Latest / Bite Me The Show About Edibles / Thriving with Cannabis: The Ultimate Guide to Mindful Consumption with Amanda Reiman

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Thriving with Cannabis: The Ultimate Guide to Mindful Consumption with Amanda Reiman · Bite Me The Show About Edibles

• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: What happens when you take a love of food, a passion for culture, and a deep knowledge of cannabis and you toss them all into one bowl?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: You get bite me, the podcast that explores the intersection of food, culture, and cannabis and helps cooks make great edibles at home.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Margaret, a certified gangier, a TCI certified cannabis educator, and I believe your kitchen is the best dispensary you'll ever have.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Together we'll explore the stories, the science, and the sheer joy of making safe, effective, and unforgettable edibles at home.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: So preheat your oven and get ready for a great episode.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let's dive in.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: Today I am joined by past podcast guest Amanda Ryman.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Amanda appeared on the show in 2021 on an episode called Callie Sober, where we talked about using cannabis for harm reduction.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Today we touch on that topic, but also dive into our changing relationship with cannabis, effectively using tolerance breaks, finding your minimum effective dose, mindful consumption, and a whole lot more.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Amanda has been involved in research around cannabis, social justice as it relates to prohibition and public health for a long time.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it was tough to put a time limit on this conversation.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So without making you wait any longer, please enjoy this conversation with Amanda Ryman.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: All right, and we're live.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Amanda, I am so happy that you decided to join me today on Bite Me the Show about Adibles.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: And for those who have been a little bit newer to the show, you were a past podcast guest some years ago now.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: We'll touch on that a little bit later.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: But for those who are unfamiliar with you and your work, can you just tell the listeners of ByteMe a little bit about yourself and your cannabis journey?
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I've been involved in cannabis since 1998 as an activist and since 2002 as a researcher.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm originally from the Midwest and I moved to Oakland, California in 2002 to start the PhD program at Berkeley and Social Welfare.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: I was already a medical cannabis patient uh back then, even though we didn't have medical cannabis in Chicago.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: I uh had been using cannabis therapeutically for quite some time and really wasn't aware of what was going on in California, especially the Bay Area around medical cannabis.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Remember, these are very early internet days, which I know it's hard for some folks to imagine, but we didn't have information at our fingertips at any given time.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: So understanding what was actually happening out in California, I was pretty far removed from that.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was very interested in the social justice aspects of drug prohibition, being a social worker and understanding the racial disparities and arrests and in sentencing and the impact that criminal justice involvement can have on somebody's life.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: I really went to Berkeley to study the drug war and to understand more about how social work intersected with drug prohibition.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: Moving out to the Bay Area, I saw this medical cannabis revolution happening.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: There were dispensaries, uh, there were products available that I'd never seen before.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like the early dispensaries were a really amazing model of community health service provision.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, being born out of the HIV AIDS movement, a lot of early dispensaries really were talking about and facilitating alternative health options for their customers more than just selling cannabis.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I felt, you know what, as this becomes more of an industry, we might lose some of that.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we might lose some of that activism, lose some of that community-mindedness.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know what healthcare looks like.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: I go to Walgreens to pick up a prescription.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: They're not offering me open mic and free, fresh food and uh chiropractic care.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're having me stand in a line, they're giving me my medicine, and I'm leaving.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I decided to do a research study on the way that these early dispensaries were operating as health service providers.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that really kicked off my career in cannabis.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so I did that study for my dissertation in 2005, 2006.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I discovered doing that research was that a lot of cannabis patients were using cannabis in harm reduction.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: They were using it as a substitute for prescription drugs, they were using it as a substitute for alcohol and other illicit substances.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so I really started to dive deep into the public health aspects of using cannabis.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, being a cannabis consumer myself and somebody that was always a very heavy consumer, I was very interested in people like me.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was interested in folks that were using cannabis multiple times a day, that were still holding a job and taking care of families and being good citizens, and really were not representing the stigma that we so often saw associated with cannabis use.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then as I got older and got into my 40s, I noticed that my relationship with cannabis was changing and that my tolerance wasn't what it used to be, and that I couldn't just use as much as I wanted without any negative effects.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that really awakened in me a need to really think about what does healthy, balanced cannabis use look like?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was doing that mostly for my own purposes, but also starting to hear from more and more folks, colleagues of mine in the industry, peers of mine in research who were saying, you know, that's me too.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I used to consume a lot of cannabis.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's not giving me the same thing it used to, and I want to reevaluate what that relationship looks like.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I really took away from all of that is that, you know, on one side we have activism, which is very important, but for reasons we can get into or not, uh activists feel very defensive about talking about potential harms and risks associated with cannabis use for good reason.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then on the other side, we have the prohibitionists and a lot of the public health researchers who are saying, you know, it's full of risk and there is no healthy use and it isn't a medicine.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I found what was really lacking was that middle voice that talks about moderation, that talks about risk and benefits, that talks about ways to have relationships with cannabis that is mindful and that is healthy.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's really where I've kind of come out of this 25 years of working in this field as thinking about as we move forward with legalization, with unprecedented access to a variety of cannabis products, it makes sense for us to have that mindful relationship from the get-go because we see what happens when we don't.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I look at things like food and the food industry and what that's done to our health, having access to every food we could ever want at our fingertips at a reasonable price without teaching people about healthy, moderate consumption has not dust any done us any favors in terms of public health.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a been a bit about my arc in the industry and in the cannabis space.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say at the heart of it, I'm a public health researcher, I'm a social worker, and my job is to really connect the dots.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: I love all of that.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it sounds like obviously you bring so much experience to this conversation, which is which is why I wanted to have you back on.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the dispensaries you're talking about that you first studied back in the day, those dispensaries are almost more like lounges, if I recall correctly.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Were they a little more like a place where you could go and spend some time instead of the dispensaries that I know of, where I am right here, is like you walk in, you buy your stuff, and then you leave.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, there was on-site consumption, it was a huge part of early dispensaries.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And this really goes into before they were dispensaries.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: So the first dispensaries were really people's houses in San Francisco where mostly AIDS uh patients would gather uh to use cannabis.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it was partially because they couldn't use where they lived.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Cannabis was illegal, and it was partially because of the social and community isolation that happened when somebody had HIV AIDS.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, for folks that are not alive during that time, there was a lot of misunderstanding about how HIV was spread.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a belief that it was spread kind of like COVID, that you could get it from being near someone, from breathing on someone, from coughing on someone.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so, because of that, people that had HIV or AIDS were very socially isolated.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: They were isolated from their families, they were isolated from their employment, they were isolated from their greater community, and they found community in cannabis.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: So giving people a space not only to use cannabis as a medicine, but to come together as a community was very crucial in those early dispensaries.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so we saw a lot of that happening.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Berkeley Patients Group was one dispensary that was part of my early research.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I ended up then working there as their director of research and patient services.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: And their lounge was kind of like an adult daycare, you know, not to be condescending in that way, but a place where people that really didn't have anywhere else to go during the day, they were disabled, they weren't working, they lived in group housing, or they lived in public housing, um, or even just in apartment buildings, didn't really have a place where they could spend time, where they could learn about cannabis, where they could medicate.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of early dispensaries played this role.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Now, as we started formalizing what cannabis looked like through legalization, a lot of people who are not cannabis consumers did not like on-site consumption.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: They didn't like the idea of the smoke.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they didn't like the idea of people using cannabis and then having to go back or drive back or walk back to the places where they lived.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: They had these really weird ideas that kids would walk by on the sidewalk and somehow a hand would come out of the dispensary and snatch them up and take them inside.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: They had all these really weird ideas about what happened when you had on-site consumption.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And yet we see alcohol bars everywhere.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And nobody seems to have a problem with somebody walking into a bar and having one drink or two drinks and then going on their merry way.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, alcohol bars were developed because they didn't want people drinking on the streets.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: They wanted to have them in a contained spot where you could keep an eye on them, where you could call for help if there was a medical need or a public safety need.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so the fact that public consumption for can or uh safe consumption spaces for cannabis were so immediately discarded by the public was really strange to me.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of early dispensaries did not have that option to have social consumption.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Now in California, if you have a dispensary and your locality allows it, you can apply for a license to have on-site consumption.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: But there's all kinds of rules about it, right?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Where smoking can happen, what type of consumption can happen there.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I think they're slowly starting to come back, but it was something that early dispensaries were able to do because there were no rules.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: There were no rules saying you could do it, and there were no rules saying you couldn't do it.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so, out of necessity and need of the community, a lot of them, the early ones did allow that.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it's interesting you mention all that because it sounds like the dispensaries almost serve the function of a third space for a lot of people.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I do feel like those consumption spaces are really lacking because it does give you that opportunity to build community around the plant.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you just don't really see that.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see that where I am personally.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it's kind of a shame that it's gone the direction it has, maybe a little bit.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: But also when you're talking about the bars and their function, how similar it is in some respects, like where I am too, you can like a child can be in a bar as long as before like 9 p.m.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: or something like that.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then I guess that's when people get too rowdy for the children.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: But like when you talk about somebody worrying about somebody grabbing a kid off the street to have them sit around all these people smoking cannabis, and yet you can bring a kid into a bar.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's just uh it's odd that the way that they treat one versus the other.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, you know, that's simply the result of decades of propaganda.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, propaganda is defined as changing people's opinions or establishing an opinion through emotion, and it's very hard to change.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: When somebody just feels in their gut that something is wrong, it's much harder to change than when somebody just feels in their brain that something is wrong.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: And cannabis is really ingrained into propaganda.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, besides the community piece, there's a really big public safety piece around using cannabis for the first time and wanting to be around people that are gonna be able to give you support.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we do not suggest to naive consumers that they just consume an edible sitting by themselves in their house because if they have a bad reaction or they have questions, who are they gonna ask?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when you are at a social consumption lounge, you're able to get advice about how to consume properly.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a negative effect, you have people there that can help walk you through it.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: You have access to water, you have access to healthcare, should you need it?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that this is really important, especially as we have more naive consumers, canacurious folks coming in, and they're not smoking.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: So they are choosing methods of ingestion that could carry higher risk because of set onset, because of potency.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think, you know, in addition to giving people a place to consume, it's a public safety issue as well to allow for social consumption spaces.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: And something else you touched on too, which I'm very curious about, is you mentioned how your consumption has changed over the years.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I personally find I feel like my tolerance has been going down and not increasing, despite the fact that I'm still consuming pretty much every day.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: So is that a thing?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's totally a thing.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, and I, and this is not, I don't know if there's research to back this up because, you know, our research on cannabis and human beings is so limited, especially women.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, cannabis and our endocannabinoid system work together to maintain homeostasis in our bodies.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And over time, our bodies change, and what is needed to maintain that homeostasis changes.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: And for women, it especially changes because we have hormones and all of that going on as well.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, as we get older, our tolerance to intoxicating substances in general tends to shift.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we become more sensitive to prescription drugs, we become more sensitive to alcohol.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it stands to reason we'd be more sensitive to cannabis.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: But I always like to think of it also as my ECS may need something different as a middle-aged woman, as it did when I was a younger woman.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that could be reflected in how it tolerates cannabis.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, when you're introducing cannabinoids from the plant, it is taking up some of the space of cannabinoids that are being produced by the body.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's possible as I get older, maybe my ECS is producing more cannabinoids to make up for the fact that my hormones are out of balance.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: If as women, we start to experience hormone imbalance when we reach our 40s, our ECS may be through the years of evolution designed to ramp up production of certain endocannabinoids to meet that challenge.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it could be that that, plus introducing phytocannabinoids from the plant, could overload our system in a way that it doesn't do when we're younger.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I find a lot of women reporting that, that as they get older, their tolerance for cannabis has actually gone down, that not only do they need less cannabis in order to achieve the same effect, but they have more adverse effects from cannabis when they did when they were younger.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: So they're more prone to anxiety, they're more prone to dizziness, they're more prone to rapid heartbeat, which are kind of the three main adverse effects that people report from cannabis.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it really could be because the way that our endocannabinoid systems are reacting to our aging and the imbalance that may be happening in our bodies.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad to hear that it's not just me.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not alone.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's not just you.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're listening or watching this and you're like, oh my gosh, that's me, it's not just you.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, thankfully, there are companies out there that are introducing lower dose products, that are introducing products that have a balance of cannabinoids and other beneficial herbs, realizing that you get to a certain age and maybe you don't want a 50 milligram edible that's just THC.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know, maybe you need something that's gentler, maybe you need something that's offered in combination with other herbs that are also medicinal in order to give you the effect you want and not just relying strictly on that THC.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would find I find too that using a lot more CBD these days really helps to sort of level out that THC.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And my tolerance for edibles has definitely gone down and not up.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've noticed it quite a lot recently.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I find it surprising, but it also makes sense.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, this is this a phenomenon that would apply to most people as they age, or do you find it more pronounced in women because of the shift that you go through, like the hormonal shift of menopause?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, again, anecdotally, I have found it more in women.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've heard it more from women uh that they are noticing that their tolerance is changing.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, my I'm I'm 49, my partner's 54.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: He smokes cannabis all every day, you know, multiple times a day.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And his tolerance has not changed at all.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, my tolerance has gone, you know, when I was in my 30s, I was a, you know, 100 milligram THC edible go-to-the-gym type of gal.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I never really thought, oh, this is gonna be too much, or I should make sure I don't consume too much.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, now 10 milligrams is kind of at the limit of where I can be, and five milligrams is most comfortable for me.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, this did happen after taking a three-month break completely from cannabis, but it started before then.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: The reason I took the break was because I was like, you know, I got to figure out what the next phase of my relationship with cannabis is, because it isn't just highly functioning on very high doses.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's not who I am anymore.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so who am I in relation to cannabis?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I, you know, took a three-month break completely.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I came back to it, I was like, all right, let's figure out what makes me feel good.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, let's not hold myself to some kind of standard of my what my consumption used to be.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: I stopped smoking completely.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I didn't want to smoke anymore.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I was noticing like impacts on my skin from being a smoker for so long.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe you don't notice those things when you're younger, but when you get older, you start noticing.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was noticing impacts on my gums and my teeth.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know, maybe smoking just isn't the right method for me anymore.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I love edibles, I love tinctures, I love beverages.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it was really figuring out what is that right dose for me now and kind of throwing out my history as this very high tolerance, high-level consumer.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So when you said after that tolerance break, then what was your strategy for reintroducing some of these things?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Did you just start at a really low dose and work your way up to see?
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because 100 milligrams for most people would knock them on their ass.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: It would knock me on my ass at my highest tolerance whenever, you know, it's gone down, like you said, as well.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I've never been able to consume 100 milligrams.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_01: So well, no, it definitely is, you know, the adage of start low, go slow.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, that's great for anybody, especially newer people or people who are coming back to it.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that I did start with 10 milligram edible.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually think it was 420 with my mom who's visiting me.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, wow, I'm really high off of this 10 milligrams.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it was pleasurable, but it was also kind of like, well, I'm kind of at the limit.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wouldn't want any more of this.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the other thing I noticed was that I didn't feel compelled to consume every day.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: I when I took my break, it was partially because I felt like I was having a relationship with cannabis that needed reevaluating, but it was actually also because I realized I wasn't enjoying it as much anymore.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, at this point, I had been a multiple times a day consumer for over 20 years.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know, I feel like I'm doing it just because I do it and not because it's intentional.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: And almost like scrolling on your phone.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you're not doing it because you're like, oh, I got to see what's on there.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're doing it because your brain is like, I need a distraction, I need something to look at.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I almost felt like my cannabis consumption had become very habitual, where it was like I was sitting in front of the TV and watching something, and like I had realized that I had smoked like three bowls and I hadn't even really thought about it.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, you know, I'm just not, I'm not enjoying it.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't feel really high.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I get a little burst of euphoria right after I consume, but it's gone pretty quick.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so I said, you know, I just feel like my body needs a reset.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when we really inundate our systems with phytocannabinoids, with cannabinoids from the plant, our ECS kind of takes a vacation.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, why would it need to produce anandamide and other endocannabinoids when you're supplementing that from the plant?
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, you know, I think my ECS needs a chance to route rub up again and to do its thing.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so I felt like taking that break was not only to reduce my tolerance, but it was to rediscover my enjoyment of the plant and not have it be a regular thing that I felt like I had to do multiple times a day.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the travel, it was like I would, you know, I travel a lot for work and it would be like, all right, what am I gonna bring with me and where am I gonna consume it?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, it was a job to make sure that I had candles, just like it's a job to make sure I have coffee in the morning.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so not having that and feeling like, oh, you know, I'm going out of town for a week and I don't even need to bring cannabis with me, or maybe I just need to throw a few gummies in my bag, uh, was actually very freeing.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it continues to be very freeing.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that approach of having a more balanced relationship with cannabis, no matter what stage of your cannabis journey you're in, is really important.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: And for those who might be interested in exploring this a bit more, what how would you suggest that they start to put this into practice themselves?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first I say take a break.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I mean, really your tolerance drops pretty quickly.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a regular consumer or you're somebody that uses cannabis as medicine, so I do want to make a differentiation.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: If you're somebody that has a disease or symptoms where you are using cannabis as a medicine, so whether that's PTSD, whether that's Crohn's disease, whether that's symptoms related to a treatment for chemo with chemotherapy or some other treatment, you may not be able to stop using cannabis.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Just like if you're diabetic, you're not going to stop using your insulin.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there are some folks where cannabis is a necessary part of their day in order to keep symptoms at bay, in order to treat their disease, and they may not be interested in getting high.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: They are there because the cannabinoids are feeding their system in a way that is preventing their symptoms from happening.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: For those folks, stick with what's working for you.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: If using cannabis every day is working for you at a certain dose to keep your seizures at bay, keep doing that, right?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: That is not most of us.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Most of us are using cannabis for relaxation, for wellness, to help with sleep, but we don't have insomnia.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, when you get older, you have trouble sleeping, uh, for minor aches and pains, uh, for boredom, instead of alcohol.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is why a lot of us are using cannabis.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: So if that is you, I suggest taking a break and not just a weekend break, but like a good break.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like I said, I took three months.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: I recommend at minimum 28 days.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we know from the literature on drug use that 28 days is kind of the length of time to change a habit.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So taking 28 days off completely from cannabis and then reintroducing it as a mindful activity.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And what I mean when I say that is before you consume, think about why you're consuming in that moment.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, why am I consuming right now?
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, is it because I'm about to go watch this movie and I want to have, you know, some cannabis on board for this movie?
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is it because I have had trouble sleeping these last couple nights and I really need to get a good night's sleep tonight?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is it because I've had a really stressful day at work and I don't want to reach for a beer and I'd rather have cannabis?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, whatever that reason is, there's no right or wrong reason, right?
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: So, mindful consumption is awareness without judgment.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: So don't think I want to use cannabis because I've had a really hard day at work, and then think that's not a good enough reason.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever your reason is, it's good enough, but just think about it.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: So think about why you want to consume it.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Think about what your goals are for consuming it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Find what we call your minimum effective dose, which is the smallest amount you can consume and still get the effect you want.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're looking at an edible, start with five milligrams.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you can find something nano emulsified and fast acting, all the better, because you're gonna know sooner if you need to take more.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Take that dose and then pay attention to how it makes you feel.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like really tune in.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: How am I feeling?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Am I getting do I feel the way I want to feel?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do I feel too much?
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Do I not feel enough?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then adjust that dose based on whether you achieved what you wanted to achieve.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: Now, folks may be listening saying that sounds like a whole lot of work.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it will come faster than you think.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think that that's really how you get back to having that good relationship with the cannabis plant, where you are thinking about what do I want it to do for me?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: How much should I take in order to achieve that?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: Have I achieved that?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then feeling the effect.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that you're gonna need it every day.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not that you're gonna need it multiple times a day.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: But when you do want it, have it.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: But just think about it and be mindful of it.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the the concept of mindful consumption because I think we hear this a lot these days, and people might not be too aware of what that means.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I think just the that idea of awareness of paying attention is something that we overlook a lot, just collectively.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm guilty of it.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you are too.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody I know, we just go through these phases we're so, I guess, in our heads about the world and what we have to do for work and like our personal lives and all this stuff that we just don't pay attention to those little things like, why am I consuming this edible or smoking this joint right now or whatever the case is?
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you're saying that mindful consumption is that awareness without judgment, which I think is also really important that you touched on because we're also very good at judging ourselves.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: We are, and and and and you know, on that about judging yourself, it's not all our fault that we are consuming things mindlessly.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Our culture of marketing and capitalism and buying things is designed for us to make mindless decisions.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: That is what it's counting on, right?
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's counting on us going into Amazon and putting a bunch of things in the cart and not thinking about it too much.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's counting on us reaching for DoorDash and ordering things that maybe we're not even hungry for, but they sound really good.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's counting on us turning on Netflix and planning on watching one show and then it's five hours later and you're still watching it.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is the mindset that our culture relies on to make money from us.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not our fault.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: We are conditioned to do that.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that if I can apply mindfulness in one area, it definitely bleeds into other areas of my life.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, cannabis is something that thankfully the industry has not gotten to the point where it is really encouraging mindless consumption.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: So, and we don't have commercials for it all over the place, and we don't have the same kind of marketing that we have for other commodities.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, it is a great opportunity to practice mindful consumption and then let it expand into other areas of your life of eating, of watching TV, of looking on your phone, of online shopping.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like it can impact these other areas if we kind of start with thinking about what mindful consumption means in relation to cannabis.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'm glad you bring that up too, because I mean the consumption is also amplified when you just pair it with all the things you talked about because it's so convenient.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can order something with Amazon one click and have it shipped to your door in like a day.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, you don't really think about it.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: So that consumption plus the convenience just makes it even more difficult to overcome.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and also you mentioned that like we have the opportunity because we just don't have the same marketing in cannabis like we do with every other industry, especially alcohol.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe despite some of the complaints that we hear from perhaps.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Some LPs and the rest of them, that maybe that's not necessarily a bad thing to have public safety first.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: And people know about cannabis.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, like when you, you know, when you have alcohol ads, a lot of it is to say buy our brand versus somebody else's brand.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that there are ways to introduce that with cannabis without having it be just flashed on your screen and on your computer and on your phone for brands to differentiate themselves.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: We are in a time of unprecedented access to cannabis.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, cannabis has been around for thousands of years.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: We have never had access like we have now to a variety of products, including very high potency products.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I understand that the industry needs to survive.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And in order to survive, they need to sell products.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Every industry is like that.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so you hear the alcohol industry and the fast food industry and even the cannabis industry to tell you to eat, drink, consume responsibly, but you don't hear them say eat, drink, consume less.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: No, because they have stuff to sell.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna go with alcohol, it's still good.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, they have stuff to sell.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I get that.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I totally understand that.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so what that means is that it's up to us as the consumer to say, I'm gonna consume moderately, right?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna order a smaller meal.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm only gonna buy one thing because they're not gonna do it.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's gonna be on us to do that.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that is challenging too, just because we don't, I mean, it's hard to stand up as an individual against an entire industry who's saying mindful consumption, not mindful consumption, but what you mentioned earlier or just a second ago about you know, consume responsibly, but not necessarily consume less because they're never gonna say that to you.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: Now you also have a platform called Personal Plants, which you talk about a lot of these issues on that platform.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't, I'm trying to think, I don't think you had started that platform maybe by the last time that we talked on this show.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Can you share some of the experiences that you've had through personal plants that have shaped your helped shaped your journey so far?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I founded personal plants.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was probably pretty new the last time I came on the show.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's been through a couple of iterations.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I have been a home cultivator for over 20 years.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love growing my own cannabis.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a great way to develop that mindful relationship with the plant, just like growing your own food, right?
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's something about that connection that I think is really important.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I started Personal Plants really to figure out how do I encourage these healthy connections and relationships to the plant so that cannabis doesn't become just another commodity that we just buy in bulk at the store and consume without thinking about it.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think cannabis is better than that.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: I think it deserves more respect than that.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so I started Personal Plants to really think about how do we develop these plant human relationships in ways that encourage healthy consumption.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: And over the years, what I realized was that there was a real need for a platform that brings in that middle voice that I talked about earlier.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: That, you know, I am a huge advocate for removing criminal penalties around cannabis use and sales.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: I do not think anybody should be engaged or involved in the criminal justice system around cannabis.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I, whatever that looks like, depending on the country or the state that you're in, we don't have a lot of control on that because that's really going to reflect how states and countries decide to regulate intoxicating products.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: But we should, it should not be in the criminal justice system.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I fully believe that.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, okay, so now we have access to it, we have legal access to it.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: What does that mean in terms of really helping people understand not only the benefits, but the potential risks of using cannabis and developing that healthy relationship?
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And as I mentioned, we have had this real black and white thinking around it.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: We've had cannabis cures everything, there's no such thing as dependence, there's no such thing as overdose, you know, everybody should use it, grow it like tomatoes, right?
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: We have that plant that camp.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have the cannabis is a gateway drug, it's highly addictive, it's a terrible narcotic, nobody should ever use it.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: You should go to jail if you use it.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: We have that camp.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And for a long time, those are the only two camps that existed.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And like I said, I don't really blame the activist camp for downplaying the risk because when they came forward and we came forward as activists and said, well, yes, you can become dependent on cannabis.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: This other side would be like, see, see, even the activists say that it's addictive.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And it was really hard to move policy forward.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I get why these two camps emerged, but I feel like in a post-legalization world, we need to bring reality.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality is that both camps are right about some things and both camps are wrong about some things.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to use personal plants as a place to not only help people understand kind of how we got where we are and why these opinions exist and why misinformation is still really common, but also a space to hear the truth, right?
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: To hear that, yes, cannabis is for anybody, but not for everybody.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: That certain people shouldn't use cannabis, that there are certain risks to using cannabis, but there's also a lot of benefits.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: That there is way, there are ways to uh ingest cannabis mindfully and healthfully, but not every way we ingest cannabis is mindful and healthy.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I wanted to use personal plans as a place where people could go and kind of wade through the noise and just get the information that they need to have a good relationship with cannabis.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's really what this is about.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if we want to see legalization continue forever, and we want to see access to cannabis continue forever and not go back the other direction, we have a responsibility to educate ourselves and to use the plant in a healthy way.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I love that approach too, because you're totally right that you know, there's there are the people out there who think cannabis is a panacea for all things that ails you and all the rest of the things that you mentioned.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: And having that research-backed middle ground, I think is really important.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I was gonna ask you a little bit, be even though I know you mentioned before we did this show that you're not producing new episodes anymore, but on the Personal Plants website, you have a show that you co-host called The Truth About the Plant.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I've listened to some episodes, it's fantastic.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're 20-minute episodes, so really easy to slip into that podcasting rotation, or it's on root YouTube as well.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you cover a huge range of topics that would be of interest to a lot of people who are looking to explore that, you know, mindful consumption and changing their relationship with the plant.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: One episode that did catch my eye was things I wish I'd known about cannabis before I guess I started using it.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Can was there anything that you recall that that stood out to you, things that you wish you knew about cannabis before you started consuming?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think, you know, back when I started consuming cannabis, it was illegal.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it was very hard to get.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: So you had to call, you know, I I like to used to tell my students, you know, it's kind of like the walking uphill in the snow to school both ways story.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: We didn't have cell phones.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we had house phones, we had pagers, maybe.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you had to call someone and they called someone, and then you had to wait by the phone until they called you back and said whether they had something for you or not.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: And whatever they had, that's what you got.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: There was no choice.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: There definitely was no edibles or vape pens or any of the beverages or any of these other products.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't really know a lot about cannabis when I started consuming it.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I grew up in the Dare generation.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: We were not taught any valuable information about cannabis in school.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we were taught that it was dangerous, that it was on par with heroin, that it would you become addicted, that it was a gateway drug and just don't do it.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't really know a lot about cannabis before I started consuming it.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: So if there were some things I wish I had known, um, you know, one is that smoking cannabis is not risk-free.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of rhetoric that just because smoking cannabis doesn't cause lung cancer, that it's completely safe.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not true.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it's not as dangerous as smoking cigarettes or smoking cigars or smoking a tobacco product, but you're still inhaling hot plant matter into your lungs.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there are risks associated with it.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if I had thought more about that at the beginning, I would have diversified my consumption early on.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was always a smoker because it was fast onset, it was convenient.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I think really understanding the risk and benefit of that method of consumption would have been important.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I wish I also understood the relationship between using cannabis and the endocannabinoid system a little bit better.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: You know, as I mentioned before, your endocannabinoid system isn't going to keep producing endocannabinoids as long as it's getting what it needs from the plant.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so for those of you out there that might decide to take a break, you might experience what is kind of in a meta sense known as withdrawals.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's not the same as withdrawals on alcohol or opiates or other things, but you may experience trouble sleeping, loss of appetite, moodiness.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: And this is because when you stop bringing cannabinoids in from the plant, your endocannabinoid system doesn't just start up again, right?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like starting a cold car.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like and so it takes your endocannabinoid system, sometimes a week, sometimes two weeks, to say, oh, that the word happened to all the cannabinoids.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: I better start, you know, ramping up production again, and then it will, and then those symptoms will go away.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I didn't really understand that when I spent all those years getting my cannabinoids from the plant, that I may have been stifling the function of my own endocannabinoid system.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the things I love about where I'm at with cannabis now is that even though I still use cannabis, I know that my ECS is running smoothly.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now, something else that we could touch on, or I'll just throw it out as a footnote.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is some research to suggest that not everybody's endocannabinoid system works the same way.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we know that, but that some people's endocannabinoid systems may be deficient, meaning that whether they use cannabis or not from the plant, their ECS is never going to produce cannabinoids at the level they need in order to maintain balance, or that their endocannabinoid receptors, for whatever reason, are not fitting well with their endocannabinoids.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not producing the effect that it needs in order to maintain that balance.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: And we refer to this as endocannabinoid deficiency syndrome.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so there it should be more research done.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: There will be more research done, but it's possible that for some folks, cannabis from the plant is a necessary supplement in order to keep their ECS running smoothly.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: So there's all kinds of nuances between how the ECS functions and how you function when you supplement from the plant, but we shouldn't just consume a bunch of phytocannabinoids and not think that there's going to be an impact on how our ECS functions.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that you also mentioned the withdrawal because a lot of people think that there is no withdrawal from cannabis.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: But as you said, it's very different than other types of withdrawal.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: I've quit smoking cigarettes, and that withdrawal was really shitty.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was not great.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and so yeah, the withdrawal from cannabis is, I mean, for me, maybe I haven't been a super heavy consumer, but I have taken long enough tolerance breaks to know that it's manageable.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe the first few days, it's not a lot of fun.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious if the ECS testing, because I mean, it was prohibited for so long.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we just don't have that medical research behind it yet.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: But the the can you test for deficiencies through like your local doctor?
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I went to my my MD and said I'm feeling deficient and something, like, is there a test for that for somebody?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: No, there is not.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: There is not.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, really the closest we get is looking at kind of mapping of the ECS and the role that the ECS plays and certain diseases and symptoms that seem to be really helped by cannabis.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, one example is Crohn's disease.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we know that we have a lot of endocannabinoid receptors in our gut.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: And for a very long time, I mean, even back to like early Chinese medicine, thousands of years ago, digestive disorders are one of the most common reasons why people used cannabis.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, there's kind of this thought of well, if somebody's ECS, which regulates appetite and digestion, is not functioning properly, it would stand to reason that they would develop symptoms like gut inflammation and other things that we see in some of these digestive disorders, Crohn's, ulcerative colitis, uh, IBS, that cannabis seems to help.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: And could it be that that disease is being caused by dysregulation in the body related to a malfunctioning ECS, to where when you supplement with cannabinoids, it seems to balance it.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is really kind of where we're at.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, there are some tests out there that say that they measure, they do like DNA and kind of measure the functioning of your ECS and look for certain markers, but the ability to take that information and then say, therefore, you need to supplement with this tincture that has this amount of CBD and this amount of THC and this amount of CBC and this terpene in order to balance out your specific issue, we're not really there yet.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we might be able to say you're more likely to develop this condition because of the way your ECS is functioning, but we're really just right now seeing it as like snapshots versus the whole story.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if this is something that you're interested in as a listener, um, Dr.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: Ethan Russo has really pioneered the field of endocannabinoid deficiency syndrome and has some really lovely articles out there about kind of what we know and what we don't around this condition.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's super interesting, especially when you say, could it possibly be some of these, you know, things like Crohn's could be linked directly to a deficiency?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: That would be that's really interesting because that would totally change a lot in the medical field, just period.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: But and probably some more widespread acceptance of cannabis as well, if that was to happen.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: So let's uh if anybody's out there listening that's doing research in that area, keep it up because we need more of that.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you are a guest on Bite Me in 2021, and that in that episode, I called it Cali Sober.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: It could be because we talked about your research on using cannabis as a harm reduction tool, which you've already touched on today, um, as a substitute for drugs and alcohol.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_00: Has your perspective changed at all since 2021 on cannabis and its role in a balanced lifestyle?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Or as a couple tool?
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Not at all.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, more so I'm now seeing cannabis and harm reduction as a two-sided coin.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: So you can definitely use cannabis as a harm reduction tool, meaning as a substitute for alcohol, which we're seeing more and more, especially with these amazing hemp beverages and THC beverages on the market that are fast acting, uh, that are available in grocery stores in states like Minnesota, uh, and the fact that Gen Z's are not as interested in alcohol anymore.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're seeing more and more people using cannabis beverages, especially as a substitute for alcohol.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I absolutely still believe that that is a good way to go.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I also believe that it is a good substitute for some prescription drugs.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I'm not a cannabis or prescription drugs kind of a person.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a cannabis and prescription drugs kind of a person.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think that cannabis can help people use fewer prescription drugs and less dose of a prescription drug.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: But for many people, it's not going to be a complete one-to-one substitute because a lot of prescription drugs fill very specific functions uh in terms of treating symptoms and disease.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I do think it can help people use fewer opiates.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do think it can help people use no ambien or maybe less ambion.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I do think that that is a good harm reduction tool.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: And for people that are trying to move off of harder substances.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now, look, I've never done heroin, so I'm not going to be able to speak to this as an experienced person.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_01: But my guess is that people who have done heroin will say it's not the same thing as smoking a joint.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's not the same experience.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's quite different, actually.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're trying to stop using heroin or cocaine or cannabis can be something that helps quell withdrawals.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it can be something that is used as a psychoactive substitute, even though it's not a one-to-one.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I still very much believe in cannabis is a harm reduction tool.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: The other side of that coin is what we've been talking about on this episode, which is harm reduction within the context of using cannabis.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that there are harm reduction techniques like finding your minimum effective dose, choosing methods of ingestion besides smoking, taking regular tolerance breaks, using mindful consumption.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: These are all ways that we can bring harm reduction into our cannabis use because again, cannabis has fewer risks than a lot of other substances, but it is not risk-free, just like nothing is free.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's both.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think cannabis can be used as a harm reduction tool when it comes to the world of alcohol and prescription drugs and other substances.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: I also think that there are things we can do within our own cannabis use to maximize benefit and reduce risk.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I like that you mentioned that it's a tool, which suggests it's a tool in a toolbox with a whole bunch of other tools that you're using to sort of achieve that aim.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm glad that you pointed that out.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, you mentioned at the top of the show that you're doing some consulting for a company that makes cannabinoids, some consulting generally, but you are doing consulting for a company that makes cannabinoid terpen and botanical infused gummies.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything in particular that excites you about this type of product innovation that's bringing in cannabinoids with other compounds?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like oh, absolutely.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so the the company is called FK Plus.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they do, like you said, um, botanical and cannabinoid and terpene-infused gummies.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: They also do pre-rolls.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, for so long, cannabis has been ostracized from botanical medicine, right?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it didn't used to be that way.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: Cannabis used to be just one of many tools to go back to that analogy in the toolbox of botanical medicine.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: And just like we talk about the entourage effect with cannabinoids and terpenes, there's also an entourage effect with cannabinoids, terpenes, and other botanicals.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that we really weren't allowed to combine them was unfortunate.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when you look at a lot of the state cannabis laws, there are rules about your cannabis product can only have cannabis in it.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: It can't have cannabis and other things.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that this has been a detriment because what we're hearing from consumers is that they're looking for effects-based products.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: They want to consume a product because they want to feel a certain way.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, you have folks that are like, oh, I really like this cultivar, or you know, they kind of get more into the weeds, no pun intended, on what the product is.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: But your average consumer is like, I want this for sleep, I want this for daytime, I want to feel a mild effect, I want to feel a highly euphoric effect.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're looking for some kind of outcome.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it's been really hard to achieve that with terpenes and cannabinoids alone.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yes, you can say, well, this is a more potent THC product, so you're gonna feel a more potent effect.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: Use this at nighttime.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, this has liminine in it, which is an uplifting terpene.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_01: So use this during the day, but it's only been a piece of the puzzle.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: And there are so many other botanicals out there that help contribute to effect.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: So this product is an effects-based product.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's focus, there's energy, there's relax, and there's sleep.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a low-dose cannabinoid product.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's two gummies per package, and each gummy has five milligrams of THC.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, the focus only has 2.5 milligrams of THC per gummy.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_01: It also has terpenes that are there to enhance the effect.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: So the sleep gummy is gonna have linolul in it, the focus and away uh energy gummies are gonna have um are gonna have limanine in them, the relaxed gummy is gonna have Mersine in it.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_01: But then, in addition to that, it has other botanicals that are used to achieve those same effects.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: So the energy one also has green tea and yourba mate in it, and the sleep one also has valerian root and passion flower.
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like you're getting to take advantage of the whole bounty of botanical medicine instead of it just being limited to well, what can we do with THC and CBD?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: It also has minor cannabinoids.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: So the focus one also has THCV, and the sleep one also has CBN.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really, I feel, kind of like the next generation of cannabinoid products, where it's like, okay, great.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: We know THC and CBD and terpenes, they're fantastic.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_01: They have all these therapeutic benefits.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: But what if we also add passion flour?
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: And what if we also add green tea?
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: And what if we also add CBN and CBG?
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like if you're somebody that's that's looking to go beyond just intoxication and really looking at functionality and how do I bring cannabinoids and botanical medicines into my life to help with certain functions that I'm trying to do, this is such a great product for that.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I love like I take the energy one before I work out.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it gives me a great boost.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: I take the relaxed one at the end of the day.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm never laying in bed like jittery because I ended up taking a product that had a terpene in it or a cannabinoid ratio that wasn't fitting what I was trying to accomplish.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: So going back to that mindful consumption, it really helps with that.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm like, all right, what am I trying to achieve?
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I've had a really long day.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_01: I really want to relax.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: This product is gonna help me do that, not just because of the cannabinoids, but because of the other botanicals that are in there.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna consume it mindfully, and then I'm gonna be like, okay, it gave me what I wanted.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think for so many people, it's like they pick a cannabinoid product from a dispensary and it's like, yeah, it gave me like 60% of what I wanted.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: And like that's good enough, unless that 40% is really destructive to me.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: But this product I feel is like a bullseye.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: It really helps you hone in on what your goals are.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I really love the idea of the marriage of these two things.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think we're gonna be seeing more of this as time goes on?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: I hope so.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I am starting to see it more.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely like out here in Washington, we don't have the rules about it can only be cannabis.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I can go to the dispensary and I can get a cannabis gummy that also has lion's mane mushroom in it, and um, ashwaganda and other botanicals.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that people are starting to catch on to that and say, you know, there, and I think it's being driven by the fact that people want effects-based things.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think um companies are starting to think, all right, we know THC or CBD or this terpene causes this effect, but what else can we put in here that's just gonna seal the deal that this is the effect they're gonna get from this product?
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I am seeing it more, and I hope that where it's allowed, we will start to see it more.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in states that currently don't allow it, that they'll start to loosen their regulations or change their regulations to allow for more of these kind of multi-ingredient products.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because that's super interesting too, because cannabis is so regulated and a lot in the natural products category is like really unre-regulated.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of interesting that it's not easier to sort of blend the two things together in some respects.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's coming under the cannabis rules.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like you're not seeing, you're not going to a health food store and seeing like ashwagandha powder now with CBD or now with THC.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to a dispensary and you're seeing here's a highly rec, you know, regulated uh THC product that now has ashwagandha in it.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that product is going to have to say exactly how much is in that of each thing because that's what's required under the regulations.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: In terms of effect, we're still under the kind of really vague, this has not been evaluated by the FDA kind of a thing, which we are with all natural supplements, right?
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there are organizations out there that establish standard operating procedures and standards for the creation of natural products, um, the American Herbal Products Association.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: So they're basically saying, hey, if you're gonna use Ashwagandha, you have to make sure it's prepared this way.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_01: You can't say this or that about it.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is how to make sure that it's safe for consumption.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_01: But they're not gonna say it's gonna cure your anxiety.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: Uh because they can't say that.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: And they can't put that on the packaging.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: So that will stay, regardless of whether it's in the natural product space or in the cannabis space.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's interesting though, because it sounds like almost the can't like uh melding the two together with cannabis almost makes it that the natural food side of things is has to come up to the same standard as cannabis, which is probably just better for consumers at the end of the day.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: It is, and you know, the the American Herbal Products Association actually created standards for cannabis.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, way back in the day, I was on that committee, um, and that must have been like 2008, 2009, maybe, um, because they were like, hey, cannabis is a natural product.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_01: We should have the same testing standards and production standards that we do for all other natural products.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that definitely exists.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a question of where is cannabis going to be available and who regulates that.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh the FDA here in the US kind of took a hands-off approach with CBD and said, we're not gonna regulate that.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's not our job.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: And there's kind of some buck passing back and forth.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what's the moral of that story?
• 59:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, when you see a CBD product on the shelf, you really don't have a lot of confidence that it is what it says it is if you're finding it in the drugstore.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you find that in a dispensary, you know that there are rules that say you have to measure the amount of CBD that's in there, you have to make sure there aren't other contaminants in there.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: You still can't make any health claims.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I tell folks, if they're like, I want to buy a CBD product, I'm like, go to a dispensary because at least then you're gonna be assured that the product you're buying actually has CBD in it.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you buy it off the shelf at a grocery store, you really don't have that assurance.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's that's great.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that people can look for in their dispensaries right now.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be checking myself.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't go to dispensaries too often, but when I do, it's always cool to see the new products coming out.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: But and I know for a long time cannabis here.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when they first wanted to bring out somebody was making like a cannabis infused coffee, like one of those cure egg things or something.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_00: And initially I don't think they could make it because you couldn't combine cannabis with caffeine.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of those things.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I think things have changed since.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, that's kind of an exciting thing to look for, to watch for in the cannabis space coming up.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: So um, one last question I just want to ask you because I want to be mindful of your time today.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like I could pick your brain for hours, but what are you most excited about right now for yourself?
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh gosh, that's a good question.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's Friday, so I'm pretty excited about that.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I'm really excited about research.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that that's where I started.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I started in this field as a researcher.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time, there were so few of us.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: It was such a small community.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_01: And over the years, it's been really difficult to be a researcher in cannabis because the federal funding just isn't.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: There, the Schedule One nature of cannabis, um, doing research with human beings is almost impossible with actual plants.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's really impossible.
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been really tough to be a researcher in cannabis.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: I do feel like, and I'm gonna a caveat, not at the federal level, at the federal level, it's becoming even harder because the research money is drying up even more, especially for things like harm reduction and the therapeutic use of cannabis at the federal level.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing that I am excited about is state-sponsored research.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, several states, including California, have it written into their legalization initiatives that part of the tax revenue goes to fund research.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: And this is something we've never had before.
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: It was like the federal government or nothing.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you could get a private organization to fund your research, but as soon as you did, there were all kinds of accusations about it being biased and all of that.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: So California has initiated several rounds of funding for millions of dollars to go to public universities in California to do research on cannabis.
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_01: And this is really unprecedented.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: And given the restrictions at the federal level, I am so glad that these programs exist because otherwise, research would really come to a halt.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Canada is a different story.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: They do fund research in Canada.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I have a grant proposal out right now to the state of California that is a partnership with the University of Waterloo to continue some research that they're doing.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what really excites me right now is the fact that we don't have to rely on the federal government anymore to fund our research, that we are starting to see research institutes pop up at universities like Berkeley, um, you know, like Harvard, um, you know, even my alma mater University of Illinois, Chicago, has a cannabis research center.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, like being able to see the progress in research regardless of the federal stance is really exciting.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_00: And as we all know, research is what keeps pushing things forward, and there's so much more to learn.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like we know a lot, but there's so much more to learn.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, Amanda, I just want to say thank you for your time today.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: You are obviously incredibly informative, and I really appreciate the work that you're doing out there in the world and for sharing some of that knowledge with the listeners that bite me.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, my pleasure.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, me, um, I'm happy to come on again, and maybe we don't need to wait four years.
• 1:03:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that would be great.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: I trust that you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did, friends.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: I will include the links of where to find Amanda and personal plants along with our previous conversation in the show notes.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: Please share this episode with someone as curious about cannabis as you are.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: Join us at the Bite Me Cannabis Club.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: And until next time, my friends, stay curious and stay high.