Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / When Showing Up Is Dangerous with Rabbi Dana Sharon
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: welcome back to the Pluralist podcast from both sides of the ocean. Today we're going to talk about one of the most troubling issues that are happening these days in an already very troubling reality. The incredible rise in settler violence in the West Bank. Settler is not a new phenomenon, but in recent months we're seeing a dramatic rise in the number of incidents of violence and the number of casualties among Palestinians. Just since the war with Iran began the last three weeks, 11 Palestinians have been killed. In addition, entire communities have been driven out of their homes as a result of an intentional policy of setters backed by the government. This horrendous issue has hardly been spoken about in Israeli media, but it seems that maybe it is changing to some extent, at least when we're talking about public awareness, and we'll talk more about this today. Josh, to you. Josh Weinberg: Well, thank you. And I'm so glad that we're going to be joined by Rabbi Dana Sharon because this issue is really, I think, plaguing us and it seems to be only getting worse. from here in North America, people are really looking at and saying, you know, what is going on? How is it that this is not only, you know, not being prevented, but this is growing? And let me tell you, for those who care about Israel's image abroad, this is not helping. OK. When people talk about Zionism and people talk about wanting to love and support Israel, and they see ostensibly doing this in the name of Zionism, their of the land or ⁓ something like some perversion of that, it really is a huge, I'll be gentle and diplomatic and say this is huge turnoff. so Dana, thank you much for being with us. You are the head of the Rabbis Network at Rabbis for Human Rights. You were ordained by HUC's Israeli rabbinic program, making us colleagues here, and served as a congregational rabbi in the Reformed congregation of Gaderah, right? Keyelat Yuval. Of course, it should not be missed that you used to work at IRAC with Orly many years ago. And we all know, and maybe our listeners should know that you spend countless hours in the West Bank in Yehuda V Shomron Judea and Samaria whatever you want to call it. you know, really being a protective presence there and trying to raise a Jewish voice against the violence and against the expulsion. Dana, thank you so much for being with us. It's really an honor and a pleasure. Orly Erez Likhovski: I want to ask first about you, like from your personal ⁓ perspective as you as a reform rabbi, you chose to do this, right? To be actually in the field and to do specific work. And that's kind of unique, I think. ⁓ before we ⁓ dive deep into this issue and we'll talk about it soon, can you tell us a little bit about sort of the path that led you to what you're doing, like you personally. Dana Sharon: Of course, and of course I'm happy to talk about my personal path. I'm also happy to note, you know, when we're talking about Reform Rabbis in general, to note that so many of the leaders, lay leaders and professional leadership in for Rights are associated with the movement. Because I think our Reform movement, huge tradition and background with Tikkun Olam and these values is really coming through at Rabbis for Human Rights. ⁓ as well as this kind of project of which I think is very essential to the Reform Movement from the beginning, talking about universal humanistic values in Jewish language and looking within our sources those of connection. So I think this is really showing in Rabbis for Human Rights and I'm really... I'm really happy to say that about half our members Rabbits for Human Rights is a non-denominational organization, but yet half of our members roughly are HUC alumni. So me, that's really significant. That's something I take huge pride in because I think we really are putting our bodies where our mouths are. Josh Weinberg: and maybe. And maybe for a longer conversation, you know, maybe for another time, but the fact, the matter is that when you're talking about basic human rights, why is it that the liberal streams are so intent on that when to us, it's so clear from the Torah, you know, and from our sources, what should be said, but we can come back to that as we circle around. Dana Sharon: Right. That's right. That's a whole that's a whole PhD that someone should be writing. Maybe me when the kids, you know, get older. No, that's a very fascinating that's a that's very that's a that's a very serious conversation to have also kind of right. Why is it so obvious for Reform Rabbis that we are engaged in Orly Erez Likhovski: I only discussed, yeah. Josh Weinberg: I look forward to reading that, Dana. Thank you for... Orly Erez Likhovski: Hahaha Dana Sharon: let's say political causes, liberal causes, LGBTQIA plus is a great example. Also a great segue to my personal story because I always kind of end up saying I was an activist first and a rabbi second. And I've been working really hard. A huge part of my rabbinic path was to kind of understand how to make this cohesive identity and professional identity and Jewish identity with both of those things. And my biggest form of before becoming a rabbi, alongside I've always been very engaged in anti-occupation protests, but I was also a huge activist within the LGBTQIA plus community. I was the chairperson of the Jerusalem Open House for Pride and Tolerance. This is actually how I've met Rabbi Noa Sattath is the person who brought me into IRAC As we've mentioned, I worked, I was with with IRAC for six years, kind of doing taking that first path of being a professional activist, if we can call it that, and talking my values and ⁓ incorporating language. into talking about different values. And I'm super grateful for Noa and Orly taking a chance on a fairly person and kind of letting me really take the plunge into that world. But I think that's something that we've seen for years. My rabbinic thesis was about LGBTQIA plus liturgy. And I kind did a deep dive into the origin of Pride Shabbats, which are huge in the reform movement in Israel. And it was very that from a reform rabbi's perspective, was very obvious. was so much of a non-issue that we had LGBTQIA plus communities in congregations that the LGBTQIA plus ⁓ families stepped up and said, Hey, yeah, we were definitely tolerated, but we also want to be celebrated. And I think we've always in the reform movement, we've always celebrated diversity in a really big way. And we also have this deep perspective. perception of equality, be it front of the law, which Orly is promoting so fearlessly for so many years, or in the eyes of the divine. Yeah, we're all equal. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, but I think, Dana, you're sort of you painted really this amazing picture of the LGBTQ plus struggle, which, know, used to be like a huge struggle. But now it's sort of I mean, at least in the liberal world, it's like obvious. Right. And then you move to the sort of being a ⁓ rabbi and activist in the anti-occupation ⁓ which is ⁓ more problematic, ⁓ definitely in the Israeli society. And it's like, yeah. So maybe maybe, you know, tell us. ⁓ Dana Sharon: Right. much more rights, absolutely. And that's, yes, thank you so much for noting that. I think it's, I think it is fascinating. Again, someone's PhD, how Israeli society is not ⁓ just ignorance. It's not ignorance, you know, by default, it's ignorance design. It's not just willful ignorance. It's very deliberate, the deliberate ignorance and kind of almost the depoliticization of the occupation is fascinating. Someone can tell you something and I've heard people say this. ⁓ I'm not, I will not expose my political stance because I think it's very important that I will remain, you know, neutral. And then they you I live in Kfar Adumim Josh Weinberg: you Dana Sharon: Kfar Adumim is a settlement. And you see all of those people who is so political, the depoliticization of some of the settlement movement ⁓ boggling. The fact that you have children in the Israeli public system, not one that is either religious or the non-affiliated, say, education system. Orly Erez Likhovski: which is a political step anyway. Dana Sharon: Do not know the green border exists. Kerem Kayamat Leisrael, look, the green line exists. Yes, thank you. Look at the maps, get a Kerem Kayamat Leisrael map of Israel. It doesn't show the green border. the green line. It's, ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: the green line exists. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, the green line. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, and I think we could go into a conversation about the differentiation between different areas and what may be deemed as consensus. I don't have any fantasy that Ma'aleh Dumeem is going to be packed up and dismantled in any sort of agreement or Gush Etzion. But I want to, if you can, paint a picture of what's happening now. Dana Sharon: Right. ⁓ right. Josh Weinberg: these past few weeks and months. know that this is not a thing that just happened yesterday or just started. But for most of our listeners who may be tuning in now in the past few days, hearing uptick ⁓ you've on the ground. So maybe take us through and just give us a picture of what it like now. Dana Sharon: Thanks for ⁓ So what like what I do want to say when we do the macro when we do the wider inspection of things ⁓ worth noting ⁓ the judicial coup, then October ⁓ then Iran attacks. Each and every one of those notions ⁓ in Israeli also marks an uptake in settlers violence ⁓ marginalized Palestinian communities in Jewish terror And the government is just becoming more and more, as we all know, extreme and more and more. The police, the military forces that are on the ground are just becoming more and more politicized and extremist and becoming less and less willing to deal with these issues. Be it, know, turning a blind eye. I was attacked in November. The beginning of November, I filed a police report. The next day, November 5th, we are now, looking at my It's March I still haven't heard back from the police department to give my testimony. And it's not, this is the norm. And ⁓ I'm Israeli civilian who had the ability to file a police report. Orly Erez Likhovski: And it's not an exception, right? I mean, that's the rule. I that's what usually happens. Yeah. That's enough. Dana Sharon: with the police department. So many of the people who are hit, be it Palestinians or foreign civilians coming in to assist in the efforts for protective presence, will not necessarily file a complaint because they are well aware that if they will file a complaint, they will either, in the case of the Palestinians, be held accountable and spend the night or a few in jail. or might risk deportation from Israel as had happened with those two lovely young women also around the time when I was attacked who were deported from Israel. One of them, her mother's a rabbi. I forget her name. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: and another one just last week whose mother is a reform rabbi and we're following closely. ⁓ Dana Sharon: Right. Yes, yes, yes. We keep throwing out these lovely Jewish young people. Two of them got ⁓ only were deported but are not allowed back to Israel for a decade. I'm sorry, what? It's Israel! ⁓ Jewish! What? ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, yeah, we want to, yeah, yeah, want to go back to your personal story soon, before that, tell us what are like the different tactics that Settlers use to attack Palestinians. And as you said, ⁓ it is not a new but things have evolved dramatically over the last few and especially few months. Dana Sharon: So the first thing worth noting is the uptake of outposts. The government is officially not for quite while, outposts were rare, especially under the Bennett government. They were not allowing new outposts. Now ⁓ it's I'm not an I can tell you what I see. And what I see is a huge increase in new outposts. Now an outpost, a settlers outpost, a Hilltop Youth outpost, a Jewish terror nest, call it how you will, it can begin very modestly. They put on one of those mobile homes ⁓ and a few people. And then next thing you know, it's four mobile ⁓ homes they are connecting them. to the Israeli power grid and they are offering water and they are offering sewage and et cetera. And whenever these things happen, oftentimes, even if the outpost itself is not on proper Palestinian private property, it is very close to Palestinian private property. And then the settlers use the fact that they feel unsafe. to ⁓ infringe on the rights of the Palestinian farmers, usually farmers, to go to their land claiming that their land is now too close to a settlement and they are not allowed to go there unaccompanied by military forces. And this is what we usually see. This is what makes the olive harvest season so much, all the more complicated. Rabbis for Human Rights have been providing protective presence for Palestinian olive farmers for roughly 30 years. It is the coolest thing we do that I wish the most we could stop doing. I wish we could all go there, do agricultural tourism and pay 50 bucks a day to be picking organic olives in the beautiful World Heritage terraces. It's gorgeous. It's also becoming increasingly more dangerous and unsettling to be out there because of the risk to our personal safety as well as that of the farmers. So this is the first method, this kind of indirect attack, let's say it, where you recruit the, recruit local authorities, Israeli local to assist you in basically ⁓ land stealing something that we're seeing more and more. Then there are just direct attacks. A settler, a group of settlers, a group of hilltop youth will come out. they are becoming and more dangerous, less and less, more and more bold. they are now, thank you, Itamar Ben Gvir they are now armed their teeth because they ⁓ are to be a conflict zone or a border zone settlement or in region, which they can get. ⁓ they can get weapons very easily. So they can get firearms. Josh Weinberg: you're referencing ⁓ Benver, Minister of National Security, who of course has ⁓ implemented which allows gun acquisition, That people are able to obtain ⁓ ownership of arms just by being in ⁓ specific conflict areas. because seeing some of the weapons being used, they're actually army issued, right? Is what you're saying. But Dana take us back a second and explain to us Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dana Sharon: Ownership and acquisition rights. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Dana Sharon: Right. Yes. Josh Weinberg: Because when we read about this, and especially in the mainstream and the media and the government, people often say, these are a few extremists or ⁓ few lone wolves, or in Hebrew we call them wild weeds that just growing. ⁓ Help understand ⁓ who are I don't know if you want to call them gangs or groups of whether they're helped up youth or other settlers. Not all of them are youth. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: And so we can understand, you know, who talking about here. Dana Sharon: So that's a very, again, very interesting, intricate question because for some of them, they are the, in fact, know, at risk youth that has been radicalized by specific extreme forces in within the settlement movement, within the Jewish messianic movement. It's a little heartbreaking. Some of those ⁓ outposts, some of the most extreme one. ⁓ are considered by the Israeli government, rehabilitation facilities. They're sending, the government is sending those young children that were extracted from their homes to be rehabilitated by some very extreme forces. And their rehabilitation includes mostly picking on Palestinian farmers and Palestinian shepherding communities and stealing flock. So I don't see how that's helping anyone. ⁓ so that's that's another way that this government is failing everyone miserably. Orly Erez Likhovski: And who, who yeah. And Dana, first of all, who is backing them? And also what is the attitude of the sort of leadership mainstream, if we can say so, leadership of the ⁓ right? Because obviously not everybody agrees with them, but we know that most people don't speak up against them. Dana Sharon: Right. Right, but the silence is deafening. The silence is When I was hit ⁓ a settler, when I was assaulted in a terror attack, I didn't hear from any of, you know, ⁓ no from the leadership of the settlement movement, those mainstream people, the politician, said anything. silence is deafening. When I was hit ⁓ by settler, when I was assaulted a Jewish terror attack, I didn't hear from of, you know, ⁓ no one from the leadership of the settlement those mainstream people, the politician, nobody said anything. Someone knows who is the person that hit me. I was hit by the drone of the civil regional defense force of a specific outpost called Revava. Someone knows who flew the drone. That person never came forward. The leader of the civil defense, Someone knows who is the person that hit me. I was hit by the drone of the civil regional attack, the civil regional defense force of a specific outpost called Revava. Someone knows who flew the drone. That person never came forward. The leader of the civil defense, platoon never marched the person who was flying the drone to the nearest police station and told them book him. platoon never marched the person who was flying the drone to the nearest police station and told them book him. the silent and the ignorance they were right. in the so so there are two things the day I was had two really bad things had happened. One of them is when I was I was I was attacked by a drone. Orly Erez Likhovski: and he was wearing, and he, yeah, Dana, wearing IDF uniform, right? Dana Sharon: a military-issued drone, definitely a military-issued drone, very big, very obviously military-issued, that my arm, I needed stitches, and when two soldiers, military, two apparently they were reservists, came to retrieve the drone, they shot at us to retrieve the drone. We're not sure Orly Erez Likhovski: idea if so. Dana Sharon: It is very possible that these are two incidents we're talking about. One is a drone assault and the other one is opening fire at civilian, not according to army protocol. Two very serious offenses. On both of them, no one was still brought to justice. Orly Erez Likhovski: And can you explain to us what is the army doing in this instance and what is the police? Because sometimes the soldiers are there, right? It's in front of their eyes. Dana Sharon: Right. we so right. And when you're in the C territory, then the the the police basically the C even civilian matters are supposed to be resolved by the army because there is no police there. There is no it's not in the authority of the Palestinian police. It's also not in the authority of the Israeli police. It's it's border patrol is basically in charge and And that's also awful because they are not trained to do police work. Being a police person and being a soldier, it's two very different professions. And the fact that we have, you know, these young soldiers having to deal with, with what is essentially police work ⁓ troubling and very damaging both for those soldiers, but also for their ability to actually get the work done efficiently and appropriately. Josh Weinberg: my sense is that they are somewhat confused as to they're meant be protecting and who they're meant to be, you know, reprimanding or they're meant to be. Because. ⁓ Dana Sharon: That's a very nice way of putting that because they are not confused. They're on the side of Jewish people. It doesn't matter who is the offender. It doesn't matter. And we've seen this repeatedly, especially under Ben Gvir and the new and the new military, the new person who's in charge on the Yehuda and military region, ⁓ who is a settler. Josh Weinberg: Yes. Orly Erez Likhovski: And especially, think, under, yeah, yeah. And then, yeah, and this got. Yeah, yeah, so it. Josh Weinberg: Right, okay, so let's give a basic, I wanna make sure that we're not getting too far into the weeds because I wanna give a sort of a larger overview, right, in terms of, you a picture of who some of these settlers are. What is their goal? ⁓ What you think that they hope to do by committing acts of ⁓ running through, think we this week that there is a, Dana Sharon: And what we've Josh Weinberg: really coordinated attempt to ransack, think what we would call in Jewish history, would call pogroms, right? Going through Palestinian villages torching cars and houses and what's goal? What are they trying to achieve by this? Just so we understand the larger picture here. Dana Sharon: So the larger attempt is to make the entire region of and Shomron the Palestinian occupied territories free from Palestinian population and take over it completely. And to some extent it's working. We are seeing some things that can be described as ethnic cleansing and de facto annexation, where they just take over larger and larger quantity of ground. grazing is a very interesting method. Palestinian, a Jewish settler will get a flock of goats and decide that they have grazing rights over a specific region of the Jordan Valley that has been used by the same Palestinian community for years and years for like generations. And they are Josh Weinberg: area. Yeah. Dana Sharon: And they would call the local authorities and they will call the RavShatz the person who's in charge on the civil defense forces. And they will of course side with the settlers and the Palestinians will end up in jail in a good case and dead in a bad case. the increase in violence is very, very real, very, very scary. Public attention is very... is very distracted by the situation with Iran. it makes sense. However, ⁓ feels like every time these things gain momentum in Israeli press, something ⁓ else of happened and the public attention goes away again. Orly Erez Likhovski: So I want to ask you, Dana, about public response and public awareness. I completely agree that people like most Israelis are not aware at all about what's going on ⁓ the West Bank. They don't want to know. as you said, deliberately, obviously, the education system does not teach anybody anything about that. But I do think that because of the severity of the case, especially in ⁓ recent ⁓ it to me that some things have changed. ⁓ at least in the sense that we hear a little bit more about this in Israeli media and not only in Haaretz, but also in other media outlets. And I think this in and of itself is important, right? Because obviously you need first for Israelis to hear what's happening. I want to ask you whether you do feel there is obviously it's under the war and everybody is super ⁓ of surviving, right? In survival mode, but still I think it's more talked about than before. So do you think it's going to maybe Dana Sharon: Alright. Orly Erez Likhovski: make some change, at least in the public awareness, in the fact that more journalists are talking about it. Dana Sharon: I mean, I so, I really do. But I think we've, ⁓ seeing these peaks of interest and then they dwindle into nothing. And we've seen it, we've seen it when in the week I was hurt, two people were deported. And then after I was hurt, also Professor Oded Yedaya was also very severely hurt. And we've, you know, it got some media coverage, but at the end of the day, we haven't seen a meaningful change. So I'm, I would, I really would like to hope so. I really, I think we are in dire need of a change. Like Josh said, honestly, yes, the optics of this is terrible, but the essence of this is even worse. The complete of accountability, the complete ⁓ ⁓ it's it's a lawless land. It's the, it's, it's the West bank. It's the wild West. ⁓ It's Josh Weinberg: It's the Wild West, right? It's the, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dana Sharon: It's the wild west and what I think, even from a very utilitarian point of view, we should know by now that everything that starts in the West Bank ends up in Tel Aviv and in Jerusalem. That all of those things we've seen, Josh Weinberg: I mean, that was interesting. I think our friend and colleague and leader MK Rabbi Gilad Kariv asked that question in a Knesset committee the other day to say, okay, right now everyone is just sort of turning a blind eye or not paying attention to this. And it's a whole interesting question about how much this is covered in the news right now, especially with Iran and Dana I think you would make the contention that this is being done Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I Dana Sharon: writes Josh Weinberg: deliberately while the country is distracted rightfully so as missiles are falling on Tel Aviv and in the south and all of those. Gilad raised the question of when is this going to spill over into mainstream cities and towns and throughout But Dana, yeah please, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dana Sharon: price. Orly Erez Likhovski: But no, but Josh, I do want to say another thing about this point. think even on a broader sense, think during, you mentioned the judicial coup. I think that during the judicial coup, Israelis understood that this mode of lawlessness that exists in the West Bank penetrated Israel through the government. I the fact that the government is trying to destroy the judicial system is a direct result of how they are used to deal with law or the lack of law. or the lack of the rule of law in the West Bank. I think this time in 2023, people started to connect the dots. And I think it was an important process for Israelis to understand. ⁓ everything has stopped on October 7th, but I think people sort of understood this idea of spilling in Israel. And we saw it by the way, on how ⁓ the is not treating at all violence within Arab cities within Israel, but we saw some ⁓ sort ⁓ very ⁓ or cruel policy by the police toward Arab villages within Israel as sort of a way to deal with our violence. We saw it ⁓ in the South after there were a few cars were ⁓ on fire ⁓ southern Israel. And then as a result, ⁓ blockade was put on an Arab village within Israel. ⁓ those tactics used to be used only in the West Bank. Now they have brought inside and that's how. Palestinian citizens of Israel are being treated, blocked within their own village, not allowed to actually go out a complete... So this is definitely spilling in already. Dana Sharon: Right. Precisely. Precisely. The the uptake in racism and in racist, you know, racist incidents is not my topic to talk about. That's for you, Orly But and ⁓ it all of those notions. Dehumanization does not stop at borders. When you stop treating people like they're people, then you stop treating people like they're people. and your own people to some extent. And we see it, know, we're of reform in Israel are kind of accustomed to being marginalized. We know how these things are. And ⁓ when you disenfranchise when you do, you, okay, so now you know, they're annexed in Palestinian private property. I don't know, maybe next they will annex Hebrew Union College because we don't deserve property because we're not Jewish enough. I mean, I'm exaggerating a little bit, that's kind of the notion. The notion is that there is, with human rights, there is right and wrong. Josh Weinberg: So Dana, I we're getting the picture of what happening. Tell us a little bit about what your approach is ⁓ as Rabbis Human as an organization, into what can be done. Because when I raised the here in North America, and we just had a ⁓ pretty large rabbis convention you ⁓ when people want to talk about Israel and they're really focuses on Iran and standing in solidarity and I even got comments from people saying you I really you are worried about poor Palestinians in the West Bank when missiles are falling on Israel and our people are suffering in and out of shelters and ⁓ you know are two separate questions but you know help me understand ⁓ the response should be for that and then take us through a little bit about you know whether it's a Dana Sharon: Right. Josh Weinberg: theory of change or just a emergency response to what's going on right now and how these things should be prevented. Dana Sharon: Okay, so first of all, I think these two don't eliminate each other. The fact that people are in and out of bomb shelters here eliminate the fact that our Palestinian community is under attack. Some may argue it's ⁓ Both things can be true at the same time. And some may argue they're all policies of, know, very callous government who is very indifferent to human lives. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, they're not mutually exclusive, right? Orly Erez Likhovski: There is no, no cook, yeah. Dana Sharon: and the sanctity of lives. Some may refer to some of them as death ethers and that makes sense to me. Look, what Rabbis for Human Rights have been doing, Rabbis for Human Rights have been again providing productive presence with the understanding that it doesn't look like when Rabbis for Human Rights was founded in 1988, I think, It did look like the occupation is about to end any minute now and we're heading in a good direction. We just need to stick it out a little longer. Unfortunately, that is not the case. We still provide protective presence our work is with two perspective. ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: you Dana Sharon: perspectives in mind. One, to actually aid and abet those struggling communities. Secondly, to remind both our Palestinian partners and ourselves that we can do better and that we are better and that we have these values and we stand by them. And since October 7th, we've also been providing humanitarian aid to some extent. It's something we didn't engage with, but the complete lockdown that has been put upon West Bank since October 7th with very few uplifts have basically brought a lot of people to a... ⁓ People who are already struggling are now even struggling even harder. So we thought some humanitarian aid of food and of medicine is something that is this very basic human thing we can do. And we are doing that, especially we've just ended our Ramadan campaign with great success where we've been providing food packages to specifically struggling communities with ⁓ Ramadan supply. ⁓ that's something we've been doing. We also try to educate within the Israeli society with the pre-military academies mostly. And of course with rabbis as agents of change for their communities and congregations. We have over 170 members across across genders, ⁓ across country, all of whom are committed to both being rabbis and dedicated to the issues. of human rights and their infringements upon them. Orly Erez Likhovski: think, Dana, of all, it's amazing. And I think it's such an essential work, which always has been, and especially now. And I think one of the unique ⁓ aspects, of course, is that it's being done from a Jewish perspective. ⁓ And think this is obviously something that we at IRAC and the IMPJ are very busy doing, telling the Israeli public what the government is trying to present as Jewish is not our Judaism and our Judaism believe in the sanctity of life as you said, and in the need to help others actually just, you know, we have been issuing public statements on this and we just issued the public statement of the IMPJ and of Maram, the Council of Reform Rabbis in Israel about the need to with settler violence and about the fact that of course we cannot stay silent and rather... Judaism demands us to speak up against violence and against, and of course not to turn a blind eye. And we called both on the government and the police and the IDF and the settler leadership and the media, to deal with this and to expose it and to the Israeli public ⁓ a whole, not to turn a blind eye. ⁓ I think it's important to have more more voices actually talk about this. ⁓ we do hear to some extent, some moderate Orthodox. ⁓ ⁓ voices, right? Rabbis who are speaking up against this and I think this is important. So maybe just say a word about that. Dana Sharon: Right, absolutely. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, saw three in the last week, Rabbi Yehuda and Rabbi Avidan Friedman and even Rabbi Ken Brander, who are mainstream in Gush Dana Sharon: So- calling calling Avidan mainstream a bit of a stretch, but no, he's a wonderful person and a dedicated member and friend. ⁓ Love him and his perspective is so important. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Okay, he's a little bit further to the left, yeah, yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and I'll... We wish, we wish he would be mainstream. He's so amazing. I wish he would be more mainstream. Yeah. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: He was more mainstream. Fair enough, right? We're not hearing more mainstream people because, you know, I think that there are settlers or those who live in Jewish communities beyond the green line who want to live in peace and want to live quietly and have relationships and also condemn this kind of violence. And, ⁓ know, why are we not hearing more of an uproar from them? ⁓ us through that a little bit. Dana Sharon: Are you all froze? Am I also frozen? ⁓ Right. No, that's a very good question. I'm a little, I mean, I can offer some answers. I do have to kind of say it's not necessarily my realm of expertise. I'm a reform rabbi. That's where I come from. It is important for me also to note if we're talking about Rabbis for Human Rights, all of our members have to be Israelis. We take that also very seriously. It's not, Josh, you're one of the exceptions because ⁓ exceptions of someone who was ordained in Israel, maintains a very strong connection to Israel and doesn't serve in Israel at the moment. one of our very few exceptions. But we take very, very seriously the fact that we're not only offering a Jewish perspective, but the Jewish Israeli perspective. Because it's very easy to kind of say, it's American liberals. What do they know? No, we are all here on the ground. We all have the highest of stakes in this situation with children serving in the military, with children going into bomb shelters, ⁓ ⁓ it. So I think that's important. Why the Orthodox, ⁓ why ⁓ we're hearing more of an uproar from the Orthodoxy Josh Weinberg: So that's critically important. That's, yeah. Dana Sharon: mainstream or even more modern orthodoxy, think is very, very, ⁓ yeah, it's, I think it's critical that we will start hearing of those voices. Again, I think the government did a really, really good job with equating, caring about human rights with leftism, with ⁓ with ⁓ these values who I think are important and beautiful. but can be challenging for the orthodox mainstream. And I think people are genuinely, if they are employed by the government, which is much more common within the orthodox streams to actually governmental employee, then that's another issue where you cannot speak up necessarily. And even the people who don't, I think they're much more ⁓ intertwined with the government or with semi-governmental again, Ha Kayemet it is a good example of a semi-governmental entity that is very complicated. And Rabbi's for human rights have called them out on several of the things that they have done and is a founding body for a lot of also wonderful things. So it's very... Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, we know that we have our representatives within the JNF that are aware of this and are doing, they're trying to do a lot within those institutions. Dana Sharon: Right, that are working, doing an incredible, trying to do a lot within those institutions. And it's so important. And that's another question, I think, if we're talking about how we are impacting things, those who try to change from within and those who try to change from without. And those who are, you know, trying to, from within the Knesset, from within the... within Keren Kayemet while some of us are standing outside are just kind of doing a kind of work. ⁓ And I it's ⁓ all of attempts are imperative to try and make things better at the end of the day. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. And I think, yeah, and I think talking about how to make an impact, Josh, maybe you can say a word about what you're doing from North America, because this is, you're focusing on this now as one of the important issues. Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Well, yes, absolutely. There is a bill in Congress called the West Bank Violence Prevention Act, which is essentially a bill, you know, mostly by Democrats who are looking to, you know, really raise the voice to say that this is unacceptable. ⁓ And Israel is a recipient of, ⁓ you significant foreign aid to the United States, that this can't continue. Now we remember in the Biden administration that there were sanctions, you know, Dana Sharon: Yeah, which were immensely helpful. have seen a decrease under sanctions. Yes, absolutely. Josh Weinberg: leveled and uh, you know there's Yeah Sure, sanctions have been removed under President Trump right now. Actually, can you help us understand how that worked and what was helpful about that? Because lots people are a little bit hesitant to support a bill that deals with issues that appear to be domestic issues for a different country. right now even though we think that this is dire and this is incredibly serious just us how it works and and and how it's impactful Dana Sharon: So right, so once you have as it's it's first of all, it's worth noting, like you said, that there's a lot of foreign aid. It's also worth noting that there's a lot of private American money funding these settlement a lot of them, by the way, from ⁓ evangelical Christians. The evangelical Christians are pouring buckets of into the settlement movement. trying to head rush the Armageddon, but I'm not, again, not an expert. We are fully aware that there are some serious connections there. So that's, that's an, and, know, ⁓ for example, NGOs that are buying properties, Palestinian properties in East Jerusalem, for example, are also presumably being funded by, by similar similar bodies, it's very hard to understand. And for of them, ⁓ people dedicated a lot of research, I think even IRAC that try and dedicated a lot of research to understand who's been crawling some of these things ⁓ to no because it's so ⁓ covert. And I it important to know that, you know, if there is governmental tax dollars going into Israel, going into Israeli defense. Make sure, make sure you know, and this is something I think we're trying to encourage Israelis as well. Make sure you know where your tax dollars are going. Make sure you know what is done in your behalf with your money. Is it public library? Is it, you know, the iron dome, which are great things? Or are you helping arming defense forces in the settlement and enabling ⁓ military weapons issuing to people who probably shouldn't be carrying firearms in a situation where they probably shouldn't be carrying firearms? And I think it is very, I think it is your prerogative and your... ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: you Dana Sharon: right and almost your duty as citizens in a democratic country or somewhat democratic countries at this point to kind of know what's going on, know where our money is going. The Israeli taxpayers are paying incredibly high taxes. I am fully aware of what my taxes are being used to do and I fully hate it. Most of it. Very little of it I'm willing to stand behind. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: ⁓ Well, that's important. you know, of course we don't get like an itemized bill with our taxes to say, you know, X percentage went these things no one does. ⁓ as, yeah, yeah. And we as a reform movement have also, you not, ⁓ we are quite against conditioning foreign ⁓ or restricting aid in any way, especially when Israel under attack. Dana Sharon: Right, unfortunately we should... We should really try and push for it! Orly Erez Likhovski: Hahaha Josh Weinberg: So, but just help us understand happens when someone, ⁓ the, like the US for instance, level sanctions on a settler person. ⁓ does that curb their activity? Dana Sharon: ⁓ First of all, ⁓ the awareness is when all of sudden ⁓ there is this, you know, even a coverage saying this and that person is actually ⁓ Sanctioned by the US government. important It uses sometimes it was used as leverage for our government for the Israeli police to start at least to some extent investigate some of those very questionable people, very questionable actions, are getting sometimes very questionable funding. Orly Erez Likhovski: if I remember correctly, when we had the sanctions, both American and I think it was British and others on people such as Gupten, who is the head of Lahava and others, Israeli banks not have them open accounts, their credit cards were canceled, they couldn't use different platforms, for instance, to get donations. It really, really the way they can operate do fundraising. tremendously important in curbing their activities. So I think it's definitely a huge, yeah. It's really, really, it really, really matters. And when we're talking about sort of international sanctions, then Israeli banks need to adhere to this and it really could make a difference in helping to curb their activity and to minimize the damage that they're doing. So definitely those sanctions made a difference, tremendous difference. Josh Weinberg: So it makes a huge difference, right? It really impacts them. Yeah. Dana Sharon: Yeah, huge difference. Orly Erez Likhovski: I want to say that, yeah, we, so we at IRAC made sure that all the banks really respect all those sanctions where they were in effect to make sure that actually, you know, they are not ⁓ allowed to spread their hatred and to do whatever, you know, they're doing on all these platforms. Yeah, including, you know, writing to Twitter and writing to all of those, you know, platforms to actually de-platform them and not allowing them to spread the hatreds and to... Josh Weinberg: from a legal point of view. Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: to restrict their activities as much as possible. Josh Weinberg: So Dana, earlier you referred to this and the attack that you were a victim of this past November while helping with the olive harvest. You referred to it you were a victim of Jewish terror. What preventing the defense ministry right now from classifying these acts as actually acts of terror? There's no problem, any Palestinian that throws a rock or ⁓ you know has a scissors in their hand as they attack a border patrol which is really terrible obviously and those are definitely acts of terror whether it's you whether it's October 7th or whether it's a stone throwing you know really but these are these militias as we're seeing in the West Bank are terrorizing villages so do they the actual legal distinction of being terror groups and ⁓ if what preventing the defense ministry from ⁓ classifying them as such. Dana Sharon: They do not, though we've been negotiating for this for how long, Orly? Orly Erez Likhovski: Decades. Yeah, yeah. And obviously the power is within, as you say, the defense. ⁓ Dana Sharon: I remember posting a lot about this on social media. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, when working in IRAC. Basically, the power to a terrorist organization lies with the defense minister. And obviously, under this government, this is not going to happen. And not only that, the IDF, police used to use administrative detention ⁓ toward Dana Sharon: you Orly Erez Likhovski: Jewish terrorists. Now, this is a tool that is undemocratic whatsoever, right? But despite that, it's being used toward Palestinian terrorists, which means they're being put to jail without having any legal proceedings. I mean, it's not they're not being charged in you know, sort of regular legal proceeding, but it's sort of an expedited procedure where they're actually put to jail without a real trial. And it has been used against Palestinian terrorists in the West Bank for years. And then it has began to be used against Jewish terrorists, but then under the current government, the current defense minister stopped it. And that was an important tool that actually the security forces told the defense minister, need it. We need it in order to use to defy Jewish terrorism, but this has not been used. And obviously this is another tool that has not been used because it's not the policy of this government that actually ⁓ backs these actions. And this is just another ⁓ sign showing that they have no intention whatsoever of actually dealing. with this terrible, terrible phenomenon. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, yeah, I wanted to pick up on that a little bit because I think when we're seeing an uptick, partially because of this backing from the government that we know that Itamar Ben Gvir in charge of the police ⁓ and access to weapons, but also Bezalel Smotrich who many may not be aware, in addition to being finance minister, also has a like one day a week position as a deputy minister in the defense ministry in charge of activities in the territories. So how is the government supporting this and what should people know about how this has changed or morphed in the last couple of years? Dana Sharon: So, so like we've said, from, it's important to note that for decades the Israeli government had always had, was turning a blind eye, definitely not enforcing enough. Now we're the point of almost open endorsement. So many members of the government actually live in the occupied territories. Smotrich Ben Gvir I think, lives in Kiryat Arba. It's They are within it and they encourage it by actions, by words, Limor Son Har-Melech raising funds for the representation of the person Right, think so. ⁓ Excuse me, I forget the parties. Orly Erez Likhovski: in a, she's a, she's in Ben Gvir's party. Dana Sharon: Okay, and Ben Gvir and Smotrich surprisingly, it's not the same party. But yeah, we are seeing both in rhetoric and in actions, full endorsement of the government with very, very little opposition, be it from the more moderate members of the government. to even parties who are technically in the opposition. The that I can name the names of the people who are speaking up against this, Rabbi MK Gilad Kariv and ⁓ MK Naama Lazimi can name them. That is not okay. I shouldn't be able to name them. It should be so right. It should be so obvious that whenever there is a Jewish terror attack, Benny Gantz is up again, is a statement against it as well as Yair Lapid We are hearing nothing, nothing from them. We've heard very little on, ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Josh Weinberg: they're in such a minority, right? Dana Sharon: on the attacks on Palestinian citizens of Israel in very specific contexts. But ⁓ near enough, especially with how severe and how encompassing the phenomenon ⁓ And that is so disappointing. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. You know, we could have, ⁓ yeah, completely, and we could talk about this for hours more, but unfortunately, we are nearing the end of this episode. Dana, first of all, thank you for this really, really important and very bleak picture of how things are, because that's how things are. And I want to ask you sort of in conclusion, two things. First of all, what do you think ⁓ our listeners can do if they care about this? And the second one is, in this really, really, really such a difficult reality, where do you find hope? Those two very easy questions. Dana Sharon: hope part, ⁓ hope cause the hope part is easy. I have amazing partners. We have amazing partners. We are amazing partners to each other. I know we need, when we need when we need, when you know, when we need, when we need partners in hope, ⁓ IRAC is usually first call. Orly Erez Likhovski: Okay. Dana Sharon: and you always pick up the phone and we're hopefully in God's will we were all going to be marching together in the interfaith march this may taking this so important ⁓ on what Jerusalem should and could look like it's actually one of our most incredible projects we haven't talked about ⁓ because it... yes ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, maybe we should just a word. It's a march that Rabbis For Human Rights initiated and lead every Jerusalem day, sort of as a response to the racist flag march that marches through the Muslim quarter in the old city. And it's an interfaith march for human rights, for intolerance and for peace. And we always take part in it. And it's a very, very moving and powerful event every spring in Jerusalem. Dana Sharon: Right. So I forget if it's May 19 or 18. We'll check and we will circle back to the listeners. But it's a really, really meaningful, powerful thing to do, which I encourage everyone to, if you're in Israel, come join us. If you're not, see how can contribute and how you can support us ⁓ in empowering ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: You Dana Sharon: both those moderate and pluralistic religious voices, both within Judaism and without, with the different faiths, whom of us share this passion ⁓ making this country, especially Jerusalem, a better place, enlightened ⁓ and more and So that's really hope is the hope for me is easy. you know, every time we do, we've done a fundraiser, a public fundraiser in the last two or three Not only did we raise everything we hoped for, ⁓ we raised much And so many of our donors are Israelis, There are a lot of people in this country. who are fully aware of how bad things are. And I think we're really trying hard and I think we have a beautiful, smart, intelligent, inspiring leadership. Orly I'm including you and I'm including Gilad and Rabbi Noa and Rabbi Avi. From some extent I've been really lucky to have all of these really incredible mentors throughout my career so far. Josh Weinberg: you Dana Sharon: That's the hope part. And I think we also touch on what you can do, right? What we always say, what I used to say in IRAC, and I still say now, find your non-governmental in Israel and get involved. Find a non-governmental organization that stands by something you believe in. Don't touch anything that is governmental. This government is toxic. Steer clear from it, but find a non-governmental organization. doing the really important work non-governmental organizations here do right now and get behind them. Show your support via funding, feedback on social media, sending an encouraging email. I used to get those when I was doing IRAC. It was really fun sometimes. Yeah, and get yourself informed and get yourself involved through those means. Josh Weinberg: And of course from here, support our efforts in passing the West Bank Violence Prevention Act, that can have a real impact and it is something that we can do and we have action alerts going out and around it. I think, Dana, what you said about two things can be true at the same time, that we want to stand in solidarity and support with all those who are, like all you who are running in and out of shelters. And of course, our hearts go out to those who really are suffering. ⁓ including people from our movement. And that doesn't have to contradict or supersede the fact that this is a really, really dire and only growing issue that, you know, especially when, you know, leading Pesach as we're thinking about this holiday of freedom and liberation and what we can do. Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ Josh, I want to relate to what you said, because I think it's ⁓ not a of pain. We have a lot of pain going on, and we should be aware of all of it and try to do whatever we can to address it. Dana Sharon: Yeah. Josh Weinberg: Yes. Dana Sharon: Yeah. one of our Palestinian partners, Omar Haramy works with us on the Interfaith March every year, he always says, it's not the pain Olympics. We are not in competition. There is plenty of pain. ⁓ Right. There plenty of pain to go around and let's try and combat it while we can and make things. None of us, there is a beautiful, beautiful prayer usually connected to prayer. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Josh Weinberg: Yes, with the victim Olympics, I love that. Yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: For everyone. Dana Sharon: to Pride Month, but I like to use it also for Pesach. And the concluding was, give us the wisdom to know that none of us is free until we all are. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, that's beautiful. know, thank you so much, Dana, for all ⁓ work you do. ⁓ continue to work together for a better future and for coming here and sharing this really important things with us. And I want to remind our listeners that this podcast exists because we believe Israel ⁓ can better ⁓ for who live here and for all who love it from afar. ⁓ but that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if these episodes mean something to you, please share it and help us keep going. Josh Weinberg: stay up to date, subscribe on Riverside, YouTube, or wherever you listen to podcasts. And please help us grow. Leave a five-star review and send this episode to someone who could be part of this conversation. If you want to even sponsor an episode, it's a great way to mark an upcoming occasion, maybe in honor of Pesach. We'd like to sponsor this episode, or a birthday, or an anniversary, or even Yom HaTzmaut. We'd to hear from you. If always there's a topic you would like us to explore, please reach out. or if there's something that you think that we should be addressing. And as you go to leave your review, you could say something like, hey, I was really confused about this settler violence issue, but now I'm not. And now I really understand with moral clarity what should be done. That's an easy review to leave. And we hope that you continue to listen and to spread the Pluralist Podcast. Our deep thanks to Rabbi Dana Sharon, and to Orly Erez-Likhovski as ever. I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg, and we look forward to connecting soon. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you, bye bye.