Latest / WIPTHENRIP / Episode 9 - Jessica Vollrath
Transcript
- Jessica Episode 9 Final Audio Correct : Forcing artists to have this like full-on dissertation on each painting is an insane, like what? It's like I was like that's like me asking Chopin what the nocturnes mean. Hi everyone, I'm Sydney. And I'm Ryan. And this is whip them rip. And for our ninth guest, we have Jessico Volrath, a Dallas based artist who currently has a show up at Aaron Clue titled The Smell of Rain on Dust, which is up until November seventh. If you want to support the podcast, like, share, subscribe to our channels, and share an episode with a friend, write a rating and a review. If you really want to support us, sign up for the Patreon at patreon.com slash whip, then rip. Stay tuned and see how our conversation goes. We both listened to a pod that you did, I think, a few years ago. And I don't think I realized that you grew up in a Mennonite community. My own relationship to that is like I am very agnostic. and that's been like a life project. Like I was raised as a little kid, Episcopalian, but sort of like real loose. And I feel like I've at one point when I was young, was like, I'm an atheist. And then got to a point where I realized, like, no, actually that's BS, I'm like solidly agnostic, meaning like I don't know. And it makes me so susceptible to things. But anyways, it's a long way of maybe starting at a really strange place, but I don't know. It made me curious, especially because that stuff is in your work. I don't consider myself religious anymore, but having the biblical framework is like a since a child is kind of the lens I see the world through. So it's like the The biblical archetypes and all of that. I know more Bible verses than pretty much anything else. Like I can't quote any movies from my childhood, but I can quote the Bible from front to back. So it's it's interesting. I like the lens that it gave me. It's an odd one though. You know? To sort through. Would you consider yourself spiritual? Yes. Okay. Yeah. And what's that difference for you? I think Spirituality for me is more of a way of experiencing the divine without a box. So I think religion creates a very rigid framework that this is who God is, it's a man, and this is his name, and these are his characteristics, and this is how you are allowed to talk to him. And I'm not a religion hater or anything like that. I think people find their way through many different places. And so if it resonates with someone, I love that. But that framework was never big enough for me. And I think being a creative, you have to question the boxes. You know, I think any creative, I mean, even if you're atheist and now you're agnostic, I think that's you questioning the box, right? So it's like as a creative, you have to say Is that an actual boundary or did we make it up? I phrased that question really clunkily, but it's I I think about like I had this moment with my mom when I was an adult and it was so interesting because she was really big on raising my sister and I to be free thinkers and she broke down a little bit one time because she was so upset that neither of us are religious. And it was such an interesting thing to watch her confront where it's like, I wanted you guys to think for yourselves, but not like that. For me, accepting that idea of agnosticism is definitely conscious. I think it is exactly what you're describing. It's like some sort of a rejection of all the boxes, but also not claiming to know that any of those boxes are untrue because I just how could I? How could we? I mean, that's just the world is far too different and we are far too different in our experiences to create such a small framework that everyone is supposed to be and that's doesn't make any sense to me. It doesn't resonate with my spirit. If it resonates with someone else, more power to Did your perspective start to change as you grew older or was it a moment that happened or something that shifted things for you? 'Cause I feel like that's kind of a big deal, you know, like growing up to be so religious and then taking that stance to consider yourself not to be anymore. Yes. Man, that's a wildly personal story. So I'll try to like skip it where I don't feel like I'm revealing myself. But basically, under religious frameworks, they hold you by a lot of fear. At least that's how I felt. So it's like, you don't sin because you want to go to heaven, because if you don't go to heaven, you're gonna go to hell. And there's so many rules, right? And so as I was getting older, I left home when I was nineteen, kind of ran away to do my own thing, and I started breaking the rules. And as I started breaking the rules, the punishment didn't happen. And I kept breaking the rules down to breaking all of them. And I started to question. Like I thought that if I broke this rule, this bad thing would happen to me. And it didn't. And so I'm living under all of this extreme guilt because I'm breaking all the rules. But yet there's this divine presence around me that I feel held by and loved by. And so I kept being like, my goodness, I'm breaking the rules, but like my li I'm not dead. Right. And my life is still working out. And so that made me start to question if the, you know, ca you know, you do this and this is gonna happen, if that was ever real, or if it was just parameters to keep me locked in. So it was a series of that over a lifetime. I would say it took about a decade or longer to truly be at peace. with what I was realizing about life and God and religion and it took a lot to let go of. It's it's a it's a very hard journey out, right? We kinda jumped right into the the deep stuff, but you're making me think about parenthood and about structures of morality and how it's like on the one hand, there is that sort of I was gonna say prisons, that feels too dramatic, but like kind of traps that can be set with religious frameworks. But then, you know, there is a version of it where it's understandable to some degree, like throughout the development of human history, right? That there are these structures. And I think part of what I go back and forth with all the time as a parent is building moral. structures and and teaching the right things without using that. You know, we've never raised our kids religious. And there was this moment where Kate was like, I think I want to raise them Catholic. And I was like, no. Like we're not doing that. and we, you know, have r raised them pretty agnostic. And it's like, it's interesting, you know, anyways. But where I'm going with that is as a mother, you know, what you were describing, it's like, I think, Different person might realize, like, the the punishment doesn't happen. So I can do anything. I can do whatever I want. And it feels sometimes like there's too much of that. So I just wonder how you hold on to that sense of morality. This is also fascinating. It feels way less like a art podcast and more like a religious discussion, which the two are very intertwined. So Yeah. Yeah. Man, I was talking about this with a friend the other day and we were talking about cheating in marriage. Mm-hmm. And just really getting down to the nitty-gritty, like, I think we're all capable of anything. And and she was kind of asking me, like, what what keeps what keeps you in it? You know? And I was like, I know it sounds terrible. I should say I just love my husband so much and that's why I don't cheat. But that's not the truth. I was like, I don't cheat because I love me. Because I made a promise to love someone in this way. And to break that to break my word is a sin against me. And so a lot of times when I'm when it comes to the question of morality, it to me it's not like I'm not gonna do this because I'm gonna be punished or I'm not gonna do this because it's more like I value my soul journey so highly, and whatever that means, I don't even know what it means, but I value that journey. That I don't want to sin against my own soul. And to me, sinning against my own soul would be consciously damaging another person. Mm-hmm. Cause I'm we're all connected. I can't sin against you without sinning against me. You know? And so I think that that seeing myself, seeing us as all connected and as part of a whole is what the only thing I need to keep from harming others because there's no way. I can cause harm to you without causing harm to me. And so while I could say it's this like it's the love of other that keeps me from no, it's the love of me of me. And I don't know if that works for everyone, right? It's about control, right? Where it's like if you're just choosing not to cheat because you feel controlled by the scenario that you're in with somebody else. It's not as deeply understood or authentic as if you of your own devices are saying, no, this would damage me. I think a lot about the relationship between viewer and artist. And I wonder if there's some sort of connection there too, where there's a giving and a taking, I guess, as an artist, right? And I wonder like how you think about putting a painting out into the world. And is that something that is ultimately returning to you? Or is it also this Copacetic sort of like I guess a gift that you're giving to both yourself and to another. So we can blend both of those two. So I'm thinking of like the golden rule, right? do unto do unto others as they would have them do unto you. Right. So it's always back to self. And then there's this the greatest the second greatest commandment in the Bible is love your neighbor as you love yourself. And so there is so much where there is no output that is authentic and pure if it's not truly from the soul. Right. And so when I paint, I paint for me. I don't ever paint for the viewer because I don't know who that is. Right. So I paint for me. And I'm hoping that that that love, that I'm experiencing, you know, to me it's a it's a circular, it's a conversation with the divine. For me, it's a conversation with the divine. So I'm hoping that that energetic exchange that I'm having between me and the divine is then broad enough to bring in the viewer. But I'm not painting for the viewer because like again, who is that? And how could I assume to understand what what it is that they want or what they could what they understand or it it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. And as soon as I If I ever get into that space of being like, What are people gonna think? I get into a really bad space. I think that idea of the muse or the, you know, it's not the same thing exactly, but it causes me to confront my own ideas when I do something like paint or draw and there is something else happening. I'm I whether that's the subconscious or it's something outside of me. So I feel like I do completely understand what you mean. And I think you're right that it's like the best you can hope for is that people feel something in what you're doing, right? And are drawn to it, but you can't control it. So our first G is gripes. So what's frustrating, broken, or irritating in art and culture right now for you? Well, the world needs to be different, period. Okay. Yeah. my goodness. Wow. That is such a loaded question. I've yeah, I'm just struggling really bad right now. I feel like everything's bad. I struggle with understanding why what I'm doing is important. man. Like someone said I was watching a video the other day and they were talking about how the world is sick and it's like running a fever. And that really resonated, right? I'm in Texas and it is we've writ hit record highs and it's so hot I can hardly think. In society, I wish we weren't all so sure of ourselves. What I see that really like never stops to like hurt me is watching people take a stance and just put their feet in and then demonize everyone else. Yeah. I think that is an insane way. to think. We're so sure of our rightness. And all right, I'm half Mexican and I'm half black. I was raised in a all white, super religious, conservative community. So when I when people talk about like far right Christian nationalists, I know those people. Right. They were my best friends. They were, you know, okay. So there's that perspective. But then there's also the a tension of being Mexican and Black. A lot of people don't realize that minorities don't like each other, right? So then I was raised being too dark for my Mexican family and I'm too white for black culture. Right. So there's all of this, all of this tension that I sit with and live with. And so I'm viewing the world from that lens of being like, this is all so insane. Like to create these silos In which we feel so right in our stance. So that to me is very damaging to listen to people speak and to be like, wow, you can't even imagine that there is someone that doesn't fit into that perfect paradigm that you're setting up. Like you're you're so sure that the world cannot be another way. So it's like when we think of like patriarchy, when we're thinking of Christian nationalism, when we're thinking any anything far left politics, anything we're thinking of, when it when when I hear these people speak and then there is the othering of everyone else, I just wish there was more ability to say, my experience has led me here, but I know that I haven't experienced everything. Yeah. So I'm open to hearing you help me understand why it is. that you feel the way you feel. I feel like if we could have more of those conversations in the hardest possible topics and places, maybe we could move the needle on this insanity that we're calling society right now. So it's just it's so hard to have those conversations. And I want to have those conversations. And I think being that I'm this multicultural entity conversation. I'm hungry for those conversations and I have the grace and the space to entertain them. So that I wish was different. Do you think it's art as well? So your background, your identity, but do you also because I I I feel like the way in which they're trying to, I think in the university, there's a lot of talk about, okay, what are these programs for? Right. And when you talk about an art program, everything you just described to me feels like what studying the arts is good for. and that's also why I think people are enemies of the arts, whether that's visual art or it's literature or what have you. And I'm wondering, you know, is that something that you just out of the womb were a fighter in that way, where you were like, or fighters not the right word. You're you're you're curious is what I think you're describing, is that you actually want to know. And I think that where I completely agree with you is that people seem so incurious, people seem so uninterested in actually understanding one another. And you're describing, I think, a feeling that I often have, which is like, how the fuck does anybody think we're gonna get anywhere? Like and it doesn't seem like anybody ever worries, even though, you know, the world is getting scarier and scarier. But anyways, yeah, I mean I'm curious if that's something like that you felt like was nurtured in you Or is it just completely natural in the sense that you arrive to this world curious? I think it was by force. I've never had the luxury of fitting in. So when you don't have the luxury of fitting in, you create a space around you that is extremely porous. Yeah. All of my I have a lot of siblings. I have eleven siblings. We're all like this. And so it's like I've I've I we've we were just talking about this recently and I've talked to a lot of people who have felt invisible or unseen. I have never felt invisible or unseen. I don't walk into any room and I'm like my husband's white, blonde hair, blue eyes. And when we got married, we used to go to restaurants together. He's from Wisconsin. And so when we went home as well, we'd walk into restaurants together and the restaurant turns. And he's like, Are you okay being stared at that much? And I'm like, I'm so used to it, I don't even see it anymore. So with that, you know, being this in an all-white church or this in an all-Mexican family reunion or this in an all-black family, you there is no world in which this is not it's such an odd place to stand. So I think when you know that everyone's watching and that you're so different and so other to everyone else, you learn how uncomfortable that feels and how to not do that to others. And so I think my curiosity is not because I'm naturally curious. It's because I know that that's what people need. You don't need me to look at you and be like, Ugh, white guy, I already I already know. Like don't That's not true. You're more than that. Right. Right. You are more than that. And I have learned that we are more. Everyone is so much more. And if I'm going to have a moment with you, I want to know what makes you more. Yeah. And so I think I'm giving to people what I w want given to me. Does that make sense? It it makes perfect sense. I I and you know, I do think maybe I'm wrong, but that it is perhaps unique, you know, because I think that there's a Or I should say more unique than maybe you realize. and what the hell do I know? But I just am thinking that I there is a lot of incentive for you to move through the world in a bitter way. A lot of reason to say, fuck everybody. And you know, so just to say like that's a quite beautiful place to land, given that kind of what sounds like constant scrutiny. Yeah. It's intense. I g I used to get this question as a child all the time, What are you? What are you? What are you? And that is a question I know me and all my siblings are very you we would walk into a room and they either think it you know, during nine eleven we actually got rocks thrown at us. we lived in a really rural Texas place and they would ston't we would go out and they would start because they thought we were Middle Eastern. Right. So there's this deep understanding of realizing how closed people are and how uninterested they are and actually knowing you as a human and how many boxes I could be pushed into and none of those boxes are correct. Right. So I'm like, I see it done to me so much that there's no way I could do that to other people. No way. Cause I'm like, we're all too complex. There's too much happening. You don't know if you walk into a room I was at a birthday party the other day and having a a kid's birthday party. And I realized that most of the people in the room met at a grief group. They were all young widows and widowers with children. Wow. And like I didn't know, but just from asking questions, I suddenly realized that I was around people who had known extreme and great grief. And it changed my whole experience in the room. I was like, what if I hadn't asked any questions? Yep. What if I had come in judging people, wondering why all these people didn't have spouses? You know? Yeah. It's crazy. A lot of what we talk about are art scene dynamics that are like this, that are at least for us in Austin, you can run across folks who are also semen curious. They seem what you described of like, I look at you, I know who you are, I've made up my mind already, what can you do for me? If it's nothing, you know, right done. And I'm curious if in Dallas you feel that. kind of thing. If that I mean, yeah, I guess you've already sort of said yes, but I I wonder when it's applied to the art world or art world art scene, is there more open-mindedness or do you find it to be pretty much the same? I think it's been an interesting Fourier getting out into the art world and being asked to speak about my work. And I can always tell what they're looking for by the questions that they ask. And I know where I am. As soon as you ask the question, I know what worldview you hold and what you want to hear from me. And I think for me, when we go back to gripes in the art world, this is me. I'm in a really hard personal growth place where it's like I know how to give people what they want. I'm really good with people, but I don't want to walk to the world giving people what they want. I want to walk to the world as myself. And that feels really uncomfortable. Even in the work even in the work I produce, it feels very uncomfortable. Talk about that more. Meaning that the subject matter, like and actually putting the things that feel I'll just say true, it feels hard to go there because people might react badly. Is that what you mean? It's not that people might react badly. It's I don't want to have to explain my work. Yes. Yep. And I probably that's how every artist feels, you know, it's just like Art is created in sp in a space where there's no words. And having to put words to it, I think does it a severe injustice. Because when people are like, What were you trying to say when you made this painting? And I was like, I was trying to say that. Like the painting was what I was trying to say. I said it. I said it. Well, what does this mean? What does this color mean? What you know, and I I think, you know, the work I'm kind of moving into feels very nonsensical to me. I'm having such a hard time with this current solo exhibition because Yeah. It's just like I'm working from an intuitive place and it's very nonsensical. I feel like it is. And I'm dreading having to try to explain this to people. Why did you do that? What does this mean? Why is this character there? Why and I'm like, I don't know what any of it means. I don't know anything. I'm painting what words can't say for me. Right. And that frustrates me about the art world too. Ha ha forcing artists to have this like full on dissertation on each painting is an insane, like what? It's like I was like, that's like me asking Chopin what the nocturnes mean. If I have to ask Chopin what the nocturnes mean, I don't understand the nocturnes. You know? And so I feel like that with painting. Like the painting is it's an energy outside of words and I shouldn't have to defend it. And so so I'm painting and I'm not thinking about defending it. And then I look at the painting and I'm like, my god, how am I gonna defend this? You know? Maybe you should just say, Well, I just wanted it to be this way, you know? I'm going to start saying that, Sydney. Yeah. Nick Yeah. It makes me think about, you know, Warhol's whole routine where that's sort of just like, I don't know. You know, he would say, I don't know all the time in interviews and I I I don't know that I I don't know that I understood that until recently. But yeah, it it it I feel like it's all in that same realm with the spiritual and once you try to put words to something that's in that arena, it begins to lose something. Our good stuff description here is what feels exciting, alive, or worth paying attention to right now. Other people. Yeah, watching other people create because I deeply understand what a courageous act that is to create in a time of uncertainty or fear or To play in a time of war. You know what I mean? That's a crazy thing. So whenever I'm too existential or in my own head, I look at an artist or I listen to music or I wanna know what creative people are doing because what I've come to realize is that creative people aren't actually we're not actually helping society run. You know, I was me and my sister, my sister My family's crazy, but we were watching the meteor shower the other day, like way out in the country. And we were driving home at like five AM in the morning and we're coming down Highway 75 from the north and going into Dallas. And the highways were packed and it was full of people, plumbers, AC people, and everyone was going to work. And I was like, my God, like I feel like I'm like in a drone, like migration. Like this is crazy. And then I started laughing. I was like, Mickey, I think we're actually pretty useless to society right now. We're not making society run at all. These are just hardworking people going to work, keeping society going. I was like, but I think I'm essential for the spiritual, the spirituality and culture of society. I'm not essential to make it run, but I'm essential for the intangible. Yeah. Right. And so when I think of artists I'm like, okay, what is the intangible thing that we're all reaching for? Like, show me what you see. Like, we're so useless. Not none of us are fixing ACs. None of us are unstopping toilet. None of us are doing anything that's actually affecting people's daily lives. You know? Yeah. Yeah. We're just out here overgrown children dancing in the streets and throwing around paint and singing songs. But why does that feel so important? And I feel like it's like, For me, it gives me a win it lifts me out of today, Monday, one three, and puts me into potentially fifty years from now, one hundred years from now, that we're singing to our children and we're painting for our children's children and we're we're creating for the society that we desperately want to be. And I find that to be so exciting and it gives me so much hope. When you were talking about the nonsense, it was making me think about, you know, Dada and And whoever, the surrealists, I guess, you know, d all sorts of different movements wherein people were thinking about like, what if absurdity is the point, right? What if it what if it is that we actually recognize that the world is a mystery, that it is actually a ridiculous idea that we're all here at all. And so if we're gonna be here, why not just be weird, have fun? Yeah. Why do why do we have to take it so seriously? You know? Right. And it feels so serious because it is so serious. And sometimes it hurts so bad. And you just gotta be like, but what if this is just ridiculous? Like what if we just write a song about this crazy moment or paint a painting about this insane feeling of what it means to be alive? It's as if you kind of gave me permission. on the restrictions that I put on myself and my brain whenever I'm creating. And so I don't know. I feel like you creating work that is so inspiring, like gives artists permission to get outside of the box. And I think like our jobs as mentors and teachers is actually like so important, you know? Cause we're we're inspiring the next generation of artists. And yeah. And then we have to keep asking the question. I have to keep asking the question, right? Because I spend like five to eight hours in my studio every day. And it's all I want to do. And I I get off, you know, my phone's off. I'm not on social media. No one can reach me. And I'm I'm I'm just bleeding and sweating and crying into these paintings, right? It's such an intense way to live life. And I have to continually ask myself why because I I get caught up and I'm like, why is this important? I don't know, but I know it is. I can't put words around why it is so important, but I I know that it is vital. I know it is. And so it's like so I keep doing it and I keep showing up for this ridiculous thing because I know that we need this ridiculous thing. You know, like we need this. We need to feel it. We need to see it. And I know that because I listen to a lot of music and I I ingest a lot of art myself and I read a lot of poetry and I And I know what that gives to me in the moment. Like my life can be transformed just by listening to a song. And so I'm like, because my life was transformed by that song, I know I have to make this painting. I I don't I'm hiding away in this really hot garage and I'm doing this thing, but it's because my life was saved by a song once. Or the world made sense because I read a poem. Or I found my dream as a child walking through a museum, you know? So it's like I battle with those two things all the time. Like, God, why is this important? Then I'm like, I know it's important. You know, a comparison is maybe love, right? That I think one could make the argument that love, well, reproduction, whatever, and and kind of boil it down to these basics. But when you really think about it, the pursuit of love is equally as ridiculous. And and I think that that Understanding that it's necessary and not only necessary, but one of the most necessary things feels like the closest category I can think of that that functions similarly. Have you ever shown your writings with your paintings in an exhibition? interesting. I have not. Because I honestly love your writings accompanying the paintings. I I just I just wanted to throw that out there because I was skimming through your Instagram posts and yeah I I really just love your writing. thank you. In my head I'm a great writer. One day. So it's like I it like there's a book in me somewhere. But I I write a lot, but for me. Right, right, right. Okay, so our next topic is ghosts. So influences, histories, and lingering presences shaping your current work. I would say the Bible influences my work a lot in its undercurrents and its archetypes. Like I said, it's one of the books I understand I shouldn't say understand. It's one of the books I'm most familiar with. So being a non Christian influenced by the Bible is a very interesting place to stand. And I think it's because those are the only stories I heard growing up and I've always envisioned them. You know, I've heard about them all my life and I've always kind of painted pictures of what these spiritual texts look like. And so when I paint There's always usually a verse somewhere in my head that's like floating around and I'm kind of painting that verse. most of my paintings previously were all Bible verse ty Bible verses that I paraphrased. And the newer ones, though the work I'm doing right now for the solo exhibition are not. So that that that's a major influence still kind of playing out in my head. And where is that solo exhibition? it's at Aaron Clooley Gallery in Dallas. and it opens October second. And to be honest, I'm absolutely terrified. Because of the amount of work or what is it? No, I just up until recently I've like I just painted like a maniac and then I had a solo exhibition and was able to pull like twelve paintings from this maniacal collection, you know? Yeah, yeah. Right. And I've used all those works and I'm painting for this show and it's been very intimidating because I'm leaving a language, I'm leaving a visual process, and I'm getting to a new one. Like I must, you know, but I don't know where I'm going. And I've been slinging a paintbrush blind and I feel so insecure. I wonder maybe this is too much to ask, especially after we were just saying putting things into words is annoying, but I'm one I'm wondering if you can kind of describe at all what that shit like like what the shift away and into looks like. Like what is it that feels just as an example, and I imagine this isn't it, but like is it suddenly like really thick imposto or is it really like like what is the sort of new confrontation? I feel very repetitive. And so I think if anyone's seen my work, they see like rot lots of repeating figures and There's lots of repetitive things. It's like a rhythm. It feels like rhythm. And so I'm leaning more into like I want repetitive things. I want things that I I could you know, there's not language around it right now for me. It's just just like I wanna do this thing over and over and over and over and over. Almost like a pattern. Yeah, but I'm still like really inspired by figures, but I'm not I don't want to do portraits. So I'm like and I love loose work, but I also like really tight sections. It's just I don't know what I'm doing. I'm a mess right now. Yeah. You can already tell it's gonna be awesome. my I don't know if that helps or hurts, but I can feel like I feel like those are the moments where I mean maybe it's gonna be the artist artist work or something, but I can tell just from a artist perspective it sounds Stepping stone to a place I'm going and I can feel it and it's it's a transitional point and it's very uncomfortable. Because I can paint a portrait. If someone was like, Give me a show of glorious women portraits done. I can do that. And it would be phenomenal. But that's not what I'm supposed to be doing. So it's like I'm leaving a comfortable space and I'm going into a space that's not comfortable. Is it kind of like this tree woman that that is has that I've seen on Instagram or is that completely off? No, no, it's like anthropomorphic like that's animals and humans. Yeah. Like integrating bodies into like Where the body becomes the environment where the body is the thing, where we are the the world and the world is us is a kind of situation. Yeah. No that it's gonna be awesome. I'm excited to see. Bless you. Bless you, my sister. Bless you. Yeah, I mean, before we leave ghosts, I am remembering, I don't know if this just feels like ancient history now, but I feel like you had a very specific training too. And I feeling compelled to kind of ask you to speak about that. Cause I think like you are so skilled and with some of those conceptual confrontations, the things that you have to do, like you just said, you can do them. Right. So it's like the fear isn't well, I don't want to speak for you, obviously, but it's like it sounds like the fear isn't I can't create the thing I want to create. It's more like, fuck, what Is being created. It's like the beast of the actual thing. Yeah. I look at these paintings and I'm like, so that's that's what you want it to fucking be? Okay. That's why it sounds awesome. Yeah. Cause I've it's not I'm like, I know how to make you make sense, but why aren't you making sense? Right. Because you really just want to be this weird thing. Okay. Whatever. I give up. Yeah. But that training, you had a particular mentor, is that right, in Dallas? That I did. Yeah. I did. So I was homeschooled all my life. I never went to high school. So I never had any formal art classes like that. And then when I was fifteen, I met a woman named her name is Dr. Marilyn Todd Daniels, and she is a religious painter now, but back in the day she was an esteemed equine artist. She painted winners, race horses. In in Florida? Very interesting. So she's an equine artist, classically trained. And then in her later years, when I met her, she was painting biblical narratives and I was super religious person at the time. So that really resonated with me. I met her when I was fifteen and then showed her my work and she was like, You're amazing. I would love to tutor you. And I was like, Okay. But I lived way out in the boonies in Texas, in the woods. Yeah. You know? And she happened to live In the town adjacent to me in a place called White Wright, Texas. I lived in a place called Tom Dean. And her studio was 15 minutes from my house, which is crazy. And I met her in Dallas. It was crazy. And so I became her studio assistant. And I would just come and I would clean her studio and wash her brushes and like and she taught me like a real studio practice. Like I didn't get art classes. She taught me a studio practice. And so I learned how to like Price work. I learned how to talk to clients. I learned how to host a studio opening. I and I was just a teenager. And because I was homeschooled, I had nowhere to be. So I literally just hung out in her studio my entire teenage years. And I would return to her over and over again. She helped me get into college. She was my first art professor in college. She wrote all my letters of recommendation. She believed in me because we weren't supposed to go to college. We were raised to be wives. And so having higher education, it was a no no. Don't do that. It makes you liberal. It absolutely does make you liberal. So yeah. So I went to college because of her. I went on to receive my master's degree because of her. Wow. and I I am who I am professionally because of her. She passed away in twenty twenty one. She wouldn't have gagged to see me know. She'd be so proud of me. But So yeah, she is my she's my hero. That's amazing. Do you feel like the universe kind of sent her your way? Like, do you feel that? 100%. Yeah. That's amazing. I feel like anytime I doubt the love of the universe, I remember her. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah. Wow. I was very loved. Yeah. I have been very loved. and when she passed away, she willed me. the contents of her studio. Wow. Wow. And I use all of her brushes, her paint, the paper, mostly all the work I've created in that since twenty twenty one have been using the supplies that she willed me. Well so I have an amazing studio because of her. Yeah. And it seems like that was when I mean not that you weren't doing well before that, but that's interesting too because it seems like since that time your career has really expanded. I don't know if you feel a connection between those two things or if we can just kinda let that sit. Yeah. No, on her deathbed, she blessed me. She looked me in the eye. And I was like, okay. Well, that's how you know that these paintings are gonna be good. girl. Sorry to sorry to throw it back that. good is not what we're going for. Let me just say this. Good is not what we're going for. I'm here for the journey. Yes. And whatever that is, it is. Yeah. gonna be great. That it will be a number for yes. I was thinking about you last night because I was painting and I knew we were gonna talk and I'm such a brute, you know, like I just destroy my brushes and I was I just thought to myself, I know Jessica takes care of Rush. No? No. I'm a trash monkey. You do not want to come to Messiah. That makes me feel so much better because I would assume that you were really Put a lot of care into the but I feel like when you want to get to the painting, it's like you gotta get to the painting. So like the brushes can wait. The brushes can wait. Indefinitely. Forever. Yeah. It's always a new brush. Okay. We kind of already touched on this, but guts is process risk and what it actually takes to make the work. Man. Well, I'll tell any artist because they're probably the only ones that are going to listen to this. That being an artist is so courageous. And I don't think people understand that. I think people think you're talented, you can paint, my God, you can make such pretty pictures. And then like, yay for you. Yep. But pretty much any artist I've spoken to, and I haven't spoken to a lot, so let's be real, I haven't spoken to all of us, but if you're really creating from a place that's like deep, you are revealing your internal externally. Like you're just turning yourself inside out. Right. And you're telling the world what you think, what you're afraid of, what makes you happy, what breaks your heart. And whether or not they read that in the paintings is a moot point. But you're saying it anyways. Right. And so I remember when I first started painting honestly, I asked my husband if people would be able to tell I was mentally ill. Because at the time I was dealing with really severe postpartum depression. And I was like, if I paint what's true. Will they think I'm crazy? And he's like, it doesn't matter, you know? And so I was always afraid of how people viewed me. I don't want to, I don't want you to think I'm crazy. I don't want to be this crazy artist. I don't want to be crazy. Right. And so for me, it's that constant showing up courageously in the studio to be like, it doesn't matter what comes out, paint what's true. Right. Right. And so I will say for any artist, like keep being courageous because my God, there's no other way to be in this world, you know? I think who was it? Lady artist, New Mexico painted the flowers. What's her name? Georgia O'Keefe. Yes. Did she say the same the painting? I've been scared every day of my life and I did it anyways. I've been terrified. That sounds right. Yeah. I really resonate with that. I've been absolutely terrified every day of my life and I've showed up anyways. Like it's never easy. So that's the the guts of it. Other than that, it's like my artistic practice is definitely spiritual ritual at this point. I show up And I orient my heart and I clear my brain and I usually like take a moment and I I'm not praying, but I bow and I just plant myself and I just clear my brain out. And some days are harder than others, you know. Right. Some days I really have to fight for that space because it has to be quiet. I don't paint from a noisy sp space. I paint from a very c quiet space, but it has to be quiet. And some days I'm not okay or I'm afraid or I'm w you know. I really have to center. And so the ritual of that is is very is I I'm very disciplined when it comes to that. Do those little strains of other feeling come out in the work, you think? So if there's Yeah. I know you you're working on things for well, how long do you typically work on a painting? I don't know. Sometimes I work on a painting and I get it like eighty percent there and then I'll abandon it for like six months. And a lot of the work in this show is abandoned paintings. That I'm finishing because I couldn't I I like would abandon it. And these are like relatively fine paintings. Like people have seen that be I'll buy just like that. And I'm like, okay, well, it's not about you buying it. It's about me taking it to its completion. Like, where does it want to be? Right. So most of this work is abandoned paintings that I'm finishing. So I guess in reality, these paintings have taken months. But I can finish a painting from start to finish in like a week. If I have a clear vision of where I'm going. Do you think that because they're abandoned paintings, that's making them harder? Because, you know, when you start a painting, it's like you're a version of yourself then. And then if six months pass, it's like, okay, what the hell was I thinking? What do you think is happening or what or do you think that's the struggle of getting through them? The struggle of getting through them is where I am internally. What I loved about the paintings that I'm working on are the figures still really resonate with me. What isn't resonating with me is the entire background. So I'm leaving the figures and I'm reworking the entire backgrounds. Interesting. Something about the backgrounds felt like predictable or played out or tired. I'm like, I feel like I've told this story before. It's like I've already told my origin story. I'm past the origin story now. We're supposed to be somewhere else. I don't know where we're at, but we're supposed to be somewhere else. Well, it's interesting because the background Yeah, it's making me think like it is a place, right? That you the figures are in. So yeah, you are sort of literally going or taking them to a new place, it sounds like I've left the place. I've cut some of them, like some of them were big paintings and I've cut them and made several different paintings off of them. I mean, it's fun. This is what I'm saying. As long as I'm having fun, that's all that matters, right? Okay, so our last category is what are the solutions you see or where do you see yourself in the future? And then we can also plug your show. I don't think there's a limit for what I'm reaching for. I want to go as far as I can possibly go. And I see myself on that journey in five years still. This is the path for me. And I don't know what success is because I feel successful. Cause success for me is a fact that I get to go home l after this and I get to work in my studio for the next five hours. And you know, like that I'm here. I'm successful. I feel very happy, but like I there are dreams that I still want to accomplish. And the art world is a very vast place. And the material side of me wants all that there is that that has to offer. Right. The spiritual side of me wants my soul to expand into more of where it's supposed to be. And I think those two things are linked in my future. So I just kind of stay focused on the path that gets me there. For me, I can't be I can't be too nothing matters. You know, I still have to hold to the business side of me and I can't be too like, okay, how do I scale? Well, that's that's inappropriate, but I say yes to the opportunities that come my way and then I make sure that what I'm doing in my practice is to the best of my ability and that I'm acting in integrity and Yeah, and and taking myself to my limits, whatever those are. To do something well, do it with integrity, and to have certain levels of financial success. It it feels like a bigger challenge than just, you know, rocketing toward some sort of material goal, right? 'Cause there's a way to do that, perhaps. But you would maybe have to throw certain things out the window. There's a way to do that. And and anyone who's on that path, that could be their path in life. But I think commercial success is not the goal. Right. I've always said I'm painting for the generations beyond me. Like I might not see I might not see what I become in my lifetime, but I want to be on the path of whatever that is. And I'm at peace with whatever that is because I'm not gonna stop what I'm doing. It's maybe a strange connection, but it's making me think about how people talk about activism. because They talk about, you know, one of the I don't know if it's a symptom or it's the problem, but one of the issues with the world and how screwed up it is right now is that we so rarely think about anyone other than our own generation and ourselves, and don't think down the line a few generations. Because the way you're describing it also doesn't sound narcissistic. Cause I think there can be this is something that's changed as I've gotten older, but I think about like with Van Gogh as the prime example. Where it's like, okay, Van Gogh got to be Van Gogh, but first he had to have this tortured life and die. Like that sucks for Van Gogh. That's not actually like he doesn't get any of that, you know, at least as best as best as we understand it. And I think when I was young, I really I was okay with that concept, right? Like I want to be somebody who's like remembered. And now, and maybe this is family, but it's like now that manifests more through children. And and you know, what do these things that I've done mean to them? And sure, if part of that's commercial success, that'd be great. But also the work itself, you know, what is that? What's passed down to them? Can't say that I'm answering that question, but it is what I think about. And I hate boiling everything down to like money, right? It's just like in our society, it's like you're successful depending on how much money you make. And I'm like, that's a crazy way to measure success. So I'm like Yeah. you can have a ton of money and live a miserable life. Right. My version of success is am I living in my purpose in joy and peace every day? And I do. I do. Like anytime I I start like wavering or being, you know, feeling insecure, I'm like, you're literally standing in your studio painting pictures that people are waiting to see. Yeah. This is all you this is what you dreamed of when you were a kid. This is what I wanted. I'm living the life I dreamed of. And so putting any kind of monetary figure on that feels like dirty. Yeah. Right? I want to make money. I love making money. Money's fun. But to to to measure my life in that in those terms feels not right. So I am successful and I'm hoping to still continue on the path of whatever success means for me because I'm my heart and soul in my life and this is what I'm here for. So I'm just gonna keep answering that call, you know? Yeah. I just saw somebody talking about how money itself is like language, that it or or it's intertwined with language and the naming of things. And so it's an interesting tie back to, you know, what you said about words and paintings or artistic expressions that it's like money in and of itself is this definition of something, right? It's like this is a symbol for, you know, a debt or a payment. And it has this kind of finality that a lot of what you're talking about actually being interested in making doesn't. That that's something that is more expansive and yeah. Exactly. We have a Such a lovely way of saying things, Ryan. I love it. Thank you. Well you you too. Also, what's the title of the show? Do you know yet? The smell of rain on dust, which is about it's about grief and the transmutation of grief. okay, go see it. Go see the show. Jessica, what do you have coming up? I have solo exhibition opening at Aaron Clooley Gallery on October third, and that is in Dallas in the design district. Super excited about that. And then nothing else until 2027. And when does Clulee Gallery show close? It closes. Hold please. It closes on November seventh. Okay. Okay. That's a good one. Yeah. All right. Well, listen, thank you so so much. And also for battling the technology. Thank thank you to Nicole again. Thanks, Nikki. So nice. This would not have happened without her. This would not have happened. Well, honestly, I feel like we I don't know, we got on so quickly, but I like we both love and admire your work so much and I think you are thank you. Super cool, obviously. and so I don't know. I'm like I wanna get out there. I need to get to Dallas and see the actual show. But just wanted to say thank you so much. I hope we can actually hang and have coffee or something. at some point. Yes. We keep running into each other. It's so fun. I know. Sydney was really nice meeting you. Yes, so nice meeting you too. Well, we'll let you go. We don't have time, but one sentence answer. Do you like Art Nouveau? Is that an inspiration? Yes. Cause I was thinking of all yes, I was thinking of the artist Muca or Alphonse. That did the like seasons. Yeah. Love him. I love Clint. I love I Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Cause when Sydney said that I I all had that, I was like, yeah, yes. But then I didn't know if it was actually consciously, yeah. Yes. I feel like that's a whole other conversation though. I know. No, that's fine. That's fine. We're just gonna say yes. Okay. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Thank you again so much. Thank you. We'll do part two someday about our new bow. Yeah. We'll talk more later. Yes. All right. Have a good bye guy. Bye. Look like a