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Transcript

"Real World/Road Rules Challenge: Impeachment Inferno." · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: On today's pod, Tommy and I will dig into the
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: latest developments in Donald Trump's impeachment, including a vote in
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the House to formalize the process, and more damning testimony
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: from Trump's own employees. We'll also talk about the challenges
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: that Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are facing in Iowa,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: and look ahead to some very big elections coming up
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: on Tuesday in states like Virginia and Kentucky. Before we
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: get into that, Tommy, how was Pod Save the World
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: at J Street this week? Worldos take Washington?
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: They really did. By the way, it's funny. I haven't
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: seen you in like two weeks because you're in Milwaukee
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: right now. I'm in Des Moines. Before that, I was
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: in DC, which was very weird. But yeah, Ben Rhodes
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: and I did three days worth of stuff with J Street,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: which is an awesome progressive organization that's pushing for a
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: two-state solution between Israel and Palestine and more progressive foreign
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: policy generally. And so we did a live podcast, which
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: we released this week with some amazing guests and activists.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: And then We talked with five presidential candidates about U.S.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: policy towards Israel. And what was pretty cool about the
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: whole event was the entire party moved to the left
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: when it comes to a more progressive policy position on
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: aid to Israel. All of them talked about potentially— well, several
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: of them talked about potentially conditioning Israel. U.S. aid and
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: assistance towards Israel if they annex the West Bank or
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: if there's continued settlement construction. So it speaks to how
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: badly Bibi Netanyahu has played his politics by making, you know,
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: hugging the GOP and the Trump administration in particular. So
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: check out the episode. It was a lot of fun
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: to do. And they're a great organization.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: I watched the video of Bernie Sanders answering that question
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: that you just spoke about. And it was funny. He
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: was really getting into it. And then you just see
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: you and Ben just looking up and smiling. And look
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: at the Democratic Party now. It's great.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: It was so funny, man. I mean, so we'd done five.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: He was the fifth conversation of five. And it was
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: like a serious affair, right? We're talking about like wonky,
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: nerdy policy stuff. And then Bernie walks in. grabs the mic,
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: starts talking shit to Ben and stands up and just
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: gives this like barn burner of an opening statement followed
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: by the Q & A. And it was hard not
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: to smile and just sort of be in admiration of
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: him coming into this event and just knowing exactly what
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: to do. It was impressive.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: That's awesome. Well, everyone go give that a listen. And also,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: our new daily news podcast, What A Day, officially became
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: the most popular podcast in the world this week. at
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: least according to the Apple podcast charts, which never lie.
• 2:58
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• 3:01
  Speaker 1: right away. Please go. I mean, we know, look, it's
• 3:04
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• 3:06
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• 3:08
  Speaker 1: A Day yet? Here's the thing. It's 15 minutes in
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: the morning. It's now my morning routine. I had never
• 3:13
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• 3:17
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• 3:29
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• 3:31
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• 3:34
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• 3:36
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• 3:39
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• 3:44
  Speaker 1: Adam Frankel, who is the very first speechwriter I hired
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: on the Obama campaign way back when, has written a
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: book called The Survivors. a story of war, inheritance, and healing.
• 3:55
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• 4:08
  Speaker 1: It is out today. It is a fantastic book, so
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: check that out too. Agreed. Okay, Tommy. Moments ago, the
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: House of Representatives passed a formal resolution that establishes the
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: process for the impeachment of Donald Trump It was the
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: first time the full House voted on impeachment. 232 Democrats
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: supported the measure, plus former Republican Justin Amash. All 196
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Republicans rejected it, plus two Democrats, Jeff Van Drew of
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: New Jersey and Colin Peterson of Minnesota. And there were
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: a couple members who were just not voting today, weren't there. Tommy,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: before we get into the politics of all this, what
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: does this resolution do? And what kind of process does
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: it actually set up here?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: So it basically lays out the procedures for how the
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: impeachment inquiry will be handled going forward. It talks about
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: the committees that will deal with it. It talks about
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: the amount of time they'll have for questioning and how
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: much time will be allotted to the majority and the
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: minority members of the committee, so the Republicans and the Democrats.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: It talks about the release of transcripts from private definitions.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: It's like it's a bunch of process stuff like subpoena power,
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: how the White House will be able to participate in
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: the process. So things that they wanted to get locked
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: down and get in paper. And that was probably very
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: important to the various members of Congress who will be
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: in charge of these things. But pretty in the weeds
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: for your average voter, I think.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it basically it basically sets up the public phase
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: of the hearings.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: Like we have been there's been all this closed door stuff.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: testimony that has mainly been these depositions as the House
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans on the relevant committees have been sort
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: of gathering information. It's the information gathering stage. This basically says,
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: all right, here's how these public hearings are going to work.
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: I do think one thing that's interesting in it is
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: the chairman and ranking member on the Intel Committee, which
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: is going to be the committee that does these public hearings,
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: and the chairman is Adam Schiff, and the ranking member
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: is our favorite doofus, Devin Nunes. Um, they each get
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: along with staff lawyers, if they want 45 minutes in
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: a row to question each of these witnesses, which I
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: think is fantastic because then you don't have like, you know,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: a minute of some Congress person giving a speech and
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: then they ask a question. And then just as you
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: get into it, you have to go to the next
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Congress person. And it's like hard to follow like Adam
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: Schiff or a staff lawyer grilling some of these witnesses for,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: you know, 45 minutes straight on live TV. I think
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: it'll be great. It won't be so great when Devin
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: Nunes does it, but it'll be great when Schiff does it.
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: I totally agree. I mean, to me, that was a
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: sign that they're taking this very seriously and that Democrats
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: finally have learned the lesson from these hearings that if
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: you jump around from member to member and leave it
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: to them, they will make annoying speeches that get us
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: no information. You know, some members are very good at it, right?
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: AOC has proven to be a very deft questioner, but
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: the majority are not. So I'm glad Adam Schiff set
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: that up.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it also gives the Republicans on the committee the
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: same kind of rights that they had in previous impeachment
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: inquiries in Nixon's impeachment inquiry and Bill Clinton's. So Republicans
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: can request witnesses and subpoena testimony and documents if it's
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: approved by Schiff or the full committee. Actually, what happens
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: is the Intelligence Committee does these hearings, they write up
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: a report, and then they send it to the Judiciary Committee,
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: who actually writes up the formal articles of impeachment. And
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: during that process, Trump's lawyers would be allowed to present
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: a formal defense of him and cross-examine witnesses once it
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: gets to the judiciary, though Nadler says he reserves the
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: power to shut that down if Trump continues to obstruct justice,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: defy subpoenas and all that bullshit. So it seems pretty fair.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that seems smart, right? Quite recently, Matt
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Geitz and a bunch of morons tried to bum rush
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: the committee hearing room and physically shut it down by
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: live streaming from a secure information facility. So I think
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: it's important to set up some ways to prevent that
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: from happening.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: So Democrats weren't required by the Constitution to take this vote.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: A D.C. judge ruled last week that they weren't required
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: by the law to take this vote. Pelosi had been
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: worried about making the moderate Democrats in her caucus take
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: an impeachment vote too early. Why do you think they
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: did this? And do you think it was the right
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: move to hold this vote?
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: I don't totally understand why they did it. Like you said,
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: they didn't need to have this vote. I think that
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: the Republican attacks about the process to date have been
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: made in bad faith. I think that's obvious to everyone.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: And if it wasn't obvious then, it's obvious now because
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: As soon as the Democratic side agrees to have a vote,
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: the Republicans have shifted to another bad faith attack where
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: they try to claim that everything that happened before this
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: vote is somehow not.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Acceptable, right?
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: So House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy tweeted, today's backtracking is
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: an admission that this process has been botched from the start.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: And then some senior Republican House aide went on background
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: to CNN to say, you're never going to hear us
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: stop highlighting the unfair process. So that is their only argument.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: To some extent, the Democrats played into it, I think,
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: by having this vote. But I guess you had to
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: have a vote. Maybe some Democrats think you had to
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: have a vote sooner or later. So they just wanted
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: to get it over with. But, you know, I'm not
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: that worked up about it.
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, me neither. I don't have super strong feelings, but
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: I do think it is calling the Republicans bluff, basically.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Like my thing in this entire impeachment hearing is like
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: we should. We need to dismantle their bullshit defenses one
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: by one, very calmly, very firmly. And, you know, this
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: entire thing is making sure that we can dismantle all
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: of their bullshit excuses without giving them any legitimate excuses
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: to call foul. Right. And so I also think it's
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: a recognition, by the way, that, you know, Pelosi would
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: not have taken this vote if she didn't have the votes.
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: And she certainly she had the votes. Right.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: She only lost two Democrats. So she knew she had
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: the votes. And the reason she knew she had the
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: votes is because she knew that the politics around impeachment
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: have shifted so quickly over the last month that it
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: no longer was super worrisome for a lot of these
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: moderates to take the vote. So she felt confident. And
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: if she felt confident about the votes, I guess the
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: thinking is like if they're going to keep bitching about
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: process this whole time. Why don't we just tell them,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: here we are. We're happy to have this be a
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: public process. We're happy to have you question the witnesses
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: as well. We're happy to have Adam Schiff release all
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: of the testimony. Go for it. We're not the ones
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: who have a problem with the substance of this case.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: You guys are.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: That's exactly right. I mean, look, shifting to a conversation
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: about the substance of these charges is necessary to move
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: public opinion. It's necessary to have an impeachment inquiry generally. So,
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: you know, it was inevitable that that was going to happen.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: It is annoying to that Mitch McConnell can refuse to
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: give a Supreme Court justice nominee a hearing. And it
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: ultimately doesn't matter because all Washington, D.C. cares about is
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: power and it rewards power and winning. And Democrats, you know,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: get this responsibility gene worked up in their brains and
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: they ultimately move to a fairer place and listen to
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: these process concerns when the bad faith tax will continue.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: But again, I don't think it's that big a deal.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: No. And so, like you said, you know, after After
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Democrats agreed to give Republicans the very public hearings and
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: due process protections they've been demanding for weeks, obviously, you know, Tommy,
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: Republicans thanked them for the show of good faith and,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: you know, pledged cooperation and finding the truth wherever it
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: may lead them. No, I saw before we started recording
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: on the House floor, fucking Steve Scalise, who's the number
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: two Republican in the House, had like a big poster
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: up next to him as he was speaking, calling this the...
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: The one-sided Soviet-style process. Jesus, come on. I mean, what
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: does this tell us about how Republicans sort of view
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: this entire process?
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: I think that they're nervous about the substance, right? I mean,
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: they all say it on background and they therefore don't
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: want to talk about it. And you're even starting to
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: see Donald Trump complain that he's not getting defended on
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: the substance of the charges and that he wants members
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: to start shifting to that conversation. So I don't think
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: that's a place where a lot of people want to be.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, here's the key, right? The New York
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Times upshot did a poll of six battleground states and
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: they found that 52% of voters oppose impeaching and removing
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: Trump But 52 percent of voters also support an investigation.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: And so our job as Democrats is to shift those
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: numbers and get it so that a majority of the
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: country opposes impeaching because they learn about all these substantive
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: details that will hopefully be discussed at great length in
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: the open hearings.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: That is exactly right. So, you know, in that poll.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: there's basically 10% of people, it was eight to 10%
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: of people in those six battleground states. And those are
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: the toughest states, right? Those are all six, all six
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: of the states they polled are states that Trump won
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: in 2016. So there's 10% of people who support the
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: inquiry right now, but don't support his removal yet. And
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: those are the people that we have to be thinking about,
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: that I think Nancy Pelosi is thinking about, that a
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: lot of the moderate Democrats are thinking about, which is
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: they're willing to listen to this investigation, but They want
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: to hear evidence. They want to hear facts. And for
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: that reason, that's like one of those people are sort
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: of the reason why I think the vote was a
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: good idea. And being very public about how it's going
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: to be a fair process is a good idea because
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: Steve Scalise is bullshit on the Soviet style impeachment. It's
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: going to work on Fox, obviously, and it's going to
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: work on all the right wing crazy websites. But those
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: aren't the places that that that 10% of people who
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: support the inquiry but don't necessarily support removal, they're not
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: just Fox News watchers. They're getting their news from other places,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: and they're probably willing to hear people try to make
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: a good faith case. At least one would hope, you know? Yeah.
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, here's what makes me nervous, John. I think
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: it was that same poll. Voters said that they thought
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: that the president's comments and actions related to Ukraine and
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: trying to investigate Joe Biden are typical of what politicians do.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: 47% thought that. versus something that's worse of what a
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: typical politician does. So this is, again, it speaks to
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: the structural advantage that Republicans have. They are trying to
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: make it look like every politician is the same. They're
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: all cynical. They're all corrupt. They're all terrible. And Donald
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Trump is certainly helping them advance that message. And we
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: need to fight back on that.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: It's the single biggest challenge we have. And I'm not
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: surprised about that answer in the poll because any poll
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: question you ask, Or is this just typical of Washington
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: or typical of politicians? It doesn't matter what's on the
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: other end. People are so fed up with Washington and
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: do think that most politicians are corrupt, at least, you know,
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: not partisans on each side as much, but most of
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: the people who are undecided or who don't pay as
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: close attention to the news, that's what they think. And
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: it is going to be incumbent on the Democrats during
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: these public hearings to make people understand that what Trump
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: did was not only wrong, but... you know, something that
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: jeopardizes the free and fair elections in 2020, right? That
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: it was exactly what the framers had in mind when
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: they thought about impeachment in the first place, the concern
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: about foreign influence on our elections. And I think it's
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: impossible for Democrats to make that point too much.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Yep, I agree.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Do you have any worries about the two Democratic defections,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: Jeff Van Drew and Colin Peterson? I mean, they're both
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: sort of known as pretty conservative Democrats. I know Colin
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Peterson's in a district that Trump won by like 30
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: points or something. So it's, you know, it's not too surprising,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: but it is too.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I mean, I'd be lying if I said
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: I didn't find it annoying. But at some point, I
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: feel like you have to let moderates just kind of
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: have their own opinions and work their own politics and
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: not get too worried about it if it's not preventing
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: the impeachment inquiry from going forward.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And, you know, Sounds like Jeff Van Drew might
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: be one of these 10% of people in those battleground
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: states because he said, or it might be the opposite,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: because he said, I didn't support the inquiry, but now
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: that it's passed, I'm willing to hear all the evidence
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: and might change my mind. So, great. Good for you,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Jeff Van Drew. I mean, look, be open-minded.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: That's all we can ask.
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Let's move on to the parade of former
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: Trump officials who will soon be watching testify against their
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: old boss on national television. On Tuesday, the House heard
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: private testimony from Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, who is currently
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: the top Ukraine expert on Trump's National Security Council. Colonel
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Vindman defied White House orders not to testify because he
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: was so disturbed by the call he heard on July
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: 25th between President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelensky. Tommy, before
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: we get to what Colonel Vindman actually said, Why is
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: he such an important witness in the impeachment inquiry, even
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: before we knew what his testimony was going to be?
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: So a couple of things. I mean, a lot of
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: President Trump's argument is that the whistleblower's account was all
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: second or third hand and that there was no one
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: who actually heard the call who was corroborating the charges
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: made by the whistleblower. I'm not sure how that argument
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: really flies when we've all read the transcript, but whatever
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: or something they were saying. Vindman was on the call
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: and he listened to it. He's also a decorated officer
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: in the United States Army. He's a Harvard educated Ukraine expert.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: He is an incredibly impressive guy that will be hard
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: to attack, I think. Now, I just want to offer
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: a quick pet peeve aside here, which is that I
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: have enormous respect for Colonel Vindman's military service and his intellect.
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: But I do think it's sometimes a mistake when we
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: We lionize the background and pedigree of some of these
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: witnesses and like only focus on their military service or
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: what might be because foreign service officers deserve great respect
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: and appreciation for their work. So do the CIA officers
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: who seemingly blew the whistle on this in the first place, right?
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Like you don't need to have the perfect pedigree. to
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: serve as a character witness. You could be a partisan
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: hack with a terrible past and still offer important information
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: about Trump's criminal behavior. But you are seeing, you know,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: the far right, we'll talk about this later, the far
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: right is saying disgusting things about Vindman. But even like
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: Liz Cheney and some really rabid conservative Republicans refuse to
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: attack him personally in the way the.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Fox News, you know, MAGA world is. Yeah, I mean,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: I think the background is important. only in as much
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: as it goes to his motivations, right? This guy is
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: a public servant through and through. He's served his country.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: He's fought for his country. And then he's worked for
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Democratic and Republican administrations, including he decided to go work
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: for Donald Trump. You know, the idea that Donald Trump's
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: calling all these people never Trumpers. They all worked for him.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: They all chose to work for him. He chose to
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: hire them. His people chose to hire them. So he
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: was happy, you know, Colonel Vindman, decided to go work
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: for Donald Trump after serving his country. And also, I
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: think we have to put ourselves in the shoes of
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: some of these people, which I know is tough. But
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: imagine you have all these bosses, including the President of
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: the United States, the National Security Advisor, all these people
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: you're working for. You've been in the military, so you've
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: sort of been trained into thinking about sort of the
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: chain of command. And you listen to a call that
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: the President of the United States has with a foreign leader.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: And you're so disturbed by that call that you actually
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: say something about it to your superiors. That's a big
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: fucking deal. And it's not. And if it was one person,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: when it was just the whistleblower, it was one thing.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: the whistleblower, Bill Taylor, Fiona Hill, Vindman, like how many
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: people working for Trump do we need to let us
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: know that this thing was really, really bad?
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I got to work with a dozen people
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: like Colonel Vindman on the NSC. And frankly, his incredible
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: background and intellect like is fairly typical of the people
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: who work on the NSC, right? It's the best and
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: the brightest get brought over from agencies for these details.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: So like it's extraordinary to see be a lone, like
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: you're not a big, you're not a hotshot if you're
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: the Ukraine expert on the NSC, you're a fairly low
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: level guy. For him to hear this call and just
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: feel like in his bones that what he heard was
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: immoral and to blow the whistle on that is a
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: really ballsy move. He also testified that the substance of
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: the call differed from the call record and that he
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: tried to add the word Burisma to the record. I
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: believe President Zelensky of Ukraine had said Burisma. And in
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: the quote unquote transcript that we read, that word was
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: missing probably because the software didn't pick it up. But,
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: you know, it also makes the decision to ultimately put
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: this transcript on the code word level extra secret server
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: even more suspicious when we know that Vindman had hand
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: edited an early draft of that transcript and said, hey,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: add this word, this word, this word to make it
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: reflect what was actually said.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is a very big development. I mean,
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: we know that the summary of the call that the
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: White House released was bad enough and an impeachable offense
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: on its own. But if part of what the White
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: House defense is, which it is, and the right-wing defense is, oh, well,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: we released the call. The call was perfect. We have
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: nothing to hide. we think everything was fine. Why would
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Trump have done all this stuff on a phone call?
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: You know, Trump said, I think he tweeted this morning,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: why would I have said all this shit on a
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: phone call if everyone was listening, you know, and I
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: knew everyone was listening. Well, this shows that they did
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: try to cover it up. They did try to cover
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: it up. They were, there were words missing from the
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: transcript and however they ended up missing, you know, some
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: of them are blaming it on the software, not hearing
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: the word Burisma. Um, Vindman, Colonel Vindman, tried to put
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: the words back in. They were the correct words. And
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: then the White House rejected it. And then he went
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: to a White House lawyer, John Eisenberg. This was reported
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: in The Washington Post late tonight or this morning, who
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: deals with national security issues for the White House. He's
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: the White House lawyer. And Vindman said, look, the president
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: just did something wrong. He did something wrong on this call.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: And here's the call summary. And here's what he did wrong.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: And then, according to Vindman's testimony, Eisenberg move the transcript
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: to this secret server. So a White House lawyer knew
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: he did something wrong.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Right. So I believe the explanation that the transcription software
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: and the folks who make that initial transcript miss the words,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: because that's usually handled. In my experience, when I was
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: at the White House, that was handled by the team
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: that worked in the sit room, who are like nonpartisan
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: folks who come from the intel and defense world. And
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: they're just like the nicest people in the world who
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: do their jobs. They're not political. They're not partisan hires.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: It is, as you say, very obvious, though, that Vindman's
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: edits were ignored by people that were like political hires
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: by Donald Trump. And that makes it incredibly suspicious. Vindman also,
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: by the way, did a good job, I think, contextualizing
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: and explaining the damage of this kind of like corrupt
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: horse trading from a Ukrainian perspective. I know that won't
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: be front and center in this case, and it's not
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: going to move votes. But it is important to understand
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: that Trump and Rudy were constantly undermining people in Ukraine
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: who are fighting corruption and withholding military aid, which is
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: pretty unacceptable.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you know, in his opening statement, he said,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: you know, I didn't think it was proper to demand
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: that a foreign government investigate a U.S. citizen. It used
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: to be something I thought that everyone would agree on.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: And then he said, I realized that if Ukraine pursued
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: an investigation into the Bidens and Burisma, it would likely
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: be interpreted as a partisan play, which would undoubtedly result
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: in Ukraine losing the bipartisan support it has thus far maintained.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: this would all undermine U.S. national security. It's an interesting argument, right,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: that I have not heard one of the witnesses make yet,
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: that if Trump had got his way and Ukraine investigated
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: the Bidens, suddenly Democratic support for Ukraine, an ally, is
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: lessened because they decided to get involved in U.S. politics
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: and interfere in U.S.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Politics. Totally, man.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: And it's totally fair.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: This is Trump's M.O. I mean, look, when when he encouraged, forced,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: whatever word you want to use, Bibi Netanyahu to block
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: two Democratic members of Congress from visiting Israel, that was
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: pretty intense politicization of support for Israel and something that
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I think will do did some damage in the Democratic
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Party for a long time. So, yeah, it's a pattern.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: And the other thing that Vindman raised aside from so
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: he was on the call, the July 25th call with
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: with Trump and Zelenskyy. He was also at, and this
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: meeting's getting a lot of attention, this July 10th meeting,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: where two Ukrainian officials come to the White House and
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: they meet with Ambassador Sondland, Vindman is there, Bolton is there,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: Fiona Hill is there. And that's when basically Gordon Sondland
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: raises that Ukrainians need to announce investigations into Joe Biden
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: and his family if they hope to get either a
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: White House meeting or some of the security aid. And Apparently,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Bolton was so upset, he cut the meeting short. And
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: then Sondland continues to take these Ukrainian officials into the wardroom,
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: which is the sort of side room near the White
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: House mess, and continue to press them on these investigations.
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: You've got to investigate the Bidens. And Vinland heard them
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: talk about the Bidens in Burisma, and so did Fiona Hill, apparently,
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: according to her testimonies. which also raises the possibility that
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Sondland was fucking perjured himself because he said, I never
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: knew it was connected to the Bidens in Burisma.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Like, I just, I remember walking down that little hallway
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: to the situation room a million times. And on the
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: left is the White House mess where we'd get coffee
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: and food and snacks. And then the right, you go
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: in and you slide your key card and you can
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: get access to the situation room and all those areas.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: And then as you just described, the ward room is
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: a little ways up the little hallway we were just
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: talking about. And The thought of having Gordon Sondland organizing
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: a shakedown of these Ukrainian officials in that space is
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: so disgusting to me. First of all, he's a moron, right?
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Everyone's overhearing him do this. It wasn't subtle in any way.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: He's dragging these guys from one meeting to another. John
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Bolton's flipping out, kicking everybody out of there. But it's like,
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: It's such brazen corruption in a space that is supposed
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: to be apolitical, at least, or at least focused on
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: national security. It's disgusting. Yeah.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: And apparently, Vindman testified that Fiona Hill, who's one of
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Trump's Russia advisors, was so upset by it, she actually
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: became emotional when she tried to break up the meeting.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think this is all going to be
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: important in the public testimony for what we were just saying, right?
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: It's because There's a whole lot of people who can
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: be like, well, doesn't this kind of shit happen all
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: the time, right? Like isn't this what politicians do? Isn't
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: this horse trading? Isn't this policy differences? And you're going
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: to have a bunch of public servants, officials who are nonpartisan,
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: nonpartisan but worked for Donald Trump, chose to work for
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump saying, no, no, no. We've been doing this
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: for years for presidents of both parties and this is different.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: This is bad and this is different and this is immoral.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: And I think that's super important as we move forward.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: So the Republican response to Vindman's testimony was decidedly mixed.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump called him a never-Trumper. Rudy Giuliani and Laura
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Ingraham accused him of being a double agent for Ukraine.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Torture memo writer John Yoo accused him of espionage. And
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Sean Duffy of the Real World and the Real World
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Road Rules Challenge said that he's Ukrainian and has an
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: affinity for Ukraine. I don't know. What was your reaction
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: to all of that?
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: First of all, great hire, CNN. Sean Duffy, way to
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: land that one. I just wish Sean had as much
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: compassion for Colonel Vindman as he did for Montana and
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Genesis during the real world Boston. He was a former lumberjack.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: I'd love to see him bury the hatchet like he
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: did with Jason when Jason was arguing with his girlfriend, Timber.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: I was reading the real world Boston wiki page before.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: It was a good season. It was a good season.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: It was a good season. I really liked Cyrus. Like,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: this is the dregs of the Republican Party. John Yoo,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: Laura Ingram. I mean, look, Liz Cheney is out there
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: defending Min Min. You're seeing all kinds of Republican senators. Like, look,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: shout out to Mitt Romney, right? Mitt Romney has been
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: calling out this kind of stuff and criticizing it when
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Trump crosses the line into attacking some of these folks.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: So it feels pretty desperate. What it does seem to
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: do strategically is it creates— Space like these right wing
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: lunatics push the envelope as far as they can to
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: create space for almost as gross but not as awful attacks. But,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: you know, when Trump calls Vindman or other people who
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: testify never Trumpers, we also know that he defines that
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: as scum because he tweeted it. So, yeah, it's not
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: good overall.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: No, Trump referred to a an Iraq war hero who
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: worked for him as human scum because he found it
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: inappropriate that the president United States tried to get a
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: foreign government to investigate a U.S. citizen. That's where we are.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: This whole Ukrainian double agent bullshit comes from, you know,
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: a complete misunderstanding of the report. The New York Times
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: reported at one point the Ukrainians reached out to Vindman
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: and said, what are we supposed to do with fucking
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani? You guys have a state department. You have
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: all these officials that are supposed to be doing policy
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: with Ukraine. And the president's personal lawyer is like trying
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: to bully us into doing investigations. Like, what should we
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: do about that? And Colonel Vindman said, you know, just
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: gets that request and is like, well, he's part of
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: the process and he's trying to talk to them. And
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: so because Colonel Vindman responded to their questions about Rudy Giuliani,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Laura Ingram, Fox, Giuliani, all these people are saying that
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: he's a double agent and is advising Ukraine. That's the
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: lie that they're, that's what they're saying about that. Just
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: so everyone knows where that's coming from.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's two pieces of this, right? I mean, the
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: Ukrainians reached out to Vindman because that's his job. He's
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: the right person for them to reach out to, not
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: the drunk lawyer on Fox News, one. Two, they're basically
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: saying that But Vindman's loyalties are somehow in question because
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: he moved from Ukraine to the U.S. when he was three,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: unlike the rest of us who were just born in America. Like,
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I did nothing. I thank you, mom, for making me
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: an American. Like, I didn't have to fight for it
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: the way he did and countless others did. So it's
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: just it's like the most cynical, ridiculous nonsense. I think
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: the good news is here is like it's not going
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: to fly. That's not going to convince anybody.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you can see the Republicans problem here, right?
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Because Kevin McCarthy's response is like, I don't I don't
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: question his patriotism at all. I think he's a hero,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: but I just have a disagreement with him. And it's like, OK,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Kevin McCarthy. Well, what is the disagreement? Your disagreement is
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: the disagreement that you believe Trump pressuring a foreign government
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: to investigate an American citizen and his political opponent and
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: then dangling. congressionally approved aid until they do it. You
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: think that's okay? That's your difference of opinion with the
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: colonel who used to work for Donald Trump? Oh, interesting.
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, McCarthy's basically in the call was perfect camp along
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: with Donald Trump.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: So we should mention that other Trump officials have testified
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: this week. On Wednesday, two State Department officials, Catherine Croft
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: and Christopher Anderson, testified about Rudy Giuliani's shadow diplomacy in
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: his scheme to get Ambassador Yovanovitch fired. Today, Thursday, Tim
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Morrison is testifying, who's about to be an ex-Trump NSC
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: official working on Russia policy. You might remember Bill Taylor
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: testifying that Morrison saw Gordon Sondland tell the Ukrainians that
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: they weren't getting the military aid until they agreed to
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: smear Biden. That's another person who was in that meeting.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Tim Morrison was in that meeting on July 10th with
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Vindman and everyone else. And, of course, it was announced
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: on Wednesday that Morrison is leaving the National Security Council. Yeah,
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: no shit, huh? What is the significance of all these witnesses,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: do you think? What is this all doing to Trump's defense?
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, they're just so sloppy. They didn't outsource the
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: dirty work to Rudy Giuliani and leave it outside the
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: walls of the White House. There's a lot of people cooperating.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: You count from the whistleblower, all the things we're hearing
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: about withholding the military aid, withholding the meeting. I mean,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani and Trump, corrupted people in the NSC, in
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: the White House. There are going to be documents, there
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: are going to be records and emails that probably talk
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: about some of these conversations that we're reading about. So
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: it feels like there's a significant paper trail. There's a
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: lot of witnesses to come. It's a fairly airtight story.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, including it appears that we will hear from the
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: stash himself, John Bolton, former national security advisor, whose lawyer
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: said he will not be appearing voluntarily. But would certainly
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: entertain a subpoena.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: Bolton has been signaling for a while that he's taking
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: care of number one here. He doesn't like Donald Trump.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he doesn't like Donald Trump. And look, I think
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: the interesting thing is if it's one witness telling this story,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: you know, you can try to attack the credibility of
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: one witness, right? If it's just John Bolton, let's say, right?
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: National security advisor, but maybe people say, oh, well, you know,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: he had a grudge against Donald Trump because Donald Trump
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: didn't want to start as many wars as Bolton did, right? Which,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: you know, is probably true. Mm-hmm. But you have Bolton,
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: like when you have five or six or seven or
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: eight of these people telling the exact same story and
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: they're on national television telling it over and over again,
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: like I think it's going to hurt. Republicans may still
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: do their thing, you know, like they're still going to
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: shout crazy conspiracy theories. And at the end of the day,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: they might vote like they voted today in the House
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: to protect Donald Trump. But that kind of testimony from
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: all these people who used to work for Donald Trump,
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: his former employees, will be devastating to the people watching
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: at home, I think.
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: There will be days and days of testimony that tell
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: a story about deep corruption in Donald Trump's dealings with
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: the Ukrainians. And there will be a subset of the electorate, 20,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: 30 percent, that will only watch Fox News and will
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: never hear about those allegations because they'll turn on Sean
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: Hannity at night and we'll be talking about Hillary Clinton's
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: server or some bullshit. But the vast majority of people
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: will be exposed to this story.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Let's hope. All right. Let's talk about 2020. Tommy,
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: you're on assignment in Iowa, which is the center of
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: the political universe right now. All of the candidates will
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: be in Des Moines tomorrow night, Friday night, speaking at
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: the Liberty and Justice Celebration, formerly known as the now
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: problematic Jefferson Jackson Dinner. Before we get into some of
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: the challenges certain candidates are facing, do you want to
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: talk a little bit about why this event has traditionally
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: been such a big deal? Yeah.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: It's funny. You and I are having the polar opposite
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: political experiences right now. Yeah. I don't know if you
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: want to talk in detail about what you're doing, but
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: I'm basically in Iowa hanging out with campaigns and young
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: field organizers. And just like it's this like life affirming,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: inspiring time. And you're in Milwaukee doing focus groups with voters.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: And it seems a little different.
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: It is a lot different. So I I've been sort
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: of hinting at this for a while, but I'm doing
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: a second season of The Wilderness. And we're going to
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: have six episodes for the second season that will be
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: out sometime early in 2020, hopefully before the Iowa caucuses.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: And for this season, I decided to sort of base
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: it around four focus groups that I did in four
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: different regions of the country that we need to win.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: So for the last two weeks, I went to Philadelphia, Miami, Phoenix,
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: and now I'm in Milwaukee. And I talked to groups
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: of 10 to 12 voters in each place, and they're
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: all swing voters, but different kinds of swing voters. So
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: in Philly, it was Democrats, people who vote all the time,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: but they don't pay much attention to the news. They're
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: very disengaged and they're sort of weak Democrats. They're not
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: like super partisan. In Miami, I talked to people who
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: voted for Barack Obama in 2008 or 2012 and then
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: decided to stay home in 16 or vote for a
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: third party candidate. And in Phoenix, I talked to Romney
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Clinton voters, former Republicans who voted for Hillary Clinton. And
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: then in Milwaukee, I talked to Obama-Trump voters, but not
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: just Obama-Trump voters, Obama-Trump voters who then in 18 voted Democrat,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: who voted for Tony Evers, the governor here, and Tammy Baldwin,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: a Democratic senator, to talk to all these people. And
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: I will just tell you, we have our work cut
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: out for us. And it's not because, I mean, I'll
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: say more in the wilderness, it's not necessarily because people
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: have super partisan views one way or the other, or
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: even because these people are apathetic. These people care a
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: lot about a ton of different issues and they talk
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: passionately about them. We are in such an information bubble,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: not a partisan bubble, an information bubble where we pay
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: so much attention to all of this shit all day
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: long because we're obsessed with politics and obsessed with the news.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: And if you're listening to Pod Save America, you know,
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: you're probably one of these people who's very, very informed.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Most of these people had no idea. They A lot
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: of them couldn't name any of the Democratic candidates except
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: for Biden and Bernie. Few people knew Elizabeth Warren here
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: and there, but most of them didn't know most of
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: the candidates. Most of them didn't know anything about what's
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: going on in impeachment. All they could say is we
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: heard a lot of people testified for many hours and
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: it doesn't seem good for Trump. That's what a lot
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: of them said. And so just the and a lot
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: of them don't. I should say a lot of them
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: didn't like Trump. There's a couple of people who are
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: going to vote for Trump again or thinking about for
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Trump again in these groups. But a lot of people
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: really don't like him. but there's not a lot of
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: love for the Democrats or the Democratic Party just yet,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: mainly because they don't know much about them. Yeah.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: Tons and tons of work to do, as you said,
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: but that sounds fascinating. My only real people focus group
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: was I went to an orange theory class, which it
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: confirmed my hypothesis that if you want to make the
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: worst playlist known to man, just go to sort of
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: mid-market orange theory classes all over the country and it's
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: already there for you. But yeah, I was talking to
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: some people who everyone's just friendly in Iowa, right? And
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh, She's like, oh, you work in
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: the media.
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Where?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: I told her. I was like, what do you listen
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: to and watch? Oh, nothing. I kind of just turn
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: it all off.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: I don't really like politics.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: So that's like the normal person. But like so that
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: for the Democratic Party in Iowa, this weekend is the
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Democratic Party's Liberty and Justice Dinner. It used to be
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: called the Jefferson Jackson Dinner, the JJ. So it's a
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: huge event. I was talking to Troy Price, the Iowa
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: Democratic Party chair yesterday, and he told me that they
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: have sold 13,500 tickets to this event and that he
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: could have sold it out many times over. When we
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: did it, John, in 2007, it was in an auditorium
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: that held about 9000 people. And you remember that thing
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: was rocking. So it's interesting this year. So the 2007
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: JJ was much closer to the caucuses. It was 54
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: days out between the JJ and the caucuses. This year,
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: it's 94 days out. There's basically another month in between.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: So things feel it feels much closer to the election
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: day out here. You can feel the tempo increase. I've
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: hung out with some field organizers from the Warren campaign
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: and the Booker campaign.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: So far.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: And I'm going to go see some other folks today
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: and you can see how tired they are. But like
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: that's still a lifetime in campaign terms.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think the reason that the event has
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: traditionally been such a big deal is that this is
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: basically like, you know, you see all these candidates on
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: stage together at debates and But debates are sort of
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: awful and you get a few sound bites off and
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: that's it. You see them together at what are known
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: as cattle calls. So like a certain organization will put
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: on an event and all the candidates will come and
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: they'll talk about a specific issue. This is basically an
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: opportunity for every candidate running to give, you know, what
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: is essentially their closing argument before the Iowa caucuses. Their
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: best case for why they should be president as opposed
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: to all the other people who are running. And at
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: least that's how we saw it. You know, like we
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: went into the J.J. and I think we were in
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: the hunt in Iowa. Right. We were like I don't
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: know if we were second or third, but we were
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: up there and we're doing better. We're doing better. But
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: but nationally it was bad. We were like down by 10,
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: 15 points nationally. And we knew that Barack Obama had
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: one real chance at that J.J. to both show organizationally
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: with how many people we got there and through his
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: speech that he was a real contender and could make
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: his case. And from the speechwriting point of view, like,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, you remember this because you were in Iowa
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: all summer listening to Stump's speech. It was long. It
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: was meandering. He was going to go. He was going
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: like 40, 50 minutes at some of these events in Iowa.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: And so the good thing about the JJ is it
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: forced Obama to deliver a 10-minute speech because you can't
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: go over the time allotted. And you can't read the
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: speech or read off a prompter or read it off
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: a piece of paper. So he had to memorize the speech.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: And it was hell-bent. working on that speech. But I think,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: you know, it really worked. It was his best case.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: It turned out to be his best case for his candidacy. Yeah.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: And you're delivering that case directly to, in this year,
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: it'll be 13,500 Democrats. You're also, you know, it's a
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: chance to hone your message and deliver it in front
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: of these folks and show that you're ready to beat Trump.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: But you also get a chance to show off your organization.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: So all the campaigns are doing like pre-rallies, And the
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: sign war stuff where you just like dance around on
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: corners and hold up signs that say whatever your candidate's
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: name is on it or message or whatever to show
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: that you have a big groundswell of people behind it.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: So for us in the Obama days, we had sort
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: of a pre-rally and then we had the president and
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: the first lady march, right? Then Senator and Michelle march
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: in front of this army of people up into the auditorium.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: And I think it really like stunned people how organized
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: we were. The wild thing this year, man, is like
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: I keep waiting for People's schedules to be like, oh,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: I'm doing, you know, 30 stops over the course of
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: this week. It's not just the Liberty and Justice dinner.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: That's a cattle call this weekend. Then there are two
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: forums the next day. Oh, my God. Friend of the pod.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: Abby Finkenauer has her first ever fish fry event in
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Cedar Rapids. So it's like cattle call to cattle call
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: to cattle call. So I'm still waiting for folks to
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: hit the extreme late Iowa tempo. Maybe they haven't yet
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: because we do have that extra month in between the
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: dinner and caucus day. But I'm wondering why the intensity
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: doesn't feel even higher right now.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess there's still some time. People still want
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: to keep some gas in the tank for the December
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: and January sprint to the caucuses. But look, I will say,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: you know, my piece of advice to candidates and their
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: speechwriters and advisors, if you're still working on the speech,
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: which you probably are, even though the speech is tomorrow night,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: dig deep on this one. Don't give us the same
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: stump lines that you always give. Don't Don't try to
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: find some catchy call-in response with the crowd that sounds
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: like it came from a consultant that's like really cheesy.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Don't think of a cheesy slogan. Like think about really
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: why you want to be president, why you should win.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: You know, make the case for why you're the best
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: candidate to beat Donald Trump and also why you'd be
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: the best president. And just do it on your own.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Like think. Think to yourself. Dig deep on this one.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: Don't throw out the cheesy lines because they never work.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: They never work in a situation like this. Yeah.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: So I went and hung out with some of the
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: folks from Iowa Starting Line, which is a great follow
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: on Twitter, a great new website that's really covering the
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: caucuses in depth. And they had the exact same advice.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: They're like, if you go in there and you give
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: the damn stump speech you gave a year earlier or
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: the same jokes, they will notice. They will hate it.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Do not do that. You're not introducing yourself. You're making
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: an argument for why you should win. And you're doing
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: it in contrast to all the others that are speaking. So,
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: you know, this is a big, big shot. It's a
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: big opportunity.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: I wish I was there. I really want to see this.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: Me too. It's fun. I'll be watching it on C-SPAN
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: probably Friday night like a nerd. Okay.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: There's going to be like 12 speakers in a row,
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: so it'll be long.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: That is brutal. All right. So one candidate in particular
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: who could use a big night is Joe Biden. Bloomberg
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: News published a piece this week headlined, Joe Biden in
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: Danger of Humiliating Loss in Iowa, Top Democrats Warn. The
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: story says that the former vice president is failing to
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: spend a lot of time with voters in the state,
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: that he's not doing the kind of retail politics you
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: need to do in Iowa. and that his campaign's outreach
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: hasn't been all that effective. Tommy, what did you think
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: about the piece? And what have you seen and heard
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: from Biden's operation in Iowa?
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, I've heard that kind of sentiment
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: from a lot of folks. I mean, right now, it
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: feels like Biden is sort of half running in Iowa.
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: He did two events yesterday in eastern Iowa. He's in
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Maquoketa and Dubuque, which are good places to be. Today's
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: in Fort Dodge. But, you know, it's not that extreme
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: tempo yet. It's not five stops a day. Meanwhile, his
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: polling is kind of steadily ticking down and his people
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: on background are arguing that they don't think they need
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: to win Iowa or win New Hampshire because they've strengthened
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: Nevada and South Carolina in particular because Biden does better
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: with African-American and Latino voters. But I guess I would
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: argue to them, I mean, if that's your belief and
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: that's your strategy, then go there and campaign there and
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: dominate those states and signal that you're downgrading Iowa. You
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: don't think it's important this time around. Now, I don't
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: think that's necessarily a good strategy. But I think being
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: halfway is the worst of all worlds.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Well, and I think one of the reasons it's the
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: worst of all worlds is because it's costing him a
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: lot of money that he doesn't have. Yes. Right? Like he,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, Ron Brownstein wrote a piece about this for
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: CNN and he ran some figures about what everyone has
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: spent so far on TV there. Pete Buttigieg spent $ 2
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: million on ads there. Bernie Sanders.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: And it's helping.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Bernie Sanders, $ 1. 7 million. Biden, $ 700, 000. I couldn't believe this.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: I thought it was a mistake. Warren hasn't run any
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: TV ads yet in Iowa, and she's still in that
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: polling position, which.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: Is so amazing. Yeah. Look, I was in a coffee
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: shop doing work yesterday, and there were three Warren field
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: staffers there. I spent a bunch of time with her team.
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: They are a force to be reckoned with. They are ubiquitous.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: They remind me of the Obama 08 team because they're
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: so enthusiastic. Now, this isn't necessarily a fair comparison, right?
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: I haven't spent a lot of time with Bernie's people, yeah,
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try to do that tomorrow. I'm going
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: to try to see Pete's folks. But, you know, look,
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: the Warren people gave us a ton of access and time,
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: I think, because they're running a really impressive organization and
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: they're building slowly and steadily.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, I mean, just to go back to Biden
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: for a second. So his campaign has already said that
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: he doesn't need to win Iowa, right? But then there
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: was also a poll this week from New Hampshire, the
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: second state after Iowa, that showed Bernie Sanders at 21%,
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren at 18%, and Biden at 15%. Now, I
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: know that Biden's team is counting on him winning the
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: fourth state, which is South Carolina. It goes Iowa and
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: New Hampshire. The Nevada caucuses, which people don't talk about enough,
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: is between New Hampshire and South Carolina. And so in
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: South Carolina, Biden has this commanding lead right now. Do
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: you think he can wait that long to win a
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: state and still win the nomination?
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: I think it's very hard. I mean, I think it's
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: a reasonable conversation to have whether about whether Iowa, New
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Hampshire are as important this year as before. Certainly the
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: races become more nationalized, right? The DNC rules force campaigns
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: to reprioritize their spending so that they get more donors
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: and they make the debates. And certainly the national narrative
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: is driving things in ways that I don't think I
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: don't think I experienced in 2007. But here's what I
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: also know to be true. Despite all the jockeying by
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: states like California to move up the calendar and the
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: talk of de-emphasizing Iowa, all the candidates are treating Iowa
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: like it's more important than ever. They're all here this weekend.
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: They're building huge organizations. Kamala Harris is basically shutting down
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: her Baltimore-based operation and moving everyone to Iowa because the
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: election goes through Iowa. And it's not because of delegates.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: It's because of the massive earned media bounce you will
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: get if you do well in the state or if
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: you surprise people in the state. The state that seems
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: downgraded this time a little bit to me is New Hampshire. Like,
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: you're not seeing anybody run a win-New Hampshire strategy that
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: I'm aware of.
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: I was just going to say, like, ironically, I think
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: the reason Iowa is more important than ever is because
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: of the nationalization of the primaries. Because if you win Iowa,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: there is going to be— and look, the focus groups I
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: spoke to the last two weeks sort of reinforced this
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: for me. There are so many people in this country,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: Democratic voters, people who are going to vote in these
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: primaries who are still paying zero attention to what's going on.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: And they know of Joe Biden. There's a lot of
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: respect for Joe Biden out there. There's not a lot
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: of like huge passion, but there's a lot of respect
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: for Joe Biden out there. They know Bernie Sanders. A
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: lot of people like Bernie Sanders because they ran last time,
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: but they have no idea who some of these other
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: candidates are. They're going to wake up the day after September.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: someone wins the Iowa caucuses. And for the first time,
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: really start paying attention to the race. And that person
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: who wins the Iowa caucuses is going to be introduced
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: to the whole nation in a way that they have
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: never been introduced before the whole country time and time
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: and time again. And if you've lost the Iowa caucuses
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: at that point, you are going to be branded a
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: person who just lost. And most people who vote in
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: these primaries will know is, that guy lost, she lost,
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: he lost, and that person won, so I better take
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: a look at that person who won. That's it. It's
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: as simple as that.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: And the other thing you'll get is just a huge
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: infusion of online donations, which will help you start running
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: ads in the later states and build organizations there, and
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: it will just snowball.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Now, I will say the argument on Biden's side here,
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: and this could prove to be true as well, is...
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: In South Carolina, obviously, something like 50% of the Democratic
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: electorate is African-American. And then from South Carolina, you go
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: right to Super Tuesday three or four days later. Super Tuesday,
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of the states in Super Tuesday have significant
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: African-American and Latino populations. Biden still has, in every single poll,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: a commanding lead among black voters. And Elizabeth Warren and
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: Pete Buttigieg... don't have much support among black voters right
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: now in any polls. Bernie Sanders has some among black
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: voters and Latino voters, for sure, more than Warren and Pete. But,
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: you know, Biden's folks are thinking, well, if we can
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: maintain that lead and even if we lose the first
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: three contests and then win South Carolina, we're set up
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: well for Super Tuesday because there's going to be so
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: much black voters and it is impossible. And this is
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: where they're right. It is impossible to do well in
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Super Tuesday with only white voters. Yeah.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: I think that's right. Although those numbers wouldn't make me
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: feel great if I were Joe Biden because I still
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: would worry that a lot of it was name recognition.
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: And frankly, early support tends to be soft. I mean,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: you're seeing even in Iowa, I think two thirds of
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: caucus goers say they could change their minds. So, you know,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: and those are folks who are really focused.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Yep. I totally agree with that. So another candidate who's
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: betting big on Iowa is Kamala Harris. Her campaign announced
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: this week that she's laying off a bunch of staff
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: in her Baltimore headquarters and redeploying others to Iowa. consultants
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: were taking pay cuts. Her campaign manager wrote in a memo, quote,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: plenty of winning primary campaigns like John Kerry's in 2004
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: and John McCain's in 2008 have had to make tough
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: choices on their way to the nomination. And this is
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: no different. In recent Iowa polls, Harris has trailed Warren, Biden,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders, and Pete Buttigieg. What do you think, Tommy?
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Smart move? Only move?
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, it's not the headline you want.
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: It's not the place you want to be. But if
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: I'm a Kamala Harris supporter, I want her team doing
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: something drastic like this, right? Like more of the same
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: is not going to win you the nomination. Kamala Harris
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: is playing to win. So she's going to redeploy people
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: to the state. She's going to focus on the state
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: where the first vote is going to happen. And I
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: think it's her best chance of catching fire and getting
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: some momentum and getting one of the tickets out of Iowa.
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: I mean, frankly, if I were a donor or a
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: supporter of another candidate, I would want to know why
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: the hell they aren't taking drastic steps like this, because like,
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: are you playing to finished sixth in Iowa and limped
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: into New Hampshire and drop out? Or are you playing
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: to win? You got to focus your resources on the
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: states where the vote's going to happen. It seems obvious.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: I totally agree. And look, obviously campaigns, when they put
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: out memos like this, they know they're going to be public.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: And so there's a lot of spin in them. I
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: will say what her campaign manager said about John Kerry
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: in 2004 from personal experience was absolutely correct. I mean,
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: we often talk about how Obama was behind when we
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: won Iowa. Well, we weren't nearly as behind as John
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Kerry was in the primary in 2003 at the time.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, we were on that primary campaign. I'll tell you,
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: I was right out of college. We were like left
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: for dead. John Kerry at one point fired his campaign manager,
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: half the staff left with the campaign manager, bunch of other,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: we had no money. It was looking really bad. Most
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: of us were like, there's no way this, we're going
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: to be out of jobs pretty soon. And then John
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Kerry goes on to win the Iowa caucuses and win
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: the Democratic nomination. Yeah.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, so I worked for Edwards in 2004.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: And right. I mean, we were out of money at
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: the end of the year, at the end of 2003.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: They pushed our paychecks into the next year to make
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: it so we didn't go bankrupt and to have more
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: cash on hand. So, yeah, campaigns do desperate things.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: John Kerry, I think, mortgages house in 2004 and cut
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: himself a big check to get that last bit of
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: advertising on TV.
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: So.
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Look, campaigns have come back from far worse situations than this.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean it's easy. And I think it's probably
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: harder this year, given how many good candidates there are.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: But like, it's not impossible.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: That is that is the big difference is back in,
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: you know, for, you know, there was a lot of
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: love for Howard Dean. Beyond Howard Dean, though, it's not
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: like any of the other people ahead of John Kerry
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: and John Edwards were like beloved and had some like
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: huge base of support. I do think because it's so
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: crowded up there with, you know, Biden and Bernie, Pete
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: and Warren, all four of whom have these growing solid
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: bases of support. I think it's much harder to pierce
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: that pierce that front runner status there if you're a Kamala.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: But look, she's making the right moves organizationally, I think.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: I think the question for her is the question that
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: she's always had to face, which is, you know, what
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: is her message? What is her rationale? And she's one
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: of the best critics of Donald Trump in the Democratic field.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: I think she is one of the most charismatic candidates
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: out there. I think she is brilliant. I've always been
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: a Kamala Harris fan. She is like, you know, we've
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: interviewed her. We know her. She's just a wonderful person.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: She's so smart. And I just I think she needs
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: to break through with a message that is that says
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: why her and why not the other candidates at this point.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: So I think she's one of the JJ I hope,
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: you know, really, really brings it.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the thing that would give me some hope for
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: her team is she is super competitive. She wants to win.
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: She's playing for keeps. So if there's a will, there's
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: a way.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: All right. So we've been talking a lot about 2020,
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: but there are a few big elections right here in 2019.
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: On Tuesday in Virginia, Democrats have a chance to take
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: control of the legislature, meaning they would have the governor's
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: office and the legislature. Tommy, what would that mean? for
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: the people of the Commonwealth of Virginia?
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: It would be huge.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: It could be huge.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: They could be the 38th state to ratify the Equal
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: Rights Amendment, which would mandate that states and federal laws
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: give people the same rights regardless of their sex, which
• 56:02
  Speaker 2: is a huge deal. They could raise the minimum wage.
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: Democrats could raise the minimum wage to $ 15 an hour.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: Virginia lawmakers could pass gun control measures. They could restore
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: voting rights to people who were formerly incarcerated. We will
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: be in a much better position ahead of redistricting. It's
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: a big, important deal. And, you know, I feel like
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: Democrats are focused on it, but we could do even
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: more in this final push.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I noticed there was a Washington Post story today
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: about these races and Republican legislators who are running in
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: suburbs and suburbs now they're very nervous about because Democrats,
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: especially in Virginia, have done very well in the suburbs.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: They're running ads with themselves in pictures with Ralph Northam,
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: The Democratic governor talking about bipartisanship, talking about how they're
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: for minimum wage, too. I mean, these Republicans are trying
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: to run as Democrats because they're so scared about this race,
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: which is a great thing. It's also very deceptive. So
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: be careful. So they you know, we should call them
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: out on their bullshit there. But you look, we only
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: need to flip a few seats here. And that's what's
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: really important. And so, you know, if you want to volunteer,
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: there's volunteer opportunities near you. If you're near Virginia, if
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: you're in D.C., there's also remote volunteer opportunities. You can
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: go to votesaveamerica.com slash volunteer. People in Virginia need your help.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: We really, really want a Democratic legislature. Yeah.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: And just a quick thank you to Crooked Media listeners
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: across all the shows because we raised $ 230, 000 for some
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: really targeted candidates in those Virginia state legislative races. And
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: that's a credit to people who listen to these shows
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: and really, really care about politics, even at the local level.
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: And it's just it's pretty amazing.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: Yes. Thank you. It made a real difference. Other big
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: election is in Kentucky. where Democrat Andy Beshear, the state's
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: attorney general, is trying to unseat Matt Bevin, who has
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: the distinction of being the least popular governor in the
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: country with a 33 percent approval rating. What's at stake
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: in this race, Tommy?
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: Well, Bevin was trying to gut education funding, teacher pensions.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: He was undermining the state's very successful Medicaid expansion. So
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: which obviously, you know, there are enormous implications of that
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: from opioids such as general health. So, look, I mean,
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: Kentucky is a tough state. But boy, would it be
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: fun to win this one and make Mitch McConnell sweat
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: about 2020.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, and look, it's amazing that we even
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: have a chance here, partly because Bevin is so incredibly unpopular. But,
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: you know, it doesn't get much redder than Kentucky, especially
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: in this age of polarization. So we should be under
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: no illusions how tough this race is. But because Bashir
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: has a chance, we should also be all in on this.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: And Again, there are remote volunteer opportunities at votesaveamerica.com slash
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: volunteer if you want to help in this final stretch.
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: There are also important races all over the country. In
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: other states like Mississippi, Louisiana, there's mayoral races, district attorney races,
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: ballot initiatives, including a ballot initiative in Washington state that
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: would make it the 43rd state to support affirmative action.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: So go see. again, if you're one of the lucky
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: voters with an election on Tuesday, you can find out
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: what's on your ballot and make a plan to vote
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: at votesaveamerica.com. So go check that out.
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: Check it out.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: That's all I got, Tommy. Anything else from you?
• 59:24
  Speaker 2: No, that's all I got. I just want to give
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: a shout out to Governor Steve Bullock and his campaign
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: for getting the mooch to endorse him via a $ 100
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: purchase on the Cameo app. That is hilarious.
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: Good work. That is the funniest thing. One of the
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: funniest things I've seen in this whole primary.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: Good for you, Steve Bullock.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Good for them. All right, man. Have fun at the JJ.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: Wish I was there and report back on how it was.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: All right, buddy.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: Will do.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: Talk to you guys later. All right.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Later.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Later.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: Pod Save America is a product of Crooked Media. The
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: senior producer is Michael Martinez. Our assistant producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: our sound engineer. Thanks to Carolyn Reston, Tanya Somanator, and
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: Katie Long for production support. And to our digital team,
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: Elijah Cohn, Narmel Coney, and Yael Freed, and Milo Kim,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: who film and upload these episodes as a video every week.