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How to win (or nearly win) a writing competition · The Book Deal

• 0:46
  Tina: on Madeline.
• 0:47
  Tina: We have a lot to discuss today.
• 0:49
  Madeleine: We do.
• 0:49
  Madeleine: We do.
• 0:50
  Madeleine: I
• 0:52
  Tina: with you.
• 0:52
  Tina: You've been busy.
• 0:54
  Tina: You've had a
• 0:54
  Madeleine: have been busy.
• 0:55
  Madeleine: It's been a crazy fortnight.
• 0:58
  Tina: the last time we chatted,
• 0:59
  Madeleine: Hmm.
• 1:00
  Tina: you weren't feeling very well, were you?
• 1:02
  Tina: You just got back from Bali and you know, had what we thought was Bali belly, but, uh, turns out not to be the case, does it?
• 1:11
  Madeleine: No, I was two days away from being hospitalized with appendicitis.
• 1:15
  Tina: Hmm.
• 1:15
  Madeleine: our chat.
• 1:16
  Madeleine: So yeah, that was a fun experience, but I'm all good.
• 1:19
  Madeleine: Everyone.
• 1:20
  Madeleine: I'm doing completely well back home.
• 1:22
  Madeleine: And well,
• 1:22
  Tina: So, while you're at home suffering appendicitis that you didn't yet know about though, um, who would have imagined that you, when you're sitting there in, in pain and discomfort, that you'd get a phone call from Caroline Overington?
• 1:38
  Madeleine: wild.
• 1:38
  Madeleine: Uh, so, and this is probably TMI for our listeners, but I'd just come back from the toilet.
• 1:44
  Madeleine: I was lying in bed.
• 1:45
  Madeleine: It was.
• 1:46
  Madeleine: Monday, I should have been working, but I was super, super sick.
• 1:50
  Madeleine: Um, and so I was just about to go to sleep, back to sleep.
• 1:53
  Madeleine: It was like 9 30 AM and, uh, my phone rang and it was an unknown number.
• 1:59
  Madeleine: And I have this thing where if it's an unknown number, sometimes I'll just let it ring out and then I'll Google it.
• 2:04
  Madeleine: I think that's the thing our generation do.
• 2:07
  Tina: Oh, yeah, I do.
• 2:08
  Tina: Mm hmm.
• 2:08
  Madeleine: the anxiety about, you know, who's on the other side.
• 2:11
  Madeleine: But for some reason I was like, Oh, I better answer this.
• 2:14
  Madeleine: And.
• 2:14
  Madeleine: Yeah, and on the other end, so I was like, hello, she's like, Oh, hi, this is Caroline Irvington.
• 2:20
  Madeleine: I'm the literary editor at the Australian.
• 2:23
  Madeleine: I was like, hi.
• 2:25
  Madeleine: She's like, so I had, I did find out the week before that I was on the short list.
• 2:30
  Madeleine: Uh, so HarperCollins had contacted me for the Australian fiction prize,
• 2:34
  Tina: So you had been shortlisted for the Australian Fiction Prize,
• 2:38
  Madeleine: yes, which was very exciting.
• 2:40
  Madeleine: So I did know, but I didn't know that Caroline was when Caroline would be calling.
• 2:43
  Madeleine: So they said just a heads up, Caroline will be calling.
• 2:47
  Madeleine: And so I then had this very rapid fire two minute interview with Caroline where she was asking me all the questions about my writing career.
• 2:56
  Madeleine: And I was trying to think through some interesting things to say.
• 2:59
  Madeleine: And then she said, um, and I told her about my new book, the butterfly women for next year.
• 3:03
  Madeleine: She's like, okay, pitch me that.
• 3:05
  Madeleine: So I had this, I was
• 3:07
  Tina: right.
• 3:07
  Tina: On the spot pitch.
• 3:09
  Madeleine: in bed in my pajamas,
• 3:10
  Tina: my gosh.
• 3:12
  Tina: Oh my gosh.
• 3:13
  Madeleine: but I did it.
• 3:14
  Madeleine: And yeah, very exciting.
• 3:16
  Madeleine: Then I was in the paper on, on Saturday, which I've never been before.
• 3:19
  Madeleine: So, um, Yeah.
• 3:21
  Madeleine: It's all been happening.
• 3:22
  Tina: Australian as well.
• 3:23
  Tina: So, um, so we wanted to talk today about competitions and this was a, this is a really good reason to talk about them.
• 3:30
  Tina: Can you tell us a little bit about the Australian Fiction Prize?
• 3:33
  Tina: Okay.
• 3:34
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 3:34
  Madeleine: So it's actually the inaugural prize, uh, this year's is the inaugural prize.
• 3:40
  Madeleine: Uh, so originally, um, I believe there was the Vogels, which was for riders who are under the age of 35 and that's been running for years and they've had some great success with that, but they thought this year they'll try something a little bit different.
• 3:54
  Madeleine: So, um, and that I think was with Alan and Unwin originally.
• 3:57
  Madeleine: So the Australians now working with HarperCollins, um, to create a new prize and it's actually open to all writers, no matter how old they are, um, and what stage of their career they're in.
• 4:08
  Madeleine: So if you're an emerging writer, if you're previously published before, it's open to everybody.
• 4:13
  Madeleine: Uh, so this, this year, they received quite a number of.
• 4:16
  Madeleine: Um, submissions, which is fantastic.
• 4:18
  Madeleine: So I think it was about 500, um, which is great for the prize.
• 4:22
  Madeleine: And the winner gets to win a 20, 000 cash prize, plus a publishing contract, probably the most exciting thing with Harper Collins and an advance of 15, 000.
• 4:32
  Madeleine: So it's a big, big, big, exciting prize.
• 4:35
  Madeleine: And to be shortlisted was yeah, such an honor, I think for my, this is, and this is for my second book, not the butterfly women, but for my second unpublished unpublished book.
• 4:44
  Tina: That's incredible.
• 4:46
  Tina: Incredible.
• 4:46
  Tina: Madeline.
• 4:47
  Tina: Um, I have so many questions about this.
• 4:49
  Tina: Don't really quite know where to start.
• 4:51
  Tina: Um,
• 4:52
  Madeleine: feel like I'm being interviewed.
• 4:54
  Madeleine: This is really strange.
• 4:55
  Madeleine: I'm, this is going to be practice for next year, I think.
• 4:58
  Tina: It's good because I, I want to know questions, but not just me, but our listeners also want to know everything about it.
• 5:05
  Tina: Um, so I guess so great prize, great competition.
• 5:12
  Tina: Why, and it's awesome.
• 5:14
  Tina: Isn't it?
• 5:15
  Tina: You can, anyone can enter.
• 5:16
  Tina: So emerging authors, people who already have books that are established.
• 5:20
  Tina: And, uh, it's just, it's good practice.
• 5:23
  Tina: It's good exposure and get, and if being the actual winner is just that amazing prize that you mentioned, can I ask why you wanted to enter Madeline?
• 5:33
  Madeleine: hmm.
• 5:33
  Madeleine: Yeah, it's a, that's a good one.
• 5:35
  Madeleine: Um, so this book, this is my second book.
• 5:38
  Madeleine: It's quite different.
• 5:40
  Madeleine: I think to the butterfly women, it's a contemporary fiction book.
• 5:44
  Madeleine: Um, and it's quite personal, I think to me, because it's inspired by some of the great female friendships that I've had, um, uh, over the years and last, so I guess taking a step back.
• 5:55
  Madeleine: So last year, um, I, this is the book I wrote in that hurry.
• 5:59
  Madeleine: I finished it in the plane to Japan, had that real sense of urgency when writing it, which is great.
• 6:05
  Madeleine: And I feel like when you've got a sense of urgency, the writing really flows really well.
• 6:09
  Madeleine: So I had that really nice period with this book.
• 6:11
  Madeleine: So I finished it in September last year.
• 6:14
  Madeleine: So I've actually been sitting on it for ages and I think because I just wanted to put it on pause a bit while I was going through the editorial process with the butterfly women.
• 6:25
  Madeleine: I just let it sort of sit there.
• 6:28
  Madeleine: I, you know, did a few edits, sent it around to a few people, got some comments and feedback.
• 6:32
  Madeleine: So it's certainly not something I finished and then straight away would submit to the prize.
• 6:37
  Madeleine: It's, it's been, you know, 12 months.
• 6:39
  Madeleine: And then I saw this prize come up and most of the time, I think, You might be in this situation too.
• 6:44
  Madeleine: Sometimes competitions and prizes, I think are excellent.
• 6:47
  Madeleine: And I didn't even think about them for my first book.
• 6:50
  Madeleine: Like I just, I didn't really know about them.
• 6:52
  Madeleine: So I didn't submit to it.
• 6:53
  Madeleine: But when I was like reading up about prizes and competitions, it's actually a great way to already generate hype and stand out a bit, even, even a shortlisting.
• 7:04
  Madeleine: is a really good way to stand, get your book some exposure, I think.
• 7:08
  Madeleine: Um, and so, but a lot of competitions now are no longer, we're no longer really eligible for because we're not considered emerging.
• 7:15
  Tina: Yeah, that's right.
• 7:16
  Madeleine: We're sort of on that track.
• 7:18
  Madeleine: So this one came up and I thought, well, this is a great opportunity, um, because it's open to everybody.
• 7:24
  Madeleine: Um, and I thought, well, maybe I'll just submit it as just a backup, just in case, you know, I'm not going to send it out widely.
• 7:31
  Madeleine: I'll just give it a try and see what happens.
• 7:33
  Madeleine: really obviously respect HarperCollins Australia and some of the authors that they've published as well.
• 7:38
  Madeleine: So, you know, they're a great reputable publisher.
• 7:41
  Madeleine: So yeah, I didn't really, I kind of forgot about it, just submitted it and forgot about it.
• 7:45
  Madeleine: And, uh, yeah.
• 7:47
  Madeleine: And then when I was, um, and so the book, I think, I did a bit of research about what they were looking for for the prize.
• 7:54
  Madeleine: And I think this particular book suited that, uh, because it's, you know, it's about, it's a women's story.
• 8:02
  Madeleine: It's about female friendships.
• 8:03
  Madeleine: It's about, um, uh, it's like growth and there's a mystery and, and it's,
• 8:08
  Tina: dead bodies?
• 8:10
  Madeleine: there's, there's a, yep.
• 8:10
  Madeleine: Couple of dub dub bodies.
• 8:12
  Madeleine: There's a ghost.
• 8:12
  Madeleine: It's a lot of fun.
• 8:15
  Madeleine: Um, and yeah, it's, it's sort of, it was written at a time where I was just observing lots of my female friends in the early thirties going through a lot.
• 8:24
  Madeleine: Um, and so a lot of those stories were coming through.
• 8:26
  Madeleine: So I really wanted this book to be, have a lot of hype around it.
• 8:30
  Madeleine: Cause I think it's a story that I really want out there.
• 8:33
  Tina: Yeah.
• 8:34
  Madeleine: So yeah, that's probably why I submitted it.
• 8:36
  Tina: Yeah.
• 8:37
  Tina: And I think, did I see in their submissions or advertisement around the prize, the competition that, um, it's, was also good for people who wanted to, who were already published, but wanted to change, uh, tact.
• 8:50
  Tina: Did I, did I read that?
• 8:51
  Tina: That was a specific thing that they had mentioned.
• 8:53
  Tina: If you, if you've written something a little bit different and you want to change genres or something like that, it was,
• 8:57
  Madeleine: Exactly.
• 8:58
  Madeleine: And that's exactly right, Tina.
• 8:59
  Madeleine: And this is something that I don't think we've spoken about on the podcast, but often, and it's not definitely not my experience to date, but there, I have heard stories of people who want to try and authors who want to try and change genres.
• 9:14
  Madeleine: And it's, they get a bit of resistance from their publishers or their agents because.
• 9:19
  Madeleine: They're known in a certain genre.
• 9:21
  Madeleine: So if you're a crime writer and then you decide, actually, I want to go and write romance, maybe, maybe if you're a big name, then that's okay.
• 9:29
  Madeleine: You could, you can dabble, but if you're trying to establish your career, it's, it can be a little bit tricky.
• 9:35
  Madeleine: So for me, jumping from historical to contemporary, um, you know, it's not, I'm not saying at all that I've had any pushback at all, um, about it.
• 9:43
  Madeleine: Um, everyone's been around me.
• 9:45
  Madeleine: It's been really super supportive about it.
• 9:47
  Madeleine: But it's nice to have a bit of, I think, support behind that.
• 9:51
  Madeleine: Um, when you do decide to go into a different genre to say, Hey, actually I can do this.
• 9:57
  Madeleine: Um, it's, it's not just a whim.
• 10:00
  Tina: Yeah.
• 10:00
  Tina: Yeah.
• 10:01
  Tina: And you've got to write what you're feeling, don't you?
• 10:03
  Tina: If you, that was the book that, you know, you were writing at the time that came to you and you, you had to do it, how can you not write it and yeah, it will, um, it will find a home.
• 10:12
  Tina: I'm certain.
• 10:14
  Tina: Yes.
• 10:15
  Tina: Especially after this.
• 10:16
  Madeleine: it's, amazing the shortlist because most of the shortlist have published books before.
• 10:21
  Madeleine: So they are established writers.
• 10:23
  Madeleine: So, you know, people are just looking for different ways and avenues and the winner.
• 10:27
  Madeleine: So Catherine Johnson, who, um, her book sounds amazing set on Mariah Island in Tassie.
• 10:32
  Madeleine: It sounds fantastic.
• 10:34
  Madeleine: And I'm so thrilled for her.
• 10:35
  Madeleine: I think she's published four books in the past as well.
• 10:38
  Madeleine: So, um, you know, it, it, I guess it sort of shows, doesn't it?
• 10:42
  Madeleine: That prize is competitions.
• 10:45
  Madeleine: Always look out for them throughout a writer's career because they can be really important and the writing journey doesn't just stop when you find a publisher.
• 10:53
  Madeleine: Like you're always searching for ways to make yourself stand out.
• 10:57
  Tina: Yeah, that's right.
• 10:58
  Tina: Cause it's a massive accolade, you know, long listing as well.
• 11:01
  Tina: I don't know if they released a long list for, um,
• 11:03
  Madeleine: no.
• 11:04
  Tina: no.
• 11:04
  Tina: So a lot of competitions release a long list as well, which is still really important, especially when you have hundreds and sometimes thousands of entries.
• 11:12
  Tina: Um, it's if you're say they have, I think, did they have six on the short list?
• 11:18
  Madeleine: Seven.
• 11:19
  Tina: know, seven on the short list.
• 11:20
  Tina: So, and other competitions often maybe just have a handful for number like eight, nine, 10.
• 11:27
  Madeleine: Mm hmm.
• 11:28
  Tina: great for them to know how close they got as well.
• 11:32
  Tina: Don't you think, you know?
• 11:34
  Tina: And you know, it's something that you can put, uh, in your cover letter as well.
• 11:38
  Tina: And your query letter, sorry, when you, when you're pitching to publishers that you've been long listed or you've been shortlisted, all those sorts of things or highly commended.
• 11:46
  Tina: All those sorts of things are really good, because a lot of people I know when I was first writing query letters, and this is something that I know a lot of emerging authors have questions about is, you know, what do I put on there?
• 11:58
  Tina: I haven't got anything published.
• 11:59
  Tina: I haven't, you know, I haven't, you know, I've got no, no books to put in there and I don't work in, you know, a literary field.
• 12:06
  Tina: What do I put in?
• 12:07
  Tina: Because, you know, they, they do say for a query letter to sort of put, you know, one paragraph towards the end, which is a little bit about.
• 12:16
  Tina: and if you do have any accolades to put it in there and that's very hard at the beginning when you don't have anything, but if you enter some competitions and get long listed, that's absolutely all shortlisted or even win, obviously.
• 12:29
  Tina: Um, yeah, it just, it gives you something to put in there as well or a highly commended.
• 12:33
  Tina: Yeah.
• 12:34
  Madeleine: You could even get a contract, even being long listed or shortlisted.
• 12:38
  Madeleine: We've heard lots of stories of authors who haven't necessarily won the competition, but their work's out there.
• 12:44
  Madeleine: It's being read by publishers.
• 12:46
  Madeleine: They've enjoyed it.
• 12:46
  Madeleine: They want to pick it up because I think competitions and prizes, at least this is what I've heard is that, Yeah.
• 12:52
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 12:52
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 12:52
  Madeleine: Often there's just a very small margin between the books that are being shortlisted or even long listed.
• 12:58
  Madeleine: It's really hard.
• 12:59
  Madeleine: I very much admire judges who have to judge and critique work because I think it would be really difficult.
• 13:05
  Madeleine: And often they're looking for a certain type of thing.
• 13:08
  Madeleine: And we've talked in podcasts before about timing and sometimes it's not necessarily.
• 13:13
  Madeleine: Exactly personal preference and they're looking for a certain thing for this particular award, but it doesn't mean they're not looking for your work
• 13:21
  Tina: That's right.
• 13:22
  Tina: Yeah, it could.
• 13:23
  Madeleine: there in another way.
• 13:24
  Tina: Absolutely.
• 13:24
  Tina: Yeah.
• 13:25
  Tina: So I wanted to ask you, Madeline, like, how, how did you feel when you found out you were shortlisted?
• 13:31
  Tina: It
• 13:33
  Madeleine: I, cause I was in Bali when I found out.
• 13:36
  Madeleine: And, one of the publishers at HarperCollins, she tried to call me, um, but it mustn't have come through because I was overseas.
• 13:44
  Madeleine: And so she sent me this email and.
• 13:47
  Madeleine: Um, I didn't have my phone on me.
• 13:48
  Madeleine: I was like by the pool.
• 13:49
  Madeleine: So that afternoon I went back up to our room.
• 13:52
  Madeleine: I was just quickly checking my phone, saw this email and it said the Australian Fiction Prize.
• 13:56
  Madeleine: I was like, Oh, here's my rejection.
• 13:58
  Tina: was my step, like my standard rejection letter.
• 14:01
  Tina: Yeah.
• 14:01
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 14:02
  Madeleine: Well, that's what, and that's, it's kind of funny.
• 14:04
  Madeleine: That's just what the expectation is.
• 14:05
  Madeleine: I just was like, Oh, here's the rejection.
• 14:07
  Madeleine: Cool.
• 14:08
  Madeleine: And I kind of forgotten about it anyway.
• 14:10
  Madeleine: So I was like, okay, here's the rejection opened it up.
• 14:14
  Madeleine: And it was From Anna.
• 14:15
  Madeleine: And she said, Couldn't get through, you must be overseas, couldn't get through, um, just wanted to let you know you've been shortlisted for the Australian Fiction Prize.
• 14:23
  Madeleine: Um, the readers like loved your book, like it was a tough, tough competition, but readers loved it.
• 14:28
  Madeleine: So yeah, massive.
• 14:30
  Madeleine: So I, um, was, I had to like, so I read the email, I was like on my hands and knees in our hotel roof, like reading it.
• 14:39
  Madeleine: And I was like in my bathers and all, cause we'd just been at the pool and I was just trying to like comprehend it.
• 14:45
  Madeleine: Cause.
• 14:45
  Madeleine: I just, it's kind of like the, that first time when you get an email from your, the publisher who's, who's saying, yes, we want to take on your book.
• 14:54
  Madeleine: Like it doesn't quite
• 14:56
  Tina: Yeah.
• 14:56
  Tina: Yeah.
• 14:56
  Tina: You're like, does it say yes, loved it, but no, thanks.
• 14:59
  Tina: How come I can't see that?
• 15:01
  Tina: What?
• 15:01
  Tina: No, I think it actually says, yes, we want it here.
• 15:04
  Tina: Your brain's just not computing it.
• 15:06
  Madeleine: It's not computing and you're shaking and you're just doing some deep breathing exercises and you're like, is this real?
• 15:13
  Madeleine: And so, um, I walked back down to the pool.
• 15:17
  Madeleine: My husband was there and he was in the pool and he saw my expression and he thought something terrible had gone wrong.
• 15:24
  Madeleine: Cause I must've looked very pale and in shock.
• 15:27
  Madeleine: And he's like, Oh my God, are you all right?
• 15:30
  Madeleine: And I'm like, read the email, read the email.
• 15:32
  Madeleine: And his face just was like lit up.
• 15:35
  Madeleine: So that was pretty fun.
• 15:36
  Madeleine: So.
• 15:37
  Tina: And then you ordered a big bottle of champagne.
• 15:39
  Madeleine: absolutely, absolutely.
• 15:41
  Madeleine: We definitely celebrated in Bali.
• 15:44
  Madeleine: So yeah.
• 15:45
  Madeleine: And then I couldn't really tell anyone until we all came out.
• 15:47
  Madeleine: So I had to hide it for a little bit, only if it wasn't too long.
• 15:51
  Madeleine: Um, and yeah, so that was, that was, it was really, really exciting.
• 15:55
  Madeleine: Um, almost on par to getting that initial publishing email, but, um, yeah, great, great feeling just to have like that bit of validation, you know, it's nice when you haven't really shown much of this work to
• 16:07
  Tina: hmm.
• 16:07
  Tina: Mm hmm.
• 16:08
  Tina: And that's what competitions can do as well is provide you that a bit of validation and give you a little bit of extra courage and, and, um, motivation to keep going.
• 16:19
  Tina: Uh, so tell me how you felt when you found out that you didn't win.
• 16:25
  Tina: As
• 16:30
  Madeleine: know if we sort of said that explicitly at the start.
• 16:33
  Madeleine: Um, yeah, I mean, I can't,
• 16:35
  Tina: do.
• 16:40
  Madeleine: but I never had any expectation that I would win as soon as I got shortlisted.
• 16:45
  Madeleine: So I was like, okay, this is amazing, but I'm not going to win.
• 16:47
  Madeleine: I didn't have the expectation that I was going to win.
• 16:49
  Madeleine: Um, So yeah, I, so actually on Friday, I think when I found out, um, I think they posted up on Instagram, I was really, really thrilled genuinely for Catherine.
• 16:59
  Madeleine: Like I think it's, it's her book sounds incredible and I'm so excited to see it on shelves.
• 17:04
  Madeleine: And I think for me, the shortlisting was enough.
• 17:06
  Madeleine: I mean, of course you always hold that little bit of, Oh, it would be amazing if it did win.
• 17:12
  Madeleine: Of course.
• 17:13
  Madeleine: Course you can't not as you know, we're all humans, but, um, but I was just excited to be shortlisted and I think I was saying like, this is the first competition I'd ever entered.
• 17:24
  Madeleine: And so to be shortlisted is huge.
• 17:27
  Tina: Uh huh.
• 17:28
  Madeleine: I'm just going to embask in that moment.
• 17:30
  Tina: Yeah, and so you should, uh, do you think it's a little bit of, um, managing expectations and a little bit of self preservation because you, I think that's only natural, right?
• 17:42
  Tina: And you, you just don't want to get your hopes up too high cause you know that you'll be so, you know, Disappointed if you, I mean, I thought you were going to win.
• 17:50
  Tina: I was totally manifesting for you and you were all like, it doesn't matter.
• 17:54
  Tina: I'm not going to win.
• 17:54
  Tina: And I was like, oh, I can't wait to record the podcast because the title will be Madeline wins the Australian fiction prize.
• 18:00
  Tina: And you're like, no, it's not.
• 18:02
  Tina: But I was totally manifesting for you.
• 18:04
  Tina: It's obviously not hard enough, but, but yeah, you know, you, um, yeah.
• 18:08
  Tina: Do you think it's just a little bit of managing expectations?
• 18:11
  Tina: Cause you don't want to.
• 18:12
  Tina: Yeah.
• 18:12
  Tina: Yeah.
• 18:14
  Madeleine: I mean, it would be amazing, but I feel, I just feel really grateful and lucky, I think, to be in this position.
• 18:22
  Tina: Mm hmm.
• 18:24
  Madeleine: I don't know if luck is a, is a, is something that is important in these types of prizes, but I think it does.
• 18:30
  Madeleine: Like it's just the, it's almost that right timing kind of thing.
• 18:34
  Madeleine: So, um, no, I, I said it when I, when I did say it wasn't just about managing expectations.
• 18:40
  Madeleine: I genuinely didn't think I was going to win, but I loved your messages anyway, and your manifestation.
• 18:45
  Madeleine: So that was great.
• 18:47
  Madeleine: Um, and, and I had so many people reach out.
• 18:49
  Madeleine: It was that, that was the best part, actually.
• 18:51
  Madeleine: So many people reached out and said, congratulations.
• 18:53
  Madeleine: And that was really lovely.
• 18:54
  Madeleine: Like this, this community around us is so supportive and celebratory of, of the wins that people get.
• 19:01
  Madeleine: And that I think was like the best part of this whole thing is just.
• 19:06
  Madeleine: The support from you and from everybody.
• 19:08
  Madeleine: So that was really lovely.
• 19:12
  Madeleine: So what about you, Tina?
• 19:13
  Madeleine: What about your competitions?
• 19:14
  Madeleine: You've had lots of luck.
• 19:15
  Madeleine: Is it luck or in competitions too?
• 19:19
  Tina: Is it luck?
• 19:19
  Tina: And you know what?
• 19:20
  Tina: It's putting, just putting yourself out there though, isn't it Madeline?
• 19:23
  Tina: You know, and we've had this conversation and I'm all for it.
• 19:26
  Tina: for competitions.
• 19:27
  Tina: As
• 19:27
  Madeleine: Yeah, because you've won both of the ones that you've, you've won both the competitions you've entered, Tina.
• 19:32
  Madeleine: Let's just celebrate that.
• 19:33
  Madeleine: That's a win.
• 19:34
  Madeleine: Hey, celebrate it.
• 19:35
  Tina: Time.
• 19:36
  Tina: Yeah, you're right.
• 19:37
  Tina: Yes, that's true.
• 19:37
  Tina: But you know, I put myself out there and I entered it.
• 19:39
  Madeleine: did.
• 19:40
  Tina: Um, but you know, I didn't enter to win.
• 19:43
  Tina: I, you know, there's lots of, like you said, with the Australian fiction prize, there's lots of good reasons to enter.
• 19:51
  Tina: And some of them are just honing your skills on creating, because you often have to do your, your log line.
• 19:57
  Tina: So like, I'll ask, I don't know if you had to do this for, for your competition.
• 20:02
  Tina: You often have to do your log line.
• 20:04
  Tina: A pitch.
• 20:05
  Tina: Oh, like your one, like your one liner.
• 20:06
  Madeleine: Oh, yes.
• 20:07
  Madeleine: I had to do that.
• 20:07
  Madeleine: That was what was published in the
• 20:09
  Tina: That's right.
• 20:10
  Madeleine: make sure everybody, that's a good.
• 20:12
  Madeleine: top tip.
• 20:13
  Madeleine: Watch your logline or your, your pitch line because it didn't know it was unedited, straight printed in the Australian.
• 20:21
  Tina: Yeah.
• 20:21
  Tina: You never know where it's going to end up.
• 20:23
  Tina: See, so make sure it's you, you're putting your best foot forward with your, with your, with your one liner.
• 20:29
  Tina: So you've got your one liner, which we could do a whole episode on how to do a one liner, um, pitches.
• 20:35
  Tina: So then like often you have to do a short pitch then after that, like your brief and then a synopsis.
• 20:43
  Madeleine: which is the hardest thing ever.
• 20:44
  Madeleine: How do you write a synopsis?
• 20:46
  Tina: again, we could do a whole episode on that and I think we should, let me write that down.
• 20:50
  Tina: We're going to do an episode on your one liner and the
• 20:53
  Madeleine: briefly, how do you approach writing a synopsis?
• 20:56
  Madeleine: Cause I have a, I have an approach, so I'm keen to know yours.
• 20:59
  Tina: Okay.
• 21:00
  Tina: Um, I actually have started recently writing my synopsis or you're going to hate this.
• 21:09
  Tina: But first, before I've written the story, the whole book,
• 21:13
  Madeleine: that's such a plot up to do.
• 21:15
  Madeleine: That's awful.
• 21:16
  Madeleine: Tina, that is awful.
• 21:18
  Tina: but it's, and when I say that I'm writing the synopsis, I'm not writing the whole thing, but I've actually found, and it actually helped me once with a manuscript that I got stuck on for, um, my series that's coming out next year, my wild or zoo series.
• 21:33
  Tina: Um, I got stuck on something and you know what, when I came to writing the synopsis, it helped me work it out.
• 21:41
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 21:41
  Tina: think the synopsis, cause it's so high level and you're hitting, you're including everything, including the ending, because this is only, the synopsis is just, it's meant to just be for the publisher or your agent or the editor to, and so they need to know there's no like secret ending, like they need to know the ending.
• 21:59
  Tina: So, which is very different to what you put on the back of your book, like your blurbs and your promo material and stuff.
• 22:04
  Tina: So, so you have to put everything in there.
• 22:07
  Tina: And I think it helps you, if you can't, Um, and sometimes even just with the higher level pitch, if you can't, um, up sort of like up the ante and tell the whole story in that little pitch or that synopsis, then you know that you've got an issue.
• 22:24
  Tina: Like, you know, how normally it's, you're sort of like, okay, this is the character.
• 22:30
  Tina: This is how their life normally is.
• 22:31
  Tina: And then this was the inciting incident.
• 22:33
  Tina: And then this happened and this happened and this happened, which helped them get to, you know, and then this happened, which helped them sort of.
• 22:39
  Tina: solve the problem or get to the end or, or that's how they grew from the story.
• 22:43
  Tina: And if you can't do that in your pitch, then there's something wrong with your story.
• 22:47
  Tina: And I don't know, I found that it's helped me, um, find the holes and the problems,
• 22:53
  Madeleine: But you do that before you write the story.
• 22:56
  Tina: look, no, not like the very first thing I've written, but sometimes I have just as an idea, just as a, just to, you know, and it can change.
• 23:04
  Tina: But as
• 23:05
  Madeleine: Tana.
• 23:05
  Madeleine: Horrifying.
• 23:06
  Madeleine: No! No idea.
• 23:08
  Madeleine: I
• 23:09
  Tina: still, but you know what, you're probably doing it too, sort of, but it's in your head.
• 23:12
  Tina: Like you're sort of thinking, Oh, this is kind of where it's going.
• 23:16
  Tina: I'm just putting it on paper.
• 23:18
  Madeleine: no idea where,
• 23:19
  Tina: Do you honestly not have any idea where it's
• 23:22
  Madeleine: Generally, generally not.
• 23:24
  Madeleine: I kind of have an idea of where it might end, and I don't know how they're gonna get there though.
• 23:29
  Madeleine: Until I write it.
• 23:30
  Tina: See, and that's sort of the same with me.
• 23:32
  Tina: And even you can be like, you know, create the character and the setting and the scene and this is what you want at the end.
• 23:38
  Tina: And sometimes, you know, this is some cool things that I think I can put in to the story at some point.
• 23:44
  Tina: But yeah, it's just that middle bit, um, which is the, which is the hardest bit,
• 23:47
  Madeleine: The middle is the, is the bloody worst.
• 23:49
  Madeleine: Okay, so just quickly, um, I've had to put down my work in progress.
• 23:53
  Madeleine: That's the appendicitis.
• 23:55
  Madeleine: Surgery hospital visit has completely ruined my creativity.
• 23:59
  Madeleine: I feel, um, so I am, I've, I've, and, and plus added in Bali.
• 24:04
  Madeleine: So it's been a couple of weeks, tried to pick it back up while I was still unwell, uh, couldn't get through the brain fog, couldn't break through.
• 24:13
  Madeleine: I feel like completely stuck.
• 24:14
  Madeleine: So I, I'm in the middle, I'm like halfway, so I'm just going to put it down.
• 24:19
  Madeleine: For a month and not work on it and just give myself some time because the middle I think is the hardest bit, but back on synopsis.
• 24:27
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 24:27
  Madeleine: So
• 24:28
  Tina: Tell me your, tell me yours.
• 24:29
  Tina: Okay.
• 24:30
  Tina: So mine is just, I don't really have a process.
• 24:33
  Tina: I don't think I just sort of, you know, start with.
• 24:37
  Tina: You know, setting the scene, and this is, this is the cap, like the main characters and, um, where they are in their usual sort of day to day life.
• 24:47
  Tina: And then, um, moving on to sort of the inciting incident.
• 24:52
  Tina: Um, this is the big thing that happened.
• 24:55
  Tina: And then these are all the complications that got in the way, this happened and this happened and this happened and this happened.
• 25:01
  Tina: And then, um, it's, you know, then there'll be like a paragraph on sort of how they, you know, solve the issue, I guess.
• 25:12
  Tina: Um, and then a wrap up, right?
• 25:15
  Tina: Yeah.
• 25:15
  Tina: Which, like I was saying before, which reveals the ending because it's meant to in your synopsis.
• 25:21
  Tina: Um, yeah.
• 25:23
  Tina: That's what I do, squishing it down into, but I, and that's, I often try to keep that to one page.
• 25:29
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 25:30
  Madeleine: Yeah.
• 25:30
  Madeleine: Cause I think synopsis are supposed to be about 500 words.
• 25:34
  Madeleine: I think.
• 25:34
  Madeleine: I think generally the published most publishers when you're querying, and particularly I think for this prize, it was about 500 words for the synopsis.
• 25:43
  Madeleine: And like you said, it has to be Yeah, revealing.
• 25:47
  Madeleine: And it's, I think, um, completely opposite for all authors to have to reveal the ending in something so cold and clinical and often my synopses are very cold.
• 25:59
  Madeleine: It feels very cold.
• 26:00
  Madeleine: So, um, what I had had some really good advice because I had no idea how to write a synopsis.
• 26:06
  Madeleine: So I went through and I was actually querying butterfly.
• 26:08
  Madeleine: And the best piece of advice was go through your manuscript each chapter and write the key things that happen in dot points in each chapter.
• 26:18
  Madeleine: And I'd never done anything like that before.
• 26:20
  Madeleine: Um, because you know, I don't plot and I don't have your fancy tool.
• 26:24
  Madeleine: So I was just working out of word.
• 26:26
  Madeleine: So I went through, grabbed the dot points, um, and then put that all into a fresh document And then.
• 26:34
  Madeleine: Put that into like a word form and had maybe 1500 words and then cut and cut and cut all the needless stuff.
• 26:43
  Madeleine: And I was trying to sort of explain, you know, Subcharacters and all sorts of things, but you don't need that.
• 26:50
  Madeleine: Like you just focus on the key, key, key driving things of the plot.
• 26:54
  Madeleine: And I do agree with you, Tina.
• 26:57
  Madeleine: When you do that, you get to understand your story much better.
• 27:02
  Madeleine: And so suddenly I understood what the story was about.
• 27:04
  Madeleine: And I don't think I'd even understood that until I did that in that process.
• 27:09
  Madeleine: I did once try to write a synopsis before writing a novel.
• 27:14
  Madeleine: Um, and.
• 27:16
  Madeleine: It killed, killed the novel.
• 27:19
  Tina: Ah,
• 27:19
  Madeleine: I just never wrote it.
• 27:21
  Madeleine: I did, I did it
• 27:22
  Tina: maybe that's a good thing because what if you'd written the whole thing and got to the end and just being like, you might've just got to the end and been
• 27:28
  Madeleine: Oh, I think I will write this book again, but at the time I was ready to write it.
• 27:32
  Madeleine: And so I, I wanted to pitch it to someone.
• 27:34
  Madeleine: And so I wrote out synopsis and it completely killed for me, the
• 27:39
  Tina: creativity in it.
• 27:40
  Tina: Yeah.
• 27:41
  Madeleine: And so I just put it down and I was like, I'm not ready to do this now, but I think I will pick that book up again.
• 27:46
  Madeleine: But, um,
• 27:47
  Tina: Do you think it's just the middle?
• 27:49
  Tina: That's the issue.
• 27:50
  Tina: Cause do you know how you've like, do you know how you want it to start and want it to end?
• 27:53
  Tina: But the middle is like the fun and games where all the good stuff is.
• 27:56
  Tina: Right.
• 27:57
  Madeleine: think it just takes the excitement out of everything.
• 27:59
  Madeleine: Like middle, beginning, middle and end.
• 28:01
  Tina: motivated to write It If, if you know where it's going to finish.
• 28:03
  Madeleine: No, exactly.
• 28:05
  Madeleine: Cause I always write for myself.
• 28:07
  Madeleine: I just write whatever I want to read.
• 28:08
  Madeleine: And so I'm not writing for anyone else.
• 28:10
  Madeleine: And so if I'm taking the fun out of it for me, like, cause I don't see this as a job still.
• 28:15
  Madeleine: Do
• 28:16
  Tina: a good point.
• 28:16
  Tina: Yeah.
• 28:18
  Tina: No, no I don't.
• 28:19
  Madeleine: It's fun.
• 28:20
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 28:25
  Tina: thing, again, yeah, we should, we definitely should do a synopsis, um, episode, but I was just going to say one thing that I, with synopsis, is still putting a little bit of the, The voice in there as well, like it, like you're saying cold and it should be pretty to the point.
• 28:46
  Tina: fancy and always in third person as well, isn't
• 28:49
  Madeleine: And present tense.
• 28:51
  Tina: And present tense.
• 28:52
  Tina: That's right.
• 28:53
  Tina: Um, whereas I normally write first person,
• 28:57
  Madeleine: Oh, that's interesting.
• 28:58
  Madeleine: Cause I write third and present.
• 29:00
  Madeleine: So it's natural for me, but Yeah,
• 29:02
  Tina: Yeah, but you know what, writing the synopsis is natural for me to, it just automatically comes out third person present, like just because you just know that's what it's going to be.
• 29:10
  Tina: Um, but with children's books, often first person is, it just comes out first person for me.
• 29:18
  Tina: When I'm writing it, but kids like first person, just so they can get in the head a little bit more.
• 29:22
  Tina: It can be a little bit more appealing.
• 29:24
  Tina: So, but yes, it's complete change from you writing one way and then having to do your synopsis third person and dry, but still having a little bit of that voice right in there.
• 29:36
  Tina: Like, you know, you can just use so, so they get the vibe of the book, but certainly not.
• 29:41
  Tina: in the character's voice or anything like that.
• 29:44
  Tina: Um,
• 29:46
  Madeleine: we should share it.
• 29:46
  Madeleine: We should share synopses.
• 29:48
  Madeleine: I
• 29:48
  Tina: Oh, Yeah, Yeah, we should.
• 29:50
  Tina: Oh, oh, except it'll have the ending in it.
• 29:54
  Tina: We can't do that.
• 29:55
  Madeleine: Oh, no.
• 29:56
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 29:56
  Madeleine: So we have to read each other's books and then we'll share synopses that we can critique.
• 30:00
  Madeleine: Oh,
• 30:00
  Tina: don't want to spoil it for you.
• 30:02
  Tina: Yeah.
• 30:04
  Tina: no,
• 30:04
  Madeleine: I getting a copy of the, of Neeka and the missing key by the way?
• 30:08
  Madeleine: I'm hoping to
• 30:09
  Tina: Absolutely.
• 30:09
  Madeleine: yeah, I want to read it before we interview you about it as well.
• 30:13
  Madeleine: And then I can then go and buy my pristine copy.
• 30:17
  Tina: I, yes, I, I am waiting for my, I'm waiting for my copy.
• 30:22
  Tina: You know how you see all those unboxing videos
• 30:25
  Madeleine: Yes.
• 30:26
  Tina: that's an author or a emerging author, you probably know very well, the unboxing videos,
• 30:32
  Madeleine: They can be a bit cringe, I must
• 30:34
  Tina: they can be a little bit
• 30:35
  Madeleine: love them.
• 30:36
  Tina: But I I remember just the first one I ever saw and just.
• 30:41
  Tina: And this was a while ago, just before I'd ever thought that getting published was a thing and just literally tingles and tears in my eyes, just being like, Oh my God, this actually happens to people.
• 30:51
  Tina: They actually, so yes, I'm excited for my box to arrive and then you'll be one of the very first to get it.
• 31:00
  Madeleine: Okay, I'm gonna say something, Tina, because, uh, Sorry, I know we're sort of going over time, but I wanna what I love to see in those unboxing videos is people, before they show the camera, actually looking at their own book.
• 31:16
  Madeleine: first because I find like people often feel like they need to perform and like show the camera first and then they look at it.
• 31:22
  Madeleine: But I love it when people look at their book the first time and hold it like that.
• 31:27
  Madeleine: I think is cool.
• 31:28
  Madeleine: So if you don't do that, I'll be judging.
• 31:29
  Tina: Well, you're going to be with me though, because, um, I'm going to do it.
• 31:33
  Tina: We're going to do it on the pod.
• 31:36
  Tina: I'm literally going to unbox on the pod and then you have to unbox on the pod too.
• 31:41
  Madeleine: Okay.
• 31:41
  Madeleine: All right.
• 31:42
  Madeleine: That'll be pretty fun.
• 31:43
  Madeleine: All right.
• 31:43
  Madeleine: That'll be a fun unboxing.
• 31:45
  Tina: you through it.
• 31:45
  Tina: And hopefully that'll stop me from being cringe about a cringy video.
• 31:51
  Tina: Um, okay.
• 31:53
  Tina: Well, that was some good, um, some good tips there about synopsis.
• 31:57
  Tina: There you go.
• 31:57
  Tina: I'm going to put a top tip, um, synopsis, writing, uh, good practice.
• 32:04
  Tina: If you, for entering competitions, it's good practice.
• 32:07
  Tina: And for when you want to submit to publishers, but of course treat it like entering competitions, like you are.
• 32:15
  Tina: Um, and.
• 32:16
  Tina: Submitting it to a publisher, um, it's very important because you know, oftentimes publishers will read it, um, or, you know, it will, it's, it's important.
• 32:28
  Tina: It's good practice.
• 32:29
  Tina: They may read it and judges going to read it, or it might end up somehow finding its way like Madeline's, um, unedited one liner in the paper or something like that.
• 32:38
  Tina: So, so that's super important because I didn't even think for a second that a publisher would read mine.
• 32:44
  Tina: When I first, when I entered my first competition, it turns out that they did.
• 32:46
  Tina: So, um, that says, you know, take that tip from me.
• 32:50
  Tina: Always write it as well as you can.
• 32:52
  Tina: And I know it can be tricky, but we'll do a, we'll do an app on that.
• 32:55
  Tina: We'll try and do some more practical tips.
• 32:58
  Tina: Can I ask Madeline, do you get judges feedback from the Australian Fiction Prize?
• 33:03
  Madeleine: have no idea.
• 33:04
  Madeleine: I hope so.
• 33:05
  Madeleine: Cause that would be really exciting,
• 33:06
  Tina: Mm.
• 33:07
  Madeleine: uh, but I haven't heard anything yet, but I will definitely let you know if I do.
• 33:14
  Madeleine: Did you get feedback?
• 33:15
  Madeleine: I mean, obviously you've won both of the competitions you entered, so it was probably very good feedback.
• 33:20
  Tina: But it's still, but you know, sometimes you don't get 100 percent of scoring, do you?
• 33:26
  Tina: There can be a few little things here and there, but yes, it's really good to hear, um, that feedback and, um, yeah, regardless of what it is.
• 33:35
  Tina: So, um, that's always very helpful.
• 33:38
  Tina: So whether you win or don't win, it's always, um, yeah, it'll hopefully.
• 33:42
  Tina: You know, point you in the right direction
• 33:44
  Madeleine: Do you, so what, do you know off the top of your head some of the competitions available to emerging writers?
• 33:50
  Madeleine: Because maybe that's something we should put into our show notes, because I'm aware of a few, like there's lots out there, um, but maybe that's something we can kind of gather.
• 33:57
  Tina: Yeah.
• 33:57
  Tina: We'll put some in the show notes.
• 33:59
  Tina: Um, and, um, yeah, from now on, I think every time one comes up, we should, we should shout it out.
• 34:05
  Tina: Um, so listeners can get ready to enter.
• 34:07
  Madeleine: Well, I know that the Penguin Literary Prize will be opening shortly, I think, in mid December.
• 34:14
  Madeleine: And that's a big one, I
• 34:15
  Tina: That's only literary fiction though.
• 34:17
  Tina: Is that, or is it all I
• 34:20
  Madeleine: literary in the title, but I think it's open to everybody.
• 34:23
  Madeleine: Um, so, hey, why not, like,
• 34:26
  Tina: We'll find out.
• 34:26
  Madeleine: If you've got even a hint of literary work in your book, and it's for adults, so adult fiction, I'm pretty sure.
• 34:32
  Madeleine: Um, but you know, these are, these are all opportunities.
• 34:35
  Madeleine: You just don't know what they're going to be looking for,
• 34:37
  Tina: Yeah.
• 34:37
  Tina: No, absolutely.
• 34:39
  Tina: Um, should we talk Madeline about, this is our sort of last catch up really, isn't it?
• 34:48
  Tina: Before Christmas,
• 34:49
  Madeleine: Yes,
• 34:50
  Tina: going to have a bit of a break
• 34:51
  Madeleine: We are, we are.
• 34:53
  Tina: and,
• 34:53
  Madeleine: for very long though, according to the schedule that you've developed, Tina.
• 34:58
  Tina: who would have thought I planned that, uh, the schedule?
• 35:01
  Tina: Um, no, that's right.
• 35:02
  Tina: But we are, so we have another really exciting interview that'll be coming up.
• 35:05
  Tina: That we'll be publishing the week after this
• 35:09
  Madeleine: I think we can say who, can't we?
• 35:11
  Tina: Yeah, let's say,
• 35:12
  Madeleine: Yeah, so we're going to, I'm going to, well, we're both going to be interviewing tomorrow, Ruby Ashby Orr.
• 35:18
  Madeleine: She's the publisher at Affirm Press and she's my publisher.
• 35:21
  Madeleine: So we're going to be having a chat with her tomorrow.
• 35:23
  Madeleine: So that will come out, you know, week, week's time.
• 35:26
  Madeleine: And I'm very excited for
• 35:27
  Tina: I'm so excited.
• 35:28
  Tina: I'm So excited.
• 35:29
  Tina: So that'd be so much amazing information and tips for, um, for listeners.
• 35:35
  Tina: Um, so yeah, so, so that'll be next week and then we're going to have a bit of a break ourselves, but we're not going to be off the airwaves.
• 35:43
  Tina: Are we Madeline?
• 35:44
  Madeleine: won't, we won't.
• 35:45
  Madeleine: So we just like to keep ourselves busy, Tina.
• 35:49
  Madeleine: Uh, we're doing like a little, well, we don't have a name for it yet, but I think it's going to be a bit of a year in review with some of our 2024 debuts.
• 35:58
  Madeleine: There you go.
• 35:59
  Madeleine: There's a bit of a rhyme for you, Tina.
• 36:01
  Madeleine: Um, and so we've lined up some, yeah, really great chats with a few of our 2024 debut writers just to hear about what's What their experience was like during the year, what tips they might have for us as well.
• 36:15
  Madeleine: And for the 2025 is, and what's next for them.
• 36:19
  Tina: Mm hmm.
• 36:19
  Tina: Yep.
• 36:20
  Tina: And tips for the aspiring authors as well, because we, they were all aspiring just a few years ago, weren't they?
• 36:26
  Tina: Until they got their deals.
• 36:27
  Tina: So, um, so
• 36:30
  Madeleine: be fun.
• 36:30
  Madeleine: So we'll, we'll air that over Christmas and year, weren't we?
• 36:33
  Madeleine: We're
• 36:33
  Tina: Yeah.
• 36:34
  Madeleine: record early and.
• 36:35
  Madeleine: Yeah, them.
• 36:35
  Madeleine: So we won't be off the airwaves.
• 36:38
  Madeleine: Uh, we'll still be on, on
• 36:40
  Tina: Yep.
• 36:41
  Tina: So if you want a little break from the Christmas, Um, from the Christmas hecticness or, um, yes, you just need a little nap after eating too much pudding.
• 36:49
  Tina: Uh, you can, you can listen in to some actual, uh, the debuts from, from this year.
• 36:55
  Tina: So you're in review with the debut crew.
• 36:58
  Tina: Oh,
• 36:59
  Madeleine: love it.
• 36:59
  Madeleine: There's our title.
• 37:00
  Tina: I haven't even thought about being a poet before.
• 37:02
  Tina: Um, awesome.
• 37:04
  Tina: Okay.
• 37:06
  Tina: Well, that sounds amazing.
• 37:07
  Tina: Thank you so much, Madeline, for giving us the It's all that exciting inside Intel on the Australian Fiction Prize and congratulations again.
• 37:15
  Tina: It's such an amazing achievement.
• 37:16
  Madeleine: Tina.
• 37:17
  Tina: And I'm so glad you feel better.
• 37:19
  Madeleine: I'm feeling a lot better than last week.
• 37:21
  Madeleine: So yeah.
• 37:22
  Madeleine: And it was, um, an interesting experience reading about yourself in the paper from your hospital bed.
• 37:28
  Madeleine: Um, highs and lows, but, um, yeah, happy to be on the other side of that and yeah, just excited, I suppose, for next year.
• 37:36
  Madeleine: And I've just loved doing this podcast with you, Tina, as well.
• 37:39
  Madeleine: Like it's been a joy.
• 37:40
  Madeleine: So hopefully we can bring all this back for next year, which is going to be an exciting year for both of us.
• 37:45
  Tina: Yeah, we already have it pretty packed out for next year,
• 37:48
  Madeleine: we, do
• 37:48
  Tina: so very exciting.
• 37:50
  Tina: And it's, yeah, it's going to be a huge year for us.
• 37:52
  Tina: huge, massive, but it's going to be fun.