Latest / Art of the Question / The Science of Awe - Gloria Simoncini - #25

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The Science of Awe - Gloria Simoncini - #25 · Art of the Question

• Julius Moorman: First of all, I was kind of wondering, ⁓ when did you first become interested in studying awe? Well, ⁓ first of all, thank you for inviting me and for having me here today. It's a pleasure for me. ⁓ well, I'm a neuropsychologist and a psychotherapist. And I'm currently also a PhD student. Well, I actually started from the clinical side. I was driven by a very simple motivation, curiosity about people, a passion for human experience, and the desire to help others. And what attracted me most was not only understanding symptoms or diagnosis, but really interacting with people, understanding how their ⁓ how they experience the world. I worked with patients with acquired brain injuries in cognitive rehabilitation settings, and that experience was incredibly formative for me. I spent a lot of time observing how cognition changes how people adapt after major life disruption and also how individuals gradually reconstruct aspects of their identity and their emotionality. And then during my second year of psycho psychotherapy specialization, I started realizing that something felt incomplete. Clinically, I was observing incredibly complex processes every day. But I felt I was missing a piece. Of this big puzzle. I wanted to understand these mechanisms more deeply and studying them with greater systematicity. And above all, I felt the emotional experience was often left somewhat in in the background. We talked a lot about cognition, symptoms, rehabilitations, functions, but emotions were treated as a secondary. even though they clearly shape how people interpret themselves and their lives. So I gradually moved closer to research and especially to ⁓ research about emotions and complex emotions, and not because I wanted to leave the clinical world, but ⁓ almost for the opposite opposite reason. I wanted to understand it better. And the paddo eventually brought me toward emotional awareness, complex emotions, and self-transcendent emotions, that is awe. Because awe sits exactly at the intersection that fascinates me: neuroscience, subjective experience, emotion, meaning, and above all, transformation. So I think that these guided me towards these emotion. Yeah, it's it's it's an incredible emotion. It's a very unique one, I I think. How would you define it? ⁓ what what is awe? What what what are we talking about when we mean awe? Well, I actually love starting from the word itself. Because awe almost sounds onomatopic. It has this feeling of an involuntary reaction, like, wow. Or the little breath that people take when they suddenly encounter something extraordinary. And I think that's fitting. Because awe often begins before we even have words for it. I think one reason awe is so fascinating is almost ⁓ everyone knows the feeling. Even if they don't immediately recognize the word. Actually I I'm curious if I say the word awe. What immediately comes to your mind? What kind of image of years first? It's a good question. I I think a sense of kind of being overwhelmed in some way. ⁓ like you say, when something's happening, it's kind of you gasp like, ⁓ okay. it's a positive emotion, I would argue. ⁓ it's also a very ⁓ Fleeting emotion, like you kind of you know what it feels like, but it's it's a f it's it happens very fast, right? It comes on very fast and it also goes away pretty fast. Like for example, if you compare it to happiness, for example, or sadness, ⁓ that those feel like they are more prolonged to me. So you can be happy for a few days or or you can be sad even for weeks. on end. Hopefully not, but yeah, you you definitely can be. Whereas awe feels more ⁓ spontaneous. It feels more yeah, right in the moment. This is awesome or or awful, if you will. ⁓ but it's ⁓ it's a fast emotion. Is am I am I close to to to what you Yeah to the definition. Yeah, actually you touch a really interesting point, the the overwhelming. Well most most people usually say things like mountains, waterfalls, space, cathedrals, huge landscapes. Yes, absolutely those things can trigger awe. But one really important point is that awe isn't actually located in the stimulus itself. It's not in the mountain or the stars or the music. Awe emerges in the relationship. Between the experience and the person living it. The exact same experience can leave one person completely unchanged and deeply move someone else. So all isn't in the property of the object. It's a subjective and relational experience. And I think that's one reason why it's such a complex emotion. ⁓ but ⁓ we are really ⁓ well someone researchers helped us. To understand better and to structure models for understand better awe. And the classic model comes from Kelter and Eight in 2003. And they proposed two core ingredients, if we can call it them in this way, of awe. And the first is vastness. And vastness doesn't necessarily mean physical size. A mountain can feel vast, but also can a scientific theory. An extra extraordinary person or a powerful piece of music or suddenly understanding an idea that completely changes how you see reality. And the second ingredient is what they call the need for accommodation. It sounds technical, but basically it means that your current your current mental framework suddenly isn't enough anymore in a certain way. Your brain realizes Okay, wait. My old explanation no longer work. I love thinking about awe as a collision between reality and our expectation. Most of the time we move through life using familiar categories and mental shortcuts, then suddenly something exceeds them. And that's where awe begins. Right. ⁓ so sorry, it so d does that always mean that awe because it feels like it does, ⁓ is a novel experience because it seems to me very difficult to experience awe when you have let's say you live in a beautiful environment and you enjoy the the view or or you live in a beautiful home, like you're not going to wake up every single day and be in awe. Maybe the first time when you see the view or maybe the first time when you Get into your new beautiful hotel room, you experience awe, but it's it fades away. It has to do something with a with a novel experience as well, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, of course. But it's not only a novel, yes, it's ⁓ a novel experience ⁓ definitely help to feel awe, but also your how you feel, how you are, how is your approach to the stimulus in that moment. And it's all about the relation between the stimulus and the person who is living in the the stimulus itself. And it's really important. And ⁓ more recently some two professors that one is Professor Kiriko that ⁓ let us meet and Professor Gajoli suggested that O shouldn't ⁓ simply be thought ⁓ of a positive emotion. It's more like a process that is unfolding over time. It's like a a materioska. And it can begin with fascination, but move also into disruption, temporarily destabilize our assumptions, and eventually reshape also the meaning and the perspective and sometimes even the identity of the person. So awe isn't always just a moment. It begins with a moment, but sometimes it can become a trajectory also for the people that are experiencing awe. Right. And is that also why it's so difficult to study? Because first of all, it seems highly personal, right? ⁓ f something that is ⁓ induces awe to me might not induce awe in another person. And also because it's like, for example, fear, like maybe someone is scared of other things, like I'm I'm afraid of spiders, for example. Not everyone might be as afraid of spiders, but it's pretty well established that if some masked man comes into your home, like everyone would be pretty scared. But I feel like awe is a way more personal emotion than some of the other emotions we experience. And then second of all, since you mentioned that it has this transformative element in there, how can you study this? Because if there has to be a transformative element, then every single time that we want to study the brain or or induce this state of awe, we have to have this new thing, which by definition is something pretty incredible and something pretty extraordinary, which makes it seem so difficult to to study. How how do you how do you go about that? Yeah, and it is. And it is difficult to study. ⁓ one one thing I think it's important to clarify is that researchers do not really create all directly. It's impossible. ⁓ researchers create conditions that can increase the probability that all emerges. And this goes back to something that I I told you earlier, ⁓ all is not located in the stimulus itself. And it emerges in the relation between experience and the person. But over the years, researchers have become surprisingly good at building context that's fali that facilitate it. Traditionally, ⁓ studies try to induce all through videos, pictures, music, also autobiographical recall tasks or documentary clips. These methods work. But some researchers ⁓ pointed out that they often elicit relatively thin version of awe. People may feel moved, yes, or impressed, but these experiences rarely approximate the intensity of real life encounters with something extraordinary. And this is where virtual reality becomes really interesting. ⁓ works by Kiriko, but also more recently, ⁓ Bondy and our ⁓ colleagues, ⁓ suggest that virtual reality may currently be one of the most powerful technologies for experimentally inducing awe because it creates highly immersive and realistic experiences that get much closer to real-world encounters with the awe and the sublime. The the key mechanism here involves. Immersion and presence. And presence refers to the subjective sensations of being somewhere else. And even if cognitively you know that you're standing in a laboratory wearing a headset, another part of your experience temporarily behaves as if you are actually inside that world. And immersion instead refers more to the the sensory isolation from ordinary reality. And together, these two dimensions make emotional experiences substantially stronger. You stop watching an experience and start inhabiting it. And VR is particularly powerful emotional for emotional elicitation ⁓ because of these two combinations. Well we can say it's not ⁓ definitive as a solution. But it's ⁓ we can't say that it doesn't help. Yeah. Yeah. I can really imagine. ⁓ sorry. Now I can really imagine that it it helps a lot because I recently, like a year ago, I bought ⁓ a VR headset, ⁓ the MetaQuest ⁓ three, I believe it was. And I was actually going to to ask you later ⁓ during our conversation, what is the ⁓ last time that you've experienced all yourself? And now that you mention VR, it kind of brings me back to putting on this headset for the first time because that was such an incredible experience. I think anyone who hasn't experienced virtual reality yet, I highly recommend that they do because it's a lot of fun. And the games that they make or or even the meditation apps they have. ⁓ it's incredible. I remember playing this video game where I am ⁓ ⁓ World War Two pilot, I believe, and I'm I'm flying this plane through the mountains and I just completely lose track of time and I'm just like the graphics may not be perfect, but just the sense of actually flying that plane, it's it's so much fun. And definitely like I I had that thing back or what was the last time that I experienced awe. And I believe that must have been one of the one of the last times because ⁓ Yeah, virtual reality is really impressive. It's only going to get better and it's so cool that you use that for for your study. ⁓ but yeah, sorry, I I believe I interrupted you, but that just came to mind. No, no, no. It's really interesting. And w what becomes ⁓ fascinating is that in virtual reality environments are not designed randomly. Researchers intentionally designed them using ⁓ what are have been described as emotion appraisal teams. In in other words, ⁓ researchers build environments around the psychological ingredients known to trigger specific emotions, and in these in this case O. For all this means manipulating the two ⁓ ingredients that I told you about before, vastness and need for accommodation. So ⁓ we can manipulate vastness f vastness through scale, height, Enormous spaces or impossible perspectives like the overview effect, that is the vision from the space of the earth. And accommodation can be operationalized through unexpected events, sudden surprises, or moments that violate expectations and force the user to mentally reorganize what is happening. This manipulation is really important. ⁓ especially for all. And we are can make these experiences highly multisensory. Imagine approaching a a waterfall, ⁓ where the sound becomes progressively louder as you move closer, ⁓ where visual depth changes dynamically and your body also responds to the environment. And it it's incredible in this sense. Right. Yeah, it is. And w before we get into the actual ⁓ studies that are being ⁓ performed and and some of the results that that follow from those studies, first of all, why is it other than the fact that it's just interesting, why is it important to understand this emotion better? How can it help us ⁓ in in in daily life? Well, ⁓ I think ⁓ you touched a a broader point. Point that ⁓ especially in everyday life, but also in clinical settings, ⁓ when something isn't working, when we are struggling, stressed, or overwhelmed or facing a problem, our attention naturally goes toward what is wrong. I don't know if you have this feeling, but we immediately focus on the difficulty. The symptom or the thing that needs fixing fixing. And that's understandable. We'll we'll do it. But one thing psychology and especially positive psychology and all tries to teach us is that people are never only their difficulties. Alongside vulnerabilities, ⁓ there are also resources, strengths, capacities that already exist within the person. And very often the process is about helping ourselves and to recognize and to access resources that we have. And ⁓ enters this conversation because awe isn't simply a pleasant feeling of telling, ⁓ wow, I I saw ⁓ an incredible ⁓ waterfall or an incredible mountain. Is described as a transformative emotion. And these characteristics is really important for us because ⁓ is capable of temporarily reorganizing how we interpret ourselves and the world around us. ⁓ For example, after a long day at work, maybe ⁓ a simple walk and to see ⁓ the river near my home. It makes me feel awe and it's l a little transformation, but it's really important for me in this sense. So I've s ⁓ it's like a shift in perspective. It's like pause what is happening and to concentrate on what I feel and to transformate a little bit my feeling through awe. I don't I don't know if I answered your question, but Yeah, you you you did. You did. No, you did it in a in a very elegant way, even. ⁓ you mentioned negativity bias there. I think negativity bias makes sense, right? From an evolutionary perspective. Yeah. It it makes a lot of sense to me that why we focus on the negative, because if you want to survive, it's important to focus on things that may hurt you may kill you. So to me, I yeah. It's like even though our lives are are pretty well organized, we can just get our food from from the supermarket. We we have a roof above our heads. Like if we compare life to what it was fifty years ago, a hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, every single decade our lives improve from from a safety perspective, from a medicine perspective. But we always feel like we have so much problems going on in our lives. And that's because we were millions of years of evolution led us to focus on the negative things, which is why we must work very hard to focus on the positive things and and be mindful and and be grateful and appreciate what we have. But this is something that needs constant work because we did not evolve to focus on positive things. We evolved to focus on negative things because it helped us to stay alive. ⁓ why what is the what is the biological ⁓ like from an evolutionary perspective, what is the the benefit of of experiencing awe? What what do you think that is? Do we know? Yeah. Well ⁓ I think that biologically and well there is biology in this but also culture and social events. Since for example ⁓ psychology and clinical psychology was born in the second world war and given all that happened in the second world war clinicians researchers were focused on stress, anxiety, depression all the negative ⁓ part of emotions and they were focused on how can we deal with it. And this shaped also theories, concepts, models, and also shaped psychology. But now and in the eighteen nineties ⁓ was born the positive psychology that told ⁓ to the world Wait, wait a minute. And what about positive emotions? They are also important. That they they live inside us. And we need to recognize them. And also they help us to counterbalance the negative perspective. How can I ⁓ how can I modulate the negative part of emotions without the positive ones? I need to recognize the resources. That people have inside them, I cannot teach them resources that they don't have. It's impossible in this way. And this is where positive emotions can help us. So ⁓ about your question, they're also important from a biological point of view. But it has been demonstrated that if you are ⁓ not necessarily ⁓ every time, every day happy, you don't have to be happy every day. But if you stays in ⁓ calm, if you stay calm, if you are happy, ⁓ also if your dynamic ⁓ stays between happy, calm, sometimes you can be bored is okay, sometimes you can be really sad, and it's also okay. ⁓ biologically talking and also I I I was I I'm thinking about ⁓ a really interesting thing that is the dynamic of emotion. No one talks about it, but it's not in the type of emotions that you are feeling, but it's on the dynamic that you are that you are experiencing. Because ⁓ the more dynamic you are, and the studies have demonstrated it, the more ⁓ emotional health you experience. So also ⁓ from a ⁓ developmental point of view, it's important to ⁓ experience all type of emotions. Of course, if you stay too many times for too long in a s in a type of emotion that is positive or negative, it's not so good from a psychological point of view because you remain stuck. in an in a condition, in an emotion. And it's it's not ⁓ a good outcome in this sense. So ⁓ more than positive emotions ⁓ help us dynamic help us to ⁓ face everyday ⁓ life in this sense right and and what what happens in in in the brain what happens in the body when we experience awe Well my ⁓ I I wanted to open about my first intuition about the brain ⁓ that was definitely wrong when I started studying psychology, first during my bachelor's degree and later during also my master's, when I moved toward neuropsychology, I imagined emotional intensity in a very simple way. Stronger motion, stronger brain activation. That's it. Something like fireworks everywhere, maybe I was imagined, or the brain suddenly going, what is happening? And intuitively it it makes sense almost for me. In if an experience feel huge, overwhelming, or extraordinary, we expect the brain to become louder. This was my initial thought. But the neuroscience of all tells A more interesting and counterintuitive story. ⁓ a very important fMRI study in by Fonelk and their colleagues in 2019 exposed some participants to awe-inducing videos and found the reduced activity in some regions. ⁓ so I I was about okay, I was totally wrong. Okay, let me let me ⁓ explore more about it. And this region ⁓ is called the fault mode w mode network. The default mode network is strongly involved in self-referential processing and mind wandering, thinking about ourselves, remembering the past, imaging the future, and replaying also convers conversation, wondering, constructing our personal narrative. ⁓ In a simple way, it it is one of the brain systems most connected to the ongoing me story. And what ⁓ researcher found ⁓ researchers found is ⁓ important because it gives a neural basis to something that had already been described psychologically, all often reduces focus on the self. In the all literature, this is usually discussed through the concept of the small self. ⁓ it does not not mean feeling worthless or diminished in a negative way. It means that the self becomes less central. Your problems do not disappear, obviously, but they stop occupying the wall screen. It is almost like a camera zoom out. You still exist, but you perceive yourself as part of something larger. And Funelk and their colleagues explicitly connect this reduction in the fault mode network activity with reduced self-reflective thoughts and with participants' perception of their self as smaller. So in this way, awe is often described as a form of self-diminishment or unselfing. The term it's not self-erasure, as I told you before. It means that attention shifts toward from from the self-interest toward the world or other people Or nature, or something that perceived as larger than the individual. ⁓ well, it's it's really fascinating for me that when you experience awe, you stop focusing on yourself and you focus on the all, on a a bigger picture, a bigger perspective, and you are part of it. ⁓ I think it it's also romantic in a certain way. ⁓ yeah. But it's not only the Footmouth networks. Well, some researchers ⁓ focused on this network, ⁓ but ⁓ there are other ⁓ studies that focused on ⁓ other parts of the brain and what happens when we experience all ⁓ with different techniques, other ⁓ researchers, ⁓ I think in ⁓ 2019, yeah, ⁓ showed that ⁓ they they examined ⁓ structure structural brain correlates ⁓ of positive and negative ⁓ because as I told you before a is a complex emotion it's not only positive and not only negative ⁓ it has different parts of positive of what we can call positive and negative. And ⁓ Guan, I think, yeah, then there the Guan and colleagues ⁓ showed that positive A was positively associated with ⁓ regional brain matter volume in an a particular area that is the precune use is a region involved in self-awareness and self-reflection and conscious awareness. And they interpret this as a as a possible link between positive awe and self-awareness, happiness or life satisfaction. But they also observed a different pattern for negative or threat-based awe. Well, negative awe is associated with grey matter differences in another area that is the insula. Is a region involved in interception and bodily awareness. And ⁓ is a region that helps us to process risks and threat related emotions such as fear or anxiety. And this makes sense. If we think about threat haw, for example, watching a tornado or a s a tsunami or a volcanic eruption from a safe distance, it's important to be in a safe distance. ⁓ the experience is still a Because it contains bustness and cognitive accommodations, but it also contains fear, uncertainty, and ⁓ in a certain way also bodily arousal. And these researchers show that positive and negative may feel equally awe-inspiring, but negative awe involves much higher fear and anxiety. So structurally, the brain finding seems to mirror ⁓ the emotional complexity of all. Positive is more connected with a reflective self-awareness and positive meaning, while threat O recruits system more closely related to bodily states, risk, and threat detection. And this does not mean that one brain area creates O, of course, but it suggests that different forms of O may rely on partially different neural architectures, depending on whether the experience is more. peaceful, expansive, or meaningful or more threatening and destabilizing. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's incredible. And I know you focus more on what happens in in the brain, but ⁓ I feel like awe is a pretty all encompassing experience. ⁓ what happens in the rest of the body? Well there are some ⁓ indicators ⁓ that have been analyzed and observed during the experience of awe. ⁓ For example, ⁓ skin conductance. It's ⁓ it has been showed that the the skin conductance is augmented during the experience of awe, but also heart rate variability and the heart rate increases. during these experiences. And what else? There's ⁓ all the some sensations that you can have. For example, ⁓ a gut in your throat that you have you cannot say anything in this moment and this wh this is why awe is so particular because awe arrives before you can notice it. When you are in awe, you can say it later that you have been in awe. But during the moment you are experience ⁓ a lot of ⁓ a lot of stimuli and inside and also outside and you are overwhelmed in the in that moment. So ⁓ it's not not only the brain, but it's also your body that is experiencing and is yeah, he's experiencing awe in this sense. Yeah. I I think ⁓ b also what what you mentioned earlier about ⁓ some not being focused on yourself anymore. ⁓ seeing zooming out, seeing ⁓ the bigger picture, if you will. I I would assume and I'm I'm not sure if if this is ⁓ your your cup of tea of your your study, but that it would have also played a role maybe in some philosophies because usually when you are seeing the bigger picture and not just completely focused on yourself, that usually means that the ego at at least at that point is is is not there at that moment. ⁓ is that something that the like awe does it come up in in philosophy as well, as far as you're aware of? Yeah, it does. And of course, as you can say. ⁓ yes, ⁓ in philosophy ⁓ have awe has been called sublime. That is not ⁓ it's more ⁓ objective in this sense. It's not related to the subjective experience, but is ⁓ more the act of sublime. It is more yes objective. And f philosophers have ⁓ always have been studied as the sublime, but ⁓ when psychology ⁓ was born from philosophy, since psychology is the application of philosophy. Researchers ⁓ felt the the urge to ⁓ call it in a different way and to study it from a subjective point of view. So in this sense, ⁓ Ha was born from the sublime and from philosophy, ⁓ and at the very initial phases ⁓ it has been not so simple to ⁓ describe it. To ⁓ to describe its characteristics, since all belongs to a broader family ⁓ of what ⁓ researcher call ⁓ researchers call self-transcendent emotions. But ⁓ it's still distinct from emotions that can initially seem very similar. ⁓ for example, there's also wonder, for example, and wonder is Often considered a more a more reflective and cognitive component within the broader A family. Both involve amazement, but wonder usually feels less overwhelming. It's more about mentally leaning into an experience and thinking, how is this possible? Or I want to understand this better. So A can include wonder, but A often adds something else: a stronger sense of being absorbed. Motivated or ⁓ almost overwhelmed by experience itself. And there's also another theme about ⁓ philosophy that come up ⁓ to my mind right now. There's elevation. There's a concept strongly associated with what Aid ⁓ said ⁓ about awe, because elevation is the emotion we experience when we Witness ⁓ exceptional moral beauty, extra extraordinary kindness, courage, generosity or virtue in another person. And moral excellence can absolutely trigger awe too, but elevation is much more specific because it stays within the moral domain. Awe is broader. Nature can create awe, music can create awe. Science can create all and also space. Even ideas can create all. What else? You you have triggered ⁓ some ⁓ distinctions in my mind between all and other emotions. I don't know if this can be interesting. Well, okay. What about fear in this sense? Because ⁓ which becomes really interesting also fear because aw also has a darker side, as I told you before. And researchers have described something called yes, threat aw and this experience in front of natural disasters. Well yeah, well like ⁓ I mean ⁓ looking at an ⁓ Avalanche, for example, or or it's a NATO, I can I can imagine that that will inspire awe because it just looks so vast, but is also scary if it's heading your way. ⁓ w what about jumping from an airplane? I think that could be ⁓ a good one, right? Because y if if bungee jumping experience like that, that's yeah ⁓ a fair full experience. But it could also induce awe, probably. Well, maybe, maybe, because ⁓ jumping from an airplane is more about sensation thinking ⁓ sensation seeking, I think. ⁓ because all as a part of contemplation. Well, of course, when you are about to jump from an airplane, you don't have time for contemplation, I think. Maybe just the minute before the jump, but during the activity you're you're full of energy and ⁓ of course maybe some other really activating emotions ⁓ emerge but maybe the moment before or when you look at someone who is doing this activity maybe this can ⁓ recreate ⁓ yes in this case yes because it's the The important thing is that you have also a moment for contemplation. It's so complex that you need the time to reconstruct your point of view or the way you see a thing, but also the situation. And maybe When you are about to jump from the plane, you're thinking about, okay, I have to survive. Maybe I yeah, I want to enjoy this activity, but I also have to survive. So maybe some other emotions come up ⁓ to your mind in this sense. Yeah. And and what role ⁓ do ⁓ drugs play in the science? Because I can imagine ⁓ that there ⁓ may have been some studies into awe induced by psilocybin or maybe ⁓ some other ⁓ substances like like ecstasy like it's literally in the name to be in some sort of higher higher state. Is that something that's being researched as well? Yeah. Of course. Yes. There are some line of re of research about drugs and these ⁓ self transcendent emotions like awe. also about the psychedelic drugs. And ⁓ yes, definitely ⁓ it's not simple given of also ⁓ from the an ethical point of view to go on with this type of studies. Yes. there there are some studies that I'm thinking about that are trying to reconstruct the process of awe not through drugs but through ⁓ some type of ⁓ treatment such as meditation or mindfulness that in a certain way take the individual in a different place. It's not the same that ⁓ happens with drugs, of course, but it's ⁓ how can we call it a more ethical way to study these processes. But of course, there's ⁓ A huge line of research about drugs and complex emotions because what ⁓ happens ⁓ during the absorption of drugs is from a scientific ⁓ and a neuroscientific point of view, it's ⁓ definitely interesting to understand what happens actually, and what emotions can ⁓ can be elicited during these. ⁓ type of ⁓ situations. Yeah. Yeah. And ⁓ what about your ⁓ your own study? You mentioned ⁓ that you're currently in the middle of your your PhD. Can you maybe ⁓ tell me a little bit more about your own work? Yeah. ⁓ I'm currently a ⁓ PhD student ⁓ in ⁓ applied sciences for well-being and sustainability and I ⁓ in my PhD project I'm trying to structure and to create a virtual reality instrument, ⁓ so based ⁓ completely digital and based on virtual reality, ⁓ about ⁓ for the screening of the mycognitive impairment. And in this way, virtual reality could help us, maybe I hope so, not only to screen. ⁓ early cognitive dysfunction but also emotional and social dysfunction that are known to be difficult to detect, even ⁓ especially in the earliest phase of my cognitive impairment. But also I'm ⁓ really interesting in all the parts of how can we measure emotions, how can we elicit them How can we observe them in a longitudinal way? And also given that dementia and my cognitive impairment are ⁓ one of the most recognized worldwide ⁓ problems in health. I think also we need to focus also on the emotional point of view of these kind of ⁓ conditions. So basically I'm studying the cognitive part but also the emotional part. I need that they they are both are necessary. And for me that I come from a clinical setting, ⁓ I cannot ⁓ work and I cannot live without one of these two parts. And what is is the the perfect intersection in this way for me. ⁓ yes. And well, ⁓ I think that it's important to ⁓ to consider also the clinical world. But for ⁓ the reason that I want to understand it better in this sense. And research can help us, can help me to understand the clinical world better. Mm-hmm. And if you if you ⁓ b if we make it specific, so what does the the research look like in practice? How how does it Yeah. ⁓ how how are you using the the VR, for example? Well well ⁓ thank you for this question. ⁓ I ⁓ in my clinical practice I noticed but also I found out that some there are different studies that are pointing out this problem is that in the clinical setting when when you want to assess ⁓ cognition and cognitive functions You have paper and pencil test that focuses on a single cognitive function that is ⁓ without any context that you cannot generalize in everyday life of the person you are assessing, of course. ⁓ for example, ⁓ I don't know if you know how ⁓ cognition is assessed. ⁓ no, no, no. I I I do not actually. Yeah. ⁓ well ⁓ for example when we want to assess ⁓ long term ⁓ memory, we ask people to to recall ⁓ a list of word that are fifteen words and not a lot. And this is the way we assess long term memory. That is okay, I I understand why it is long term memory, but When do in everyday life I need to recall fif a list of 15 words? Never. And ⁓ and this happens for every cognitive domain. So my I I started from this gap. ⁓ well ⁓ these tests are ⁓ difficult to generalize to everyday life, are presented without a context. Why do I have to learn 15 words and to memorize them? It makes no sense in this way. And but with virtual reality, I'm planning to recreate an a a similar everyday context in which to assess these cognitive domains, for example, long-term memory. And because it's different to ask people to remember a list of 15 words, but and to ask them to navigate ⁓ an ambient and to re trying to remember the names of other people or where some objects were placed, because in this way is what happens also in everyday life. And it's really more interesting and it I hope so it could ⁓ help us to ⁓ note and to focus even on the earliest signs of ⁓ difficulties, of cognitive difficulties in this sense. And virtual reality can help us because we can shape the context. We can not only recreate it, but also shape it for what we want to assess. I don't know if I answered your question. Yeah, no, for sure. So if I understand correctly, like you're you're s basically saying like currently if we want to assess whether someone is cognitively functioning ⁓ properly. Then we ask them, can you repeat these 15 words? But that doesn't really give an accurate depiction of what we do in day-to-day life, because when when are you ever asked to remember 15 words? So in a sense it's a it's a new and not so relevant ⁓ experiment to do. And by leveraging virtual reality, we can simulate a number of scenarios which are which more closely resemble everyday life. For example, where where did I leave my my keys? Where where ⁓ did I put my I don't know, my my T shirt or or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course, definitely. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, that's ⁓ that's ⁓ that's I mean that sounds that sounds very ⁓ very promising. Is this ⁓ something that's been ⁓ virtual reality? Is it something that's been ⁓ y y being used more and more to to do all sorts of ⁓ studies? Yes, ⁓ I think it's an incredible instrument and that ⁓ can allow ⁓ clinicians but also researchers to study, to explore and to analyze ⁓ what ⁓ happens in cognition but also in the field of emotions. ⁓ because ⁓ we live on a in a three dimensional world. And the possibility to recreate a three-dimensional world, ⁓ well, it's incredible. ⁓ because of course, ⁓ two dimension stimuli can elicit something, yes, it has been demonstrated, but ⁓ y they don't locate you in the context, in the world. And in this sense, ⁓ virtual reality helps us to recreate that world. to recreate the experience. And I in in recent years it has been ⁓ used for multiple purposes, even for ⁓ for example the the mental health angle from depression and for ⁓ affect ⁓ difficulties in this sense it can ⁓ definitely help to modulate and to To help the study also for these type of ⁓ conditions. Yes. Yeah. And ⁓ if we if you f finally maybe get back to to to all a little bit, you mentioned that it's healthy to have a range of emotions, to have both ⁓ a variety between both positive and negative emotions. ⁓ And that awe is ⁓ kind of a category and that it can you can have positive awe and and negative awe, but generally speaking, would you say experiencing awe is a healthy emotion? Yes, I can say it. Yes, it's a healthy emotions since for example when when we ⁓ because Awe isn't ⁓ isn't simply a pleasant feeling. it is the transformation, the the change, ⁓ the changing is something really useful for for us and for for people as a human being. And as I told you before, implies a shift in perspective. And after that shift, all becomes interesting not simply because it makes people feel good. But because research suggests it may function as a genuine therapeutic resource. Several authors have proposed that awe can act as a therapeutic asset capable of counteracting some of the biological and psychological signatures of ⁓ for example, major depressive disorder and broader affective disorders. Because awe is a deeply transformative emotion, and researchers are in Increasingly studying it not only as a way to enhance positive affect, but also as a process capable of reducing rumination and reconstructing ⁓ rigid mental frameworks. ⁓ to to explain better this mechanism, I told you about ⁓ the image of a matrioska about the R. And this is ⁓ actually the Matrioska model. Proposed by ⁓ Professor Elichi Kiriko and Professor Gajoli, ⁓ which I r personally really like because it's it uses the image of this Russian doll ⁓ with nested layers unfolding over time. And the idea is that odd does not operate at this single level. ⁓ first of all, we have ⁓ for for example, of course, the neurophysiological level, the activation. And ⁓ all the ⁓ brain networks that deactivate and ⁓ activate that I told you before. And this ⁓ for example, is particularly interesting because the default mode network is often hyperactive in ⁓ major depression disorder. So, in this sense, it's strongly linked to persistent rumination. And in a way that may temporarily function. has a kind of biological reset. And some researchers even discuss parallels with mechanisms proposed in, as you told be as you told before, psychedelic assisted therapies in this sense. Then we we move also in a psychological level, that is the small self-sensation. This can be relevant for mood disorders because it directly counteracts the self-blame typical of ⁓ mood disorders and brooding and excessive inward attention. In another, I'm thinking about other ways for help and health ⁓ that all can help us. For example, are at a neuroendocrinal level, the repeated exposure to awe. Has also been associated with lower levels of pro-inflammatory ⁓ cytokine involved in chronic stress and depression-related inflammatory processes, since inflammation increasingly appears linked to depressive symptoms and all may potentially exert preventive or remedial effects, ⁓ even at a biological level. And then we can arrive at the final deeper. level that is the existential level. And depression, ⁓ I I take the I I take the example of depression, but often ⁓ mood disorders involves not only sadness, but also loneliness and disconnection and loss of meaning. And O seems particularly interesting because ⁓ it facilitates self transcendence and connectedness with others, helping people move beyond the narrowed ⁓ perspectives and rigid mental structures. By forcing accommodation, Aw may loosen what researchers call cognitive fixedness, expanding the perceived possibilities and of opening space for new perspectives in this sense. And that's especially exciting these this point because as you can see there are different levels on which R can operate and on which we can use Awe even in for the mental health ⁓ point of view. And it it's amazing. Well, one side we can say, okay, awe is really complex. How can I use it? But ⁓ because it's complex, we can use in different ⁓ domains and it's it's incredible this thing. Yeah. And and how if if people are listening to this and they want to have some more awe in their lives, how can people find awe and and seek out awe? Maybe buy a virtual reality headset, ⁓ maybe yeah, go and and and see some some beautiful nature, but are there ⁓ ways people can introduce more awe into their lives? Yeah. Well, of course there are ⁓ some stimuli stimuli that can help. To feel awe. But ⁓ in I I want to cite a recent work that we are doing that in which we reconstruct awe through a metaphor of growth. And we we try to move ⁓ away from thinking about awe as a single emotional event, ⁓ a brief, only a brief wow moment that appears and disappears. And instead we ⁓ propose an a ⁓ a framework inspired by processes of growth and maturation. And in this sense, it it is it becomes possible to ⁓ to learn how to activate awe in our life. The idea is that ⁓ may work like a develop developmental force, not because it suddenly transforms people overnight, but because it can progress progressively ⁓ expand the way we relate to ourselves and to the world. Growth ⁓ rarely happens all at once. It unfolds through layers, and in offense begins with openness and absorption, but almost a a childlike way of looking at the world, but then moves into disruption, accommodation, meaning making and sometimes toward broader forms of connectedness with others and subtrascendence. What I really like about this metaphor is that it shifts the question. Instead of asking did all happen or not, ⁓ we start asking how did it unfold, what changed, and what become reorganized over time for me. Because maybe awe isn't simply an emotion we experience, is pro is a process that gradually space for me complex ways of seeing. o of understanding and ⁓ relating to the world. It's more I change the perspective with which I approach the world. In this sense, I can train it. I can train my shift of perspecting of perspection ⁓ toward the world. Maybe growth begins exactly here, not when uncertainty disappears. But when we become capable of holding complexity without immediately trying to close it. Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. Wow. Yeah, no, I was listening to you. That's that's amazing. Wha what was the last time you experienced awe? ⁓ well Of course when I was experiencing I haven't re realized it, maybe. ⁓ I can say a very ⁓ little maybe it it can be little, but it's not for me. ⁓ when it it felt like ⁓ realization, ⁓ a moment of like Eureka, but it's not. When I I was ⁓ actually I was ⁓ in my in a trip in Japan and I also ⁓ I ⁓ felt awe everywhere, of course, in Japan f of course, but ⁓ I was ⁓ writing ⁓ the a chapter about awe. And in that experience I was in ⁓ I was trying to to write this chapter and it it was ⁓ really difficult for me. And I stopped a little bit and I said, Okay, let's go out. I was in my hotel ⁓ room and I I told to my boyfriend, okay, let's go out for a walk. And we stepped in this Zen garden that was near our hotel, and suddenly I realized that ⁓ could be interpreted as a a a Zen garden with all these ⁓ sand and the rocks and the plants and how they the monks recreated a space. And in that moment I realized that awe recreates spaces. So I think this was more an idea induced awe in this sense. It's more conceptual. But I felt like Okay, maybe now I understood it. I understood a little part, of course, a little part of all. So that was a moment, I think. Yeah. I really like that. And it really shows how versatile the emotion is. That it can be both from a a visual experience, an auditory experience, or even a a a mental experience, right? Something that's happening within your brain. ⁓ beautiful Gloria. Well is there anything that we haven't discussed that you would still like to mention that is important? Well I think we c we covered covered a lot. Yeah, I think so. Yes. Cool. ⁓ where where can people go if they want to keep up with your research and ⁓ yeah, stay updated on everything awe? Yeah, of course. They can follow all the updates of Professor Alicia Kiriko that have been studied all since years, and is really is a really passionate researcher and professor, but also all our ⁓ group that I'm Gloria Simoncini and I'm PhD student, but also Professor Kiriko, and also some works about ⁓ emotions and the dynamic. of emotion there ⁓ it's it links really ⁓ really good with ⁓ there is ⁓ the dr Francesca Borghesi and Dr. ⁓ Eleonora Sarcinella and ⁓ they all all our group ⁓ studies emotions in a different way complex simple emotions dynamics so we are an emotion group if we can say it yeah That's awesome, Gloria. I I this was so ⁓ it was awesome. Let's just call it awesome. I had a great time. ⁓ this was ⁓ very, very interesting. And ⁓ yeah, I learned ⁓ I learned a lot today. So ⁓ I really really appreciate you. I'll make sure to put ⁓ the links and and where to follow ⁓ the work ⁓ in the show notes. And ⁓ yeah, maybe we can ⁓ run it back someday if ⁓ if there's some ⁓ some updates in ⁓ in the the literature. Yeah, of course. Of course. And thank you, Julius, for this opportunity and for this convers ⁓ conversation. Thank you so much.