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Beyond the Biblical Manhood Checklist: Overseer and Deacon Traits for Every Disciple · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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  Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
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  Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,
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  Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the
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  Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions
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  Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto
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  Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this
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  Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on doctor James Spencer and I'm
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  Speaker 1: joined again by doctor Ashisha Varma, and we're continuing our
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  Speaker 1: conversation about Biblical manhood and maybe some of the misconceptions
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  Speaker 1: that we have about Biblical manhood from differing interpretations and such.
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  Speaker 1: Today we're going to jump into a specific text. We're
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  Speaker 1: going to look at first Timothy three, specifically Verse Timothy three.
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  Speaker 1: We're going to go from verse one all the way
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  Speaker 1: down probably to somewhere in thirteen. And in the general
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  Speaker 1: idea here is number one that I think these these
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  Speaker 1: characteristics that are listed here of overseers and which often
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  Speaker 1: translated as deacons, they aren't just male characteristics these are
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  Speaker 1: characteristics that are also applied to women in various places.
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  Speaker 1: And so if we look at a few of these,
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  Speaker 1: like above approach, which is one Timothy three to two,
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  Speaker 1: we see that also in one Timothy five seven applied
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  Speaker 1: to widows, same Greek word respectable, and first Timothy three
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  Speaker 1: two is applied to women in one Timothy two nine,
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  Speaker 1: it's often translated as modesty. If we look at able
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  Speaker 1: to teach in one Timothy three two, that term isn't
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  Speaker 1: isn't applied to women, though women are generally described and
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  Speaker 1: portrayed as teaching others in other contexts in like Titus
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  Speaker 1: two three. And so we've got all these different things
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  Speaker 1: that are sort of piling up that would suggest that
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  Speaker 1: these characteristics, this list of characteristics that we're looking at
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  Speaker 1: with overseers and diack deacons are not simply male characteristics.
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  Speaker 1: It's not as if only the males within the community
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  Speaker 1: need to be above approach or sober minded or self controlled,
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  Speaker 1: or what have you. And so I think that's important
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  Speaker 1: as we think about how to apply these into a
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  Speaker 1: biblical manhood perspective. We'll talk a little bit more about
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  Speaker 1: that as we go, but probably we want to set
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  Speaker 1: the context up of what's going on here in the
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  Speaker 1: first place, and to do that, we need to dive
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  Speaker 1: a little bit into First Timothy two. But we're going
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  Speaker 1: to do that sparingly because First Timothy two really deserves
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  Speaker 1: its own episode. So maybe I'll hand that off to
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  Speaker 1: you there, Ashish and give you the hot potato for
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  Speaker 1: a moment. First Timothy two. What's your perspective on what's
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  Speaker 1: going on there? And how would that inform with the
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  Speaker 1: way we need to read First Timothy three?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, question, Before I get to that, can I give
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  Speaker 2: a second, very related sort of preamble?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 2: So, I think you rightly point out that we need
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  Speaker 2: to move forward, not making assumptions that because a particular
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  Speaker 2: quality is stated towards someone of a particular gender doesn't
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  Speaker 2: mean that that's a statement about exclusivity exclusivity toward that gender,
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  Speaker 2: or that all times in places require us to think
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  Speaker 2: only in terms of that gender.
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  Speaker 3: Right, Right.
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  Speaker 2: But I think a parallel, parable preamble would be something
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  Speaker 2: like being cautious about words and language. And what I
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  Speaker 2: mean by that is that we tend very easily, oftentimes
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  Speaker 2: because of historical usage, to read what becomes technical terms
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  Speaker 2: back into the text. So you know, as if theologian
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  Speaker 2: Biblical scholars often accuse us, often rightly, of taking the
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  Speaker 2: word justification, which has its own theological baggage through technical
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  Speaker 2: conversations quite literally centuries long in the making, and then
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  Speaker 2: going to Paul and seeing the word that is often
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  Speaker 2: translated as justification to Kaiosune, and reading all that baggage
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  Speaker 2: back into it, as if all that was what Paul
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  Speaker 2: was getting at, and then going to say, the Book
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  Speaker 2: of James, where the word might be used, and reading
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  Speaker 2: it there as well. And the caution here is that,
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  Speaker 2: first of all, every time Paul uses this word, he
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  Speaker 2: may not necessarily be saying the same thing, right right,
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  Speaker 2: Never mind, when James uses the word, he may not
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  Speaker 2: be thinking, you remember that term that Paul used or
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  Speaker 2: is going to use in a future letter, this is
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  Speaker 2: what I write. And when we overread that sort of
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  Speaker 2: technical language back in, we get ourselves into really just
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  Speaker 2: we back ourselves into in terms brit of corners, where
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  Speaker 2: we're now stuck. We're stuck, We're stuck in a jail
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  Speaker 2: that is a false jail. Right, So, as a mentor
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  Speaker 2: of mind, once said, find the open door and push
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  Speaker 2: against it and walk out of that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we can do this with.
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  Speaker 3: The words that you just mentioned.
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  Speaker 2: So not only is there the gender dynamic that we
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  Speaker 2: can be presumptuous of, but additionally we can read a
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  Speaker 2: word like episcopas that's translated sometimes as elder, maybe more
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  Speaker 2: appropriately as overseer, and diakanos translated as deacon, and see
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  Speaker 2: them as specific offices that the church later comes to
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  Speaker 2: identify in very particular ways that maybe in the first
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  Speaker 2: century aren't so clearly defined in that kind of way.
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  Speaker 3: So I think we.
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  Speaker 2: Should we should try our best to try to set
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  Speaker 2: aside these technicalities. And what I don't mean by that
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  Speaker 2: is go to your church and say, these are technicalities
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  Speaker 2: that come much after the Bible.
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  Speaker 3: They're not from the Bible. Put them away.
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  Speaker 2: No, I mean there could be good reasons for their development,
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  Speaker 2: but don't just assume one to one, right.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think to that point, if I can
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  Speaker 1: add something in there, the translation office of overseer is
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  Speaker 1: more interpretive than I think it needs to be. So
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  Speaker 1: to your point of piscopaus. It was Lightfoot in his
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  Speaker 1: commentary on Philippians in eighteen sixty eight who argue that
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  Speaker 1: episcopas and the word for elder are largely just synonyms,
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  Speaker 1: and so there's a different Greek word for elder. I'm
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  Speaker 1: blanking on what that is right now, but there is
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  Speaker 1: a different word. And so here when it's translated off
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  Speaker 1: office of overseer and for Timothy three to one, probably
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  Speaker 1: a better translation, because office doesn't actually appear right, that's
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  Speaker 1: a gloss on episcopass. It's probably better just think of
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  Speaker 1: one who aspires to oversight. It has more that force.
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  Speaker 1: We take the office out of it. This is someone
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  Speaker 1: now who is going to be functioning in a socially
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  Speaker 1: relevant role, let's say, but who may not hold a
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  Speaker 1: formal office in the way that we think of that today.
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  Speaker 1: So you know, they're hired in by a house church
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  Speaker 1: and they're appointed to this position and they you know,
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  Speaker 1: they have you know, job description with roles and responsibilities
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  Speaker 1: they have to fill. It may not be that. It
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  Speaker 1: may be more of a position within society that they
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  Speaker 1: come to embody and fulfill and that is recognized by
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  Speaker 1: the people in that particular context. But this is not
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  Speaker 1: like a paid position, a job that someone has. This
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  Speaker 1: is now a service that they're performing. And Paul is
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  Speaker 1: trying to scope out if you wanted to be an overseer.
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  Speaker 1: Here's what your life might look like. And as we
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  Speaker 1: talked a little bit before the episode, the diacinos often
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  Speaker 1: translated deacon, but that the acinos is found in places
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  Speaker 1: like Romans thirteen, where the governing authorities are your diaconos
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  Speaker 1: for good. They're God's servant for good. That's really what
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  Speaker 1: diaconos is here. And so we have these two sort
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  Speaker 1: of an oversight and a servant and they have oddly
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  Speaker 1: similar qualifications. Was kind of what we talked about beforehand.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's a good move. Let's make
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  Speaker 1: sure we're not thinking in terms of okay, so what
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  Speaker 1: should my pastor what characteristics should my pastor have? Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: they probably should have some of these characteristics, but that's
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  Speaker 1: not exactly what this passage is on you, right, And.
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  Speaker 2: I think as we'll see, really maybe we should all
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  Speaker 2: have some of these characteristics.
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  Speaker 1: We should probably as some of these characteristics.
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  Speaker 3: But more on that later. Yes, so to chapter two.
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  Speaker 2: I think that's an important way to set up what's
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  Speaker 2: going on in chapter two as it leads into three,
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  Speaker 2: because again, it can be very easy to go to
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  Speaker 2: chapter two and read what on the face value can
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  Speaker 2: come off as very strong declarative judgments that are law
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  Speaker 2: like as to what things should look like. Yeah, but
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  Speaker 2: we have to understand that this text, like all texts,
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  Speaker 2: are written by someone to someone in some place, and
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  Speaker 2: that's important in some time. Right, So when we're writing
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  Speaker 2: to somebody in some place, you know, quite simply, if
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  Speaker 2: we're writing to someone who lives along the equator and
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  Speaker 2: we're riding in a way in which we speak very
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  Speaker 2: metaphorically in ways that take for granted blistery winter conditions
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  Speaker 2: that involve snow and ice, it probably just doesn't communicate right.
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  Speaker 2: Very similarly, someone who grows up in the northern reaches
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  Speaker 2: of Alaska, for all that TV might help that person understand,
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  Speaker 2: and there's a very big gap experientially for that person
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  Speaker 2: to understand life around the equator. Now we have some
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  Speaker 2: acknowledgment of difference and some ability to recognize these differences
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  Speaker 2: because we live in a very connected world, we have
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  Speaker 2: an information system. We shouldn't assume that upon the text.
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  Speaker 2: So when Paul's writing in chapter two to people in Ephesians,
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  Speaker 2: I think fairly it's fairly easy in our situation to
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  Speaker 2: jump to, well, you know what Ephesians is going through
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  Speaker 2: the people in Antioch understand, But I don't think that's
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  Speaker 2: actually a good assumption. And whatever's going on in Ephesis
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  Speaker 2: probably relates more to the place of ephesis.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and.
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  Speaker 2: That I think is the first and biggest thing to
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  Speaker 2: recognize there. When Paul makes these statements that seem really
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  Speaker 2: strong and straightforward, he knows his place saying what can
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  Speaker 2: I say to you that matters?
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 2: Think about Paul's own language elsewhere where he says to
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  Speaker 2: the Jews, I'm a Jew, to the Gentiles, I'm a gentile,
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  Speaker 2: right to those as under the law I'm under the law,
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  Speaker 2: and those not under the law as if I'm not
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  Speaker 2: under the law, meaning the Torah. So when he addresses
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  Speaker 2: these people here, he does set up what appears to
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  Speaker 2: be strong gendered boundaries. Right, he says what he doesn't
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  Speaker 2: want women to do, he says what he does want
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  Speaker 2: men to do. But again, if we think about the
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  Speaker 2: world in which Paul is living more broadly, it's a
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  Speaker 2: world with very careful, very specific ideas of manhoods. So
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  Speaker 2: when we talked about virtue, for instance, to be a
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  Speaker 2: virtuous person one had to be a man. It was
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  Speaker 2: a gendered claim.
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  Speaker 3: Why, well, because.
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  Speaker 2: There were certain presumptions about a woman, which meant women
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  Speaker 2: cannot be X, Y and z, But it also meant
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  Speaker 2: certain kinds of men. Right, So the much she's the
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  Speaker 2: most sort of idea of a man, the strong guy,
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  Speaker 2: the whole Colgan Randy Savage sort of a person can't
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  Speaker 2: be virtuous either. So it's a very careful delineating of
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  Speaker 2: that reality. Now one can imagine reactions to that, and
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  Speaker 2: one can also imagine pockets of existence in this larger
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  Speaker 2: landscape that don't.
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  Speaker 3: Operate by that way of thinking.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 2: A simple example would be the myth of the Amazons, right,
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  Speaker 2: where this is a society of very warlike women who
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  Speaker 2: are able to govern themselves and in fact to the
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  Speaker 2: exclusion of men, or if there are men, those men
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  Speaker 2: come underneath them. Well, it shows you the impulse in
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  Speaker 2: that society of a flipping of the script of what
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  Speaker 2: might normally have been the case. Neither one of those though,
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  Speaker 2: should inherently be seen as the way things ought to be.
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  Speaker 2: But if Paul enters into those settings, Paul's going to
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  Speaker 2: begin to talk from the basic understanding of one or
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  Speaker 2: the other. Right now, I think there's good reason to
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  Speaker 2: think that that's exactly what's going on at play here,
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  Speaker 2: not that we have too much time for it, but
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  Speaker 2: I had that back.
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  Speaker 1: To James, I would just say, you know, when we
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  Speaker 1: look at because I do think again, without getting into
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  Speaker 1: First Timothy two at the depth that probably deserves you,
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  Speaker 1: said one thing, you know, he tells women what not
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  Speaker 1: to do, he tells men what to do. I think
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  Speaker 1: a lot of times when we hear that in relation
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  Speaker 1: to First Timothy two, and we're referring to this passage
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  Speaker 1: of you know, usually we're talking about on Timothy twelve
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  Speaker 1: or first Timothy to twelve. I do not permit a
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  Speaker 1: woman to teach or to exercise authority over our man.
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  Speaker 1: His instructions to men actually come ahead of that. So
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  Speaker 1: what are the men to do? Here's what Paul says.
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  Speaker 1: I desire them that in every place the men should pray,
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  Speaker 1: lifting holy hands, without anger or quarreling. Likewise, also that
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  Speaker 1: women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel with modesty and
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  Speaker 1: self control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls,
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  Speaker 1: or constably attire, but with what is proper for women
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  Speaker 1: who profess godliness with good works. Let a woman learn
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  Speaker 1: quietly with all submissiveness. If you think about what's going
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  Speaker 1: on there, the men aren't told to exercise authority, right.
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  Speaker 1: It isn't as if in verse twelve, when we get there,
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  Speaker 1: I do not permit a woman to teach or to
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  Speaker 1: exercise authority over a man, Paul is not necessarily meaning
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  Speaker 1: the opposite that a man is. Now, so then he
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  Speaker 1: allows a man to teach and to exercise authority over
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  Speaker 1: a man. He never actually says that what he's prohibiting
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  Speaker 1: is this very specific practice. And there's some good research
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  Speaker 1: out there on the authority word authority there. It's not
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  Speaker 1: the normal excusia that we see translated authority in other places.
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  Speaker 1: It's actually a different Greek word that normal means some
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  Speaker 1: sort of a domineering authority. It's it's almost what we
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  Speaker 1: would use, you know, when we say someone is a dictator,
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  Speaker 1: even if we're using that in a relatively metaphorical way,
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  Speaker 1: we mean it as a to have a negative connotation, right.
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  Speaker 1: You know, a CEO could be a dictator in the
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  Speaker 1: sense that they're controlling and manipulative and you know, domineering
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  Speaker 1: in some way, and so that that exercising of authority
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  Speaker 1: there doesn't necessarily have to mean that men automatically have
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  Speaker 1: that same sort of license to teach and have authority
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  Speaker 1: in the way that Paul is prohibiting women. And I
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  Speaker 1: think it speaks to that sort of situational aspect that
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  Speaker 1: you're talking about here. There's plenty of stuff that we
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  Speaker 1: could go through in this passage, but at the end
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  Speaker 1: of the day, I think it's worth noting that the
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  Speaker 1: only instruction that men get here is to pray lifting
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  Speaker 1: holy hands without anger or quarreling, and that in verse eight,
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  Speaker 1: and that isn't framed as a command, It's framed as
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  Speaker 1: Paul's desire. So a lot of baggage there that we
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  Speaker 1: sort of can import into this, But as we're just
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  Speaker 1: sort of reading the text as it is, we don't
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  Speaker 1: have to make those interpretive leaps, and perhaps we shouldn't
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  Speaker 1: make those interpretive leaps, And so there is a there's
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  Speaker 1: some real interesting wrinkles there that I think are often missed.
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  Speaker 1: I'll say it like.
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  Speaker 2: That, Yeah, well said, And I think that that sort
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  Speaker 2: of minimal approach to what's going on there without getting
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  Speaker 2: into the nuts and bolts, which is interesting but for
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  Speaker 2: another time in place, yes, informs what's going on as
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  Speaker 2: we get into chapter three that's right, right, Where the taking,
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  Speaker 2: for granted.
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  Speaker 3: Of a of a male.
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  Speaker 2: Person, yes, and the description of the episcopas the overseer,
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  Speaker 2: and then the description of the deacon, it becomes less
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  Speaker 2: obvious that that's say, what we would call a prescriptive thing,
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  Speaker 2: that Paul saying this is what it ought to be,
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  Speaker 2: and it's more of a descriptive thing that he's just
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  Speaker 2: describing what's going on. So in light of this reality
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  Speaker 2: and in light of what I see going on and
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  Speaker 2: the sorts of things that need some sort of fine
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: tuning here, now we move into a description of what
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  Speaker 2: does it look like for someone who is an overseer
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  Speaker 2: and someone who is will say, for the moment deacon,
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  Speaker 2: though maybe it's not clear that that technical word should
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  Speaker 2: be what's used there. What you have being set up
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  Speaker 2: now is the presumption that there are those who occupy
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  Speaker 2: different sorts of positions, right, and that's probably a social position.
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  Speaker 2: One who oversees and one who's a deacon or one
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  Speaker 2: who serves. These are people who are living in opposition
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  Speaker 2: to each other, not necessarily conflict, but opposition that one
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  Speaker 2: is at a higher status than the ones at a
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  Speaker 2: lower status, right, And these are the two groups of
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  Speaker 2: people Paul seems to be addressing so much as saying,
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  Speaker 2: these are the groups we should have and it should
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  Speaker 2: be made up in the start of way. Right, it's
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  Speaker 2: a cultural judgment that already exists, and already exists, likely
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  Speaker 2: along gendered lines, and Paul's addressing them those who are overseeing,
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  Speaker 2: here's what I'm saying to you, those who are the
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  Speaker 2: ones who serve.
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  Speaker 3: Here's what I'm saying to you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think there's one other thing I'd say,
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  Speaker 1: in addition to the prescriptive and descriptive framing, I think
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  Speaker 1: there's also the possibility within the descriptive for it to
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  Speaker 1: be a polemic. So imagine seeking speaking into a situation.
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  Speaker 1: The picture that's coming to my mind is an odd one,
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  Speaker 1: but the Amazonian island where a wonder woman comes from, Right, Yeah, that.
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  Speaker 3: Could have been my fault since I brought up Amazon's.
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  Speaker 1: I think it's your fault. Yeah, but you know, I
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  Speaker 1: mean this is an island where the women are are
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  Speaker 1: the leaders. They're domineering, they're you know, they have these
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  Speaker 1: very aggressive tendencies, right, They're running things. And so if
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  Speaker 1: you're speaking into a situation like that and you want
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  Speaker 1: to pull that back and correct something in that situation.
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  Speaker 1: What do you do? Will you address the opposite gender?
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  Speaker 1: And so I think that's part of what Paul is
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  Speaker 1: doing in chapter three in shifting into that male, male
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  Speaker 1: centered language. I think he's creating a polemic and basically saying, look, men,
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  Speaker 1: you're not to model. You're not to This isn't a takeover, right,
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  Speaker 1: whatever's happening in chapter two with these women who are
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  Speaker 1: exercising this sort of domineering authority, right, your job is
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: not to overcome them through the same sort of domineering authority.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: If you want to exercise oversight, here's what that looks like. Right.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: It does look like domineering authority. It looks like this
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: is a noble task. This is being above approach. This
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: is being the husband of one mine. This is about
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: being sober minded. This is about being self controlled, respectable, hospitable,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: able to teach like. It's about these softer characteristics that
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: are commensurate with one that has a hold on the
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: virtues of the community in the first place, a certain
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: level of maturity that is not unconcerned with's what's happening,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: but who is who recognizes that? As I like to say,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: they may be stirred, but not shaken. Right, little play
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: on James Bond. Right, they may be stirred by what
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: they see before them, with compassion or concern or what
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: have you, like, these are not people who are emotionally void,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: but they're not shaken. Their character doesn't really change. Who
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: they are is set and stable, and it's secure in
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: this understanding and mature stance within the Lord. And so
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: they can be stirred by what they see before them,
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: but they're they're going to approach that their concerns in
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: a way that is commensurate with the way of Christ.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: And I think that's the interesting sort of through line
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: that I see in between feet Timothy two and one
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Timothy three, is that the men are not supposed to
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: have this sort of hostile takeover and then be just
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: as domineering as these women who Paul is condemning and saying,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: I do not allow a woman to teach and have
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: authority over men. They're to exhibit oversight in a completely
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: different way, in a way that's commensurate with Christ. And
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: in that same breadth, then Paul is going to say,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: by the way, here, here's what a servant looks like
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: and they look oddly the same, ol, right, and so
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: oversight and servanthood are are almost like two sides at
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: the same coin here.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, one could certainly look at them and say, well,
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the list is longer for the overseer than for the servants.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I think that'd be a mistake to read too much
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: into that, not least because when you the description that
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: he's giving for the overseer, you know, statements like be
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: so reminded, be self controlled, be respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: not a drunkard, not violent, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: a lover of money. There's something oddly similar about all
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: those descriptions, right. It's as if Paul is spelling out
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: with specificity things that all belong to the base the
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: same basic understanding of character, in a particular kind of understanding.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: You know, if he took Jesus as the model for
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: what the truly virtuous person is, the truly high character
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: person is, he's parsoning that out in ways that maybe
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: never have to be said. If you're just looking at Jesus. Right,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: when the writers of the Gospels are showing you who
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Jesus is, they don't really need to spell out that
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Jesus is not a lover of money. Yeah, but if
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: we have this situation where people are coming into the
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: church with already this social stratification, where there really is
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: those who are the masters, those are the servants, those
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: are the overseers, those are the servants, right, it makes
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: sense to say to someone who's who's a master an overseer,
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: don't be a lover of money. In every bit the
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: same way that it's not really a meaningful thing to
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: say to a servant, not because it doesn't matter as
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: a general descriptor of people, but that's really not in
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: the social framework of concern for the servant. And unlike
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: a society where one might say, well, if you work hard,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: whether or not that's true, if you work hard, you
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: will get ahead, that's just not that society, right, It's
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: a deliberate, stratified society.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: And I think it's interesting that you have this repetition
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: of household throughout. So you have it in verse four,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: you have it in verse well, let's see twelve, and
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: then you have it again in verse fifteen. The first
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: two refer to the households of the one who oversees
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: and the deacon the diaconos. But then in verse fifteen,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: you also have the household of God, which is the
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Church of the Living God, a pillar and Butcher's of
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: the truth. And so part of I think what Paul
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: is doing here again is he's setting this idea up
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: of Look, we're in a particular social concept or construct
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: right where men normally are going to be the ones
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: who are ruling the household, and so that oversight and
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: that management of one's household has to be such that
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: it's reflective of what you would do in the household
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: of God. In other words, this household is not your
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: little fiefdom to do whatever it is you want to do.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: In right, it has to carry through the Kingdom of
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: God has to carry through even in the way that
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: you're managing your own household. I think that's an important
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: connection between this whole In this whole section at repetition
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: of household, it speaks to an administration. So oukos is
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: normally referred to as sort of an administrative unit. And
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: I know we're not used to thinking of a household
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: as an administrative unit. Although when you have like five kids,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: four kids, however, many kids I have now it starts
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: to feel really administrative, right, managing who's going to where
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: at what time, making sure they get there on time,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: when you know, when are the acts again, when you
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: need to start studying for that are there? You know,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: like there's a million little things to take care of.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: But it's not administrative in the sense of that we
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: think of administration all the time. It's a taking care
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: of the household and shepherding it forward is probably a
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: better vernacular to get at sort of what that OI
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: costs would have meant. And so even as we're reading
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: through this, I think part of the rationale behind the
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: male language is that if the males were the ones
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: who were really managing the households at the time, what
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Paul is trying to get at is that this management
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: of the household is to be a reflection of the
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: household of God. That's how all this is supposed to
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: sort of quote unquote trickle down right through again if
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: we go back to first Timothy two. That's probably part
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: of the problem there is that the domineering of whatever
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: women happen to be there at this moment are overturning
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: social convention in a way that might have implications for
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: the Gospel. That's a large reading into context, and there
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: are a lot behind that sort of statement. So I
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: don't want people to think like that's just a flippant Oh,
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: James's off his rocker and he's just throwing things out there. Right.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: There are a lot of things that I'm not addressing there.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: But I think that this it's important just to say
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: that as these social things are sort of in upheaval
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: in the Roman Empire, right, Paul is taking pains to
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: sort of pull them back and say, let's not be
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: associated with this sort of social upheaval. Let's show ourselves
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: to be peaceful, right, Let's show ourselves to be above approach.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Even you have this reference in verse twelve or I'm
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: sorry thirteen, for those who serve as deacons gain a
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: good standing for themselves and also great confidence in the
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: faith that is in Jesus Christ. That standing probably isn't
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: just within the community of faith, it's probably also outside
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: the community of faith. And so I think there's a
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: sense in which Paul is trying to get at sort
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: of a corporate witness aspect in the sections that we
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: would be wise not to ignore.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and something that's really instructive in the way that
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: you describe that. I think that's helpful and I think
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: that's right. Is the contrast between the posture Paul is
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: taking from the location Paul is writing, yes, compared to
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: the posture that we sort of take for granted. We've
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: said this before. Paul is writing as someone who has
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: no ability to change the social order.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: This is an empire. The emperor is not elected by
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: the electoral college, never mind the popular vote. Yeah, the
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: emperor just does the emperor because the emperor has seized
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: enough influence in control to be able to to force
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: the hand of the Senate of Rome right, and to
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: use that to then appoint people to the various districts
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: of the empire to do the will of the emperor. Right.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: The Senate lives ultimately or exists ultimately at the behest
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: of the emperor. Because of the power of the emperor.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: The average person like Paul, who's just a citizen, merely
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: lives within that state of affairs. It's not an opportunity
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: to go protest. We live in a time and a
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: place of a very different social order where we do
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: have the ability to varying degrees to affect some sort
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: of change, right, And maybe it's a different conversation and
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: a worthwhile conversation later at some other point to talk
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: about how we translate from one to the other. But
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: again we shouldn't read back our situation into Paul's. Paul
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: isn't advocating for the social change, but he also doesn't
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: have the ability to affect social change. It's just not
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: in his imaginary so within that he can begin to say,
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: this is how things are. And in light of this,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: is this being the way things are? What if we
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: have a different way of understanding, Yeah, the people within
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: this rather than you know, we've talked about the tension
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: that you see in Hegel's or in Nietzsche's understanding of
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: the master's slave right where the master wants to keep
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: the slave underneath him or her, the slave wants to
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: overcome the master and flip the script and become something new.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: And in Hegel's case, this is just the eternal struggle.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: In Nietzsch's case, this is a struggle we can escape
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: from altogether and become the true this true superman you
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: mentioned wonder Woman.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: We can bring up Superman.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: In Paul's case, it's just simply this is what it is.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: And I'm actually going to now within this structure redescribe
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: so to the degree that we can speak of male
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: and female environment. It's actually the subtle ways in which
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Paul is undermining. Right. He's not undermining by saying I
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: can change the system. He's saying within the church, we
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: have the opportunity. I like to I like to describe
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: it as window makers, to be window makers to a
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: new a new way of being, a more beautiful way
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: of being. We're overseers, those with those who have, those
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: with influence. Right, I'm describing you here in ways that
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: are gentle, right, that's his word, not violent, but gentle,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: that aren't quarrelsome that aren't lovers of money. But you're respectable.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: You're so reminded, you're self controlled. You're not you're not
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: marrying for the purpose of status or influence.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: We are collecting wives, which is a common thing in
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: order to create to create levels of political power, right,
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: affiliations here instead the husband of one wife, meaning there's
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: a recalibration here of what marriage is.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: Right, An it's.
• 32:13
  Speaker 2: An undermining of the system by describing if this is
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: the way things are, here's a better.
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: Way to do it.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Can you ultimately see yourselves? As we've talked before in
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: the case of interestingly enough, the Book of Ephesians, right,
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Timothy's in ephesis, in which those who have are re
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: understanding themselves in light of the person of Christ as
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: those who actually are servants of the other yeh, right,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: And those of you who are actually servants right. The
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: Diaconos the First Nations translation actually calls them those who
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: have the sacred task of helping others instead of saying, deacon,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: I think that's a helpful way putting it. Those who
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: have the sacred task of helping others already do so
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: in a way in which you're you're not being dishonest, right,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: It's an easy move for anyone still in this situation,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: you know, to pull a little bit more towards themselves
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: to make up for the gap that's substantial he's saying.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: In some ways, he's saying, don't think in those terms.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Think in terms of how the very work that I'm
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: doing can be reflective of the work of Christ, and
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: trust that provision will be there. It's sort of the
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: idea at play, and I.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: Think one of the more interesting place is to go.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: The least the ones I like to go to to
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: illustrate what you're talking about is for Samuel twelve. So
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: for Samuel twelve, please tell me. The Israelites have asked
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: God for a king. Like the rest of the nations.
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: Samuel is totally against this, but he goes to God
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: and God says, hey, don't worry about it. They're not
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: rejecting you, Samuel, or rejecting me as king over them.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: So first, Samuel twelve. Samuel goes back and he says, Okay,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: God is going to give you a king. Congratulations. Your
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: structure has changed, right. Your political system is now no
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: longer ruled by judges. You now have a king. Congratulations. Now,
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: let me lay out exactly what that means. And he
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: says something like this will go well with you if
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: you fear the Lord, and the king who God will
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: place over you also fears the Lord. It will not
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: go well with you if you don't fear the Lord
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: and keep his commandments, or the king above you doesn't
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: keep the Lord, and it doesn't fear the Lord and
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: keep his commandments. And so the interesting part is the
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: structure changes, right. There's a big difference between going from
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: having the judges to having a king. Right, there are
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: dynastic issues, there are centralized rulership issues. There's all these
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: different things that are going to change. But guess what,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: the underlying dynamic is exactly the same. In a very
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: real sense, nothing has changed. But congrats on the king.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: And I think to a large degree if we can
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: think in that category of these structures chain But within
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: these structures we act differently. We live according to that
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: sort of governing dynamic of understanding. What we're supposed to
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: do is we're supposed to fear God and we're supposed
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: to obey his commandments. We're supposed to imitate Christ. As
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: we get into the New Testament, like these are the
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: things that we are supposed to do. We are we
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: are a people on a mission of witness and testimony
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: to the God that we serve. Now, all of a sudden,
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: these structures take on much less importance than we normally
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: give them. Right where I sit in some sort of
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: weird social hierarchy is far less important than am I
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: within the situation that God has put me? Am I
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: serving him in an appropriate fashion? Am I still doing
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: what He's asking me? To do. It doesn't preclude change, right,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: it doesn't. It doesn't say, hey, these structures should never change.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: That's not the point. But the point is that within
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: the structures that we're in, there is often a through
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: line of faithfulness that we have to exercise that'll look
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: different depending on the structure, but the faithfulness aspect never
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: actually changes. And I think that's part of what we're
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: seeing here is that Paul is not advocating this structure
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: for all times and in all places, but he is
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: advocating it for at the very least ephesis. Right he's
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: writing Timothy Timothy's an Ephesis, He's at least advocating it
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: for ephesis. Likely given some of his other letters, he's
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: advocating it for a broader swath of the churches at
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: this time that he's writing to. But as things start
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: to pivot and change, it doesn't mean that there's not
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: a new way of faithfulness that we can envision once
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: those structures shift and change. And I don't think they
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: can change. It's not as if they're infinitely flexible, right,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, I do think that there
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: is a malleability appliability to them that allow us to
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: be faithful in different ways when those structures of society
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: sort of shift and change. So I always like the
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: first Samuel example. I think it's a helpful one.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's helpful as well. It's worth noting
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: that when the people of Israel wanted a king like
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: the nations, I've often heard it preached in a way
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: in which their problem was they wanted a king, but
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: the Torah had already made provision for a king. Yes,
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: the issue there is not the king per se. It's
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: like the nations, as you pointed out, and the idea
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: of giving you a king that's not like the nations.
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: What David is for much of but not all of
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: his term, what Solomon seems to be at the beginning
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: of his term but falls away from You see this,
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: You see the contrast in the relationship of the people
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: of biblical Israel to not just the surrounding nations, but
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: also to the very land. Right, that seems to be
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: more fruitful and bring forth out of that harmony a
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: greater abundance during those periods where things are a little
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: bit better.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this, it's this God people land triangle that
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: we've talked about.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: Right other places.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: But what that's supposed to, what that's supposed to set
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: up is in some sense a king that's unrecognizable from
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: the standard ways of viewing reality. It's utterly subversive, but
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: in a different kind of way, right. And and what
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: you can see in as a parallel here is that
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Paul's not saying I have any ability to affect the
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: social change in the way things work, or my job
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: here is to establish a new world order with a
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: new political and economic system.
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: Even if he even if he did.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Think in those terms, which it's not clear that he did,
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: he doesn't have the ability to affect that. But what
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: he does have the ability is to to make this
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: idea of the one who oversees and the one who
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: has the sacred task of serving, unrecognizable by the normal,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: dysfunctional or dystopian understanding that he sees around him, and
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: he sees that as an opportunity to win the Church
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: of Ephesus. That to your point, he doesn't just have
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: that for emphasis right, for whatever specifics there are here
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: for Ephesus, he has that vision in its own way,
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: for Colossian, for Thessaloniki, and for Antioch right, and for Jerusalem,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: he ultimately has that for Rome, right where he goes
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: to Rome, or he writes to Rome and he wants
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: to go to Rome, and he wants to go beyond
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: that to spain. The idea here is that he's attentive
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: to what the order is and what he needs to
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: do or what he needs to advocate to to make
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: some of the usual dystopian understandings unrecognizable.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: That's right, and I think that's particularly a play here
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: where and this is where. Just to kind of sum
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: this up, we need to be careful when we're reading
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: these overseers and the deacon's passage not to make these
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: paradigms of masculinity. I think two points here. Number one
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: is what I would read is a polemic against some
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: segment of the women within Ephesus who are trying to
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: sort of take over the social order. Paul fundamentally disagrees
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: with this move because it isn't commensurate in keeping with
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: the peaceable, quiet sort of witness that he's trying to
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: affect within the Christian community. There's some sort of an authoritarian,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: domineering impetus, an impulse that he doesn't like there, and
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: he doesn't want it in the church. This is not
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: the way this is supposed to work. This is a this,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: this creates a bad taste in our mouth.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: People look at this and they say, Wow, those Christians
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: are the liberals. They're trying to destroy Roman society. You know.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: I think he's concerned about witness, and again I think
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: there's good reason to think that I would go to
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: somewhere like a first Timothy six 's one where Paul
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: talks about the behavior of bond servants as potentially reviling
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: the word of God and teaching of the church. We
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: have something similar in tites to five, where he talks
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: about young women acting a certain way causing God's name
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: to be reviled. These are real concerns for what Paul
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: is seeing, and he's trying to manage the witness of
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: the community, probably in the midst of some sort of
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: social upheaval. So I think there's that aspect here, and that,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: to me is what prompts chapter three. In chapter three,
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: what he's saying is, look, you don't have to squelch rebellion, right,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: but this is what one who oversees the community. He
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: looks like, this is what one who oversees you ministers
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: within the who as the sacred, the sacred position of
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: helping others. As you said, like, this is how they
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: look and this is how they act. These are not
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: intended as a map for masculinity. These are characteristics that
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: the Christian community are supposed to cultivate in and of
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: in everyone. And I think he sets these people up,
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: the people who want to be an overseer of the
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: people who want to serve. These are the sort of
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: people that the Christian community is to be cultivating. These
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: are the sort of characteristics that they are supposed to
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: have together. And part of that comes from managing their
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: households well, not domineering their households, dominating their households right,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: but in managing their households well and recognizing that now
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: in Christ some things have changed, but we've still got
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: to hold this together. This still has to progress in
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: a particular way. It still has to be peaceable and
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: orderly as opposed to completely out of control. There's a
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: lot of texture there in this letter, and we can't
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: go deep enough in this shorter podcast really nail it down.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: But I think the at the end of the day,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: what we want to what we do want to say
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: is all of these characteristics really are most of them
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: are applied directly to women in other contexts. Some of
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: them are gestured toward another context. And so this is
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: not a roadmap for masculinity. This is a roadmap for
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: christ Like character, is the way I.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: Would put it right, and some of those other context
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: you're speaking of our as you said later on in
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: the same.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: Letter later on.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: So it's not as if we're reaching far and wide
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: to find this. No, what it is is it's a
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: roadmap for christ Like character, as you said, which is
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: specifically within the constructs of whatever the dynamics are for
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: Paul to pull people back to this understanding of the
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: kind of humility that's embodied in the God who didn't
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: operate under the under the under the way that one
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: might assume a god should right coming down and demonstrating
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: great power and stomping on people, but rather came down
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: and took this unassuming position as the son of a carpenter,
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: walking the streets as a rabbi, rejected by many, accepted
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: by many others, but advocating going all the way to
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: the cross.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: It's and it's that sort of mentality he's trying to
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: draw in to say, ultimately, whether you're a man or
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: a woman, this is what I expect a view, not
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: because I'm doing it by myself, but because, as he
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: again says in Philippians that we keep mentioning, he's wanting
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: us to imitate me, as imitate Christ. And therefore it's
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: it's a softening, it's a making unrecognizable. Yes, far from
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: the sorts of masculine power, or the inversion of that
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: to feminine power. Yes, And one could imagine the further
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: flipping back of the script, he's sort of actually cutting
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: all of that out, saying, consider, consider the sacred heart
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: and work of those who serve.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that household of God reference in ver Timothy three,
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: What is it I'm looking here? Fifteen Verse Timothy three
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: fifteen If I delay. He's writing these things so that
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: if Paul delays, you may know how one ought to
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: behave in the household of God, which is the Church
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: of the Living God. A pillar and butter's of the truth.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: And you just sit back and you think about that.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: And then he goes on great Indeed we confess with
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: the mystery of Godliness, and he talks basically about Christ's manifestation,
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: the flight, vindication by the spirit seen by angels, proclaim
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: among the nations believed on in the world, taken up
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: in glory. It roots this back very much in a
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: gospel oriented message. And so the connection between the way
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: that a household runs and the Gospel is at the
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: very least implicit in this section. I would argue it's
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: a little more than that, right, But because it comes
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: in the end, it has sort of this inverse argument.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: We kind of like our thesis and then our points
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: and then a conclusion. What Paul tends to do is
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: he lays all this out then makes his other sort
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: of thesis point like, Hey, everything you're doing in the
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: household of man, you're supposed to be doing in conformity
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: to the household of God, and in that you exhibit
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: the Gospel. And so I think there's just more here
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: than most of the time many of us would look at.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: And I think, you know, in some of the literature
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: I read, at least on biblical masculinity, I see these
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: passages come up in alle awful lot with reference to
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: what are the characteristics men should exhibit. I don't think
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: that's inappropriate so long as what we're really saying there
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: is these are characteristics that all people should exhibit, men included, Right,
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: So I feel like that was a good treatment. Let's
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: leave it there and we'll call it an episode.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: So thanks everybody for listening, Thanks all hush for being here,
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: and we'll catch on the next episode of Thinking Christian.
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: Take care everybody. I just want to take a second
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith
• 47:39
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