Latest / Tony & Sarah Unscripted / EP 18: From a Mother’s Strength to Advocacy — Part Two

Transcript

EP 18: From a Mother’s Strength to Advocacy — Part Two · Tony & Sarah Unscripted

• 0:09
  I think like
• 0:10
  any organization, it has to be modeled from the top.
• 0:14
  So if you're a correction officer and your supervisor is not modeling
• 0:18
  what we expect, how we expect them to act, how why would they act that way?
• 0:23
  Because when you're talking about everything that's happened to your son,
• 0:26
  my brain just says it's corporate bullying.
• 0:29
  They're bullying.
• 0:31
  And and and it has to be recognized because what is bullying?
• 0:36
  Cause it causes fear and sadness.
• 0:38
  And then that's where the anger comes in.
• 0:40
  It's very like straightforward
• 0:44
  five years.
• 0:48
  Oh, he did not have come to set up.
• 0:55
  You're not allowed to contact visit until it's adjudicated.
• 0:58
  So would you have like a window in front of the development
• 1:03
  of somebody whose prefrontal cortex has not yet closed,
• 1:06
  who is unable to hug their, their mother for five years?
• 1:12
  So, I mean, not this is her that this is who they're picking on.
• 1:15
  Right?
• 1:16
  But that had to be hard for you to say.
• 1:18
  I, I, I've always kind of wanted you talk a lot about Allison and your family.
• 1:30
  I don't know, I, I don't know
• 1:32
  go. Sorry.
• 1:33
  No. Don't know don't I mean, I
• 1:39
  I've always told you how incredibly strong
• 1:42
  I think you are,
• 1:46
  but sitting here listening to you.
• 1:48
  Oh, my God, what keeps you going,
• 1:51
  Dave?
• 1:52
  Today, step by step, I do.
• 1:55
  You allow yourself to get into that negative
• 1:58
  sort of dark space where you're just like, what?
• 2:02
  Oh, you know what I mean?
• 2:04
  Like, yeah, I wake up every morning thinking, wow, this is still happening,
• 2:08
  right?
• 2:13
  Well, I can park.
• 2:24
  It doesn't serve him.
• 2:28
  I'm not serving him.
• 2:29
  I'm not serving anybody who's living in incarceration.
• 2:32
  If I fall apart and I feel like
• 2:38
  it's a very,
• 2:40
  like a very much
• 2:43
  pushing against a headwind here,
• 2:46
  and it's designed to shut people down and shut people up.
• 2:52
  So I'm just,
• 2:54
  you know, for as long as I live,
• 2:57
  I'm not going to.
• 3:03
  And I do like I do believe that there's got to be
• 3:08
  I try and think about
• 3:09
  what's the lesson here, you know.
• 3:13
  I'm not I'm not going to say, why did this happen?
• 3:16
  You know, why did this happen to him?
• 3:18
  What you know should happen.
• 3:20
  I you know, I don't know why,
• 3:22
  but this is but this is where we this is where we're at.
• 3:26
  So I have a choice.
• 3:28
  I can either fall apart, which I did,
• 3:31
  as you know, for when this first happened,
• 3:35
  I did crawl into a hole for a little bit
• 3:38
  so I can either fall apart
• 3:40
  or I can do something about it, and maybe I can't do anything for it.
• 3:45
  I was poor Ellis is stuck in this.
• 3:48
  Yeah, but he encourages me.
• 3:51
  He's like, mom, don't.
• 3:53
  Don't let them stop you.
• 3:56
  You know,
• 3:56
  he realizes that he is in a vulnerable position
• 4:00
  because of some of the advocacy work that I do and from speaking out.
• 4:05
  But he is the strongest person I have ever met.
• 4:10
  And, you know,
• 4:13
  I just admire you so much like I, I,
• 4:15
  I'm just sitting here saying wow, like you could have done nothing.
• 4:20
  Right.
• 4:21
  But you chose to really advocate for people
• 4:25
  who are not being treated with dignity and respect.
• 4:28
  And I just think that part of that might help keep you going.
• 4:32
  You know what I mean?
• 4:32
  If you didn't have all of all of this and you're doing such great work
• 4:35
  and you're making a difference, and for all the people that you don't know
• 4:40
  you're helping, I want to say thank you on their behalf
• 4:43
  because you are helping a lot of people, especially young kids.
• 4:47
  And, you know, there are most vulnerable in that situation,
• 4:54
  right?
• 4:54
  Yeah. I didn't know this was happening.
• 4:55
  Right.
• 4:56
  Like I said, nothing if I, I knew nothing right before.
• 5:00
  Yeah. I mean, vomit on your bed for two weeks.
• 5:02
  I mean, I can't get over that in my entire life.
• 5:06
  So if I said nothing, nobody would know.
• 5:10
  Exactly.
• 5:10
  And if nobody knows, nobody's going to do anything about it. So,
• 5:15
  I mean, things aren't happening is happening as swiftly as I wish they would.
• 5:20
  Yeah, things are happening.
• 5:21
  And there are a lot of, you know, there there are people out there
• 5:25
  who really want to see change, and there are people who are working in
• 5:28
  the Department of Corrections who really wanted to operate better.
• 5:32
  Yeah, I ran into a lot of when I was at, you know, seeing Jane Doe.
• 5:36
  There was a lot of people that were, you know, really rallying around her.
• 5:40
  But also, I went to Danbury
• 5:41
  Prison once and I spoke, in front of the women's prison.
• 5:45
  They showed my documentary, and there was a lot of people there, too,
• 5:49
  that were really trying to advocate for, you know, the residents.
• 5:52
  I don't like to say inmates.
• 5:54
  I don't know why, you know, incarcerated person. So.
• 5:58
  Okay. All right. That's good to know.
• 6:00
  It's good to know the language.
• 6:01
  But then I often I also think about Chase because I know you mentioned, last
• 6:10
  he really struggled with
• 6:12
  the guilt with guilt feeling guilt from,
• 6:18
  initially how he handled and and was dealing with all this.
• 6:21
  Correct.
• 6:22
  Yeah. Jay Jay's is remarkable.
• 6:24
  This is his brother just. Okay.
• 6:26
  So he is a senior at Duke this year.
• 6:28
  Senior already? Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
• 6:31
  I know we're focused on that.
• 6:33
  On that. Alice.
• 6:35
  Yeah. Wow.
• 6:35
  He really is remarkable. He's
• 6:38
  doing incredibly well.
• 6:41
  His brother has been living in incarceration since he was a freshman
• 6:44
  in high school.
• 6:45
  Oh, wow.
• 6:46
  He's a senior in college.
• 6:49
  They still maintain a very close
• 6:53
  relationship. So,
• 6:57
  in the beginning, Ellis was psychotic, and
• 7:03
  it was very challenging,
• 7:05
  particularly for a 14 year old. Right?
• 7:07
  Yeah.
• 7:09
  No idea. I mean, Ellis really pushed
• 7:12
  Chase away in the beginning.
• 7:14
  He was he was not.
• 7:15
  Well, so now that he's recovered,
• 7:19
  he he's, their relationship is,
• 7:24
  you know, very, very strong again,
• 7:28
  I think I don't know if guilt is the right word to describe Chase.
• 7:33
  I feel like Chase holds a level of responsibility
• 7:37
  that is far too much for a 21
• 7:41
  year old kid, you know?
• 7:44
  Really?
• 7:45
  Yeah.
• 7:45
  So he really, like, in his mind, he is.
• 7:49
  You know, he's charged himself with
• 7:52
  taking care of Ellis and making sure that Ellis is okay.
• 7:56
  And he's, you know, he's he's doing everything right.
• 8:01
  You know, he makes a mistake and he and we're like, good.
• 8:06
  Like,
• 8:07
  finally.
• 8:09
  Yes, go go get, you know, go mix it up a little bit, get into trouble.
• 8:14
  You know, I was certainly not an angel when I was his age.
• 8:17
  I can see how that would be.
• 8:18
  He trying to be, like, the perfect song.
• 8:20
  You know, this model child and this model person, and, you know, I.
• 8:26
  I want him to experience what,
• 8:29
  you know,
• 8:31
  kids are supposed to experience, but he really is,
• 8:35
  you know, he he seems to me
• 8:38
  like a very happy, fulfilled.
• 8:42
  That's wonderful person. It's great.
• 8:44
  And he and the fact that he is he,
• 8:48
  he he lives with gratitude and.
• 8:54
  I mean, all I want is my kids to be happy.
• 8:56
  I think it's all any of us want.
• 8:57
  Right? So
• 9:02
  he's doing well.
• 9:02
  I think he is. He's doing well.
• 9:04
  And he recognizes
• 9:07
  people are not.
• 9:08
  People don't live one way.
• 9:10
  You know, one thing that I've learned, you know, my my
• 9:14
  some of my biggest lessons, my biggest lesson is acceptance.
• 9:18
  You just have to accept some things.
• 9:21
  So. Yeah.
• 9:23
  Yeah, that's a hard one.
• 9:24
  Except it's been a really big lesson for me.
• 9:27
  And that we are human beings.
• 9:29
  We are complicated creatures.
• 9:31
  We are not happy or sad.
• 9:34
  We can be both.
• 9:36
  Both can be true.
• 9:37
  And I think Chase knows that.
• 9:39
  I think his dad, you know, his dad knows that.
• 9:43
  I know that.
• 9:44
  And I think that that lesson or that understanding
• 9:47
  and realization is a lot of what gets us through.
• 9:51
  I can fall apart one minute, I can,
• 9:55
  testify the next, and then
• 9:57
  I can go out and meet my friends and, you know, go for a bike ride.
• 10:01
  It can all be in the can all be in the same space.
• 10:04
  You can hurt and heal at the same time for sure.
• 10:07
  Yeah, true. Both can be true.
• 10:09
  And and you can have a fulfilling life that way.
• 10:12
  Yeah. So balanced.
• 10:14
  He's doing okay.
• 10:15
  He is doing okay.
• 10:17
  We are.
• 10:17
  Was there did you guys start at a different place when you.
• 10:20
  So when this first happened what was that like for the two of you
• 10:22
  if you don't mind me asking.
• 10:24
  So we have when it comes to our kids,
• 10:29
  that is the one place that I think we're very much in lockstep.
• 10:34
  So we.
• 10:37
  I mean, you know, we're we're not together anymore.
• 10:40
  So as you know, and
• 10:43
  but regardless of what
• 10:45
  our disagreements between the two of us may be,
• 10:49
  I think we both have the capacity to think about what's best for our children.
• 10:53
  So whether we want something or not, it's not what matters.
• 10:57
  We think about kids and we will acquiesce to that.
• 11:02
  That's wonderful.
• 11:02
  So I that's what's most important to both of us.
• 11:07
  And I think especially now with this experience,
• 11:12
  it is very easy to let everything else fall by the wayside.
• 11:16
  You know, when something really kick your ass.
• 11:19
  Yeah, it really puts your life in perspective. So,
• 11:24
  I, I, I think we parent together
• 11:26
  really well and our kids are 21 and 25, but we're still parenting.
• 11:30
  Oh, it's so is it okay to ask, like, when he'll be released or.
• 11:35
  We don't know. Do you don't know that do they?
• 11:37
  Is that like the did they give him a time when he will be out of prison?
• 11:42
  Yeah. So,
• 11:59
  we'll see.
• 12:00
  Sentencing modification, what he did.
• 12:07
  But I'm very close to this system now, and I love that sentences
• 12:18
  that other people are serving for
• 12:21
  far more heinous,
• 12:24
  offenses.
• 12:25
  He is this sentence is absurd.
• 12:28
  So it really is. It is it is outrageous.
• 12:31
  What was the sentence?
• 12:32
  Ten years.
• 12:33
  Ten years and the sentence is ten years. Now
• 12:37
  the sentence initially was going to be 5 to 10.
• 12:41
  The reason five was the bottom number is because
• 12:45
  with first degree assault, which is what he was charged with
• 12:49
  in the state of Connecticut, it holds a five year mandatory minimum.
• 12:53
  So he couldn't get less than five.
• 12:55
  So that so that that was happening no matter what.
• 12:59
  Now the judge
• 13:02
  he got like I don't want to recharge.
• 13:04
  So the judge had said, all right, 5 to 10.
• 13:08
  But then argument of, you know, would the ability to argue it.
• 13:12
  So it would be somewhere between 5 and 10.
• 13:15
  And at that time
• 13:20
  there were so many there were so many things going through our head.
• 13:23
  So we're trying to figure out, do we,
• 13:27
  do we argue between 5 and 10 or
• 13:31
  I mean, he was psychotic or do we file
• 13:33
  for not guilty by reason of insanity, which I
• 13:37
  we came to find out is not a good idea in the state of Connecticut.
• 13:41
  So what do we do?
• 13:44
  And we were undecided.
• 13:48
  We couldn't we were just.
• 13:49
  It's so it's hard to accept.
• 13:51
  It's so stressful. You have so little time.
• 13:54
  You know, you get called up and there's no, you know, there's no,
• 13:58
  like, discussion.
• 13:59
  We were, you know, we were unable to connect with Ellis's victim.
• 14:04
  We were, you know, there were so many things going on.
• 14:07
  So he did not take that.
• 14:11
  He did not accept that initially.
• 14:16
  And then,
• 14:17
  you know, we went home and we talked to Ellis.
• 14:19
  There's no you know, we can't talk to him.
• 14:21
  And he's a kid and he's by himself.
• 14:24
  So he didn't accept it.
• 14:26
  And then we go home and we, you know, talked to him on the phone
• 14:27
  and then we said we this is really what we need to do.
• 14:31
  And the judge said, you should have taken it the first time, Tim.
• 14:34
  That's it.
• 14:34
  So it's just like, oh, it's not a whim.
• 14:37
  It's not that one.
• 14:39
  I was there when we were there when you came.
• 14:41
  Thank you so much for doing that.
• 14:42
  Yes, well of course, but but it was just like he doesn't care.
• 14:46
  No, he couldn't care less. The judge just.
• 14:48
  And you can't, like, go back and say, wait a minute.
• 14:51
  Like something's wrong here. Like, I know I don't.
• 14:54
  I mean, I know this is not law and order, but I'm just
• 15:04
  Ellis.
• 15:05
  Well, because that's not going to happen in prison.
• 15:07
  So have Ellis a full set of.
• 15:10
  Yeah.
• 15:10
  For Ellis while he was, living in incarceration
• 15:15
  from an outside,
• 15:18
  you know, from the outside provider and,
• 15:23
  you know, very highly accredited providers.
• 15:28
  It's very clear what happened. So.
• 15:30
  But I don't think that it doesn't even get the the judges appointed,
• 15:35
  even when he doesn't want him. Nothing. He doesn't care. No.
• 15:38
  We had binder, you know, this thing of letters
• 15:42
  from people who knew him, you know, teachers,
• 15:47
  you know,
• 15:49
  he, he he volunteered people from unified sports.
• 15:51
  Just a rabbi, you know, everybody,
• 15:55
  you know, peers, everyone
• 15:58
  didn't want to see it. See that?
• 16:00
  I don't think that's right.
• 16:01
  It's it's not right. I don't understand it.
• 16:03
  So there's nothing that like can you appeal like that?
• 16:07
  Sentencing. I don't know if I'm using the right.
• 16:09
  He's trying to actually. Yeah.
• 16:11
  So he is trying to it's very difficult to appeal something when you plan.
• 16:15
  But he is trying to he the state
• 16:19
  did assign him an attorney to appeal.
• 16:22
  Okay. And
• 16:24
  but there's nothing I mean, he's in prison
• 16:27
  and he hasn't heard from this person and, you know.
• 16:31
  Yeah, I mean, and then the little things like that,
• 16:34
  he had to get paperwork notarized, you know.
• 16:38
  Well, he's incarcerated.
• 16:40
  Yes. So, you know, try getting that request.
• 16:44
  They make it feel possible.
• 16:45
  Yes. And, you know, so I actually reached out to somebody
• 16:49
  because he, you know, he always tries to do everything by himself.
• 16:51
  So he follows the proper channels
• 16:53
  and he submits the paperwork and he makes the request.
• 16:56
  And then six months goes by and then I email somebody and then they notarize it.
• 17:00
  It shouldn't have to be like that.
• 17:02
  They should be able to just, you know, same thing.
• 17:04
  You know, he tries to order a pair of sneakers.
• 17:06
  He's been waiting for sneakers for several months now.
• 17:08
  So that's why he's in the top of my, you know, top of mind.
• 17:11
  And, you know, he fills out the paperwork. It's
• 17:13
  supposed to take anywhere from two weeks to eight weeks, and it's been months.
• 17:17
  And, you know, and of course, you can't just bring a pair of sneakers for him. No.
• 17:22
  Oh you can't. No. Oh, geez.
• 17:26
  I didn't know that no I didn't.
• 17:27
  Oh, so you have to buy prison sneakers or.
• 17:31
  Yeah. It's so.
• 17:33
  Oh my God.
• 17:34
  Yes and yes.
• 17:35
  And the state makes money off the contract and.
• 17:37
  Yeah, I mean that's that's not good.
• 17:41
  Yeah.
• 17:42
  Yeah yeah. My gosh, I didn't know that.
• 17:45
  I will say that I'm thrilled to hear that
• 17:49
  he's doing as well as he is.
• 17:51
  Thank you.
• 17:51
  Yeah.
• 17:52
  And and and I'm grateful for that.
• 17:54
  Yeah.
• 17:54
  And I mean, the very most important thing is that
• 17:59
  one day when I have my son back
• 18:03
  experience,
• 18:09
  you know, down,
• 18:16
  it's a toss up.
• 18:17
  I mean,
• 18:19
  people don't realize that you can't heal from schizophrenia.
• 18:21
  Yeah, numbers are much higher.
• 18:23
  I didn't know that until that for.
• 18:25
  Yeah, yeah.
• 18:28
  But there are people who don't.
• 18:30
  And he is one that.
• 18:34
  You know, I saw him when he wasn't well.
• 18:38
  And I know and I have connected
• 18:41
  with many families who are still in that,
• 18:45
  in that situation. And,
• 18:49
  you know, we have a lot to be grateful for.
• 18:52
  So I have you
• 18:58
  gone to somebody who helps you deal with
• 19:01
  those images and memories in your mind?
• 19:04
  And I say that because.
• 19:08
  I have some images of, of my own child
• 19:11
  that I think of that are hard, like really hard to remember. And,
• 19:16
  and I would love to just get rid of that.
• 19:19
  Yeah.
• 19:20
  Yeah.
• 19:20
  Because, you know, I,
• 19:24
  I think that's, that's the hard part of his mother's.
• 19:26
  Right.
• 19:26
  And many mothers may step back and say, I can't, I can't handle seeing that and I,
• 19:30
  I can't, you know, so
• 19:31
  but I, I was in everything as deep as I could be as, as a view.
• 19:35
  We'll see the good, we'll see the bad. We'll do everything we can.
• 19:38
  But then I, I would imagine that after all this Demi's when he's home
• 19:46
  that there's going to have to be some work on yourself.
• 19:49
  There is, but there's also there's
• 19:52
  I think there's value in the discomfort or
• 19:56
  for certain things.
• 19:57
  Yeah I agree that's interesting.
• 19:59
  So while I have,
• 20:02
  you know, while there are memories
• 20:05
  that I would just as soon erase,
• 20:09
  I really think growth happens when you're discomfort.
• 20:12
  I'm a different person than I was before this happened.
• 20:16
  And some people might think
• 20:21
  it's better or worse, but I, I believe that
• 20:27
  who who.
• 20:28
  This has changed me into being
• 20:32
  is important for me and for,
• 20:36
  for others.
• 20:37
  So. Yeah.
• 20:40
  And I and because we're friends,
• 20:42
  I know that you're a different person to with your own experiences.
• 20:46
  So I do think that, Yeah, change happens.
• 20:50
  I mean, talk about your life
• 20:52
  going in a direction that you probably never expected, right?
• 20:56
  It's never going to change.
• 20:57
  So, you know, there are a few things in life that I'm certain.
• 21:01
  One thing I know is that I.
• 21:02
  I'm an advocate forever.
• 21:04
  No good at of prison.
• 21:05
  I don't think he's going to be in.
• 21:07
  I don't know what he's going to do.
• 21:09
  He's got to deal with this.
• 21:10
  But this is this is something that I am doing from now on is wonderful to be
• 21:17
  because the solution is clear.
• 21:20
  Yeah. So it's not like I'm throwing my hands.
• 21:23
  I'm like, what are we ever going to do?
• 21:24
  How can we ever do something about this?
• 21:27
  We can fix this.
• 21:28
  We're we can be we can do better.
• 21:31
  So I'm going to keep fighting for better for, you know, you're going to see me.
• 21:36
  I'm going to be 85 years old way, you know, at the cafe.
• 21:41
  Yeah. This is this is never going to end.
• 21:43
  And what it's so slow going
• 21:47
  because, you know, you examine,
• 21:50
  you know, you take a step, you look at it, you're trying to figure it out.
• 21:53
  And it's very, very slow moving.
• 21:56
  But it's moving. We're going to get there.
• 21:59
  So yeah I'm just so grateful for what you're doing.
• 22:02
  Me too.
• 22:03
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 22:04
  Because you're really educating me.
• 22:06
  I mean, it's sad.
• 22:07
  I mean, I've seen it kind of firsthand with Jane Doe.
• 22:10
  But just the thought of a young person being in that situation
• 22:15
  with no love around them
• 22:16
  and then having to sleep in their vomit for two weeks is just today.
• 22:20
  Oh, two days.
• 22:20
  Okay. All right. Stew day.
• 22:22
  Two days is still two days. But.
• 22:25
  But thank you for everything that you're doing.
• 22:27
  Honestly, I appreciate you.
• 22:29
  You know what?
• 22:30
  Thank you.
• 22:32
  If it resonates with somebody.
• 22:34
  Yeah.
• 22:34
  One more person writes a letter to the governor's office.
• 22:37
  Yeah. One more person asked for change.
• 22:40
  One more person demands that we do better when we can.
• 22:43
  We'll get there.
• 22:44
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 22:45
  Well. You're incredible.
• 22:46
  You know how I feel about you. Absolutely amazing.
• 22:49
  Thank you for all of you. Done.
• 22:50
  And thank you for being right back on with us.
• 22:52
  Okay.
• 22:54
  If you did not see Denise first episode with us, check it out.
• 22:57
  Episode four. And thank you so much for being with us today.