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REWIND: The Penguins Tank for Mario · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hi everybody and welcome to the Pittsburgh Sports Memories Podcast, where if we ever do a bad episode, it is totally unintentional.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Tim Hannon, and with me is uh Steve Wirt.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: In this episode, we're going to talk about uh a time when one of our sports teams intentionally lost for a very good reason, and it's the time that the Penguins tanked in an attempt to draft a guy named Mario Lemieux.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to start this off, Steve, just by talking about this idea of tanking.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because lots of pro sports teams have been accused of doing this over the years.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the Houston Rockets in the 1980s were accused of doing this so that they could draft a Kim Elijah one.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: The Cubs and Astros in the 2010s were accused of losing on purpose.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: The Philadelphia 76ers in the NBA a few years ago.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that was a whole uh scandal with them supposedly trying to tank.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: And even current Steelers assistant coach, Brian Flores, has stated that he was told or instructed to lose games by the owner of the Miami Dolphins on purpose when he was their coach.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: So lots of talk and lots of accusations of teams tanking.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to talk about like what's the difference, do you think, between a rebuild and tanking?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_03: Because a lot of the teams I mentioned did things like trade away their best players.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you know, is what's the difference?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Because you could if you're trying to rebuild, you're gonna dump high price talent, you're gonna just kind of reset things, you're gonna start over.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but what but what's the really the difference between a rebuild and an intentional tank?
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_04: Well, uh I guess it's just a matter of degrees, I guess.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_04: I mean I I don't that's tough to like define because you say you're gonna like get rid of people that are high-priced veterans and go with younger players, but I guess if you don't have a very well-stocked like minor league system, I don't know about football how that would work because there's no minor league system in football.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_04: Well, college football technically, but it's not like in the middle of the season you can call up like you know, I don't know, people play in Alabama or something.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: I guess I guess in football you could trade your star your um better players for draft picks.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_04: I guess that would sort of be the equivalent in football.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_04: But how would that like unless you're having like a seven-win season where you're like, okay, we're not going anywhere.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_04: Let's trade everybody and you know, try and get higher draft picks.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_04: But even that's problematic because the person you're trading to, like, let's say you trade to like the Rams who won the Super Bowl.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_04: Well, wouldn't they be picking like 30th in the draft since the draft order is set you know by your record of the previous season?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_04: So I think in football it'll be tough, but like it seems like more of a hockey and baseball thing, or well, especially hockey and basketball.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think baseball because the draft is so meaningless in baseball.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_04: But like it seems hockey and basketball for some reason.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_04: I guess too, like in those sports, if you get like one really good player, it like really sets your franchise up for years because like in football it can help, but it'll sell tickets, but it won't necessarily win you championships.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas I think like if you get like a Wayne Gretzky, you get like uh Michael Jordan, you get like I don't know, like a Bill Russell, like you know what I mean, like a Shaq, you're gonna win for a long time, and people are gonna come and fill your stadium to do that.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I yeah, I think the point I'm I'm trying to make is that uh tanking really falls into a gray area, right?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_03: Because on one hand, you you know the integrity of the sport suffers if one team's not trying their best.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_03: And you have things like people betting money on this, obviously, but you also just have fans need to trust that what they're watching is legitimate.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_04: But but doesn't that benefit you if you know somebody's tanking?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_04: You just that's the ultimate better's dream.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_04: You just bet against them every time.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_04: But you know, but you don't but you don't know that.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: That's the problem.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: And and then on the other hand, if you're a fan of the team, you know, if if your team stinks, you'd rather see that team get a good draft pick the next season rather than finish and say second to last place.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: And and and you know that that's been going on for years.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, there's a famous story that is often referenced of when the Philadelphia Eagles fans threw snowballs at Santa Claus.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_03: Have you ever heard that story, Steve?
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah, because Santa was drunk, I guess.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_04: No, the reason well.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_04: The fans were drunk.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_04: Santa was drunk.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's Philadelphia.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_04: Everybody was drunk.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know though why they the fans were in such a foul mood that day?
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: It was because it was the final game of the season and the Eagles were actually winning, and the fans all wanted them to lose so that they could get the number one draft choice and take OJ Simpson out of USC.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that worked that worked out better for them.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_03: The fans, the fans in Philadelphia wanted them to lose.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_03: So again, if you're a fan, sometimes you want your team to lose.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_03: And I think going back to your your thing, Steve, about you know, betting, betting on the team is tanking, one of the things people don't think about when they accuse teams of tanking, it's really a difficult thing to pull off.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I I have three reasons why I think it's really hard to pull off tanking.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_03: Number one, you can't look like you're tanking.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: No sports league is going to allow that.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: And and like you said, the NHL and NBA are probably the two prime examples of draft picks being more meaningful.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: And both of those leagues have instituted draft lotteries to discourage teams from tanking.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: And in fact, some folks have called on the NFL to do the same thing.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: So you can't look like you're tanking.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_03: Number two, the players are never going to be in on it.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_03: If you're a player, what's in it for you to lose and have somebody come take your job next year?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_03: Plus, other teams are watching.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_03: You could be a free agent at some point or trade bait at some point.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: You're not going to mess up your own career to lose on purpose.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: You have no investment in the team.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then third, coaches and general managers are going to be hard pressed to be in on it as well, because just like the players, their job is at stake.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: The fans are constantly calling for their heads.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_03: So other than the ownership, who really benefits from losing intentionally, right?
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that's why it's a hard thing to pull off.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean it's definitely I think it's been done for sure, but like I mean you could do it on the sly, like you know, just oh, we're just not gonna put our best team out there.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that's that's really what you have to do.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: You have to be very uh sneaky if you're gonna pull this off.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_03: And that's actually and that's exactly what we're gonna talk about in this episode with the penguins in 1984.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: So let's set some context first.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about the penguins before 1984.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: The the teams founded in 1967, that's when the NHL expands from the original six teams to 12 teams, which is really a watershed moment for the National Hockey League that really puts them on the map as the fourth major North American sports league.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: And the Penguins start slow as most expansion teams do, but they start getting some traction in the mid-70s, and they turn into an annual playoff team during that era.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: They're in the playoffs almost every year in the mid-70s and into the very early 80s.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_03: Their best season comes in 1975 when they sweep the St.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_03: Louis Blues in the first round, and then they take a three games to nothing lead on the New York Islanders in the second round, but then they famously blow the lead and lose that series as they often do anytime they're playing the Islanders.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_04: I blame John Denver for that.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_04: There was like they ended up like taking a couple days, like there was a long break, I think, in between there when they had their three-game to nothing lead.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_04: And one of the reasons was there was a John Denver concert.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_03: Nice.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, I that's fine.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: We can blame the league John Denver for that collapse, and not the players and coaches and everybody else.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh around that same time, the team is is in all kinds of financial trouble.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_03: The IRS actually padlocks the doors to the Civic Arena, and the Penguins are forced to declare bankruptcy.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_03: There's talk that the league is going to relocate the team to Seattle.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I think the worst part of all this is probably the fact that Pittsburgh barely notices, because this is the decade where the Steelers and Pirates and Pit Football are all winning championships.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_03: And the hockey team, even with some moderate success, is really a distant afterthought for many fans.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: The Pens obviously do end up staying in Pittsburgh, and they are purchased by the DeBardolo family, who also owns the San Francisco 49ers.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_03: And as the 1980s roll around, the 49ers are winning championships, but the Penguins are still kind of just muddling along.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: They attempt to change their uniform colors to black and gold.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_03: They used to be blue and white, but they changed the black and gold to match the Steelers and Pirates, but that doesn't really do much either.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_03: And by 1983, they're the worst team in hockey.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: They only win 18 games in 1983, which is pretty bad.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_04: Did they play 80 games back then?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: I wonder.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, they did.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: Oh wow.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_04: And they only won 18 of them.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_04: That's rough.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_04: And that's when they were trying.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_04: So nobody will notice, probably, I'm thinking.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and the good news about being the worst team in hockey is that you get the number one pick in the next draft, right?
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: Well, nope.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_03: The Penguins had traded that away to the Minnesota North Stars for Anders Hackinson and Rodden Meegan.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: That sounds like a fair trade.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, great, great pick.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_03: They also got Minnesota's first round pick, but that was like in the middle of the round.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_04: Well, Anderson Hackinson was awesome.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_03: The 1983 draft, by the way, produces Pat La Fontaine, Cam Neely, and Steve Eiserman in the top ten.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: So those were all guys that the Penguins could have drafted.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_04: They're no Ron Meegan.
• 10:59
  unknown: Come on.
• 11:00
  unknown: Come on.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_03: So needless to say, entering the 83-84 season, the Penguins are a franchise who has had nothing but bad luck.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: They're playing in a city which at the time is hemorrhaging residents due to the collapse of the steel industry.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: We've talked about that in previous episodes, how bad things were in Pittsburgh during the 1980s.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_03: And there are actually more people attending the home games of the Pittsburgh Spirit, who is a major indoor soccer league team at the Civic Arena than there are people attending Penguin Games.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: The Penguins had lost$3 million in 1983.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: The team just really doesn't have anything going for it headed into the 1983-1984 season.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_04: Is this the movie Slapshot?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_04: Because it really sounds like the plot from the movie slash.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: Is Paul Newman involved?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: It may as well be.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: And again, I where's the Hanson brothers?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and again, I don't think anybody really there were certain penguins certainly had their fans.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it wasn't like nobody cared.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: But when you're getting out attendance by the major indoor soccer league, that's just not a good place to be.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_03: So entering that 1983, 1984 season, the team is really led by two men.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: The general manager of the team, Eddie Johnston, and the head coach, Lou Angotti.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to just talk about both those guys for a second.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_03: Eddie Johnston was a former NHL player.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: He had won a couple Stanley Cups as a backup goaltender for the Boston Bruins.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: And he had actually been the head coach of the Penguins for the previous three seasons.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_03: But in the spring of 1983, the Penguins general manager, a guy named Baz Bads Baz Basstein, who had been the general manager for the previous eight years, he's driving home after a dinner when he collides with a motorcycle on the Parkway West, and he's tragically killed at the age of 63.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_03: So here they are late in the 83 season, and the general manager is killed.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: So Johnston steps in as the interim GM, but going into the 83-84 season, he says, look, I don't want to do both these jobs because I don't think I'll be able to do both of them at full effectiveness.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: So he steps aside as head coach and assumes the general manager duty full time.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_03: So to coach the team, they hire Lou Angotti.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: Angotti was also a former player.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, he was the first ever captain of the Philadelphia Flyers.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_03: We won't hold that against him.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: And he had been coaching the Penguins farm team and was known as kind of a strict disciplinarian who the pens thought could maybe help mold the young players.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's funny how history repeats itself, Steve, because how many times have they hired the farm team coach?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_03: Terrian, Balsma, Sullivan, right?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and normally it's very successful.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_04: Normally it works out for them.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's just a well that the penguins have gone to over and over and over again throughout the decades.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_03: The news of Angotti's hiring is met with just total yawns by the locals.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: That day's Postgazette Sports section, I went and dug up the Postgazette Sports section from the day he was hired.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_03: It features an article on the Pirates beating the Dodgers, the Steelers re-signing defensive tackle Gary Dunn, and then way down at the bottom of the page is the headline that the Penguins have hired a new coach.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_03: At that same press conference where they introduced Angotti as the head coach, Eddie Debartaloo Jr.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_03: announces that he's going to take more control over the day-to-day operations of the team because up until this point, Debartaloo family had been very kind of hands-off with their management of the Penguins.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: Instead, they were focusing more of their efforts on the 49ers.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: Debartaloo also says that he plans to spend more money on players in free agency.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: And he plans plans to spend big in the upcoming dispersal draft, which is interesting because the NHL was about to dissolve the St.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_03: Louis Blues.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_03: And we talked about this in a previous episode, Steve, uh, when we were talking about the uh the turn of the century Pirates and how they got all those players from the Louisville team that was dispersed.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I think you asked the question, what would happen today?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_03: Well, in 1984, when the NHL was planning to dissolve the Blues, they were going to have a dispersal draft.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_03: And the Penguins would have had the first pick in that, being the worst team from the year before.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, that obviously never happens, uh, but it's an interesting story that if you want to hear more about, hopefully there's a St.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_03: Louis Memories Sportscast that can or podcasts that can talk about that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_04: I wonder how they pulled that out of the fire, huh?
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_04: Whoa.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, again, good good topic for who's ever doing the St.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: Louis Memories podcast.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: So in the summer of 1983, you know, the the point being there, no one's thinking tanking.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, it's just the opposite.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, the the the ownership is coming out saying, hey, we're gonna be more involved, we're gonna spend more money, we're gonna get these dispersal draft players, we're gonna coach up the young players, we're gonna build a winner just like we did in San Francisco with the 49ers.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_03: So that's the mentality heading into this season.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_03: So the season itself starts off pretty slow.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: The Penguins have a lot of young players who aren't very good, and and they also have some unfortunate injuries.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_03: By Christmas of that 83-84 season, they're 9, 23, and 5, which is not great.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, obviously nine wins, 23 losses, but it's also not like worst in the league, kind of terrible.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_03: And they're also finally starting to get healthy.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: And in early January, they're set to play back-to-back games against the New Jersey Devils, who are the team with the worst record in hockey.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: And and again, going back to the old Post Gazette articles, there's actually a story in the Post Gazette about how if the Penguins can sweep the Devils in this in this home and home series that they're about to play, they'll actually be in good position to catch the Capitals for the final playoff spot in the Patrick Division.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: So, so just to set some context for that season, January of that season, they're talking about a playoff spot.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: If you can believe that.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, wow.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that that, you know, and and again, it's it's so the Penguins my point being to all this, there were there this was not something that they devised months before the season and they just set this plan in place like we're just gonna tank this whole season.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_03: In January, they're still thinking playoffs.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: Well, that two-game series against the Devils, the Penguins drop both of those games, and they give up 10 goals in the process.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: And that really kind of marks the end of any playoff talk.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like this team is definitely going to finish with the losing record, it's definitely gonna finish out of the playoff race.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's now just a question of how low they're gonna finish.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Meanwhile, in Laval, Quebec, there's a kid playing in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League and he's lighting up the competition.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_03: That kid's name is Mario Lemieux.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: In 1983, so Steve, in this league, in the in the Quebec Major Junior Hockey League, they play 70-game seasons.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_03: In 1983, Mario scores 84 goals in a 70-game season.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_03: In 1984, he follows that up with 133 goals in a 70-game season.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_03: Can you even imagine that?
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like I get I get it's not the same competition as the NHL.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: But my God, 133 goals in a 70-game season.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_03: I I just can't even fathom that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: Uh that's a lot of goals.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_04: And that's and I I think too, like, we when we do get the draft, I don't think I think there was a rule way back when, like in the 70s, like you couldn't draft players from Canada to American teams or something weird like that for a while.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_04: And then they they finally changed that rule, and that that kind of helped some of the American teams out.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_04: Could you imagine that not being able to draft like Canadian players?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_04: Your team.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_04: Your team would like even now the team just wouldn't be very good.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you'd be you'd be hosed.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_04: Well, because now you could you could draft from Russia or something.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_04: Like back then you couldn't go to Russia or any of the Soviet bloc countries either.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_04: So you were just stuck with like American players in a sport that really, like you said, really wasn't all that popular.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I can't imagine building a team very well if you can't uh draft outside your own territory.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: That'd be like if the Steelers could only draft players from Pitt, you know.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they'd be obviously win the Super Bowl every year.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_04: They'd have Aaron Donald.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's true.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that they they'd have that.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um so so yeah, this Mario Lemu guy obviously uh is is gonna be good.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I I think again, we Steve, you already said you know, hockey and basketball have a lot of comparisons.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_03: I do think those are the two sports you you said it earlier, where you get one guy that's really good, and that can totally turn your franchise around.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I think too that that both of those leagues have like the once-in-a-generation players come along, and you know before they even play one moment in the professional league that they're going to be once in a generation players.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_03: And you mentioned like Shaq and Kobe and LeBron and basketball.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: I think in our lifetime in hockey, by my count, there's been five of these guys in our lifetime in hockey: Wayne Gretzky, Mario Lemieux, Eric Lindross, Sidney Crosby, and Connor McDavid.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_03: I think those are the five players.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you could throw a Vetchkin in there.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but those are the five guys that before they played one second of hockey, they were built as like a once-in-a-generation phenom.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, uh, Lindrass didn't quite live up to that.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh McDavid has been living up to it so far.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: He's he still has a ways to go.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_03: But I mean, all those guys really did become game changers.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so you don't get that often.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: You get that maybe once a decade, and now that's coming in hockey.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_03: So people people know that Mario Lemuse could be one of those generational talents.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_03: And the penguins obviously knew this too.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: But remember, this is before the days of YouTube or the internet.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_03: You weren't going to see highlight reels of this guy.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_03: So it it kind of seems like if you if if if it kind of seems like the penguins know that, yeah, there's this really good Mario Lemieux guy, it would be nice to have him.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: But I'm not sure yet that they realize what a game changer it could be.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: And on January 28th of that 1984 season, the penguins make a road trip to Montreal to play the Canadiens.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so while they're while they're up there, Eddie Johnson, Lou Angotti, and Mike Lang, the Penguins announcer, they decide they're going to take in a Laval game to see this Mario Lemieux kid.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: And they say that when they watch that game, their jaws just hit the floor.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: And Gaudy says the other team is focused solely on trying to stop him, and he still has five breakaways in the game that they saw.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so now Johnston and Gaudi know this kid is cruel to the other horribly.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I don't know, Steve, maybe it's just a matter of you don't really know until you see it.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, they definitely uh wow, five breakaways.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, even like you said, net league, if you would figure they would try and do something, but not in the Quebec Junior League or Major League or whatever it was.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_04: In Quebec, they're having trouble stopping them.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and again, you you had you didn't have uh I I doubt you saw you could turn on the news and see.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I either I I don't ESPN was around, but I doubt they were showing like a terrible amount of like Quebec major.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_04: Like, was there even like like anybody filming anything at this game?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_04: Probably not.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: I mean compare compare that to Connor McDavid a few years ago.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you you you had a million different things you could go watch before Connor McDavid ever got drafted to see what a great player he was.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: There was all kinds of features done, there was all kinds of YouTube videos and things like that.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: And and in 1984, you you really had to go scout him, and that's that's what the penguins do.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: And now, you know, they're convinced that this guy could really be a game changer.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_03: So a few days later, Johnston and Angotti are having breakfast, and Johnson says, Hey, look, this is a loss season.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think we should do whatever it takes to make sure that we end up with Mario Lemieux.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: And there is no lottery at this point in the NHL.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_03: So that means that the Penguins would have to finish dead last in the in the league to be able to draft him.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_03: And Gaudi agrees.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: And Johnson says, look, if we do this, it's probably gonna cost us both our jobs.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: And they're both very principled men, and they believe that that doesn't matter.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's it's this is the right thing to do for the franchise and for the city, and if it cost us our jobs, so be it.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: Which must have been a hard decision to make.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know that I would have made that decision, Steve.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_03: I like to think that I would have, but I don't know that I would have.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, they had to think that the ownership would know enough that, oh, this guy's gonna, you know.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_04: You don't think that the Bartolos knew that, okay, this guy, we need this guy just from a business standpoint, you know, you're gonna get more people in the seats, you know, rather than putting together like a very mediocre team.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: But are you gonna keep the coach around that or the jam around that you know led the team into that?
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: That's the question.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I know the answer to one of those questions.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_03: And at the time they didn't know the answer to any of those, right?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_03: So it's definitely a risk, but again, they believe that it's the right thing to do.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_03: So now, to my to my earlier point about this is not, you can't just intentionally lose and and be obvious about it.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, they they they go about executing this plan and they have to they have to execute a plan that's not that doesn't make it look like they're trying to lose.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_03: One of their first moves is to make a trade.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the the penguins' best player at this time is Randy Carlisle.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: He's the team's captain.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_03: He's a Norris trophy winner, and he's also only 27 years old, which for a defenseman especially means he has a lot of good years left in him.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: The Penguins decide to ship him to the playoff bound Winnipeg Jets, which you know isn't too uncommon.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, it's very common in NHL where you know trade deadline deals are done with teams are out of the playoffs.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_03: But typically, when you make those trades, you get something back.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, what do the Penguins get for their best player?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they get Winnipeg's first round draft choice in 1984.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's not bad.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_03: And the Jets are also offering Mo Mantha, who's a good young player.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, Manha had 54 points for the Jets that season.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's a pretty good score scorer.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: But the Penguins say, no, we'll take the number one pick and quote, a player to be named later.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_03: And they know the player to be named later is Moantha, but they don't want him until after the season is over.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_03: Because if they get Momantha now, they're going to be better.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_03: They don't want to be any better.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: They don't want to be any better.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: And Winnipeg is just fine with that deal.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: They made a trade deadline deal to get Carlisle, and they get to keep Moantha for their playoff run.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: So Winnipeg's fine with that deal.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but that's kind of the first thing that they do that's you know, a little maybe a little shady, player to be named later that they didn't want now.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but that's not enough.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: They still need to get worse.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_03: So they start bringing up players from the minors who were nowhere near ready to play in the NHL.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_03: That 1984 team had 48 different players on the roster.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_03: The goaltender for the Penguins that year, Robert Romano, jokes that guys had to wear name tags in the locker room because they didn't know who each other was.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_03: And as we said before, the players are never really going to be on board with this.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_03: So you're going to have the threat of them potentially playing well because that's what athletes do.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: Even if they're on a bad team, they're still going to try to win.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: And Romano, the goaltender, he actually has a hot streak.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: So he is promptly sent down to the miners.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: And they replace him with a guy named Vincent Tromblay, who, according to Bob Erie, who was also on that team, was a milkman.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_03: He was like delivering milk when they called him up.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I wasn't able to verify that anywhere, but that's what Bob Erie says.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_03: And Gaudy says that this goalie that they called up Tromblay was so bad that he used to keep his glove closed whenever somebody shot the puck at him.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it's like he literally lacked the basic fundamentals of hockey.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_03: And Tromblay loses every start he makes for the Penguins.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_03: He has a 6.0 goals against average.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_03: And he's sent back to the minors after losing four starts and never plays hockey again after that.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: But he does his job.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_03: He picks up a nice little chunk of losses.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: Well, but does he deliver milk after that?
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_03: That job, really.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good question.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: And really after that, the the players are now starting to get a little antsy.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, because again, they don't want to lose, and they start to want they start to wonder like, hey, what's up with these personnel decisions?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: Our goaltender was actually playing okay.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: You sent them down and you brought up the milkman, and we lost four in a row.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: But there's really not much they can do about it, even if they are suspicious.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_03: And the plan is starting to work because the penguins are starting to pile up losses in often spectacular fashion.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: Here's some scores from the second half of that season.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: Uh they played the Red Wings, they lost nine to three.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: They lost nine to two to the Oilers, they lost ten to three to the Calgary, nine to one to the Capitals, and 13 to 4 to the Philadelphia Flyers.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: So they're not just losing, they are getting destroyed.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: Did the Oilers have uh that's the Gretzky Oilers, isn't it?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: That is the Gretzky Oilers, and that's it's surprising that it was only nine to two.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: Because you would thought it would have been like 28 to 0 or something like that.
• 29:49
  unknown: Yeah.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but here's the problem.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, any other year, this this a team this bad would just run away with the worst overall record.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: But in the Penguins' own division, there's a team who is actually worse.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's the aforementioned New Jersey Devils.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, the Devils are historically bad in 1984.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_03: It's the worst team in franchise history.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_03: And in the entire history of the NHL, Steve, only 13 teams have lost more games than the 1984 Devils.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: Let me just repeat that.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: In the entire history of the league, only 13 teams have lost more games than the 1984 New Jersey.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think the NHL is over 100 years, right?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:33
  unknown: Oh.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: So now you're not just competing against yourselves and trying to make your team worse.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_03: You're literally trying to beat out a team that was historically awful.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: He waits, he throws the pass, and it's interesting.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_05: Don't throw him out of the 40! 35-30.
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• 31:02
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• 31:05
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• 31:16
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• 31:43
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• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: So now Dawson and Gaudy are fighting against that.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_03: They're fighting against the integrity of the league, the anger of their own players.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: The Penguins have 21 games left in their season, and they're really going to have to shell out to lose as many of those as possible and pass up the Devils.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_04: We're making them play the Oilers some more.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: Can we just schedule them every night?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_03: The Penguins have put together this awful roster, but there's still games where they're competitive.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: So Angotti has to start making coaching like mistakes on purpose.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh So he does things like roll out fourth-line players against the other team's top lines.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_03: He also puts random players on the penalty kill rather than the guys who actually practice that together.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, you have a penalty kill unit that you you run to practice to kill penalties, but when they would get penalties, he'd be like, uh no, no, I think I'm going to send out these three guys instead, or these four guys instead.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_03: And they wouldn't have ever practiced that.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he sits his starting goaltender in a game that they're winning.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: Can you imagine that?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, oh, he pulled him?
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: He pulled him, yeah.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my god.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, we're up three to nothing.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you can change a goaltender.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and and and the players are literally yelling at Angotti during games.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like they think he's senile.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what are you doing?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like, it and I can imagine, Steve, can you just imagine being a player?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: Imagine you're you're in a game and your team's up and you see him pull the goaltender, or you see him put random guys out on the penalty kill.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: I just can't imagine the reaction if you're an athlete.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_04: I yeah, I would I can I thank God this wasn't on TV or like now.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_04: People would like, oh my gosh, it would be impossible to do this.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_04: Because like somebody would notice, like, like he said, you're up like a couple goals, and it's like, I'm gonna put my backup goalie in.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_04: He needs some work.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good point, Steve.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't think about that.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_03: Is you didn't have the hyper focus of sports period, the 24-7 coverage, but then in Pittsburgh, you didn't have uh as big of a fan base either.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: I think those two things combine to make this easier to pull off than it would be today.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and Gaudi does say that this all becomes incredibly stressful because it goes against everything he is as as a coach.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you're a coach, right?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_03: So to go out there and pull your goaltender in a in a in a lead or or put the wrong guys on the ice and make it look like an accident.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, that's if you're if your job as a coach, it just goes against everything you're you're trained to do.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_03: And he says, quote, the players were trying to go out and win, and I was using them to lose.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's really starting to get to Angotty.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and you know, it just trying to pull off this ruse that and not making it too obvious, although to your point, Steve, isn't it kind of obvious at this point?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_03: Meanwhile, in New Jersey, the Devils also continue to stack losses, but their coach, Tom McVee, is a guy who's real old school, and he's not gonna lose on purpose in order to get a high draft pick.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: He says later, I hey, I was paid to do a job, the fans are paying to see a team that tries to win, and so I'm gonna try to coach to a win each and every night.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_03: Now, is he just saying that in hindsight, knowing that they didn't end up with Mario Lemieux?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe, but it at least seems genuine.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_03: And it's really not just the coach.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, because you figure if the New Jersey Devils as an organization really wanted to tank, and their head coach is like, no, we uh we gotta win no matter what.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they could have just fired him midseason or replaced him with some stooge that they knew would lose.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's I think it's really just I think that they probably I the Devils were probably just a real bad team.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: I I don't think they were trying to lose, I think they were just bad.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: And there's even a website, we'll link it on our website called hockeygraphs.com, that did a bunch of statistical analysis showing how the Devils were really just a bad team all season, but how the Penguins were statistically more of a middle-of-the-pack team until that second half of the season, until that January uh back-to-back losses against the Devils and then the road trip to see Mario.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_03: After that point, they they kind of show how the Penguins really went into the tank statistically, whereas the Devils were kind of more consistently bad all season.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: So even though they had just a putrid team that year, there's really not a lot of evidence that New Jersey tried to lose on purpose.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_03: And one guy that you could potentially thank for that, ironically, is Wayne Gretzky.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: So before we get to that story, just a little history on the Devils franchise.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: They begin to play in 1975 as an expansion team called the Kansas City Scouts.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_03: And they're not very good.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: No one Kansas City's coming to the game.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: So they move to Denver and renamed themselves as the Colorado Rockies.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: But things don't go a whole lot better in Denver either.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_03: They play baseball.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, not the baseball team.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_03: There was a hockey team there called the Colorado Rockies first.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: Uh they move again.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_03: This time they move to East Rutherford, New Jersey, and they're renamed again as the Devils.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_03: And even that move is fraught with controversy because the other teams in that area, the Rangers, Islanders, and Flyers, don't want them there.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: And in fact, the Devils are forced to financially compensate those three other franchises for infringing on their territory.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_03: So in 1984, the the New Jersey Devils are a very more brown, more bound NHL franchise, right?
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they they never really had a home, uh, and and they're and they're real bad.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: And there's a game way back at the very beginning of this season where the Devils are in Edmonton playing, as you as you mentioned, Steve, that that dynasty Oiler team.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_03: And and as expected, they're just getting destroyed, right?
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: And the final score of that game is 13 to 4.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_03: The Gretzky and the Oilers just destroy them.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: And you'd think Gretzky'd be happy about that.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: He has a hat trick in that game.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_03: It gets a pretty easy win.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: He can probably just kind of like relax the whole third period.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_03: But after the game, he's actually pretty pissed off because the New Jersey goaltender in that night is a guy named Ron Lowe, who is a friend of Gretzky's and a former teammate.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_03: And after the game, Gretzky talks about how he feels sorry for Lowe, and he says this quote, it got to the point where it wasn't even funny.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's about time they got their act together.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_03: They're ruining the whole league.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: They better stop running a Mickey Mouse organization and put somebody on the ice.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: End quote.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_04: Well, if anybody knows how to run a Mickey Mouse organization, it's Wayne Gretzky.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_04: Ask the Arizona Cardinals or Arizona Coyotes, sorry, Cardinals.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_04: I think he ran the Cardinals football team.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, I that's kind of ironic that he said that and then the way look at the way he's run, like, you know, the franchises, boy.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_04: Karma.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good point.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't think about that.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but yeah, that was his comment after this blowout against the Devils that season.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: And that that sets off just a huge firestorm in New Jersey.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: The fans are irate.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: The Devils come out and demand an apology, which Gretzky actually does, in fact, issue an apology for that statement.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_03: And when the Oilers come to New Jersey a few months later, the game is actually a sellout.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: And the fans all show up wearing Mickey Mouse ears just so they can boo Gretzky.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_04: Are you really sure this isn't the slapshot movie?
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_04: Did they all did they all just start fighting at the drop of the puck?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's like, geez.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_03: Well, and and I just have to wonder, Steve, I mean, their pride took such a hit from that comment.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, here you have the face of the league calling them a Mickey Mouse organization, and and they're pushing back so hard against that narrative to the point where they're demanding apologies and their fans are showing up uh for a sellout, which is probably rare for that for them that season.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_03: After all that, are they really going to tank the season?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_03: And prove prove Wayne Gretzky right?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like you have to wonder if Gretzky hadn't made those comments, if they would have made the same decision midseason that the Penguins made.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_04: Um you think it motivated them?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, or if they or if they tank, you know, if they start losing on purpose, then Wayne Gretzky was right all along, and they are a Mickey Mouse organization.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_03: Well.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: And they and they came out and demanded he apologize, and he did.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: Like they they made a big stink about it.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: Like, we are not a Mickey Mouse.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: We try every, you know, we're trying our best and everything.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like at that point, you know.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_04: I wonder why after the nine to like two win, he didn't call the penguins a Mickey Mouse organization.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: I I think because again, that's why I get kind of gave that history about Kansas City and Denver, because they just they their their whole history was just fraught with you know being an organization that never really stayed in one place, never really put a good product on the ice.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: I think at least the penguins, like I said earlier, had some good teams before that.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe that's the context there for Gretzky saying all that.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: Also, the the Penguins didn't have his buddy playing goaltender, so that also didn't didn't help.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_04: If they had Ron Lowe, I mean I bet Ron Lowe kept his glove open at least.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_04: He knew enough that way.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_04: But you know what Ron Lowe didn't know how to do?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_04: Deliver milk.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_03: He probably would have stunk as a milkman.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: Probably.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I just think that's interesting.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: I I just do.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_03: I wonder if Wayne Gretzky is responsible for the Penguins getting Mario Lemieux.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's an interesting thing to ponder.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh there's a key game in March at the Brendan Byrne Arena in New Jersey between the Penguins and Devils.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_03: So uh at this point in the season, both teams are so bad that they've already pretty much clinched the top two spots in the draft.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_03: In fact, the media is calling this game in March the Lemieux Bowl.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_03: And if the Penguins win, they'll be tied with New Jersey in the standings.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_03: But if they lose, they'll be a full four points, four points behind.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_03: So that's kind of a big game.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_03: And Jersey has the lead late in this game, but the penguins score a couple of goals in the final minutes and almost fall off a victory, which Johnston and Angotti had to be sweating that one out.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_03: But fortunately, the Devils win.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: And after that game, Devils president Bob Boutra accuses the Penguins of not trying to win.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_03: And as far as I can tell, this is the first instance of someone in the National Hockey League or anywhere really publicly accusing the Penguins of tanking.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I wonder if he's again, he's the president of the devil.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I wonder if he's doing that because he wants to try to do to the penguins what Gretzky did to his team.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_03: Right?
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like put this public pressure on them.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: And Angotti puts on quite a show after the game.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_03: He he paces back and forth.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: He drops all these expletives about the devil's president and says he's a disgrace and he has no class.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Angotti also says that you know, that's that's a heck of a thing for him to say after the Gretzky thing.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: And and of course, Angotti is saying all this, knowing full well that you know he is actually trying to lose.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh but he can't say that, and he has to look like it's really upsetting him that the devil's president would how dare he say that about us.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_04: Hey, where's the milkman again?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_04: You know, let's call him up.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'll show you we're trying to win.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_03: Let's get the the closed glove guy back.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_04: How do you coach that goalie, like open your glove to catch the fuck up?
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_05: Who doesn't know that?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I don't know if that was like a a nervous tick kind of thing.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like someone shot the puck and he just kind of like instinctively closed his hand like to brace for it.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: I I I just you're right.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_03: Basic fundamentals.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: Uh that that tactic doesn't really work though, probably because Bob Boutre is not Wayne Gretzky.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_03: Nobody really cares if he's the president of a terrible team in New Jersey is accusing the Penguins of tanking.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_03: So again, that no one really thinks twice about that, fortunately.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_03: So down the stretch, the Penguins keep tugging along with bad call-ups and intentionally bad coaching.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_03: There's a game where they're playing the New York Rangers and they have a three-to-one lead after the first period.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: And Eddie Johnson comes into the locker room in the intermission and freaks out on Angotti.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_03: He's like, What are you doing?
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_03: We're up three to one.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: You have to reverse this.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: And sure enough, the Penguins lose six to three that night.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: So whatever, whatever uh adjustments that Angotti made, that he made sure that they lost.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_04: He told the goaltender to keep his glove closed.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_04: You want to knock the puck down with your glove.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_04: Don't catch it.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_04: Just take the goal, just take the goaltender out.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_05: I'm surprised they didn't do that.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna play with six guys the rest of the way.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_03: But we're winning by two.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: We mentioned that the Penguins had that stretch of 21 games left.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_03: They only win three of them.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_03: So mission accomplished.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: In the end, the Devils finished the season with 17 wins, and the Penguins finished the season with 16 wins.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: Three points behind them in the standings.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_03: Only eight teams in NHL history have lost more games than the 1984 Penguins.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_03: That team only won seven home games all season.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_03: And they were outscored by 136 goals over the course of the season.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_04: So this was an 80-game season, correct?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_04: So if you if you were a penguin season ticket holder that year, you saw seven wins out of 33 if you went to every out of out of 41, actually.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yep.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_04: Impressive.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: Again, I mean, you couldn't have done it worse, and that was what they were trying to do.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_03: So again, they they pulled it off, and by the end of the season, they're they're bad.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: They're historically bad.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_03: They had to be historically bad to beat the other historically bad team.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: And they did it.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_03: So what's the aftermath of all this?
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well, on June 9th, 1984, this happens.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: I now declare these proceedings open.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: I believe we are ready for our first election.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: The first order of claim is Pittsburgh.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: Pittsburgh, the premier schwann in Pittsburgh number Swiss Marion MU.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_03: I love the very formal declaration I perceive.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's like, who cares?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_04: It's like I declare these games open.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's like this is like, you know, this is an NHL draft, not a meeting of Congress.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but in Canada, it's got the same level of importance, I guess.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: Probably more people watch that than Canadian Parliament.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_03: So of course, uh the Penguins select Mary Olemie with their number one draft pick in 1984.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_03: How does that turn out?
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Mary Olimie becomes one of the greatest hockey players of all time.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: He wins two Stanley Cups as a player, he wins three more as an owner.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_03: He saves the team from bankruptcy in 1999.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_03: He gets a new arena built in Pittsburgh.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_03: Today, the Penguins are one of the premier franchises in all of sports, so much so that in 2021, the Fenway Sports Group agrees to pay close to one billion, that's billion with a B, to buy the Penguins from Lemieux.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_03: Lemieux has created millions of dollars worth of cancer research, the children's home, the A10 Cardiovascular Institute, the Austin's Playrooms.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_03: You'd be hard-pressed to walk into a hospital in this town and not see Mario Lemieux's fingerprints all over the place.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'd argue, Steve, that there's not one person who has done more for the city than Lemieux, other than maybe Andrew Carnegie.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_03: And Mario didn't need to slaughter a bunch of striking steel workers to get that accomplished.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_04: Number one, that was Henry Clay Frick.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_04: And he does have a park named after him, even then.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_04: I think Carnegie still owned the steel.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_04: He did.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_04: He sold them after that.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_04: He was so horrified by that he sold the company.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_03: He was he was in, I believe he was in Europe at the time.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_03: But it was his company.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he didn't.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I think he literally, like, he was so disgusted by that he sold the company.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_04: But be that as it may, it's weird how like uh the ripple effect, you know, like if Lemieux doesn't come to town, does all this other like besides the penguins being here and everybody joining them and enjoying that and all the Stanley Cups, you know, I mean five Stanley Cups later and all the revenue, not just the revenue just for the arena and the workers, but look at like the hospitals and all the children that have benefited from the cancer research and treatment.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I guess you could say, well, they would have had them anyway, maybe, maybe not.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe people have to go out of town or people that wouldn't have been able to get you know timely medical care.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_04: So and the playrooms are pretty cool if you've ever like been to like children's hospital, they're pretty neat.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_04: So um just like you said, I mean, Carnegie has the libraries, uh, Mario has uh you know the cancer and uh not he well he had cancer, but he has the you know cancer institutes and the uh playrooms and uh and he did I guess when his son was sick he came up with that because they didn't have playrooms in there.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_04: But yeah, it's pretty pretty pretty interesting ripple effect when you think about it and how many people's lives were effective for the better just because you know we lost to the New Jersey Devils.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_03: That that's that's exactly right.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_03: It it would be an interesting, like it's a wonderful life kind of scenario.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_03: Like what would have happened if if if if Angotti and Johnson don't put their jobs on the line to lose games on purpose and really go full blast to lose games on purpose, right?
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe maybe they could have been like, well, okay, let's maybe trade away you know Rainey Carlisle, but not do a whole lot else.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_03: And and the devils were just so bad that it wouldn't have worked.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: They really had to go all out.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_03: And and like you said, what what happens?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: What what you know Mario never comes to Pittsburgh.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_03: That changes so many lives in this town.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: And and it just, like you said, a huge ripple effect.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_04: I it's good good for us.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_04: Uh it sucks to be New Jersey, I guess.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know, I don't know.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, let's talk about New Jersey.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Tom McVee is the Devils coach in 1991 when Mario and the Penguins eliminate them from the playoffs on their way to their first Stanley Cup.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_03: McVee says he has seen people recognize him in public and say, there goes the SOB who cost us Lemieux.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_03: So uh people still hold that against Tom McVee.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: But don't feel too sorry for the Devils.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_03: They do end up building a dynasty of their own, and they win three Stanley Cups in the 1990s and early 2000s.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_03: So things work out.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_03: Not too bad for them either.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Eddie Johnston is the general manager for a few more years.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_03: Then he goes to Hartford and subsequently trades the Penguins, Ron Francis, and Alf Samuelson, which helps them win that first Stanley Cup.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_03: Then he comes back to the Penguins to serve in various roles in the 90s and 2000s.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_03: He announces his retirement after the Penguins win the Stanley Cup in 2009.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and I kind of forgot he he was part of that organization even that late.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Johnston's widely lauded as an integral part of Penguins history.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_03: Lou Angotti, unfortunately, is not really lauded uh in the same way.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_03: He's moved into a scouting role after that 1984 season, and he never coaches again.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_03: He actually becomes a stockbroker, and by all accounts, he has a pretty successful career doing that.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but in terms of hockey, he he he's never able to coach again, and he passes away in 2021.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_03: To this day, Eddie Johnston will never admit that the Penguins tanked on purpose.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_03: He he sort of denies it, but then he'll say cryptic things like, Well, we did what was in the best interest of the team.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_03: So he won't he won't like flat out deny it, but he he won't admit to it either.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: Angotti, on the other hand, was always brutally honest.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, we tanked.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and he in and most of the stories come from Angotti because he wasn't afraid to just kind of say, Yep, we did all that on purpose.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_03: So what you folks listening, and Steve all pose a question to you, you know, what do you think?
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_03: Was it right?
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_03: Was it wrong?
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_03: Was it somewhere in between?
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's the question is like, like I think the devil's coach said it, you know, you're kind of like screwed over the people.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_04: Like I said, if you were a penguin season ticket holder that year, you paid your money to go see a team, and you know, I know you pay to be entertained, but it's entertaining to see a team at least put together an effort and try.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_04: So like I could see like you being pretty irritated that you only got to see seven wins out of 40 games.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's that's pretty bad.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_04: And the fact that like, you know, you just oh yeah, this guy, he's doing pretty well.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like who was who's the one goalie was doing pretty well?
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, oh, let's get rid of him.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, why?
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_04: Why did you uh I I think that's obviously why the leagues have gone to the lottery system.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I I'm surprised more football teams don't do it because there isn't a run uh like lottery system.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_04: But maybe they're like I mean the Dolphins, you know, according to you know Brian Flores tried it, but I mean I I just don't I think it doesn't you know you're you're trying to sell tickets too.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_04: Like how can you survive till next year if you're so bad this year too, you know?
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_04: Right?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_04: You're gonna call I mean but I mean they did have like you know, I'm sure attendance went up the next year when Mario came to town.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, I mean it it's it's you're gonna have to break a few omelets or sorry, break a few eggs to make the omelet, right?
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, you know, the season ticket holders got hosed, a lot of the current players got hosed, and then Angotti really sacrificed his career as a head coach.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_04: Bob Barry.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_04: Bob Barry has had a long career since then.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, it didn't wasn't all bad.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, some players came out of it okay, and then they had Lemieux as a teammate, and that obviously things got better after that.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_03: So but but you're right, it's it's you know, uh it's hard to say that um, oh yeah, totally acceptable, totally justifiable given the outcome, um, because because people were hurt in the process, you know, and careers were potentially potentially damaged, and definitely fans were ripped off.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_03: But the long-term, you know, we talked about just that whole ripple effect, right?
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: The long-term effect of that, you know, and and it's easy to say that too.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_03: What if Mario Lamy would have been a bust?
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_03: Or what if he would have hurt his knee in the first season, right?
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_03: And and you know what I mean?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, so it wasn't a guaranteed for sure.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_04: You know, he could have like had a career where he did not want a Stanley Cup, you know.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_04: It took him it took him like what, they didn't make the playoffs till 89.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, even when they got Lemieux, it took them six years to yeah, five or six years to make to even make the playoffs, and it took them another what year or two to even have success in the playoffs.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_04: So I I just it's weird, like I guess that team was that bad.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I don't know.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe the coach was bad too.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like, who they had?
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_04: They had like Rick Kehoe and people like that.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like they really didn't have success until they got Badger Bob and they picked up those couple, but they did have good players like before Badger Bob, they had like what Cullen and you know, yeah, Robbie Brown.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_03: Robbie Brown and Tom Brasso, yeah.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, they they they they did finally put it all together.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_03: But again, like like even we talked about like those those five guys, Eric Lindras.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he had a Hall of Fame career.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_03: They he's in the Hall of Fame, but you know, by all accounts, he was mostly a disappointment.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_03: He never led Philadelphia to to win anything, the championship of any kind.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_04: I think they made a final with him, didn't they?
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, in ninety seven they made the finals against the the Red Wings.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: But but I mean, mostly that was a disappointment.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_03: So even if Mario was that, even if he would have had a good Hall of Fame career, but the Penguins never really win anything, you know, I I I just it's it's I think it's easier to say, yeah, that was the right thing to do, and and Gaudi and Johnston are heroes because of all the stuff we said, not just like you said, Steve, not just the five Stanley Cups, but just the lives that were affected for the better, the the the hospital stuff.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_03: The you know, these are these are literally like lives that potentially were saved because of what these two guys did in 1984.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I don't know.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it is it is a weird ripple effect.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_04: And thank God they didn't have a uh lottery back.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_04: Although the penguins lucked out again then with Sid, they you know, they sent uh Craig Patrick in there and they got they got the number one player again.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_04: And you always hear that you hear that compare like complaint from like the Maple Leafs and other things, like teams that can't get it together, like, oh well the penguins got lucky, they drafted well.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_04: It's like, yeah, but you still have to like build a team around them, yeah.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_03: Well, yeah, I mean that that's exactly right.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it it was fortunate both time, it was fortunate for Crosby, but here I mean, they just intentionally played themselves into it because there wasn't you didn't have that element of chance, you didn't have the lottery, and and that's why you have a lottery today, because they want to avoid something like this ever happening again, and so it can happen again, but it did happen in 1984, and it's I just think it's it's a pretty interesting story.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_04: Well, too, it like it shows like if you keep being mediocre, like it's kind of current for less the current state they're in.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_04: Do you like you know get really bad so that you can get high draft picks and get get good again?
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_04: Or do you just kind of like pull like you know a Philadelphia Flyers who always seem to like not make it to the playoffs or barely make the playoffs and they're kind of like eh, not really rebuilding yet.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_03: So and and even if you wanted to do that, Steve, even if you wanted to go from like mediocre or first-round playoff losses to like really bad, it's not easy to do.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: And you're gonna lose your fan base, part of your fan base in the process and the enthusiasm your fan base has.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_03: So that only works if you get the shore fire, turn everything around, win championships kind of die.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_03: And and like we said, that's never guaranteed.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, don't I mean I don't know.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_04: I I wouldn't tank.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_04: But hey, it worked out for the penguins.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that that's definitely a ballsy move.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_03: There there would be no penguins today if if this had to happen.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, seriously.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_03: That's that's a guarantee.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_03: There would be no penguins today.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_03: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that uh journey down memory lane.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, as always, uh, you can catch us on our website or on social media on Facebook or Twitter.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you can email the show.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh all those links are in the show notes.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_03: And we will catch you next time.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.