moss in her hair, And yeah, I believe he did something.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: My son has also had dreams. I don't. She's not
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: with us any her.
• 41:54
  Speaker 7: Yeah, he's definitely she's I truly believe she's no longer
• 41:58
  Speaker 7: with us. I also want people just to know how
• 42:04
  Speaker 7: much of a beautiful person she was, and how goofy
• 42:08
  Speaker 7: she was, and how amazing and sweet and kind. Yes,
• 42:12
  Speaker 7: but you know, she's not just another domestic violence victim.
• 42:17
  Speaker 7: She was a real person, and she was such a beautiful,
• 42:21
  Speaker 7: kind person and just a just a really really amazing sister.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: She was a mother, she was a sister, she was
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: a daughter, she was an auntie. There's a hole inside
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: that will never be replaced. I want women to know
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: they can get out of it. I've been through it.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: You they can do out. There is hope. You just
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: have to make the step forward and leave.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: You are hearing Katie's mother, Mona Hartling and her brother
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: Alan Ferguson, and I agree with them. I think that
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: as they put it, Katie is no longer with us.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: But what we can do for them now is seek
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: justice by God. The tip line is three zero seven
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: five two seven eight seven one zero. Please help us
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: bring Katie home. Goodbye friend,